Monday, July 27, 2015

Deorre Missing: No Suspects, but Persons of Interest Due to Presence

Isaac-Reinwand

from EastIdahonews.com with quote that parents are "persons of interests" because they were at scene, but not "suspects."   Please see expanded analysis below.  

IDAHO FALLS — The third individual who was at Leadore campsite when two-year-old Deorr Kunz Jr. disappeared said he has no idea what happened to the toddler.
Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman confirmed Isaac Reinwand, 35, of Idaho Falls, was at the Timber Creek Campground on July 10alongside Deorr’s parents Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. and his as yet unnamed great-grandfather.
The sheriff’s office had previously withheld Reinwand’s name, referring to him only as a family friend at the campsite.
Over the weekend Reinwand’s name was widely publicized on social media, leading to Bowerman confirming the detail to EastIdahoNews.com

Yes, he was at the scene,” Bowerman said in an email. “He’s a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”

Bowerman said Reinwand, similar to Mitchell and Kunz, are “persons of interest” in this case because they were at the scene. However, at this time, neither Reinwand, Mitchell or Kunz are suspects in the missing persons case.

The great-grandfather, who authorities have not identified, also has not been labeled as a suspect. Authorities said his declining physical and mental health ruled him out at the beginning of the case.
Over the weekend, Reinwand was repeatedly identified as a sex offender with an extensive criminal history in online forums and on social media. However, police and court documents dispute that assertion. The Idaho State Repository shows Reinwand was charged with felony rape in 2006, but that charge was amended down to misdemeanor domestic battery.

Sheriff’s officials also have told EastIdahoNews.com Reinwand is not a sex offender.

“He does have a criminal record, however the police reports are not consistent with his record... not sure why,” Bowerman said in the email.
Bowerman did not elaborate on the inconsistencies. 
EastIdahoNews.com spoke with Reinwand briefly Monday morning on his doorstep. He confirmed Deorr was with him and the great-grandfather before he went missing, but Reinwand declined to answer further questions.

He just disappeared,” Reinwand said. 

Investigators are still classifying the Deorr Kunz Jr. case as a search and rescue. During the last two weeks, search crews have conducted extensive sweeps of the area, including the reservoir and the creek. The search was scaled back after 10 days. There is still no sign of Deorr. 
Mitchell and Kunz believe their son was abducted. Bowerman has not ruled abduction out. He said authorities do not suspect foul play, but has said in the past that everything is being considered in the search for the toddler. No suspects have been named in the case.
Deorr has been missing since the afternoon of July 10, when the Salmon Dispatch Center received a 911 call from Mitchell that the toddler had gone missing. 

The parents told EastIdahoNews.com they left the child with his great-grandfather and when they returned 10 to 15 minutes later, Deorr was gone. The great-grandfather assumed the child was with his parents.

“My dad was standing there watching him and he turned his head and then he was gone,” grandmother Trina Bates Clegg said on July 12. “It appears like he just vanished.”

That the body posture entered the subject's language is expected; this is a terribly tense scenario.  That she does not claim that he "disappeared" is very important.  
Saying "he disappeared" is something that would, by itself, bring a level of suspicion because disappearance is not possible.  It is very important that she be quoted accurately:

"It appears like he just vanished" is appropriate use of "appears" due to the impossibility of actual disappearance.  

This is not a 'sensitive' nor suspicious sentence.  

I would like to know what 'discrepancy' exists in the police record. 

It could be that the man was investigated for something, or a police report was specifically generated for something but he was not arrested or not found guilty.  It is an association with something. 

When I report, for example, that one has a "history of domestic violence", this is meant to be literal, and not judicial.  Many violent people are violent yet unconnected.  The lack of conviction is a legal status, but does not mean the person is any less violent. 
Therefore, in collateral interviews, a man could be investigated for child abuse:

a.  he did it but it was not proven
b.  he did not abuse the child but the report was a spite report
c.  he has been repeatedly reported for child abuse (or DV, or whatever) but with lots of suspicion, yet without proof enough to go to trial
d.  ...and so on. 

It is important to know if this man has ever even been accused of harming a child, or has had an association with child pornography, and so on, or if his criminal record has nothing to do with violence.  

The best predictor of violence is history, and the best predictor of sexual risk is interest, such as child pornography, 'barely legal' pornography, and so on.  

I once met a director of children's social services who asserted that just "having" child pornography doesn't mean there is a link to child abuse. 

It was a frightening statement.  

This man's name is associated with the missing child, just as the parents' names are as well.  

Had the journalist done an average job interviewing them, we would have known, with certainty, that they were involved or that they were innocent, but the interview was poorly conducted. 

Journalists would do well to train in Analytical Interviewing.  

The father's explanation about driving down the road for bars on the cell phone is highly sensitive.  Most people would, in such an emergency, just dial and not 'pre think' that they 'might' lose signal.  They just call and if it is a poor connection, get in the car and drive hoping the signal would improve. 

This is the portion of the father's interview that is the most sensitive part:

J: It was Friday.
D: Friday, about 2.26 was when I, was it 2.26?

This is to assert an exact time, while not remembering the day of the week.  

Should the same parent know exactly the hours (culmalative) the child has been missing ?

J: It was 2.36 when I called.

She corrects him with precision.  It is likely that someone looked at the cell phone to note the precise time, perhaps in preparation for the interview, or due to the "clock" ticking, concern.  We let the words guide us towards a conclusion.  

D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think, I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road. 


One might ask, at the conclusion of this statement:

Who cares that one might get cut off from 911 in such an emergency?  At least they would have his location.  

This is an 'over explanation' showing an acute need to explain his action.  

a.  Constant self censoring
b.  broken pronouns
c.  An over explanation about the phone call.  

It could be so sensitive because they argued about the need to call with him wanting to search a bit more first, or it could be so very sensitive for reasons associated with guilt going beyond the delay.  
The interview is with both parents seated next to each other; therefore, the use of "we" is appropriate.  With this established, when either parent moves from "we" to the pronoun "I", it becomes even more important to the subject.  (For new readers, the "subject" is the one speaking).  In the interview, he regularly "self censors", which is seen in sentences where he either stops himself entirely, or he changes pronouns in the sentence.  Pronouns are instinctive to us in English.  We do not pre-think pronouns.  You know when you are alone and say "I" just as you know when you are not alone you say, "we"; without having to give it careful consideration.  

Is this a form of stuttering?  Is this something he always does, or...

is it just produced in this interview, while his son is missing?

I do not know the answer, but it would not be difficult to find for investigators who need only to talk to him about an issue unrelated to his missing son, for a few minutes.  

Truck

We have an extreme point of sensitivity and it is about the father being inside the truck.  

It needs examination.  

1.  The Reason Why

In an open statement (that is a statement where one is telling us what happened, choosing his own words) when someone tells us why they did something, it is "sensitive" information, and could indicate that there is also missing information at this very point in the sentence.  

We note that the father, "D", explains why he did something without being asked by the interviewer. 

 This indicates a need to explain why he drove in his truck.   

This means that he thought to himself, "I better explain why I was in the truck because they are going to ask me about it. I need to beat the Interviewer to it. "

Why?

Why is this?

This goes for anything.  

When someone says, "I went to the store because I needed milk", the person felt a need to explain why he left the house, even though he was not asked why he left the house.  We hear this type of language in child abuse cases where neglect is suspected.  It has a feel like, "he has an excuse for everything!" frustration with the interviewers.  

I sometimes will even say, "I didn't ask you why you needed to leave the house" in seeing to 'up the ante' and put the subject, just a bit, on the defensive.  (it is a tactic in a larger strategy, dictated by the context). 

It is sensitive only when it is offered without being asked.  

Therefore, we assign the reason why someone did something only when not asked, to the color blue which is the highest level of sensitivity in analysis.  Should we find two colors of blue close together, the sensitivity becomes even more important to the subject.  Should we find more than two "blues" close together, we call it a "cluster of blues" and it is a very strong signal that there is missing information regarding this very point, and we aim our laser-questions at this point of the interview  


First, note the setting.  

He didn't know what day it was (some parents of missing children know the exact number of hours the child is missing, which is expected since it is so critical and hormone levels are elevated) yet he gave what he thought to be "the exact time" of the phone call.  

He almost had it right but was corrected by the child's mother.  This is seen in context of vagueness of the day, which, if due to fatigue, makes "2:36" sound rehearsed, but in error. 

The exact time was off and was corrected by the mother.  He did not remember the day, but used the word "about" when giving the exact time. There is nothing "about" when stating "2:26" as "about" is used to estimate.  We use estimation with round numbers, and round times. 

"It was about 2:30" is something we would expect to hear.  Not "2:36" corrected to "2:26", unless, for example, one is looking at the cell phone time while talking.  


The time when police were called by them is a sensitive topic, to him, linguistically, but not to her.  

Yet, there is something that is much more sensitive to him than the exact time of the call, which is related to the call, itself:  


The Truck

Please note:  placing himself in his truck is very important to the father, so much so that he twice explains why he was in the truck.  His location "in the truck" is something that is very sensitive to him, and there may be, concerning being in the truck, some missing information.  

This is very sensitive to him. 

Why is it so important to him that we, the audience know, he was in his truck?

Even without training, this journalist should have recognized his need to explain why and his repetition and should have asked about it.  

With training, the interviewer would have pounced on the sensitivity but even without, many recognize the sensitivity intuitively. 

That he was "hauling" is not only unnecessary to say:

no one would consider this a leisurely drive, stopping off to have a cigarette, admire the scenery, and eventually call 911 to report a missing toddler,   but it is also 'story telling', which is to make us consider the location of the emotions within his statement.  

"I was hauling" shows a need to present urgency, rather than urgency presupposed.  

The father in the truck has produced intense sensitivity in his language.  

Uh, we searched for - after about twenty minutes in a dead panic, not knowing where he was in such a small area, and not knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble.

He began with "we searched" indicating unity, but then gives an 'editorializing', or inclusion of emotion ("dead panic").  The emotion here is not necessary since the child is missing.  

Emotions in the "logical" portion of a statement are often put there artificially unless something has caused the subject to debrief and process the emotions. 

What causes emotions to enter due to processing?

a.  the passage of time. 

When enough times passes, it becomes more difficult to conclude "artificial placement" of emotions.  In truthful accounts, especially fresh, or told for the first time, the emotions come in the "after" portion of the statement.  Such as:

I could not find him;
we searched everywhere in the area;
I called 911. 
I was in a panic. 

This shows that the emotions take time to process, especially since parents are on "auto pilot", that is, zoned to find their child. 

What it makes us wonder is if they really were in a "dead panic", or they wish to convince us that they were.  We look for their words to guide us, and for the journalist to ask.  

b.  The repetition of the account. 

Once the account has been told, emotions have had time to settle in, and in repetition of an account, the emotion is then sometimes added in the "logical" portion.  

I do not know if this father has repeated this account enough times to have processed emotions.  I do not think enough time has passed, by this point, so my question has to do with how often he has repeated this account.  

"dead panic", however, is not a word ("dead") we expect a parent of a missing child to use.  This has caused considerable alarm in the comment section of the blog and this is a reasonable reaction to such a thing.  Recall Josh Powell saying that Susan would be 'eaten up like hamburger meat' in a verbal argument with her father.  This was:

a.  leakage
b.  a signal of just how much he hated his father in law 

He knew that he had dumped Susan's remains somewhere that wildlife would devour her.  

"Dead panic"is certainly a troubling phrase to use.  I would like to know if he has used this regularly, as  a habit of speech.  Yet, for it to show up here:  does he know something he is not saying? 

"I knew I was in trouble" is an interesting statement. 

Is this an admission of guilt and worry over oneself, or is it the words of a father taking responsibility, ultimately, for his son's plight?

Some very responsible parents will take full ownership and responsibility of the situation, making his son's disappearance his own trouble. 

It is also possible that this is 'leakage', that is to say, he, himself, is in trouble.  


 Um, so we decided to call search and rescue, uh, and that's when I drove down. 

"Um" is a pause, giving one time to think.  In working from experiential memory, is this necessary?

Next, "we decided" shows both the unity of "we", but also that they 'came to a decision', which is to say:  There was a delay in calling for help.  

