Thursday, January 3, 2013

FBI Statistics On Murder Weapons


According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs  outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.
FBI numbers:
In 2005, 445 murders by rifles. 
               605 Murders committed by hammers/clubs.

 In 2006,  438 murders by rifle, 
 618  murders hammers and clubs  618.
  
 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle 
            there was 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.

 According to the FBI, nearly twice as many people are killed by hands and fists each year than are killed by murderers who use rifles.

92 comments:

Hobnob said...

In the coming year, obama will demand everyone either hands in their hands or insist on everyone wearing safety mittens with a short string so you only have one hand to use and even then your length is limited to being able to scratch your left earlobe.

Justme said...

LOL Hobnob.

Justme said...

It would be interesting to see the totals if all the other murder weapons were listed. Vehicles, drugs, antifreeze, kitchen knives, bathtubs, bombs, McDonald's, pillows, matches, gasoline, to name a few. Time to do some house cleaning.

Anonymous said...

What about the more relevant statistic- handguns?

Mouse74 said...

Cars are the number one killer of children....but not sure about all ages together.

Hobnob: Hilarious!

Trigger said...

Mouse74 said,

"Cars are the number on killer of children"

That sounds reasonable.

I know that people also use cars as murder weapons when they feel the need for honor killing, revenge killing, cop killing, and intimate partner killing...etc.





Justme said...

@ Anon 4:15 Valid and relevant point.

Firearms are by far used the most often.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

It doesn't mean that there would be less murders. Where there's a will there's a way. If you could actually confiscate all the fire arms, and that's not possible, I would expect bombs would become the weapons of choice for mass murder and knives for personal murders.

Trigger said...

Does President Obama have men with firearms protecting him?

Yes.

Then why shouldn't law abiding tax payers have the same protections that they allow their president to have?

Why shouldn't taxpayers and law abiding citizens have the same rights as their President?

Oops, I forgot, there are two sets of laws in America. One set for the rich/elite and one set for everyone else.

Sus said...

I could swear since 2005 the FBI does not divide by weapon, only percent...which makes your statistics skewed. The latest data as far as I know is the following:

2010: homicides
Firearms...67.5%
Knives and other cutting instruments...13.1%
Personal weapons (hands, feet, fists, etc)...5.8%
Unknown or other ...13.6%

The FBI divided by number from 1976 to 2005. In 2005 hommicides by handgun...8478; other gun...2868; knife...2147; blunt object ...671...other weapon...2528.

The CDC and the ATF keep stats on types of weapons used and deaths caused by those weapons, but sorry...because of the strong lobbying by the NRA, laws were passed, and you are not allowed to see them.

Justme said...

Total Total
Murders Firearms
California 1,790 1,220
Texas 1,089 699

Just thought this was an interesting comparison. What does it mean?

Justme said...

Oops

California:
Total Murders 1790
Total murders by firearms 1220

Texas:
Total Murders 1089
Total murders by firearms 699

Sus said...

The President of the United States has legitimate threats made against him. He and his family are in danger, proven by past assassinations and attempts at such. The people guarding him and his family are trained in using a gun. They also have background checks and psychological testing to make sure they are worthy of that task.

Of all arguments for the necessity of carrying a gun, I have trouble with yours, Trigger. You are not the first person I've heard it from. Why are people so scared? When did the government become the enemy? And why in the world would more violence solve the problem?

Think about it...not so long ago anyone who protested against the government was a radical, a damn hippie. And they better not take up a weapon to do so!

Now it's the right wing leading the charge! More guns! I can see who makes a profit from selling guns to street gangs...punks who all think they need an AK-14. Guns have replaced drugs as gang currency. Then you all think you need a gun for protection...more profit for the manufacturers. Oh, there's more. Then play up the big bad government coming to take away your guns...the answer? Why...buy more guns!

This paranoia is lining the pockets of gun manufacturers and they dont seem to care who it is killing. People need to work on inner peace. I'm off my soap box now. Thank you.

Lemon said...

Let us not forget the deadly and devilish legume, having fallen into irresponsible hands, renders the holder homicidal to those with an arachis hypogaea allergy.

Hence, stop irresponsible peanut ownership!
Ban all peanuts now!

dadgum said...

Outlaw swimming pools/ Public pools have proper fencing, security, emergency access, and lifeguards. The numbers there are shocking..

Sus said...

