Friday, February 20, 2015

Discerning Deception in the Comments Section




1.  Ask questions--using what you've learned here about answers, including reliable denials.
2.  Presume that minimization will take place in the language.

Recently, one wrote about an "affair" between her 8 year old child and her husband.

It caused one to have an angry comment because others did not respond with the same level of shock.

First, here is the post about the affair, and then the angry comment left.


Anonymous said...
My husband was having an affair... at least that is what he and the young lady considered it. He had her convinced that he would divorce me and marry her "as soon as she turned 18". I wasn't aware ANYTHING out of the ordinary was going on. I knew he drank too much, and worked too little, but had NO IDEA that an underage girl was completely in love with him, and they'd begun a physical relationship behind my back. The complete mind-blower was that the girl was my daughter, who was 8 years old when the "affair" began. It lasted 2 years. I certainly do not blame her for it, and realize she was the primary victim, but it still kills me that I was so CLUELESS.

This elicited an angry response:


"With all due respect, how can you call your husband molesting your 8 yr old daughter "an affair"? You speak as if you are the victim. If the molesting went on for years and it started when your daughter was 8 how could you possibly have had NO IDEA . It is just strange in my opinion how you call this "an affair". Also, an 8 yr old is not a "young lady". An 8 yr old is practically is just a little kid. You need to become clear in your head it was not "an affair", it was moleststion. Am I seriously the only person disturbed by this post?"


The post begins with a question:

"With all due respect" warns you of what follows won't be respectful.  

Then asks, "how can you call...an affair?" This is actually a relevant question (which begins the post) and deserves an answer because the answer, itself, is not only useful for learning, but for assisting victims. 

In child molestation, the damage to the child remains immeasurable in its fullest understanding. Statistics are useful, though each time I feel I have a grasp of the impact, something new arises. It is universally heartbreaking. 

The answer remains within the attempt to protect oneself from the guilt of Neglect. 

It varies greatly, so allow me to be general. 

The mother has suspicions but fears taking action. 
The mother knows, but is paralyzed by fear.
The mother does not know, because she does not want to know.
The mother does not know. 
The mother cannot bear the guilt of knowing it happened on her watch.  

on and on it goes.  

It is awful.  But is that the case here?  We continue:  

The change of language to "affair" is not only minimization, but it puts:

a. blame upon the child
b. both the adult and the child on equal status 
c. protects the mother from the guilt of abdicating her role as protector.  

As to anonymous' closing question:

No. 

I think some simply did not comment on it due to shock or disgust. 


Others may not have responded for a very different reason:

The original post is not true.  



Anonymous said...
My husband was having an affair... at least that is what he and the young lady considered it. He had her convinced that he would divorce me and marry her "as soon as she turned 18". I wasn't aware ANYTHING out of the ordinary was going on. I knew he drank too much, and worked too little, but had NO IDEA that an underage girl was completely in love with him, and they'd begun a physical relationship behind my back. The complete mind-blower was that the girl was my daughter, who was 8 years old when the "affair" began. It lasted 2 years. I certainly do not blame her for it, and realize she was the primary victim, but it still kills me that I was so CLUELESS.

Here is why some may have decided to not bother to respond...

My husband was having an affair... at least that is what he and the young lady considered it.


First, she uses the language "an affair" as standard language, not using the quotation marks used later.  
Next, she refers to the partner in the affair:  "the young lady."  Let's see how she references her daughter throughout. 

1.  She is "the young lady."

 He had her convinced that he would divorce me and marry her "as soon as she turned 18". 

2.  Here, she is referenced by the pronoun "she" and we learn now that the "young lady" was under the age of 18.  


I wasn't aware ANYTHING out of the ordinary was going on. I knew he drank too much, and worked too little, 

Here we have "anything" in all caps, with two qualifications:  drinking too much, and working too little which will then be met by the word "but" which is given in comparison to what she has just stated: 


but had NO IDEA that an underage girl was completely in love with him, 

The subject now wasn't "aware of ANYTHING" but chooses to compare this to:  "but" (her own rebuttal to her own assertion) that "an underage girl"

3.  "an underaged girl"


and they'd begun a physical relationship behind my back

note the issue with the "physical relationship" is that it was behind her back.  None of this was the complete "mind blower" until:  

The complete mind-blower was that the girl was my daughter, who was 8 years old when the "affair" began. It lasted 2 years. I certainly do not blame her for it, and realize she was the primary victim, but it still kills me that I was so CLUELESS.

4. "The girl"

First, she was:

"the" young lady, and next she was "she" being under 18.  Then, she was "an" and not "the" (already identified) "girl" and finally "the girl" became "my daughter."

Noting the context of the language, there is no justification for the change.  There are more indications that this did not proceed from experiential memory should one decide to give it more attention.  

It is not a truthful account.  This is why it was likely ignored by long term readers. 

There has always been deceptive comments here just as there are on all forums and blogs where commenting is popular.

 I think  readers recognized this as a false posting.

There were also recent pedantic comments that seemed to catch some reader's attention, that is until they saw that the poster had an agenda, instead of seeking to engage in conversation about the blog. These comments were written by the same person, seeking empathy and attention, yet had an agenda seeking to disprove analysis over a specific case.

It did leave us happily....

with samples for analysis!

112 comments:

GetThem said...

I've seen comments like that one in here but I never bother with them because I don't believe what strangers post. I think I saw that one, but I read about 2 sentences and blew by it. I'd rather learn from your posts and hear and share with others that are here to learn too. I will never waste my time trying to SA a comment because I don't trust those types of comments to be real. I enjoy reading comments opinions and other perspectives, but anything fishy, I just ignore. They annoy me. If this post is the one I think it was, it annoyed me so much I remember reading a little and thinking this is a bunch of crap and if it is real, why not seek help from the police and get help. I guess I'm just mean that way.

Buckley said...

Aside from the fact it's fake, is it trickle truth?

jen dugena said...

OT
This statement seems to fit the requirements of a reliable denial (?)
"I didn't kill him"
"You can believe anything you want."
"But I didn't kill him."

Yet this was spoken by a man who seconds after saying this was arrested/handcuffed by police because his wife already confessed to police that he did it - from the show Natural Born Killer - The Killer Speaks (the Lawrence Tarbert case).

Get Them said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I didnt analyze the comment but I could tell it was fake and written by the same guy who wrote the pain pill addict comments due to the capitalization of "NO IDEA" in the fake post about the daughter. In keeping with the pain pill posts it seems to be someone who likes using these phrases like "no idea" that we zero in on in SA in his posts, perhaps taunting the readers?

Sus said...

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20141216/morgan-park/jackie-robinson-west-broke-residency-rules-suburban-league-claims

Peter,
I thought you might like to use quotes from here as examples of deception and not issuing a reliable denial. Of course, the team has since been stripped of its title.

Wendy said...

Hi Peter,
I couldn't tell if the story was real or not. To me, (I'm a social worker,)it sounded like the father groomed the daughter and she took on the role as his lover. She may have been the one who confronted her mother and told her about their plans to get married. The mother seems to feel betrayed instead of shell-shocked that it was her daughter, not another woman. The mother doesn’t seem too surprised about her husband's behavior and his being unfaithful; she doesn’t hold him in the highest regard. There must have been a lot of problems in this relationship.

(She references her daughter as a girl and young lady, maybe her husband preferred ‘younger girls’?) She isn’t angry so much that he had an affair, she’s angry that she didn’t figure out who it was with. She has no sympathy for her daughter and doesn't see her as being innocent--the mother plays the victim instead.

It's possible the mother is protecting herself from the guilt of Neglect.

Anonymous said...

Wendy,

did you write the original letter? I notice you wrote "the father groomed the daughter and she took on the role of his lover". (?!?!!!!). This is an 8 year old girl!!!!!! You also say the writer of the letter does not seem surprised at her husband being "unfaithful". Really?!?! I didnt realize molesting is casually referred to as being umfaithful. It is scary if you are a social worker because your grasp of abuse dynamics is quite poor.

john said...

OT update:

GBI wraps investigation into police chief’s shooting of wife

The district attorney deciding whether to bring charges against the Peachtree City police chief who shot his wife has received the GBI’s findings following a nearly two-month investigation.

Chief William McCollom called 911 around 4 a.m. on New Year’s Day to report he had accidentally shot his wife in the back when his gun discharged as he moved it from the bed where she was sleeping. Margaret McCollom was left paralyzed from the waist down and her husband was placed on administrative paid leave pending the GBI’s investigation.

Fayette County D.A. Scott Ballard on Friday told Channel 2 Action News he has “a pretty clear idea of what the facts are and I’ve studied to determine pretty much what laws might apply, so I think I know what I’m going to do.”

But Ballard didn’t tip his hand, telling the station it could be a couple of weeks before he announces his decision.

The GBI said Chief McCollom has been cooperative throughout its probe. His wife told investigators she believes her husband didn’t intend to shoot her.

McCollom was hired by Peachtree City in 2012 as assistant chief. He was promoted last October following a series of favorable performance reviews.

