Wednesday, June 10, 2015

Statement Analysis: Duggars Interview


Statement Analysis of the Duggars on Fox News regarding allegations of sexual molestation.  Statement Analysis is in bold type, with emphasis added for clarity.  


June 3, 2015. 

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: It is a story that has generated hundreds of thousands of headlines and plenty of criticism. Tonight for the very first time, the family that became famous for their conservative Christian values and their 19 children speak out about a painful secret involving their oldest son and the actions that he now admits were inexcusable.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.
Just hours ago in Arkansas, I sat down with members of the Duggar family, stars of the hit TLC show "19 Kids and Counting." We discussed the serious allegations of inappropriate touching some 12 years ago by then teenaged Josh Duggar.  Some of the topics we will discuss tonight are troubling and not intended for young viewers.
But first, a look at how we got here.


And then a bombshell. May 19, 2015. 

In Touch Weekly reports the Duggars' 27-year-old son Josh had been named in a prior sexual abuse investigation. Two days later on May 21st, the magazine reprints what turned out to be an illegally released police reports. It reveals that Josh while 14 or 15 years old forcibly touched at least five girls in 2002 and 2003. The report makes clear the victims include Josh's younger sisters.  

 The day of the second In Touch report, Josh Duggar issues an apology, writing in part, "12 years ago as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others including my family and close friends."  

His parents and wife of six years also issue statements. Wife Anna saying Josh told her about his past before they got engaged, that she was shocked but that he had gotten help, humbled himself before God and changed the direction of his life.

The media pounced.

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR: Big news coming out of the cross-section of the conservative culture wars in reality TV.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, TLC pulling its hit show "19 and Counting" about the supposedly wholesome Duggar family, off the air.
BYRON PITTS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: On the show "19 Kids and Counting," Josh Duggar and his family are portrayed there's a picture of wholesome perfection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hypocrisy is so real with this family. How dare they shame the LGBT community. How dare they condemn them for their immoral lifestyle when they are -- when the Duggars are the immoral ones?  I say screw you, Jim Bob and Michelle, screw you.
KELLY: So why would a family with such a painful secret launch a reality TV show and was it hypocritical to preach family values knowing of their own son's repeated sins?
I asked them that and much more in our Duggar family interview right now.
(on camera): Take us back to 2002. How did you first learn that this was a problem with Josh?

JIM BOB DUGGAR, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": Well, 12 years ago, we went through one of the most darkest times that our family have ever gone through, and our son Josh came to us on his own, and he was crying. And he had just turned 14, and he said that he had actually improperly touched some of our daughters. And it was --

MICHELLE DUGGAR, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": We were shocked. I mean, we were just devastated. I don't think any parent is prepared for a trauma like that. And I think we had one way of hope and that Josh had a tender conscience, and he was the one that came and shared on his own even though the others really didn't know anything of his wrongdoing.

It is common for those who are married for a period of time to enter into each other's personal, subjective, internal dictionaries.  They finish each others' sentences, and even mimic each others' face expressions, leading people to conclude that a married couple, after many years, "look alike", when, in reality, it is because they identify with each other so strongly as to share language and share face expressions.  

We look for lots of use of the pronoun "we", and, when together, we expect to hear "our" children and "our" son, as the norm.  If we see a change in pronouns, it should be noted as strong and personal.  

We also expect parents who are truthful to:

a.  own what happened
b.  take responsibility for what happened 
c.  minimize what happened. 

Objection: Why would truthful parents be expected to minimize what happened?

Answer:  Truthful parents will own what has happened, but still, due to the painful topic of sexual abuse, some minimization may be found in the language.  

It is also in the language of abusers, as well as the language of victims.  

This tells us that the topic of sexual abuse is one so serious that people struggle to distance themselves from it. 

Of victims:

Victims sometimes feel guilty for childhood sexual abuse, will act out (including self destructive promiscuity, substance abuse, and self harm in various ways. 

They often have compromised immune systems (as evident in the adult illnesses they face) as well as passivity in language, which may appear deceptive, yet stems from the possibility of disassociations, including Dissociative Identity Disorder; another means in which a child's brain protects itself.  If the abuse pre-dated speech, we may see an entire host of new problems facing the child moving towards being an adult, including developmental issues and boundary issues.  

KELLY: This is a young boy who has come to you with shocking information. What did he say? I mean, how did you respond to him? What was that like, that exchange?

Note that the Interviewer asked a compound question consisting of three questions:
1.  What did he say?
2.  How did you respond?
3.  What was that like?

M. DUGGAR: There was so much grief in our hearts. I think as parents we felt, we're failures. You know, here we tried to raise our kids to do what's right, to know what's right. And yet one of our children made some really bad choices, and I think as a parent, we were just -- we were devastated.

Note as the subject describes what "we felt", she began with "I think", and then moved to "we"; this is a strong statement of one who recognizes that what she felt and what her husband felt, may be different.   
"We tried" recognizes the failure as parents.  This confirms the guilt expressed earlier.  

"Some really bad choices" uses softer language for molestation.  This is the expected part of minimization that parents do in face of something this horrible.  

KELLY: Did he explain why? I mean, was that a question that you asked?

J. B. DUGGAR: 

He said he was just curious about girls, and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. They didn't even know he had done it. And so we went, and the first thing was to protect the girls. And so we went in --

KELLY: The girls all slept together?

M. DUGGAR: Hm-mm.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. The girls had two bedrooms at the time.

KELLY: How many girls are we talking about?

J. B. DUGGAR: We had five girls at the time.
KELLY: OK.

Analytical Interviewing:  Do not ask compound questions; do not finish sentences for subjects and do not interrupt the subject.  

J. B. DUGGAR: So, anyway, he went in and said he had done this, and so we, first off, of course, really talked to him and then we went and talked to all the girls, the children.

"Of course" wishes for us to accept what was done without question.  

M. DUGGAR: It was so important for us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened.

This is a realistic response that goes in the opposite direction from the minimization.  The concern is that the one who molested may not be truthful.  

KELLY: So, what did they say?

M. DUGGAR: One by one, as we talked with them, none of them were aware of Josh's wrongdoings.

"were aware" is passive language.  

The reader should be on alert for an element beyond minimization:  deception. 

Both minimization and deception (including self deception) are to protect oneself, but it is in willful deception that the intent to deceive is evidenced.  
"None of them were aware" is not to say, "They said they did not even know about it" or anything similar.  


KELLY: So they learned about it from you.
M. DUGGAR: Yes.
J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. Yes.

KELLY: At that point, he had said that he had done this to how many of the girls?

J. B. DUGGAR: That was to two.

KELLY: OK. But neither one had any recollection of it.

Do not make statements:  it teaches subjects how to lie.  

J. B. DUGGAR: They did not know.

Even this sentence is not reliable, as it stands.  It is not offered freely, but in response to the Interviewer's statement.  In this denial of knowledge, we first had passive voice, which is not strong, and now we have a shorter sentence that affirms what the Interviewer said, rather than freely putting together a sentence to communicate this clearly. 

This is where non-trained people "feel" like something is wrong.  The intuition has a sense that this idea: that the girls did not know they had been molested, is not communicated strongly, nor plainly, and it is not part of the natural or expected minimization.  

KELLY: And what was their reaction when they learned it from you?

It may be that the Interviewer sensed the weakness of the answer that the girls did not know they had been molested.  This is a good question to ask, therefore. 

J. B. DUGGAR: They didn't -- they really didn't know. Actually, what happened was we asked them at first if anything happened. And then it was after some other things happened that we actually shared with them, and we actually -- but we took a lot of steps. And first we tried to deal with this in-house as parents. We were in shock and we were trying to figure out what was the next step. But really, looking back, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

"They didn't" is stopped in self-censor.  Then, the sentence is completed, but qualified:  "they didn't really know" which tells us:

They knew. 

The subject is not truthful, nor is this the expected minimization.  This tells us that there are some things the girls may not have known, but there were some things they did know and...

on it's own merit, it is likely that he did more than touch them outside the clothes. 

Note the use of the word "actually" which tells us that while he is talking about one thing, there is another thing in his mind.  He is comparing two or more things that took place.  This is not consistent with just touching the girls over their clothing, unawares. 

The subject, himself, had he been told this, does not believe it, therefore, he is either directly deceiving the interviewer, or attempting to deceive himself.  Either way:  he does not own his own words. 

This may be that there were a series of molestations, with the earliest unbeknown to a sleeping child (or two) but the situation did not stay that way.  


KELLY: You're saying, what am I going to do? You're saying, he says he's touched two of the daughters, and you don't know what to do, right?

The interviewer puts words in their mouths, rather than bring them to the free editing process. 

J. B. DUGGAR: Didn't know. Because at that point now nobody knew about it besides Michelle and I and Josh. And so we thought, what do we do with this information? And the girls, we talked to them, and they didn't know that anything had happened because they were asleep. And so we talked to him, we put all kinds of punishments on him, we watched him, like, all the time. I took him to work with me, and he just -- I mean, we just poured our life into it.


Note the dropped pronoun.  

If the analysis is correct; that there is a plurality of issues, it makes sense that among one incident is the touching while asleep, but this does not explain all incidents, and all knowledge.  


KELLY: Like when you went to bed at night during that time frame, were you scared? Were you worried? You know, he's 14, he's having this problem. What's going to happen when we go to sleep?

J. B. DUGGAR: Right. Nothing ever happened like that again in the girls' bedrooms after that.

Note the location of the abuse is specified to only the girls' bedrooms. 

KELLY: OK.

Here is the explanation why "actually" was used repeatedly; he was thinking of a different event:  

J. B. DUGGAR: OK. So, we had safeguards that protected them from that. But there was another incident where -- two different incidents where the girls were, like, laying on the couch, and it was -- he had touched, like, over the couch and actually touched their breast while they were asleep. And so

M. DUGGAR: Over their clothes.


J. B. DUGGAR: -- over their clothes. And so it was a very difficult situation. But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families. And so -- I mean, this is, for us, of course, this is public shame that our son did this back 12, 13 years ago.

KELLY: When you heard that the behavior had resumed, describe what that was like for you.

J. B. DUGGAR: We thought, you know, at first that Josh, you know, was on the road to mend at first, but he was still a kid, you know, and he was still a juvenile. He wasn't an adult. And so there was a couple more times that he came and told us what he had done, and we were just devastated.

All of these -- again, this was not rape or anything like that, this was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple incidents where he touched them under their clothes, but it was like a few seconds and then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened, and it was after that third time he came to us is where we really felt like, you know what? We have done everything we can as parents to handle this in-house. We need to get help.

This is the minimization that we expect:  admission with the word "but" that to follow it, seeks to minimize the damage done.  Here, they admit under the clothing, but minimize it due to the factor of time.  

Frequency and intensity are both minimized. 


And that's actually when we went to outside folks and we asked some very close friends if they could come over, and some of my best friends came over. We talked about it, and so at that point we pulled Josh out of the home, and we knew of a man who mentors young men, and he really helped young men who had made unwise choices in their lives to get straightened out, and he was running a little training center in Little Rock, Arkansas.  And under the roof of that training center, he had Little Rock Police Department on one side, then you had a prison minister on the other. And he said Josh could come down there and actually do some construction work with him and he would counsel him and work with him and hopefully get him straightened out.

Few parents are willing to commit their teens to the criminal justice system. 

KELLY: Some people have said, why did they wait? Why didn't they go to the authorities or go for the counseling at the very first time he came to you?

J. B. DUGGAR: You know, I talked to somebody that worked at one of those juvenile youth sex offender facilities, and he described how they actually take care of these situations down there, and the success rate is not very good.  And so we felt like that going from a perspective of really reaching his heart first would be important, and so that's the reason we sent him down to Little Rock to work with this man.
KELLY: Did legal ever pop into your mind? Like we may have legal obligations?

J. B. DUGGAR: You know, what? As parents you're not mandatory reporters. The law allows for parents to do what they think is best for their child. And so we got him out of the home, and we sent him down to this place, and that was really probably the best decision we made through this whole process, because it was at that place -- this was the first time Josh has been out of the home.

KELLY: He was 15 at this point.

J. B. DUGGAR: He had just turned 15. And it was that the point that he came into himself, and God really worked in his life. As a matter of fact, he broke. And he went and asked God to forgive him. He went back and asked those who he had offended to forgive him. But we felt like the last jurisdiction of who to  make things right with was the law.
note the correction to his age

KELLY: And we'll going to get to that in one second. The subsequent incidents after the first one involved daughters who were awake, at least a couple of them?

J. B. DUGGAR: There was a couple, yes. And they didn't really understand, though, what happened.

KELLY: Yes. What --

M. DUGGAR: It was more his heart, his intent. He knew that it was wrong. But in theirs they weren't even aware. They were like, you know, it wasn't -- to them they didn't probably even understand that it was an improper touch.

KELLY: I know that the ultimate one before you really got help involved a very young daughter, and I'll avoid the age because I don't want to identify anyone specifically, but a single digit. I mean, what was that like for you to hear? You know, one, you must have thought for some time this is a pubescent boy, I don't know what he's going through, but he's testing. But when it moves to a young daughter --

J. B. DUGGAR: Right. At that point, that's when we pulled him out of the house and we said, he can't be here. And so, we pulled him out and then, he went through working with that man --

The molestations continued.  This is also the expected in pattern moving it from curiosity to impulse control. 


KELLY: Yes. He goes through counseling.
J. B. DUGGAR: Yes.

KELLY: And then when he was done with the counseling, this is not like a licensed therapist, it's somebody, a Christian-based --

J. B. DUGGAR: Christian based. But I'll tell you why.

KELLY: Treatment facility.

She should not finish sentences.  

J. B. DUGGAR: It really had a huge impact on his life. And it really, that was the turning point in his life. And this man really reached his heart.

KELLY: And before Josh went away, you know, in the period where the girls knew, and he knew and you knew when you're living in the house together, what was that like? I mean, what was the dinner table like?

J. B. DUGGAR: Well, we tried to make things as normal as we can, but also, you know, Michelle and I both were keeping an eye on Josh, you know, all the time and watching his behaviors, watching his attitudes.

KELLY: And prior to him leaving, were you concerned for the safety of your daughters?

M. DUGGAR: Well, we definitely put safeguards in our home.
J. B. DUGGAR: Yes, and we also talked to our daughters and reminded them about wrong and right touch and about if anybody ever touched you in a wrong way for you to come and tell your mom immediately.

The question is avoided by M. Duggar, but affirmed by J.B. Duggar
Note that should it happen again, they were to go to M. Duggar with the info; not J.B. Duggar according to the sentence.  The minimization may be even more on the part of M. Duggar, which suggests:

a.  She may not have believed everything;
b.  She may not have believed the girls
c.  The girls may have sensed this reluctance. 

M. DUGGAR: Immediately. And we tell them that you have a safe place to share your heart. And so we were trying to protect and watch and make sure that their hearts were safe, they had a safe place to talk, and at the same time putting boundaries and safeguards up in our home.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. We weren't going to give up on Josh.
(END VIDEOTAPE)


KELLY: Did it feel at all like a "Sophie's Choice," you know, I have to protect my daughters at the expense of my son or vice versa?

