Thursday, October 30, 2014

Statement Analysis: Jian Ghomeshi Victim Speaks Out







One of the alleged victims from Jian  Ghomeshi has spoken out to media.  This is the transcription of the interview. I have added analysis of the answers in bold type, with emphasis added to assist the reader's understanding of Statement Analysis.  

It is difficult interviewing a sexual abuse victim because certain questions can be indelicate and may be misconstrued as lacking empathy for a victim, yet must be asked.  



Q.  Can you describe that first date you had?

A.  Well, he first asked me to come to a taping of his show, and I did, and after the show, you know, he he noticed me at the show and he… and he lit up and it was like you came. And uh, we hung out a little bit with some of his colleagues and then we went off alone to a pub and y-- just chatted and there was absolutely nothing about that, that gave me any indication that there was anything to worry about or you know he was charming, like that would be the word I would give Jhian, is charming. And, then after he drove me back to my car, and we chatted in the car, and we, and he was getting flirty, so in the car he you know, was looking like he wanted to do a little more, and then he asked me if he, if I would undo my buttons, and I said no, because I didn’t know you. And he reached over and grabbed my hair very hard and pulled my head back. And it really took me off guard, but I I don’t know precisely exactly what he was saying, but I, I’m thinking it was something along the lines of do you like this and and I don’t know what I said, but it was a week night and it was late and I had to go.

Notice in her answer the use of the pronoun "we", which shows, to this point, a connection to him.  

Note that when "there was absolutely nothing" about potential aggressive assaultive behavior, that it is sensitive to her.  This sensitivity may be the obvious, given the reason for the interview:  How could you not have known?  

Note also that "he reached over and grabbed my hair very hard" is past tense and strong, but it also has "reached over" which shows that she did, in fact, want physical distance from him. (seating proximity)  In order to grab her hair, in her recollection, she likely had moved away from him.  

What he was saying was not "precisely, exactly" known, which would have prompted me to ask follow up questions, in the least, to learn why the subject did not want to repeat what he said.  This can be very difficult with victims.  She gave "along the lines" of what he said "do you like this?", which may be embarrassing for her.  She also may be uncomfortable with her own answer to him.  

That he was a celebrity and she a fan puts her at a distinct disadvantage looking up to her.  It can cause self doubt: 
Q.  How did you feel about that? When you finally, you got out of the car then you got in your own car, what were you thinking when about that experience?

A.  Well, First I didn’t like it, and that’s not my style, uhm but also did did I miss something not dating for a while or, and also I kind of put to that if a couple gets together there is always a little learning curve and it could be you know, don’t hit me so hard or don’t kiss me like that or whatever, but uh that wasn’t part of my repertoire ever. So I just kind of, I was more shy and I just thought I’d figure it out later.


An honest answer.  She doubted herself, instead of doubting him.  

Q.  Why did you agree to see him again?

A.  Because like I said, I hadn’t dated for a while and I did like him. And and all the time I spent with him up to that point was great, there was nothing about him that I that I didn’t like, and that I though you know maybe he’s just a little too rough and I can sort it out.

"like I said" is a self reference and she is recalling what she just stated.  This indicates that she anticipated the question being asked before it was. 

Q.  What happened on the second date?

A.  Well I went to another taping of the show, but we didn’t hang out after that, but then I went to another one and there was a big snowstorm, and a girlfriend of mine came, and so, on, at the end of the night, we had we had taken the subway, and didn’t drive that night because it was too treacherous, so at the end of the night he asked me to come out with him, and I said, well my, I have my friend here, and he and he agreed to drop her at a subway, and then we went on to his house, and then we, when we were at his house it was fine, it was, he you know, put some music on, I was, you know looking at his living room, and he had some interesting things in there, and uh, you know, again, we were flirty, and but in that flirting he grabbed my hair again, but even harder, threw me in front of him, on the ground and started closed fist pounding me on my head, repeatedly, until my ears were ringing, and I started to cry.

When asked what happened on the second date, the subject begins with her location:

"I went to another taping of the show" indicating her priority.  He was a celebrity and she was at the location in which he gained his status.  This is very important to her.  She then gets to the specifics of the second date:


"I was, you know, looking at his living room" indicates that she may have been impressed.  She began at the taping and now is the celebrity's home.  Note "at his house" caused the pronoun "we" to enter. 

"We were flirty" is also unity evidenced.  "But" stops the point and leads to "that flirting", with "that"showing immediate distancing language, with the assault.

Note the past tense language commitment. 
Note that which began, "crying" but not completed.  


Q.  Did you struggle?

A.  Uhh, I was, no, I was, it was, I was in shock, and when you get hit in the head everything rings, and you know it’s hard to do anything, but try to, you know there was no conversation, about I like, you know, some..anything, and uh he didn’t ask me if I like to be hit, he didn’t ask me, uh you know I wasn’t expecting it, and he hit me repeatedly. And..


