Sunday, January 13, 2013

JonBenet Ramsey Case Poll

As we continue to work through analysis, it can become tedious due to the volume of material, yet it is within these small details, particularly, pronouns, that truth emerges.

We live in an ear where information flows instantly and without instant gratification, audiences move on quickly.  In the terrible killing of the children in the Connecticut school, we saw this rush for information in disgraceful erroneous reporting.  Facts be damned, time was all that mattered.  Most of us thought the killer's mother was a teacher in the school, and the father lay dead before the shooting.

Better is to be informed and take the time necessary to learn the truth.

In digging into the killing of Jonbenet Ramsey, I have already written that justice was perverted by several factors, particularly the fear factor in the District Attorney's office:

state attorneys did not want to go up against private attorneys in a very public courtroom, therefore, they not only floated the "intruder theory", but sought out a detective to prove the theory, and sabotaged the police case, including maligning the police, through carefully planned leaks and public statements.

The fall out was tremendous and the fear factor has impacted such cases as:

Baby Lisa
Ayla Reynolds
Hailey Dunn

What do you think happened to Jonbenet Ramsey?

Let's take a poll now, and then when the series is complete, we will take it again.

We already know that many of you have changed your minds over the years, thinking one thing in 1997, and quite another thing today.

Choices:

1.  The intruder theory.

This means that someone broke into the home, wrote a very long ransom note, including a scrap copy, killed Jonbenet, moved her body to the basement, and set up a crime scene using implements in the house, all without leaving behind evidence to identify him.

2.  Inadvertent Death Theory

This is where the child died an unintended death; that is, it was not premeditated.  This could have been because she woke up, for example, and when one parent lost his or her temper, did something that caused the death.

The "inadvertent death" theory may also encompass that there was an angry explosion during sexual abuse and the child was being silenced, or hit in anger, and died.   Of course, there is the deliberate silencing of a child who wants to reveal sexual abuse, and this is not inadvertent; only it is not pre-planned at the time of death.

A shaken baby is not premeditated, for example, but the consequences remain the same.

For the purpose of our poll, the inadvertent theory means that John and Patsy Ramsey conspired together to cover up what really happened.

This is my belief.

I do not believe that her death was intended, but that she was, in deed, a victim of sexual abuse (I base this upon the linguistic signals as well as the behavior and medical indicators), but that her death posture was staged.

John Ramsey's own words, describing how he came upon her (he did not "find" her), are related to sexual abuse, itself.

The 6 year old was dressed up in a sexualized manner, like a Las Vegas showgirl, and taught to move in a provocative manner.

This is sick, and it was sick in 1996 and even as culture changes, it remains sick and twisted, even while "GSA" is claimed by defenders (this is for another day).

Dressing her up like a showgirl, for me, is Strike One.

The sexualized 6 year old had a history of urinary tract infections.   Strike Two.

The sexualized 6 year old had a history of urinary tract infections and chronic bed wetting is Strike Three.

The language associated with sexual abuse (do some research here and at the old location of the blog) confirms, for me, that Jonbenet was a victim of sexual abuse.

The two parents had enough reason to believe that whatever caused her death would not be believed and that they would turn on each other and lose custody of Burke.

John Ramsey had already lost one child.

They knew that their name, wealth, reputation and entire lives would be lost for an "accident" (their thinking, not mine) where one of them may have struck the child, who fell and hit her head (this is the theory that most experts have given me over the years), and decided that they would cover it up.

They used words in the Ransom note that did not come from thin air.  They came from memory; that is, memory of books, movies, etc.

"And hence"; the strange (and improper) phrase in the Ransom note was also in a Christmas card written by Patsy.

These two parents had reason to conspire together and neither would roll over on the other.

From the very beginning, they refused to cooperate with police, lawyered up, went polygraph shopping, and let their millions intimidate a district attorney who cared more for his career than he did for justice.

The DA (meaning, the DA and the assistant DA's) in Boulder knew that those of talent would not settle for the money the state paid, but would go on to great wealth, and the district attorneys did not want to face off, in a very public forum, against the Lin Woods of this world and suffer humiliation.

Instead of just being cowardly silent, they instead went on the attack against the police and even worked against the police, not just in public sentiment, but in releasing information.  Police made mistakes (see the interviews) but they knew that there was not a child killer on the loose in Boulder, laying in wait for other innocent victims.

Jonbenet died in that house, at the hands of those who did not intend to kill her, but did, just the same, and conspired together, perhaps telling themselves, "We have to save Burke"; while their lawyers did everything possible to stymie the investigation.

Interviewers are not machines.

Interviewers get rattled and have their confidence shaken, and while having each and every word put under a microscope by the defense, they take solace in knowing that District Attorney's office will have their collective back and support them.

Boulder Police did not have this.  They did not have the emotional support, but had to work while slowly bleeding...

from the knife in their back.

But, this is me, and my personal opinion.

What sayest you?

What do you think happened to Jonbenet?

Vote in the poll and put your comments out plainly as to why you voted what you did.

Anonymous posters who wish for dialog, choose a name.


  
How Did Jonbenet Die?
  
pollcode.com free polls 

58 comments:

Anonymous said...