That's good, Lemon and Dadgum. When you get done making fun of ways people can die, stop to think of this: There are people (one of them I love very much) who spend every day trying to ensure you don't get shot with a gun. These people don't even know you, but they leave their families and risk their lives for you. Put a price tag on that. I think laws should help them out.

Justme said...

Sus, let me ask a serious question. How would you keep the guns out of the hands of the criminals? Do you have a workable plan to do that?

Anonymous said...

Good posts Sus. Excellent.

Hobnobs, not so cute. What's your beef with Obama anyhow? You don't even live in this country.

Instigator? Enjoy. You just did a good job at it.

Lemon said...

Safety Mittens©!

Sus said...

Justme, Is that a trick question? Lol. Criminals are not to have guns, but in actuality the laws are not tight enough to keep them from them. Few people understand how the gun manufacturers use the NRA to rile up the masses and keep politicians in line. The politicians then vote down laws which make it difficult for a criminal to get a gun. They also tie the hands of the agency in charge of getting guns from felons...the ATF.

My answer then:
...Appoint a permanent ATF director
...No straw purchasing
...Close gunshow and online loopholes
...National gun registry (repeal Tiahrt Amendment so there is a database of gun sales.)
...Assault weapon and extended magazine ban

I have personal feelings about "stand your ground" and "conceal and carry" but I suppose they have nothing to do with criminals...just people's warmongering attitude.


Justme said...

No, it wasn't meant to be a trick question. I don't understand how you would stop the illegal importation or acquisition of guns. Prohibition or legislation never works, not for alcohol, drugs, murder, abortion, gambling. It just drives them underground. Why would this work any better with guns.

How do you answer the point that only the law-abiding citizens would register their guns and obey the laws?

Again, it's not a trick question.

Apple said...

I wrote this earlier but it did not post:
"Safety mittens with a short string" made me laugh out loud.
Sus, I have great respect for our military and public servants, both armed with weapons and medicinal knowledge, that care for our citizens. But what about the NY "The Journal News" who thought it relevant during the Sandy Hook massacre times to post addresses of gun bearing citizens? Once they felt threatened from their publication, what did they do? Hired armed security guards.
I know there are people who think peace comes by passing strict laws. However, when an unpermitted gun yielding criminal breaks into my home, I intend to protect my family. My one year old will not become a victim to a drug money seeking criminal.
I agree that assault weapons should be reserved for the military. Right to bear arms? That's not for my government to take away. Not unless they can ensure no criminal activity.

Justme said...

In anticipation of a question you might ask, I have to say no, I would not do away with laws. They are there to prosecute offenders which I fully support. Laws obviously don't prevent crime.

Anonymous said...

we have the right to bear arms and defend ourselves.

it amazes me how people use the example of the chinese man who stabbed a bunch of school age children and didn't kill them.

what about the nanny in NY who stabbed two children in her care to death?

and I want to know what kind of horrible husbands and fathers are these that don't have a gun in their home and wouldn't defend their wives and children against a home intruder?

What? Are you just going to stand there while some stranger rapes you wife at gunpoint?

Sus said...

I was kidding abt the trick question. Of course, criminals will try to break the law...it's circular...that's why they are criminals. That's no reason to not try. We don't tell motorists to drive on any side of the road they wish.

The criminal may not care either way, but right now a seller online or at a gunshow can legally sell that gun to him. Criminalize that so the felon will have a harder time getting the gun. Outlaw certain guns and bullets so firearms industries won't find a profit in making them. Come on...who needs a "copkiller bullet" which is perfectly legal to buy right now!?!? Imprison and fine someone who purchases a gun for a felon. The people who are getting guns to criminals are not paying the price...make them and you have cut off at least some of the gun supply.

Justme said...

My main point is that laws don't prevent crime. People of good intentions don't need laws and people of evil intention don't heed laws. Wow a poet and didn't know it but catchy don't you think? :)

If I weren't afraid of being flagged for my internet search, I bet I could go online now and find a way to make your own gun. My son-in-law says it's in a book he owns. There's the dark net that can't be monitored or controlled where guns can be obtained and anything from how to make a bomb to child pornography can be found. there's no progress or hope of \ controlling the underground activities. Like it or not, we, not our government, have to protect ourselves and our children as far as it is within our power to do so and limiting the means to do that is counterproductive.

Justme said...