The question is answered with "no" but the question, itself, triggered a reaction of sensitivity in the subject. 

"You know" shows an acute awareness of the interviewer at this question.  

"You" is distancing language as if common to all.  This question, although answered, is very sensitive.  This is expected in assault victims:  why they did not struggle; why they did not run,  why they did not make an immediate report, and so on.  It is common particularly in sexual abuse victims.  
Q.  On the head? Always on the head?

A.  On the head, yeah, on the si..., on one side of my head over and over, and on the, and I’m on the floor and I’m and then I’m in tears and he, he said you need to go.


Note:  "I started crying" with the move into present tense language here:  "I'm on the floor and I'm and then I'm in tears" may be PTSD-like reliving of assault.  Note that she then was able to say what he said, in past tense, "he said you need to go" and not "he says..."

This would indicate an "end" at this point, of re-living the memory. 


Q.  What did you say?

A.   I don’t, I didn’t say much at all after that. I got in a cab and cried all the way to my friend’s place, I didn’t even go home, I was I was, a mess, I went to my friend’s place and stayed at her house and cried all night.

Note that she does not mention him here.  His 'absence' from her statement is consistent with not saying "much" at all after "that."

Note "cried all night" has completion.  
Q.  Your friend is a nurse isn’t she?

A.  Yes.

Q.  We’ve spoken with her and she says this you did arrive in this state.

A.  Yes.

Q.  What did she, what what state where you in when you arrived at your friend’s house?

A.  In tears, I was I was just a mess, and she you know, was  saying typical friend things like you know he’s not worth it, and you can do better and you know, and and at this point it’s like wow why did I even, you know, cause I, as I said I hadn’t been dating, and she was she was comforting in a typical friend way, and but but, you know people have asked my why didn’t you press charges or, that’s that’s a tough one.

Q.  Why didn’t you?

A.  Because it’s too difficult to prove, it’s embarrassing, in the moment you’re, you know myself I was so distraught, all I wanted to do was curl up in a corner, I didn’t you know, I I wasn’t expecting to go out with this man who was seemingly charming and nice, and you know I come from an an educated family and I thought wow my dad would really like you. And then to get physically abused like that it was it was shocking, I re.. I didn’t expect it at all.

Another common response from victims of assault where sexuality is in play (date assault). She was asked "why", so answering "because"is appropriate.  

Embarrassed:  she then gives the reason why she is embarrassed:  family. 

That she mentions "physical" abuse suggests that she may have felt emotional abuse from him:  the insult of it.  I would like to ask about this. 
Q.  Did your friend who is a nurse, did she see the any physical signs of this beating?

A.  Uhm, no, no. She, well not that she mentioned. If any..he hit me on the head, so and I wasn’t bleeding, and I wasn’t, it was just more of a, the trauma of being hit in the head.


This may be the 'emotional abuse' she is considering:  she was on a date, it was romantic, and there was no warning or expectation of an assault. 

We look for more linguistic signals of PTSD-like symptoms in her language: 
Q.  There was no need to seek medical attention then?

A.  No.
Q.  Did you think anytime, as this as you said this happened more than a decade ago, did you think at any time when you rev..review that you should have gone to the police?

A.  Yes. I I absolutely did, and the thing is, it, I couldn’t just you know forget about it, I was constantly reminded, and I’m remarried now and my husband knows about it, but every time we hear Jian on television, or you know for commercials for CBC or or anything, I I have tur turn it off quickly, cause I, I I can never look at him without thinking of this, I can’t understand why this man who, he’s he’s such a great tv personality and radio personality has this dark dark side to him and, and it’s been hard because I’ve I’ve had to to suppress it and just put it you know, down to some bad experience, but then when this came to light, uhm a few days ago, it almost, it gave me permission to speak and I thought maybe someone will listen to me now, because I don’t think if I had said anything back then that anyone would care.


The reminder is an embarrassment to her.  


Q.  Did you compare notes with anyone, you know of some of his circle of friends, did you ever feel that you should say, hey does, do you know if this happened to anybody else?

A.  No. There’s actually only one person in his circle of friends that I’m speaking to, because it’s a very sensitive subject with the rest, and because, you know it’s hard for some people to understand because they’ve only seen the side that I saw and to see that other side you have to be behind closed doors.

"No" is the response.  She asked a compound question, so the second part of her response is to the second portion of the question. 


Note "closed doors" continues theme of embarrassment.  Embarrassment is not only due to being from an "educated" family; but fear of not being believed.  

Q.  He has written as you know a Facebook post, Jian Ghomeshi says in this that he has adventurous forms of sex that includes dominance and submission, and that, anything, that is, that any implication that this was not consensual is a lie. What do you say to that?

