Sunday, January 13, 2013

Patsy Ramsey Police Interview Part One

This is part one of Patsy Ramsey's interview. 

Analytical Interviewing

The perfect interview will look 80/20 or better; that is, the subject of the interview (Patsy Ramsey) will do 80% or more of the speaking, with the interviewer doing 20% or less, especially as the interview progresses. 

After the initial questions, the percentage should quickly change, with the interviewer saying as little as possible.  The purpose is to gather information, not give it. 

Statement Analysis is in bold type.  


ST: Just sit down.
??: Okay.
ST: (Inaudible) so I’m going to keep half an eye on this as we, as we go this morning and, and Jon certainly let me know as you need to take a break to changes tapes or anything.


JF: Alright Steve.


ST: For the, simply for the record, uh, let me state today is Wednesday, April 30. 1997. The time is 9:05 a.m. My name is Steve Thomas. I’m a detective with the Boulder Police Department. Present in the conference room at the Boulder District Attorney’s office are myself, Detective Thomas Trujillo, Chief Trial Deputy Peter Hoffstrom, Mrs. Patricia Ramsey, Mr. Patrick Burke and Mr. Jon Foster. Just some quick introductory remarks and some housekeeping and we’ll get started here, but Patsy I want to speak specifically to you and tell you that we appreciate you coming to the table today, uh, and your involvement with this and our intention, and I can speak for myself and I think the other persons on this side of the table, is to establish some sort of ongoing dialog. And to that, uh, I think today as an important leap of faith for both sides and uh, I appreciate your comments of wanting to work with us and, and we desire that as well. As you know and as I’m sure Pat’s told you today, we’re going to ask some difficult questions as well as some easy questions and the difficult questions are simply necessary in a case like this and I think you can appreciate that and understand that and we’ll try to get through that as best we can and we’re very sensitive to this Patsy. I want to assure you of that. Uh, I have uh, and you don’t know me personally, but I’ve gone to bat for John’s two oldest kids, uh, John Andrew and Melinda, and despite what anybody thinks about me, I will continue to do whatever is necessary as will Tom and Pete to find the truth in this case and that’s what we’re all looking for. Uh, I will tell you that we will work this until we bring it to a successful conclusion and we will do that and to do that we desire your cooperation. Um, as necessary today Jon and Pat and Patsy, we’re pretty flexible. If you need to take a break or compose yourself, uh, if it’s lunchtime, whatever you need, we’ll work around those things. I think Tom’s going to start and he probably has uh, uh, maybe several hours of questions for you and I might jump in intermittently, but it’s a two way street and I, I’ll just turn it over to you Tom.


TT: Okay. Let’s just (inaudible) a little bit. Kind of tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, where you were born, kind of the nuts and bolts kinds of stuff.


Very poorly worded question.  Shortest open-ended questions are best, allowing the subject to choose where she wishes to choose, instead here he tells her where to begin her answer. 
What should we look for?

In the case of Jonbenet, we had a child:

1.     Sexualized Appearance
2.     Chronic urinary tract infections
3.     Chronic bed wetting

Therefore, it would be wise to listen to any references (linguistic) of childhood sexual abuse in either John or Patsy Ramsey’s answers about growing up.  These indicators are well known to readership, including “child”, “lights”, “doors”, “windows”, “blankets”, “coverings” and so forth; generally found as “extra” words within a sentence. 

PR: I was born in Parkersburg, West Virginia, November 29, 1956. I attended school there, uh high school. I, I was college (inaudible) Charleston, West Virginia and short time  and then I moved to Atlanta in the summer of 1979 and was working for McCann Erickson Advertising Agency. And in 1980, November, I married my husband, John.


The subject moved very quickly from birth to marriage, with no significant details given at any aspect of life.  A trained interviewer would have brought her back to early childhood.  Remember, this is a child murder, and the interviewer should bring the subject back to her earliest recollections in childhood without feeding her any words.

Victims of sexual abuse do not all go on to molest.
Yet, molesters most all have been victimized in childhood.

TT; Okay. So let me back you up just a bit. What high school did you, Parkersburg, Parkersburg High School right?


There is always a nervousness when an interview is being recorded, as the interviewer knows his words (his work) will be examined carefully afterwards, likely many times.  Combine this with the following:
1.     It is a rare murder case
2.     It is a child murder case
3.     The parents have not cooperated
4.     The DA is sabotaging the case
5.     The parents are well insulated by top lawyers

The interviewers’ nervousness is to be expected.  We find questions that may build one upon another, and we find others that do not serve any objective purpose.  Even when questions are used to build a pace in the interview, it is still wise to be gathering relevant information even when rapport building or pace setting.

PR: Parkersburg High School.


TT: Okay. What kind of clubs were you in? What kind of activities did you do in high school?


PR: I was a cheerleader in the 10th grade. I was on the drill team my senior year.


TT: Drill team?


PR: Like a, like a dancing, with the band.


TT: Okay. Not like a . . .(inaudible)


PR: Pom pom kind of thing, you know, yeah, no.


TT: Okay.
PR: Um, I was in student government there.
TT: Did you hold an office those senior years?

PR: Uh, I don’t remember.


TT: Okay.


PR: I was president of the student body when I was in the 9th grade . . .


TT: Okay.


PR: . . .in junior high school. And I was very active in the speech and debate team there and uh, participated regularly in that group.


TT: Where did you go to college at?


PR: West Virginia University.


TT: Okay. And you graduated from there.


PR: Yes.
TT: What was your degree in?


PR: Journalism.


TT: Okay. How’d you do with that? How’d you do in college with your journalism degree?


PR: I graduate Magna Cum Laude.


TT: Okay.


PR: And uh, my emphasis was in advertising so that’s what I did for a, some short time after I graduated.


TT; Okay. And you were Miss West Virginia, Miss America about what did year did all that happen?