The McColloms recently married each other a second time after reconciling in 2011.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/gbi-wraps-investigation-into-police-chiefs-shootin/nkF7P/

john said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
john said...

OT:

Mystery Couple Comes Forward in Search for Missing OC Woman; Family Pleads for Help

A mystery couple seen with a Laguna Hills woman who disappeared after a night out celebrating on Valentine’s Day came forward to talk to investigators Friday as the missing woman’s family pleaded for help in finding her.


Erica Alonso, 27, hasn’t been seen since shortly after she and her boyfriend left the Sutra Lounge in Costa Mesa on the evening of Feb. 14 with an unknown couple.

“We just want her home. We miss her so much,” said her sister, who gave her name as Patricia, at a news conference Friday.

Alonso and her boyfriend had arrived at the club either by taxi or Uber earlier in the evening, Lt. Jeff Hallock of the Orange County Sheriff’s Department stated at the news conference.

At some point, Alonso befriended another couple and convinced them to give her and her boyfriend a ride home, Hallock said.

The foursome left the club about 1:30 a.m. and drove to Alonso’s boyfriend’s apartment in Irvine near Culver Drive and Deerfield Avenue, according to a news release from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department.

The couple stayed at the apartment until about 3:45 a.m., but left following an argument between Alonso and her boyfriend, Hallock said.

About 10 to 15 minutes later, Alonso left the apartment and has not been seen or heard from since, the news release stated.

Detectives were also trying to locate Alonso’s car, a white four-door 2014 Honda Civic EX with California license #7FSS563, but have no leads at this point, according to Hallock.

The couple, who were seen with Alonso in surveillance video from the club, came forward and spoke to investigators Friday morning after seeing themselves on the news the night before, according to Hallock.

“We can’t label him a suspect or a person of interest at this point, but obviously he was the last person to have seen or heard from miss Alonso,” Hallock said.

Detectives had little left to go on in their search for Alonso, Hallock stated.

“There’s been no activity on her cell phone. Nothing in terms of bank records or bank activity. Her social media accounts have been null, so it’s really alarming to investigators,” Hallock said.

Alonso is known to be very active on social media, according to investigators.

Patricia described Alonso as very friendly and talkative with strangers.

“Anytime we would go out, she would make a new friend,” she said.

http://ktla.com/2015/02/20/mystery-couple-comes-forward-in-search-for-missing-oc-woman/

john said...

OT:

'Slender Man' Interrogation Tapes Reveal Shocking New Details About Alleged Stabbing Plot

http://abcnews.go.com/US/slender-man-interrogation-tapes-reveal-shocking-details-alleged/story?id=29117234&cid=fb_abcn_sf

Lisa Banks said...

Peter, you just analyzed my comment and deemed it deceptive. The incidents described are real, and the choice of the terms affair (in quotes) and young lady were intended to cause the reader to assume the affair partner was older than she was do they would feel the same outrage I did at learning my husband's "paramour" was my 8 year old daughter. Clearly she was victimized, but to this day, after counseling, meds, a prolonged trial, and his incarceration, still insists it was consensual and that he loved her and never hurt her. I knew he drank (I never do, so it seemed a lot, but I can't be objective) and claimed a back injury prevented him working, BUT I had no idea there was anything inappropriate about their relationship. He seemed a loving, affectionate, involved stepfather, and she clearly adored him. I am sorry you do not believe me, but the case files are available at noparole4pedophile.weebly.com under 'supporting documents', as I am preparing a letter-writong campaign for his upcoming parole hearing. We were included in a book by Jayne Hitchcock concerning online crime, and Tricia Griffith and I started a forum on Websleuths called CAPER (Citizens Against Pedophile's Early Release) because of this case.
I may have been oblivious to what was going on in my home, but now that I know, I am NOT lying about any of it, and it is well-documented. I DO realize she was molested by a pedophile, and is not responsible for it, but she denied it for years, and when she did tell, and I asked why she had denied it (she was then 14) she said ",I didn't think they meant THAT!". SHE did not consider it molestation, since (although legally unable to consent) she felt she had been a consensual partner and I would be angry that they "cheated on me" (her words). I love my daughter and would not have allowed the abuse to continue if I had known. She was NEVER left with a babysitter other than afterschool YMCA programs held at the school because I was hypervigilant. I constantly asked if anyone had touched her inside the "bathing suit areas" and she always told me no.

Lisa Banks said...

Apologies for typographical errors. I am on my tablet.

Ms. Holzwarth said...

Sorry sir, but you are an ignorant kumquat. I know this person and its all real. You completely missed the point, which is that abusers use tactics to manipulate victims into believing something about the abuse to keep them quiet; in this case that the abuse was an act of love. People like you are why victims and their families struggle to receive help in the general population. Educate yourself a little and pray that you don't find yourself loving a child who has lived this nightmare; though with it happening to 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys, chances are you do love one, you just don't know it yet.

john said...

OT:

Bill O'Reilly Has His Own Brian Williams Problem

The Fox News host has said he was in a "war zone" that apparently no American correspondent reached.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/bill-oreilly-brian-williams-falklands-war

More Proof the American Media is Corrupt

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/More-Proof-the-American-Media-is-Corrupt/-906393102995797485.html

Peter Hyatt said...

This is something that bears repeating:

There are points of deception in the mother's account; they are self protective points.

This is not to say that the child wasn't molested.

Readers here know how much work I've done on behalf of children who have been molested and for victims of D/V.

Having said that, readers also know that I plead with both mother and advocates to not exaggerate a single detail.

I do not have a problem with the fact of the case, but it is the portrayal, as an "affair" that suggests deception within the account.

This is often the case when one feels such outrage as well as self condemnation for what went on.

A statement is a person's portrayal of reality; not reality itself.

The statement has layers of 'protection' including the classification of an affair. An affair puts blame on both.

The 8 year old child is not a "young lady" and although there may have been grooming and subsequent molestation and a lifetime of consequence,

a statement like the one posted is not helpful.

Once a judge discerns deception within an affidavit, the child's protection can be lost.

The change of language in the post does not represent a change in reality. "Young ladies" do not have "affairs" at age 8.

Peter

tania cadogan said...

Off topic a case you analysed Peter

Prosecutors have brought torture and child abuse charges against the father and stepmother of a 12-year-old Detroit boy who was found in his father's basement last year after an 11-day disappearance.

Charles Bothuell IV, 46, and Monique Dillard-Bothuell, 37, systematically physically abused the child, forced him to live in the basement and didn't allow him to socialize, Wayne County prosecutors said.

The boy, Charlie Bothuell V, was found by police in the basement of his family's condominium on June 25, 2014, - 11 days after he was reported missing by his father and stepmom.

Detroit police arrested the Bothuells this morning, the prosecutor's office said. They have each been charged with one count of torture, punishable by up to life in prison, and second-degree child abuse, which carries a maximum penalty of four years in prison.

Bothuell, a nurse, had made tearful pleas on TV for his son's return and later said he was ‘shocked’ when the boy was found in the basement.

Charlie was deprived of food and forced to engage in an 'extreme and unreasonable exercise regime,' Prosecutors said in a statement.

He ‘has experienced physical abuse by his father... for the entire two years he has resided in Mr. Bothuell's residence,’ the Department of Human Services said in a court filing.

‘The abuse included being physically disciplined with a PVC pipe on his butt, feet, chest, head, thighs, sides and arms... He was often too sore to sit or walk.’

But Charlie told caseworkers that his stepmother ordered him to the basement on June 14, 2014 because she believed he had not completed one of his twice-a-day workouts.

His workout regime included 100 pushups, 200 situps, 100 jumping jacks, 25 arm curls with a 25-pound weight and thousands of revolutions on an elliptical machine.

Charlie said his stepmom, who has two other children, told him, ‘Shut up, stay quiet and don't say anything no matter what you hear!’

Charlie said Dillard-Bothuell told him at times, ‘I know where the sharp knives are... I can make you disappear.’

Charlie was discovered in the cramped basement behind a makeshift barrier of boxes. Confusingly, FBI agents previously searched the basement, even using specially trained cadaver dogs.

It then emerged there was an underground tunnel easily accessible from the basement, connecting the other condos in the block and leading outside the building.

The tunnel’s outside door is usually locked and only accessible to maintenance men, but crucially, it was left open during the time he was in the resident because residents were getting rid of a build-up of trash in a dumpster left outside.

That means Charlie could have left the property in the day, before returning at night, explaining why FBI agents could not find the boy.

Court documents apparently state that Charlie has claimed he even snuck upstairs for food when the house was empty.

The father and stepmother earlier denied any abuse took place.

tania cadogan said...

cont.

The state Department of Human Services has said the father later acknowledged striking his son with a PVC pipe.

They added in a court filing last year that the boy told authorities he was forced to rise before dawn for his intense workouts.

'We are thankful that the victim was found alive,' prosecutor Kym Worthy said. 'This is the first time that the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office has charged torture for a living child. Based upon the allegations, if any case warrants child torture charges, this one certainly does.'