J. B. DUGGAR: You know, I think it was a situation where we felt like our son's heart had gone astray. I think Jesus shared a story about he had a hundred sheep and one went astray, and there he was. He took care of the 99 but he also went after the one that went astray. And so, as parents we still loved Josh and we love our other ones, but we're going to protect those that are in our hands, but also we're going to make sure Josh doesn't make any wrong choices.

M. DUGGAR: It doesn't mean that you're not a good shepherd. Jesus is a good shepherd but he went after that one that went astray. And so I think as parents we were trying to do the best that we knew how to help this one and protect these. And I feel like through that, as we came to that point where, you know, Josh shared, you know, improperly touching a young one, we were devastated and we said, we've got to send him out of the home. He has got to go and seek counsel and get help.

Note in the negative, with "it doesn't mean" showing reluctance to take responsibility.  Note the struggle with guilt; the struggle being in resistance. 

KELLY: Did you feel --

M. DUGGAR: And I mean, it was like that evening when they left and took him that same day, he just was weeping and shared immediately what he had done. And so, we were weeping and the little one was like, what's wrong? Why are daddy and Josh leaving? And as we're all weeping, the next day and for days and days I was saying, you know, Josh has done some very bad things, and he's very sorry.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. But I was thankful. The ray of hope was that Josh had come and told us and his heart was still soft. Because we wouldn't have known about any of these things if he hadn't come and told us.

KELLY: All this you learned from Josh.

Feeding information rather than seeking it. 

J. B. DUGGAR: And actually none of the victims really knew about this or understood what he had done until we told them.

KELLY: What about that Jim Bob, as a parent, did you feel guilty when you learned that his behavior had continued and other girls in the house had become victims?

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. I think as parents, you feel like a failure when one of your kids does something wrong. You feel like if I had done more training or maybe something else that this wouldn't have happened. But the truth is that kids will make their own choices. And they will make their own decisions even though you've taught them what's right and wrong.

KELLY: I'm asking you more as the father of your girls than as the father of Josh. You know, it must have been very hard to look at your little one and know the behavior had been ongoing, as difficult as your position was.

J. B. DUGGAR: Right. I was so thankful, though, that Josh came and told us. And our girls, even though this was a very bad situation, as we've talked to other families who have had, you know, other things happen, a lot of their stories were even worse.

KELLY: And just to clarify, it was four daughters and there was a babysitter outside the family.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes.

KELLY: Okay. And you notified her about the incident.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. He called her up and asked her forgiveness, and she didn't know that he had done anything, either. So, it was more just like a --

KELLY: A fondling.

again, note the finishing of sentences yet J.B. changes language: 

J. B. DUGGAR: -- a touch while they were asleep for most of them.  Then there was two other incidents that when they were awake, and it was just a bad thing. It was something we would like to forget.

KELLY: Let me move back to the therapy. Because you sent Josh to this treatment center.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes.

KELLY: But was there more therapy for Josh and/or the girls?

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. What happened was when Josh came back from Little Rock, and we felt like the last step was to make things right with the law because he had broken the law. And so we took him down to the local police station, actually the closest one to our house, and as Arkansas state police headquarters, and walked in and talked to a man there --
KELLY: Let me stop you there.
J. B. DUGGAR: Yes.

KELLY: What was that like? I mean, how do you make the decision as a parent to bring your child to law enforcement and turn him over?

J. B. DUGGAR: We felt like it was an important step for Josh to confess to the police what he had done because he had broken the law. And we felt like if we didn't do this that this would be something hanging over his head the rest of his life.

KELLY: Was it terrifying?

J. B. DUGGAR: It was very terrifying.

KELLY: What was that like? Were you worried, Michelle, that he wasn't going to emerge out of that law enforcement?

J. B. DUGGAR: We didn't know if they would arrest him at that point or what they were going to do, if this would going to open up an investigation for our whole family or what was going to happen.

M. DUGGAR: And now we were waiting to hear, you know, are they going to serve a warrant, come take him away? We didn't know what they were going to do.

KELLY: Well, since the Duggar story broke, there have been a lot of accusations that the family went out of its way to skirt the law and keep their secrets quiet. We'll dig into that when we come back.

KELLY: How did you choose the person to whom you would surrender him?

KELLY: Welcome back to our exclusive sit-down with the Duggars.  Since the story broke about Josh Duggar molesting young girls a dozen years ago, the tabloids have suggested this family went out of its way to hide its secret. Starting with how the family first decided to approach the police.



KELLY: How did you choose the person to whom you would surrender him?  Because there's been some question about whether you chose a friend, someone who you knew would go easy on him.

J. B. DUGGAR: Yes. I had a towing business for years, and so I did know a lot of the officers around here, but we went into the Arkansas State Police --
KELLY: At police headquarters?

J. B. DUGGAR: -- at the police headquarters. Walked in, this man was there. We went in and talked to him and said, hey, my son has something that he needs to share with you. And we actually took a witness with us.  We went in and sat down and he shared everything.

dropped pronoun; this may have been reluctance. 

KELLY: He told it all.

J. B. DUGGAR: He told everything. And we had no idea that what that officer was going through on his own.

KELLY: So the audience knows, that officer is now in jail for 56 years for child pornography charges. Did you have any idea he was involved in that at the time?

M. DUGGAR: That came out years later. We were, like, shocked to read that in the paper.

KELLY: So the critics were saying, oh, they chose that guy because they thought he would be sympathetic.

J.B. DUGGAR: I didn't know anything about this guy besides that he was an officer there at headquarters.
Stronger move from "we" to "I"; 

KELLY: From prison where he's serving for child pornography, he says, well he only told me about one incident that's why he pursued charges.

J.B. DUGGAR: I was questioning why in the world he would say that, maybe he would get on parole or something sooner because he violated the law in this case himself by not reporting it.

KELLY: The bottom line is you went to a law enforcement official, you reported it. Josh told him everything.

J.B. DUGGAR: Everything. We took a friend with us to -- because we wanted to make sure that we had a witness that would -- you know, that would verify that we had shared everything.
Element of fear
KELLY: I know you said he gave Josh a stern lecture.

J.B. DUGGAR: He did what he did. I didn't know what he was going to do.

KELLY: Did he warn him the law could come after him?

M. DUGGAR: Yeah, he said if you continue down this path, you're going to destroy your life and you can end up in prison.

KELLY: When that was over -- you think it's over, I assume?

J.B. DUGGAR: We didn't know. A few weeks went by, a few months went by.

KELLY: You're waiting when the doorbell's ringing, you're wondering whether someone's there to arrest him?

J.B. DUGGAR: And then later, there was somebody that called the hot line and said that the Duggars had reported this before...

KELLY: We're getting into that. First I want to ask you about the counseling because the counseling Josh got in that treatment center was that the only counseling he ever received. What about your daughters?

J.B. DUGGAR: No. Josh actually went and had complete professional...

KELLY: The real licensed therapist counseling?

M. DUGGAR: All of our children received professional counseling, including Josh. After this, all of our children received professional counseling, including Josh, who paid for his own counseling himself.

This is oft required that the perpetrator take responsibility, even for the counseling fees. 


J.B. DUGGAR: It was an accredited professional counselor.

KELLY: Did you feel when Josh had been through all of this, he had gone to the Christian-based treatment program, he had gone to counseling, he had gone to the police and he emerged back into the home. Did you feel that he was a threat, still, or did you feel that he could be trusted at that point?

Long sentence, with compound question

J.B. DUGGAR: Not at all.

KELLY: Did you ever worry that the treatment didn't work, especially with so many young children in the house?

J.B. DUGGAR: No. No. Josh was a changed person.

M. DUGGAR: We still had those safeguards in place. I mean, there were a lot of things that changed in our understanding as parents with this first child, first son to come to this place in his life, we're like, there were things we learned even since then that I think, you know what, we don't let boys baby-sit. They don't play hide and seek together, the two don't go off and hide. There are just a lot of things we've put in place.  You're not alone in a room with someone else. Always be out visible, and, you know, little ones don't sit on big boys' laps or people that you don't know or even family members, unless it's your daddy. So we just -- there's boundaries that we've learned --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: One of the big questions this week, how did the tabloids learn the Duggars' secrets when they were supposed to be in a sealed juvenile record? When we come back, the Duggars will share what they think, and they will answer this.



KELLY: What would make you launch a reality TV show about your family given this past?

KELLY: The Duggars moved on, and in 2004, their large brood began to gain national media attention.

KELLY: Resulting in TV pieces about their family. In December 2006, things nearly unraveled. With the family in Chicago and about to go on the Oprah Winfrey Show, someone leaked the story of Josh Duggar's behavior to Oprah's production company, writing in part, you need to know the truth.  They are not what they seem to be. Harpo studios faxed a letter to authorities and a police investigation was formally opened. According to the now revealed police reports, which as juvenile records were not subject to disclosure, a judge is dealing with that separately. The family told police that Josh had been inappropriate with five girls. Five victims were interviewed and confirmed that Josh was sent to a Christian treatment program. Each victim said no other reviews had taken place by anyone else or by Josh after counseling. Ultimately it was determined that the three- year statute of limitations had run and authorities decided not to bring charges.

KELLY: Ok, so it's all behind you, for all intents and purposes.  Then in 2008, you launched a reality TV show. What would make you launch a reality TV show about your family given this past?

J.B. DUGGAR: You know, back early on, it was after all this was taken care of in 2002-2003, we actually had a magazine that came to Michelle and said, hey, can we do a story about your family? And we said yes, that would be fine.

KELLY: But are you thinking at all, wait, this might not be a good idea because when you bring cameras into your home, they tend to discover things and people get more interested in you.

J.B. DUGGAR: We had nothing to hide. We had taken care of all that years before. And when they asked us to do the reality TV show, all of this had been taken care of five years before and we had a clean bill of health from the state. We said you had gone through counseling, you told the police...
Indication that not everyone agreed doing the reality TV show was wise...

KELLY: Did any of the girls or did Josh say, whoa, hold on, mom and dad hold on.

J.B. DUGGAR: We had no fear because everything was taken care of, and that was a -- that was actually a sealed juvenile record. And they had told us that all this stuff was done as a juvenile, this was all stuff that was sealed, and this is stuff that under law there is no way that this could ever be brought out.

KELLY: Did you live in fear that it might come out?

Good question, sensing the weakness in the assertion of having "no fear" as it needed explaining with "because";
Note that "everything was taken care of" is not to say that everything was "fixed", or "fine" or even that the therapists said he was "cured" or it was "just childhood exploration", or anything like this.  
Length of explanation belies the "no fear" statement. They had fear and lots of it.  Note the reduced commitment here: 


M. DUGGAR: I don't know that we lived in fear because we had all resolved it, it had been forgiven, we moved on with life.

KELLY: When you heard that in late May that the story had broken, that you hadn't been given a heads-up by any of the official police involved that they were going to do this, what was your reaction?

J.B. DUGGAR: I said, God, I know that there are a lot of families out there that are hurting, and you know what? This isn't something we wanted to come out, but if people can see that Josh, who did these very bad things when he was a young person, that God could forgive him for these terrible things, then I hope other people realize that God can forgive them and also make them a new creature.

The religious belief indicates:
Not that one can be forgiven and still struggle with propensity but that the forgiveness removes the propensity. 

KELLY: Was there any motivation that you know of for this police chief to want to hurt your family?

J.B. DUGGAR: I'm really not for sure -- there's some kind of personal agenda or something.

Recognizing that the police chief had a personal agenda that clashed with the Duggar's belief and that she would use it to exact retribution.  Besides agenda, other motives could exist, including envy.  

Was there thought to how this would humiliate and re-victimize the girls?

KELLY: Have you had any prior dealings with her?

J.B. DUGGAR: You know, I think Josh had talked to her one day at a meeting, and he said hi to her and stuck out his hand, and she turned and wouldn't talk to him. She was getting ready to retire, and just even a few weeks ago she said, I'm getting ready to retire and there are a few things I want to do before I retire.

KELLY: You think you were on the list?

J.B. DUGGAR: I think I was on the list.

KELLY: Any chance of you suing her or the city for this disclosure?

J.B. DUGGAR: We're talking to some attorneys about that right now and we'll see. But I think the big picture is protecting juveniles' records.  And I think that's something that we want to be an advocate for protecting juvenile records because the mistakes that juveniles make when they're young should be sealed.

KELLY: How has this -- there's been so much focus on your son. How has this affected your daughters -- the release of this information?

J.B. DUGGAR: I think our daughters have -- you know, they were shocked to hear this. It's something that crushed them at first.

KELLY: They did not want this out publicly?

J.B. DUGGAR: No, they didn't want this out. No victim wants their minor story to be told. Every victim should have the right to tell their own story, not a tabloid.

KELLY: The main charge we've heard from your critics has been they are hypocrites. They preach family values. Josh once said we are the epitome of conservative values, yet they had this secret and they weren't honest with the world about who they were.

J.B. DUGGAR: I don't think you go up to total strangers and say, hi, my name is so-and-so and I want you to know everything I did as a child, and just share about your past. Every family has things happen in the families. Some families may have darker things than others, but everybody deals with something.

KELLY: What the critics are going for is that you shouldn't have been preaching about moral values when you had a secret like this in your own family, that you should be calling other people sinners when you yourselves are sinners.

J.B. DUGGAR: Our son violated God's principles from doing some improper touching. That was terrible. But yet I think it's been recently said that what Josh did was inexcusable but it was not unforgivable.

KELLY: Mike Huckabee said that. I know he's a friend of your family.  Michelle, let me ask you, because you were in the news for making a robo call that suggested transgender people might want to go into the bathrooms of girls -- locker rooms of girls and that they may be child molesters.  Folks have used that in the past week against you saying how could you unfairly, in their view, compare transgender people to child molesters, knowing what you know about Josh?

M. DUGGAR: I think that protecting young girls and not allowing young men or men in general to go into a girls' locker room is just common sense.

KELLY: But this is different because you injected child molestation into it.

J.B. DUGGAR: I think you actually said pedophile, and a pedophile is an adult that preys on children. Josh was actually 14 and just turned 15 when he did what he did, and I think the legal definition was 16 and up for being an adult preying on a child. So he was a child preying on a child.

KELLY: You do not view Josh as a pedophile?

J.B. DUGGAR: No.

KELLY: What I'm asking is can you understand the critics' reaction to this news?

M. DUGGAR: I can understand that, but I know that every one of us have done things wrong. That's why Jesus came. I feel like this is more about -- there is an agenda and there are people that are purposing to try to bring things out and twisting them to hurt and slander.

The victims are "hurt", with "slander" being legal language. This could be a  lawsuit. 


KELLY: So were the Duggars targeted by the tabloids because of their Christian beliefs? They answer that question and talk about the future when we come back.


KELLY: What happens to the Duggars from here?

KELLY: So what's next for the Duggars and their show? And do they feel their beliefs made them a target? Watch.

