Sunday, May 11, 2014

McCann Case: David Payne Statement Analyzed

Was Madeline McCann moved in a bag? David Payne was asked about this.

Taken from David Paynes rogatory statement, answering a question about the 'bag'. He insists Gerry didn't have one. 1485 "What about a kit bag' Would they have a kit bag with them?"
Reply "Err he certainly didn't have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a 

squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn't have anything that

would call a kit bag from days when I played''

In the SCAN technique of Statement Analysis, as taught by Avinoam Sapir (LSI SCAN) we recognize that each individual has a personal, subjective, internal dictionary and it is the work of SCAN to "decode" this.

For example, in teaching interviewing, I ask people to write down what comes to mind when I say the word "boy" aloud.

This word would appear to be quite simple, and not in need of definition nor clarity. Not so.

Here are some of the responses to the word "boy":

1. Newborn at the hospital
2. 21 year old adult in the military
3. 8 year old in Little League
4. 25 year old who has "failed to launch"

Note the distance between in the ages alone! This is why SCAN does not "interpret" one's words, but seeks to enter into the subject's own personal dictionary. Exempt from this principle are:

Objective Time on a Clock

Pronouns are instinctive and highly reliable for guidance. When one says "we", we know that the one was not alone, for example.

Articles are also instinctive and are reliable: "I met a man and he drew the gun on me..." Uh oh.

Therefore, a follow up question (or two) is necessary to allow the subject to interpret for himself. This is critical in the topic of human sexuality, as President Clinton has well exampled.

"I was making love to her" spoken in 1945 means something entirely different than the exact same words spoken today.

We now need to know what a "kit bag" is, especially since it comes from a different culture. The subject, himself, gives us some help:

Err he certainly didn't have a great big tennis bag or a, you know

The word "certainly" indicates sensitivity about having a bag. "Certainly" indicates that he wants us to accept something without question. We do not.

Next, we note that he does not say that "he" did not have a bag, only that he did not have a "great big" tennis bag. Follow up questions:

What kind of bag did he have?
Did he have a tennis bag?
Was it a small bag?
Was it a big bag, but not a "great" big bag?

We use the subject's own words and get him to clarify for us.

For him, it is not just a bag, and it is not just a big bag, but a "great big bag"

The words, "you know" are a habit of speech, and like any habit, we note when it arises and when it does not. It shows an acuteawareness of the presne e of the Interviewer or the audience. I use it when I get a bit nervous before a crowd, for a variety of reasons, but especially when bringing forth a principle that I know will be initially resisted. The Reliable Denial, when in the presence of law enforcement students, is one such point. Jaded from street interviews, it is difficult to get them to accept this phenomena because it appears too simple. I understand. I trusted Mr. Sapir's judgement because I was so impressed with his work, that I presupposed it to be true. Thousands of interviews (not hundreds) has only confirmed his genius for me, and the high level of reliability of this principle.

err I mean I used to be a 

squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn't have anything that

would call a kit bag from days when I played''

As parents of kids over than 7 know, where there is a "that", there is a "this."

"I didn't do that, Mom!" means that the child did something. Just not "that", and a follow up question will show what it is the little boy did!

"The teacher said you ran after Sally Sue and pulled her hair!" "I didn't do that, Mom!" is true enough: he didn't run after her when he pulled her hair: she was standing right next to him.

The repetition of being a "squash player" is sensitive, as he uses it as a way to persuade that he would know what "that" bag looks like. I believe that they did not have a squash bag which would be "that", but this indicates that they did have a bag ("this") which is, as a "semi professional" can attest to!

Note that "certainly" is repeated, further weakening his assertion. He is deceptive. He is truthful that they likely did not have the same bag he had when he played semi professional squash, but his purpose of persuading us reveals his own weakness. The bag may have been very close to a squash bag ("when I played" is even further weakening) and likely some squash players today use it (just not when he played!).

This is a bit of "linguistic gymnastic" stretching of words, which belie the need to stretch. Simple truth would have looked like this:

"They didn't have a bag."

If he is not able nor willing to say this, we won't say it for him. Next comes the admission that there was a bag, but before we leave the statement, did you "follow the pronouns" in your analysis?

He went from "he" to "they."


1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you 

know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn't a big tennis, you 

know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, 

it would have been just purely, if they had anything''

The subject is cutely aware that the inference is not putting a tennis racquet in the bag, but a small child. His repetition of "tennis racquet" (as seen in repetition) allows us to know that he is not plainly speaking of what he knows.


John Mc Gowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Why does he mention "put water in"???

John Mc Gowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ellie said...

Typo...Should be "suspect is acutely aware".