I never like "we called" therefore, whenever I have heard it, I asked, "Did you both call?" as I want clarification.  It is possible that both called, or two calls were made, but I want this to be clear.  I have found, too often, "we called 911" to be in the language of the guilty as only one called, and the one who made the call, uses "I", but the other, the guilty, may wish to be seen as "part of the innocent" person's cooperation with police.  This goes for all sorts of crimes. 

Please note that when a child goes missing, there will be sensitivity indicators, as well as even signs of guilt, in both innocent and guilty parents.   We seek to discern the difference via context. 

For innocent parents, there is also an expectation of minimization.  To have a child go missing some adult must have been neglectful, in most all situations. 

For a child to go missing, highly responsible adults will blame themselves, even when the child did not go missing on said adult's watch.  This is because the highly responsible adult will hold herself, for example, responsible for letting the neglectful person watch their child in the first place. 

Years ago, Kyron Horman went missing.  Statement Analysis indicated step mother Terri Horman for deception and this deception was specifically about what happened to Kryon.  

Desiree Young was Kyron's biological mother, who blamed herself, as responsible mothers do, even for getting sick, and being unable to care for him, which is how he ended up in Terri Horman's hands.  

We must be on our guard for natural minimization and guilt, in the innocent parent's language. 

That "we decided" not only suggests a delay (during the 'debate') but likely due to fear of, first, over-reacting ("he's got to be here!), and, possibly, fear of being blamed.  

There was a delay in calling and they initially did not "agree" about making the call.  

Fear of being blamed is also something that shows itself, in the specific sensitivity indicators, and must be categorized in context.  

"we" turns into "I" when driving; that is, likely driving without his wife.  

I do not know who "search and rescue" is:  is this the result of calling 911, or did they have another number, specific to Search and Rescue?

Next, "that's when" speaks to time.  He returns to the truck, further making this a very sensitive point to him.  

The truck, the truck, the truck...it is repeated in his language, and it is something that is of great importance to him and even includes editorializing language, which often belies the need to persuade.  

We must remind ourselves:  The missing information could be only that they argued about calling 911 and the delay is something he feels either guilt over, or he worries that it would appear like guilt to others.  It could be only this and not more nefarious cover up of activity.  We do not have enough for a strong conclusion...yet. 

She tried getting a signal out - um, as soon as I got a hold of the,, I kind of, they told me that she was on the other line with them and they had our location, and they were on our way. They, they were amazing, they are amazing and they still continue to be. Ah, Lhema High County Sherriff and Salmon Search and Rescue, you could not ask for a better group of people, volunteers, and search and rescue, and just everybody. You couldn't ask for better people - so sincere, so concerned, and they were - everybody was emotionally attached to this, as you, anybody would be of a two year old. 



Lots of self censoring by him as seen in broken sentences. This is to stop himself, mid sentence.  Is this his normal habit, as a "baseline", or is it specifically triggered by the topic?

If it is his norm, so be it, but if he can talk about baseball, for example, without being "all over the place" in pronouns (this is restricted to pronouns because pronouns are instinctive), it is very troubling.  


a.  "Tried" in the past tense, often indicates failure.  


b.  Praise of authorities. 

This is something that is not expected at this time.  It is way too early for this kind of 'surrender' of a missing child where there was only failure to locate him.  

Parents want their child found.  When not found, they see authorities as having "failed" them, and it is not time for praise.  

When do we find praise of "authorities"?

1.  We find that authorities are praised by the innocent when the child is found safe.

2.  We find that authorities are praised by the innocent parent when the child is found no longer alive, after a long period of time has passed, and the parent has significantly grieved and processed the trauma, and recall, at moments of sheer terror, kind faces, or the 'small cup of water' offered in consolation.  This is similar to language in parents who outlived their child, and warm themselves with memories of the wake or funeral, and remember the kind comments of friends and relatives.  It generally takes time, however, to hear this. 

3.  We find the praise of authorities who fail to find a child by the guilty (those indicated for deception regarding the disappearance of the child):  the guilty did not want the child found, hence, the praise.  

4.  We find the praise of authorities who fail to find a child in the language of the guilty who reveal a desperate need to "make friends" with "police" (that is, "authority") and quickly align themselves.  

They sometimes even "name drop", and talk about how good "Sgt. Smith" was, and so on.  This can belie a need to be seen as 'part of the solution' rather than the cause of the problem. 

See the analysis of Brooks Houck, where on the Nancy Grace Show, he answered criticism for not searching for Crystal Rogers with both name- dropping and his own behind the scenes, searching, reminiscent of Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson.  

The father may have been treated well, but because at the time of this statement, his son had not been found, the praise is not expected.  

"Was attached" may indicate that he is thinking of the specific time period during the search; this is evidenced in how he breaks up time period of them being "amazing" including the future.  

The praise of unsuccessful searching is concerning.  

What about the blues of sensitivity in his statement?


D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think, I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road. 

The two most sensitive parts of speech in Statement Analysis are:

a.  The leaving or departing from a place ("left, departed")
b.  The reason why ("so, since, therefore, because", etc)

With (a) it means that leaving a place is more important than the arrival or location where one was going.  When "left" is used as an "unnecessary connecting verb" it is sensitive. 
"I was at my office and I went home" is a sentence that moves forward yet:

"I was at my office and left and went home" shows "left"as an unnecessary connecting verb (one cannot go home unless one first leaves, therefore, "left" is not even necessary to say.  This means the 'law of economy' is abandoned, and additional words are used giving us additional information. 
"Left" indicates that there is missing information in a sentence.  This missing information is 70% likely to be due to rushing, time, traffic, lateness, etc, but 30% likely to be critically withheld information.  It is very easy for the interviewer to learn what the missing information is likely to be:

"So, tell me what happened when you left your office?"

Answer a:  "Nothing.  I just wanted to get home."  This is likely going to be traffic or time. 

Answer b:  "What happened when I left?  Oh, well, my boss came to see me and..." indicating that the subject was still thinking about what happened at the office, just prior to leaving, because it was important. 

WE ALWAYS flag "left" for missing information and follow up questions tells us what it is.  

When the missing information is nefarious, the subject usually says, "Nothing, why do you ask?"

I say, "oh, I don't know" and move on. 

I then ask other questions but I will soon say, 
"Ok, let's go back to when you were at your office.  What hours do you work?"

My lens is focused at just before he gets out of work.

"I work 9-5"

"Always?"

"Yes."

"What hours did you work that day?"

"Why do you ask that, I just told you I work 9-5?"

I got him. 

No matter how much he squirms, I politely and in an even voice, always go back to the time just before he left which unnerves the guilty into thinking, "Holy $&%*^( !  This idiot knows and is toying with me!" which increases the pressure on him to unburden himself, release the pressure and tell me what happened.   At times, when necessary, I have gone "past" that missing hour of time for more than 45 minutes in the interview (to soften him) only to "go back" to the hour where missing information is.  It tells the subject who feels he must cooperate that I am relentless.  It is his will versus mine and I will not lose.  He wants to tell me and I want to know and he is going to tell me. 

Once an investigator has this much confidence in analysis and in the system, he cannot fail.  If the subject will talk, he cannot fail to obtain information.  It is only when a subject refuses to speak utterly, rather than, "I don't want to talk" (which is not a closed door) or anything like it, I am going to get the truth.  


b.  "Because" 

The Reason Why

In this point of sensitivity, there is no "70% likely" anything:  there is a story behind it and I am going to find it.  

In the interview, any time I hear the word "because" or "so" or "since", I flag it, and I will find out why this person has a need to explain himself. 

BECAUSE HE ASSERTED IT WITHOUT BEING ASKED, it is not only "sensitive" information, but he INITIATED IT, meaning, he not only wants to tell me, and he not only needs to tell me:

He has an acute need to tell me and any interviewer who learns this one element of Analytical Interviewing is going to find that:

His need to tell me the information is even greater than my need to get it.  

HE is actually the one desperate to tell me, even though I am desperate to know:  his desperation is deeper and emotionally tied to him.  He is the one who 'started' the flow of information with its use and HE is the one worried I was going to ask him. 

In an interview of stolen item, she told me about her day, hour by hour, including several points in time:  

"Then, I went on my smoking break."

Ok, that's fine. 

"After lunch, I took my 5 minute smoking break."

Good for you. 

"I went out to my truck to smoke"

I got her.

This is where the thief took the stolen item.  

She was thinking about the stolen item and worried that there was surveillance video in the parking lot (there wasn't but I did not tell her that, I just asked her if she thought the parking lot had a surveillance camera...She thought I was Satan for asking that question!), that's all.  

By telling me why she went to her truck when I did not ask her why, told me that she was afraid I was going to ask her, "Say, why did you go to your truck at 2PM?"  (I don't really say, "say") 

Once she used the word "to", my training in gear, I knew that she had done something that she did not want me to know about, nor did she want me to ask her why she went to her truck.  

When she confessed, I asked her the usual two questions:

1.  Why did you confess to me?
2.  Why did you confess at this time?

ALWAYS ask these questions and you will learn a great deal about yourself.  
Her statement showed a powerful need to be respected, so I was extra cautious in respectful tones.  She also said she had not slept since the initial event. 

But she said something else that is so important for you, the investigator to hear. 

She said, "But I thought you knew I hid it in the truck!"

This was the same truck searched by a police officer with 25 years experience who interviewed her and declared her innocent based on his 25 years experience.  (She confessed in writing and was convicted). 

The reason "why" shows a need to explain.  

It is something that Interviewers are trained to spot, through repetition, mock interviewing which is video taped, and then reviewed on video, more interviewing,  more written analysis, and so on. 

This is done until it becomes second nature. 

I saw recently that Wes Clark wrote that he tells investigators not to practice this newly learned skill on friends and family lest they lose them, but acknowledged that he knows they will and admitted:  you cannot turn it off after a certain point in training and practice 

He's right.  (I like his work).

D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think, I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road. 

Look at this again, perhaps without your spectacles:  


D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the 

truck hauling down to the road trying to get 

service because I didn't think one bar would 

get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was 

blessed that she was able to get service 

because I didn't think, I didn't want to try 

and risk getting half way through my talking 

to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to 

where I knew I could get a little service, 

about a half mile down the road. 

Look at his "reason why" in his statement; there are three of them, close together, creating a 'cluster of sensitivity'

1.  "Because" I didn't think, tells us not only "why" he was "hauling" (that is, rushing) but what he did not think. 

The first need to explain is found while telling us he was rushing.  No one asked why he drove down the road but he wanted it out there.  But there is something else for you to consider:

No one had accused him of delaying, nor taking his time, to call 911 for his missing son. 

That he told us what he "didn't think", which is in the negative. 

"I drove down the road to where I thought I would find a better signal."

Instead, he needs to tell us not only why he drove, but what vehicle he was in.  We did not ask him, "What vehicle did you take?"

We did not ask him, "Were you driving really slow?"

None of these things were posed to him by the interviewer.  "We" is the audience. 

He "didn't think" is stopped.  He has censored himself from giving us information. 

2.  "Because I didn't want to try..."

"I didn't want to try"?  Why not?  If you tried and failed, you can "haul" down the road IN YOUR TRUCK and try again.  There's no penalty for dialing 911 twice. 

Something is wrong here. 

Something is missing here.  

Why would anyone care if he was standing on top of his head, dialing 911 with his toes, as long as he called 911 for his son?

3.  "So, I went down to where I knew I could get a little serve, about a half mile..."

Not only does this tell us "why" he did something (get in his truck and drive) but now he wants us to know the length of the drive:  "about a half mile."

We would not give a rat's patooty if he was in or out of his truck, had one bar or two, or how far he drove:

We only care that he called 911. 

He, however, cares very much that we know:

Where he was when he called 911, in his truck;
How far he drove his truck to call 911;
How fast he drove his truck to call 911; 

She got "lucky" that she had a signal; in fact, her luck is made sensitive by him, according to him, with "very very lucky"; something of which he did not have.  

To be "very very lucky" is only in comparison with a reference point.  What is his reference point?

It is his own delay in calling.  She was "very very lucky" in her call, but only in comparison to him. 

Yet, who  was "blessed"?

Answer:   He was.

Question:  Why was he blessed?

Answer:  Because she could get a signal.

Question:  Why is this a blessing, since he got through, too, with a very short delay between the two calls; so short, in fact, (due to his "hauling") that they were both on with 911 at the same time. 

This "blessing" sounds scripted.  

She was lucky but he was blessed. 