I voted that she perished at the hands of her parents. There was little to no information at least available to the public about parents who kill their children-no data-now over the years we have been able to study the behavior and see what true families with true missing and or killed children act like. MAKE NO MISTAKE THE RAMSEY'S HAVE DONE EVERYTHING TO AVOID THOSE OBVIOUS TRAITS. Oh and Statement Analysis? Only BANGS out the truth more-and for that you are to thank Peter. ~Jenniesdae

Eliza said...

I also voted that her parents (or one of them) caused Jonbenet's death. I think that her mother did it as a result of yet another bedwetting incident, therefore I agree with Peter that it was not premeditated. John could have agreed to cover it up so that their family could avoid the scandal and stay united, or because he was afraid that a possible sexual abuse of Jonbenet would come to light.

Trigger said...

I voted that Jon Benet died at the hands of her parents.

I also agree that LE was afraid of the powerful Ramsey's and their powerful attorneys.

I agree with Eliza that John Ramsey was afraid that the possible sexual abuse of Jon Benet would be examined. Patsy may have ignored the signs of sexual abuse to keep herself comfortable, secure, and well taken care of.

ME said...

Contact the police if you are positive,DON'T seek scandals in tragedy

Anonymous said...

Regarding the urinary infections. Didn't her doctor state that Jonbenet didn't have any health issues?

I believe she was sexually abused and murdered by her father, but I think it is strange the autopsy didn't show old wounds.

PaulaJ said...

I think she died at the hands of her brother. I know this isn't a choice in this poll, but I believe that the reason that the Ramsey's conspired together was to save their son from a life in prison. I think both kids were victims of sexual abuse (Burke was a chronic bedwetter too) and I think he was jealous enough of his sister to do it. There is the possibility that he has autism, which may explain his indifference to her death, and his previous acting out (he had hit her with a golf club before with intent to harm). I believe JR was sexually abusing BOTH children and PR knew about it. However, neither of them were in "happy" marriage, so if one killed her, the other certainly wouldn't have covered it up - they would have ratted each other out to save themselves. However, they certainly would have banded together to protect their son - the real culprit. JMO

PaulaJ said...

Anonymous,

The autopsy DID show old wounds. It showed that she had chronic trauma of the vagina and recent trauma (within the few hours before she died). From what i have read, there were fibers from JR on the INSIDE of JBRs genitals. I also understand that the Pediatrician was friends with the family and did not feel her chronic bedwetting and UTIs were signs of sexual abuse.

Peter Hyatt said...

I should have added that anyone who thinks Burke was involved should choose "family"; and re-worded.

I wanted STranger v FAmily only
I appreciate the viewpoint about Burke, leaving the parents to cover for him.

In that case, please choose parents.

audpaud said...

I'm not as up-to-date on the facts of this case as I once was, but distinctly remember ruling out "accidental" death in my mind due to the force needed to crack JonBenet's skull. That also rules out Burke.

I think Patsy/Mother was aware of the sexual abuse of JonBenet (and perhaps Burke/perhaps forced/coerced into participating) but numbed herself with alcohol/pills to continue the lifestyle.

Ultimately, I concluded that in word and deed Patsy revealed herself to be the actual murderer.

Maggie said...

I believe she was killed intentionally by Patsy and that the father was not involved (although he certainly may have been abusive to her at other times).
I believe Patsy wrote the note, and that there is no indicator that any part of the note was dictated to her (by John).
I believe whoever wrote the note killed JonBenet.
I have read that JonBenet was killed by an extremely severe blow to the head. How could this have happened accidentally? But, even if her death was accidental, I do not believe that the other parent who was not involved in the killing would have immediately agreed to help cover up the crime by A) writing or assisting in the writing of the ransom note and B) staging such a sick crime scene. In other words, the parent who was not involved would not just immediately agree to help cover up the crime in such a criminally sophisticated (sick) manner. This is why I don't believe both of the parents were involved in perpetrating and/or covering up the crime. Just Patsy.

Anonymous said...

I was convinchat for a long time that Patsy threw JB down in anger over bedwetting (and perhaps, subconsciously out of jealousy). When I heard the 911 call with Burke talking in the background ( while they have sworn he was asleep) I also considered that he, in a fit of anger, banged her head against something. Whichever happened, I think the Ramseys' social lives and business success required the appearance of being the squeaky clean, all-American family, so the cover-up was necessary. I believe Patsy was able to go to her grave with thie secret because it was all about protecting their family.

Mainah said...

I think: family...

I think some one, two, or more, maybe Burke, maybe Patsy, maybe John, or a combination of; sexually abused her, over time.

Where is Burke now? Is he an adult famously looking for a violent serial killer? Calling out for justice? nah...

I think, Patsy initiated and orchestrated a cover-up, John jumped on-board within minutes, maybe hours after the death occurred. Today, John continues to market the hoax for profit and other perverse personal gains, he is content and confident in his pop innocence story, and does not seek JonBenets killer(s).

It is noted in Patsy's statement that a "normal" evening may have had JonBenet sleeping in Burkes room.