A.  That’s what made me...the… enfuriated me, because there was nothing to to prepare me for this, nothing, there was no talk, other than what I said in the car when he pulled my hair, I think he might have been saying, do you like it rough, but there was no we’re gonna you know engage in this type of play, we were we were fully clothed we weren’t having sex, we weren’t even, we weren’t even at that point, you know of, you know in our in our our time together our relationship, so there was nothing. It came out of nowhere, and and and during that time you’re wondering, or I was wondering, if is he going to keep beating me? What is this? This isn’t something I’m familiar with. I don’t understand why he didn’t say to me, OK I like to do this and this and this, and this, and I’m gonna, you know when you’re not looking I’m gonna start hitting you in the head and throw you on the floor.

Note that being "infuriated" is not simply because of the post, but the subject reveals that she is upset with herself:  "there was no talk, other than what I said in the car..."


She blames herself.  

Q.  And why did he stop?

A.  Probably because of my tears.

Q.  And?

A.  And he realized that Uh I maybe I wasn’t game, or I I really don’t I don’t know it, 




Q.  What do you want to happen with your story, telling your story. What do you, what he’s been fired, what what where do you want this to go, what do you want people to do with what you are saying to them now?

A.  Well now now that it’s not just me against him, I wish that there was some way that I could press charges against him now. It’s been a long time, I don’t know that I can any more.


"it's not just me against him" reveals that she expected not to be believed.  This explains sensitivity.  
Q.  Have you been in touch with other women? Or attempting to get in touch with them.

A.  No No I don’t I don’t know any of the other women.
Analysis Conclusion:  the subject is telling the truth, working from memory.  She speaks strongly, in the past tense, except when she appears to be reliving the event, as confirmed with her beginning to cry, and then moves back to past tense.  This is a pattern we sometimes see with sexual assault victims who have unprocessed trauma to cope with.  

Subject is truthful. 

43 comments:

Suzanne said...

OT: Tyson visited "Opie Radio" on Sirius XM earlier this week and opened up about how an old creepy man he didn't know abducted him and abused him roughly 41 years ago.

During the interview, Tyson explained ... "[the man] bullied me, sexually abused me and stuff ... snatched me off the street. I was a little kid. Never seen him again."

Mike says he never spoke with police about the incident.

When asked if he was emotionally scarred -- Mike told Opie he's just not sure.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com#ixzz3HfIWVhRf

http://www.tmz.com/2014/10/30/mike-tyson-i-was-sexually-molested-as-a-child/

C5H11ONO said...

"That she mentions "physical" abuse suggests that she may have felt emotional abuse from him: the insult of it. I would like to ask about this."
--I suspect that when he unleashed his wrath upon her he was verbally abusive as well which may have been pretty shocking as well during his attack upon her. I can only imagine the filth he must have spewed.

This creep was assaulting women, period! I "Googled" him and saw so many pictures of him with women, and all I could think of is, these poor women all must have experienced the same trauma and remained quiet because of the embarrassment. And I wondered if they were photographed on a first date and thought oh my goodness, they are so happy in that photo, and how unsuspecting they look prior to him taking them to his house and brutalizing them. It is clear to see why there aren't any that stuck around!

Peter Hyatt said...

I agree.

There are things he said that she might be embarrassed to reveal as if waiting for the Interviewer to pronounce her an "idiot", or "Why did you just take that nonsense?" type of questions.

Thank you for your effort in the transcription.

Peter

C5H11ONO said...

I want you to know that should a potential employer polygraph me, and ask me if I've ever stolen, in a nanosecond I will remember the countless hours I've spent on statement analysis "exercises" I've done during working hours and I'll be forced to say "yes"! I read the blog daily, I have done SA of statements, I've streamed Casey and Jodi's trials just for SA practice and I've transcribed. I've even done SA on my bosses.. All from my desk at work! I worry about this! How can I explain that one to a polygrapher?

You are most welcome and I'll gladly help out again.

Peter Hyatt said...

employers don't use polygraphs today like they did in the past. They are too concerned with law suits.

The fact that they do not use the polygraph makes room for....


me!

Peter

Anonymous said...

I do not understand why she calls it a date;it wasn't. Sounds more like a bait. Yep, bait and attack.

If he hit her on the head where hair is, no bruising would have been noticed by the nurse.

It's great that you are finding your isolated niche, Peter! No more polygraphs, no more confusion.

Anonymous said...

Peter, I do not know if her story can qualify as sexual abuse but more phsical assualt.

She admits she was chasing him: Going to a taping, then another though the roads were dangerous. Then she sends her "friend" off into the brutal weather alone to fiend for herself while she is the one taking the beating.(Perhaps the basis for her guilt).

This type of attention would be perfect for a narcisitic abuser (can't spell).