One is random, one is providential and is an invocation of Divinity in the language of most. 

The search and rescue were amazing. 

They failed to find him. 

The father's extreme sensitivity tells me that he was the one who needed to "agree" to call 911 and that there was a delay in making this call. 

The delay could be the reason for guilt in his language and sensitivity indicators, however, it is not my experience that a short delay in calling 911 would cause such a reaction rather than the fact that the child is missing being the 'reference point' for the entire interview!

This is not expected.  

Yes, he could have guilt because of the delay, because he chose the site where his son went missing, or even that he was friends with the man who is also named a "Person of Interest" with an unknown criminal history. 

Parents do, in fact, blame themselves for that which they did not do.  This is often a signal of being highly responsible parents.  If a babysitter that I chose harmed my child, I would blame myself as being responsible for choosing the babysitter that brought harm. 

I would probably also blame myself for choosing a camp site with water, if my son had drowned there.  

I would blame myself, irrationally and illogically, as well. 

Yes, it could be these things. 

Yet, I have my doubts, especially with the need to learn why his truck is so sensitive that it gets repetition and signals of missing information.  I liked, "my son" references, including the contexts, though I would not have minded hearing the child's name, too.  

"Dead" and "I" associated with "trouble" are concerning but I do not know, yet, why.  

Had this interview been conducted with even marginal training, we would likely know much more information at this point in this tragic account of a little boy's life.  

If his friend at the camp is, indeed a sex offender, the father could have rambled on and on nervously trying to portray himself in a positive light because of guilt of having the sex offender near his child. 

It is true that some men are falsely accused in spite reports, but a momentary lapse of judgment is all it can take, to effectively bring a lifetime of pain to the child, and every person who loves the child, for the rest of their lives.  

We remain open about the possibilities, and hope for answers.  



406 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Jessica has court cases, including some small claims ones for unpaid debts. Dad (Vernal Deorr Kunz) also has 12 court cases listed, including a divorce (no children) from Jaime Christen Kunz in 2011, and a trespass charge in 2014.

Juliet said...

Remember how the interview began with the question 'it was Friday?' and how DeOrr said he wasn't sure what day it was today -he tried to deflect the question - he maybe wanted to give the impression he was confused, and didn't remember what day they had arrived, or what day DeOrr disappeared. There's also the confusion round the six o' clock sighting by the lady in the store, and DeOrr and Jessica saying it was earlier. If they had arrived the previous day, the six o' clock sighting could have been the day before, and might explain both their eagerness to have it discounted, and DeOrr's cagey response as to what day it was. It's unlikely the lady in the store was wrong, and that there would have been many people 'fitting our description of our son' at such a remote location around the same time, and in a black truck. There were no other campers around to visit the store. I don't think it's been confirmed that the sighting was on any particular day, just the time - it's natural to assume it could only have been on the Friday, as that's the day they say they arrived - but could it have been on the Thursday that they arrived, and also the sighting? Grandfather DeOrr probably knows when they set off, so no doubt LE do, too, by now, so there's not much point in speculating, but it is interesting how DeOrr tried to deflect that first question, and how he admitted it was him, but didn't say that DeOrr was with him, nor deny it - when, if it was him, it couldn't have been at six (that day) as DeOrr was missing by then. They say they went to the store as a family, but the lady at the store mentions only a man and boy. So I am thinking he and Jessica, with or without DeOrr, went to the store earlier in the day 'as a family' on either the Thursday or the Friday, and DeOrr was there again, with little DeOrr at six, on one of those days. If it was Friday, he would have had to have hidden/found DeOrr - and the likelihood of that not being discovered with LE around searching, and highly likely to ask at the store, would be remote. Maybe the 'rumour' they wanted dispelled is that they were actually there the day before, and having that discounted took priority over their even considering it might be a genuine sighting (not considered, because they already knew it wasn't?) - but why would they have reason to lie about the day they arrived, if they did? I can't think of any, but as none of it makes sense, thought to add it to the rest of the speculation.

Amanda said...

Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman did confirm to EastIdahoNews.com that Reinwand was at the campsite alongside DeOrr's parents, when the boy went missing

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/28/lemhi-search-deorr-kuna-persons-interest/30799181/

Anonymous said...

anon @ 7:55 you mention that Jessica had some court cases, was there no divorce or custody cases? she has 2 other children from a different father.

Anonymous said...

As far as I'm concerned, this sheriff and his deputy have fallen down on the job. They have PROVED that there is no sign of the child within a three mile grid of where the group claims to have been camping with little DeOrr when he went missing, but they can't prove that the child was ever there; NOW they need to get on the ball and make FOUR arrests; that being the parents, the pedophile and the elderly old great grandpa. Yep, him too. (An old man is not too old to hold down or fondle a child).

Jessica claims to have been the caretaker of her great grandpa, (right, Jessica was ALSO getting old grandpa's social security checks too); now we find the pedophile was/is a close bud of old grandpa, claiming their AA affiliation as their close connection. A close friend with a PEDOPHILE? Gimme a break!

Momma Jessica and Daddy DeOrr had this pedophile hanging around their home before they ever hightailed it off on a camping trip!

They thought so little of claiming they turned their back and walked off on an exploration trip in the woods that they would leave their baby alone and in the hands of a pedophile and an elderly old man who was/is too frail to protect the boy or safely care for him? That's a joke, when the old man doesn't even have the good judgment to keep a pedophile AWAY from this toddler child who cannot fend for himself. NOR DO THEY!

NOW one wonders exactly what was the arrangement in their home? Was the baby left alone on other occasions in the care of this pedophile and the old man? Hell yeah, you know he was. The old man lived there and the pedophile was 'close' with him for the last five years!

The possibility is more likely that this child never came with them on this camping trip in the first place, unless it was to dispose of him along the way or somewhere in the area; then the dummies in their hysterical haste forgot to dispose of his little blankie, monkey & cup that he clung too. Juliet makes a good point in suggesting the possibility that they came up to the campsite the day before; and IF the child was seen the day before in the store, which IS a possibility, then he was killed and disposed of either that evening or the next morning;

However, there IS a possibility that the camping trip was a set up to claim little DeOrr was kidnapped. Sure, I'm speculating but does it sound right, does it make sense? At this point it's the only think that DOES make sense.

Juliet said...

Anon at 6.28 - You have the grandfathers mixed up. The grandpa on the camping trip is Jessica's maternal grandfather, the baby's great grandfather - Jessica and DeOrr Sr live with DeOrr Sr's father, the baby's grandfather, who is in the one who has given interviews. It has been said on social media that Isaac was great-grandfather's carer, and also that Jessica had recently been hired by her mother to care for him. These are social media rumours, and may or may not be true or not. The deputy has stated that Isaac is not a sex-offender, therefore of any type, so we have nothing to suggest he is a paedophile. The rape charge against him was reduced to domestic battery. Presumably this involved an adult female. It would need a court order to see his sealed record, possibly crimes of any type committed as a juvenile.

The grandfather on the camping trip is not the one the family has been living with, so there is no reason to think Isaac had been in the home around Baby DeOrr.

Anonymous said...

Jessica lost custody of her other 2 kids in 2013, the father has full now. Obviously she isn't that great of a caregiver.

Anonymous said...

DeOrr's older two siblings live with their father, Brennon Birch, who has had full custody of his children since at least October of 2013. There is no evidence of a divorce for either him or Jessica Mitchell in the Idaho Depository records. Perhaps they were never married.

Anonymous said...

On the subject of court cases, many of the characters in this "play" have citations for various combinations of driving without a license, failure to use a seatbelt, no car insurance, no car registration, speeding, drunk driving, trespassing, and bills in collection.

Anonymous said...

Don't long haul trucking companies generally require their drivers to have clean driving records?

Anonymous said...

IF I AM WRONG; thank you Juliet regarding my post at 6:28 a.m., I stand corrected. However, there have been other posts made earlier in the preceding page that speaks of Issac being a pedophile. I don't know what's true and what isn't, and don't know if anyone else does either; but I do know all is not as it seems regarding missing toddler DeOr,r and this family AND ISSAC needs to be investigated in the county they live in and not just around the campsite.

BTW, my most important point was not who is who or who they belong too in the grandfather category, it is that this child should never have been left in the care of an old grandfatherly man who is not capable of looking after himself much less a little toddler, and particularly NOT since he is so rattled and of such poor judgment that he is best buds with this Issac creep who is half his age, with both being (former?) alcoholics; but this also goes for momma Jessica and daddy DeOrr.

Anonymous said...

Not only are they required to have clean driving records Anon @10:16, but they are also required to maintain an active CDL in good standing otherwise their company would not be able to cover them under their insurance. That doesn't mean some of them aren't rough people on their over the road long haul trips as they are.

Anonymous said...

Another tribute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL0Gv9PiaLY&feature=youtu.be

Look like something that might be played at a funeral or memorial service?

Anonymous said...

Video at about 1:35 shows child wearing a shirt that says I'm Just Like My Mom...I Never Shut Up.

Juliet said...

The video was first posted a few days ago by a Stephani Burkman. I can no longer find the original upload on YouTube - it's the same video, but it's been uploaded by another user, or from a different account. Perhaps Stephani deleted it, or it's there, I just can't find it.

-----

Brook - the persistent ad came back within a couple of clicks, so I spoke too soon. The only way I can navigate this site without being stopped by the ad is to turn off java script, which makes YouTube blank, so that's a pain, and I'm now switching it on and off to move between sites, also can't post comments without leaving the site and turning java script back on.

Peter, I would also recommend Amazon if anytime you do a revamp - it's easy to set up and the bookstore in the sidebar options are good, though the commission is not great. You could also make YouTubes for the site, and monetise them, you'd get a lot of views with the use of keywords/tags, guaranteed . :)

Juliet said...

Anon at 11.56 - yes, I agree with you regarding the parents leaving the baby with grandpa and Isaac - I doubt that they would have done that, or that they did. It's a bit like the McCanns going off and leaving three toddlers in an unlocked apartment, I doubt that ever happened either.

Anonymous said...

I saw this comment below posted on Brennon Birch's Facebook under his original post on July 24. It sounds like there is new stuff going on in the case that they can't talk about. He sounds supportive and non accusing of the parents. Wonder if the news is related to Isaac R.?

"Just makes me mad . I know more than anyone about all of this . I talk to jess every day . I talk to deorr Sr. I know the case . I know what's new and its so hard to bite my tongue."

Anonymous said...


Was Jessica married to Brennon Birch? I'm assuming he is the father of her two older kids? How old are Jessicas' older kids? Where do they live? Just curious.



















Anonymous said...

I don't think they were married but he is the father of the two older kids. I'm not sure how old the other kids are for sure. Look to be about 6ish for the girl and 4ish for the boy. I think they live in Ribgy which is just north of Idaho Falls.

Anonymous said...


"Just makes me mad . I know more than anyone about all of this . I talk to jess every day . I talk to deorr Sr. I know the case . I know what's new and its so hard to bite my tongue."

Sorry Brennon, that's all hearsay.

Anonymous said...

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/postregister/obituary.aspx?n=lynda-s-bates&pid=127206337

Anonymous said...

Brennon Birch from July 13:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WII65k6buXk&feature=youtu.be

Anonymous said...

Regarding the comments about the water being downhill from the camp. That is not true. A creek flowing from the reservoir was right next to the camp, but the reservoir is above the campsite, meaning if Deorr fell in the creek and was washed down it would have been AWAY from the reservoir. The grandfather who was interviewed was talking about the reservoir and how little Deorr wouldn't have been able to make the 1/2 mile trek up to the reservoir and if he was in there, someone brought him up there.

Also, the link to the picture of the chairs at the campsite, someone mentioned why were there only 1 chair and a double chair (3 seats) when 4 adults and a kid were on the trip. You may not have noticed, but the caption for that photo mentions that is the campsite where the parents moved to after the search started. By then I think it was just the 2 of them.

Anonymous said...

Juliet - I have not read that Isaac was a "carer" (never heard that term before) for the GGF. I've read several places that Jessica who is/was a CNA was paid by her mother to help take care of him (but I have no proof of that). I think a lot of guesses are being posted and being run with as facts. I read that Isaac and the GGF met in AA 5 years ago, but I am not sure if that is true or not.

If Isaac was in AA, I have a feeling he is off the wagon.

Anonymous said...