It wasn't until the police got to Sandy Hook with more guns than he had, that Adam Lanza shot and killed himself. Otherwise he would have continued the massacre. I wish the teachers that used their bodies to shield the children had at least had a chance to fire a round and have a chance of saving even one life. And if he hadn't used a gun, it would have been a bomb. He was intent on mass murder that day, one way or the other.

dadgum said...

Not making fun..2 boys drowned in a winter pond near here, people in the river and lakes..my neighbor's grandson who fell in while riding his trike around the pool. I sat in the PICU one SoCal summer with an infant in a coma after heart surgery, watching the drowned toddlers arrive, and leave to institutional care.
The most heartbreaking was a beautiful 2yr old. She looked perfect. She had fallen in an above ground pool at the sitter's. Her mom had chosen someone 3 blocks closer, over her better judgement. We cleared the unit as she held her little girl for her last moments. The mother's wailing is something I've not forgotten in 31 years. My son was just fine eventually, has 2 girls, and is an amazing person.
I don't own a gun, a pool, or a harpoon.
We are protected every day by those in uniform from evildoers of all stripes. Not just those with guns. People will always find a way to express their evil, whatever the weapon.
Try taking away the guns of police..they won't have it. Why? They know criminals will find a way.
CIA/SS are tested for mental stability not because of their weapons, but their proximity to the president, whoever he may be.

dadgum said...

justme..a single shot zip gun can be made by a 12 year old..

Justme said...

And if we could get rid of all the guns in the country you have have a level playing field and whoever comes up with the next deadliest weapon wins, whether that is swords, cannons, knives, bows and arrows. It isn't only the President that has legitimate threats against him, it is the abused wife or girlfriend, the single woman living alone, law abiding citizens living in a crime-ridden neighborhood, children in a classroom, movie theater patrons. Unless we can have armed security for each and everyone one of us, we have to be able to at least have a chance to defend ourselves if we so choose and the need should arise.

Justme said...

Or a zip gun :)

Sus said...

Haha justme, you are a poet. I am sure you could find how to make a gun online...sick. You'd be surprised how well "they" watch the internet. I got called once for looking up an off beat religion that a student's father belonged to. I guess they are a radical gang...whoa. I got a phone call...from my loved one I mentioned earlier...from his workplace...to get off that site!! Hmmph!

Jazzie said...

For Sus:

The bell tolls.
Each name of the fallen read
lest each breath be forgotten.
The silence in between each name
holds sorrow in eternity
while others
laugh and live.
The bell tolls.
Innocence fallen.
Love crushed under the weight of snow
and metal.
The bell tolls.
Again.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/on-air/as-seen-on/184429091.html

I am a lone voice from CT.

Sus said...

Jazzie,
Here in Illinois an assault weapon ban and limit to 10 bullet magazine came out of committee. I don't think it will pass the Senate, tho. The NRA and other gun groups went to work against it. And at least three gun manufacturers threatened to pull out of our state taking their blood money with them.

They don't seem to care about the baby girl shot to death as she lay in her crib...through the wall in a drive-by shooting...in Peoria.

Or the dozens shot every night in the streets of Chicago...some in gang retaliations, some in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I was so hoping Illinois would lead in showing we don't need guns. That we can do this. "We are better than this."

The one thing I know, Jazzie, the answers are all within. Don't fear looking inside.

Anonymous said...

The world's largest army is America 's hunters.

A blogger added up the deer license sales in just a handful of states and arrived at the following conclusion:

There are over 600,000 hunters in the state of Wisconsin. That is the eighth largest army in the world. It is larger than that of France and Germany combined. These men were in the single state of Wisconsin to hunt with firearms and no one was killed.

There are 750,000 hunters in Pennsylvania and 700,000 in Michigan. There are 250,000 in West Virginia. The hunters in those four states alone could comprise the largest army in the world. Add the other 46 states and that is millions of hunters.

Wonder why all enemies, foreign and domestic want to see the populous disarmed?

When gun control is next considered, what army would want to face 30 to 50 million armed citizens.

Anonymous said...

Where did you get these statistics, what is your source of info? Post source and authentic link please?

Why would you post statistics like this other than to incite controversy over our lax, almost non-existant gun control laws? Does this mean random gun murders aren't so bad after all, in your opinion? Are you a memeber of the NRA?

So are you saying that it's alright for sicko killers and gang members to run around killing innocents with assault rifles and other high powered weapons since other means of murder outweighs killings by gun?

What exactly are you saying and what's your point?

Anonymous said...

You are not a lone voice, Jazzie.

Anonymous said...