I think it's most probable/plausible that they, the family pack, abused and exploited their most weak and vulnerable member; and this is where I need to echo Peter's whole sick & twisted, (I'll add "wrong") sentiments. They sexualized her and played with her like a doll, or toy, something fun to play with and manipulate, for (Patsy and Burke's?)entertainment. John had other entertainment in his life apparently. But when the accident (and I should qualify accident, pfft)happened, he went along with the remaining members of the pack.

Maggie said...

I just don't understand how such a severe blow to the head could have been accidental. The accidental theory in my opinion requires that you believe a severe blow to the head was delivered accidentally and that the other parent just jumped right on board and participated in such a twisted cover-up of the crime.
Maybe, just maybe, if they were covering for Burke they may have conspired in this way. But how could a 9 yr. old have delivered such a severe blow to the head?
That, along with the fact that I believe the ransom note was written before the murder. How in the world could Patsy have collected herself to calmly write a lengthy note that goes into way too much detail and imaginative meanderings "be well rested--the delivery will be exhausting", etc. to have been written in any kind of state of panic.
Also, another thing that is strange, but I don't know what to make of it--it is so odd that the writer of the ransom note left the rough draft of the note laying around. That is truly strange and hard to make sense of.

Anonymous said...

Why did the Ramseys not get rid of the body, and then claim a kidnapping?

The whole thing makes absolutely no sense.

Anonymous said...

I have doubt about the accidental death as well, after seeing the crime scene photos. "Eight inch fissure where her skull was crushed like an eggshell"
That photo shows a horrible huge crack, hole, etc. What accident could have caused something like that? That needed a huge force to be done and a big or very strong object. That looks intentional to me. Horrible photo.

Her death posture is consistent with the ransom note, more likely the same person was involved in both. The ransom note does seem fake, given its language, story instead of a point and its length. All those indicate the strong possibility of family involvement.

rob said...

I read a book written, I believe by a reporter in the case, 'Murder in Boulder' or something like that. In the kitchen, where the bowl of pineapple was found, was also a very large, heavy flashlight. I have always thought that Burke hit her with it and killed her, and that is what united the parents in the coverup. The kids may have even used it to go into the dark basement as a game, and he hit her there. I'd like to know what the son is doing now, as I don't believe he has ever spoken about the case publicly. the note and the cover-up were overkill, and only made the parents look guiltier, it is now known to just dispose of the body, and claim the child went missing from their bed, and keep your mouth shut, and you will get away with it.

Trigger said...

I read that Jon Benet's body was found wrapped or covered with her blanket. Isn't that an indication of a family homicide?

"Our lawyers versus your lawyers" seems to be the prevailing theme in this case. The secondary theme is who has the best Public Relations response.

Even Sherlock Holmes couldn't get past this parade of players unless he gets to the facts, in spite of the professionals.

Anonymous said...

I often wondered if JonBenet was sent to the basement to sleep if she wet her bed. I think she was being punished for having wet her bed and that resulted in her death.

Eliza said...

Trigger, I think that if the killers covers up the victim, this means that he/she feels remorseful or cares for the victim. Jonbenet was found in her blanket, covered like she was safe and she also had a doll with her, if I am not mistaken. I can definately see a family member doing that.

Skeptical said...

This was a good exercise. It made me inventory and clarify my thoughts, both pro and con. I came to the conclusion that I will always have the proverbial divided mind on this case.

Ramseys Responsible:

Pros:

Statement Analysis of the Ramsey's interviews.

The exact amount of John Ramsey’s bonus was in the note. How many people knew?

Patsy Ramsey dressed in same outfit as the night before. I’ve done it, but would she?

The note was written by Patsy Ramsey. (The linguist Dr. James Pennebaker does not agree.)

Cons:

The means by which JonBenet was killed indicate what the police call a rape kit (rope, tape, stun gun). Her hand was bound with a rope, which was also used as a ligature. There was tape over her mouth and there was evidence a stun gun had been used to subdue her.
The pathologists were unable to agree on the autopsy results. Dr. John Meyer who performed the original autopsy noted no evidence of sexual abuse. Dr. Cyril Wecht in his book differed in his opinion. Did the accusation of sexual abuse arise out of Dr. Wecht’s opinion? It has been reported that he did not have access to the original report or the slides. Did he or didn't he? When people begin to accept money for their professional opinion, other than in relation to their job, I question their authenticity. I include Park Dietz and Henry Lee in this group.

There has been so much hearsay reported in the media and in books written since 1996 that it is impossible to determine what was said and by whom from all the he said/she said reported.

FBI said John Ramsey did not fit the profile of a pedophile.

John Ramsey has never been accused of pedophilia before or after JonBenet's murder. If someone is a pedophile, they don’t stop.

Patsy Ramsey was dedicated to making JonBenet appear as beautiful as possible (bleached and permed hair, fake teeth, makeup etc.) I cannot see her with her narcissistic tendencies being able to destroy her creation or let anyone else destroy it. She would have had to tie a garrote around her throat, choke her to death, insert a paint brush into her vagina, and bash her head in.

I found this article on the internet written by a former child pageant performer. It should be a wake-up call to any mothers with Honey Boo Boo dollar signs in their eyes.