Whoever mentioned there is no record of Jessica and Brennon Birch's divorce in the online Idaho records needs to look again. I have seen it myself. Do a search for Jessica Birch.

Anonymous said...

Juliet - That Stephani Burkman changed her name on the Youtube video to something else. I had her video bookmarked and when I pulled it up again the name was changed.

Anonymous said...

Are DeOrr and Todd Kunz related? He is a news anchor/journalist/executive producer. http://www.localnews8.com/Todd-Kunz/16210180 Their affiliates are CNN, CBS, FOX, ABC, Telemundo, CW..
If JM is actually related to the sheriff and DK to this guy then then there may be no news. It's a really strange story.

Bubbles said...

Somewhere I read that Kunz is a fairly common name for that area, but I don't know if they're related or not.

Juliet said...

Anon at 11.47 - that's interesting. It must be the same upload if you bookmarked it. Her family videos are either now private or removed - there is no mention or link to the video in her Facebook, nor I don't think on any of the family pages to date. Stephani and Brennon are still Facebook friends, and that is recent.

Anonymous said...

I may be mistaken, but I think the new video has some extra pictures in it.

Anonymous said...

HOT OFF THE PRESS:

Sheriff says he's convinced DeOrr Kunz was not abducted.

http://www.kboi2.com/news/local/DeOrr-Kunz-Missing-Idaho-320303121.html

Anonymous said...

That article also says the FBI has been called in.

Anonymous said...

The FBI is now investigating, hopefully they can find out what happened.

Anonymous said...

Jul 31, 2015 at 12:20 PM MDT
Sheriff Lynn Bowerman updated KBOI 2News on the case of missing Idaho boy DeOrr Kunz, who was last seen July 10. Although he's convinced the 2-year-old was not abducted, Bowerman said he's unable to rule out the possibility.

The sheriff also said on Friday that the FBI is sending a team of investigators to assist the Lemhi County Sheriff's office who will be checking the sheriff's office interviews and may re-interview some people to make sure deputies didn't miss anything.

Anonymous said...

“We continue to hope and pray that our ‘little man’ will be found soon,” Jessica Mitchell and DeOrr Kunz Sr., DeOrr’s parents, said in a short written statement to EastIdahoNews.com.

Their comments came the same day Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman the FBI is helping his detectives with the investigation.

DeOrr’s parents confirm they have been in contact with the FBI and, according to Kunz, investigators have searched their house and vehicles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdPLQaDQMNY

Anonymous said...


"Even though he kills me, I'll continue to hope in him."

International Standard Bible Job 13:15

Anonymous said...

Heres some updated Backward Speech analysis:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1610456502575373&id=1568196156801408

Tania Cadogan said...

I'm beginning to wonder if he was ever even at the campsite.

Anonymous said...

The Backwood Speech author believes it was a staged kidnapping that went wrong, and that the deceased child will be found about 3 miles from the campsite, near a house. Said author also claims to have received death threats from the paternal Grandfather of the child.

Anonymous said...

Yet another odd death in this extended family:
http://www.news-examiner.net/?p=6808

Anonymous said...

This "reverse speech" is pseudoscience; it has absolutely no validity to it whatsoever. This Kellen fake is selling snake oil, and it's sad that some people are gullible enough to fall for it. :(

lynda said...

Well, the mom of Jessica (Trina Clegg) is answering questions on the KIFI local news FBpage. According to her statements

1. Mom, Dad, baby, gpa, Reinwald ALL arrived at the campsite @ 9:30 PM THURSDAY NIGHT. NOT FRIDAY MORN.

2. She stated the vehicles were "My Dad's suburban and camper, Isaac rode the with my Dad slept in a tent, DeOrr Sr truck they slept in the back of my Dad's suburban with Baby DeOrr. They all arrived together at campsite Thursday evening.

3. LE has been very quiet to them since FBI arrived

4. She was specifically asked whether they passed polys and danced around question. Said they took them, as did her father, but she doesn't know about Isaac R.

5. She clears up the "EMT bag" off camera in parents interview. At approx. 3PM friday, the back window of a pick up truck was broken and an EMT bag was stolen from that truck. The truck had nothing to do with family per se..it was just something that happened in close proximity to the campsite a little after 911 was called.

6. She said the Deorrs had planned the camping trip about a week before they left.

7. She said that they went to store the next morning to buy female products and that candy was bought for baby and grandpa.

8. The ggrandpa is HER DAD. She stated that he is on oxygen 24/7, poor health but DID NOt address any declining mental faculties. She said that he is very upset and emotional about this.

9. Said that LE did not have search warrants to search houses, they did so with permission of family.

10. She stated creek was 20-30 feet from campsite and according to her dad, IR was fishing in the creek when Deorr disappeared.

11.she said, My Dad has lung problems. Since this my father has been very upset and emotionally struggling.

I have been informed Isaac was at the creek but the interview he stated something different

12.She stated: I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Call Lemhi County about searching. I'd like to know what they say (HONESTLY) I don't ask I just go and search

13. She got the dirty diaper when she arrived at the campsite on Friday afternoon after he had disappeared. (She is assuming that that "proves" he was at campsite...because parents had dirty diaper.

14. She said "We were told to hold off on the media due to all the negativity and it is taking the focus off of my grandson and him being located"



https://www.facebook.com/LocalNews8

Anonymous said...

The grandmother stated that the pickup was broken into, and EMT bag was stolen from it on SATURDAY--not Friday.....

Anonymous said...

Juliet -- if you Google "Deorr Stephani Burkman" (without the quotes), the first thing that comes up is the video. It says her name right there, but when you click into it, it says "Just a Girl".

Anonymous said...

I knew Isaac was bullshitting when he said he was there with gramps when Deorr went missing. Unless his idea of being there meant anywhere in the forest....but I think most people would know that the reporter meant where Deorr went missing, not somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

Isaac did it.

Juliet said...

Anon at 2.43 - Google knows. :). I don't know for sure, but I think it's the same video, and the account details have been edited to hide the user's identity. Either that or it's been re uploaded to a second account belonging to the same person, but I think most likely the first.

Lynda - thanks, and how interesting. I wanted to copy and paste all the grandmother's comments but I clicked away from them after I had got only this far. They are buried so deep in other people's comments it is hard to find them again, and I don't have time now, but I got this far:

-------


Trina Bates Clegg My father is 76 and on oxygen 24 hours and not in good health. Don't ever say anything about my Dad unless you got facts. He is very cooperative and has done is pologragh.
Like · 2 · 10 hrs · Edited


Trina Bates Clegg If you have questions ask!!!!!!! I'm the grandma to Baby DeOrr and my Dad was the last one to see Baby DeOrr
Like · 2 · 10 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg They had to go to Leadore for female items and bought my Dad and baby DeOrr candy. This has been verified by the cashier
Like · 2 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg My Dad has lung problems. Since this my father has been very upset and emotionally struggling.

I have been informed Isaac was at the creek but the interview he stated something different
Like · 2 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg Everyone seems to have opinions how about hiking boots to be with us for the last 21 days?
Like · 1 · 8 hrs


Juliet said...

Trina Bates Clegg I DO NOT FEEL ATTACKED BY ANY TONIGHT ON THIS
Like · 24 · 5 hrs

Amber Silvers Trina, if you dont mind answering..When did they decide to go camping? Was this a planned trip or spur of the moment? Just wondering how many people knew of their plans?
Like · 4 hrs
Trina Bates Clegg My Dad's suburban and camper, Isaac rode the with my Dad slept in a tent, DeOrr Sr truck they slept in the back of my Dad's suburban with Baby DeOrr
Like · 3 · 4 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg They decided to go about a week prior to
Like · 3 · 4 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Call Lemhi County about searching. I'd like to know what they say (HONESTLY) I don't ask I just go and search
Like · 6 · 9 hrs


Asia Payne Can you let everyone know when it was that you were with him last (when you referenced his diaper)?
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg His diaper was from Friday morning at the camp site
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Baby DeOrr wanted to "stay with grandpa". My Dad seen him playing in the dirt and then he said he looked over and he was gone so he thought Baby DeOrr had walked to his parents. When DeOrr Sr. came to get him my father was in shock.
Like · 6 · 9 hrs · Edited

Trina Bates Clegg I know my daughter, Jessica, DeOrr Sr and my father have completed their polygraph test and I understood have done Isaas' but I personally can't verify

If I don't answer your questions please understand I'm likely to loose signal.


Trina Bates Clegg They arrived at the camp site Thursday night about 930pm
Like · 6 · 8 hrs


Asia Payne Trina Bates Clegg - it's seems like the national media hasn't covered your grand baby's story very much....I'm sure it's been excruciatingly frustrating for your family!! Hundreds of people would very much like to help you all get the national attention your grandbaby deserves!!! Have national media outlets been declining to cover the story??
Like · 1 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg We were told to hold off on the media due to all the negativity and it is taking the focus off of my grandson and him being located
Like · 4 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Creek is 20'-30' from camp area
Like · 3 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg All 5 arrived at the camp area at approximately 930pm
Like · 4 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I was told Isaac was at creek but his interview was different. My Dad said Isaac was fishing at the creek
Like · 8 · 8 hrs


Nichola Stanhope Thank you Trina.
Like · 1 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg The stories are very painful because we are asking for thoughts and plans and they say they are looking and maps and then this report came out today. I'm at a loss too
Like · 9 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg I've been there on foot and four wheelers and there is no sign. I pray for answers


Trina Bates Clegg I was not there until about 448 pm Friday afternoon after I heard
Like · 6 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Jessie Morrison I'm not pointing any fingers because if I'm wrong I have to ask for forgiven from God. The cops have been very quite since the FBI arrived
Like · 11 · 7 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I have understood the search will be extended to 10 miles now
Like · 8 · 7 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg A truck had the back window broke out at about 3pm Saturday very close to the location and an EMT bag stolen from it
Like · 6 · 7 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg DeOrr is not autistic.
Like · 8 · 6 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg They arrived Thursday night at approximately 930pm. The media needs to get the complete story.
Like · 5 · 6 hrs

Heidi Bishop Was the EMT bag taken from an ambulance, or a non medical vehicle?

Trina Bates Clegg Pickup truck as I was informed from the the officers


Trina Bates Clegg Misty River no warrants they are fully cooperating
Like · 6 · 6 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg Unaware about Isaac's house very quite since FBI arrived



Juliet said...

My post above are the grandmother's comments as copied from Facebook page Local News 8 - not necessarily complete, or in the right order - they are difficult to find, and to copy and paste, for me, using this state of the art contraption. :-/

Juliet said...

PS -Also, omitted are the many comments and questions interspersed between grandma Clegg's replies -it would've taken too long, and for the most part, the responses indicate what the questions were.

Anonymous said...

I read somewhere on another post that the father of Jessicas' two older children says he talks to Jessica and baby Daddy DeOrr every day and that he knows more about little DeOrrs disappearance than anyone else but can't talk about what he knows. Seems that he is about to bust a gut keeping silent. Why? If he knows so much why isn't he saying so, particularly to the Sheriffs' office?

I don't know that I would trust his judgment so much anyway, since apparently he has become so close to Jessica and Daddy DeOrr that his opinions could be slanted in their favor. Also, the fact that he had two babies with Jessica, a woman he wasn't even married too then wound up having to take custody of them, not that he doesn't love them but doesn't prove him to be a very smart thinker in my opinion.

ima.grandma said...

Thank you, Lynda, for discovering these eye-opening remarks. Juliet, thanks for your efforts applied to the awkward copy/paste function of the tablet/iPad. Your sense of humor is appreciated.

Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Asia Payne Can you let everyone know when it was that you were with him last (when you referenced his diaper)?

Trina Bates Clegg His diaper was from Friday morning at the camp site

Grandma issues a passive response and sidesteps the question about when she last saw Deorr Jr. We still don't know when she last saw the baby. It's difficult to analyze Facebook comments simply due to the public nature of the interactive program and multiple contributions. I'm sure she has her own suspicions, possibly even within the family but she is loyal to her daughter, grandson and dad. She seems to be keeping the faith and supporting Jessica's words. However, the dirty diaper does not confirm baby Deorr's presence at the campsite.

Anonymous said...

What is the deal about the soiled diaper? Grandma Clegg arrives at the campsite that afternoon, after the baby was reported missing, and picks up a diaper that he had soiled that morning. She leaves the campsite and search area with the diaper and disposes of it in a church's garbage. Then she cites the diaper as being proof that the child had indeed been at the campsite alive that day?