Tania Cadogan said...

Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that,

Oh dear open mouth insert foot.

Here we see the guilty knowledge creeping in, with the word HIDE

Who goes around hiding tennis racquets in bags, who would even have the thought of hiding a tennis racquet in a bag?

Hide is sensitive in relation to the tennis bag or any bag.

There was a big blue bag as the PJ photos show it in situ in the wardrobem which just so happenes to be where Eddie the cadaver dog alerted to and which mysteriously vanished along with the pink Blanket.

I would show the mccanns and chums the photo of the bag in situ and ask where is it, what happened to it, who moved it? why was it moved, why can't it be presented now?

Tania Cadogan said...

Extract from David Payne's rogatory statement to Leicestershire Police on 10 April 2008

"Mmm..., errr... Madeleine's, errr... a very striking, errr... beautiful child, I'd almost - if I want a better phrase - call her doll-like, you know. She was very, you know, I think, you know, very unique looking child, errr... she'd got very pretty, you know, blonde hair, errr... in a bob, she was quite a petite, errr... child and, you know, she was very bubbly, very, errr... you know, she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine, errr... and, you know, she, she was, you know, Kate and Gerry's, you know, pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know, with IVF and everything and, you know, Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know, the iris defect, errr... but, you know, she was certainly a happy go lucky child, you know, she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know, she played very happily with Lily and, you know, indeed the other children. She was, you know, very... she is a very beautiful child and good fun."


"You know, I, you know, a fact I've come across already you know, she was a... she's a very bright child, you know, she wouldn't be the kind of mischievous child who, you know, and just try and get out of the flat and, you know, get up to mischief and that, you know, there's fun in all children but she certainly wasn't that kind of child. She was very bright."

charlotte from denmark said...

"I was making love to her"

How is this different in 1945 and today?

Is this something an english spoken person will know? I ask, because I am not, and to me they seem the same.

Anonymous said...

I'm confused on this also....elaborate Peter please???....:)

Anonymous said...

In Hobnobs extract '(posted above) Payne describes Madeleine by using the PAST tense .... and over a dozen times in one short paragraph.

One would expect him to use the present tense at some point surely? Unless, of course, he knows that she is dead.

Yukari said...

Charlotte - not a native speaker but I believe in 1945, "making love to someone" was used in the sense of "to flirt with" or "to woo", "making compliments to win someone´s heart"; perhaps also in the sense of lovers kissing and cuddling - at least when used in public.

Today, however, "making love" is definitely referring to full sexual intercourse.

Statement Analysis Blog said...

Yukari is correct.

"Making love to..." was a verbal attempt to arouse interest. circa 1930's and 1940's.

Today, it is intercourse.

Mary said...

In every interview, all these folks sure do use a lot of the words err, uh, um, etc. I think Hobnob's conclusion of the kids being bathed by another adult, in another room is spot on. Having been said that whatever happened was so bad, the entire group went along with a coverup & I also stick to my hypothesis that the parents trusted the doctors to sedate their kids every night so they could go out & enjoy themselves. It's the only scenario I can imagine why all the parents would cover up for each other- allowing your kids to be sedated for the parents to have fun, a la Casey Anthony, is a sure fire way of having your kids taken from the parents.

Also, I believe Maddie was a victim of abuse at some point, but I cannot imagine every parent agreeing to a coverup for that reason, friends or not. I know I wouldn't go along with it and I think if readers ask themselves if they would go along with such a coverup, their answer would be no, as well.

It's creepy how one of Maddie's parents described her as beautiful over & over & over again. Even during his supposed last check, he said he paused to admire her beauty. Did she have no other outstanding qualities besides her beauty in his eyes?

Because of what they allowed to happen to all the kids by their trusted doctor friends, I think every one of the parents are forced to keep their mouths shut, to prevent their kids being taken. If you'd allowed your kids to be sedated by another person, just so you could leave them to have fun, would you admit to it? One parent being left to babysit the kids wouldn't result in having kids removed. One parent abusing one or more kids wouldn't result in kids being removed from their care, if they were innocent. Sedating all the kids is the only reason I can imagine as to why every parent would lie to authorities & continue in a coverup years later. Just my opinion. (Thanks Hobnob for further explaining your bath theory so I'd understand. I agree with you.)

RIP Maddie. Hopefully one day authorities will solve this case but sadly, I'm not very hopeful. As Kate said herself, Maddie's body is hidden where it will never be found :(

Anonymous said...

It used to mean with words, loving looks, maybe flirting and kissing, but nothing intimate in the way it does today.

trustmeigetit said...