Dillard-Bothuell was charged with an unrelated probation violation shortly after Charlie was found because there was a gun in the home and she had a prior gun conviction in Wayne County, according to MLive.

Officials have temporarily stripped Bothuell and Dillard-Bothuell of their parental rights and taken Charlie's two half-siblings from the couple's home. A final custody decision has not been made by the courts.

Bothuell and Dillard-Bothuell are due in court on Friday afternoon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961626/Father-stepmom-charged-case-Detroit-boy-basement.html

Anonymous said...

Peter wrote, "Once a judge discerns deception within an affidavit, the child's protection can be lost." This is absolutely true, and I have seen this happen first-hand as an attorney.

When I read the mother's original post, I thought she sounded crazy. She did not sound like she was giving an honest and accurate description of what had happened. Moreover, she sounded exactly as Peter described, she was minimizing (maybe to minimized her guilt at not picking up on what was happening). If I were a judge and read that statement, though, I would not be very moved by it. I would think the mom was angrier for herself than her daughter. Ms. Banks, you can only benefit from reading what Peter has to write about statement analysis.

Ms. Holzwarth said...

Again, she was using words the molester used. Good grief. You are unbelievable.

Peter Hyatt said...

A credible statement, rather than 'story telling' would be that her step father groomed her and molested her.

The language of story telling will not persuade.

"He groomed her. He gained her trust. He sexually assaulted her. Eventually, he deceived her into thinking she was "in love" but was a child."

This is the language of truthful accounting. Note the facts, rather than editorializing and story telling.

My background is child protective. To explain away like a novel, is not the way to report truthful exploitation of a child. Even the use of "young lady" turns the stomach and puts responsibility for sexual assault upon a child.

It is wrong.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Buckley,

it is the language of story telling. Even if a child is assaulted (and even groomed), too many parents (and too many pushed by advocates) go into story telling (which, in and of itself, includes falsehood and can turn a judgement against them) rather than straight language of report finding.

I think a number of readers who generally weigh in saw the language changes and decided not to comment upon it.

I have been in court, knowing a child was sexually abused, and watched the abuser gain back the child because the mother, who failed to protect, used the Pinocchio effect to "really show the judge" what was happening.

It endangers children.

Anonymous 9:53AM February 20th: well said. He enjoyed holding court but had an agenda, which did not make it through the deletion process.

Wendy, excellent conclusion. The next anonymous pointed out some oddities in the language, as well.

Peter

elf said...

You know that person because you are that person. What I see from your statements isn't minimizing or guilt but jealousy over the fact that your spouse was molesting your daughter. All te words you used (affair, young lady, paramour, partner) sound like what a jealous wife would say about a cheating husband. They are terms adults use. That you classify your 8-14 year old daughter as your spouses partner is very disturbing.
I believe your daughter was molested. I don't believe that you didn't know about it. You blame your daughter and seek to have us confirm that YOU are the victim.
Get counseling.

Lisa Cox said...

How dare you take one comment expressed in a private group and say the mother didn't word her grief properly? Because we do grieve when our children are abused. Years of abuse change a child, and our 21 year old daughter won't be the same person she would have been because of prior abuse. Our family dynamics aren't the same. Our sense of security, our relationships with friends and family, they all shift in what seems like the blink of an eye.
She chose that language because those are the words the perpetrator used to manipulate a child into thinking she wasn't being abused because she was loved and it didn't feel bad. Children often don't know they are abused and they may perceive themselves as being in a relationship, which is what happened in her case.
Expressing grief and emotions in a forum meant to be seen only by parents living with the aftermath of a child being abused is healthy, and it is the admins place to determine if the comments are appropriate. Not yours. Your lack of the ability to even consider that you may be wrong and the effects this would have on the mother if you were wrong is astounding. Did you at least contact the poster privately beforehand to ask if she had court documentation to back up her accusations? Did you do any background research, or simply pull one comment and rip to apart for no apparent reason?

Lisa Cox said...

The mother who failed to protect? Did you actually make that comment?

Peter Hyatt said...

i deleted the name calling of Buckley. I reserve that right for myself.

Peter


By the way, can anyone tell when the poster with my name is not me, but Heather?

Peter Hyatt said...

If a mother of an 8 year old daughter being molested concluded that they were having an "affair", yes, I not only wrote, but believe this is failure to protect.

I do not minimize the impact of childhood sexual abuse, nor even the pain of the mother.

Please do a search on this blog for "sexual abuse" and take a few days, not hours, to read some of it.

The failure to protect is evident. Claiming to not have a clue or hint, but to call something an affair warrants little analysis.

It is painful but it is part of the equation in which children suffer: parents not seeing, not being alert, not taking precaution, choosing mates foolishly, and on and on it goes.

If my child is molested under my roof, I have failed to protect her.

I am responsible for her protection.

This does not negate the responsibility of the perpetrator, but it shows my failure to protect my own daughter.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Elf,

the poster posted it here, not somewhere privately. An astute reader was surprised that no one was reacting to it.

Well, the original poster now has the attention she sought. That you, and others did not let her blame her child for molestation was likely not what she was expecting.

Lisa, this is how I "dared" to do so: it was posted here, on my blog. It didn't take much "nerve" to comment on.

Sandy posted her disgust and wanted to know why others were not disgusted. The disgust reaction is the expected, except that the story told was not credible.

As to your other questions: no, I did no research. I responded to a post where one raised a question and I answered it. I think the one asking the question understands my reply.

Elf pointed out that the person who stated that her 8 year old "young lady" had an "affair" with her husband does need professional intervention.
I agree.
Peter

Buckley said...

Thanks Peter, I know I can be the annoying student at times, but I mean well.

I wondered if your father posted due to a comment about growing up in the 30s and 40s. I've sometimes wondered if Lemon is someone you know in real life because there seems to be a "got your back" connection that is there but understated.

As for Lisa posting in the language of the accuser, I don't see how she got that language from the molester if she didn't learn about it until years after she divorced him. He apparently denied it until his written confession. The language must be coming from the abused girl. Even if some words are repeated, it is from the point of view of a wife who was cheated on, not a mother who discovered her daughter had been abused at 8 years old. I hope the scorned ex language is something held back when helping her daughter heal.

Anonymous said...

"...an underage girl was completely in love with him, and they'd begun a physical relationship behind my back..."

That's not how someone, especially the mother of the child in question, would describe a child being molested. She was completely in love with him, at 8 years old? THEY began a physical relationship behind your back? Sorry (not really), but you sound like a woman scorned due to her cheating husband, not a mother whose heart is broken because her husband molested her daughter. Maybe that sounds mean, but its the truth. Those are your words, you chose them for a reason. Why were you trying to build suspense, instead of just recount your daughters horrible ordeal? There's no suspense building or story telling needed. :(

Peter Hyatt said...

This was posted here, so this is a repost.

I ask readership to read it, but respectfully, please t be careful about comments.



http://noparole4pedophile.weebly.com

Peter

Anonymous said...

If it was the one from "Get Them", I don't think it was really GetThem who posted it.

Peter Hyatt said...

Buckley, an example of trickle truth in context:

Man: "I only saw her at the park" revealed on day one.

"we only held hands. no kissing." Day two

"Well, maybe a kiss but it was just a good bye kiss on the cheek." Day three

"I didn't want to hurt you. I think she may have kissed me a few more times, but it meant nothing. " Day Four

"You were so upset! I feared you were going to commit suicide. I could not tell you I didn't lie to you. I just didn't tell you that she had sex with me. I didn't even like it. She is gross. I just let her."

Day Five


The full truth comes out in small elements postponing the opportunity to process and get some relief.

It is cruel.

Peter

Anonymous said...

PS, that's why I post under Anonymous. I think quite a few people do now, due to "stolen identities".

Sandy said...

I was the one who originally expressed disgust with the poster. Having read everything and looked carefully at the comment, I believe the post is compleyely fictitious. It is not an exaggeration. It is fabricated entirely. I believe it is a male writer who is a pedophile. If you click on Lisa Banks name it does not go to a profile, it goes straight to a page about keeping a pedophile in jail. It seems more like a troll or someone who posted to express the sick pedophilic perspective of the victim of a pedophile being a willing participant.

Peter Hyatt said...

Ms. Holzwarth said...
Again, she was using words the molester used. Good grief. You are unbelievable.
February 21, 2015 at 11:42 AM

Ms. Holzwarth,

She parentified her own daughter.

The statement from "No Parole..." will be read by those here who have learned Statement Analysis. It will confirm the analysis.

If you have learned anything here, please go back to the "No Parole..." statement and simply circle the pronouns.

You'll understand, perhaps, a bit more of the reaction of those here.

It has been interesting and useful for instruction.

As to quoting her ex husband: she did not. She entered into his language, instead. This is a principle you might not understand as of yet, but if you do some searching here, you'll get it.

I don't recognize the name you called me, but if I knew what it meant, I'd be awfully mad right now.

:)

If it is that "all sex is very very wrong", I can say with certainty, that after I turn off the lights, and before I go to sleep, I am so very, very, very....well, you just don't wanna know.