PR: 1977.
TT: Okay. That’s during college.


PR: (Inaudible)


TT: Okay. Did any scholarships come out of that?


PR: Yes. I uh, there was some scholarship for winning Miss West Virginia. I can’t remember exactly how much and then at the Miss America pageant I won a non-finalist talent award and I think it was a $2,000 scholarship for that.


TT: I’ve got to ask which talent.


PR: (Laughter) “The Kiss of Death” dramatic dialog.
??: (Laugher)


ST: (Inaudible) Miss Jean Brody.


PR: Your right.


TT; Was that, was that earlier?


PR: “The Pride of Miss Jean Brody.” Well actual. . . no it wasn’t, actually what happened, uh, I did the Miss Jean Brody, I competed in high school with that and uh, placed nationally with it and then I had done that for Miss West Virginia and won with that and then when you go to Miss America you have to do through this business of um, in the event you make the top ten and your on television there are all these rights and royalties or whatever they call it and uh, I have, they have to give you clearance, okay, and to make a long story short, I was unable to get clearance for this. Uh, I can’t remember exactly the details, but uh, I ended up writing a dialog that I used and I don’t even remember, but it had a lot of the same characterizations and that kind of thing. It was all, I was definitely thrilled when I won the talent, you know, because it was a real chore getting there.


ST: I bet.


TT: (Inaudible) Atlanta in ’79 and who did you live with down there?


PR: I lived with Dan and Claudia McCutcheon.


TT: Okay.
PR: Who had been friends from Parkersburg.

TT: Did you guys move down there together?


PR: Well, I went to Atlanta with Dan’s sister, Stephanie, who was my age.


TT: Okay.


PR: And we had been roommates in college for a year and we went down to visit her brother and sister-in-law . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .who had also gone to high school with us so we were all friend. And um, we went, I think initially for just a short visit and then came back a few weeks later to, and decided to move to Atlanta. Stephanie had gotten a job and, and I was still interviewing with advertising agencies.


TT: You (inaudible) get a job with Hayes Computers you think?


PR: No, I, that was much later.


TT: Okay.


PR: I had worked with McCann Erickson Advertising Agency.


TT: Okay, so you worked as an advertiser to start with.


PR: Right.


TT: When you first moved to Atlanta you lived in an apartment building?


PR: Um hum.


TT: Same place that John lived, is that right?


PR: Well we were, we were guests at Dan and Claudia.


TT: Okay.


PR: You know, kind of sleeping on the couch there.


TT: Okay.


PR: In a one bedroom apartment and John lived upstairs.


TT: Okay. Where was this apartment at? Do you have any idea .

. .
PR: Where was it?


TT; Yeah. Do you know the address or anything?


PR: Uh huh. It was Post River Apartments on Talersbury road in Atlanta.


TT: Okay.
ST: Downtown Atlanta then?


PR: No, this was north . . .


TT: On the outskirts.


PR: . . .Atlanta. Marietta. Uh huh. But we were only there for just about a month actually . . .


TT: Okay.
PR: . . .staying with then.


TT: All righty. Um, tell me about some of the TV shows you guys watch. You specifically. Uh, say in recent history, last, the last year. What kind of TV shows do you guys watch?


At times, interviewers will ask background questions:

1.     To see if the subject will be truthful, verifying research already done
2.     To pick up new contacts to interview
It can be draining and ongoing, but it can, sometimes, yield small pieces of information relevant later. 

Here, they know that the Ransom note has references from movies/television (televised movies) and the question is, “What kind of TV shows do you guys watch?”

PR: I don’t watch TV much.


The answer is significant.
1.     She answered it for herself, with the pronoun, “I”, even though it was directed to “you guys”, plural.
2.     She answered it in the negative
3.     She avoided the specific question.

This is where the investigators were going:  the language of the Ransom note.

TT: Okay.


PR: You guys, who guys?


“you guys” does not sound like an intelligently worded question and Patsy seeks clarification.  “What kind of shows do you and John watch?” would have been better.  Patsy is not a “guy” and particularly in her culture, being referred to as “you guys” is not something she likely appreciated. 


TT: You, John, Burke.


Note the order:  TT gives Patsy first, and John second.  This gives away a hint to Patsy that they suspect her as the author of the Ransom note. 

Patsy is not stupid.  She only answers for Burke and she portrays him as intelligent.  She has also been well prepared by attorneys:  Give as little information as possible on even the most innocuous sounding questions and do not go beyond the boundary of the question.  Listen very carefully and answer with short sentences.  This showed itself even when asking about pageantry.  They had hoped to get her boasting, which is the expected.  In the earlier exchange, she kept it to a minimum. 

PR: Burke likes Discovery.


TT: Okay. Discovery Channel?


PR: He likes the Discovery Channel.

She still needs to answer for the others, too.  Her answers are short, but if too short, she will appear uncooperative.


TT: Okay.


PR: And John likes the Weather Channel.


TT: Okay.


PR: He’s a pilot.


TT: Is this a, is that because he’s a pilot?


PR: Yeah. And he watches that, whatever the, you know the thing that runs across the bottom with the stock market . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: I don’t know what that is.


TT: Okay. What’s the. . .


PR: And he likes old movies.


TT: Okay. What’s the last book you read?


Having gotten little from her (Burke, given his age, likely watched much more than just Discovery channel, which, back in 1996, was educational), the interviewer seeks to find a connection to the Ransom note elsewhere.  Unfortunately, this question also gives away information:

PR: Last book I read?


Hot spot.  She answered the question with a question, making the topic sensitive. 

TT: Um hum.


PR: I am reading right now um, “At Home in Medford” by Jan Carran.


She gives the title of a heart-warming fictional story.  This is not what TT was looking for:

TT: Okay. What other kind of books do like to read?