Point to be made: There was never a date! Period.

Peter Hyatt said...

The reason I list this as a sexual assault is because of the setting of romance, which means the expectation is gentle, loving, etc.

This sets up for a severe shock.

Anonymous said...

Peter you are so right !

Kellie said...

That guy performs a commando style ambush and considers it "hot" love making! It's hot to him to see a woman battered and bruised.

He says he hasn't done anything wrong. Translation: I did exactly what they are saying, but to me it isn't wrong, no matter what anyone else thinks! Typical sexual predator.

Anonymous said...

OT: "I'm sticking with my story"
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2014/10/31/ctn-intv-dorian-johnson-michael-brown-shooting.cnn&video_referrer=

Buckley said...

I wouldn't be able to say this if I hadn't learned so much from Peter here, but This is a lousy, biased analysis.

All her sensitivity indicators are excused or explained away in a manner never seen before here. Anon is right, this is physical assault. The loving gentle expectation is analyst projection. She even calls it physical abuse.

The "you know"s and repeated "I"s, stuttering, are all ignored or explained away on the predetermined assumption she's telling the truth.

""You know" shows an acute awareness of the interviewer at this question."

Usually, we have been told this is a desire to take information for granted. Why is this phrase treated differently here? Present tense is excused as PTSD? Distancing "you" is explained away. Changing course in mid- sentence is ignored.

"but I I don’t know precisely exactly what he was saying, but I, I’m thinking it was something along the lines of do you like this and I don’t know what I said, but it was a week night and it was late and I had to go."

No underlined flags there at all?

" there was nothing to to prepare me for this, nothing, there was no talk, other than what I said in the car when he pulled my hair, I think he might have been saying, do you like it rough, but there was no we’re gonna you know engage in this type of play, "

No flags? She's stating what didn't happen.

" I don’t understand why he didn’t say to me, OK I like to do this and this and this, and this, and I’m gonna, you know when you’re not looking I’m gonna start hitting you in the head and throw you on the floor."

Nothing?

I think he hit her and pulled her hair and she should have pressed charges against him, but there are sensitivity indicators all around the parts where we try to determine what dialogue between them took place. If we are following principle, we should be questioning what she is leaving out and not simply writing it off as victim nervousness. The fact that one subject seems to be an asshole and one seems a sweet young victim shouldn't change the analysis.

Buckley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Buckley said...

Apologies for all this, but forgot to add:

"I kind of put to that if a couple gets together there is always a little learning curve and it could be you know, don’t hit me so hard"

What is that? Has she been physically assaulted by other men?

Anonymous said...

The 'learning curve' comment may have come from her being mesmorised by his charm, wit, and celebrity status. The peak of the curve would be standing in the living room admiring his things. The plummeting downside-the ambush~

She was young at the time and unable to read the clear signals of abuse, the first being the yanking of hair.

Buckley said...

She's naive, sure, It's the "so hard" part of it (as opposed to simply "Don't hit me.") I find unexpected.

LovePat said...

Buckley- I agree with you.

What stood out for me is when she said about the learning curve "don't hit me SO HARD". Not don't hit me, but don't hit me SO HARD.
I think she had a Booty Call and really wanted more (like his money and fame too).
The ""victim's"" story is dubious.
She supposedly gets assaulted and her friend says basically Don't be upset, "he's not worth it???"
That is NOT what a friend would say to an assault victim.
My conclusion- He was a Cad, she was not a Victim.
P.S. A little hair pulling is HOT

Jem said...

Buckley - I listened to the interview. The learning curve she referred to was not *kissing* so hard.

And as for the you know and the ums, I eagerly await Peter's comments, but I thought it was about the fact that she's been reading the news (it's everywhere here, multiple stories in every paper for days), and she knew that she would be doubted, she knew that they would be criticizing her, she's stating what didn't happen because she's responding to the BDSM claims Jian made that were being used against her and other victims to undermine abuse allegations, etc. Also, probably from re-playing the event in her head over the last 10 years with all of the doubt and the "I should've done x,y,z different, I should've known what would happen, if I'd realized, then this wouldn't have happened."

john said...

I agree with Buckley on this. If we go by principle's, there are a lot red flags within her statement that are usually noted.

Q. Can you describe that first date you had?

A. Well, he first asked me to come to a taping of his show, and I did, and after the show, you know, he he noticed me at the show and he… and he lit up and it was like you came

Notice her she says "Well", we note this as a pause and to by time to think. Why would she need time to think ? This experience i would guess would be etched in her mind,

and after the show

Is this a skip in time (Temporal Lacunae) and missing information ?

She repeats "show" x 3 making it very sensitive.