KELLY: Do you think that the backlash against the Duggars has been greater because people object to who you are and who you stand for?
M. DUGGAR: I think some people do.
KELLY: Do you think in particular your Christian beliefs are an issue here??
J.B. DUGGAR: I think people on the outside say Christians are supposed to live this perfect life. No. All of us as Christians, we struggle every day.
KELLY: What happens to the Duggars from here?

J.B. DUGGAR: I don't know if the rest of the family should be punished for acts of our children that happened 12 years ago or not, but, you know, we are fine whether they film us or not. We're going to go ahead and live life and serve god and make a difference in the world.
M. DUGGAR: We're going to enjoy our children and grandchildren and continue on with life. Either way, we're at peace.

KELLY: Do you think the show will be canceled? Has TLC given you any indication?

J.B. DUGGAR: You know, at this point our family is just trying to regroup from these attacks. When you're in every newspaper and everything throughout the world, it's been an unprecedented attack on our family. And it was actually -- this information was released illegally, so I wonder why all this press isn't going after the system for releasing juvenile records.  That is a huge story. Now, what our son did 12 years ago, I'm sure it's a major story to them too, but yet, hopefully justice will be served on the ones that released juvenile records to protect other juveniles' from their records from being released.
KELLY: It must have been terrible. I mean I'm sure you're going through hell right now.

M. DUGGAR: What's devastating as a mom for me is we took our children to the children safety center. We trusted them. We trusted the police department. Our children poured out their hearts. They shared everything.  And then to have their trust betrayed? And for all of their information and everything they share to be turned over to a tabloid, for those things to be twisted and shared in a slanderous way, story after story, tabloid after tabloid. That breaks my heart for my girls because I think this is such a horrible -- they've been victimized more by what has happened in these last couple weeks than they were 12 years ago because they honestly - - they didn't even understand or know that anything had happened until after the fact when they were told about it. And so I think there's not -- in our hearts before god, we haven't been keeping secrets, we have been protecting those that, honestly, should be protected. And now what's happened is they've been victimized. But people with an agenda, and for whatever profit they think they're going to get? But in this, one thing I know is God is going to use all of this for good.

Long responses are often more emotional. 

KELLY: Jim Bob, Michelle, thank you both so much. Thanks for having us here.

J.B. DUGGAR: Thank you for telling our story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: But our interview actually did not end there. In moments a preview of what is sure to be the big story out of our time with the Duggar family as I sit down with the sisters, two of them who identify themselves as Josh's victims for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Sitting here today, when I said "victims," you furrowed your brow a little. Do you feel like the victim of molestation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Before we go a word about our children. One in five girls and one in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse in this country. Three out of four adolescents who have been sexually abused were victimized by someone they knew well. What are the odds someone like Josh Duggar will offend again? Researchers say most young offenders are male and between the ages of 12 and 14. According to a 2009 DOJ analysis, long-term studies have shown that some 85 percent to 90 percent of them never are arrested for sex crimes again. If you know a victim in need of help, please call the National Child Abuse Hotline at 1-800-4-ACHILD. In a stunning follow-up to our interview, we sat down with two of Josh Duggar's sisters today.  It's a remarkable and emotional exchange with Jill and Jessa who discuss what Josh did to them and how they felt when they learned their story had gone national.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL (DUGGAR) DILLARD, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": They don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.
KELLY: And yet they did.
DILLARD: They did.
JESSA (DUGGAR) SEEWALD, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": The system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes, or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are affected by those choices, it's just -- it's greatly failed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Our sit-down with the Duggar sisters airs Friday night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. We want to hear your thoughts on our Duggar interview. You can go to Facebook.com/thekellyfile, also follow me on twitter @megynkelly.  Let us know what you think, thanks for watching, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.

To release sealed records is not only criminal, but it is to re-victimize the traumatized victims of childhood sexual abuse.  It must be a powerful motive to go that far in doing so, if this is, in deed, what happened.

In the many years I have interviewed both children and adults regarding sexual abuse, the minimization is the expected from all parties. 

The damage, however, is far more than most realize.  I have interviewed many adult victims of childhood sexual abuse who's suffering is difficult to quantify.  It is not just the lost childhood years, or the destroyed adolescence where shameful memories haunt them as they tried to destroy themselves, but there is, even among adults, a guilt they feel and fight against, sometimes daily, that somehow, they were to blame. 

The trauma inflicted upon them is heightened if it pre-dated speech.  Here, the child does not even possess the language to describe what happened, and sometimes can sound like a liar because of it 

The myriad of heartache can be seen in the studies of women who were sexually abused in childhood who's bodies were able to fight off cancers, and other diseases, and who died young because of it. 

As the hormonal rises took place, even in childhood, there was no resolution of "talking oneself down" from the trauma, leaving life long imprints upon the brain. 

As adults, they "see" things differently than others, and can "hear" things differently than others. 

Their bodies react in bizarre ways that make them appear to be liars. 

For example, one woman's arm was hot to the touch, while her other arm was cold.  

For years, doctors did not believe her until she experienced it in the doctor's office, only to learn that many other victims of early childhood sexual abuse experienced the same, bizarre bodily reaction. 

Many of them have a lifetime of suicidal ideation, and a certain touch or smell can set them "off" into fear, rage, and even, as adults, self abuse. 

Professional women, strong, well educated and articulate, home alone, slamming their foreheads into brick walls, in a moment of acute pain, but not understanding why.  Then, healing from the concussion, returning to the work place as "if nothing was wrong." 

The suffering goes on every day, and does not take a holiday, as such things as Christmas can cause an acute episode of anxiety or pain. 

 A scent can trigger the body to run a fever.  

There is so much, in fact, that doctors struggle to classify the suffering of an adult who has been sexually abused, with male victims often taking out their anger upon others, while the females often take out their rage upon their own selves.  

The families of victims suffer, too, far more than people recognize.  

They struggle because they love the victims and can have suicide rates much higher than the general population as they feel incapable of alleviating the suffering of their loved one, and can struggle against hopelessness. 

I did  not watch the Duggars show, and do not know what happened that the tabloids released this information, but it is cruelty to the victims.  

That they chose a life style contrary to pop culture and political correctness is their own choice, yet it appears to have created more press than some of the major news stories of today, including terrorist attacks, political scandals, and stories far more important to society.  

105 comments:

Rachael said...

Hi Peter!

I noticed a mis-quote that is interesting. You wrote:

"They didn't" is stopped in self-censor. Then, the sentence is completed, but qualified: "they didn't really know" which tells us:

But JB's qualification isn't "they didn't really know", rather "They really didn't know"

I can't point to a specific principle, but what he said feels more sensitive to me than "they didn't really" know. The first implies that there were things they DID know, but the other sounds like a desperate attempt to convince that the girls were oblivious to what happened.

I would love to hear your take on the difference in analysis that small transposition makes. :)

John mcgowan said...

J. B. DUGGAR: -- at the police headquarters. Walked in, this man was there. We went in and talked to him and said, hey, my son has something that he needs to share with you. And we actually took a witness with us. We went in and sat down and he shared everything.

"dropped pronoun; this may have been reluctance."

Is the "reluctance" shown with the entrance of "walked in" and "sat down"?

Body posture: "sit, stood, stand, sitting, standing, ect" as sensitive because when body posture enters a statement, it is often an indicator of strain or tension. Given that body posture enters the statement here it is noted.

My boss said finish your reports.

My boss "stood" (body posture) and said finish your reports. Also when the word "said" is replaced by "told" this will increase the tension even more. It is more authoritive.

"We sat down in the car and chatted" People don't stand up in cars to chat, to feel the need to add "sat down" one must wonder if the "chat" was a serious topic? And as seen, the topic here is very serious.

John mcgowan said...

NEW INVESTIGATION
LAUNCHED AGAINST
DUGGAR FAMILY — 911
CALLED


The Duggar family is under investigation again by the Arkansas Department of Human Services and police were called when the family refused to cooperate, In Touch magazine is reporting exclusively in its new issue that hits newsstands today.

A representative from the Washington County DHS called 911 on May 27 at around 11 a.m. asking for police assistance when DHS was not allowed to see the minor they were concerned about. In Touch, which broke the story of Josh Duggar’s sexual molestation scandal, has the full transcript of the emergency call in the new issue.

The new investigation comes as the family tries to save its TLC reality show, 19 Kids and Counting, which the network pulled off the air, while determining its fate. Jim Bob, Michelle and two of their daughters sat for interviews with Fox News, attempting to minimize the damage, but much of what they said was widely condemned as misinformation and not full disclosure.

The Duggars made no mention of the fact that they have been under investigation again, but In Touch discovered what they are hiding via another Freedom of Information Act request that produced the 911 call.

After identifying himself as a Washington Country DHS employee and stating the Duggar family address, the caller tells the 911 operator, “We have an investigation and I guess they’re not being cooperative. We have to see the child to make sure the child is all right. So we just need police assistance.”

DHS records are not available to the public so it is unknown what prompted the investigation. Experts tell In Touch that an investigation can be triggered by a hotline complaint, even an anonymous one, if the trained operator determines the allegation is serious enough that it meets standards for child abuse maltreatment laws.

The Duggars were investigated by police in 2006 for Josh’s acts of molestation committed in 2002 and 2003. DHS then investigated the family in 2007, as In Touch first reported.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/new-investigation-launched-against-duggar-family-911-called-60330

Sara said...

JB-"I don't know if the rest of our family should be punished for acts of our Children"
He said "acts of our children" as opposed to the actions of one of our children. He blames his daughters (with Josh) for what Josh did. This was the sickest thing I read out of the whole interview.
He showed ZERO empathy for his daughters. His concern over the release of the police report was only concern for juvenile perpetrators; again, not for the victims and their privacy.

FYI the police report made clear that it was the victims who came to their parents, Not Josh as his parents would like us to believe.

Aside from Josh's crimes, I DO want to see someone punished for leaking that report. Those poor girls had suffered enough and it angers me greatly that the system chose not to prosecute and vindicate them at the time and then the system violates their privacy. Someone need to be held accountable.

Anonymous said...

I give a great deal of credit to the Duggers for their struggle and their in-depth interview, even if some of their comments were minimized to some extent. I feel that what Josh had been doing was a heart breaking struggle for Michelle & Jim Bob and that they did everything humanly possible to help Josh overcome his dark tendency towards pedophilia, and took every measure they knew to take towards all of their children when they learned of Josh's secret behavior.

However, I do believe that something else happened in 2006 to cause Jim Bob to take Josh down to the State Police to confess and turn himself in; who was, by this time, over eighteen years of age and legally an adult. It would appear that if Josh had already been cured years earlier, there would have been no logical reason to pursue the matter any further.

I was disappointed that the interviewer did not ask about the anonymous letter that was written and passed out of the Dugger home inside a book someone in the Dugger family passed on to a friend. Someone was desperate to bring the matter to the attention of someone else outside the family. Who wrote this letter, and when? Who was the person who reported receiving this letter and who was it reported too? This is vital information that was not covered in the interview, nor have I seen it covered anywhere either prior too or since the interview.

Obviously, there is more to the story. THREE times Josh in his guilty anguish confessed these secret molestations to his father, molestations that he knew were wrong but was unable to stop himself from doing while continuing to do them? What about after the THIRD time?

I have read in other comments that Josh stated he had done these molestations at least fifteen times. Not a single one of these girls ever realized what he was doing to them? Not a one? I do not believe this. I am sorry for the Duggers and their struggle; however, I also believe that Josh IS a pedophile who will need permanent counseling and monitoring for (likely) the rest of his life.

I believe (in fact I KNOW), that Jesus is a powerful healer, but sometimes he sends healing to us through someone else, such as various types of physicians, and others; and even though the Duggers and Josh turned to Jesus for comfort, guidance, understanding and healing, and are still holding on; it is my belief that they also need to use the treatment of those professionals who are trained in these areas and can further help them.

Peter Hyatt said...

Sara,

the punishing of the girls is about the re-victimization.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

John,

to "sit" in the car is to indicate the tension as this is what body posture shows.

The "chat" or "sharing" is expected minimizing language that comes with sexual abuse. It is the norm.

"Share", I think, speaks to it trying to sound voluntary...

Anonymous said...

Obviously SOMEONE in that house knew what Josh was doing to them; the one who wrote the anonymous letter and sent it out anonyously, seeking outside help to stop him.

John mcgowan said...

Snipped:

Josh and Anna Duggar moved out of suburban Maryland this weekend in a fleet of moving trucks and with a body guard for Josh during the packing. A body guard? What the hell is going on there? I mean, people are upset with him over his actions all those years ago but does he really expect someone is going to chase him down and pistol whip him or worse while he’s filling boxes in his Maryland home?


From US Weekly


Helping hand! Steve Neild, who famously served as a bodyguard (and rumored fling) for Kate Gosselin, continued his relationship with TLC’s biggest stars this past weekend when he spent time at Josh Duggar’s house.
Neild was on hand at the disgraced 19 Kids and Counting star’s Oxon Hill, Md. home, which he recently listed for rental. While Neild will not be serving as full-time security for Duggar, 27, and his wife and three children, he was at the family’s aid as they prepared for the moving trucks
TMZ had this to say about the move….

According to The Daily Mail and The Inquistr (yes I know, tabloids both) the Dillards, Jill, Israel and Derick are going off for an extended mission trip to earthquake devastated Nepal

Jill Duggar and Derick Dillard left 19 Kids and Counting fans with a pretty big cliffhanger during the show’s season finale. In a preview clip for the upcoming season, Derick and Jill broke some “special news” to the entire Duggar clan, but fans didn’t get to see what it was — they simply heard Jim Bob telling the couple that what they were doing was “a huge step” and that he would be praying for them.

Luckily, Jill Duggar may soon escape the intense media spotlight that has been shone on her family in the wake of the scandal, and her fans won’t have to watch 19 Kids and Counting to find out what the couple’s big announcement is — the Daily Mail has discovered that Jill and Derick are going on a mission trip to Kathmandu, Nepal.
Keep in mind the source is a supposed Duggar ‘insider”
But it might explain this email popping up on Facebook that is supposedly from Derick Dillard.

Click link for email

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2015/06/new-dhs-investigation-of-the-duggars-jim-bob-michelle-refuse-to-cooperate/

Anonymous said...

To carry this a step further: "We sat in the car smooching for an hour or so..." Why is it so ill fitting to say we "sat in the car" since you obviously wouldn't stand in the car? If not sit or sat, what else would you say if that's what you were doing? That is, of course, if you weren't standing on the car seat with your head and upper torso protruding out of the sun roof...

Of course, you could say "we laid down in the car", but if you weren't lying down in the car, why say you were. Sitting or sat seems perfectly logical to me...

Anonymous said...

John, it was announced a week or so ago, with photos, that Josh & Anna were moving their family to a new home they had purchased. It was a rather ugly, sort of dilapidated rambling house badly in need of repairs. Perhaps this is where they were moving since they had already made these plans? Seems logical to me, wouldncha think?

As to them having a temporary body guard; can't say that I blame them, whether Josh is proven guilty or not. There are people out there who would shoot an accused pedophile dead in a New York minute if they had the chance. You know this is true.

Anonymous said...