Something enforceable MUST be done to maximize gun safety control laws to protect citizens in this country from the many who would shoot dead in a moment anyone while in a rage, or anyone they randomly selected, however difficult it may be.

Let's take just for a moment the lives of our police officers who also are private citizens. Everytime they put on their uniform and get in their auto they put their life on the line. They are subject to driveby shootings; they cannot stand on a street corner without fear of being shot down; they cannot walk down the street or into a coffee shop, other business, or patrol the malls without fear of being shot down. They cannot respond to a break-in or robbery or answer a call to a domestic dispute without fear of being shot down.

They cannot appear in court as a witness without fear of retaliation from the offender when the offender gets his/her chance, or that some other criminal will show up at their home and shoot dead their family, or that they might have their spouse trailed and shot.

They live a life of fear every day of their lives. It is sad how they have to live. I was stopped once on a minor traffic violation and as the officer approached my drivers side window, I reached to open my glove campartmnent to be ready to show my registration. He said, what are you doing? I said, getting my registration. He said, stop right there and open your passenger side window. I did, but said why? He said, because I don't know what you have in there.

He walked to the other side of the car, with one hand on his holster as he bent down and looked in. I saw the fear in his eyes. He said, now get it, which I did. Poor man, just trying to do his job. He had actually been afraid that I might reach for a pistol in my glove compartment.

It is SO past time that we do everything we can to help protect those who are trying to protect us in any way we can; and this is just one example as to how so many live daily. Just imagine those who work in retail stores whose lives are risked daily as they try to make a living. It has become so bad that I am always on guard even when I walk into a convenience store, always eyeing those around me. It IS frightenig and we MUST do something.

Anonymous said...

I am a gun owner and guns make it easier to kill. That is the truth. The existence of a gun can make people more likely to attempt to commit a crime. It makes it easier to carry out the crime. I will always admit that because a gun is a tool to kill.
I just want gun rights advocates to acknowledge the simple fact that access to guns increases the homicide rate.
Some type of tighter gun control is needed and we need to have a productive ideas on preventing the unstable from getting guns in their hands.

And the government is not going to radically ban all guns. That is just illogical thinking and not based in reality. But the NRA may want you to believe it so it can make money off the increased gun sales and of course the paranoia crazies believe it hook, line, and sinker.

I would like to ask anyone who really believes the stupid tag line guns don't kill people, people do...would you actually stand in front of a parent who lost their child at Sandy Hook and tell them this? Would you argue with that parent and defend your right to own an automatic weapon? I somehow doubt it.

Dee said...

January 3, 2013 11:09 PM...Jazzie said...I am a lone voice from CT.

You are not alone in your pain. I am also in CT. My son, a Volunteer Firefighter, attended the funeral of Daniel Barden, 7 years old, who wanted to be a firefighter like his FDNY uncles. So much pain, so many senselessly lost.
What you wrote is as beautifully haunting as were those bells tolling in remembrance that Friday.
God Bless.

Sus said...

To the anon giving hunter stats : according to the Fish and Wildlife Service, there were 13.7 million hunters in 2010. Get real...none of them are forming militias against our enemies from within or without. They are hunting game for the most part.

My main worries are two-fold. One, firearms and by-products being sold to the general public were originally made for war. Their purpose is still to kill people. No hunter needs a bullet that rips through a bullet-proof vest and tears through the body, ripping up organs. The Bushmaster was designed for soldiers in Vietnam who couldn't hit their target. Now gang members can drive by and sweep the sidewalk, or a mentally deranged young man can clear a classroom.

Second, it seems the need to own guns has risen parallel to a paranoia of "others out to get me", maybe even others want to take from me. It doesn't affect me if someone on welfare buys a candybar, but I sure do read it bothers some others. Violent crime has decreased, but Americans believe they should defend themselves even more. I have to wonder if we are fighting an invisible enemy...one we created.

Anonymous said...

Agreed!

Tricia

Hobnob said...

Obama is a DORK!I hate his small penis.

Anonymous said...

@ hobnob your probably not sucking properly.

Lemon said...

If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words.

Anonymous said...

An abuse shouldn't take away a use. We don't chop all mens penises off because some men rape.We don't take away everyone's drivers liscence because some drive drunk.

Anonymous said...

That is not hobnobs language,plus no profile picture

Trigger said...

Sus,
I've had death threats and been the recipient of violent acts.

I've hired bodyguards with firearms to protect me from those threats.