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/i-was-in-beauty-pageants-as-a-child-20121207-2azi8.html

I am assuming pageants are only for girls. Unless there are equivalent contests that are as heinous for boys. Perhaps body building. That’s a contest whose main focus is also on appearance. What would Bravo call that? Toddlers & ‘Roids.

Anonymous said...

If the autopsy showed old wounds in her vagina, then the case would have been pretty much solved.

Hence, I do not believe the autopsy concluded that she had been abused. If the person performing the autopsy thinks she wasn't molested before, then the Ramsey's would walk.

It doesn't matter if later medical opinions states otherwise, as long as the conclusion on the autopsy is she was not molested.

Ivy said...

Look at the response to the question about why they would only be interviewed by the police together. Patsy says that condition was not imposed and John says repeatedly he couldn't remember. They couldn't even keep their story straight about their plan to keep their stories straight. At about 3 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1weSxDOI77s

Ivy said...

Watch them answer questions about hiring lawyers and the distinctions they draw about what constitutes hiring a pr firm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o3DNmmyrJw

Anonymous said...

Before the JBR murder, there was a similar attempt to either attack or kidnap a young female child out of a home near the Ramsey neighborhood. The mother and little girl were asleep in the house alone as the father was away on a business trip. As I recall the intruder was stopped in mid abduction by the father arriving home unexpectedly. In the struggle to save his child, the intruder got away. I saw the parents who experienced this horrific situation on TV and they wondered why they weren't ever interviwed in the Ramsey case since they felt they had experienced the same situation..

it's quite a story.

Ivy said...

On finding JonBenet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSrlPlhUgr8

Anonymous said...

Burke's done it ... IMO
I'm not ignoring 2 other players with other vices and reasons for cover-ups, though.

Ch√Ętelaine

Ivy said...

Things that stand out to me from watching clips from old Ramsey interviews from various years (Just my opinion). 1) John Ramsey, when asked why someone would leave a ransom note and then kill the kidnapping victim says they are dealing with someone who doesn't think logically -- this answer assumes a lot from someone who doesn't know what happened and confirms my sense that the lack of sense of the scenario worked in the Ramseys' favor to some extent and they recognized that. The ransom note makes no sense in light of the murder, but without it fewer people would think this was the work of an intruder without it 2) is quick to bring up his older daughter's death as a way to explain his lack of affect on the day he found JonBenet, etc. -- I think this answer actually contains an important part of this case, and that the loss of the older daughter at 22 altered JR's worldview and caused him to look at his younger daughter differently (JMO) 3) parents said the abductor was a pedophile before they read the autopsy report (which was inconclusive on sexual trauma anyway) 4) They are also quick to put their hiring lawyers on their friends, etc. as opposed to saying that the police was wrongfully focused on framing them or whatever and they had to protect themselves (and they never explain why they needed two lawyers, which can only be because they are potentially adverse i.e. one is more guilty than the other or will turn on the other, etc. which wouldn't be the case if they were both innocent) 5) John Ramsey says in one interview that whoever did this was either angry at him or jealous of him and then he says he doesn't think the person was angry (meaning he thinks they were jealous) -- I'm stretching here I, I'm aware, but to me this resonated with the "fat cat" language in the ransom note and all the "respect" for John Ramsey expressed therein -- very high self regard. 5) John Ramsey is the one always talking and he is a very slick, skilled speaker, honestly he could have been a politician the way he diverts difficult questions and I actually don't mean that in a negative way. I have other non-statement analysis thoughts on this but to me the things that most suggest guilt are 1) the totally not credible situation of that crazy ransom note plus JonBenet dead in the basement with the scene staged as it was 2) the fact that they got two lawyers and refused to be interviewed apart from one another and are very evasive about all of this 3)the failed polys 4) the weird phrasing of the questions on the passed polys 5) their unwillingness to say whether Burke was there or not after the phone call -- they just ask to see the tape, etc. 6) similar evasiveness on basic details that would likely be etched in the mind -- this is not the behavior of falsely accused people -- this the behavior of people who are worried about inconsistencies in statements, etc. Just opinions.

Eliza said...

I agree with you, Ivy. The videos you posted are revealing.

Just a question: how do you know that the wording of the passed polygraph questions was strange? I would like to learn more about it.

Anonymous said...

It interesting to note that the Ramsey's lawyer had someone to handle media inquiries.

Yet, the Irwin/Bradley lawyer claimed on a KC radio show that the reason for no local media interviews was because there were too many inquiries to handle.

Maggie said...

Everyone's comments are very interesting and they are bringing up some questions in my mind.

One question is if Burke had, at age 9, accidentally killed Jonbent, how much legal trouble would he have actually been in? I ask this out of ignorance. I don't know. But I am thinking that his parents would have probably not have thought they would lock him in jail for life and throw away the key. Therefore, the idea that they staged this sick and twisted crime scene to "cover" for Burke seems very unlikely. Sure, they may have tried to cover for him, but not by setting up a brutal crime scene. Just my opinion.

brosnanfan said...