And uh, we hung out a little bit

When the word "and" begins a sentence, it means that there is missing information in between the sentences, as "and" is a word used to connect.

we hung out a little bit

How long is a little bit ?

with some of his colleagues and

Distancing language.

and then we went off alone to a pub

Temporal Lacunae.

and y-- just chatted and there was absolutely nothing about that, that gave me any indication that there was anything to worry about or you know he was charming, like that would be the word I would give Jhian, is charming.

What were they chatting about ?

and y-- just chatted and there was absolutely nothing about that

Stutter, what was she going to say ?

"Absolutely" qualifier.

"That"

Distancing language. Yet she doesn't tell us what "that" is ?

"Charming" x2

And, then after he drove me back to my car,

And then

Skip in time, missing information ?

Follow the pronouns.

and we, and he was getting flirty


he asked me if he, if I would undo my buttons, and I said no, because I didn’t know you. And he reached over and grabbed my hair very hard and pulled my head back.

More missing information.

And it really took me off guard, but I I don’t know precisely exactly what he was saying, but I, I’m thinking it was something along the lines of do you like this and and I don’t know what I said, but it was a week night and it was late and I had to go.

I don’t know what I said, but it was a week night and it was late and I had to go

This is said in the negative and is noted as sensitive.

Q. How did you feel about that? When you finally, you got out of the car then you got in your own car, what were you thinking when about that experience?

A. Well, First I didn’t like it, and that’s not my style, uhm but also did did I miss something not dating for a while or, and also I kind of put to that if a couple gets together there is always a little learning curve and it could be you know, don’t hit me so hard or don’t kiss me like that or whatever, but uh that wasn’t part of my repertoire ever. So I just kind of, I was more shy and I just thought I’d figure it out later.

She pauses again before answering, this is usually flagged as buying time to think ?

and that’s not my style, uhm but also did did I miss something not dating for a while or,

and that’s not my style,

What is her style ?

"But" can be used to minimize, or refute what was said previously and or compare.

Mark McClish says.

"It has been said that the word "but" stands for "Behold the Underlining Truth." No matter what was said before this word the most important information in the sentence is what comes after this word. Consider the following statements

"I love you but I won't marry you."
"The food was good but you could have used less salt."

john said...



Q. Why did you agree to see him again?

A. Because like I said, I hadn’t dated for a while and I did like him. And and all the time I spent with him up to that point was great, there was nothing about him that I that I didn’t like, and that I though you know maybe he’s just a little too rough and I can sort it out.

Q. What happened on the second date?

A. Well I went to another taping of the show, but we didn’t hang out after that, but then I went to another one and there was a big snowstorm, and a girlfriend of mine came, and so, on, at the end of the night, we had we had taken the subway, and didn’t drive that night because it was too treacherous, so at the end of the night he asked me to come out with him, and I said, well my, I have my friend here, and he and he agreed to drop her at a subway, and then we went on to his house, and then we, when we were at his house it was fine, it was, he you know, put some music on, I was, you know looking at his living room, and he had some interesting things in there, and uh, you know, again, we were flirty, (Note earlier she stopped herself from using the plural "We") and but in that flirting he grabbed my hair again, but even harder, threw me in front of him, (Missing pronoun) on the ground and started closed fist pounding me on my head, repeatedly, until my ears were ringing, and I started to cry..

john said...


Q. Did you struggle?

A. Uhh, I was, no, I was, it was, I was in shock, and when you get hit in the head everything rings, and you know it’s hard to do anything, but try to, you know there was no conversation, about I like, you know, some..anything, and uh he didn’t ask me if I like to be hit, he didn’t ask me, uh you know I wasn’t expecting it, and he hit me repeatedly. And..

Q. On the head? Always on the head?

A. On the head, yeah, on the si..., on one side of my head over and over, and on the, and I’m on the floor and I’m and then I’m in tears and he, he said you need to go.

Q. What did you say?

A. I don’t, I didn’t say much at all after that. I got in a cab and cried all the way to my friend’s place, I didn’t even go home, I was I was, a mess, I went to my friend’s place and stayed at her house and cried all night

These are a just a few things i would consider to be flagged.

Jem said...

Lovepat,

First, she said *kissing* so hard. People kiss differently, there can be a learning curve. (She was talking about their first kiss in the car.)

Second, hair-pulling is only "hot" when both parties consent. And it's a strange first kiss practice.

Third, as the woman said in the program, she *didn't* tell her nurse friend what happened. She went to her friend's house after the date, she was crying, she didn't disclose the assault, so her friend assumed it was just a regular date disappointment and tried to comfort her by saying the things friends say when 2 people break up or decide it's not going to work out ("He's not worth it").

Buckley said...

I think she's a victim, but I think she's leaving out dialogue that was exchanged. I don't believe she doesn't remember what was said in the car. Also, she wants us to believe she was knocked to the floor but she hasn't reliably told us she was knocked to the floor.