PR: You know, I don’t read a whole lot, because I’m usually so tired by the time I go to bed.


TT: Okay.
PR: Um, uh, I’m just drawing a blank.


TT: Okay. Do you, do you get to the movies at all? Have you been out to see any shows at all?


PR: Oh, I have . . .


TT: I, I know it’s difficult in the last couple of months. . .


PR: Right.


TT: . . .because of, of what’s (inaudible).


PR: Right.


TT: Let’s say before December, what kind of movies have you and John gone out to see?


Desperation showing…Instead, they should have researched what movies they rented or had gone to see, and by giving a date, the interviewer gives even more info to Team Ramsey.


PR: Well, actually we didn’t go out to movies very much, because we had a home theatre . . .


TT: Okay.


PR: . . .so we would usually we’d see everything about a year after it came out.


TT: Once it came out on video.


PR: Yeah, but we, you know, the kids liked to watch movies up there . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .we watched “Forrest Gump” and . . .


TT: Do you and John watch movies at all up there?


PR: Uh, yeah, but I usually fall asleep. He, he usually goes, gets the movies and they’re not my favorites and I usually fall asleep.


Here is a slight split and weakness between John and Patsy.  She reports in the negative, making it important. The interviewers are looking for “don’t try to grow a brain” phrase from the Ransom note.

TT: Okay. What kind of, what kind of movies did he, do you guys end up starting to watch.


PR: Um, he likes Mel Brooks.  He liked 1941. He loves animal House. I got him that for Christmas, and uh . . .


TT: So the kind of comedy type movies.


Never interrupt.  Never interrupt.  He will now change directions.

PR: Um hum.


TT: Okay. Patsy, are there any concerns in the neighborhood up there or have there been any concerns in the neighborhood up there. . .door to door salesman. Any of your neighbors talk about prowlers anything like that over the last six months?


Note that the phrase “up there” is repeated (sensitive to TT) regarding the neighborhood.

They moved too quickly through her upbringing, and came up with nothing on the movies and books, but Team Ramsey now knows the direction investigators sought to go in.  It is time consuming and it takes immense patience, but the subject must be allowed to speak for herself and even in “conversational” style, books, TV, and movies can be spoken about, with information given.

They may seek to disarm her here, by playing up the intruder theory:

PR: Uh no. Not that I recall. I mean we did have door to door sales people occasionally.


TT: Um hum. Magazine sales, the typical sales people come (inaudible) come through.


PR: Yeah, sometimes children, you know, like a, um, black children. I mean, they don’t look like they’re from my neighborhood or nothing, or look, you know like they’re from Denver and they have candy bars of (inaudible). . .


TT: Typical kind of door to door sales.


PR: Um hum and um, you know that’s the only thing I can recall.


TT: Okay. How close are you to your neighbors? I know the Whites and Fernies, they live away, but to the immediate neighborhood, the street you live on. How close are you to the neighbors?


Opening the topic of something being heard by a neighbor:

PR: You mean close in distance or . . .


TT: Not too much specifically, do you know your neighbors?


PR: Do I know them very well. Well the Barnhills across the street . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .I know very well.


TT: Okay.


PR: Scott and Pricilla next door, I know fairly well.


TT: They live to the south of you.


PR: Well uh . . .


TT: is that towards Baseline?


PR: No the other way.


TT: Okay.


PR: Towards Cascade.


PR: Right.


TT: Alright. You and the neighbors on the block that you know or you talk to, socialize with at all?


PR: Not really very much, well Mary and Pat Van live down two doors . . .


TT: Okay.


PR: . . .on the corner of Cascade and 15th. . .


TT: Same side of the street?


PR: Uh huh. But we didn’t, you know, I didn’t see them very often, but just to wave and . . .

TT: How often do you talk to the Barnhills or have you talked to the Barnhills in the past?


PR: Uh, I kind of keep, you know their elderly . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .and I would kind of, you know every two or three days probably . . .


TT: Kind of keep in touch with them:


PR: Uh huh. They, they kept our dog a lot . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: . . .when we went out of town or whatever. Joe was, last year about this time, around Easter time, he was quite ill with some respiratory stuff and I was taking groceries and dinners and . . .


TT: Kind of taking care them.


PR: Yeah. Kind of keeping my eye on him.


TT: Okay. In talking to them had they noticed any weird people around the neighborhood, anything like that in the last six months?


PR: No.


TT: Anybody that shouldn’t be? I know it’s, Boulder is real transient, I understand that . . .


PR: Um hum.


TT: . . .but, um, have you guys ever talked about any problems in the neighborhood, um, car break ins, anything like that?


PR: No, not that I can remem. . . (coughing) I think once the neighbors across the alley . . .

TT: Um hum.


PR: Uh, they drive a black SAAB and I think a year or more ago they had had a, they were parking on 14th Street and they had a car break in and uh, consequently they build a, I think they build a deck on their house so that they could pull in under, you know, behind their house.


TT: So they could park in the back?


PR: Right.


TT: Do you need a glass of water?


PR: This is, this is just right.


TT: Okay.


PR: So.


TT: And when we talk to you, everybody knows Patsy Ramsey pretty well, um, tell me about some of the enemies that you or your family might. Someone that we may need to look at. Can you think of any names that come up as far as people that don’t like you. Don’t like Patsy. Who don’t like the family at all.


Note that he went from “Patsy Ramsey” to “you” to “Patsy” in spite of speaking directly to her.  This shows the distance he has towards her (see “up there” regarding where she lived) and may be an attempt to appeal to her pride.  It is a weak and transparent attempt to play up the Intruder Theory, but this came after he showed Team Ramsey that the Ransom note is related to pop culture movies. 

PR: You know. If that’s the case, I’m not aware of it.


Patsy does not take the bait. 

TT: Okay. Nobody’s talked about the problems that they’ve had with you?


PR: No.