I agree that JonBenet's death was covered up by John and Patsy Ramsey due to her accidental death in the home. According to Wikipedia, “The official cause of death was asphyxiation due to strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.”

I have a few scenarios in mind, which could have happened:

A: JonBenet was mortally injured by Burke during a molestation. Burke was ten or eleven, an age when a boy can become curious about the opposite sex. Dr. Robert Kirschner from the pathology department of the University of Chicago determined that JonBenet had been molested, but probably not by a penis (http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html do a CTRL-F, look for "penis"). Pre-teen boys (not yet in puberty or in the extreme earliest stages of it) who are curious about sex and/or the difference between girls and boys often use something other than their penis to molest a girl, like their fingers, a marker, a long toy, or something remotely penis-shaped. He could have seen his sister dolled up like a sex kitten and prancing around like a model, and seen other girls behaving in similar ways, and his curiosity could have been piqued. Also, if at some point he had been exposed to porn in any form, or had himself been molested, exploring his sister could have been his way of dealing with that.

This could have gone on for quite a while, but on this night JonBenet made a noise or started crying or threatened to tell mommy and daddy or woke up in the middle and started screaming or did something that scared Burke, and he hit her hard with something (a pageant trophy?) to make her shut up. Kids don't always understand that you can hit someone too hard, causing a fatal injury, and so Burke accidentally mortally injured his sister. Getting scared, he ran back to his room and hid, hoping to make it all go away or hoping that she would just wake up on her own.

Patsy came in at some point, either after hearing the commotion or in the morning in preparation for their trip, and saw that her daughter had been mortally injured. Somehow she put two and two together and figured out it was Burke. Either Patsy on her own or in conjunction with John made up the kidnapping story and staged the body to look like she was molested and killed randomly ("Her hymen was torn and material consistent with wooden shards from the paintbrush used to make the garrote were found in her vagina.” [http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The%20Body]). Hopefully it would fool police and then Burke would not be taken from them, making them subsequently lose two children in one day. The two parents conspired together to cover up what happened and make it look like a sexual pervert intruder had molested and killed her.

(tbc)

brosnanfan said...

B: John sexually molested JonBenet and she was accidentally killed in the process that night. He could have been molesting her and she fought back or threatened to tell or screamed or something. He went to grab something to hit her with and hit her too hard with a trophy or other heavy object. He forced Patsy to go along with the kidnapping story and staged the body to look like a sexual pervert intruder had taken and molested her (see A).

C: Patsy became enraged at having to deal with yet another wet bed and threw JonBenet against the bathroom vanity, mortally injuring her. She came up with the kidnapping story, made it look like JonBenet had been sexually molested by a sexual pervert intruder (see B) and she then forced John to go along with the kidnapping story.

(An interesting detail in the above link: The story says JonBenet was redressed after death; they said the parents told investigators JonBenet went to bed in a red top but was found in a white top. According to your own link [http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2013/01/ramsey-police-interview-no-analysis.html], Patsy told investigators that she wanted JonBenet to wear a red top to the Christmas party, but JonBenet wanted to wear the white one. JonBenet won. When JonBenet went to bed, Patsy left the white top on her instead of trying to put on a pajama top; the same white top she was found in. Curious little detail.)

The garrote was apparently very loose around JonBenet’s neck, which could have been staged. I don’t think strangling played a factor in JonBenet’s death, but it could have been used to “mercifully kill” her in any of the above scenarios after she was mortally wounded with the heavy object. Apparently, there were no claw marks to her neck (from her own fingernails, trying to loosen the cord), no trauma to the inside of her mouth or cheeks or tongue as usually happens with strangulation. Also, she was seemingly strangled from the back (the knot was in the back, the garrote was in the back, and she urinated towards the front of her underwear, which would happen if she were laying on her stomach); perhaps, in their “mercy strangling”, her parents didn’t want to watch their daughter actually die. (http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting%20the%20Evidence#EvidenceJBRDidNotStruggleWhileBeingStrangled)

Shayna said...

I was 17 when JonBenet was murdered. My gut told me something wasn't right with the parents at the time and today I am even more certain she was killed by a family member.
The autopsy showed an eight inch long depressed skull fracture that occurred before the actual cause of death, strangulation by garrote.
I believe Patsy inflicted the skull fracture, which may or may not have been a fatal injury if treated, in a fit of rage. Perhaps after catching John molesting JonBenet. I believe the skull fracture was caused by the heavy Maglight flashlight found in the kitchen by police. I picture Patsy, in her Christmas party clothes, checking the kids before turning in herself with a flashlight so as not to wake them, and catching her husband with her daughter, a sudden sexual rival.
After critically injuring her daughter, I believe Patsy forced John to strangle JonBenet. I believe she blamed him for "making" her strike JBR and she made him "finish the job."
Statement analysis has only confirmed for me that my gut feelings were correct. Unfortunately, I don't believe JBR will ever receive justice in this world.
-Shayna

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
PR: WE JUST LEFT(“left ‘ missing info) HER TOP ON HER.( I think this is a description of dressing a dead JonB.)