Peter,
Is there any way to reach you one-on-one?
If so, please contact me at junkmail@disposable.com (this is the email address I use when a website "insists" on me providing an e-dress so they can spam me). I will check it frequently in hopes of hearing from you.

Sara said...

Peter
The comment about punishing was their response to how they felt about their show being suspended. Basically that it was punishing to all the Duggars. But, they said they were all being punished for "the acts of our children." Children is plural. More than one child's actions brought about the punishment. I don't understand your comment.

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous 12:02: You can reach me via Face book or www.hyattanalysis.com


Regarding "not knowing", the obvious sensitivity and self censor is noted.
It is in the plurality of acts that we find this: one sister may have been asleep for one time, but not for others.

I did not belabor the point due to the obviousness of it.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Sarah,

You are right; I am wrong. "Children" is plural, and yes, he does blame at least one, perhaps for talking, or he is referring to someone else. I tend to think the spreading around of guilt among the "children" is the reason.

Thank you,

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

PS

Sara, not "Sarah"
!

Sara's point is correct.

The blaming of the victim re-victimizes the abused. It only adds to the pain.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous said...
To carry this a step further: "We sat in the car smooching for an hour or so..." Why is it so ill fitting to say we "sat in the car" since you obviously wouldn't stand in the car? If not sit or sat, what else would you say if that's what you were doing? That is, of course, if you weren't standing on the car seat with your head and upper torso protruding out of the sun roof...

Of course, you could say "we laid down in the car", but if you weren't lying down in the car, why say you were. Sitting or sat seems perfectly logical to me...
June 10, 2015 at 11:16 AM >>

Thank you for the opportunity to address this.

"We were talking in the car" is quite plain.

"We were sitting in the car" uses body posture.

Body posture in Statement Analysis is a signal of increase in tension, or importance.

"My boss said to be at work at 8AM."

versus

"My boss stood and told me to be at work at 8AM"

In the car, there is either "sitting" or "lying down" but to be "sitting" is generally not necessary until the person wants to, in the brain "stop the action" in the car; that is, the person is thinking about what took place in the car--an important (or tense) conversation, for example.

"There is a man outside my house in a car watching my house."

"There is a man outside my house sitting in a car watching my house" is very close, but with the latter, there is an "effort" to add in the man's body posture. The second statement may signal, for the speaker, an increase in concern about the unknown man in a car, outside of his house.

When I hear it in an interview, I take note of it, and remind myself to return and ask,

"Tell me about when you were in the car" seeking to learn what was said or done during that time period. Was there a phone call? Did the person use drugs?

Something of note happened or was said, which is found in just this small additional word. It may not be relevant to the overall investigation, but I do not like to miss a thing when I am seeking information.

:)


Peter

trustmeigetit said...

Sara noted "He said "acts of our children" as opposed to the actions of one of our children. He blames his daughters (with Josh) for what Josh did"

I do think they hold both boys and girls accountable for desire. Even while swimming, they must wear shirts and the girls must wear long skirts still.

They call it being modest with their clothes. Michelle made a comment about it when asked. See below.

MICHELLE: "By keeping those private areas covered, there's not any "defrauding" going on. My kids are taught the definition of defrauding as stirring up desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled. We don't believe in defrauding others by the way we dress. And different people may be defrauded by different things. We can't control their thoughts, but we're responsible before God for our part."

So I wonder, how were girls dressed when the "touching" occurred. Were they in pajamas that were less modest. I would also wonder if they became more modest after the "touching" occurred.

Boggled said...

I was struck by the following:

1) How likely is it, really, that a teen came and told his parents what he had done? THREE times? Liar's number

2) "No victim wants their minor story to be told." This from the father of a victim? "Minor" story? Not to her.

Sara said...

I also noticed this (which now seems even more crucial after reading John's comment about a New investigation):
M-- "...first child, first son to come to this place in his life..."
She didn't say 'first BORN child' or 'first born son'. She said first. That implies a Second. I would be concerned that another son has possibly also molested someone
M--"...one of our children made some really bad choices...we were devastated". I saw NO mention of being Devastated that her daughters were molested. No guilt or sense of failing as a parent for her failure to protect her daughters. Also, where in the world was child protective services? "failure to protect" is child neglect. Allowing a person who abused a child to return to the home is "subjecting a child to the risk of harm." Why did the Duggars receive what I perceive to be preferential treatment from CPS/DHS? We, as a society, failed these poor girls.
Peter, you nailed the minimization of the crime-- J--"This was not rape, or anything like that" and "We've talked to other families...their stories were even worse."
I'd like to know exactly who they "talked to" with "even worse" stories and make sure those victims are being protected!!
This crap makes my blood boil!!
My son was molested by a family member of my ex-husband. The predator also molested his own brother. Not only did daddy dearest refuse to protect our son, or his nephew, his entire family sides with the molestor and turned on my son. The molestor's parents didn't even protect Their son. I was vilified as a bitter ex wife. Cause after all, they said, "boys do this", "it's not abuse". Yup! It's normal for 12 year olds to show pornography to 7 year olds then sodomize them. After all , (quoting the detective) "he didn't use physical force" then chastised my son for "participating". I then hired an attorney and got an order of protection against the perpetrator. My son is safe. I wish I could say the same for my former nephew. I grieve for him, too.

Anonymous said...

Cal me CRAZY

All the comments are really solid for this analysis. A second Duggar male? Interesting! 3 times, of course! Wondering out loud HOW much further that the briefest touch occured under the cloths? What are the chances he actually had sex with the oldest female Duggar?

The Duggar's tried for a long time to keep this within the family. If they could have prevented it's reoccurance i would have to agree with them it was the best course of action. But they couldn't and they eventually resorted to telling authorities, which promptly apparently backfired on them (CPS investigations). Has the possibility arisen that ANY of the Duggar girls were willing participants playing Dr. style?

John mcgowan said...

OT:

Portsmouth mother missing for nearly 2 weeks

PORTSMOUTH, Va. (WVEC) -- A Portsmouth mother has been missing for nearly two weeks.

Police are trying to find 32-year-old Kathleen "Katie" Barham. She was last seen Wednesday, May 27, around 10:30 p.m. when she went to wash a load of clothes in her apartment building on Bickford Lane in Churchland, said Det. Misty Holley.

Katie's boyfriend and father of her two children, Rich Fegan says he was falling asleep on the couch that night, when Katie went missing.

"She started washing the clothes in the laundry facility in the building. A little while later I woke up with her complaining saying the dryer's not working, and she had to go to the building right here (points to next apartment building) to dry the clothes," he said.

He says he woke up around 1:30 a.m. and Katie was gone.

"All the lights were on, the TV's on and she's not in the house. I walked out to our laundry room and then that other laundry room and she wasn't there. But her clothes were there. The clothes were slightly warm. Til 2:30 in the morning or whatever, I was walking around yelling her name. I came home and the next day I called the police," he said.

Portsmouth Police did not assign a detective to the case until June 8 -- 11 days after Katie was reported missing. Police were at the complex Tuesday afternoon, canvassing the area. 13News Now asked police why they waited so long to investigate. They sent us this statement:

"The Portsmouth Police Department is dedicated to the protection and security of all people and providing quality public safety services. As such, we investigate all missing person reports whether the person is an adult or child. Detectives assign investigative priority to these cases based on the known circumstances of each case, exercising particular care to cases where the missing person may be in danger, mentally or physically impaired, under a doctor's care, or on life-sustaining medication. The department is fully dedicated to assisting citizens with locating missing persons and attempt to determine the facts and circumstances surrounding each reported case, making contact with family members as soon as possible.

At this time, we are conducting an internal review to determine what caused a delay in assigning the missing person case of Kathleen Barham to a detective for follow-up investigation. Ms. Barham's case is being investigated to the fullest extent possible to determine the facts and circumstances surrounding her disappearance. The department will ensure the family is completely aware of all our investigative efforts, and we are working assiduously to locate Kathleen "Katie" Barham."

Family members spent the day posting flyers throughout the area, hoping that someone saw something that night.

John mcgowan said...

Cont..

"The wheels have moved way too slow. It left me sick. I am sick about it. We are frantically worried about her," Katie's cousin Lee Deans said.

Robert Poisal is the boyfriend of Katie's mother, who lives in Lynchburg. He made his way to Portsmouth last Sunday to help Rich take care of the kids. He believes Katie may have been kidnapped at a nearby gas station. He says she was low on coins for the washing machine and may have walked over to the Royal Farms or Wawa.

"We've looked around. I've looked around numerous times. Finally police showed up. I think she was kidnapped. I think someone grabbed her," he said.

13News Now spoke with Katie's father David Barham over the phone. He says he last spoke with Katie on May 25, and says she was happy--everything seemed to be okay. He only found out she was missing a few days ago.

"I didn't find out about it until the following Saturday – 9 days after it happened. Something is not right. It's totally out of character for her. She is the mother of two small children who she dotes on. Something wrong has happened here. Whoever has her I wish they would at least let her go. She has children that depend on her. I'm feeling helpless and frustrated," he said.

Fegan admits he and Katie had their share of problems, but says she would never leave her children behind.

"We've had arguments before or whatever. We've been together nine years. There's been two or three times in our nine years where she went away for the weekend to her mom's, but I know she didn't walk away from us is what I know. I think someone took her. I know that she wouldn't leave ," he said.

Katie's last Facebook post was an inspirational quote about friendship, posted at 12:24 a.m. on May 28.

Barham has hazel eyes and long brown hair. She's about 5'2" tall and weighs 135-140 pounds.

People were posting about her disappearance on the 13News Now Facebook page.

Crystal H. wrote "Katie has 2 beautiful children that need their beautiful mommy to come home."

If you can help locate Ms. Barham, call Crime Line at 1-888-LOCK-U-UP.

http://www.13newsnow.com/story/news/local/mycity/portsmouth/2015/06/09/portsmouth-mother-missing-for-nearly-2-weeks/28733137/

Peter Hyatt said...

This story is not that a teenager simply was curious and touched two sleeping sisters. There is a much deeper, and darker back story to it all. These things just do "not happen to everyone" but all have a beginning, somewhere.

Peter

tania cadogan said...

KELLY: Do you think the show will be canceled? Has TLC given you any indication?

J.B. DUGGAR: You know, at this point our family is just trying to regroup from these attacks. When you're in every newspaper and everything throughout the world, it's been an unprecedented attack on our family. And it was actually -- this information was released illegally, so I wonder why all this press isn't going after the system for releasing juvenile records. That is a huge story. Now, what our son did 12 years ago, I'm sure it's a major story to them too, but yet, hopefully justice will be served on the ones that released juvenile records to protect other juveniles' from their records from being released.

A long winded answer and he doesn't answer the question which makes it sensitive.

Rachael said...

KELLY: How has this -- there's been so much focus on your son. How has this affected your daughters -- the release of this information?

J.B. DUGGAR: I think our daughters have -- you know, they were shocked to hear this. It's something that crushed them at first.


This has been bothering me all day long.
Is it possible the girls were not told immediately after Josh told his parents? That they learned of this only when it went public?

Anonymous said...

Thanks for finally analyzing the interview with the parents. I always find your commentary insightful and valuable.

Please consider analyzing the interview with the girls, Jill and Jessa, two of the five victims. Thanks.

Nic said...

Not that one can be forgiven and still struggle with propensity but that the forgiveness removes the propensity.

IMO, people's "propensity" is hardwired right into their very fabric. Some things, like pedophilia (propensity to sexually abuse minors, IMO, whatever your age,) cannot be rehabilitated. It's always there. Still waters run deep.

I agree with you Peter when you say, " These things just do "not happen to everyone" but all have a beginning, somewhere. "

The beginning is with Josh and it started 14(?) years ago and it might not have happened to all the girls in the family, but the ones who it did happen to, where chosen for a reason. I don't believe there is an end to his story. IMO, given the frequency of his urges, even if it means it's just "in his mind", it'll always be there. I'm thinking his parents think so too, otherwise why the conditioning/rules. I note as well that Michelle D. is hyper sensitive about side-way hugging. (TLC commercial.) No frontal, side hug only.

I feel sorry for the family in that the system betrayed them. Whoever betrayed their lawful position and the Duggar's trust needs to be held accountable. As for "InTouch"they should be held accountable as well for perpetuating the abuse. Especially if the victims are still minors. Big time.

tania cadogan said...

Off Topic

PULASKI, Va. – A Virginia woman whose 5-year-old son was found dead in a septic tank has been charged with felony murder.

Pulaski County Sheriff Jim Davis confirmed Wednesday that Ashley White faces the charge in connection with the March death of Noah Terry Thomas. New River Valley Regional Jail records show that White appeared before a magistrate Wednesday and is being held without bond. Neither Davis nor the records revealed any details.

The new charge was first reported by the Roanoke Times.

White and the child's father, Paul Thomas, already were facing felony child abuse and neglect charges. Paul Thomas also is being held without bond.

The child's March 22 disappearance prompted a nationwide search involving local and federal authorities. He was found in a septic tank on his parents' rental property March 26.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/mother-5-year-old-boy-whose-body-was-found-in-septic-tank-charged-with-felony/


About time too

Anonymous said...

Our children poured out their hearts. They shared everything. And then to have their trust betrayed? And for all of their information and everything they share to be turned over to..."

"they didn't even understand or know that anything had happened until after the fact..."


They shared everything...they knew nothing...which is it?

Anonymous said...

Said Nic @5:55 p.m.,

"The beginning is with Josh and it started 14(?) years ago and it might not have happened to all the girls in the family....."

I have seen photos of the family taken during that time frame and there were only five girls Nic. The rest of the children at that time, of varying ages older and younger, were boys.

I agree with Boggled and TrustmeIget it. Sara too, and others. Also, thank you Peter, for your response to me at 12:41 today. I get it now. I understand. Thank you.

As I outlined in my earlier post @ 10.56 this morning, I believe there is more to this story than we know. Josh went voluntarily to the State Police to turn himself in when his molestations had stopped back in 2003? I am not buying this, there had to be more for Jim Bob to think he had no other way to stop Josh, having previously done all he could; otherwise, why make the report after it's over?

To further qualify my suspicions, I have wondered all along if it was Josh who initially made the first confession to Jim Bob of his own volition or why he would. All on his own? With no provocation from someone he had molested, no prior altercation, just guilt on his part? I do not necessarily believe this. IMO, if he'd had such a nagging conscience, he wouldn't have done it in the first place and certainly not continuously, and not just on top of their clothes.

While it is true that the victims had their privacy violated in the release of what was supposedly sealed records; how else would Oprah and her producers have learned of the police report that was made back in 2006 when Josh was 18 and considered an adult by this time? I think they did have the right to know prior to allowing the Duggers on Oprah's show, and I also think that Josh's pedophilia record should have been exposed at that time, especially since he was still living in the home with his victims.

Now the Duggers blame the media for their misfortune when it is JOSH who is to be blamed for the humiliating sorrow that has been brought down on them all. The little b'stard pedophile has destroyed the livelihood of his entire family and not just the re-victimization of his sisters.

Jen Ow said...

I was just about to post the same update about Noah Thomas, Hobs...and I agree, it's about time! They keep cautioning about "rumors", but everyone knows the worst is yet to come, when the toxicology report is released. (Which I don't expect to happen until the trial.)