Perhaps she has been reading his response in the media and is reacting to it. I've never seen it dismissed in that way before, here. Perhaps cad boy has been accused of hitting on minors before and is reacting to that. Is that a suggestion he did? That was never suggested.

Anonymous said...

I had the experience of being courted by an athlete. He was popular and good looking and I couldn't believe he was interested in me.

The emotional abuse began the day I met him. Physical abuse was a few dates later.

I didn't tell anyone for a long time, until I needed a therapist. I had PTSD. I was seeing violence everywhere in my mind. I could not believe how stupid I was. I never told anyone because I made a few bad decisions, so it kinda felt like my fault. But, if he were to be called out by other women, I would give the police my account. Otherwise, I want to put that time in my life behind me.

I find the victim's story to ring true. It's a gut feeling. And I recognize all the emotions, and how hard it is to talk about.

Buckley said...

Uhm- okay. I don't agree. To me this sounds like the man who consistently and rightfully despises when men use force against women. I just think that got in the way of the (or probably both) analyses.

Buckley said...

Oops- responding to a deleted post. Nevermind.

C5H11ONO said...

"She also may be uncomfortable with her own answer to him."
--I think Peter recognized the sensitivity issue with some of her statements.

--Personally, I can see her being smitten with a good looking tv personality who showed interest in her.

--She had various statements where I can see she had been "looking ahead" and may have gotten all caught up in the moment:
"and I thought wow my dad would really like you."
--Could she have been imagining herself in a long term "relationship" with this guy? In fact, she even referred to it as: "you know in our in our our time together our relationship, so there was nothing." She referred to two dates as a “relationship”.

The most sensitive statement was this one:
"And he reached over and grabbed my hair very hard and pulled my head back. And it really took me off guard, but I I don’t know precisely exactly what he was saying, but I, I’m thinking it was something along the lines of do you like this and and I don’t know what I said, but it was a week night and it was late and I had to go."
--I think her inability to say what he said is because she is withholding information, perhaps even to avoid telling the interviewer some pretty embarrassing answers she may have given. Maybe because he was a tv star, she wanted to sound like she partied like a rock star as well. Maybe she embellished a little and hey, she got the shock of her life!

“and at this point it’s like wow why did I even,” – she stopped herself from finishing this sentence. Was she about to say, why did I even go out with this guy a second time? I would have thought it too had it happened to me.

--Regardless of her sensitivities in her statements. She was showing, in my opinion, veracity when saying what he did that was wrong:

1. “he reached over and grabbed my hair very hard and pulled my head back.”
2. “but in that flirting he grabbed my hair again, but even harder, threw me in front of him, on the ground and started closed fist pounding me on my head, repeatedly, until my ears were ringing, and I started to cry.”
She even identified the distinction from the first time and the second time. The first time she added the “very hard” because she probably has had her hair pulled back, except this time it was very hard, and then the third time, “even harder”. Notice no “we” when describing the assault. I think she described each assault with veracity.

I’m certain that she did withhold information, primarily because it was also a highly humiliating one. He must have engaged in pretty derogatory language on her, while he was beating up on her. He was probably insulting her to get his kicks, and then the ultimate, “you need to go”. He kicked her out of his house. That’s embarrassing. She must have felt worthless and even felt “alone” in what happened. Well what she didn’t know is that she is probably not the only one that got the “exit treatment” as most, if not all the women he took home must have experienced it. So If he couldn’t beat them, he got his kicks humiliating them. Anyone in that situation would have felt cheap and dirty. I understand why she was a mess, I would have been too. I would have asked her other questions too, and primarily I would have pressed her a little more on what she may have said to him when he asked her if she liked it rough. I know it didn’t go over Peter’s head, he addressed it. But even if she would have said, I want to be pounded by a pile driver, this guy assaulted her. She went to his house, and maybe she “imagined” a sexy steamy night with a hot guy, and it turned out to be anything but. It never made it to the bedroom because he assaulted her, and he did it out of the blue!

C5H11ONO said...

Additional analysis on my part:
“don’t hit me so hard or don’t kiss me like that or whatever”
– She stated don’t hit me so hard, qualifying hit me. This may give us a clue as to what she may have said to him during the hair pulling incident when he asked her if she liked it rough. She revealed that “when a couple gets together there is a little learning curve” and maybe hitting was something that she may have experienced in the past, and hitting hard was something she may not like. Who knows? A little spanking maybe was OK, but an all out beating wasn’t. “hard” is sensitive to her. She’s making a distinction.

This is just my take on what I think happened from her statements.

Peter Hyatt said...

You're touching upon sensitivity indicators accurately. It is important to know that everyone edits out information otherwise we would never stop talking. In her case, it may be embarrassment, which is expected.
Peter

~mj said...