TT: Okay. What did Burke do? Did he fall asleep on the way home also?
PR: He didn’t. I THINK HE WAS, he’s still WANTING TO PLAY.
PR: Um, I don’t REMEMBER EXACTLY, but I think HE WENT TO GO PLAY WITH something. I think maybe he and JOHN were FUSSING with something. A TOY HE WANTED TO PUT TOGETHER or something.
TT: Okay.
PR: I WAS TRYING TO FINISH PUTTING TOGETHER THINGS FOR IN THE MORNING AND. . .
TT: Okay. Finish kind of packing, again the suitcases on the bed. Were they all finished, packed up?
PR: Um, probably PRETTY CLOSE TO IT.
TT: Okay. Burke and John go downstairs to play?
PR: No, I don’t really, don’t REMEMBER WHERE THEY WERE. I WAS, AFTER I GOT HER READY FOR BED I JUST KIND OF RAN about doing my last minute things and. . .
PR: Well just, you know, presents. I mean(qualify,qualify,qualify), I PUT SOME PRESENTS BY THE BACK DOOR and I don’t remember exactly, just things to go to the lake or, and so we’re doing a couple of, you know, getting things ready cause we were leaving(missing info) so early in the morning. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .GETTING things KIND OF LAID out ready to go AND THAT KIND OF THING.
PR: Yeah. I REMEMBER HIM coming to bed. I don’t know what time it was. It was shortly after I came to bed.


PR: I don’t, I’M SURE I HAD TIME TO READ, but I don’t know. . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .whether I DID or not.
TT: Okay.
PR: I think I, I think I just, you know, pretty much went to sleep. I can’t, I just can’t remember.(6 “I’s”)
TT: Okay.
PR: I KNOW I WAS READING A BOOK. I WAS WORKING ON A BOOK, but I don’t think I. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .remember if I READ THAT NIGHT or not. I don’t know.

PR: Well it was, I don’t KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TIME . . .
PB [sic]: I don’t KNOW EXACTLY, but it was, you know, IT WAS NINEISH probably. I don’t I didn’t, not REMEMBER LOOKING AT MY WATCH or anything..
PR: IT WAS DARK.

PR: I DID NOT SO I DON’T KNOW.
PR: SHE WAS SOUND ASLEEP.(from the car)
ST: Okay.
PR: HE CARRIED HER AND PUT HER IN BED AND I GOT HER,(this a from the car) you know, (skips time,ttc)(dropped pronoun)PULLED OFF EVERYTHING( unexpected, what else besides her pants?”Everything?) AND PUT HER, (fragment)I LEFT THE SHIRT ON AND PUT THE PANTS ON.(I think this is after she’s died)



PR: Oh, HE JUST WALKED IN AND LAID HER IN THE BED AND THEN I, I,(stuttering) he left (missing info). . .
ST: You took it from there?
PR: RIGHT.
ST: And that consisted of simply getting her under the covers.
PR: Well, I CHANGED HER AND TOOK THE BLACK VELVET PANTS OFF AND FOUND THOSE, THOSE (stammering) LONG UNDERWEAR PANTS AND (dropped pronoun) PUT ON HER.(“those” distancing, I think dressing a dead JonB.)

PR: I don’t think I IMMEDIATELY DID. I, I uh, YOU KNOW BRUSHED MY TEETH and GOT READY FOR BED AND I THINK, I THINK I GOT, A COUP, YOU KNOW, some presents ready to GO AND JUST KIND OF A COUPLE OF THINGS. YEAH, I’M SURE I WAS GETTING READY TO LEAVE

ST: Um, did you ever go back and check on JonBenet again after you pout her down and turned out the light and closed the door, um, that time?
PR: I don’t believe I DID.
ST: Okay. Um, it was how long after you put JonBenet to bed, did you then retire into bed for the evening?
PR: I don’t KNOW EXACTLY. Maybe HALF HOUR I THINK, I don’t, I can’t REMEMBER EXACTLY.
ST: And it was shortly after you went to bed that John then came to bed?
PR: RIGHT.
?
PR: Oh, yeah. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNLIKELY.
PR: Yeah it was, I mean, HE CARRIED HER FROM THE CAR TO HER BED.
ST: . . .John came to bed shortly thereafter, do you recall if that was 15 minutes or a half an hour?
PR: It was probably JUST A FEW MINUTES.
ST: Okay. You were still awake?
PR: I WAS, yeah, I could, WAS AWARE OF HIM, you know, getting in bed, but . . .

Ivy said...

Here is a link to a transcript of the press conference held after the Ramseys passed the polys.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/24/se.02.html

I think Peter has covered this before, but they initially hired one examiner (Toriello or something) and results were "inconclusive" -- don't know whether or not that can also mean fail or whether the definition of inconclusive is fluid or set in the polygraph world -- Toriello wasn't at the press conference. So they got another guy Gelb to do the polygraph. He asked them two sets of questions -- the first set about whether the caused the injuries that led to JonBenet's death and the second set about whether they knew who did it. Patsy was also asked if she wrote the note and whether that was her handwriting on the note. The questions about whether they knew who did it are the strangely worded questions I am talking about. They are phrased as do you know "for sure" what happened or something to that effect and I was surprised to see that "for sure" language surface in John Ramsey's Nightline interview. To me those are weirdly phrased questions that leave wiggle room for denial despite knowing more or less what happened depending on the facts. I'll say that I know hardly anything about polygraphy, so maybe the question is typical. This transcript is not fabulous because you can't see what questions were asked though you can infer from some of the answers. The transcript I read was different from this one. I think too someone had asked specifically about their scores and I recall that Patsy's scores on the note were strong pass, but that their scores on the other questions were not as strong, but that they passed every question. I may be remembering this wrong though.