The extended family is still maintaining a steady campaign of misinformation.

----------

I have plenty to say about the Duggar's too, but I'm in the middle of painting, removing wall paper, and patching nail holes.

Anyone who wants to help speak up! ;-)

trustmeigetit said...

So how did this get leaked? I've heard about a note in a book and the Duggars seem to act like it was the law that did it.

If this is all over a note in s book then the records are still sealed and nothing has been illegally released.

Just not sure which is the case.

And if this really is from the note, that was likely from a victim so that also changes the reality.

That means one of the victims is responsible for the publicity it is a very different situation.

Anonymous said...

Sara, I am so sorry for what your son and you have been through regarding the molestations/rapes of your son. This is a painful crime that he (and you too,) will no doubt suffer for it's lingering affects for the rest of his life. You did the right thing (and the only thing) you could do in getting this evil ex-family out of your lives; I just wish you God speed in keeping them out.

My son at eight, was molested by his out-of-state cousin, my nephew at aged 15, while staying in our home that one school year. I had no idea as he didn't tell me until the night of his 25th birthday when he pathetically rocked and cried hysterically all night long, while I held him. It was too late to do anything about it at this point, other than I told the rest of the family so they could keep their children and other nieces and nephews away from him; WHICH, none of them believed me. Did they? NO, they did not.

My son passed on of a massive heart attack on 9/20/14, at 41, having never gotten over what his cousin did to him when he was eight years old; even so, I never learned what he actually did as my son was so ashamed that he would not go into detail and I didn't want to press him; nor would he go to counseling for help, nor could I force him as he was 25 yrs old by this time. I just wish we'd known earlier; I would have prosecuted my nephew and taken my boy to counseling.

A 14-15 year old is just an underage wayward juvenile at this point in their lives, just making immature boyish mistakes? Like HELL they are! They know exactly what they are doing. They forever destroy the innocence of our precious children!!

My heart goes out to you and your son, Sara. God bless you, you did the only thing you could hon....

Jen Ow said...

I know that a lot has been made of the document release, and I think I even read that a Judge stated that the documents SHOULD HAVE been sealed. But they weren't, and here's why:

The document release was legit under state law, which allows from the documents to be released as long as the names, pronouns, and any identifying information is redacted. I don't agree with subjecting the victim's to the public scrutiny, and reopening the wounds, etc. It was definitely in poor taste. But the reality is, nobody would be able to take that redacted document and identify the victims, or even the perpetrator, if the family wasn't the subject of a reality show which has well publicized their birth order, ages, etc.

I've seen a lot of people, including the Duggars, using the word "leaked" in reference to the documents. The documents weren't "leaked", they were RELEASED in response to a media outlet's FOIA request. This wasn't some kind of backroom deal. The legally documented request was made by In Touch Magazine, the request was reviewed by the State's Attorney, who approved the documents for release, (bearing the proper redactions in accordance with the law). The Duggar's were even notified by the State's Attorney office that the documents were being released.

The Duggar's were not "blindsided" as they have stated. As a matter of fact, the first statements given by the Duggar's, (the original statements by Josh's, his wife, and the parent's) ran along side the original 'In Touch' article, containing the documents. The Duggar's are being disingenuous when they repeatedly state that the docs were "leaked", or "illegally released". They knew the docs were legally obtained, and set for publication, and they PARTICIPATED in the original publication of the documents, in an effort to get their side of the story out first, and soften the backlash.

While I agree it was immoral, and unkind to the victims to seek the documents for publishing, the State's Attorney didn't have a choice in the matter, due to the way the law is written, and the status of the documents when the request was made. These were NOT 'sealed' records.

While juvenile court/case records, are indeed 'sealed', and therefore exempt from FOIA requests...these documents were NOT part of a Juvenile case record. Josh was never charged with a crime as a juvenile, (which would have sealed the record). Also, the official police report in question was not filed until 2006, when Josh was already 18. This resulted in the police report being filed as a public record, (the same as any other police report, which the public has a right to access.)

Jen Ow said...

The interviews dealt with activities that took place as a juvenile, and if Josh had actually been charged, then Josh's attorney would have sought to have him tried as a juvenile, and the case sealed. However, that didn't happen, as the 3 year SOL had run on the crimes from 2002-2003.

This report wasn't a sealed record, and it could have been accessed at any time. (*It also could have likely been 'sealed' at any time prior to it's release, if the family/victims, etc, had filed a motion to do so, and convinced a Judge to grant it.)

Ironically, if Josh and his parents had done the right thing, and reported this whe bit happened, as a juvenile...the record would have been sealed, and they would not be facing this right now.

--------

The letter that you referred to was written by someone in the home, and placed in a book. The book was later loaned out, and the letter was discovered. The person who discovered the letter shared it with someone, and apparently they wrote an email to the Oprah Winfrey Show. The email, (which appears in the police report) was received by Oprah's staff while the family was in Chicago to appear on the show. The show's representatives then turned the email over to the authorities, sparking the 2006 investigation. The Duggar's had NO intention of this ever coming to light, and being properly investigated. They claim to have taken Josh to 'confess', to LE, but in reality, they took him to "talk to" a family friend who did not file any official reports, or do anything to protect the victims. (Surprise, he is a twice convicted child pornographer, what a 'coincidence', right?!)

Bottom line, much of the outrage against the family is that the parents don't seem to think they did anything wrong. Their interviews, and statements have focused on trying to justify their actions, and trying to persuade the public that they handled the situation correctly. Sorry, but they DIDN'T get this right! Their actions led to further abuse. They are intentionally mincing words about Josh's so called 'treatment', (which they outright lied about, along with many other things, according to their own words in the 2006 police report.)

I encourage everyone to read the entire police report for themselves, and compare their interviews in 2006, to the story they are peddling now.

They are being insultingly deceptive, considering they know the documents are available for comparison!

http://m.imgur.com/a/zqPMi#

Jen Ow said...

Sorry trustme, I know some of this went off topic from your comment, but I was rushing to write before my timer went off, lol

Anonymous said...

TrustmeIgetit: That letter that was slipped out of the Dugger home in a book that was loaned to a friend is of vital importance. WHEN was it snuck out, by whom, who wrote it and whose hands did it land up in? Was it THIS person who made (in all likelihood) a call to the State Police or went there in person, to report Josh's sexual abuses that had been ongoing in the home?

Is THIS when JimBob was compelled to take Josh into the police station to report his sexual abuses that had "already stopped three to four years earlier"?

To the person who actually wrote the letter, it was of great importance that SOMEONE do something about this! So much so, that they had to quietly sneak out a plea for help. Oh yeah, there is more here than the public has been made privy too.

The police officer taking the report, OR whoever had been advised of the anonymous letter, did not have the right to stop an investigation, doing nothing, thereby LEAVING the child(?) in the circumstances who snuck out the anonymous letter.

Charges and prosecution against Josh should have been filed the very day the first complaint was received in the police station, with the children being removed from the home until such time as action was taken and the matter was resolved.

Wendy said...

Peter,
Here are some of the redacted police reports regarding the Duggars':

http://imgur.com/a/zqPMi#10

I believe there is a lot more that the family is hiding, we already know they tried minimizing the events. I think Josh Duggar was abused when he was younger. The parents haven't mentioned any incidents that may have happened when Josh was younger or if there was any inappropriate contact with someone in the extended family, church members, friends, etc.

Anonymous said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/08/amanda-baird-dead-beaten-birthday_n_7534694.html?cps=gravity_2246_-4391931375450681181

here's an article about young woman murdred in front of her daughter. no suspects yet, what peeked my interest was step father's statement he was first to discover - says baby opened door for him - but ALSO that baby was dropped over her mother say "my mom's dead my mommy's dead"

i mean -- that just sounds super implausible. a) that baby would take time to come open door and then return to drape over her mom and continue crying. any adult who opens that door and sees situation would pick up child immediately. also - i just really don't think the kid would "know" her mom was dead/ so much more likely she would insist somebody wake her mom up. I just see nacu drew clues all over the place that step father is not being truthful. what do you guys think?

Jen Ow said...

Hi Anon 8:43,

The police report details the letter, and the email that brought about the investigation.

The abuse took place in 2002-2003. The email which sparked the investigation wasn't sent until 12-7-2006, to the Oprah Winfrey show, (who faxed it to the Arkansas DHS on the same day.)The email is included in the police report.

http://m.imgur.com/a/zqPMi#

The hotline also received a call reporting the abuse, (presumably from the same person who wrote the email, on the same day the fax was received, 12-7-2006. (*Michelle later confirms in her interview that the person who called the hotline, is the same person who found the letter in the book, although she refuses to identify the person who wrote the letter, or the person who found it.)

The person who called into the hotline reported that an undisclosed person wrote the letter "3 and a half years ago" detailing their knowledge that Josh was "sexually assaulting", his female siblings. They go on to say that the letter was placed in a book, which was later loaned to a church member. They state that Jim Bob and Michelle will not disclose the author of the letter, and that they are not willing to disclose the abuse "unless someone finds out". They say that upon learning of the abuse, they asked Jim Bob and Michelle what happened, and they proceeded to tell them about it with one of the victims sitting right there, saying that Josh had admitted to "fondling" the girls "breasts and vaginas". They say that Jim Bob told them that he reported the abuse to a State Trooper that he knew, but no report was ever filed. They end by saying that they are concerned that the abuse was never investigated, and that Josh never received proper counseling.

Jim Bob states in his interview that he took Josh to "talk to" the State Trooper (who would later be twice convicted of child pornography) after Josh returned from his "program" in July of 2003.

The officers assigned to investigate in 2006 appear to have begun their investigation the day the 'tips' were recieved, but the statute of limitations of 3 years had lapsed for the crimes committed in 2002-2003, so there was nothing they could do besides interview the victims, and document the abuse. Josh DID NOT cooperate with the investigation, as the Duggar's have stated. Jim Bob refused to bring him in for an interview, and attempted to hire representation for him. The report details that 2 different attorneys declined to represent Josh, with both attorneys calling investigators to make it clear they were not the attorney of record for Josh.

The hotline caller doesn't make it clear when it was that they found the letter, or how long they knew of the abuse before calling it in, but since they state that the letter was written "3 and a half years ago", they likely found it around the same time they reported it.

IMO, the Duggar's are solely to blame for the fact that Josh never faced punishment for what he did, and that was their intention. Of course Officer Kiddie Porn played his own part in Josh escaping justice, but that was part of the Duggar's plan. (There is no way that was a coincidence!)

MemphisPat said...

So much outright lying going on with the Duggars and scary that the outside "treatment center" they used was the Little Rock headquarters of Bill Gothard, accused of sexually harassing 34 women and sexually assaulting 4 in that "ministry". The "police" they took Josh to was limited to a state trooper who was a personal friend and had led workshops with JB. This lowlife is in prison for child pornography with a focus on 2-3 year old and 12-13 year old girls. He was paroled once and re-offended.
The Kelly interview on Fox was poorly done with obviously pre-agreed-upon questions and no exploration of comments that demanded more. Since the Duggars weren't running a library, someone in that house wrote the letter and smuggled it to someone they counted on to tell, perhaps someone working on the show? Why was this little tidbit avoided?
I've tried to remain objective since my daughter and nieces were molested by my mother's husband. Mother did not know she was his 8th wife. I wonder how many little girls were molested by him and what might have been avoided if someone had prosecuted him early on. Our girls didn't tell on him until after his death which blows my mind. I wonder what secrets the Duggars girls are holding onto because of threats from Josh and/or the parents.
As a Christian, I don't relish the ridicule this case has brought upon the church, but these people are hiding big things and they must be investigated. There are vulnerable kids still in the home (and more to come, I'm guessing!)

Anonymous said...

Any simple Google news search will reveal that MANY reputable and knowledgeable sources say the police reports were not "leaked" but relinquished legally and mandatorily under the FOIA.

Yes, this represents a second victimization for the girls. But whose fault is that? Maybe the parents who chose to take their family show on the TLC road, knowing this was in their past, trying to portray themselves as one big wholesome family far superior to families who don't look exactly like theirs. Just a thought.

Chickens do come home to roost.

Sara said...

Anon @7:45
Thank you for your kind words and your support, and sharing your son's experience.
I am very sorry for what happened to your son, too. What a tragic loss for him to have died so young. Gosh, it hasn't even been a year yet. Even though I do not know you, I will be thinking of you and him on Sept. 20.

trustmeigetit said...

Thanks Jen. Helpful.

Clearly more to these people that we still no of they are continuing to lie.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Jen Ow for all you posted. If you hadn't already I would have because this family is not being truthful.

(I only scanned quickly through the comments so if this has been posted already, please forgive me. . .)

The Duggar's want the public to believe that Josh is the one who told them what he was doing. Not so according to the police report. At least one of the victims was the one who told them what he was doing. This is even more a betrayal of these girls. Their own parents wish to cover for their son more than support their daughter's by being honest.

Josh's behavior was uncontrolled and progressing. I fear the message they have given him. I hope his wife is guarding their children!!



tania cadogan said...

"We've had arguments before or whatever. We've been together nine years. There's been two or three times in our nine years where she went away for the weekend to her mom's, but I know she didn't walk away from us is what I know. I think someone took her. I know that she wouldn't leave"

This is an interesting statement from the husband.
He tells us they have had arguments, not unexpected in any relationship, the whatever is concerning though.
As well as arguments, what else occurred?
Is he talking about it becoming physical?
It would explain the whatever on top of the arguments, something he isn't wanting to mention as it would draw interest from LE.

where she went away for the weekend to her mom's
Two or three times she went o her moms for the weekend over 9 years?
This sounds like a huge argument/fight and she left him to stay at her mom's till things calmed down/ he begged her to come back.
Note the weekends away come immediately after they had arguments or whatever.
This is what a victim of DV would do, get away from the abuser but always returning to start the cycle again

I know she didn't walk away from us is what I know. I think someone took her. I know that she wouldn't leave ,"
I know is repeated twice here making it sensitive.
Given the arguments or whatever and that she stayed at her mother's for two or three weekends, how can he know she didn't walk away from us?
Note the I know brackets the walking away which makes the walking away sensitive.
If he knows she didn't walk away then he knows what happened to her, otherwise it would be i think or i believe which allows for somehing else to have happened.
To know something is to make a statement of fact, even if the actual fact is later proved wrong.
He knows she didn't walk away, he thinks though someone took her which allows for others to think otherwise.

I know that she wouldn't leave"
We have the third appearance of I know making his knowledge sensitive.
Given he admits to arguments or whatever, and the fact he admits she went to her mothers two or three times for weekends, Is his 'knowledge' she wouldn't leave based on her fear of what would/could happen?
Is it based on the fact that when she has left she has always come back?
Is it based on them having two children which he is the bio father of?

When she stayed at her mother's did she take the children with her i wonder?
Did she return to him because he had the children, a powerful hold over parent.


I would be checking the laundry for evidence of bloodstain, i would be checking the apartment for bloodstains and cadaverine.