Peter


Buckley, my dad's deceased. Heather sometimes posts from my lap top but forgets to write her name. I generally add my name in the text portion. She does not post much because of some of the nasty things that need deletion upset her. An entire pornography library of sorts exists in the Spam folder from a Billie Jean Dunn follower!

I don't know Lemon personally but anyone who agrees with me must have some developmental disability.

Hobnob is an obstinate, contrarian, opinionated verbose left wing, euro-atheist of whom...

I am quite fond of.


:)

I rely on regular posters to "have my back" in a very special way: rushing through short articles in my free time, I miss many words. Sometimes it is necessary due to time, yet still others, I save for seminars and courses. More so, I work on statements that will never see the publication on the blog. They are live cases.

The corrections and additions often end up in my corrected analysis.

I do have fun, every so often, though time limits me. John reduces the number of news stories to those with great quotes, as does Ms. Vita K. They even transcribe when they can.

I am grateful for the input.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Sandy,

there is truth in the account at the No Parole page.

There is more, but suffice it to say, the child in the story was molested.

Peter

tania cadogan said...

Regarding stolen identities.
It is worth thinking about creating a google account, it is free , quick and easy to do. It then stops someone mpersonating you since each identity is unique.
Names may look the same but you may find they have a dot or dash added or they have replaced a letter with a number such as 0 or l instead of o(letter) or L(lower case)
I see this all the time in chat when someone complains of having their name stolen and when i look , it appears the same yet on closer inspection there are subtle differences.

It also allows you to wear an avatar and also to delete your post if you oopsy or double post.

Buckley said...

Victim impact statement of the girl. Just wow. It's all becoming clearer.

Buckley said...

Tania's right. In September, Sus and I had an issue with the ongoing troll posting in our names and we both switched to an account. Of course said troll had to take credit for it:

i controlled u and john and.. said...
My method of cloning names...forces registration :)

Sus said...

My local phone/internet company changed servers and I somehow lost my google log in. I suppose it's out there somewhere. :-)

Sus said...

The thing that sticks with me is that this mother continually calls the pedophile "my husband."

Lemon said...

Peter Hyatt wrote:

Sandy,
there is truth in the account at the No Parole page.
There is more, but suffice it to say, the child in the story was molested.
Peter
February 21, 2015 at 1:38 PM
__________

"There is more..." I would agree, in an understated, non developmental disability sort of way :)

Lemon said...

The more I read the mother's statement, the more horrified I am. But not for the reason she thinks. I will leave it at that.

Sus said...

When I post, I serial post. Sorry. I believe it is the mother posting. She is not deceptive in that regard. I agree with Peter in that she is deceptive in her feelings of not protecting her daughter.

It is why she calls it an affair...albeit using the cover that "they" called it that. At the site she gives, she also says he "cheated on me."

In her victim impact statement the mother tells how the pedophile found her on an online site. How he misrepresented himself, never worked, and she left the care of her daughter to him. The mother states that the pedophile openly joked about marrying her daughter when she was older.

The daughter's impact statement is sad in that much of it is the impact on her mother. She obviously is made to feel responsible for her mother's victimization.

Finally, the poster is deceptive in that she came here for validation of a point she herself doesn't believe. She posted under Peter's post on the shock of being betrayed. She wanted to show how she was blindsided through no responsibility of her own. Looking at everything the mother has done since finding out, her purpose seems to be, "Hey, I'm a victim. I had no idea." She can't face up to her imperfections and mistakes (that we all have) and her role in this. It's as simple as she wanted a husband, even if he was a deadbeat pedophile and betrayed her. It's not a crime, but it's deceptive not to face it.

Second Finale: :-) I hope the daughter reaches a point where she understands she is still being coerced, by her mother now. It's time for her to have her own thoughts and feelings.

john said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
john said...

Once he is introduced i would expect distancing language. Yes, she dose call him "he" and Him". Yet she slips into the up close and personal "donnie" and "my husband"

"I" = 83

"Me" = 20

"My" = 20

"We" = 43

"Daughter" = 7

"lauren" = 17

"Donnie" = 7

"Husband" = 1

"I know she is the victim, but I sometimes feel I am too. I have to deal with the aftermath (i.e. Lauren's baggage)

I wondering if this would be classed a subtle disparagement ?

GetThem said...

The author of the post who allegedly also commented in here too, admitted she portrayed the story so others could feel HER betrayal. In other words, the most important thing in the story was how she felt. Not concern for her daughter, not anger at the alleged stepfather. By the way... in the original post he is "her husband" keeping the relationship close. No mention in the original post that it's a step dad, or a consecutive husband, until in here where it is referenced in passing. So in other words, she is still with him? ick

Her statements show deception.

Kellie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Yes, when reading, she said my husband, not ex-husband. I also wasn't aware that he is/was the girls step-father. Due to her closeness to her "husband", I for some reason assumed he was the girls father as well.

I agree with what you pointed out about it being about her. She said towards the end that her daughter was the primary victim. Sorry, but Mom's don't think that way, when its something of this magnitude that we're talking about. She seems more concerned that her husband cheated on her, had an affair, and him and a young lady who was in love with him, had a physical relationship behind her back. :/

Anonymous said...

I don't understand it either. I'm sorry. :(

Anonymous said...

I'm going to give my thoughts on how a mother could do that/allow that.

One reason, which is the hardest to fathom is, the mother simply doesn't care.

Another could be guilt/denial. I don't know if those should be two separate reasons, and I don't think those would last forever.

Another I think could possibly be another horribly selfish one - shame. Public shame of herself. Like if others found out, they'd think or know that she's just as horrible for allowing it to continue. Maybe she thinks if she ignored it, it'll stop and no one will ever find out.

I personally can't understand how a mother could let something like that happen, continue, or how she could stay with the person who did it to her child. I can't say for sure, but I think I'd be in jail myself if I ever found out someone did something like that to my kids.

Anonymous said...

In addition to all the aforementioned analysis, why would you continue to defend yourself to that extent, on a blog? "Me thinks thou dost protest too much." Anyone can plagerize a true story for their own purposes.

Peter Hyatt said...

Lemon said...
Peter Hyatt wrote:

Sandy,
there is truth in the account at the No Parole page.
There is more, but suffice it to say, the child in the story was molested.
Peter
February 21, 2015 at 1:38 PM
__________

"There is more..." I would agree, in an understated, non developmental disability sort of way :)
February 21, 2015 at 3:28 PM


I'm always wrong. That's what so right about me.

Peter

Sandy said...

Sus,

Whoever wrote the original post about the molested daughter is not the person in the story they have their link attached to. It's just someone using that story. Im not arguing against the veracity of the account, however the poster is just using that story IMO. I just believe the original post is fabricated.

Buckley said...

Sandy- go to the documents of the site. Victim statement of girl (not Lisa but don't want to name here) on 8-20-2008. The second sentence starts with "My mother tells me stories..."

See if you think the mother described within parallels the person who wrote the words here.

Kellie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
elf said...

My first impressions regarding the website and the two impact statements is that the focus is more on the mother's pain and betrayal. I would like to ask the mother in what sequence did the events occur? Did the daughter tell her what was happening and then did she kick the stepfather out? Did he move out and then the truth was revealed? Did the daughters cutting begin before or after the stepfather moved out? Did the mother help the daughter write her victim impact statement?

Anonymous said...

You're right, the bottom line is, some women should never have children. I wish I could think of something better to say to you, but all I can think of is I'm sorry that that happened to you. It shouldn't happen to any child ever, and if God forbid it does, a mother should never allow it to continue, and even worse, blame the child. :( I'm sure you'll be scarred for life, but it seems like you at least found a way to deal with it in a healthy productive way.

Kellie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

From what I gather, she said on the other website, that she divorced him due to unrelated issue in 2002 (the daughter was molested from 2000-2002). The daughter had been cutting herself (seems like after this time period, in her teen years). It wasn't until 2007 she became aware of the molestation. She said the school, psychiatrists, dhhs, etc., were made aware but didn't report it.

I only read a few things on there, but I do kind of think it's a possibility that the person who posted here isn't the real mother, like someone else suggested. I did see that it was a lot about the mother herself on the other website, but I didn't see the sick wording (afair, in love, etc.) used here, unless I didn't read enough. I did see some odd, unexpected wording, but not as horrible as the comment posted here.

Sandy said...

OK Buckley I will read it and post what I think.

Sandy said...

Buckley,

I read through the page the link brings you to and read through a couple of the attached documents as well and finally found the victim impact statement.

I gotta tell ya, something is VERY off about the entire thing. I even read the "confession". I have to say, I don't normally doubt someone telling how they have been abused, and in this case, the individual was actually convicted. But, I have to say I think the mother's story is fabricated. The victim's impact statement sounds rehearsed. The mother's account has many indicators of fabrication. My best guess, I think it could be a case of Munchausen by Proxy. The victim's impact statement reflects what the mother has told the victim the impact on her was and little else. I even read the confession, and it is not clear what he is confessing to. He wrote the confession behind bars, and so, he wrote it it to try get out of jail earlier, but he does not actually confess to anything specific. He does use the phrase "my guilt" but he is speaking to the judge who has judged him "guilty" so this is reflective language. The mother's story seems very fabricated. This is reflected also in the way she came to this site seeking attention because she had been "cheated on". This is not someone in denial. This is someone who has prosecuted the individual. This seems like Munchausen by Proxy. I don't believe the mother's story, and I literally have never doubted an individual's story of abuse.