TT: Okay. You know John’s been in, in the computer business for quite a few years.


This is not a question and she does not answer.

PR: Um hum.


TT: Starting his own company, merging companies, stuff like that.


PR: Um hum.


TT: Up through the years, as the companies have merged together, any bad feelings between employees maybe getting squeezed out, um, anything like that that your aware of?


PR: Not that I’m aware of. I think, when, when they merged uh, to the best of my knowledge, when they merged to form Access, all the three companies that were merging all played a role somehow, you know.


TT: Um hum. Nobody…

PR: Nobody got squeezed out I don’t think.


TT: Demoted anything like that. Moved out of top management positions or shuffled around at all?


PR: Not, not that I’m aware of no.


She does not attempt to give them a red herring. 

TT: Okay. Any problems when Access moved into, into Boulder from Atlanta. People that didn’t want to move to Boulder or anything like that that you are aware of?


PR: Um, no. Hum um.


TT: Okay.


ST: Um, Pat, let me jump in with one quick one on Access, uh, um, I was charged with investigative a lot of the aspects of Access employees that had been dealt with, a lot of the VPs over there and so forth . . .


PR: Um hum.


ST: . . .um, I was made privy to some information that there may be some sort of either IPO offering or management buyout. Uh, was anybody going to get hurt by that over uh, in the Access Corporate office. Was that going to hurt anybody that would . . .


PR: But, I don’t know what IPO is?


ST: And Initial Public Offering if they, if they took the company public, um.


PR: You know, I, I really don’t know anything about that.


ST: Okay. Fair enough.


PR: John didn’t really discuss. . .


ST: Okay.


TT: Bus . . .business matters with you.


Never finish a sentence for the subject.  See OJ Simpson interview for this critical error.


PR: Not, no. Hum um.


TT: Okay. Patsy, I need to go through a couple of things here. What medications are you on right now? Are you still on Paxel?

What medications are you on right now? Should have been “What medications are you on?” followed by, “What medications have you taken in the past year?” and so forth.  Instead, he asks a question, and then moves on to a second question and introduces Paxil into the language.

Rule:  Avoid introducing new words whenever possible.

PR: I’m on Paxil, um hum.


TT: How often do you take that?


PR: In the evenings once a day.


TT: Just a bedtime?


PR: Um hum.


TT: And, what’s the dose on that?


PR: 30 milligrams.


TT: And, are you taking anything else right now?


PR: I just started Monday taking something for this sinus infection. I know your going to ask me the name of it.


TT: Is it an over the, I’ll start (inaudible).


PR: No, it’s a prescription.


TT: Okay.


PR: You take it once a day for five days. Dr. Beuf prescribed it.


TT: Okay. And, are you taking anything else right now?


PR: Um, no.


TT: Any over the counter medication, vitamins . . .


PR: Vitamins. I’m taking vitamin C.


TT: Okay.


PR: (Inaudible) vitamin C.


TT: Just for that sinus infection?


PR: Right.


TT: Is that an ongoing type or just . . .


PR: Well, I just. . .


TT: (Inaudible)


PR: I just, since Monday started taking a lot of it.


TT: Okay. Okay. Um, any, any other uh, any other drugs, originally you were taking Paxil and what was the other drug you were taking? Lorzipan.


Lorazapem is generic Ativan, and is significant, not only as it impacts sleep, but as possible interaction with paxil.  TT introduced it, instead of asking her what else she was on.  Lorazapem might make Patsy very sleepy and keep her asleep throughout the night.  It impacts people differently and she, herself, is the best source of information on how it might have impacted her.

PR: Ah yeah, right.


TT: Are you still taking that at all?


PR: Uh, occasionally. Kind of as, on an as needed basis.


TT: When was the last time you took the Lorizpan?


PR: Uh, I took one last night about 6:30.


TT: How’s that, how’s that one make you feel. I mean, out of the two do any of them effect you at all that you can notice?


PR: I mean I don’t really notice anything, but I, usually I take the Adavan if I’m, I start getting, evenings are difficult for me.


This is an important piece of information:  evenings are difficult for Patsy.  Why?  What does “difficult” look like?  What causes the difficulty?  How is the difficulty handled?  What does Ativan do in the evening?  What situations reach the level of medical intervention?  What is different in the evening than the daytime?  What time does John get home?  What is he like when he gets home?  What does he do?  Does he help with the children?  (these questions could have led to questions about the laundry, and eventually, Jonbenet waking up, while Patsy is under the influence of Ativan.

TT: Um hum.


PR: When I start getting tired and I feel the onset of this, not feeling real good. Last night I was pretty, I just been missing JonBenet a lot lately.


TT: Okay.


PR: And uh, you know, it, it seems to, to kind of quell that . .

.
TT: Takes the edge off a little bit.


DO NOT give the subject answers. 

PR: Takes the edge off a little bit.


TT: What kind of dose are you taking on the Adavan when you take it?


PR: Uh, a half milligram.


TT: Okay. Took it last night, how, about how many times a week are you taking that? Once, twice?


PR: Well, probably a couple.


TT: A couple of times a week is all?


PR: Yeah.


TT: Okay. The Adavan and the Paxel, um . . .


PR: The Paxel is an anti-depressant.


TT: Um hum. Either one of them, do you think either one of them’s kind of, uh, changing your thought process or clouding your mind, memory, anything like that?


Very foolish question.


PR: No.


TT: Okay. It’s not, not effecting any judgment or anything like that?


PR: No, huh uh.


TT: Okay. Um, I all this, I know with the sinus infection your probably not even thinking about it, um, have you taken any alcohol? How much alcohol . . .


PR: No. I don’t drink alcohol.


TT: Okay. Uh, do you drink alcohol at all?


PR: No. Not since I’ve been on the Paxel at all.


TT: Okay. When did you start the Paxel?


PR: Uh, I don’t know. February maybe.