How better to explain away a disappearance than say she was doing laundry and vanished?
It would explain away anything incriminating.
I would be interested to hear if there are any items missing from the house, perhaps a sheet/blanket/towels etc.

I would be interested to hear if he has a criminal history, whether they sought counseling, if there are records of visits by LE for DV calls.
Have the neighbors seen or heard anything unusual, have they heard the arguments?

Has he been asked to take a poly?
If so has he cooperated or refused?
Did he pass, fail or inconclusive?
Has he hired an attorney?

John mcgowan said...

A couple of things i have picked our from my OT:

Portsmouth mother missing for nearly 2 weeks

"She started washing the clothes in the laundry facility in the building.

"Started" doesn't mean completed.

"Washing" "Laundry" When "water", in any form, enters a statement, the analyst should be on alert for the possibility of sexual abuse.

"A little while later I woke up with her complaining saying the dryer's not working, and she had to go to the building right here"

Here we have a jump in time (tempora lacunae) Missing information.

"I woke up"

Possible alibi building?

"I woke up with her complaining saying the dryer's not working"

Subtle demeaning.

"All the lights were on, the TV's on and she's not in the house."

Lights are often related to sexual activity, but with lights going "off", it is often associated with failed sexual activity.

"I walked out to our laundry and then that other laundry room and she wasn't there."

"and then that other laundry room"

Skip in time.

"That" distant. did something happen in "that" laundry room?

"I walked out" Body posture can be associated with an increase in tension?

"our laundry room"

Note not "the laundry room"

By saying "our" laundry room, he shows the need to share, and is a signal that the relationship maybe in a bad place.

"Til 2:30 in the morning or whatever, I was walking around yelling her name. I came home and the next day I called the police," he said.

"Til 2:30 in the morning or whatever"

This sounds to casual and gives a sense that he doesn't care.

"I was walking around" Body posture.

"I came home and the next day I called the police," he said.

Here we have a major jump in time. Missing information.

""We've had arguments before or whatever."

Again he sounds casual.

"or whatever."

This to me sounds as if he wants to Shrug it off and stop the flow of information.

"There's been two or three times in our nine years where she went away for the weekend to her mom's, but I know she didn't walk away from us is what I know. I think someone took her. I know that she wouldn't leave ," he said.

"I know she didn't walk away from us is what I know.

How does he know? If "she didn't walk away" was she taken, carried or removed in some way?

"I think someone took her."

Leaving others to "think" otherwise and for him to change is statement later if questioned.

The skips in time and the subtle demeaning are red flags for me. I would question him about his story.

http://www.13newsnow.com/story/news/local/mycity/portsmouth/2015/06/09/portsmouth-mother-missing-for-nearly-2-weeks/28733137/

Anonymous said...

Okay. I'm still a little befuddled as to how JimBob Dugger (with or without Josh), came about going to the police to report Josh's molestations, and WHEN.

For one thing, the visit to the police dept had already been made by JimBob PRIOR to the call that was made by Oprah's producers in 2006, otherwise there wouldn't have been a record of it when Oprah's group inquired; AFTER they received the email advising them of the molestations and the report that had been filed with the police.

Secondly, if the incidents of molestation by Josh had already stopped by the time JimBob went to the police dept, (which, according to him, they had); why did he go? What was the point at this late date? It wouldn't have made any sense for him to voluntarily report Josh's activities AFTER his 'touching' behavior had already ceased, particularly considering that he had no legal obligation to do so IF Josh was still under the age of 18; so what compelled him to do it?

Not much has been said about their church involvement. At some point JimBob stated that he had discussed the matter with his church group seeking their wisdom and guidance in what to do about Josh. Was it someone in the church group who recommended the out of state so-called work/rehab center program Josh was sent too? Did church officials have some responsibility in their failure to notify the police and make a report or to call the DCF to report Josh's molestations, or did they?

Talking to your church group is not the same as confessing something in confidence to your priest who is duty bound to a vow of silence. A church group has no such vow as a whole. Was it at this point that Josh & Michelle pulled out of their church and started their own in-home bible study group? Did they withdraw from their church entirely during the messy incest Josh affair and was this the cause of it, or did this come later, and why did they?

It doesn't seem to me that they tried so hard to keep what Josh had been doing under wraps and entirely secretive since they did go to their church group for advice, anyone of who could have blown the whistle publically on Josh at any time.

Lastly, do you all think Michelle & JimBob are outright lying as much as they are being evasive? You know, it IS possible that Josh only ever confessed to his parents that all he did was 'touchy-feely' of the girls and they believed him, and if the girls backed him up on this they would have believed him all the more. We don't believe him, (or them either entirely), at least I certainly don't, but we can't just arbitrarily conclude that JimBob & Michelle are outright lying in this assertion, can we?

Good heavens, common sense would dictate to anyone who has more than half an ounce, that a teenage boy who continues to sneak around touching little girls, and who has admitted to at least fifteen times, is there for a lot more than just touchy feely (grooming?) of their private parts; but is it possible that JimBob & Michelle are a little short on the beam on their front porch light; not so much lying as dense, then compelled to become evasive rather than admit to their stupidity?

Point in fact: It WAS rather stupid of them to allow Josh to remain in the home around their little girls after the FIRST time he admitted to molesting them. Another point in fact: It WAS rather stupid of JimBob to run down and make a report to the police dept, turning in his own underage kid, when he didn't have too.... Duh. Or did he have no other choice?

Anonymous said...

Re your comment @ 5:14 a.m. Anon; I wouldn't count on it. Josh Dugger's little wifey talks and appears to be rather stupid herself. 1) She believes him. 2) She is expecting baby #4 at HER AGE? Yep. Dumb as a box a rocks.

Set her aside separate from Josh and take a look at her: One little girl, on the heels of this one, two little boys and now expecting another baby girl in a matter of weeks AT HER AGE. She is subservient; she has no formal education; she has no career of her own; she would be unable to make a living to support herself or them should she find herself in a position of having too. And she just might!

Besides all that, she is NOT a pretty woman, in fact, she's rather ugly sitting plopped down with no poise and no class. Not meaning to sound catty, but pray tell, just WHAT does she have that she could draw from? Not very much. Actually, nothing.

Anonymous said...

You have a very deep understanding Peter, of how sexual abuse victims' families suffer in desperation throughout their life time due to the sexual abuse of their loved ones. I have had to live with and emotionally deal with two members of my immediate family who were sexually abused as children; one eight year old son and one toddler granddaughter.

It is a daily on-going struggle for us for years, in every way imaginable; with no help, no thanks (the least of it), or any way to resolve their deep emotional problems no matter how hard, learned, and diligently we try, and with no way out for us. Ever. It does not end. There is no way out for them and no way out for us. Thank you for understanding.

John mcgowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John mcgowan said...

Update on my OT:

Body found near missing woman’s Portsmouth apartment

PORTSMOUTH, Va. (WAVY) — Police confirm they are investigating a suspicious death, after a body was found near the apartment complex of a missing Portsmouth woman.

Detective Misty Holley, with Portsmouth police, said officers were called to Tejo Lane, near Silver Maple Drive, around 11 p.m. Tuesday. This was after police received a report of a bad smell near the Churchland Forest apartment complex.

When officers arrived, they discovered a body in a wooded area. Detectives spent hours combing though the forest, searching for clues, but right now, investigators cannot confirm the gender of the body, because it is so severely decomposed.

Police have also not confirmed if the body is related to the disappearance of 32-year-old Kathleen “Katie” Barham, who was last seen May 27 around 10:30 p.m.

Det. Holley did say the Barham family was notified of the death investigation, due to the proximity of where the body was found. The location is about a half-mile from Barham’s apartment in the Preston Trails complex. That’s where Barham’s fianc√© said he last saw her, as she went to the communal laundry room to wash clothes.

“I’m hoping for the best, but in my heart, I’m feeling the worst,” said Barham’s fianc√©, Rich Fegan. “It’s crushing. All your hopes go right out.”

Fegan got engaged to the mother of his two small children three months ago.

“I’m realistic enough to know that this is 300 yards away from my door, and that they found a body,” Fegan said.

The body was discovered in a wooded area one apartment complex over from Barham’s. It was nestled along a path 65 feet from the road.

“Impatience,” family friend Robert Poisal said. “You want to know one way or another. We would be ecstatic, even if she were still missing. We would be ecstatic if that wasn’t her body.”

http://wavy.com/2015/06/10/death-investigation-near-portsmouth-missing-womans-apartment/

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous said...
You have a very deep understanding Peter, of how sexual abuse victims' families suffer in desperation throughout their life time due to the sexual abuse of their loved ones. I have had to live with and emotionally deal with two members of my immediate family who were sexually abused as children; one eight year old son and one toddler granddaughter.

It is a daily on-going struggle for us for years, in every way imaginable; with no help, no thanks (the least of it), or any way to resolve their deep emotional problems no matter how hard, learned, and diligently we try, and with no way out for us. Ever. It does not end. There is no way out for them and no way out for us. Thank you for understanding.
June 11, 2015 at 10:24 AM

One day, I will write about it.

I encourage you to do the same. Keep writing. It works. It causes the brain to process the unspeakable trauma you've experienced and can 'dull' the pain. In spite of false promises, you'll never be whole in this life, but you can find substantial healing along the way.

I will, perhaps soon, address what I mean by "unspeakable." It is not hyperbole.

God be with you,

Peter

Red Meat said...

"you'll never be whole in this life,"

I respectfully disagree.

Jen Ow said...

Hi Anon 7:39,

According to Jim Bob's police interviews, he took Josh to "talk to" the State Trooper after he returned from his 'program' in 2003. No report was ever filed.

The parents are sadly, outright lying. Their current narrative is contradicted by their own words in the 2006 police report. In his police interviews, Jim Bob lied, stating the place Josh was sent to was a "Christian Training Program", consisting of "hard physical labor, and christian counseling". He tells investigators that he 'can't remember the name of the program, but it was affiliated with the police department, and it was in the same building'.

However, in a subsequent interview with investigators, Michelle admits that it was NOT a program, the man running it was NOT a certified counselor, nor a therapist, and in reality he was "kind of a mentor", who Josh was sent to help with a remodeling project. She directly refuted everything Jim Bob had said, yet she is back to telling the same story today, which she already admitted was a lie years ago.

In the report, Jim Bob doesn't state why he took Josh to the Trooper to report the abuse, other than saying he and the church elders, 'agreed', that it needed to be reported. (Possibly because church officials are considered mandatory reporters in Arkansas, and once informed of the abuse, they didn't want to be in legal limbo?)

My opinion is that along with the pressure from his church, Jim Bob also thought it would deter anyone else who knew of the abuse, (church elders, extended family, etc) from reporting it, and 'cover' them in case someone did. Jim Bob was running for office, and involved in politics, so something like this could be turned into blackmail, or revealed during a campaign. What better way to deter others from reporting the abuse, than to 'take away their power' and report it yourself? (Of course, that only works if you are able to control who takes the report, and where things go from there, and Jim Bob was able to do just that by choosing an officer with a similar predilection.)

Slow Turtle said...

It's tempting for people to say that it's "normal" for parents not to want to turn over one of their kids to the justice system. But I question this. I know a parent who loves both her kids fiercely... but when her son molested her daughter, she turned him in. She felt she had no choice and that anything else would be a failure to respect and protect her daughter, and a failure to get her son the treatment, rehabilitation, and monitoring he needed. It's hard to seek treatment without reporting it - most people who work with kids are mandatory reporters - so the decision not to report is also a decision not to treat, in most cases.

So, don't be too ready to say that the Duggars did what any parent would do.

Jen Ow said...

I know I'm repeating myself, but everyone who wants to know how ugly, and deceptive this case really is, needs to read to police report. It's a long and labored read, due to all of the redactions, but it's crucial to understand the depth of their deception.

http://m.imgur.com/a/zqPMi#

Some of the major points of deception:

-The Duggar's are lying about the 'treatment/training camp. JB told a more detailed lie in the police interview, and Michelle later admitted the truth, refuting his story. Yet they are BOTH telling the same lie to the public now.

-All of the victims were NOT asleep when the abuse took place. When interviewed by the officers, the older victims tell minimizing, robotic, and nearly identical accounts, where they state that they were sleeping, and they didn't even know what happened, or, "halfway sleeping" and "don't remember anything". But, as the victims get younger they share more details, and they are disturbing. There were incidents where the youngest victims were wide awake, engaging in daily activities.

-All of the touching was NOT over the clothes. The youngest victim (age 5) details her clothes being removed, (including the pants she wore under her dress being pulled down) and Josh touching her 'skin to skin'. She also details Josh using a hole in her skirt to touch her while others were in the room!

-Because of the redactions, it is hard to decipher who reported the abuse to the parents initially, but it reads as though one of the victims did. The parent's claim he 'admitted' the abuse to them, but you can 'admit' to something when confronted about it. I feel they are using this word in a disingenuous manner to suggest Josh was the one who informed them of his actions.

There is much more, but it's hard to detail without being able to post excerpts from the report. I have tried both c&p, as well as image sharing, but had no luck transferring the document text to include in comments here. I would LOVE to see analysis done on their police interviews, so I may just have to transcribe it from the copy. If anyone has any suggestions for sharing imgur docs here, please share!

Anonymous said...

Thank you Peter, God HAS been with me all along the way and still is. Prayer, and the knowledge that Jesus truly was/is with me, and us, was the only comfort I ever had or ever found.

But, my two abused ones would not accept that this would be the answer for their peace and comfort too. All I could do was pray them. It seemed too simple minded for them to believe me that God would help them if only they'd ask, so they refused; they could only feel anger and more anger about anything and everything. Many times I didn't even know what they were angry about, especially my son. It only got worse; that, coupled with his congestive heart failure and a massive heart attack finally killed him at only forty-one.

My granddaughter went into a shell of manipulative pathological lying by the time she turned eleven; only twelve when we lost her dad suddenly. That very day she became unmanageable. Now, at thirteen, she is totally engrossed in her defensive and never-ending views on bi-sexuality, homosexuality, trans sexuality and every other sexuality she can think of. It is not healthy, is really sad, AND sick.

I fear terribly for her future, all wasted as she's on a downward spiral even now; a future that I will not be able to deal with. As brilliant as she is, I see only dark days ahead for her. It all makes me so sad and defeated.

Thank you for your kindness and your encouragement; it's been a hard road to travel. Very hard.

Anonymous said...

Red Meat @12:51; Peter was right about this. There is no way I can ever be made whole again in this lifetime; too much and too many years have been lost. I will never be able to remove the many years I've suffered and struggled so hard for my son having been molested; then his baby toddler daughter having been violently raped, injured and left mentally scared and shattered on top of it; with me alone having to deal with all of it, now her going in an awful direction because of it and me trying to put my grief into perspective over losing my beautiful son whom I loved so dearly. No Red Meat, not in this life time. It isn't possible.

I'm just blessed in that I know there IS a better life waiting. This is my hope and this is what I look forward too. So yes, based on this, there IS a better life to come, it just isn't in the here and now. God bless.

Peter Hyatt said...

Red Meat,

Please don't let my viewpoint influence you on this one. If you believe otherwise, it is all the better for you.