Sandy said...

Anon 10:10,

If you read far down on the link she does say she is upset she had been cheated on and says although her daughter is the victim she believes herself to be a victim also. And this is directly tied into her being upset about "cheating" with the daughter.

Sandy said...

And Buckley yes I do think that the writer here is the writer who prosecuted the guy.

Sandy said...

The victim state her mother tells her stories of the person she used to be and she is no longer that person. How is that concern or love? Something is very wrong with the story.

Sandy said...

The mother states

"I constantly asked if anyone had touched her inside the "bathing suit areas" and she always told me no."

This seems abusive in and of itself to constantly ask a child this. That in and of itself is invasive to constantly ask that if the child is saying no, why would the mother constantly ask that???

Sandy said...

The very concerning part is in the mother's impact statement, where she writes of her daughter's very extensive cutting habit all over her arms, abdomen, thighs etc. and how the daughter was not allowed to sleep alone unsupervised or allowed any privacy except in the bathroom with all sharp objects removed including pins. The mother had stated that her daughter still denies that she was molested.
So, I have 2 questions

1) If the daughter was that closely guarded to prevent cutting and allowed no access to sharp objects even in bathroom as the mother specifies, how did the daughter create such extensive cutting damage that she needs extensive cosmetic surgery to repair it (as the mother states)?
The mother also uses concerning language when she writes that she was very angry at "the monster who had mutilated my daughter". Who is the monster that did that I wonder?

2) If the daughter apparently does not recognize what was done to her in terms of abuse as the mother states she does not recognize she was molested, why would she have "sliced herself to ribbons" as the mother states?

Buckley said...

Sandy- I hear ya, but a reminder of Peter's caution:

Peter HyattFebruary 21, 2015 at 1:12 PM
This was posted here, so this is a repost.

I ask readership to read it, but respectfully, please t be careful about comments.

Megan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GetThem said...

So if she is divorced, then why is she still calling him her "husband." It would be ex-husband. The more we dig, the more unreliable the story becomes. I feel like we're being used for someone's fun. I'm done on this topic. Plenty of other posts to learn on in here.

Lis said...

"I think some simply did not comment on it due to shock or disgust. "

You got that right, Peter!

GetThem said...

Hi Peter,

Did you or someone else delete my last post from last night? I don't understand why. There was nothing rude or offensive about it. I see one Buckley posted was removed too and his was incredibly benign also. Maybe it was an accident.

Thank you.

Buckley said...

I don't think any of mine got deleted.

GetThem said...

I thought I saw one supposedly from you that said to be careful what you post and it quoted Peter asking the same thing. I guess I'm seeing things and imagining them too lollll.

Buckley said...

Yes, I still see that post three posts above yours.

Anonymous said...

These people are rancid!
Here's a link to a stalking protection request by Terry Horman:
http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/32788323-75/missing-boy-kyron-hormans-stepmom-seeks-fails-to-get-anti-stalking-order.html.csp#

I know when the news was drawing big bucks, someone jumped the fence, yanked a handful of my dog's hair out and left it at the curb. Then they left a bar code from a box and a science museum braclet near the front curb in the same place they always leave objects for the "hep the lil' children' charity drive.

Dog or God?

I'd take my God over their dog anyday. I live thousands of miles away and in no way shape or form could have any knowledge of the case.

Their critical thinkin' seminars simply fail. Their extortion is running the gammet, though.

trustmeigetit said...

Sandy commented at 11:54 about the mother stating she "constantly asked if anyone touched Her" as abusive. The context is what I too do not like.

Now, I'm a mom. So I do think of this as a mom.

Now, as a child I made aware of abuse because my mom was abused and specifically molested for years by her step grandfather.

My mom broke the cycle of abuse but spoke with me about it a lot. She told me what was wrong (touching specific places or even someone telling me not to tell anyone) and no matter what i could tell her and she would protect me. No matter what. I knew my mom would protect me.

My mom also was convinced that molestors could tell who they could manipulate. So to her, me being aware and knowing she would protect me....she was convinced would protect me. Since she was never spoken to about abuse and well her parents were abusive as well.

I do this with my son now. But I talk to him about what is wrong and to tell me if anyone touches him or hurts him. And I always stress more that mom will protect him.

Dad also will chime in but he is not comfortable talking about that stuff so I tend to be the one having the talks.

But I don't "constantly" ask my son if he was touched. I instead have had talks with him about whatis wrong and that I will protect him no matter what.

That woman to me enabled this behavior.

Her daughter was not protected and she should have been.

trustmeigetit said...

I wanted to make another comment about molestors being able to tell who they can manipulate...

So as I mentioned above, I knew my mom would protect me if something ever happened. I knew I could be threatened but as soon as I was back with my mom I would tell her and she would protect me.

So, with that, I found out as an adult that my uncle had molested 2 of my cousins. One was his own child, the other his brothers (my dad was his other brother) child. Obviously being my one cousins father he was never protected, and my other cousins parents were drug addicts and were never godparents on any account.

So with that said, despite having been alone many times with that uncle, he never laid a hand on me. In fact it was hard as an adult to learn that because I had spent so much time with him and he had never once even made me uncomfortable.

So I think it backs up what my mom was convinced of. I beleive he knew my mom would likely kill him if he had ever laid a hand on me.

And therefore never did.

The others were not protected and ever spoke of it until they were adults and to
This day spend time with him as if nothing ever happened.

I however refuse to ever speak to him.


Parents please talk to you kids. Make sure they know you will protect them.

The cicle of abuse will never end at this rate.



Lisa Banks said...

LISA SPEAKING HERE: The Statement Analysis Peter posted was about an affair. I used the word "affair" (and will regret it forever) to keep it within the context of the original statement, and the term "young lady" is defined as follows:

young la·dy
noun
a woman who is not far advanced in life; a girl.

ME: My daughter, Lauren, was a GIRL when this occurred. I was intentionally vague about HOW young she was in the beginning of my account, but clarified that almost immediately. My purpose in writing was not to disclose the "affair" as much as a "secret one spouse kept from the other" and at the time it seemed relevant. Not I am sorry I posted.

Buckley said...
Sandy- go to the documents of the site. Victim statement of girl (not Lisa but don't want to name here) on 8-20-2008. The second sentence starts with "My mother tells me stories..."

ME: The Victim Impact Statement, for those unfamiliar, is presented to the judge AFTER the verdict to aid him in determining an appropriate sentence. Ours were written and rewritten numerous times for dramatic effect and to keep within the length the State's Attorney suggested. She reviewed them and said they were great before turning them over to the judge (they were not read out loud). He stood up and said "I believe in America, and I believe in out justice system, however, a terrible injustice has occurred in this case." VERY dramatic. Naturally, we responded with "drama". My daughter was 16 when the trial occurred.

Sandy said...
Sus,

Whoever wrote the original post about the molested daughter is not the person in the story they have their link attached to. It's just someone using that story. Im not arguing against the veracity of the account, however the poster is just using that story IMO. I just believe the original post is fabricated.
February 21, 2015 at 7:05 PM

ME: Sorry. It's really my page. I never thought I'd be trying to prove this to anybody. Write to the email address on the site and I will reply.

Anonymous said...
You're right, the bottom line is, some women should never have children. I wish I could think of something better to say to you, but all I can think of is I'm sorry that that happened to you. It shouldn't happen to any child ever, and if God forbid it does, a mother should never allow it to continue, and even worse, blame the child.
February 21, 2015 at 8:50 PM

ME: Is your point that I should never have had children? I really hope not.

I do not blame my daughter for what happened. I left her stepfather 2 years after we married for other reasons, having nothing at all to do with this, as I was still unaware at the time. She was 10 at that time, but had visits with him for another 2 years, with her father's approval. She still had not told anyone what had happened. We moved out of the area when she was 13, and she began cutting then. I found out about that after a couple of months, and got her into counseling. I do not understand why she insisted she had never been molested for over a year of counseling before she slipped and said something she could not take back. She had not repressed it, she simply did not regard it as abuse. She had no idea that her behavior said something different, and does to this day.

Lisa Banks said...

Sandy said...
Buckley,

I read through the page the link brings you to and read through a couple of the attached documents as well and finally found the victim impact statement.