Ivy said...

Also, rereading anonymous's post of Patsy's answers about what she was doing the night of the 26th reminds me a bit of the Jeff MacDonald interview about being attacked, he was "kind of struggling" and "kind of being hit" and "sort of laying down" or whatever, just very wishy washy on something that should have been so clear. Granted she's being interviewed months later, but it's very non-committal for something that should be straight forward.

Sus said...

I agree, Ivy. Patsy does not commit to her "story" with her kind ofs, sort is, and I thinks. She not only uses them on the night of the 25th, but all through that day. How do you kind of wrap a present? Or sort of pack a bag?

Something is off about the whole Christmas Day. Patsy did not want to give details. It took going back three times to get some details. Then she mostly left John out and she came off as a robot trophy wife in a frenzy. I could feel her anxiety building as she talked about children coming in and out, and packing to go two places.

Sus said...

Another area of the interview where Patsy stutters and repeats words is in talking about the basement. Not just the basement, but PRESENTS IN THE BASEMENT.

I don't know how, but presents being left in the basement is sensitive to Patsy. At one point she says she WENT BACK down to the basement, when she had never mentioned she was there in the first place. She must have been picturing it in her head to say that.

Sus said...

Okay, I have another thing that stood out in the interview. Patsy subtly disparaged the victim throughout...

JonBenet wanted to go in the star when they drove around to see lights, and was huffy about not being able to.

The children woke them up early Christmas morning.

The children don't allow them to take a shower.

The children aren't interested in showers.

The children wouldn't take their time opening presents.

The children had more presents than Patsy.

JonBenet sat "right in" in Burkes door while the boys played Nintendo.

JonBenet threw a tiff about what to wear to the party on the 25th.

JonBenet got her own little plate of crab at the party.

Then there is the medical part of the interview :
Patsy can barely say poor JonBenet was ever sick, like it was her fault if she was. Burke got strep throat a lot and maybe JonBenet got it from him once. Oh and she had more respiratory stuff.

Burke hit her with a golf club in the head AND THE LEG. One place could be an accident. I'm not sure about two. I call that an attack. Interesting that Patsy began that sentence with "she" then self corrected.

I find it interesting that Patsy introduced bruising on JonBenet. That JonBenet was ALWAYS getting bruises like all kids do. Hmmm.

Eliza said...

Ivy, I read the press-conference transcripts and I agree that the "for sure" phrase sounds odd.

Also I found this sentence strange:

J. RAMSEY: Someone killed this 6-year-old child. We know that and we want them captured.

He says someone and then "Them" as in plural. And "this 6 year-old child" is odd to me. He didn't say "my daughter", "my little girl" etc. It's like it's about a random child.

Maggie said...

It is frustrating bc ultimately, none of the scenarios involving any family member(s) being the perpetrator(s) and writing the ransom note and staging a sick crime scene make any sense.
1). The "covering for Burke" scenario: Burke coukd not have hit her head that hard as a 9 yr old, but even if he had, these parents would have known that as a 9 yr old he would not be punished as an adult. Why in the world would they stage such a horrendous crime scene? It is preposterous.
2). If one parent "accidentally" killed Jonbenet with a brutal blow to the head, that parent or conspiring would not have sat down and written what appears to be a "ransom" note written in a calm and imaginative state of mind. Would all of the cheesy crime show expressions have jumped immediately to mind or did they make tea and sit around brainstorming. Someone had time to think about this note. It was not written in a state of panic. The staged crime scene is sick--how could whichever parent who did not "accidentally" kill Jonbenet have just jumped right on board to help create such a sick staged crime scene.

Maggie said...

should say "conspiring parent" in post above

CanadianGirl said...

I don't believe John Ramsey abused his daughter. For some reason I believe that if JonBenet was abused, it would have been at the hands of her brother. There is just something not right about her brother, I feel he has a bigger role in their family dynamics than we know.

I still believe that John Ramsey had nothing to do with JB's death. That ransom note was so over the top that as a rational thinking man he would have told his wife that she was an idiot and that no one would believe that note.

If I had to imagine what happened, I think John saw the note in the morning and asked Pat Ramsey, "What the...???" and from then on he was trying to help protect his unstable wife and his reputation.
His discovery of JB's body, of course, sounds so fake.

I can't think of any other reason for two separate lawyers other then John protecting himself from his unstable wife, if necessary.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
The Police Interviews were like reading a novel! I have a crazy picture forming in my head of an absurd set of happenings that night.

Anonymous said...

Yes, it is hard to believe parents come up with such a sick cover up. If they did, they attempted to ruin the life of their son, their friends, family, collegues, throwing them over to police to investigate them in the the murder.