TT: Okay. Beg…towards the beginning or the end of February?


PR: I can’t remember exactly.


TT: Okay. And the Adavan, did you start that about the same time?


PR: Simultaneously.


TT: Okay.
PR: One’s kind of a, I think one, is the way she explained it to me, one kind of works, takes awhile to start taking effect and the Adavan is kind of an on the spot, doesn’t last very long, but helps you.


Foolishly giving information, not receiving it.

TT: Okay. Now is Dr. Beuf still prescribing all that?


PR: No. Uh, Rebecca Barkhorn, that’s my doctor (inaudible)


TT: Okay. Um, around between thanksgiving and Christmas I know you guys traveled back and for the Atlanta quite a bit to see your folks and stuff. Um, between Thanksgiving and Christmas time, before Christmas, did you guys make some trips back and forth to Atlanta?


PR: We went to Atlanta, excuse me, at Thanksgiving.


TT: Um hum. What about after Thanksgiving before Christmas, any other trips to go back and see your mom?


PR: I, no, I don’t think so.


TT: Okay.
PR Not that I can remember.


TT: Um, I’m, going to talk about the medical stuff. I know you had cancer about three years ago?


PR: It will be four years in July.


TT: Okay.


PR: I was diagnosed.


TT: And you went out to Washington to take care of that.


PR: Bethesda, Maryland.


TT: Um hum.


PR: (Inaudible)


TT: Um, everything’s going okay with that?


PR: Yes.


TT: I know the stress . . .


PR: Thank God.


TT: I know the stress can cause some problems with that. Are you doing okay with that so far?


PR: Yeah, I just had a checkup.


TT: Good.


PR: Everything was great.


TT: Good. Any other medical problems you’ve had other than the uh, the cancer.


PR: Um no.


TT: Any other surgeries? Spend time in the hospital, other than . . .


PR: At times (inaudible) when I was a child.


TT: Okay.


PR: Uh. I had a breast augmentation.


TT: Okay.


PR: You probably, did you know about that?


TT: (Inaudible)


PR: No the world will know.


TT: No. And actually uh, (inaudible) stuff like that, that staying here . . .


PR: Okay.


TT: . . .inside. That doesn’t get out. Um, when did you have that?


PR: Oh, 1982 or 3 or something like that.


TT: Okay, way back.
PR: And then I had, when I was finishing my chemo and they were doing a chest x-ray and uh, suspected a rupture, so I had locally at the (inaudible) hospital I had my Poriocath taken out, which was where I took my chemo and he went in and checked and both breast, whatever those are . . .


TT: Right.


PR: . . .had ruptured . . .


TT: Right.
PR: . . .and so he repaired the . . .

TT: Okay. Spend any other time in the hospital?

PR: (Paper rustling. Patsy’s response is inaudible.)

TT: Patsy, kind of tell me about your, your normal, normal morning routines. You know, how do you get up in the morning? What time do you get up? Get up by alarm clock, the sun? Kind of walk me through what you do normally in the morning?


PR: Now or . . .


TT: Sure. Let’s start now and then we’re, we’ll work back. (Inaudible)


PR: Okay. Uh, now I get up usually a little before seven and uh, get Burke rallied and get him ready for school and get his breakfast and pack his backpack and make sure he has his homework done and tie his shoes and . . .


TT: Get him going?


PR: Get him out the door.


TT: Okay. After Burke gets ready do you get up and shower out and get ready to go for the day?


PR: Uh, sometimes. I mean, I don’t have much that I go . . .


TT: Okay. Don’t have a set schedule.


PR: . . .out to do lately, so . . .


TT: Okay.


PR: Sometimes go back to bed. Sometimes I get dressed.


TT: Okay. Let, Let’s hop way back before Christmas. Kind of walk me through a normal, normal morning for the family, for you guys.


PR: Um, get up and usually I would get up uh, and get showered and get dressed. I didn’t get dressed before I got the kids up, but um, get the kids up and, Burke usually, you know, dresses himself if I kind of lay his things out and that kind of stuff, but I would get JonBenet dressed and do her hair and all that and . . .


We have a critical point.
She gets up, showers and dressed.  Then, she catches herself, and changes the chronological order and reports what she did not do, in the negative.  She knows what the detective is looking for.

On the morning where she made her 911 call (see analysis) she was still in the same clothing she was in the night before; not something a beauty queen likely ever did, or would ever be seen doing, especially since she was on her way out.  This is a critical piece of information for Behavioral Analysis.

It is likely that Patsy Ramsey did not sleep that night.  Even in her own book she did not say that she slept that night. 

TT: Get her ready for school.


He should have remained silent.

 His constant adding of words is maddening to read, but far worse for the Analytical Interview.  He has just gotten important information but he is not thinking about what he heard; only what he is going to say. 



PR: Get her ready for school. Breakfast.


TT: Okay. Did you have to use an alarm clock to get up or you . . .
PR: No.
TT: (Inaudible) hop out of bed . . .
PR: Yeah, I usually just get up.


TT: Kind of hop out of bed in the morning person. Can’t do it.


PL: (Laughs)


TT: Not a morning person.


PR: If you get the kids off to school . .


TT: You know John uh, John had some problems, kind of was in the hospital (inaudible) when you were going through cancer treatments. How did that turn out?


PR: He had paracraditus.


TT: Um hum.


PR: (Inaudible)


TT: Kind of an inflammation around the heart?


PR: Right. And he had bee to Mexico and I will always believe he got something nasty in Mexico . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: Um, but he, one evening he was grabbing his chest, you know, and I said what’s the matter and he said, oh I have this little chest pain and I said well it must just be indigestion they said that if your having a heart attack your arms hurt and he said well, my arms kind of hurt.


TT: (Chuckle)


PR: In the car. So we took off to the hospital.