Those bodyguards were very effective as they were off-duty police officers.

I have gun training and a shotgun for home security. I don't intend to be a target for a violent law-breaker ever again.

Trigger said...

To Sus,

How dare you imply the the U.S. government is my enemy?

How dare you imply that my life is not as valuable as Mr. Obama's life is and that the threats against my life are not as important as his.

Anonymous said...

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/seasonreport.pdf

http://onthenorthriver.com/2012/01/04/doug-the-worlds-largest-army/

I find it somewhat ironic that the largest user of automatic weapons against civilians has been the U.S. government.

To date, the largest killer of small children by automatic weapons has been the U.S. government. Under the Clinton administration, automatic weapons and tanks were used by the ATF to kill 85 people in Waco, Texas. More recently the Obama administration sold assault weapons to the drug cartels in Mexico which were then used against law enforcement.

Sus said...

Wow! I have a lot of comments to answer...I'm obviously public enemy number one on here. I'll go backwards:

Please read your history and don't just listen to right wing propoganda. Waco and "selling guns to Mexico" are perfect examples of distortions and scare tactics.

First Waco : The ATF tried to serve a warrent on the compound and were fired upon. Three agents were killed. The Justice Dept. and FBI then took over the operation. After a month long siege and worries of mass suicide, THE FBI launched a raid.

Arizona has the most lax gun laws in the U.S. It is estimated approximatly 2000 guns per day get slipped across the border to Mexico. President Obama's administration did not SELL guns to runners who then took them across the border. The ATF did not SELL those guns. A legit dealer SOLD those guns. It was ATF's call on where the guns were going and whether to let them walk. Bad call! But they did not sell them.

Anonymous said...

Sus, you are not my enemy, nor am I yours. I agree with every comment you've made and very few, if any, of the others. Scattered about, maybe one or two.

The fact is, you seem to be the only one here whose even knowledgeable as it concerns accurate statistics, how our government is and is NOT involved in these false gun supplying allegations made against them; the use of and suppliers of these high powered weapons, how and where they originated from and other info you've given. You have my full support.

I am the anon who posted the post above concerning how our police officers need protection too from these criminals and crazies who randomly shoot them nearly on a daily basis and the fear they live under; to which no one responded. Don't their lives even matter? Apparently not.

Incidentally, I wish to point out that some of you who make such ludicrous, patently false and vicious allegations against Obama, other US officials past and present, and our government; seemingly have no idea how easy it is to trace your PC identity and all your personal info, even using a false name and not even being registered to post here. VERY EASY. Are you crazy or what?

Lemon said...

PC identity :)

Easy peasy, no PC! Right, Apple?

Justme said...

"Incidentally, I wish to point out that some of you who make such ludicrous, patently false and vicious allegations against Obama, other US officials past and present, and our government; seemingly have no idea how easy it is to trace your PC identity and all your personal info, even using a false name and not even being registered to post here. VERY EASY. Are you crazy or what?"

You don't see a problem with what you just said? We have to be crazy to exercise free speech? I'm not arguing the truth of what you said. I'm just saying we SHOULDN'T have to be afraid of our own government.

Sus said...

I haven't seen anything out of line here, but sometimes I do on other boards. Of course, law enforcement watches the internet for plots to harm others. The internet is used for illegal purposes.

Anon, thanks for your support, but I know what I know and I believe what I believe. Call your Senators and Representatives and tell them what you believe.

Trigger, read again please.

Pencils, penises, cars...oh my! Again, I will explain: Certain people misspell with pencils so they use a dictionary or possibly a computer with spellcheck - problem fixed. Teachers don't say, "Little Johnny, you spell how you want. We don't care if we can read it." When men rape they go to prison and some are chemically castrated, yes. We don't say, "Too big a problem...every woman for herself." That example has played out in India, and thank God, the people are now demanding change. Drunk driver's have their licence taken away. It took a lot of work on the part of groups like MADD to get to this, but they do.

Now what do we Americans do about gun violence? We buy more. We stop every law that says we can't stop gun violence...huh? We are 5% of the World's population and own 50% of the guns. A sad tidbit for you...If you are a young black male attending a Cincinnati high-school, you are more likely to be shot than if you were an American soldier in Afghanistan. In other words, he's safer in the army than in his high school! It's time to do something when that's the case!

Apple said...

Lemon,
Steve Jobs would disown me... :)

Anonymous said...