I hesitate to say it because it can diminish hope for some, while for most, it lowers expectations and allows them to live happy lives, even as they struggle.

I fear that the "healing" claim is too often used to sell hours, books, etc. I have well lost count of the number of victims I have interviewed, and from those very close to me, personally.

If you feel that you have experienced otherwise, please don't wrestle with my point of view. Yet, if something should impact you where you feel less than 100%, please know it is to be expected.

There is a religious view I don't readily share but perhaps it is worth noting here. I do not take away from anyone else's personal experience in religion but have found that this teaching has actually helped many people who have struggled in this realm.

More than a few have sought help from religion only to be left cynical and broken, and sometimes even more guilt ridden. Yet it is that within faith, I find truth, and I find comfort.

Deception or false promises do not help. It brings in crowds, and it builds anticipation and just the hope, itself, can have short term benefits, but when the "miracle" (suspension of nature) is gone, someone must be there to pick up the pieces.

Here it is:

There is no release from the pressure, tension, and conflict in this world, promised, or exampled, in Scripture.

If someone has received forgiveness and has forgiven the offender, it is likely that they will find much peace from what they have suffered, yet it is that even the memory of such, leaves scars and even those who have gone many years free from symptoms, have stated that a certain scent, for example, triggered terrible memories.

I once was at a restaurant with family and friends when one of the adults in our company stopped at the door as we were leaving, clutched her chest, and stood still. She appeared to be staring at someone. She quietly said to my wife, "I am having terrible vaginal pain."

A few minutes later, she felt feverish to the touch. Her body was reacting to what I perceived as the presence of a man I recognized.

I asked her, "Were you staring at that man?"

She said she was.

He was a foster parent who had molested children.

Her bodily reaction was real, and I felt her head; she spiked a fever, almost instantly.

We talked privately for a few minutes as she processed this terrible information. A half hour later, it was as if nothing had happened; she was fine, and our night continued in an upbeat manner.

It is a terrible thing and those who use false and unrealistic expectations , whether in social services or religion, are not doing anyone any favors.

If you have experienced otherwise, I am glad for you. For the rest, being prepared to deal with the curve balls they may face seems to have better results than believing in full healing or "cure" of childhood sexual abuse.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

To some of the others:

When a person who abuses is, for example, a religious leader, or a therapist, it brings even greater consequence because the victim may not trust therapists or pastors because of it.

There is the expectation of trust and when broken, it has consequence. I deal with this in an upcoming article, including what happens when a biological father molests his own daughter, as well as when trusted professionals break this sacred trust.

Peter

Red Meat said...

Peter- it's likely more a word choice I disagree with than the principle of what you're saying. I'd agree that many will not fully heal, but to say that somehow makes them not "whole" I disagree with; they may not even feel "whole" but that's a feeling, and not a value statement about their worth, which is what I'm hearing with the words "you'll never *be* whole."

Anonymous said...

Peter & Red Meat; Peter is not saying that none that have ever been abused will ever be made whole. I suppose they could be to some extent, but only to an extent. I have witnessed and lived what the emotional life is like for children who have been sexually abused; and I have lived my own life in utter turmoil because of their pain on a daily, hourly, weekly and yearly basis. Year after year while I alone held on for all of us.

If you have not been sexually abused as a child or have not had to live with your own child or grandchild who has been; then you are blessed but you also do not realize that a part of them is gone, and a part of me is gone; and when a part is gone that person is not whole. If you cut off your foot it is gone and you no longer have a whole body. Same dif, only worse, whereas your foot can be replaced, your emotions/brain cells cannot as it is your emotions and feelings that have been damaged so badly that they are beyond repair, the emotionally stable ones have been taken away from you and replaced by some that you should have never had considering that you were not born with these tormented emotionally damaged feelings.

As a mother who suffered for more than 30 years with my sons' upset, tormented and angry emotions, yet watching him struggle so hard trying to think and live a normal life; on nearly a daily basis while trying my best to deal with his unprovoked rages and bad decisions, and not even knowing what caused them until the night of his 25th birthday when he told me about being molested by his cousin when he was eight, I never had the slightest idea what his real problem might be related too, only concluding that he must have a mental block of some kind, or needed counseling for behavior modification (tried that, didn't work), or perhaps he just hated me; yet he was brilliant, well educated, had many friends and deeply loved me on a clear day; but for me I saw the real person he was, utterly tormented. Now, he is a great loss to my totally broken heart, so much, that I can never stop the pain.

NO, absolutely NOT, I could never be whole again, not in this lifetime. I have forgotten what it was like when I looked at life as a whole person. Living my life every day at the mercy of fragile hurting souls who needed to rely on me, yet were unable to help me hold them up, was like being on the end of a yoyo string, up and down, up and down, never knowing what to expect next.

As for religion, I don't even associate my deep faith in being 'religious' per'se. My faith does not stem from religion or any denomination or any minister or what anyone else says or thinks. I am not nor have I ever been angry with God; in no way do I blame or question God for all that I/we have been through due to the molestations and rapes, or my son's bad heart or his sudden death; as I know that God didn't have anything to do with any of the evil or pain, nor was it His will that these innocent ones be hurt or that we suffered.

My faith comes straight from above and it is a real miracle otherwise I would be so bitter I might have even killed myself; in fact, I am sure I would have a long time ago. But no, God sent to me and held onto my sanity, kept me thinking clearly, and made me strong. I am not an angry or distraught person and am at peace. I KNOW from where my strength cometh and it is not from any mortal human being, nor did I psyche myself into it. I am very blessed indeed. I wish everyone could be so blessed as I am.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Jen Ow, for articulating what set off my spidey senses - "The parent's claim he 'admitted' the abuse to them, but you can 'admit' to something when confronted about it."

That's it. I would expect to see the words "he told us..." I don't expect to see the words "he admitted" unless there were already suspicions or accusations.

There are two possible responses to an accusation: admit or deny. An admission acknowledges the truth of what someone else has stated.

Anonymous said...

M. Duggar speaks of the "safeguards" they placed in their home:

"..we don't let boys baby-sit. They don't play hide and seek together, the two don't go off and hide. There are just a lot of things we've put in place. You're not alone in a room with someone else. Always be out visible, and, you know, little ones don't sit on big boys' laps or people that you don't know or even family members, unless it's your daddy. So we just -- there's boundaries that we've learned --"

These "safeguards," as worded, seem to place the responsibility on the "little ones" to avoid situations in which they might be vulnerable, rather than placing the responsibility on the adults to protect them.

This leads me to wonder if something occurred in mom or dad Duggar's childhood for which they feel they were responsible.

Anonymous said...

Peter Hyatt wrote: I encourage you to do the same. Keep writing. It works. It causes the brain to process the unspeakable trauma you've experienced and can 'dull' the pain. In spite of false promises, you'll never be whole in this life, but you can find substantial healing along the way.

Peter Hyatt also wrote: There is no release from the pressure, tension, and conflict in this world, promised, or exampled, in Scripture.

If someone has received forgiveness and has forgiven the offender, it is likely that they will find much peace from what they have suffered, yet it is that even the memory of such, leaves scars and even those who have gone many years free from symptoms, have stated that a certain scent, for example, triggered terrible memories.

I was molested in the 80's by my adoptive father. I told my mother what was occurring and nothing was done. He stopped touching me because he knew I would tell. In fact he told me "you're no fun, you tell." I then had to finish growing up with him as my disciplinarian and provider.

I have only recently (a year and a half ago) cut off most of my family due to repeated victimization. My mother still to this day refuses to talk about the abuse or her part in it. (she never reported it and expected me to remain silent).

I'm 40 years old now. It was in my mid thirties that I decided I will not remain silent. Silence is what perpetrators want. Even non-offenders like my mother, wish for silence because they do not wish to acknowledge the deep trauma that has occurred or their part in it.

Religion. Years ago I was given a book called "the wounded heart" It is a christian book that gives many, many helpful and truthful perspectives. Sadly, at the crux of the whole book is the authors wish to justify Christianity at the expense of the victim.

"our sinfulness, not how we've been sinned against, is our biggest problem" - Dr. Larry Crabb in a foreword to "the wounded heart"

"The proclivity to turn from God to trust idols is deeply embedded in the human condition from birth. Consequently, the root problem and cure for an abuse victim is essentially no different than for any other sinner."

"Some readers will be appalled by the suggestion that the five year old raped by her father is sinful for concluding that God is untrustworthy. Understand: I do not thing that nay five year old other than the sinless Jesus could be so abused and continue to trust God fully. The abused, wounded, victimized child makes the same choice any child would make in the same situation. I made the same choice, many times over, as a child. But it is a choice colored by sin, and as the child grows to adulthood, that tragic choice will continue to haunt her. Though every human heart is inclined to idolatry (to trust other gods to provide us with life), the abuse victim will struggle more deeply to trust God with her life and relationships." Dr. Dan B. Allender "the wounded heart"

(cont.)

Anonymous said...

(continued)
First off, I feel I must state I left Christianity many years ago. I did not leave God. Yes, I struggled with God for many years. I believe my faith is deeper and more faithful to God now than ever before. I believe that God does put us in places at birth that will facilitate our greatest growth. I do not believe God's plan for me was to be molested. Every individual is responsible for their own actions. I believe God looks at each individual at their level and whether or not they grew in character. God had a plan for my mother and father to grow and they failed and will be judged by God in accordance.

Talking about Child sexual abuse victims as "sinners" because it causes them to question God, is deeply offensive, but it's the reality of those who wish to justify their own particular religious beliefs. Abuse victims do not question God any more than homeless persons, or starving people, or the families of murder victims. The world over has questions on "where is/was God?" Murder, abuse, the list is almost endless.

God is not human, but we as humans tend to bring Him down to our human level. God is so much bigger and awesome than many give Him credit for being. The bible itself tells us that God creates evil. Not satan, God. Without evil we cannot know GOOD! It is our jobs to call out evil and stop it!! If you hide your head in the sand, you are just as evil as the ones actually doing the deed.

In hope for the world,
Amber

Anonymous said...

I should have added that my post is not directed to anyone who posts here. I'm sorry, the Duggar's have "triggered" me in a big way. I saw Peter said writing helps and he's so right! So I just let it pour out.

Amber

Red Meat said...

Amber- Yes!

Very insightful post- I agree that we tend to humanize God and pretend to understand things way more complicated than we can conceptualize. How can we not question that which we cannot fully understand? I also agree that other types of victims ("the list is endless") hold a pain as well that might cause them to question their worth, which is why I took issue with "never be whole."

Thanks for sharing your views. Also, in hope...

Anonymous said...

Thank you Red Meat.

"never be whole" to me seems to imply what I felt for the longest time, that something is "wrong" with me. "Never be whole" seems to imply "less than."

Changed. Abuse changes you. I am whole. I am me. But I am changed.

Anonymous said...

sorry forgot to sign it. 12:37 was me

Amber

Anonymous said...

Amber your post @11:32... "The Bible itself tells us that God creates evil. Not Satan. God." THIS MISLEADING AND PROFOUND STATEMENT IS TO TURN PEOPLE AWAY FROM GOD, NOT towards Him. You fail to comprehend; ALL evil is from satan, NOT GOD.

Your posts are powerful Amber, in which I have great empathy for you. However, you are wrong in your assertion and (mis)interpretation of the Bible wherein you state "God creates evil. Not Satan. God." Oh.My.God. Therein you are blaming God for everything that is wrong on this earth, and leading others to blame God. Who needs a God like that! To tell others that everything on this earth that is wrong is Gods' fault, which in affect is what you are saying, leads others to hate God. Right up satans' alley, the very thing he is striving for, turn them against God.

God is not an evil two-faced conniving freak set about to trick us and cause us pain, which is what your implication belies. You are wrong. This couldn't be further from the truth. There is a powerful satan on this earth, charging about day and night as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may destroy. GOD is not the only powerful being in our universe; He has a strong adversary fighting against Him (and us) day and night.

God looks down on us on this earth in sorrow to see our pain and suffering. We are warned throughout the Bible of satans wrath and evil and were sent a comforter to guide, comfort and help us on our laborious journey through this dark valley of the shadow of death while we are being deceived and torn every which way by Gods' adversary. You have reduced Gods' great love, compassion and mercy on us to nothing, thereby blaming God, just as satan would have us do.

For beginners; go back to The Book and reread it and learn of Gods' great love for us. (You do not torment or heap pain on someone you love, Amber, nor does God!) Then the Book of Job. Many christians misinterpret what they are reading in Job's tribulations. They have been so powerfully taught, and still are, that God allowed satan to do all that he did to Job, but this is NOT the truth of it. Pay attention. Attentively open your eyes and heart searching for the truth and you will comprehend what you are reading and it's impact as opposed to what you always thought was the truth of Jobs' troubles. And that's just one example. God loves us. He is NOT the one who is our enemy, as you are making Him out to be.

Just as you are implying; I have never heard but one minister or christian say anything other than in times of evil, trouble, pain, suffering and sickness; "It is God's will." NO MA'AM IT IS NOT.... There again, blaming God! "I will pray for you." Why bother to pray if it's all God's will? Open your eyes. God does not play games with us Amber. God bless and keep you...xxx

Anonymous said...

Anon at 6:18am

Thank you for your reply. I am not wrong, and your issue isn't with me.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

It is not my wish to debate religion with you.

Amber

charlotte from denmark said...

A 15 year old boy, who are told that all sexuality is sin, that your body is sinful, and who has never even seen a girl in a bikini.

I will not judge him for being curious. I will judge him for touching.

However, I judge his sick parents even more.

The idea that they can not let little girls sit on their brothers lap, or play hide and seek. Just the thought should tell them something is very wrong.

My sons are 15 and 17. They play hide and seek with their little sister (3), and they have her on their lap. Just as our eldest daughter does. This is what normal families do.

John mcgowan said...

Jana Duggar Calls Michelle Her ‘Role Model’ After Police Are Called On The Family

http://www.inquisitr.com/2165205/jana-duggar-calls-michelle-her-role-model-after-police-are-called-on-the-family/

Anonymous said...

Amber, re your response to me @ 7:45, neither do I wish to debate scripture with you; however, I WILL until my last breath stand up for and defend the Almighty God and His Holy Word so long as I am in my right mind and am able to do so.

You rightly quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV); but what you are doing is pulling ONE Scripture out of the entire Bible, running with it and laying all the blame for all the evil on this earth at the feet of Jesus.

This is precisely what most other christians do without knowing or understanding the full context any one particular scripture and its' true meaning. There are many many MANY more scriptures that distinguish and explain this quote in detail; further, they profoundly delineate that it is SATAN who creates the evil on this earth and NOT God. God tempth no man. God is Holy. God can do no evil.

You are saying that it was GOD who caused a little baby girl to get brutally raped five seconds ago; another one to get her eyes gouged out; another one to have boiling water poured over her body; a serial killer to kill his 10th victim alive in a barrel of acid, a husband to beat his wife mercilessly, a deceitful preacher to fleece his flock, and so on and so on.... THIS is what you are leading people to believe.