TT: Now was that here in Boulder or was that down in (inaudible).


PR: That was Boulder.


TT: That was in Boulder? Okay. How many days did he, did he spend overnight in the hospital.


PR: Uh huh. Yeah.


TT: Just one day in the hospital.
PR: Um, (paper rustling causing Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) one or two.


TT: Nothing permanent though.


PR: No. He took some kind of medication for it and that was (inaudible) . . .


TT: Strong antibiotics and all that and . . .


PR: Yeah. I can’t remember what the name of it was.


TT: Does John have any other major medical problems at all?


PR: No. Well, he had uh, he goes to Mayo Clinic regularly and uh, this past fall he had some prostate tests. . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: Um, but those were all fine.


TT: Okay. So he’s in generally good health?


PR: (Inaudible)


TT: Okay. Other than the one or two days in the hospital um, for his paracaditis, any other stays in the hospital for John?


PR: Um, I don’t, not that I recall.


TT: Okay. Kind of a, who handles the finances for the family, the checkbooks, pays the bills, that kind of stuff?


PR: He does.
TT: Okay.


PR: Usually.


TT: John takes care of all that kind of stuff?


PR: Well, I have a checkbook that I write, you know, my kind of, the personal things, you know, like, whatever, housekeepers or household kind of stuff, you know, but, he usually does (inaudible).


TT: And that’s, particularly what your talking about, that’s, those kind of personal . . .


PR: You know like laundry . . .


TT: . . .housekeeping stuff.


PR: . . .and you know.


TT: Is that the checkbook you wrote the check to Linda Hoffman out of?


PR: Uh huh.


TT: Okay. And that’s uh, she was going to borrow $2,000 is that right?


PR: Right.


TT: On uh, the, on Friday the 26th? That’s when she was due back in the house. Christmas was Wednesday.


PR: Right. Oh yeah, I think that’s right, yeah.


TT: Okay. Do you remember if you ever wrote her a check for that $2,000, because I know she talked about it.


PR: Right. I don’t think I did, because I think, I was thinking about that as I walked down the stairs that morning, that I, oh, I’ve got to remember to leave that check.


TT: Okay.


PR: And then everything broke loose.


TT: Okay. She never picked it up or anything. She never stopped by later and got the $2,000.


PR: I don’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) left that day so I don’t know what happened.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I didn’t write the check, so.


TT: Okay.


PR: (Inaudible)
??: (Inaudible) on the break.


TT: Um, tell me about Burke’s normal bedtime routine before Christmas. How does, how does he normally go to bed.


PR: Oh, he, he um, usually does his homework and then puts his pajamas on and sometimes reluctantly and . . .


TT: Um hum.


PR: He loves to watch Discovery so he tries to, but he’s suppose to be reading a half hour a night, so we would read to him a little bit or he would read to himself and so he was generally pretty good about going to bed.

21 comments:

Skeptical said...

The analysis ascribes many motives to what Patsy Ramsey was saying and why she said it. Does it allow for the possibility that she was telling the truth?

I had to smile to myself that in the book about the Ramsey's "Foreign Faction" the author in speaking about Patsy Ramsey, not quoting Patsy directly, states the following on page 339 "...and 'hence' the need to tear back part of the paper." Isn't it amazing how words we have become aware of can slip into our personal vocabulary. Kind of like when we buy that new blue car. We never noticed blue cars before but now they seem to be everywhere.


Eliza said...

Very interesting... I am waiting for the second part, whenever you can, Peter!

Lemon said...

It was hard to read the transcript. All Patsy had to do was trail off on an answer…

The interviewers would finish for her. Gah!

Trigger said...

Isn't Ativan the same prescription drug that Billie Jean Dunn says she takes?



Hobnob said...

Whay i find most annoying and exasperating is the poor interviewing.

I found myself muttering and grumbling at compound questions and feeding her the answers.

better he asked a simple question and waited, even if she did not answer waiting creaters a silence which the subject will feel the urge to fill.

Silence to a suspect makes them think they have said something they shouldn't have (even if they haven't) and then seek to fill in the silence with perhaps an explanation of whatever is on their mind.

I find it works really well in my job, when i get a complaint about someone i will start with "what's up?"
This lets them decide where to start, they set the priority of whatever happened.

My next question if it is a harrassing or threats situations is always "why would they do that?"
I then have them telling me their version of why it happened, i find silences work as they can't help but explain more about what happened, i watch for what pronouns they use and where and also where they disappear.

If the other problem is online i ask the same questions so i get their version of events and between them i find the truth and advise accordingly.
It also helps if i am parked where the incident occured and can see what was really said and done by whom.

The best bit is, they don't know how i know the truth hehehe

Trigger said...

Paxil is used to treat depression, anxiety, and OCD.

Those symptoms are associated with childhood sexual abuse in adult women. Then we have Patsy stating that she showered before she got dressed. Sexual abuse language.

Maggie said...

Skeptical--with the words "and hence"--I do believe Patsy wrote the note, but I don't think that "and hence" is a rare or unusual phrase when used in writing as many note analyzers seem to think it is. I think that it is actually a fairly commonly used phrase in writing and it is overstretching to act like it is a distinctive trait of Patsy's to use the phrase "and hence".

Mainah said...

Trigger, Where does your knowledge of childhood sexual assault trauma in adults and the prescribed drugs for that come from? I've never heard that tie-in. I hope you don't mind me asking. If too personal, please accept my apologies.

I'm curious if my case then, is unique and rare, or a sign of something more problematic or systematic.

I take Paxil, because a PA at my doctors office was an idiot and so was I. I didn't ask the right questions, or any questions, probably. I was in my late thirties, female, weak from sleeplessness and exhaustion. In a 15 minute office visit for exhaustion and insomnia, she decided my "anxiety" and "depression" might be cured by a pill -Paxil. I liked her. She seemed nice, educated. I took the pills she prescribed. Later, when still having symptoms, a new Dr(?) comes along and wants to "up" my dose. Well, she was nice too. So, I went from 10 to 20 mgs.