Anonymous said...

I'mAGrandma @ 8:13 and Anon @8:58, correct. Grandma Clegg trips herself up in her explanation concerning the soiled diaper. She can't possibly verify that the soiled diaper is from that morning when she didn't even get to the campsite until later on that afternoon after the baby was reported missing. She also can't verify what time and when Daddy DeOrr bought candy for little DeOrr and the great grandfather. Further, how does she know where everybody slept that Thursday night since she wasn't there, or even what time they arrived at the campsite. Hearsay.

Now, the old gent may be too decrepit and sick to have to get rattled, questioned and worried like this, but he was also too old and sickly to be on such a camping trip. I'm on portable condensed oxygen myself and have serious lung and breathing problems; yet am able to get around, even to do my own marketing, and can still think fairly quickly, etc., but there is no way I'd allow myself to be set down in the middle of the woods on an overnight camping trip. Acute shortness of breath and pneumonia can set in very quickly with people like us and we can wind up needing emergency care very quickly. This was nowhere near an emergency room facility.

He might think he was able to make this trip but he really wasn't, even with taking his oxygen machine with him. I question WHY this old man was there and WHY was Jessica dragging him around the countryside since she WAS being paid to take care of him. Was it just poor judgment or what? But most of all; WHY would she leave the baby in his care, even for five minutes! Good heavens.

Juliet said...

http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

In this report, grandfather Kunz (not the one on the camping trip) says they were setting up camp when the baby disappeared, and that it happened during four minutes when he wasn't being watched.

I don't know much about camping, but i would expect that on arriving, one sets up camp, but now, in contradiction to the impression given so far, it transpires that they arrived on the Thursday, at 9.30. Perhaps too late to do more than go to sleep, but the tent for grandpa and Isaac would have needed putting up, so the main part of setting up camp would already have been done by the Friday. If they did leave some setting up till the Friday, would they then go off exploring if they were in the process of setting up? Were they exploring or setting up camp? Also, I wonder if it is the media which has not got the story straight, as suggested by grandma Clegg, or if they have just been relaying an impression given them by the parents of the day they arrived. I will have another look to see if any report says they arrived Thursday, or if they all give the impression that they arrived on the Friday.

Anonymous said...

Grandma's statement that the family arrived the previous evening seems to contradict Mom and Dad's that they went "exploring" right after they set up camp.

Anonymous said...

I find it extremely odd that this is the first time anyone has said that the family (supposedly) arrived the night before. Wouldn't Grandma have give the diaper to the police since it could be evidence? And how far is this church from the campsite?

Juliet said...

I've looked at a fair few of the early reports - they all say he disappeared on the Friday, I can't find any which say when the parents arrived. However, if the six o' clock sighting was at six, and if it was them, which DeOrr confirmed, whilst disputing the time, then it would have had to have been on the Thursday, if the lady in the store is correct in her recollection of the time. Grandma says they didn't arrive until 9.30pm. Maybe the lady in the store was mistaken about the time. Even if so, I still don't get why the rumour was so important that it needed to be addressed on TV.

Anonymous said...

Diaper is sensitive. Early on, Dad and Jessica's ex posted rants laced with the words "crap" and "sh*t." Maybe the child was wearing pajamas bottoms because he had soiled his pants?

Truck is also sensitive. Maybe he had "potty" accident in the truck. Was he punished for doing so?

Anonymous said...

Juliet @ 10:52 am.... The rumor is important, because there has been speculation that the baby was never at the campground with them (or perhaps even on the trip at all).

Anonymous said...

Grandma's interview:

"A truck had the back window broke out at about 3pm Saturday very close to the location and an EMT bag stolen from it."

"I was not there until about 448 pm Friday afternoon." ABOUT?

448 is sensitive. Other mentions of "4" have been made. 4 adults at the scene. Vanished within a 4 minute window. 4/10 of a mile.

Anonymous said...

provoking Me to anger with the works of your hands

Jeremiah 44:8

There was a reference somewhere to the boy having soiled hands and playing in the dirt. Could this be diaper related? (Grandma refers to a soiled diaper, not a wet diaper.) And why would the parents just leave it on the ground, unless it fell out of a trash bag?

Anonymous said...

I pointed it out before, and if you are too lazy to search or re-check yourself, just know you are spreading false info. Do a search for Jessica Birch here: https://www.idcourts.us/repository/partySearch.do and see the 4th result down, with ROAs. It shows that "Birch, Brennon Paul and Birch, Jessica Lyn" were married and filed for divorce.

Anonymous said...

From Trina's comments it sounds like gramps got the camper, Isaac had a tent, and the rest slept in the bed of the truck (or at least that is what she was told).

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 11:34 a.m.

Okay, so Brennon and Jessica are divorced. I think the person upthread said it "appeared" they were not married. As for false information, we don't even know if what Grandma is saying is true, either, since she wasn't there until after the fact.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 11.50 - it may or may not be true, but it's presumably what grandma has been told is true by Jessica, at least - so it adds more information to the account given publicly by the parents, though worth bearing in mind that some people have a tendency to get things wrong in the recollection of what they have been told by others. The account of the diaper is first hand, however. How was this scent not picked up by the dogs - how only by the reservoir, which may or may not have been DeOrr's scent, anyway?

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg "This was my Dad's choose. We spent a great deal of time there when I was younger. It's been a family camp area that we went to when my grandma was alive many years ago. My Dad and I haven't been there in about 27 years."

Maybe sickly GGF wanted to go there one last time while he still could.

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg: "From the beginning I have been told from Isaac and my Dad Isaac was at the creek fishing. I was in shock with his interview when he stated he was at camp."

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 12:11...
Excellent point about the dogs not picking up the scent of the diaper.

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg has a number of court cases, including numerous traffic violations and unpaid debts.

Anonymous said...

Agreed Anon @ 11:50! As for you, okay then Anon @11:34, so you want to paint me as spreading untruths just because I was in error and misstated a fact. Did it ever occur to you that I am unable to view any of these links posted here? Just so you know that it is; unless the context of the link is posted then I can't view it. We used to have a simple way of clicking on links, now we don't. So there.

So okay, they were married and divorced, I stand corrected. You speak to me in such a tone as if you think you are superior to me, which actually makes you appear inferior to me. Duh... For beginners, you need to study some psychology 101 then you won't be so hyped up towards someone who makes an error without at least trying to explain the situation and allowing them some benefit of the doubt.

I wasn't deliberately trying to spread false rumors anyhow. I take it very seriously falsely accusing someone; this alone is the primary reason I haven't jumped on the bandwagon in accusing John & Patsy Ramsey in JonBenets' murder, when so much guilty knowledge does point towards Patsy, John too for that matter.

However, I KNOW that things are not always as they appear to be. This is not a reflection on the authenticity of Statement Analysis, but I KNOW that people are easily mislead, and that anything can be made out to be what one wants it to be, or twisted around to appear either negative or positive, innocent or guilty; which ever way the transposer wishes to view or slant the situation. So just gimme a break, woudcha?

Anonymous said...

You can copy any link address, paste it into your Internet browser, and then hit enter.

Sus said...

Just as earlier words revealed, everyone at the campsite puts Isaac Reinwand away from Little Deorr...except Isaac R himself.

The parents did not mention him in their account of leaving leaving or returning. Grandpa now states (through Trina Bates Clegg) that Isaac R was at the creek fishing.

Yet, Isaac R answered in the affirmative to being with Grandpa and Little Deorr. It sounds like he told the sheriff he was with Grandpa and Little Deorr. He is placing himself with Little Deorr, whether inadvertently, or not.

Further, in his statement to the reporter, "As far as I know, he [jus - questionable] disappeared, he disappeared." HE DISAPPEARED. is repeated thus sensitive. "As far as I know" tells us he knows something he's not telling. How "far" does he know? Since it is in relation to the sensitive "he disappeared" and he puts himself near Little Deorr who disappeared...Isaac Reinwand needs to be very closely looked at in Little Deorr's disappearance.

Juliet said...

Anon at 12.17 - my post, accidentall Anon. Yes, it has to be significant - I wonder why she went to the church to dispose of it, no nearer receptacle?

Anonymous said...

Is this Jessica's sister?

http://postimg.org/image/i55htifjp/

Anonymous said...

Isaac may be saying that he was with them (on the trip), i.e., in the general vicinity. But Sus' insights are well taken.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the (alleged) diaper was bloody?

Anonymous said...

Anon @12:13, it is entirely possible that the weak and frail sickly elder great grandfather wanted to go back to the area just one more time before he passed on. Just a few weeks before my son passed away of a massive heart attack this past September, he said to me; "mom, can we go back to Gatlinburg just one more time?" I said, 'we sure can, we'll go back in the spring.' It used to be our favorite place to spend long week-ends with his dad before he passed away when my son was growing up. Those memories lost to him forever.

We both knew that my son had a serious heart disease, which actually turned out in the end to be a birth defect that he'd had all along; and I felt that he would never live to be an old man as he was getting sicker and more unable to control his anxiety attacks, but I don't think either of us ever thought it would be so soon or so sudden.

I'm sorry to say we never made it back to Gatlinburg. Sure, even tho he is sickly, the elder man could be thinking he needs to do whatever he's going to do NOW. I could se other ways my son was thinking these things too after he was gone. Sad.

Anonymous said...

“The sheriff told us in all his history he’s never seen anything like this,” Grandmother Trina Bates Clegg said.

Exactly. They may be in over their heads. Thankfully, the FBI is now getting involved. I wouldn't be surprised if they send a profiler and/or someone skilled in interviewing.

Anonymous said...

I wonder exactly where Grandma Clegg found the diaper, since she would have gotten there after the sheriff and his search party? Why wouldn't the sheriff have already found the diaper since they would have searched around the immediate campground and picked up the soiled diaper first? Why would she have been allowed to take it out of the area and deposit it into a church dumpster? I'm not following this story at all.

Something in her description about the diaper is not adding up in the timeline.

Anonymous said...

Agree that the diaper is raising red flags. Sheriff would have founded it. Search dogs would have found it. Is GGF incontinent? Mention of going to the local store for female products. Could it have been a sanitary napkin? (although I'm sure Grandma knows the difference).

Anonymous said...

Why was it necessary for grandma Clegg to even mention that it was feminine products they went to purchase at the store? Too much info!

I wonder if this is when daddy DeOrr had hysterical and crying baby DeOrr in his dirty clothes with him in the truck while buying candy at the store? Someone else said in another post that 'they' went to the store to buy candy for little DeOrr AND the elder great grandfather, but not at the same time the clerk claims to have seen them in the black truck. ummm.... the mind wanders.

Anonymous said...

I think people are questioning why, since they had stopped at the store the evening before, they had to go again the next day. Answer: female products.

Anonymous said...

The child's parents, DeOrr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell, told authorities they left their home in Idaho Falls on July 10 for a weekend camping trip that included their son, as well as the mother's grandfather and his friend.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Q52OP20150731?irpc=932

July 10 is Friday, so how could they have arrived there on Thursday evening?

ima.grandma said...

Hi everyone, I am obsessed with this case, its driving me nuts. There's something I can't let go.

I copied the following comments from this blog. I tried to list applicable dates and titles of Peter's articles, several separate snippets from msm and my observations. Approaching homestretch and hitting Publish, I lost it all. I want to cry but have found a couple of things saved to Notes. Now I'm at 11% and I can't post before my battery goes out.

Maybe someone else can see where I'm going with this and take it from here. My stupid first generation iPad is old and just about burned up. It won't be charged for several hours. 