I know that you mean well. They all do. Know this, it is dangerous to falsely accuse God or to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, or to undermine the perfect love of the righteous savior Jesus who IS without spot or blemish; is in the person of the father, the son & the holy spirit, three in one; or to mislead others. Learn the scriptures. This earth is His footstool.

PLEASE, for your own sake and all those you are misleading in laying evil blame on God, causing them to hate and turn a deaf ear to him; get to the truth of the matter. I promise you, you'll be glad you did. xxx.....

Anonymous said...

Hello again Anon @ 9:28am

So you're saying all those horrible things are satan's fault and not the people who did them? Why do we have prisons? All those poor innocent people are in jail when it's satan who did it, not them! Let them out!

Josh Duggar isn't guilty of molesting his sisters, satan did it!

I said God creates evil in hopes that we will fight it and choose good. I do not believe He creates evil DIRECTLY. As I said I do not believe it was His intention that I be molested, or a little girl be murdered, etc. I believe He gives us the option of good and evil, we are to choose the good. It's called FREE WILL.

I know scripture. I could debate you back and forth for eternity. I don't get the impression you'd be willing to listen and actually ponder anything I say.

Amber

Lis said...

It's the tip of the iceberg.

Anonymous said...

Just curious...what's the significance of the "xxx" at the end of your posts? Does it mean porn or kisses? I've seen xoxo for kisses and hugs, and seen "xxx" at the ends of other posts here. I googled it and it seems to be a British thing but unsure why used. If kisses, it seems kind of snarky in context and hyperbole of what you're saying. But, as I said, I've seen it before and was curious about its use.

just sayin... said...

" Lis said...
It's the tip of the iceberg."

Agreed. It is not uncommon in abusive homes for children to take on the roles/responsibilities of adults. There is a whole lot of that going on in the Duggar family - explained by the sheer need to have elder siblings coparent the massive brood - but still unsettling in the light of abuse allegations.

Anonymous said...

xxx = hugs.
xx00xx = hugs, kisses & hugs.

xx00= hugs & kisses.

Anonymous said...

Satan knows scripture too, Amber. He's right there sitting on the front pew in your church misleading and blindsiding well meaning people with his twisted and 'godly appearing' carefully worded allegations. He's the one robbing the church coffers and lying to the poor widow while taking her money. HE caused the homelessness, and it is HE who leads us to and pokes misery at us. He's the one who propelled your rape and all other rapes; deceiving you and so many more like you. God's adversary, the devil. He is responsible for all of it; it certainly isn't God.

He's misleading you now too. Yes, those guilty ones in prisons and every other evil works are all satan's works, working through people who commit these atrocities. Look into their eyes. Dead eyes, dead soul. Eyes whose soul belongs to satan; many given over to a reprobate mind.

But then, you don't really believe in satan, that's obvious from your last post. You give praise to satan in this post. Which means, you don't really believe in God either, otherwise you'd believe his warnings to us ABOUT satan.

Debate scripture with you? Are you kidding? You are right in one thing however, I will not waste much time on a satan defender; obviously a deceived satan follower, and THAT'S tragic.

You are however, right, we do have free will to make our choices, which you've made, excusing satan for the evil he creates and causes people like you to blame God. He's probably laughing at you right now. Whatever.

No ma'am, I am not willing to listen to anything a satan follower has to say. I pity you; you do not really know the lovely Jesus and who he is, and that's sad. Such a loss. He died for you and for us and our sins, IN OUR PLACE, but you defend the one who persecuted, prosecuted and had him nailed to the cross and all those who continue to persecute him by rejecting, blaspheming and not following and believing on him and HIS warnings. He is our ONLY way out of this place, Amber. But you defend satan, His great adversary, while HE is doing everything He can to protect and save us from the wrath to come. Against people like you.

Ha... While I DO have great empathy for you; I'd rather spend my time joshing with a sweet natured tree hugger than with you. At least the tree hugger has an open mind and a good spirit in their search for godliness and honesty. There's more hope for the tree hugger who earnestly IS searching than there is for one such as yourself who blames God for satans' work and then tries to justify it. Straight from the bowels of the devil himself.

Next time you come on here blaming God for the works of satan, just know there's someone waiting who will defend God and His great love for ALL of us.

Anonymous said...

Charlotte from Denmark: How do YOU know that Josh Dugger was told that ALL sexuality is sin and that his body is sinful? Were you there?

Just because his parents are now (shutting the barn gate after the horse has escaped)taking every precaution they can to protect their children NOW doesn't mean they are 'sick' people. They made some mistakes and some big ones; I do believe they have evaded some truth and ignored other truth, maybe even twisted the truth somewhat; and I DO think Josh showed definite pedophilia tendencies.

Speaking of those precautions they now take; my own mother as a matter of common sense, took those same precautions with her five little girls and not a one of us was ever touched. The only difference, we were allowed to play with our brothers while growing up; just, boys were also taught to keep their little pole in its' little pocket and out of sight. And NO touchy-feely! Comprende'?

I think you might want to follow some of that same advice yourself. Let's not get smug. You don't know WHAT your 15 and 17 year olds might get the urge to do before it's over, alrighty?

Anonymous said...

^^^

Fake hate.

Lis said...

Matthew 18:6
...but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 7
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Matthew 19:30
But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

1 John 2:21
no lie is of the truth.

Anonymous said...

I find Mrs Duggar's repeated use of the word "heart" and "hearts" to be disturbing.

Anonymous said...

XXX and Lis

Apparently you both missed the part where I said I'm not Christian. I know all the christian arguments.

Satan was created BY God. You really believe God is powerless to do anything about him if he were "against" Him as you say? God is all powerful. He has nothing that can come against Him or His will. If He did he could wipe it out like a bug. It's too deep of a subject to discuss here fully. I know what you believe. I'm trying very hard not to insult your beliefs. Check out Jewish teachings. Not the Christian version of Jewish teachings, Orthodox Jewish teachings. I am not Jewish, but I have found it beautiful and it makes sense to me.

I won't be posting anymore. Take care.

Amber

Anonymous said...

Amber,

Satan was originally created as God's most valuable, beautiful, beloved and trusted angel, he was the minister of music in the heavenlies and was the son of the morning. No, God did not create the evil; it was SATAN who created his own evil and descent, trying to take God's power as his own, gathering up 1/3 of the angels to become his demons and it was THEY who fought against God and his heavenly host, creating battles day and night. (Know this if you don't already; there is still a spiritual war going on between God and his angels and satan and his demons for our souls. This is why we have angels on this earth, and demons on this earth).

God kicked satan and his demon followers out of the kingdom into the realm of the firmament and this is why they are here in the firmament (the air just above us) and on this earth now. Yes, God could destroy them all right now with one breath, but we do not know everything, perhaps in doing so it would also include destroying all of us; we just have to trust God that He is doing what is in OUR best interest until such time as He makes his final move and rescues those of us who trust in, believe in, hope in and wait for Jesus.

Please don't stop posting just because of religious differences in opinion. You have many valuable insights to offer and a life that needs to be cared for with compassion, both past and present, that I see several here willing to share kindly care with you, myself included. Look back to another article, I left you a serious post this morning relative to your lack of oxygen that could be very helpful to you.

There are many things we do not know concerning God and His universe and will not know in this lifetime; issues that will not be revealed until all things are made known to us in the hereafter; as He said, "everything that is done in the dark shall be revealed in the light", things so horrible that I believe the human mind could not contain them if we knew. Even so, after our journey is completed here, there likely there will remain things forever unknown as scriptures says, "There will be no memory of the former things....." "All things shall be made new." And THAT'S a wonderful thing.

There's no need for any one of us to insult the others' differences in opinion and I apologize for anything I said in a personal way that offended you. I admit I am very outspoken in my beliefs, with no backing down or wavering; I stand up for Jesus at all costs and that's just the way it is. It is NOT religion or any denomination or any preacher I follow, nor is it the one called Apostle Paul who came after Jesus; it is Jesus Christ alone.

I make no apologies for this, not now, not ever. None of us have any other hope either in this life or out of it, whether anyone else believes this or not and I will hold onto this hope no matter what, until the end. My hope here is that someone, someday, somewhere along the line, will remember my words of hope and encouragement, even if it may be years from now long after I am gone. I don't even need to know, just so that someone finds their way home; this is all that really matters.

BTW Amber, I have checked out Jewish teachings as well as many others. This includes from the beginning of the old testament through to its' end and entirely through the new testament. They ALL lead me right back to Jesus and Him crucified.

You have a good day and forget about any debating or dissention. xx00xx....

Anonymous said...

XXX

XXX said: There's no need for any one of us to insult the others' differences in opinion and I apologize for anything I said in a personal way that offended you.

Amber: You can't unring a bell. I saw in one of your posts you mistakenly said I was raped. I was not raped, I was molested. I told before he got that far.

Something I believe more people need to understand. Child sexual abuse is always coupled with other abuses. Emotional/verbal abuse is the most common. This is the only reason I'm posting right now. People need to know! It took a lot of strength and courage for me to even post what I did on this board. I don't post on message boards for this very reason. You never know what creep you're going to meet. As I said in my original post the Duggar's had me triggered in a big way. It was about using religion to blame the victim.

Growing up I was not allowed to have my own mind. I was not allowed to have my own emotions. I was adopted by my father, so it was made known that I was different, that I was not his. Normal days I would walk on glass, not eggshells, glass, eggshells are too soft, waiting for a fight. Waiting for when I'd do something, anything to set him off. The only time he was nice was when he was touching me or wanting me to watch his porn, in which I would hide outside. He played manipulative games, such as tickling me roughly then when I would cry he'd call me a big baby and tell me I was no fun.

It wasn't what you were/are saying about your beliefs that bothered me. I've heard all the arguments and proved for myself what the truth is. I don't care what you believe. But you have no right to tell me I'm a "waste of time" or that I'm not "good spirited" or that I'm not "honest." You also imply I have no "hope." Disagree. Never belittle or demean.

Amber

Red Meat said...

Agreed. It was a pretty ugly personal attack couched in the guise of defending "God and His great love for ALL of us". Sadly ironic.

Emma Last said...

Amber I commend you for sharing your story and your opinions that takes guts. I also admire the grace you have displayed in reply to someone who is a Scipture bully. In the attempt to hush you they have given readers an example of how scriptures can be used for that purpose. Pure manipulation. Did the Duggars do the same thing?

Anonymous said...

I am sorry you feel the way you do, Amber.

Also, sad to see you deliberately and cunningly misleading others due to your misinterpreting several issues; particularly blaming God, in the person of Jesus, for all that is evil on this earth.

Just goes to show how impossible it is to get inside someone elses' head or their thought processes when they are not truth seekers, even when you (we) can show proof. You (us who defend) think you (we) have pointed out logic and reasoning to them only to find you (we) have not, we cannot. They don't want to see or hear truth. They can't be reached when they are looking for the worst, which they inevitably will find; even when it isn't there. Still, they will believe the lie.

Lis and I are not bullies; if anything you are Amber, offending the Gentle Master, as if to spit on Him all over again, by blaming Him for all the evils on this earth and gathering up others who will agree with you in your own subtle way. Are we not to stand up to this lie of the devil? The devil loves to point the finger at us and falsely accuse us, just as you have done.

We did not write the scriptures nor have we misquoted or manipulated them. They are what they are; take it or leave it. You choose to leave it, that's fine.

All the same, I wish you and them the best life has to offer, now and always...xx

Anonymous said...

Red Meat and Emma Last

Thank you for your comments.

I'm pretty sure, Emma, that thinking outside the "duggar box" is forbidden. This whole thing is not much different than racism. Any one who has a thought (instead of skin color) that disagrees with yours, is to be condemned.

The funny thing is I normally don't discuss religion much. The only reason I shared my views was due to the Duggars being evangelical christians. Religion was the topic. It made me think of the book I was given. I posted it on here because I love statement analysis and it's clear the Duggars are l are lying.

One thing that is bugging me is Peter. I'm hoping that he just doesn't read comments much, because if he does and didn't step in, then I'll have to retract my post in another thread. I said I believe he's a great man and I love how he can get to the truth. But great men wouldn't stand by while someone is bullied, not matter what their beliefs are.

As for XXX, I feel sorry for him/her. He/she has no clue who she is really following.

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

Amber

Anonymous said...

Now I see that you are trying to drag Peter into this, Amber.

You can have the last word.

I'm done with this. Moving on....

xx00xx

Anonymous said...

The Duggar Homeschool Program's Terrifying Advice on Sexual Assault

http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool-programs-terrifying-advice-on-sex-1706406324

I also have to question Michelle and Jim Bob's opinion that they weren't mandatory reporters. Teachers are mandatory reporters I would think that should apply to homeschooling also.

Amber

Anonymous said...

I think you would need to know the law in their state regarding reporting of suspected criminal activities among your minor children before you could question whether the Duggers were mandatory reporters.

Red Meat said...

https://rainn.org/pdf-files-and-other-documents/Public-Policy/Legal-resources/2009-Mandatory-Report/Arkansas09C.pdf

As Amber stated, "teachers" are mandatory reporters in Arkansas. The law does not say "public school teachers" but is broader than that. If you are a homeschool "teacher" are you a legitimate teacher? Oops, that's a question, even though I looked up the law.

I haven't seen the show- does Michelle fill the role of "teacher" to her many children who are not in an institutional school?

Anonymous said...

I haven't seen these laws and don't intend to ever see them, but aren't there also laws in their home state that protect parents of minor children in their own home from mandatorily having to turn their children into authorities for suspicions of committing a legal violation of laws in their own home while under their supervision?

IMO, no home school teacher is qualified to teach her children outside the school setting who is not a certified teacher. Whether Michelle is certified or not, I have no idea. If she isn't then she isn't qualified. She may be getting away with it as so many others are, but this doesn't mean they are qualified.

These home school teachers frequently go bonkers, abuse and kill the kids. Some are just plain mean and nasty. You can see them dragging their school-age kids around at Walmart and other places all day long every day, many treating them lower than dirt. The Feds need to step in and put a stop to it.

Red Meat said...

The Feds are screwing things up enough without giving them more to do.

"These home school teachers frequently go bonkers, abuse and kill the kids."

What's your definition of "frequently"?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Anon @2:13am said: I think you would need to know the law in their state regarding reporting of suspected criminal activities among your minor children before you could question whether the Duggers were mandatory reporters.

Amber: First, needing to know the law before you can question the law is like saying you need to know how to cook food in order to eat food.

Second, mandatory reporting is about protecting victims. I see they would want to protect their son, but it was at the expense of their daughters.

Red Meat, in the fox interview I don't believe they state who exactly teaches the kids. They just state that they were not mandatory reporters. I personally think all adults should be mandatory reporters. If you know a child is being victimized reporting is a moral obligation, imo.

Amber

Peter Hyatt said...

Red Meat,

there are home school moms strapping themselves with bombs, yelling, "No more food stamps! Let them starve", killing hundreds every year.

Peter

Red Meat said...

I meant in the TV show that's run for 10 seasons.

Red Meat said...

Wow! That is news to me!

Anonymous said...

I can't answer that, I never watched their show.

Amber