Now, this is all within a few years, again, symptoms persist, I'm thinking iron deficiency, or menopause...I needed to figure out why I couldn't sleep, I went back and another new doctor on staff wants to up it to 30mg, I refused and ask for a Psych doctor referral.

Turns out, it can be tricky to stop taking many of those med sets. I've had "medical" professionals call it "harmless to take" yet "harmful to stop taking" and one described my dose as "okay", because it's the dose given to kindergarten kids (that is scary).

When I've tried to stop taking it, I get crazy dizzy, like drunk-dizzy with head spinning, nausea and vom...eew, okay, that's enough description.

I have been on it about 10 years. I continue to take the "young child's dose" to safely maintain consistent levels of the 'tonin (or whatever they call it)...

I did not suffer childhood sexual abuse. My trauma was current and work related. In brief, I and others worked, while some others deceived people in very cruel ways. Eventually, I became powerless to stop it even with my amazing ability of courage, bravery, truth and righteous indignation. I considered trying my physical strength to fight them/it (fraud, corruption of tax payer dollars) and when I started getting happy thoughts of playing whack a liar with my fist, I knew I wanted to delve "higher up" in human knowledge, not atke pills that didn't work...Several fun-filled visits with a good shrink was all that was needed.

The shrink diagnosed me after about ten hours of consult, with having nothing significant wrong, maybe a little PTSD, no drugs needed, instructed to just call again if I need to.

Oh, I still want to hit a bad guy sometimes, but it's not as high on my things to do priority list and it's not as often since I quit the job.

Now, I wonder if those PA's and less experienced medical people, erroneously read something I said, about lights, showering, cleaning...why didn't they just ask me?

...deep breath, exhale...





Mainah said...

Maggie, Yes many people use the phrase "and hence", you're right about that. What is different here, and why everyone makes a big deal out of it, is because Patsy uses the phrase incorrectly, or, shall I say, "grammatically incorrect". It does not, alone, point to anything in the sense of guilt or innocence...However, statistically, the window of possibilities gets more narrow. What are the statistical odds of two separate people, who: 1) use the term "and hence" and 2) use it incorrectly and 3) Feel comfortable formulating a hoax ransom letter for a long period of time,in Patsy Ramseys house?

Jen said...

So frustrating the way the interviewer constantly finishes her sentences when she trails off!! Every time he does it I'm screaming to myself, WHO KNOWS WHAT SHE WOULD HAVE SAID NEXT, but after he interrupts with his nonsense all she has to says , 'uh hum' or 'right'....arrrgh!!

Trigger said...

Mainah said, "Now I wonder if those PA's...Why didn't they just ask me?"

The code of silence is ingrained in child victims.

The child victims will deny sexual abuse even when confronted with the facts, so most professionals just give them medication to quell the unacknowledged fear and guilt.

"Do you like surprises?" is what they ask women who they suspect are victims of sexual abuse.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla

TT: How’s that, how’s that one make you feel. I mean, out of the two do any of them effect you at all that you can notice?
PR: I mean I don’t really notice anything, but I, usually I take the Adavan if I’m, I start getting, EVENINGS ARE DIFFICULT FOR ME.
TT: Um hum.
PR: When I START GETTING TIRED and I FEEL THE ONSET OF THIS, not feeling real good. Last night I was pretty, I just been MISSING JONBENET A LOT lately.
TT: Okay.
PR: And uh, you know, it, it seems to, TO KIND OF QUELL THAT . .

It sounds like the drug use began after JonBenet's murder.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla

TT: Sure. Let’s start now and then we’re, WE’LL WORK BACK.

(Inaudible)
PR: Okay. Uh, now I GET UP usually a little before seven and uh, GET BURKE RALLIED and GET HIM READY FOR SCHOOL and GET HIS BREAKFAST and PACK HIS BACKPACK AND MAKE SURE HE HAS HIS HOMEWORK DONE AND TIE HIS SHOES AND . . . ( This is unexpected, he is too old to have his shoes tied.)
TT: Get him going?
PR: GET HIM OUT THE DOOR.(Unexpected, she’s being interviewed about the death of her daughter, yet her typical day starts with a micromanagement blitz on Burke to “Get him out”)
TT: Okay. After Burke gets ready do you get up and shower out and get ready to go for the day?
PR: Uh, sometimes. I MEAN, I don’t HAVE MUCH THAT I GO . . .
TT: Okay. Don’t have a set schedule.
PR: . . .OUT TO DO LATELY, so . . .
TT: Okay.
PR: Sometimes go back to bed. Sometimes I GET DRESSED.

TT: Okay. Let, LET’S HOP WAY BACK BEFORE CHRISTMAS. Kind of walk me through a normal, normal morning for the family, for you guys.
PR: Um, GET UP and usually I would GET UP uh, and GET SHOWERED and GET DRESSED. I didn’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) GET DRESSED before I GOT THE KIDS UP, but um, GET THE KIDS UP AND, BURKE usually, you know, DRESSES HIMSELF IF I KIND OF LAY HIS THINGS OUT(unexpected, she just went into detail about AFTER the murder: Burke requires much help. BEFORE the murder he “dresses himself”) and that kind of stuff, but I would get JonBenet dressed and do her hair and all that and . . .

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla


I think the detectives are questioning her about solid evidence: a check.