All I'm saying JustMe, is that the FBI and The U.S. Justice Dept constantly have their eyes fixed on websites, facebook, utube, message boards, ebay, craigslist, tweets and other social outlet sites. They have specially trained employees who do nothing else but monitor these websites. It's not about anyones' freedom of speech, it's all done under the name of our security; illegal sales of various kinds, tracing/trapping criminals, and apprehending those who appear to be making threats.

You wanna start having a few little problems coming at you outta nowhere? May I just suggest that slamming the president, other officials, the US Government and other branches of the government and making false allegations against them is NOT a wise thing to do. Freedom of speech only goes so far.

Justme said...

"Freedom of speech only goes far." Yes, sadly that is the case. All of our rights are being eroded away, slowly at first but with increasing speed. And most amazing to this old lady is that it is happening at the request, cooperation and approval of the populace.

You stated my position better than I did.

I would rather fear an individual with automatic weapons than my government with unlimited power.

We can't agree on which of us is naive.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

"There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from

control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the

surface via chain emails or through CASUAL CONVERSATION. Since we can't keep TRACK of all

of them here at the White House we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see

something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, SENT IT to

flag@whitehouse.gov."

FLAG???@whitehouse.gov

It doesn't say to send people to the site to get the "facts" about "health care reform". It

asks for help tracking and flagging email, web sites and casual conversation.

I can't resist reposting this:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things/

"There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through CASUAL CONVERSATION. Since we can't keep TRACK of all of them here at the White House we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, SENT IT to flag@whitehouse.gov."

FLAG???@whitehouse.gov

It doesn't say to send people to the site to get the "facts" about "health care reform". It asks for help tracking and flagging email, web sites and casual conversation.

I'm sure I've already been flagged for googling, visiting and posting a link to this site. I'm sure anything with Obama, President, firearms, bombs, terrorism and countless other words and the sites where they appear are flagged. Seems to me we are all in trouble.

Justme said...

Ignore,

"I would rather fear an individual with automatic weapons than my government with unlimited power."

I meant to say it but not in the context of that conversation.

Justme said...

Oh, heck, ignore it all. My cutting and pasting skills leave much to be desired. :)

Anonymous said...

Sus

The FBI launched an attack with automatic weapons on U.S. citizens - civilians. And, if memory serves, there were also tanks used. 23 children died that day. All I am saying is that more children have been killed by automatic weapons fire by the government than by civilians. What worries me is that this does not worry you.

As for history, go back a bit further. According to my high school history, in 1776 this land was governed by Great Britain. The citizens bearing arms were called militia. According to today's philosophy, these were rebels and needed to be stopped. Aren't you glad they weren't.

Sus said...

I understand what you are saying, Justme.

Sus said...

Anon, I don't think we can ever list everything wrong with Waco...beginning with your point that innocent children died in the raid. As to who killed them, I think we'll disagree. The Branch Davidians should have surrendered or released the children.

Sometimes Federal agencies are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The Branch Davidians had firearms and bombs. Former members said they had plans to use them. The ATF rightly served a warrant on them and were attacked. Now the ATF has gone down in history as attacking an innocent religious group...not so.

The FBI maybe should have been more patient, but mediators felt the children were in danger inside the compound. We've seen other times when the FBI was villified for not getting children out of groups soon enough.

I have no idea where you get the idea the government kills more children with assault weapons than criminals do. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but NOT TRUE! In large cities like Chicago assault weapons are used for drive bys daily.

Oh, and I might change my mind on the government killing children. My mind is still out on drone attacks in Pakistan.

Um, yes I am glad the rebels won the War of Independence. I always tried to instill in my students the intelligence and courage of our Founding Fathers. I also taught that the US Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written, not because it answers all, but because it is flexible and grows through time and changes as needed. James Madison was brilliant.

Anonymous said...

Sus, there is one statement in your post above "The FBI maybe should have been more patient, but mediators felt the children were in danger inside the compound...." CORRECT. "In DANGER"?

That is the excuse they used for allowing David Koresch to remain at his beligerant and dangerous standoff, so how does that justify Janet Renos' order for the FBI and the ATF to charge the compound and kill them all in a firey flaming pit, burning them all alive?

Then Janet Reno says "I take full responsibility", like that makes it okay for what they just did to these children they "said" were in danger~! They give it thirty days, then burning them to death is supposed to obsolve what they did to the children they were claiming to protect for the prior thirty days?