After reading a lot about this case

- I believe what most experst say: Jonbenet's skull fraction was most likely caused by her head being slammed at a hard object, most likely ceramic. (bath tub, toilet, etc.)

- The note is fake, it was written by a woman, and whoever wrote it, she was not telling the truth. It was written to confuse the investigation.

- The mother indicates unaccounted hours in her night after arriving home from the Christmas party. She was kind of doing things.

- The mother indicated that she was not truthful about finding the ransom note. She kind of leaned over it to read it on the stairs, and claimed she didn't read through the whole note then and later either. That is nonsense.

- They claim they didn't wake their son up to see if he heard something, or if he knew something, to ask him if he saw anyone strange speaking to his sister. That is nonsense.

Anonymous said...

I wonder when police took handwriting samples, did ask them to write with their left hand as well? (or if they were left handed, with their right hand?)

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
Anonymous said...
Yes, it is hard to believe…
I agree. More SA on the Interview is needed. It's almost too believable.

Anonymous said...

Please HELP find Ayla
JonBenet's headstone has her death inscribed Dec. 25,( I trust the accuracy of the date after reading KNOW EXACTLY many times in PR's interview followed by exact info) that means JonBenet died within hours of returning home. Hence…the murder is described in the Interview.

Eliza said...

Yes, Anonymous, I also believe that Jonbenet died on the 25th. The parents must have known something we don't as they chose Christmas day and not the 26th as the date of death. It would be more likely for the murder to have happened after midnight, but no, they say it was on 25th. I believe them.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
I think IMO: the Ramsey's got home,ninish, John carried JonBenet upsairs and she woke up. John played with Burke and Patsy gave JonBenet a pineapple snack, and ran upstairs to her room to be joined by John in a few minutes. Thirty minutes later Patsy went to check on the kids her search led her to the basement boiler room, she had to push on the not typically locked door, it opens suddenly hitting JonBenet in the head making an awful sound, Patsy sees Burke, he runs, she screams, she sees the cracked skull, runs for John, he arrives on the scene and tells her to call 911, meanwhile she's wondering "what should I do?", she sends John to find Burke and so fast strangles JonBenet.

Anonymous said...

Everybody who believes that John, Patsy, or Burke did it are sick. This whole "the family are pedophiles" angle has absolutely no basis in fact. It sickens me that all these years later with all the work that has been done on this case and myths debunked that so many people think her parents did it. What bothers me more is the stuff people use as "evidence" that the parents did it. John licks his lips therefore he did it, Patsy is a Southerner therefore she did it, Burke was a boy therefore he did it. They used the word "hence" hence they did it. Sadly this case will probably never be solved due to extreme incompetence from the police and the DA's office. Ramsey's are innocent despite the press and the public crucifying them. But if you want to believe her parents did it I can't stop you. JonBenet Ramsey knows her family did not kill her.

brosnanfan said...

Anon 5:10 PM:

Here, we do not go by such things as someone licking their lips or their gender or anything else such as that. We deal in words, and what the subjects say or don't say. That's it. Please take a moment and read through the basic tenets of Statement Analysis; the Number One rule is, "The subject is dead; the statement is alive." In other words...don't consider the person, their vocal inflection, their perceived state of mind, their perceived role. Just look at their words. That's all.

"For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:37)

Anonymous said...

Jon Benet was already dead when they got home. She was not asleep. She was killed earlier in the day and they made up the sleep story to move her body back to there house.

John Mark Karr said...

Uh, I love JonBenet... her death w-was an accident.

I was with JonBenet when she died...she died accidentally.

Anonymous said...

Jon Benet was a hoax. The girl never existed. It was just a government sponsored experiment to test new methods of mind control. That's why the Ramsies refused to have her exhumed. There is no body in that garve.

Mike said...

The local paedophile who committed suicide and was proved by detectives to be a night stalker was my No.1 suspect. Then I considered the letter. It was definitely written by Patsy. She used same phrases weeks earlier in letters. She lost her temper and killed JonBenet then tried to cover it up. The $118,000 is significant as she would have known her husband got that as a bonus. Was she promised some of it but didn't get it?
Finally, a really wacky theory - there WAS a night stalker who broke in and killed JonBenet but the parents were so worried about their reputation/future that they did the letter to cover up the crime they did not commit.
http://crimejail.com

kimisan03 said...

@Eliza, I never knew that about the 25th. "Proper burial" is very important to the Ramseys, as they have stated it interviews and elsewhere. I'm afraid I have to believe them, too.

Mark Bibbee said...

Pat Gisler formerly of Bend, Oregon is the JonBenet Ramsey murderer.He did business with Mexican drug lord family that leads back to George H.W. Bush is why it's been a case that remains unsolved and messed with. Remember Oliver North and drugs for arms and arms for hostages well it's a sick twist on that.Seams Pat was induced into it and could do business with drug lords via CIA and Bush if he killed her. He did and then expanded his Cabo San Lucas , Mexico real estate development opportunity and stateside drug dealing. Since 1998 Boulder PD and FBI have had his handwriting samples that match the ransom note. If I could post that on here I would of his handwriting 1996-97 that match the note.