Anonymous said...
Okay...here's what I heard. I heard the mother say she called 911 at 2:36. Then I heard the father say he went down the road 1/2 mile to get a cell phone signal. ??? Yet I clearly hear him in the background while the mother is on the line with 911 dispatch...and the operator heard him too and asked if her husband was calling also. MAJOR RED FLAG>>>right from the getgo. Anybody else catch that?
July 19, 2015 at 8:43 PM

2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar would get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she was able to get service because I didn't think, i didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road. Um, so we decided to call search and rescue, uh, and that's when I drove down She tried getting a signal out - um, as soon as I got a hold of them,, I kind of, they told me that she was on the other line with them and they had our location, and they were on our way."
July 28, 2015 at 5:54 PM

Juliet said...
I wonder about his need to go off in the pick-up truck in order to make a phone call, not wanting to 'risk' calling from where they were, while the mother was able to make her call without going down the road. Later in the interview he draws attention once again to the 'here, there - it's camping' unreliability of the service, when talking about 'anybody I called' making themselves available. Was he thinking of from where he made those calls - did he need to go down the road to make all the other calls, or was there a reason he left the campground beside making the emergency call? He finds it necessary to justify and explain the call, the bad service - was it difficult for others to make calls from the camp, did it become apparent to others that it wasn't necessary for him to have avoided taking the 'risk' of calling, immediately, from the camp? Did he maybe realise that others would be suspicious of his reason for leaving the camp, once it was known that his wife was able to make a call from there? She was, he said, very, very lucky (presumably to have managed to make the phone call) while he was blessed. Really? 

MzOpinion8d said...

I've seen some comments that Dad DeOrr can be heard in the 911 call, but that's not right. There's a man speaking in the background but he is one of the dispatchers or law enforcement, and he's notifying someone that they need search and rescue for a lost 2 year old. The dispatcher asks JM if her husband is calling because another person had answered his call, and they wanted to verify it was the same lost child.

There's definitely sensitivity about the truck and the 911 call, but I believe they were in separate locations when they made the 911 calls.

Anonymous said...

This was posted on another site, but there is no way to verify it:
"The diaper issue has been somewhat clarified by TBC - apparently there was a church group at the campsite feeding volunteers and she placed a trash bag with the dirty diaper in it into the church's garbage on Sunday."

Anonymous said...

The Moderator of that "other site" has also declared any discussion of Grandma's alleged comments off limits, since they cannot verify that she made them.

Anonymous said...

BS. I find it hard to believe that the sheriff would have allowed either the grandmother OR the volunteer church group to take a soiled diaper off the premises or from the search area to be placed in the churchs' garbage. NO WAY. It could have had evidence all over it. Not believing this story.

Juliet said...

Anon at 3.42 - wow! So they reportedly told authorities they left their home on Friday, July 10 th - that's so NOT Thursday! Why would grandma Clegg suddenly decide to put it out on FB that they arrived at the campsite on Thursday? The plot thickens, or maybe it doesn't, and maybe they really did arrive on Friday, as we may or may not have been led to believe. All along I have had the impression they arrived on Friday, yet that six o clock sighting only makes sense if it was on the Thursday.

--
I can't find the pgost now about discussion of grandma TBC's Facebook comments not being allowed at another site as it couldn't be verified they were from her - the posts from grandma Clegg were made from her FB account, the same one which she has been using throughout the time DeOrr has been missing, and previous to this time. It's very unlikely that anyone besides the grandma would be writing all that stuff from her account.

--

I noticed the aunt, also posting in the same FB conversation, similarly avoided answering the simple enough question as to when she last saw little DeOrr.


--

Ima.grandma - sympathies on losing your post - I would like to have read it. :-/

lynda said...

I posted a direct question to Trina Clegg when she was asking questions last night on news station FB page

Me: Where is this church that you threw the soiled diaper out at? What do you think of the fact that LE let you do that? What do you think of it being in garbage instead of being confiscated for evidence, scent, DNA, etc.

Trina Clegg: The church group was at the site feeding the volunteers and I threw soiled diapers in their garbage. It was in a white bag hanging from a tree.

While I appreciated her answer, she did not answer what I really wanted to know..which was what she thought of LE allowing this to be disposed of?

John Mc Gowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Mc Gowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Mc Gowan said...

lynda said...

"I posted a direct question to Trina Clegg when she was asking questions last night on news station FB page

Me: Where is this church that you threw the soiled diaper out at? What do you think of the fact that LE let you do that? What do you think of it being in garbage instead of being confiscated for evidence, scent, DNA, etc.

Trina Clegg: The church group was at the site feeding the volunteers and I threw soiled diapers in their garbage. It was in a white bag hanging from a tree.

While I appreciated her answer, she did not answer what I really wanted to know..which was what she thought of LE allowing this to be disposed of?"



Hi,

try not to ask "compound questions". This gives the subject the opportunity to cherry pick which question to answer. You asked three questions. The subject will always choose to answer the least stressful of the questions and you may loose out on valuable information.

lynda said...

Ugh! You are SO right John...even tho I am a newbie I should have remembered that!! I'm going to go back to the page and see if she will answer ONE question. In the Q & A period on the site she typically ignored questions she didn't want to answer and then people gave her multiple questions, like myself, ACK! and you are correct..she answered the least stressful one. Thanks for comment.

John Mc Gowan said...

*lose out. Not loose! Duhhh lol

Juliet said...

Some more:



Trina Bates Clegg This was my Dad's choose. We spent a great deal of time there when I was younger. It's been a family camp area that we went to when my grandma was alive many years ago. My Dad and I haven't been there in about 27 years.
Like · 7 · 22 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Jessica's other children were with there Dad
Like · 3 · 22 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg No Jessica and DeOrr did NOT know Isaac prior to just my Dad
Like · 3 · 22 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I don't know how many people knew they were going camping except our fsmily. Unknown with Isaac
Like · 3 · 22 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg From the beginning I have been told from Isaac and my Dad Isaac was at the creek fishing. I was in shock with his interview when he stated he was at camp
Like · 5 · 22 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg My heart and soul says someone has him. I'm NOT pointing any fingers because I don't want to answer to God for my false accusations. My husband, many great family friends outdoorsman have searched and all said "he's not here".
Like · 8 · 21 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I haven't really spent any time with Isaac my Dad lived by him before he moved in with me almost two years ago in December.

Trina Bates Clegg I was planning on going up there Sunday morning
Like · 6 · 21 hrs · Edited


Trina Bates Clegg Friday at approximately 1238pm Jessica texted me and said she had got her female things
Like · 3 · 20 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg Baby DeOrr traveled there in his parents truck in his car seat
Like · 3 · 19 hrs · Edited


Trina Bates Clegg I'm truly unaware if there is live recording at the store there are cameras
Like · 2 · 17 hrs · Edited

Trina Bates Clegg The church was at the camp site feeding the volunteers. I threw the diapers in the garbage at the site Sunday afternoon. It was hanging in a tree in a white garbage bag
Like · 3 · 17 hrs · Edited





Anonymous said...

Were there small children with the church volunteers who were providing provisions for the search teams who were searching the area? Were they allowed to contaminate the search area? If there were other diapered children there, there could have been soiled diapers from their own children that were picked up and disposed of.
Clegg says she threw out soiled diaper(S), plural, not singular.

If there were no other small children in the area at the time the soiled diapers were thrown into the church volunteers' garbage, then Clegg threw out more than one soiled diaper that likely belonged to little DeOrr.

Why would the sheriff and his searchers have left soiled diapers lying around in the search area that could have held serious evidence? If the sheriff DID allow soiled diapers to be thrown out that belonged to little DeOrr, he did a lousy job at conducting the search for missing toddler DeOrr.

Further, what kind of slovenly mother or anyone else changing the soiled diaper of a child would leave them lying around and not have properly disposed of them at the time they were changed? Disgusting, smelly filth attracting vermin and insects?!

I'm still not buying this story as related my Clegg. Also, the huge discrepancy between whether the DeOrr party arrived on Thursday evening or Friday morning is a seriously big problem that needs serious investigating. HOWEVER, since it was described HOW they all slept and where they slept that Thursday evening, I lean towards believing they DID arrive on Thursday evening and not Friday morning, which means that Momma Jessica DID seriously lie and has continued in her lies. Further, her own mamma Clegg KNOWS she is lying.

This child could have been missing since sometime Thursday or Thursday evening (up to as late as Friday morning), giving the family plenty of time to hoax up their Friday gone missing story of them taking a quick walk, leaving the GGF in charge of watching little DeOrr that he knew nothing about (I call bullshyt!); them coming back and finding the baby missing. Not buying THIS story either. Liars.

I hope this sheriff had his eyes and ears wide open but I'm starting to wonder. He can say he 'has never seen anything like it', but acting on what he knows to be true vs. untrue is another matter. Let's hope the FBI leaves no stone unturned.

Anonymous said...

Juliet, IMO, Mrs. Clegg sounds like she is trying to be as straight forward and forthright as she knows how to be.

However, I do wish someone would ask her to repeat her story on how the family (and Issac) arrived at the campsite on Thursday evening around 9:30 p.m., describing how they all slept in their vehicles. She must have had a call or text from momma Jessica that indicated this which could be authenticated from phone records?

Also, the story that she was told that Issac was at the creek fishing at the time this child was discovered missing according to those who told her this (WHO told her this?), and that Issac himself had previously said he was not at the campsite but was fishing, which she also implies that GGF said this also, when little DeOrr allegedly went missing, then Issac said he was at the campsite... ?

Too many lies and discrepancies somewhere in all this! Peter, if you don't mind sayaing so; what is your opinion at this point?

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg Friday at approximately 1238pm Jessica texted me and said she had got her female things.

Why is this is so important that Jessica had to text her Mom to tell her? Maybe she had been worried that she was pregnant? But if this was around her normal monthly time, why didn't she bring protection with her? Or did something happen to her as well?

Anonymous said...

Regarding the diaper...Many campgrounds do not have trash bins, and expect campers to take their trash with them when they leave. It is common to hang a trash bag up in a tree so that the ground animals can't get into its contents.

But the store trip to get female products troubles me. Could they have been used to clean up someone else's blood, which Mom would would then claim as her menses?

Anonymous said...

Post Register - Aug. 2nd

http://www.postregister.com/articles/featured-news-daily-email/2015/08/01/lemhi-sheriff%E2%80%99s-seeks-fbi%E2%80%99s-help-search-toddler

"Todd Palmer, spokesman for the FBI office in Salt Lake City, said services made available to state and municipal law enforcement departments that request aid include behavioral analyses and testing of any physical evidence gathered in investigations."

Anonymous said...

"The Lemhi County Sheriff now says he can’t prove it, but he’s convinced the boy was not abducted."

http://www.klewtv.com/news/local/Lemhi-County-Sheriff-convinced-toddler-was-not-abducted-when-on-camping-trip-320377631.html

These words are telling. One could infer that the Sheriff knows exactly what happened, but "can't prove it." Perhaps the FBI can.

Anonymous said...

Now the FBI is being asked to help in the child’s disappearance. Lemhi County Sheriff, Lynn Bowerman, says abduction is being ruled out in the missing Idaho toddler’s case, Reuters reports.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2301205/deorr-kunz-jr-update-abduction-ruled-out-in-missing-idaho-toddler-case-fbi-brought-in/

Anonymous said...


Mrs. Clegg is lacking in common courtesy and class as it concerns a womans' cycle, an individual private matter of personal hygiene, etc. TMI! I don't think any of us give a damn about Jessica getting her period or if she ever does.

Anonymous said...

In the Post Register article, it says "The FBI is expected to provide resources that are beyond the financial scope of local law enforcement agencies as well as fresh eyes and expertise to sift through various elements of the investigation, including interviews of the four adults involved in the campout."

Anonymous said...

Jessica getting her period is important, because it provided them with an excuse to visit the store, have the child be seen there, add to the timeline. etc.

Anonymous said...

Parents: “We continue to hope and pray that our ‘lil man’ will be found soon,”

Notice the absence of the word ALIVE.

Anonymous said...

I'm more concerned that Jessica found it necessary to tell her mother about her female issue at all. Trying to establish something for the timeline? Bad cell phone service, but still plenty of text message capability?

John Mc Gowan said...

Trina Bates Clegg "Friday at approximately 1238pm Jessica texted me and said she had got her female things"

We have a 2/3 year old seemingly vanishing into nowhere. Yet, she tells us Jessica texted her to say "she had got her female things" This information may seem irrelevant to others, but to the analyst, we must ask. Why would she relay this seemingly unimportant information, thus making it doubly important to us.

I would like to know what are her "female things"?
Is she menstruating?
Did she think she was pregnant?
Was it the pill she was getting?
Was it a pregnancy kit?
Is it make up?
Is code for something else?
And many more...

Relaying this information is important to her. But, why?

Anonymous said...

I agree that the "female things" is significant. It helps to explain (or alibi) why they had to make a second trip to the store so soon after the first one (the night before), since tampons and the like are necessities.