Buckley - yes, Mr. Hyatt was a little quick on this analysis, he even admitted these topics strike a nerve. But that doesn't make his analysis less accurate. He notes that she blames herself. He doesn't allow his analysis to stake claim she didn't make poor choices and wasn't mesmerized by his fame. He doesn't say she isn't leaving part of the conversation out, he merely went with what was obvious to anyone reading and he pointed out that her shift from present tense to past tense in the appropriate areas lends veracity to her claim, he has stated this many times over in other analysis that IF the subject shifts from present to past it would need to be justified. In this case it is justified.

I am shocked - LovePat - I sincerely hope you are joking by your "in your face" comments about her not being a victim. This comment and one by TrueNorth on another post, and the sentiments of many more, are exactly what is so disturbing about this. When is it OK to hit someone? I don't give a rats ass what the media pedals and entertainment pedals and all the bleeding heart, "What I do in the privacy of my home..." blah blah blah, when you get off on hitting and hurting someone for sexual pleasure, something has gone wrong in your development. Period. I don't care if that makes me sound like a prude. 99% of society will agree with me when I say, if a group of people went around randomly striking people out of no where for no reason while they were waiting in line for coffee or getting gas, or riding the subway - all out of "that's how I like to spend my time connecting with people" -there would be something WRONG with them. Or if you want a better comparison, if your neighbor invited you over to their house for a meal, and while you were sitting down for dinner, the host is telling you how much the love boxing and then, wham! You get clocked, one or two or three times on the head. Most of us would agree that something would be off about them. But since what we are talking about today happens to be something for sexual pleasure, all of a sudden the rules have changed? and now its no one's business? I call BS. His private business is bleeding out into his community, on park benches, in parked cars, in booths at clubs...

Obviously this man hinted or outrightly told this particular young lady that he liked it rough AND equally obvious, something was lost in translation to what that meant when she went home with him. The commentor who stated that this is about yes, he did these things, and he doesn't think there is anything wrong with it for X, Y, Z reasons got it right. And that more people aren't outraged about this and that he finds a consoling ear about his woes of being outed for being a violent deviant is disturbing.

I may not agree with the reasons why people engage in violent sex, but those that choose to and they follow a strict code of consent, I freely accept that not all of us will agree with certain behaviors. However, this man clearly violated that code of consent, merely mentioning his preferences or hinting to it or claiming it is "just talk" is not getting consent, it's called grooming. Period. And anyone disagreeing with that basic truth is part of the problem, not the solution to a better society.

My question to anyone who wants to claim she isn't a victim is this, why is it that in today's society we have so many women who feel like in order to please or be accepted she has to bend her sexual comfort, submit or keep silent? Why is that? What about our society has trained so many women (and some men) that THAT is the norm? What about our society has trained your daughter or your mother or sister to feel guilty for being hit on the head because she was interested sexually in a man because he was charming and famous and he wanted to beat the shit out of her and all she had for recourse was crying, what is it about our society? Such a big man that he is, tears sort of turned it off for him...

LovePat said...

Mj, Jen
I did not watch the interview, I went by the provided transcript. The transcript stated "hit so hard" not kiss. If the transcript is incorrect, then I would change my assertion.
The "victim" does not state whether she told the nurse friend about the beating. She does state she stayed the night with her and cried all night.
I think a woman would tell her friend the whole truth. Especially one she is comfortable enough with to stay the night at her house. I understand not reporting it. I would not doubt a story just because the police were not told. But not telling the friend who is comforting you--I question that. Personal story--My mom's best friend called her for help at 4am after being raped. She told my mom what happened. She DID NOT report it to the police. She was telling the truth.
Background on me--Former volunteer for my area's battered womens shelter.
I have donated thousands of hours to women and children who are victims of violence.
I have also assisted a man who was a victim of false allegations.
I am not for women or for men. "I am for truth, no matter who tells it"---Malcolm X

Anonymous said...

I learned a lot reading All of these comments. There are a lot of astute readers here. Thanks Cyn

Buckley said...

"Q. What did she, what what state where you in when you arrived at your friend’s house?

A. In tears, I was I was just a mess, and she you know, was saying typical friend things like you know he’s not worth it, and you can do better and you know, and and at this point it’s like wow why did I even, you know, cause I, as I said I hadn’t been dating, and she was she was comforting in a typical friend way, and but but, you know people have asked my why didn’t you press charges or, that’s that’s a tough one.

If she didn't tell her friend, why does she introduce the topic of "pressing charges" in response to a question about her state at her friends? (And wow is that sentence long!) Nor does she state "I didn't tell her I was hit." We can't say it for her.

Anonymous said...

Audio interview

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/29/jian-ghomeshi-cbc-as-it-happens_n_6071256.html

C5H11ONO said...