I gotta tell ya, something is VERY off about the entire thing. I even read the "confession". I have to say, I don't normally doubt someone telling how they have been abused, and in this case, the individual was actually convicted. But, I have to say I think the mother's story is fabricated. The victim's impact statement sounds rehearsed. The mother's account has many indicators of fabrication. My best guess, I think it could be a case of Munchausen by Proxy. The victim's impact statement reflects what the mother has told the victim the impact on her was and little else. I even read the confession, and it is not clear what he is confessing to. He wrote the confession behind bars, and so, he wrote it it to try get out of jail earlier, but he does not actually confess to anything specific. He does use the phrase "my guilt" but he is speaking to the judge who has judged him "guilty" so this is reflective language. The mother's story seems very fabricated. This is reflected also in the way she came to this site seeking attention because she had been "cheated on". This is not someone in denial. This is someone who has prosecuted the individual. This seems like Munchausen by Proxy. I don't believe the mother's story, and I literally have never doubted an individual's story of abuse.
February 21, 2015 at 11:33 PM

ME: I was in shock when I was told the truth. I was diagnosed with PTSD shortly thereafter, and cried my eyes out for weeks. I felt I should have known, but if I had known, had conspired, or had covered up, I would not have been so blindsided by the whole thing. I was virtually worthless at work, and the thought of sex turned my stomach, because all I could think of was him molesting her.

Her statement to CPS was given independently of me. I was not told in advance anything she would say and did not see much of the material until after trial when I went for transcripts. I could not have put words in her mouth, as I did not know what acts were involved and was advised not to discuss it with her until she had been interviewed.

I agree that his "confession" is a half-hearted attempt to get out of prison early, but my daughter doesn't, and was relieved to get a copy. I did not have the heart to tell her that he was probably intentionally vague.

However, at the parole hearing, one member of the parole board asked about the letter and he admitted it verbally. He said he did have one thing he wanted to address, and that was how many time it had happened. She had said "near-daily" and he wanted to "set the record straight" that it was "only 25 or 30 times."

Jaws dropped. But he DID admit verbally at the parole hearing what he only alluded to in the letter.

I am sorry you do not believe this happened. It did. I'd give anything if it hadn't.

Sandy said...
Anon 10:10,

If you read far down on the link she does say she is upset she had been cheated on and says although her daughter is the victim she believes herself to be a victim also. And this is directly tied into her being upset about "cheating" with the daughter.
February 21, 2015 at 11:35 PM

ME: You had it right up until the end. I do believe I am also a victim. Not because I was "cheated on" but because I ended up spending years trying to find out what was wrong with my daughter and years more trying to get her help to fix it. It also affected my ability to trust people, and when I hear a voice like his or see someone with his build or hairstyle, I feel my stomach knot up. Obviously Lauren is the PRIMARY victim, but I suffered too, along with everyone else who loves her.

Lisa Banks said...

Sandy said...
And Buckley yes I do think that the writer here is the writer who prosecuted the guy.
February 21, 2015 at 11:36 PM

ME: I am the person who reported it. The state prosecuted him.

Sandy said...
The victim state her mother tells her stories of the person she used to be and she is no longer that person. How is that concern or love? Something is very wrong with the story.
February 21, 2015 at 11:50 PM

ME: She had to edit for length. We often talked about funny things she had done or said as a small child. She is a very smart girl and was a very carefree child. Suddenly in her teens, that changed. This is what she meant (as much as I can speak for her)... she is no longer the carefree, joy-filled child she was before these events occurred.

Lisa Banks said...

The mother states

"I constantly asked if anyone had touched her inside the "bathing suit areas" and she always told me no."

This seems abusive in and of itself to constantly ask a child this. That in and of itself is invasive to constantly ask that if the child is saying no, why would the mother constantly ask that???
February 21, 2015 at 11:54 PM

trustmeigetit said...
Sandy commented at 11:54 about the mother stating she "constantly asked if anyone touched Her" as abusive. The context is what I too do not like.

Now, I'm a mom. So I do think of this as a mom.

Now, as a child I made aware of abuse because my mom was abused and specifically molested for years by her step grandfather.

My mom broke the cycle of abuse but spoke with me about it a lot. She told me what was wrong (touching specific places or even someone telling me not to tell anyone) and no matter what i could tell her and she would protect me. No matter what. I knew my mom would protect me.

My mom also was convinced that molestors could tell who they could manipulate. So to her, me being aware and knowing she would protect me....she was convinced would protect me. Since she was never spoken to about abuse and well her parents were abusive as well.

I do this with my son now. But I talk to him about what is wrong and to tell me if anyone touches him or hurts him. And I always stress more that mom will protect him.
February 24, 2015 at 10:00 AM

ME: In a nutshell, this is what our situation was. I was very cautious, knew that pedophiles can "choose" the right child to target, and taught my daughter to say NO if someone did something she did not like. We discussed the "bathing suit areas" in the context of being "private places".

Constantly doesn't mean daily, and I should have said "periodically". Probably twice a year, when we were in the car or alone somewhere she could talk freely, I would ask her if anyone had touched her.

Once I found out about a game of "show me yours and I will show you mine" in the neighborhood when she was about 5, so it did yield results, and it was appropriate to keep the lines of communication open.

While I had heard stories about stepfathers, it seemed like a negative and unfair stereotype, as I knew lots of great stepfathers, so i did not go into the relationship specifically suspecting him of anything. I was confident Lauren knew I'd put an end to it if she had told me.

She acknowledges now that she DOES and DID know it, even while it was happening. I am sure you will feel this is me "blaming her" again, but it isn't meant that way. I will never know why she did not tell me, or her dad, or her aunt, or a grandparent, or someone at school when they covered it in Sex Education.

Instead, the message she took away from the lesson where they were told that sexual contact between an adult and a child is illegal, was that they were BOTH committing a crime. That was when she made him stop (several months prior to our separation) because she thought they would both go to prison.

Kids her age were being taught about "stranger danger" and weird guys creeping the playgrounds, not someone at home. Now we know the MAJORITY of adult on child sexual assaults involve a parent, step-parents, sibling, or other relative.

Lisa Banks said...

Sandy said...
The very concerning part is in the mother's impact statement, where she writes of her daughter's very extensive cutting habit all over her arms, abdomen, thighs etc. and how the daughter was not allowed to sleep alone unsupervised or allowed any privacy except in the bathroom with all sharp objects removed including pins. The mother had stated that her daughter still denies that she was molested.
So, I have 2 questions

1) If the daughter was that closely guarded to prevent cutting and allowed no access to sharp objects even in bathroom as the mother specifies, how did the daughter create such extensive cutting damage that she needs extensive cosmetic surgery to repair it (as the mother states)?
The mother also uses concerning language when she writes that she was very angry at "the monster who had mutilated my daughter". Who is the monster that did that I wonder?

2) If the daughter apparently does not recognize what was done to her in terms of abuse as the mother states she does not recognize she was molested, why would she have "sliced herself to ribbons" as the mother states?
February 22, 2015 at 12:10 AM

ME: I learned by experience. She was a teenager, and the new kid in a small town when it started. She first cut herself with an exacto knife. Later she bought a pack of razor blades at the drugstore. When I found out about the cutting, I made her turn over everything. But she managed to find a box knife blade at school and secured it in her notebook. When that was taken, she realized she could break the glass from a photo frame and keep the sharp pieces hidden in her closet. Then there were wire coat hangers, and safety pins that I did not even think of as cutting implements, but she did.

I knew she had friends who cut, and had talked to her about it. She said she had not tried it but some friends had. So initially I thought it was a (sick) fad. There was a big "goth"/"vampire" crowd at her school, and she was on the outskirts of it. Many of her friends were cutters too, and would have given her a knife or razor blade if she had asked.

After I learned she had been cutting herself, I worried every day that she would kill herself (unintentionally) which is why I got her counseling. Eventually she stopped cutting with help from her counselor, but I learned a lot about what objects one can cut oneself with in the meantime.

I felt horrible not being able to leave utensils in the kitchen when I was not home. I feel like it implied a lack of trust, but given her history, it was necessary to make the effort to try to keep her safe.

The "monster" comment is one I came up with in counseling. On the one hand, I am so angry that someone (MONSTER) would cut my beautiful girl's perfect skin... but I feel equally sorry for my little girl who was cut so horribly (VICTIM). It is a confusing situation when someone you love self-harms. You are angry at the part of them doing the injuring, while sympathetic to the part being cut.

I do not understand the effect of sexual molestation in children and the correlation to self-injury in teens, but it is apparently a scientific fact, according to her counselors who insisted for a year that she had been molested while she swore she had not.

When she eventually told, and I asked what took so long, it was she who said that she never thought they meant "that". So her words imply that she did not recognize she was molested, but her actions, apparently, spoke louder to the counselor.

Lisa Banks said...

FYI -

In hindsight, the moment they sat me down (she and Dr. Smithpeter) in the doctor's office, I had no doubt it was true. A lot of things clicked and the pieces of our life that had not made sense before suddenly fit.

That was what made me relate to the storyteller in Peter's column.

I am so sorry this happened to my daughter (now a "young lady" of 23). I really thought I was being careful, and would have bet a year's pay I had done a good job, even throughout my entire relationship with her former step-father.

Obviously, that would not have been a good bet (for me), but I was so sure I would know if anyone had ill intentions, thought it would be obvious in her behavior toward anyone who was taking advantage of her, and believed she would tell me if anyone tried to molest her.