Now, with David and the past tense, being that hes not the father…..and since it was about a year after Madeline disapeared that his statement was made that Hobs posted where he used the past tense……
Would that still mean he knew she was dead? Or with that amount of time, without the parental link, would it be safe to say he just assumed she was dead. Or since she had been gone so long, to him she “was” sweet. He doesn’t know her or see her anymore. Just curious how that applies in this case.

But I do have to say that his description of her is way over the top.
I have friends with kids that are actually even my god children and named after me.
If someone asked me to tell them about them, it would be short. I would not go on and on the way he does. Like I would say things like cute, silly, spunky etc.
He comes across more like a man who inappropriately adores this child. More like what I would expect to see with someone talking about their crush or new partner. I know a lot of talk has been made about him being a pedophile and that comment really made those accusations stand out to me.
And not only that, I have seen other statements that Madeline was a handful. Was very strong willed and even while on that trip ran away from her parents in defiance. Also, she had a sleep chart at home where she was rewarding for STAYING IN BED. Hello. So much for sleeps thru the night.
So again, he is trying to make her seem so docile. She was not.

trustmeigetit said...

Not sure if this means something different to the British (Hobs?) or Portuguese. But helped me.

KIT BAG (noun)

Sense 1


A knapsack (usually for a soldier)

Classified under:

Nouns denoting man-made objects


kit bag; kitbag

Hypernyms ("kit bag" is a kind of...):

back pack; backpack; haversack; knapsack; packsack; rucksack (a bag carried by a strap on your back or shoulder)

trustmeigetit said...

FROM THE PJ FILES. Statement and link

It is revealed that police want to trace a blue tennis bag allegedly taken from Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment on the night Madeleine went missing. Detectives think the hold-all could have been used to carry Madeleine as she was taken away, or even to transport the three-year-old's body. It belonged to the girl's father but has not been seen since the night of May 3, according to a Sky News documentary due to be broadcast on Christmas Eve.

Expert Tony Rogers, who reviews unsolved cases for British police and worked on the Soham investigation, said: "If it's a bag of a size that could be used to take a child away from the flat, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer." But McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell flatly denied that Mr McCann had lost a bag during the family's holiday. He said: "As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag. They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine."

Interesting how Clarence runs around the question…… Starting with “as far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag”. The way he words that is so off. Instead of saying “There is not a bag missing” he says that there is not but only “as far as Kate and Gerry are concerned”. Well yah, if they know where it is at. Then says “they came back from holiday with everything except…”. Still does not account for the bag missing. They may very well have brought it back later. But it was missing at one point. There are pics of the bag and it was later missing when police asked for it.

The other thing that went missing was Madeline’s pink blanket. It was on her bed in police photographs. This is a snippet from Goncolo along with the link. The fact that the blanket fibers were ALSO found in the town care convinced me they kept the blanket with her body.

“The former inspector thought that it was odd that that blanket went missing in the immediate days that followed, when searches where made to locate the child. And he highlights, that incidentally, textile fibres (in connection with the cadaver odour scented by the British dogs) were detected in the Renault Scenic that the McCann couple rented in the Algarve and which was used in a long and mysterious trip that they made to Spain.

S + K Mum said...

All the past tense references from Payne and describing m as doll like....very unsettling! Perhaps the blue holdall belonged to him or someone else in the group and nobody wants to admit to owning it ? It was def pictured in the mccamns apartment and during the time I have spent looking through files and photographs I am certain I saw a photo of Payne on a chair (looked like a balcony of hotel apt with glass doors behind him) and a similar bag was visible. I will try to find it.
How possible is it that surveillance footage from airports would show any of the groups luggage, when leaving England then arriving on holiday in Portugal?

Anonymous said...

It's a bad example and not a way of speaking that I'm aware of but I get his point. Try not to read so much into the use of the example, and realise that the point he's trying to make is old ways of speaking mean different thins today. A better and more classic example would be "I'm having such a gay time".

Unknown said...

David sure did like calling her child ...

Katmallo said...

The blue rectangular bag in the closet in the photos is a cot bag for one of the travel cribs provided by the resort management. I have had a travel crib/cot and it comes with the same bag. I assume the bag was moved when they moved the twins and their cribs to another unit w in the resort. I can't say whether the bag was empty @ that time, who brought the twins, who brought the cribs, or who brought the bag. Nor can I remember if they went to one of the tapas groups apts or if the mccanns ended up on a different empty unit. If they took the bag with the cots and the twins to any of the additional units that were deemed "interesting" by the sniffer dogs....well......

R2 said...

Has anyone noticed the blue bag Clarence is carrying right here? Anyone know when this was taken?