What if her friend was the first person to tell her to press charges and she was fearful. I think I would bring it up automatically in that context. She is withholding the conversation she had with her friend. If I had a friend that showed up at my house in the condition she says she did, the first thing I would tell is you have to press charges! She in turn was scared, fearful and new that she would be doubted. He in turn did a good job in mesmerizing people with the "what you do sexually is private" to garner support. What he did to her should have garnered a charge of battery, which is a felony I believe.

john said...

C5H11ONO said...

What if her friend was the first person to tell her to press charges and she was fearful.


Hi,

That's a valid point.

If she doesn't say her friend asked her that question, we cant assume it for her. We go by the words spoken only.

There is, imo, lots of missing information. Peter's analysis i agree with 100%. We have to, however, also apply S/A principles to every statement irrespective of whom makes the allegation against whom.

john said...

Forgive my grammar. It is Halloween, and i'm being attacked by Witches and Zombies :-)

Anonymous said...

For heavens sakes! She ought to be embarrassed about ever having gone out with him the second time. She knew violence was involved and went looking for it.

On her first visit to his set she makes herself available and he zeros in on her, the end result is he grabs her head, snaps it back and pulls her hair. Hard. Didn't this tell her right there that he is an abuser? Dummy. What does she do? She goes back for more.

She makes a SECOND trip to his set but he ignores her presence this time so they don't connect on her open invitation/visit to his set on her trip number two. Still making herself available to him, she makes yet a third trip to his set, so desperate to connect with him that she even ventures out in horrid weather just to get there, and this time he takes advantage of the situation, takes her to his home and gives her the pounding she had to have known was coming.

Why wouldn't he think that the physical abuse she knew was going to be involved would be right up her alley since she was still a hanger-on'er around his set after he had already made it clear to her this is what he likes? Sounds to me like she got more of what she went looking for by making that second and third trip to his set.

Idiot. She already knew he was a sadistic abuser so she goes back for MORE pain? BTW, I do not believe that he did not have some kind of rough sex with her before he told her to leave, at which point he was done with her.

Deejay said...

Most of these responses are EXACTLY why it is hard to speak out about abuse--- YOU ARE HARSHLY JUDGED.

Buckley said...

Most? Oh, please! There are three of 39 that are harsh. We're not saying this TO her. We're here to discern veracity in statements. If we're too obsessed with directly hurting people's feelings to do it evenly, we have no business claiming to be after the truth.

Anon...jk... ~mj said...

Anon 6:46, you speak big words for being anonymous. ..*sarcasm to commence* you must be as big a man or a big attitude woman as our Mr. Radio man. Kudos for your strength in your statement to put a name to your comments.... *end sarcasm* ...coward.

Anonymous said...

Anon...jk...mj: I did NOT say that this woman deserved the beating she got just because she kept throwing herself at this beast; which she DID do, going back two MORE times to his set, putting herself in harms way AGAIN, even though he had already proved that he would physically abuse her. She didn't learn her lesson the first time? Not.

I'm sorry for her that she was so star-struck and gullible, and sorry for the pain she suffered at the hands of this deranged sicko; but like it or not, she DID put herself in this position when she not only went back to his set the second time but on the third occasion she actually went with him AGAIN on a second little private love-fest after he had already abused her on the first pick-up date.

One would think she might have realized what could happen to her, possibly even worse than the first time? She's lucky she didn't get her throat cut and thrown into a ditch beside the road and left to bleed to death. Men like him DO graduate to bigger and more gruesome crimes.

Should the blame lie on her for what he did to her? Of course not, and that's not what I'm saying.

Anonymous said...

BTW, I do agree with Peter that she is telling the truth. Just that she isn't telling ALL of the truth. IMO, due to her embarrassment and the humiliation of being thrown out of his house after he was done with her; she left out the details about what actually happened during that night of painful and abusive sexual relations he forced on her before and during the act, and possibly afterwards as well.

Also, IMO there was a lot that wasn't said in the comment her girlfriend made to her after the night of painful abuse was over, when she said to her "he isn't worth it." That right there tells me that she was infatuated with the guy and had been chasing him even though he had already physically abused her on the first go-round.

Isn't it a known fact that if a man abuses a woman the first time the chances are 99% that he will do it again; but she is still making deliberate trips down to his set hoping to hook up with him? How sad to be so gullible.

One would think that after the first abusive encounter she would have run like the devil was after her instead of continuing to make herself available to his abuse. I think she intended to have him one way or the other and she got the other. IMO, her infatuation blind-sided her.

I'm sure there were many young women after him; after all, he was good-looking, single, charming, debonair and a well-known celebrity. Too bad none of them (including her) didn't come forward earlier and tell their story. They could have saved a lot of other women from the same abuse and he could have been behind bars where he belongs.