I had no expectation that people would doubt my words, question the evidence provided on the website, or suggest I have inflicted false memories on my child (Munchausen by Proxy? Really?), abused her by asking her more than once in her life if anyone was touching her inappropriately, or, as Anonymous (February 21, 2015 at 8:50 PM
that) said "the bottom line is, some women should never have children."

I am a real person. My daughter is too. Please do not minimize her tragedy just because you don't like my posts. We are both forever changed by what happened.

Ms Holzwarth said...

As a mother of child sexual abuse victims I am appalled at your willingness to label parents in the manner you have. It's people like you that make healing for our children incredibly difficult. How dare you say I don't understand. I know more about child sexual abuse, the effects, how to prevent, how to educate, and how to change the world around me for the prevention of it than you could ever hope to. That fact that you don't know what a kumquat is (a fruit) further proves to me that commenting further on this site is a horrible waste of my time. Sad, but I guess there are many people who would rather keep their head in the sand. Shame on you, for the things you have said to Lisa.

Peter Hyatt said...

It my defense, I knew it meant fruit but didn't know how to apply the insult to me.

Peter

Sus said...

Lisa and Ms. Holzwarth,
When my children were born and/or became part of my life, they became my purpose in life. Until their thought processes and emotions were mature my job was to protect them them. Their pain is my pain as if we are one.

Cutting, eating disorders, and other forms of self harm are meant to release negative pent up emotions such as pain and shame. I'm certain you know from therapy that your children still feel shame even though they shouldn't.

I will be very blunt, as a mother, I know I would blame myself if one of my children were molested. I would look at every little possible thing I missed, I did wrong, where I put myself before my child. I would put the blame and shame upon myself, and release my child.

That's where I see deception. Just to say, "I wasn't perfect. I brought a molester into my home." It makes it your shame rather than your daughter's. I just feel there is a constant subtle message in your words that your daughter should have known better, but she was only a child. No, she shouldn't have. She can only be released from that shame when her protector takes it on.

Kellie said...

Sus said

"Cutting, eating disorders, and other forms of self harm are meant to release negative pent up emotions such as pain and shame. I'm certain you know from therapy that your children still feel shame even though they shouldn't."

I can agree with this from personal experience. I am 54 years old and after I read my own posts on this thread I had to delete them. My mind once again was spinning because no one, except one anon, responded to me. It causes one to question themselves in ways that never go away. It creates a horrible wound in the psyche, especially when the other parent doesn't believe you. One expects to be able to go to their mother for protection. In my case, she called me a liar and threw me away. Even as I read over this comment I see the distancing language.... I wonder how long I'll be able to leave this comment up.

M. Madison said...

There seem to be quite a few commenters reacting to Lisa's post that really don't understand what she was trying to share. Perhaps she stumbled and didn't clarify that she was quoting her ex-husband, in stead of using his language, and perhaps should have quoted her daughter, instead of talking - as her daughter. Lisa has been attacked on here quite cruelly.

There is a huge difference between someone who works and advocates for child sexual abuse victims - minus their own child as an actual rape victim ~~ as opposed to someone who works and advocates for child sexual abuse victims WHILE their own child is a rape victim.

As a parent of two child rape victims, I can share with you that in each case, there is a mother and/or father who carry HEAVY guilt and shame for not protecting them from their monster. Some monsters are pretty savvy... some monsters are pretty threatening, some monsters are charming, and some monsters live in the same house as the child, while some monsters are the great uncle in the family, the sweet grandfather, the winning coach, the awesome Boy Scout leader who helped your son earn those badges, or perhaps is the loving priest who sees something exceptional in your child.

Piling on Lisa with cruel taunts and accusations is extremely unkind and is just an act of ignorance.

Anonymous said...

reacting to Lisa's post that really don't understand what she was trying to share
True. If you are not familiar with the site, we analyze words for what is shared, not what someone is "trying" to share.

didn't clarify that she was quoting her ex-husband, in stead of using his language, and perhaps should have quoted her daughter, instead of talking - as her daughter.

She was talking as a spouse scorned, not a mother. She tells us so:

My purpose in writing was not to disclose the "affair" as much as a "secret one spouse kept from the other"

We were brutally honest, and perhaps her original post isn't a reflection of her typical attitude, but her initial post came across as incredibly self-centered in a context that many felt should have been more focused on her daughter, whom we only learn about at the end of the post.

Sus said...

Kellie,
Have you ever done any of the inner child work? Learning to parent your inner child? Susan Anderson gives a nice exercise in her book "Women Who Love Too Much", but there are many other books out there.

Sandy said...

Lisa Banks wrote

The "monster" comment is one I came up with in counseling. On the one hand, I am so angry that someone (MONSTER) would cut my beautiful girl's perfect skin... but I feel equally sorry for my little girl who was cut so horribly (VICTIM). It is a confusing situation when someone you love self-harms. You are angry at the part of them doing the injuring, while sympathetic to the part being cut.

Who is "someone (MONSTER) cut my beautiful girl's perfect skin"?

Although I understand that "cutting" is certainly disturbing, I actually went through a period of cutting myself in my late teens, you describe it as if it were a person who was not your daughter cutting her. I also dont think that a person who cuts themself is a monster even while doing that--a lot of times it can be a desperate effort to relieve pain or even to regain the feeling one is "in their body" if the person is dissociating and feels very frightened to feel like they are not in one's own body rather outside of their body. I just feel like you describe it in an odd way
as if a separate individual was cutting your daughter.

Peter Hyatt said...

The main focus was the subject, not her daughter. It was that way when first posted here, and in the links provided.

The inability to see a failure to protect can come from a lot of different things but the bottom line is that when one is so focused upon her own hurt and betrayal, she will fail to see the damage done to her child. Being cheated upon came before the child abuse, not simply in order, but via pronouns.

Pronouns are instinctive and are given no pre thought.

The victim would likely have much to say.

Most parents who has had to deal with such horror comes to understand what could have been done differently to have afforded protection. It is a tough thing to bear in life.

I wish I knew less about child abuse.

Peter

Kellie said...

Hi Sus :)

Oh yes! I've applied a number of processes through the years, which is why I was a little shocked at my own reaction to what I shared here. It never goes away entirely and my reaction was just a reminder of that fact.

I'm well aware of how much less functional I could be as compared to others who've been molested. That awareness makes me grateful and for me gratitude is maybe the best medicine. It's been a long road.

Lisa Banks said...

Sandy said...

Although I understand that "cutting" is certainly disturbing, I actually went through a period of cutting myself in my late teens, you describe it as if it were a person who was not your daughter cutting her. I also dont think that a person who cuts themself is a monster even while doing that--a lot of times it can be a desperate effort to relieve pain or even to regain the feeling one is "in their body" if the person is dissociating and feels very frightened to feel like they are not in one's own body rather outside of their body. I just feel like you describe it in an odd way
as if a separate individual was cutting your daughter.

February 25, 2015 at 12:05 AM

ME: I understand your meaning, and the counselors explained that it was a (poor) coping mechanism. Nonetheless, when I saw deep scars on my daughter, it did make me upset that "someone" would do such a thing her. This caused CONFLICT with the feelings that she was the VICTIM of the cutting, while also being the perpetrator. I was angry that she had been cut up, but sympathetic to her reasons (once the truth came out). Initially I just did not understand it.

Sus said...

Oh Kellie, I hear ya! Though my healing is from the damage of another soul-destroyer, a narcissist. Eventually it becomes about the healing itself. It's like, "Darn, I can't even do this right. Why do I take longer than others?"
:-)

Then I get back on track by thinking it's my life, it's my moment. I can react how I need and want. There's no timetable. And I head for my goal of unconditional love that God has already had for me all along. So what if others think I'm a bit crazy along the way. :-)

Lisa Banks said...

Peter Hyatt

February 25, 2015 at 7:20 AM


ME: Your Analysis was about a man who didn't realize his fiancee was having an affair, even though it was clear to us (as outsiders) what was probably happening.

I tried to post my experience in a context that was similar. It was about a spouse who had done something behind my back that I had no idea of, though I look back and see things I did not consider suspicious at the time.

The focus of my post was me, because:
I was the one who should have seen the signs,
I was the one betrayed by a trusted spouse, and
I can not speak for my daughter.

I was "cheated on" by my spouse, not my daughter. I realize she was a victim, whether or not she does. I am confused that she did not confide in me, and had not interpreted the acts as "molestation" because there was no physical pain associated with them.

I dropped the ball when the incidents occurred, but I have done everything in my power since to try to make things as normal as possible for both of us, beginning with reporting the abuse to the authorities as soon as I became aware of it. I am the one who made and kept our medical appointments, paid for prescriptions, kept copies of every related document, have a CD of the trial, and make periodic trips to the courthouse to get copies of anything new that has been filed. I started a forum on Websleuths with Tricia called CAPER, where members can post notices of upcoming parole hearings and request assistance from others in convincing the parole board not to release these predators early.