I have never been able to rationalize what the FBI, the ATF and Janet Reno did that day. At the least, I hope Janet Reno has a long time to sit rocking on her porch reliving the horrors of the burning flames she brought down on these helpless children until she loses her sick mind.

Hobnob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hobnob said...

Woot! My first impersonator.

I would like to take this moment to thank all my family, friends, fans, sundry domestic pets, local wildlife and the skint man who didn't shred his bank statements and allowed one of my cats to become an identity thief when he brought 2 of his statements home.
Without your love and support i would never have gotten my first impersonator.
You have made my posting comments and analysis worthwhile.
Thank you for the accolade, i shall place it in pride of place in my bathroom on top of the kitty litter box.

Thank you , Thank you i love you all!

~wanders offstage blubbing and wailing hysterically (and theatrically)~

Lemon said...

~ golf claps ~

john said...

Woohoooo

Anonymous said...

A good roofing hammer will throw just like a hatchet.

Jazzie said...

The bell tolls.

Each name read.
The silence in between.
Holds sorrow in eternity.

Lost on the ones
holding the guns.

The bell tolls.
Again.

Jazzie said...

Innocent people died
on December 14, 2012
in Newtown, CT

The weapons were a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle and two handguns -- a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.

These innocent people were not clubbed, beaten, strangled or otherwise put to death by other means.
They were shot with guns.
This is an unfortunate fact for all gun lovers.

Ask me if I think violence negates violence.
Ask me if I think more weapons will negate violence.
Ask me if I think I feel safer knowing more people have and want more weapons of violence.
Ask me.
I live in CT.
I grew up in a family and we never had guns.
My father fought on the front lines in WW2.
What he witnessed was more than what you all want to imagine about death and violence.
My father never owned a gun.
I do not believe in guns.
I will not be consumed by America's obsession with guns and violence.

And the bell tolls.
The silence in between each name
holds sorrow in eternity.
Remember
each name of the innocent
fallen under the weight
of purchasing politicians
with metal.

Anonymous said...

Criminals are by nature law BREAKERS. More laws will not stop them. In fact, laws add fuel to the fire of a true criminal. They have no respect for laws. I wonder if that simple reality will ever sink in for those who scream for more laws. Laws are like locks, they are useless in the face of someone who has no respect for them. Laws will never prevent crime.
~ABC

Sus said...

Yep, criminals BREAK laws. So why are we selling them automatic weapons to do it with?

Someone is profiting from that not so brilliant idea...guess who.

Anonymous said...

Sus said
"So why are we selling them automatic weapons to do it with?"

Who is we?

Are you suggesting that firearms be banned all together?

~ABC

Sus said...

Thank you. Beautifully said.

Sus said...

AUTOMATIC is right in your quote from me. Someone else asked my suggestions earlier on this thread...please read my post further up.

Sus said...

Oh, and WE are Americans. As the law stands now most anyone can get ahold of an automatic firearm.

jon tyra said...

I don't know but it seams the only people that are going to get screwed are the good people. If they ban guns how are we suppose to protect are self? Do you all really think the thugs are going to turn there guns in NO why? Because they have unregistered guns, only the law abiding citizens register their guns.so just imagine the chaos, thugs with guns, good law abiding citizens with rocks. Don't ban guns just make stronger laws for buying a guns.

Anonymous said...

first of all...you guys are throwing around words like automatic and cop kills clearly do not know what you are talking about. The Bushmaster AR15 which was NOT used in the sandy shooting is a semi-automatic rifle, just like majority of hunting rifles used or handguns even revolvers. this means one bullet per trigger pull, not hundreds of bullets per minute...what is an "assault rife" anyway? it is a stupid trigger word media has beaten into your heads focusing on the cosmetics of a rifle. why are you beating your war drum against rifles anyway when more people are beaten to death with hammers and clubs ~400 rifles to ~500 hammers/clubs. Handgun are used much more often. How is the capacity of a plastic box going to make it "safer"? my pants can carry 16 AR mags, my tactical vest can carry can carry 12 more and reload takes 5 seconds...again...rifles are used less then cars in homicides. When buying guns, your mental illness is checked, your background is run, there is no magical gun show loophole, Chicago has the strictest gun control and the most crime compared to cities with concealed carry. If you refuse to take your own safety as your own responsibility, stop telling me i can't protect myself...your mind is already made up and there is no point in convincing you otherwise, but stop talking against things you know nothing about just because it's the popular thing to do...

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