But I don't buy why Jessica even had to tell her Mom this, and why Mom felt the exact time is so important.

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg said that they went to store the next morning to buy female products and that candy was bought for baby and grandpa.

Who exactly comprised "they" on that trip?

The store clerk claims that candy was [also] bought the night before.

Anonymous said...

Though she is warned that Rochelle, the hostess, makes a guacamole to die for, Jaine never takes the warning literally. Until another PMS member, Marybeth, drops dead over a mouthful of the green stuff after confessing she is having an affair with Rochelle's husband. While Rochelle and her husband are the obvious suspects, everyone at that night's meeting is under suspicion, including Jaine. So, instead of dishing dirt with The PMS Club, Jaine has to dig up dirt on the surviving members. And soon it becomes clear: someone in this club thinks getting away with murder should be a privilege of membership... The PMS Murder (A Jaine Austen Mystery)

lynda said...

I agree that the "female things" is bizarre. I have 4 daughters and not one of them would ever text me just to say they picked up any "female products". It could be code for pregnancy test tho. Not to be indelicate here but there is really nothing quite as good to soak up blood than sanitary napkins and tampons. I am sure the clerk knows exactly what items were bought and it seems mysterious that neither her, or anyone that is acquainted with her, has "gossiped" about her run in with the couple at the store on social media.

The 12:28 PM that momma exactly states is also troublesome. She's creating the same story as DeorrSr. and mommy. If Jessica texted her when they LEFT the store that would put them at the campground after 1PM and then baby went missing shortly after that. Then THEY LOOKED FOR AN HOUR and finally called 911 at 2:28. The "looking" time was verified by mommy saying he had been missing for an hour. So momma just verified the "timeline" of the 911 call.

Anonymous said...

I don't know. I was thinking about why Jessica would text her mother that they were hauling tampons in the truck?

People with an emotionally unstable personality tend to tell anyone who will listen about ALL their problems. IF Jessica is like this, and then maybe especially so before her period, and family vacations can be stressful; then this might be an innocent reason why she thought her mother should know this.

And/or maybe there was blood and/or fighting, verbal or otherwise, in that truck.

lynda said...

Whoa...it just dawned on me that Daddy and Mommy went "exploring" after coming back from the store for "feminine products" I think that is code for condoms or spermicide and Dad and mom were off having a little afternoon delight..which means they were gone longer than 10 minutes and further away then 50 yards as daddy stated in interview. That makes alot more sense than calling your mom that you got tampons. Her and mom could be riffing about her using birth control so she doesn't get pregnant again so Jess texts her to say "I'm protecte, get off my back ma"

Anonymous said...

"Trina Bates Clegg Friday at approximately 1238pm Jessica texted me and said she had got her female things"

12:38 pm, not 12:28. Note that she also says APPROXIMATELY 12:38.

Anonymous said...

Why wouldn't a woman with common sense take her feminine products with her to a campout, knowing she will be getting her period (or having unprotected sex) and there is no store five steps from the campsite? How many stores did they pass by along their journey more than a hundred miles up the road to the campsite?

Come on! It's a little late to be protecting yourself AFTER the fact, now isn't it? STILL not buying this 'feminine products' story as truthful. NONE uv it!

Juliet said...

Jessica's sister's comments, and some pertinent unanswered questions:

Mariah Lyn Mitchell So when they made my sister and fiancé leave camp why did they still smell his sent!?!? Everyone in this town seems to know actually what happened when they didn't step foot on the camp site
Like · 13 · 31 July at 21:59

Mariah Lyn Mitchell I don't think they have ruled the reservoir out either. I have been up there every weekend so until you know the story you should do less of the pointing the fingers. Also he was seen at the gas station in Leadore on camera!
Like · 8 · 31 July at 22:09


Mariah Lyn Mitchell I'm handling perfectly fine I'm tell you the facts!
Like · 4 · 31 July at 22:26

Mariah Lyn Mitchell Did you not read that we watched the camera at the gas station. I'm just saying you guys are hurting the family more then you think. And thank you Tina
Like · 3 · 31 July at 22:41


Michaela Peña Mariah Lyn Mitchell she's been in recently. A lot of people have seen her comments on here. Why did she delete her Facebook?
Like · 1 · Yesterday at 01:33


Mariah Lyn Mitchell I wish as this little boys aunt that people would do less of the pointing fingers and more spending the word and looking for him but welcome to Idaho Falls! I love you Deorr. We all miss you so much and hope you make it home safe!!!

Kelly Walters Hayes Everyone has been praying for this toddlers safe return since day one, whether they believe what happened or not.
Like · 13 · 31 July at 22:12

Mariah Lyn Mitchell Sure sounds like it.
Like · 1 · 31 July at 22:13

Kelly Walters Hayes And it's your choice to see just the negative.
Like · 12 · 31 July at 22:17

Mariah Lyn Mitchell Ohhhh everybody that has been there for us knows how thankful my family is for them. We just tell you guys the facts to squash the rumors! But thank you for turning this post around
Like · 3 · 31 July at 22:29


Mariah Lyn Mitchell Am I creating drama no I'm stating the facts and squashing the roomers. And we are out looking for him thank you
Like · 5 · 31 July at 23:10 · Edited

Asia Payne Hi Mariah Lyn Mitchell In an effort to put rumors to rest, would be able to tell people when the last time someone saw your nephew (other than the adults that took him camping) was? There are so many rumors floating around about something happening to him prior to July 10th and him not actually being on the camping trip. Had you seen him recently?
Like · 11 · 31 July at 23:48

Asia Payne That's really hopeful news that they've got him on camera at the store Was it at the time that he was there with his parents earlier in the day, or was it the 6:00 sighting with a possible abductor? If it was the 6:00 sighting, have they released a description of the person he was with and the vehicle? That means they can issue an Amber Alert right??
Like · 12 · Yesterday at 00:29 · Edited

Juliet said...

Also of interest - there are hundreds of comments but this is the point at which, I believe, the grandma decided to begin to respond to questions:

Kristen Garner Something does not add up with this. I know they say the parents aren't the suspects. But have they even questioned the grandpa?? That the boy was supposed to be with at the time?
Like · Reply · 3 · 31 July at 21:55 · Edited

Trina Bates Clegg My father is 76 and on oxygen 24 hours and not in good health. Don't ever say anything about my Dad unless you got facts. He is very cooperative and has done is pologragh.
Like · 2 · 31 July at 22:23 · Edited

Kristen Garner I wasn't saying it was him!! I ain't pointing fingers just wondering!

Juliet said...

Also, some more recent comments, (grandma is on-line responding as I post this):


Jessie Morrison Any new updates since the fbi came in?
Like · 4 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Unfortunately no
Like · 2 · 4 hrs

Lynda Trina Bates Clegg...did your daughter pass her poly?
Like · 53 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Yes!!! As I have been informed
Like · 1 · 42 mins · Edited


Amy Goodyear Did Deorr kunz Sr pass his polygraph test?
Like · 16 mins


Trina Bates Clegg I don't know why they aren't releasing the polygraph tests to the public. I would just say things have been VERY QUITE since the FBI arrived
Like · 3 mins
-------

Anonymous said...

Passing a poly? As in "Do You Know What Happened To Deorr?" Answer: Yes.

Anonymous said...

Okay, so Trina avoids answering whether the child's Dad passed the polygraph. And, he is not legally Deorr, Sr. so her answer could be meaningless anyway. Likewise, Trina has more than one daughter, so the question should be "Did your daughter Jessica pass the polygraph?" Semantics, I know, but they could have each taken more than one polygraph.

Anonymous said...

Body will be found and arrests made in this case.

Anonymous said...

Let's hopen it's soon.

Juliet said...

DeOtt Sr of grandpa: 'Immediately, shock' .

This has niggled me since the interview. I suspect the grandpa was already in shock, but for reasons as yet unknown.

'Since this my father has been very upset and emotionally struggling. ' - grandma Clegg.

Trina Bates Clegg Baby DeOrr wanted to "stay with grandpa". My Dad seen him playing in the dirt and then he said he looked over and he was gone so he thought Baby DeOrr had walked to his parents. When DeOrr Sr. came to get him my father was in shock.
Like · 6 · 9 hrs · Edited

Isaac Reinwand was very interested as to whether the reporter, Nate Eaton, had spoken to the grandfather yet. Grandpa knows something, but has been made to not know?

It would be expected that all the family would be upset and emotionally struggling after a short time had passed, but if grandpa is, and was, in such a state right from the moment DeOrr apparently went missing, why? In the early stages they would have been worried, but also had great hope that DeOrr would soon be found by search and rescue, and could not have wandered very far. Grandpa would know that DeOrr could not have been abducted from a very short distance away within a four minute time frame, that an abductor would need a vehicle, and they would have been aware of the presence of a vehicle or another person. DeOrr Sr claimed the area was so open that they couldn't not see DeOrr, as peculiarly, he watched him till he figured he was gone.

In my opinion, Grandpa was alreadyin a state of shock and deep distress, before DeOrr is claimed to have disappeared.

--
First, Grandma Clegg disposed of DeOrr's diaper. A little further along it becomes diapers. This could be a typo, but why would she concern herself with disposing of possible evidence, one or more diapers which could possibly help establish if he had been there, when, as she says, there were church volunteers around, who would be going to take out the water bottles and other refreshment related stuff to the bin, anyway? Something odd around that, and the need to bring feminine products into the story. Also, grandma says 'approximately' and 'about' whilst giving exact times, which is what DeOrr and Jessica did in the interview. Is she doing that because that's how they normally speak about times (I'll meet you at approximately 2.28, or 'let's meet up about 3.38') - unlikely. So, why is she doing that - is to make DeOrr and Jessica's interview seem somehow less odd, perhaps?

Juliet said...

It may be true that the last time grandpa saw him, DeOrr was playing in the dirt (or possibly laying in the dirt?)' after which he just vanished - but was it at that campsite? The dogs didn't seem too convinced.

The Reuters report, which I would take as most likely to be reliable, has it that the parents told authorities they arrived on the Friday, 10th July. Grandma Clegg says different, Thursday 9.30pm. DeOrr Sr with filthy bawling little boy 'matching our description of our son' admits he was in the store, 'it was me', but not at six. When they said it was earlier, did they actually mean it was an earlier day, not earlier on the same day, yet did not give sufficient clarification because the sighting messed up their stated day of arrival?

lynda said...

Anonymous said...
Okay, so Trina avoids answering whether the child's Dad passed the polygraph. And, he is not legally Deorr, Sr. so her answer could be meaningless anyway. Likewise, Trina has more than one daughter, so the question should be "Did your daughter Jessica pass the p.olygraph?" Semantics, I know, but they could have each taken more than one polygraph..


Grrrr...I asked just ONE question and I STILL did it wrong! lol. But you are right, I should have said Jessica.

Trina Clegg is NOT friends with Daddy Deorr on FB which is odd. Everyone is getting excited that she is posting on FB and she is clearing some things up (EMT bag, when they got to campground, etc) but she still is not receiving first hand info. When responding to if she passed poly she states "YES, as I was told." Wellllllll, that's a NO then because you were told that. By whom? Daughter? LE? neighbor?

Anonymous said...

Which FB page is Trina posting on?

Juliet said...

Anon - Trina BC is posting on KIFI Local News 8 Facebook - you need to dig deep to find the comments as they are buried as responses to other people's comments.

Lynda - I think you did good - you got a response. :)

Juliet said...

Anon - to be more helpful. Comments are on the DeOrr story a bit down the page. Keep loading comments until you find one from a Kristen Garner with now in excess of toe hundred replies - grandma is commenting within that set of replies. She is on-line again now, has just replied to another question - I'll leave this for now though, in case Lynda wants to post on the latest. :)

Amanda said...

If Issac Reinwand was fishing at the time even 40 yrds away from the area Deorr went missing it is even more alarming to me that when asked what happened up there? he is asserting what happened instead of saying I don't know what happened up there I wasn't at the campsite or I was fishing when he went missing. Again "he disappeared" were his words that he gave from his brain for some reason when asked what happened up there. Why? Is he telling what happened? He disappeared how?
I also ask why the eqivoactions if he wasn't even there? I wasn't there I was fishing sounds specific. I was informed. Far as I know and is all shows a lack of specificity and calls into question whether what else he says is accurate or complete. He is giving only one specific scenerio to what happened, he disappeared is all yet weakining it with far as I know. Even understanding he was very close if he was at the creek and may have been included in the picture of the overall camping area it is unclear what happened it doesn't compute to settle on he simply disappeared.