I have solicited letters from law enforcement officers, mental health professionals, nurses, former child victims, and parents of child victims to present to the parole board, attended his parole hearing at a prison facility 2 hours from my home, and, along with Lauren, successfully kept him locked up for a few more years before he could apply for parole again. Now I am involved with State Legislators to introduce a bill to form a Child Sex Abuse Task Force in Maryland to help identify the issues that make it so difficult to identify and control, while simultaneously preparing for Donnie's upcoming parole hearing in July.

I agree that a mother protects her child, but a mother must also work to provide for that child, and must send her child to school, scouts, band practice, sports, Sunday School, etc. You can't ALWAYS be there.

My daughter was in a YMCA program after school at the school. When I married Donnie, my daughter's father reduced the amount of child support by the amount we had been paying for child care. I disputed the reduction, since Donnie had no income, but Lauren's father said that if Donnie did not work, Donnie could watch Lauren before and after school, and during vacations.

I feel HORRIBLE that this happened to my daughter. I believe that, had she stayed in YMCA care, it probably wouldn't have, but that was not an option. Donniee was her stepfather, they seemed to enjoy each other's company, I asked if she was okay with the arrangement, and she said she was.

Donnie was a lifelong predator. His history (which was not disclosed to me, as it was a family secret) included criminal acts, drug use, disciplinary schools, and a prolonged stay in a mental hospital his family referred to collectively as "prep school". This was revealed slowly over time, and was the eventual cause of my leaving.

Kellie said...

Brilliant Sus!

And that's exactly what happened. In that moment of reading my own comment I became a victim again to what others think! I slipped back into that old reality of feeling trapped by what my mother thought. That's the tricky part. Being able to recognize when I've slipped back into that mindset and then shifting my focus to who I really am in the here and now.

Anonymous said...

Something is so wrong with this. Mothers of victims do not call the abuser by their first names, ever. We use the last name exclusively or the full name. First names are personal and cause us to cringe. The repeated use of "Donnie" makes me want to vomit. Next, we don't blame our children or complain about "baggage", what an awful thing to say! I have never once thought of my child's pain as "baggage" and neither should you. Our children are the victims, not us! I grieve for my child, not myself, how dare you equate your pain with your daughter's. An "affair"! Another vomit worthy statement. That is your child, not a woman next door who was sleeping with your husband while you were at PTA meetings. Not a paramour, not a willing lover or a mistress but your child, your daughter, your baby girl. While I believe some of the story, as far as the abuse happening, you are clearly using your daughter's pain to gain sympathy for yourself. This is your daughter's story, not yours, and you have no right to minimize her pain and try to become the victim. I think you have a form of Munchausen by proxy.

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous, go easy on the authoritative pronouncements. I do not want people to think it is a S/A principle.

It is not true: many do call the abuser by first name.

Some call their abusive fathers "John" rather than "Dad", while others do not.

We look at context.

The first name can become just as "poisonous" to the victim and her family, as the last name.

Others cannot use any name.

There is no one "rule" to it, nor even anything close to being a principle.

Take a look at Bill Cosby accuser. Look at the names she uses in context to what is happening in the statement.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

LIsa,

you dropped the ball. You cannot fix it. You have nothing to gain in beating yourself up.

Be truthful with your daughter. Try to help the generational abuse come to an end.

Be the best person and best grandmother you can. Learn from your mistakes.

There may be a reason you focused on the betrayal and being cheated on; in that your daughter is grown, and you have quite a lot of remaining pain alongside the guilt of this having gone on under your roof.

What makes us different than others is the ability to own our errors and make changes.

If I had to do it all over again, I would change everything. Anything I did that ever hurt anyone, i would change.

I cannot, however, but I have to go on, as do you.

Be that person you wished you had been, and be a support to your daughter. She has lived through hell.

Peter

Sandy said...

I was the one who initially suggested Munchausen by Proxy. I believe her daughter was sexually abused but I believe the story of the cutting has many hallmarks of Munchausen by Proxy including the fact that it logically makes no sense. The daughter was not allowed to sleep alone and all sharp items removed even from bathroom where sharp items had also been removed yet the daughter somehow managed to cut herself on abdomen legs, thighs etc badly enough to need cosmetic surgery. Also, saying the daughter smuggled a box cutter home from school. I can tell you from having cut myself on several occassions as a late teen it was never a premeditated thing rather an impulsive act done in reaction to being flooded with overwhelming emotional pain. It is not something I believe people preplan to do or would smuggle cutting instruments to cut themselves with because cutters feel very bad after they do it and tell themselves they wont do it again, they would not make preperations to do it in the future. It is impulsive and they feel badly afterwards. Ironically I believe the reason I was cutting was because I had suffered Munchausen by Proxy by my mother who had the most severe form where she inflicted severe physical injury on me as well as most of my siblings at different points to get attention. These attacks were premeditated and made to look like they could have happened "accidentally". My point is I know what Im talking about. There is something off about her story of cutting. Her daughter may have cut herself at some point, but the extent of it, along with the holes in the story and the way it's described as if an outside person (MONSTER) is doing it, suggests something more sinister.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You're right, the bottom line is, some women should never have children. I wish I could think of something better to say to you, but all I can think of is I'm sorry that that happened to you. It shouldn't happen to any child ever, and if God forbid it does, a mother should never allow it to continue, and even worse, blame the child.
February 21, 2015 at 8:50 PM

ME: Is your point that I should never have had children? I really hope not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That was a reply to someone else. Not a comment to you.

Jen Ow said...

Truth!

Jen Ow said...

Well put Sus!

Jen Ow said...

Kellie,

I didn't see your original posts. I'm running a few days behind reading the blog. I just wanted to tell you, I'm praying for your healing, and peace. I'm sorry this story has reopened painful wounds for you. xox

Anonymous said...

Peter, I agree with your statement regarding the victims of the abuse using a first name, especially when applied to a biological parent being the abuser. However, my statement was concerning the mothers of the victims. Lisa's repeated use of "Donnie" when referring to her daughter's abuser is something I find concern with. I have never heard a mother do this. I have been involved with many mother's of survivors in the work I do, and I find this shocking. I even went through statements this morning looking for a mother using a first name, and I could not find one. Most will say a full name, last name, "he", "step father", "biological father", "the abuser", "the perp", "the monster", etc. I do not believe it is a conscious decision to stop using a first name, I believe it is deeper than that and rather a subconscious reaction within the mind. I stand by this based on the statements of hundreds of mothers. I find it shocking and concerning.

Kellie said...

Thank you Jen Ow for your kind thoughts. :)

I wish the best of everything for anyone who has been touched by the horrors of abuse! Including Lisa. Peter has given you some great advice. Be now what you wish you'd been then. You can't change the events of the past, but you can change the future and that makes the past seem far less important!

Lisa Banks said...

To


Anonymous said...
Peter, I agree with your statement regarding the victims of the abuse using a first name, especially when applied to a biological parent being the abuser. However, my statement was concerning the mothers of the victims. Lisa's repeated use of "Donnie" when referring to her daughter's abuser is something I find concern with. I have never heard a mother do this. I have been involved with many mother's of survivors in the work I do, and I find this shocking. I even went through statements this morning looking for a mother using a first name, and I could not find one. Most will say a full name, last name, "he", "step father", "biological father", "the abuser", "the perp", "the monster", etc. I do not believe it is a conscious decision to stop using a first name, I believe it is deeper than that and rather a subconscious reaction within the mind. I stand by this based on the statements of hundreds of mothers. I find it shocking and concerning.

February 26, 2015 at 2:07 PM

I am not going to call my daughter's assailant "Mister" anything. That suggests respect. Also, "Donnie" is a LOT easier to type repeatedly than ANY of your other suggestions. Perhaps if he had been a "Jones" I'd have called him by his last name, but it is 11 letters long and rather distinctive. His MOM is alive, as are his SIBLINGS, and two SONS, and I really do not see any need to drag them into this, which using his (distinctive) last name would do. We often use "he" when talking about this, but in typing, I tried to be clear WHICH "he" I was referring to, as there are other males (detective, biological dad, judge, detective) from whom I felt it necessary to distinguish him.
It is currently not PC to call the perp the "monster" but to refer to the VICTIMS as the "monsters" because it gives them power. Check out Dreamcatchers for Abused Children on Facebook. I am SURE that would not have gone over well here. I'd have used "he" every time I needed to refer to him, but sometimes, for clarity, a name is helpful, and Donnie was his name for himself. Personally, I think any adult male still using a diminutive of his name when he has no living relative with the same name is odd. I can't explain why, but it seems sleazy. I was originally introduced to him as Donald. So, while "Don" would be shorter, "Donnie" sounds sleazier, which is probably why we use it, instead of his last name.
As for "stepfather" I have been trying for years to figure out how to have our marriage annulled, in which case he would be neither "my ex-husband" OR "my daughter's step-father".

Game on! said...

"It is not a truthful account."

So, did Hyatt ever apologize for getting this wrong? I get her disgusting point of view, but court documents prove it is not made up like he implied.