TT: Okay. Kind of a, who handles the finances for the family, the checkbooks, pays the bills, that kind of stuff?
PR: He does.
TT: Okay.
PR: Usually.(extra info)
TT: John takes care of all that kind of stuff?
PR: Well, I HAVE A CHECKBOOK that I WRITE, you know( trying to convince), my kind of, THE PERSONAL THINGS, you know(trying to convince), like, whatever, housekeepers or household kind of stuff, you know(trying to convince), but, he usually does (inaudible).( order-personal things, housekeepers, household etc.)
TT: And that’s, particularly what your talking about, that’s, those kind of personal . . .
PR: You know (trying to convince)like LAUNDRY . . .
TT: . . .housekeeping stuff.
PR: . . .and you know(ttc).
TT: Is that the checkbook you wrote the check to Linda Hoffman out of?
PR: UH HUH.(positive)
TT: Okay. And that’s uh, she was going to borrow $2,000 is that right?
PR: RIGHT.(Positive)
TT: On uh, the, on Friday the 26th? That’s when she was due back in the house. Christmas was Wednesday.
PR: RIGHT. Oh yeah, I think THAT’S RIGHT, yeah.
TT: Okay. Do you remember if you ever wrote her a check for that $2,000, because I know she talked about it.
PR: RIGHT. I don’t think I DID, because I THINK, I WAS THINKING about THAT AS I WALKED (shows tension “walked”)DOWN THE STAIRS THAT MORNING, that I, oh, I’VE GOT TO REMEMBER to leave(missing info) THAT CHECK.
TT: Okay.
PR: And then (skips time)everything BROKE LOOSE.
TT: Okay. She never picked it up or anything. She never stopped by later and got the $2,000.
PR: I don’t (paper rustling causes Patsy’s voice to be inaudible) LEFT (missing info)THAT DAY so I don’t know WHAT HAPPENED.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean(extra info,shows sensitivity) I didn’t write THE CHECK(reported in the negative), SO.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
PR: GET HIM OUT THE DOOR(door referencing can be a sign of abuse)


PR: Oh, he, he(stammering) um, usually DOES HIS HOMEWORK and then(skips time) PUTS HIS PAJAMAS ON and sometimes RELUCTANTLY and . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: HE LOVES TO WATCH Discovery so HE TRIES TO, but HE’S SUPPOSE TO BE READING a half hour a night, so we would read to him A LITTLE BIT or he would read to himself and so HE WAS GENERALLY PRETTY GOOD ABOUT GOING TO BED.
TT: Okay.

TT: Burke also has a TV in his room, right.
PR: Well, THE TV doesn’t really work. HE USED IT FOR VIDEOS.
TT: Okay. He also, what kind of videos was he playing?
PR: HE LOVES ANYTHING that has to do with
PR: Oh yeah. He loves airplanes, LIKE JOHN.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla



PR: Well, JONBENET WAS IN HER BED IN HER ROOM.( unexpected, implies she had a bed elsewhere) . .
TT: Okay.
PR: . . .and BURKE WAS IN HIS BED and WE SLEPT IN OUR ROOM.
TT: Okay. Do you have an idea if JonBenet moved over towards Burke’s room at all that night. Slept in his room?
PR: Um, I CAN’T REMEMBER, CAN’T REMEMBER(repeated, sensitive).
TT: Okay. Is that something that she would normally do?
PR: No.
TT: Sleep in Burke’s room. I know everybody’s got, you got, they both have two beds in their rooms.
PR: YEAH, RIGHT (positive, unexpected sensitivity to sleeping arrangements.) um, I don’t think so. I just(qualifier) CAN’T REMEMBER.(lots of sensitivity about JonBenet sleeping in the extra bed in Burkes room. The housekeeper might remember)

Anonymous said...

Wow, I didn't know that about the "Do you like surprises?" and childhood sexual abuse victims.
I'm an adult who was abused by an older sister. I've never told my family, even when confronted by my mom at age six. I've taken anti depressants since I was 14. I also HATE surprises.I'd never connected that to sex abuse before.
Anon for this post

Ivy said...

I have always been curious about the Burke killed JonBennet theory but have generally been disinclined to believe that was what happened. But I have to say, there seems to be a LOT of sensitivity indicators in both this first part and the remainder of the interview regarding Burke, what he did when they got home, when he went to bed, JonBennet sleeping in his room, etc. It seems off the charts. Also their odd reaction to police questions about Burke possibly being heard on the phone -- I mean, I realize that is inconsistent with their prior story, so that would be problematic to them, but why have that be part of the story at all, that Burke didn't wake up when they found JonBenet was missing and called the police -- assuming he was there, what difference does that make? Maybe he heard/saw things when he was up that he shouldn't have, and saying he was asleep avoids questions about it. Or maybe it's just erasing him from the whole story, but then why wouldn't they have said, he went to bed when he got home too? There may be other reasons for it, but this bit with the golf club seems more meaningful than it might otherwise in that context. I also recall something about how at some later date, the Ramseys were going to partake in other interviews, but they decided not to or something because there was too much focus on Burke? Am I remembering this wrong? I am still disinclined to accept the Burke did it theory, but the transcript seems very sensitive about him. This case is such a puzzle -- my head hurts just thinking about all the pieces. I have also wondered about the significance of the 911 call placed from the house on the 23rd (or 24th? I think it was the 23rd though when they had a lot of people over) It was a hang up call. Is that just a coincidence? It could easily be, or not.

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
Ivy said...Maybe he heard/saw things when he was up that he shouldn't have
I agree.
PR: Um, I don’t know. I DID NOT PUT BURKE TO BED.
I think he was in the basement torturing JonBenet while the parents were in their room for 30 minutes.

PR: I don’t KNOW EXACTLY. Maybe HALF HOUR I THINK, I don’t, I can’t REMEMBER EXACTLY.
ST: And it was shortly after you went to bed that John then came to bed?
PR: RIGHT

Anonymous said...

Please help find Ayla
PR: She just, SHE WAS REALLY ZONKED.
I think this describes the head injury Patsy accidently inflicted.

Anonymous said...

PR: I usually leave it CRACKED A LITTLE BIT.