Anonymous said...

Just posted on KIFI FB poge:

Crystal Douglas Trina, thank you for the posting you have been doing. People are starting to discuss an incident this afternoon at the Leodore store with the Backward Speech guy and Jessica and Deorr? I truly hope everything is OK. This circus is getting disturbing to those of us in east Idaho who only want Deorr Jr. found.

Trina Bates Clegg Crystal Douglas the cops were called about the incident

Anonymous said...

Janeille Braswell Have family members considered hiring legal representation to defend themselves against the harassment & get a professional opinion of the course of the investigation?
33 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Janeille Braswell not at this time.

Juliet said...

While the dogs did not (I don't think) pick up DeOrr's trail on the mountain, it does seem from various comments by family that he may have been up the mountain at some point. DeOrr Sr saying it was his belief that DeOrr was not up the mountain ANYMORE. Grandad Kunz, if DeOrr was up there, someone must have carried him up there. Various references to what happened up there (I don't have them, just have noticed some along the way). DeOrr Sr had been up around the mountain in the truck, and expressed concern that anyone up there would have had a view of what was happening below (where was Isaac and what did he see? There seems some disconcern that he wasn't where they thought he was?) I wonder if DeOrr had been carried up the mountain, a scent would be detectable, or if he would have needed to be on the ground. Wondering if a dead DeOrr was hidden up there - but then, he would surely have been found by now, one way or another, with the cadaver dogs at work. It's all so strange. No searchers there excepting family, this weekend, so grandma has posted a little time ago - so LE maybe don't think he could be up there, or if he is, won't search again unless they have specific info as to where he is, but I think, with a missing child, they would just keeping looking in the expectation of finding a body, for longer - that's how it works here, anyway. Maybe they are still looking, but somewhere else. He surely can't be up there and still not found. I wondered if something happened to him up there, and they brought him down and have hidden him somewhere else, but the dogs would have picked up that he had been there. There is so much missing time, possibly even days he was unaccounted for before the trip, and dad a truck driver - if the parents are covering up a death, DeOrr could be anywhere. The family are not volunteering when they last saw DeOrr - grandpa Kunz would likely be the last, as the family have been living with him. So far, he's also not said when last he saw DeOrr, though perhaps he has given that information in his media interviews, and it maybe just hasn't been published.

I wonder about the parents recent short statement, too, praying that their little man will be found soon. It's hardly worth saying, as people would assume and expect no less. Can that really be all they said? Also, 'Little man' may be a term they use, but why not also say his name?

For all the doubts, I still find it hard to watch DeOrr Sr's interview and be able to believe he has harmed his child, and that it could all be some desperate act. I think they both love their child, and from Jessica's photos, it is evident that DeOrr adored her - too few photos of him with DeOrr Sr to pick up much about their relationship, Whatever though, their love for him would still come through, along with their upset at losing him, either in life, or in death. I don't know what actually I am looking at, only what I'm meant to think I am looking at. The interview might really be showing the desperation of loving parents trying to cover up an accidental death, but why would they go to such lengths, and need to cover up an accident? Perhaps if the circumstances would show them to have been negligent? If it turns out that they have harmed him, I will want the world to stop so that I can get off, at least for a little while. I don't even know them - God only knows what it must be like for their family.

--

To put it mildly, I find the reverse speech guy and his art, to be dark, menacing, maniacal, monstrous and cruel, It is crazy to make those accusations, and to have no self-doubt. He is telling people what to hear - only the most gullible, and those who want to hear what he has decided they should hear might possibly hear something. His site sends shivers down my spine, it's more than a bit dark, IMO.

End of ramble.


Juliet said...

Okay, was holding off on doing this in case Lynda or anyone else watching the Facebook wanted to, but I can't resist, as even I can see that there is no reliable denial going on here with regards to the letter, so here goes:



Jamie Rancatore Smith Have the FBI given Jessica and DeOrr a plan of action? Extending the search or what the next step will be.
1 hr

Trina Bates Clegg Jamie Rancatore Smith they are not giving us any information it very heartbreaking
12 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Kati Rose nothing from Randy Christensen
12 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Randy did accept
11 mins

Crystal Douglas Trina, thank you for the posting you have been doing. People are starting to discuss an incident this afternoon at the Leodore store with the Backward Speech guy and Jessica and Deorr? I truly hope everything is OK. This circus is getting disturbing to those of us in east Idaho who only want Deorr Jr. found.
10 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Crystal Douglas the cops were called about the incident
1 · 9 mins

Janeille Braswell Have family members considered hiring legal representation to defend themselves against the harassment & get a professional opinion of the course of the investigation?
10 mins

Trina Bates Clegg Janeille Braswell not at this time.
6 mins

Asia Payne Good evening Trina Bates Clegg, I was so hoping there would be new developments in the search over the weekend, so sad there hasn't been any....
6 mins

Trina Bates Clegg We seen NO ONE searching this weekend but family
1 min

Steffi Johnson Hi Trina, just repeating Amy Woodyear question. Did Deorr kunz Sr pass his polygraph test, too?
1 hr

Trina Bates Clegg Steffi Johnson I understand yes. Since the FBI got here isn't been very quite
1 ·

Asia Payne Trina Bates Clegg - was it a friend of yours who wrote the very detailed letter/email to Kellan shortly after DeOrr went missing? Do you know how they got his information and why they chose to send all of that information about your family to him?

Trina Bates Clegg Asia Payne I don't have but two friends that I speak to. One moved back from Montana and the other lives here. I don't speak that way about my daughter period!!!!
2 · 1 hr

Asia Payne That's so strange.....When Kellen posted that letter online, people got tons of information to speculate about and look into. That was the first time anyone saw Isaac named as the individual with them that weekend. Many of us were really confused as to why a close friend of yours would send such detailed personal information to someone they didn't know....Most of us hadn't ever heard of Kellen until then. Who could possibly have sent all of that information to him???

Sus said...

Dogs are trained to pick up a trail through the scent. When they can't pick up a trail, they return to the original point...in this case the campsite.

They are not saying Little Deorr was not there. They are saying they can not pick up his scent to follow a trail to him out of the campsite.

This can be for several reasons. He was taken out by vehicle. His scent was somehow masked. Remember how the NY escapees used common pepper? It does the trick. Some dogs aren't trained for big animals, and they return to the starting point. And dogs and handlers aren't perfect. The tracking dogs in the Sierra Lamarr case only followed her scent to the end of her drive. LE swore that's where she was picked up. Nope, come to find out she walked right down the road to her bus stop.

Frankly, if I were these parents, and really innocent, I'd hire my own tracker at this point.

lynda said...

I don't even understand her answer regarding Daddy passing his poly. Wow...talk about not directly answering. As for her statement that they haven't seen anyone searching today AT ALL BUt FAMILY...we know that's not true because the backwards speech guy obviously was!

Juliet said...

Sus - do you know if DeOrr would've had to have been there, or if the dogs could be misled by the scent from the used diaper, or even some of his clothing or blanket set on the ground? I don't know how it works, if he would have had to have been there, or if something he had worn or had his scent on would have the same effect on the dogs.

Sus said...

Juliet,
I understood the dogs were simply looking for a trail out of the campsite, not determining if Little Deorr was ever at the camp. The dogs would use something that had his scent. Him being at the camp would have to be determined some other way.

Also, cadaver dogs are different. They are not following a trail. They find remains, or what is released at death.

Juliet said...

Oh, I see what you mean, Sus - there was no trail, though they would get the scent from one of his items - then weren't able to find a trail which matched his scent. So he didn't necessarily have to be there, though also might have been, at the site.

Juliet said...

Sorry, cross-posted. Thanks.

Juliet said...

Lynda, or anyone who knows - what was the incident at the store with the backward speech guy and Jessica and DeOrr?

Sus said...

The grandmother's answers were a bit sensitive about the polygraphs, but I think they passed. Let me tell you why.

She had to answer by "what I understand" or "I'm informed" or such because she IS only relying on what her daughter and Deorr sr are telling her.

The "from what I understand" about Deorr sr is interesting. I keep wondering if there were parts that were inconclusive.

I have read in the past some comments that they passed, one from someone who heard it from search and rescue. ( so albeit pretty second hand.)

They haven't lawyered up. They're doing what the sheriff asks (keeping quiet). They are cooperating with searches of their home and vehicles. Except for a few comments, they seem to have no need to fight for their innocence with the onslaught on SM.

The grandmother constantly mentions how quiet it is since the FBI entered. That's par for the course. They do not release polygraphs, passed or not. I imagine the sheriff was in contact with them and is following their lead.

This is all just my guess based on observation. They might arrest the parents tomorrow for all I know. They certainly should be looking at them since the sheriff says Little Deorr is not in water, the forest, wasn't carried off by an animal, and wasn't kidnapped. But my real guess is they're looking at Isaac R.

Sus said...

Juliet,
The crazy backwards speech guy has gone to Leadore to search for Little Deorr. He is spurred on by his crazy followers, and guess what! He has a psychic helping him now. :-) He was in the store and in walked Deorr sr and Jessica. What cracked me up was that he wondered why they were there! Uh, because they search with family for their son everyday! Someone called police. Good. He is so out of line.

Oh, and he is going to try and meet with the FBI while he's in town because, you know, they should listen to him.

Can you say...NARCISSIST??

Juliet said...

Sus - wow, craziness much. Thanks for the info. Tina's posts have all disappeared from the news site. I hope she doesn't feel endangered on account of the letter she doesn't quite deny writing. :-/

Juliet said...

I meant Trina - my auto correct doesn't believe there is such a name. Her FB is still up, but all the comments have disappeared from the news site - I reckon that letter is dangerous ground for her.

leep said...

Juliet
I find it very interesting that the letter questions the one that's finally scared her off.

ima.grandma said...

Juliet said
To put it mildly, I find the reverse speech guy and his art, to be dark, menacing, maniacal, monstrous and cruel, It is crazy to make those accusations, and to have no self-doubt. He is telling people what to hear - only the most gullible, and those who want to hear what he has decided they should hear might possibly hear something. His site sends shivers down my spine, it's more than a bit dark, IMO.

Ditto! This guy is self-anointed looney toons!

I appreciate the contributions of Sus, Juliet and Lynda in providing this most recent information. I can't continue searching for updates and will rely on blog members' efforts to seek information. It's my way to lessen the intensity I feel. When I realized we hit the three week mark, my heart sunk. I fear the worst has happened and baby Deorr is not retrieveable. Perhaps I have become a bit more cynical but so many of these missing children cases are playing out with a similar outcome. I am purposely beginning to emotionally distance myself on this one. Self-protection of the heart...

Juliet said...

Ima.grandma - it's unlikely there will be much more real news on this now that the FBI is investigating, not until or unless there are arrests. For many days the family has been very quiet excepting Trina Bates Clegg and her daughter, Mariah, on that FB thread. Backward speech maniac will no doubt continue giving updates on his latest provocations towards the family, and be amazed and bemused as to why they might be even a little upset by his scurrilous accusations being presented to the online world as 'facts'. I'll keep an eye out and post anything I find on this same thread, though, unless there's a newer post on DeOrr by then.

Yes, poor baby, I've been thinking the likelihood of him being found alive has been remote since a couple of days in. Abduction seems so unlikely, and the account so confused and questionable - but stranger things have happened. Jaycee Duggard, with her family coming under suspicion when they were not in any way involved; Natascha Kampusch - her mother also was under suspicion, I believe may still be held under suspicion in some quarters, as having colluded with the kidnapper, and having an existing connection to him.

Anonymous said...

That backwards speech guy is a complete joke. He posted reverse stuff about mace being somehow involved on his FB page. Then, in the next thread he showed a blurry closeup of Deorr Sr's dad wearing something on his belt that he alleged was mace (so he must've been involved!!), which supposedly corroborated the previous analysis. That was supposedly BOMBSHELL news. Then people (from a FB group about Deorr I belong to) sent him pictures of the supposed mace -- but it was a really a cell phone case. He immediately said that was not it, deleted pictures of it and stuck by the mace story. But the cell phone case design matched up to the "mace" exactly!! That guy is completely sketchy and not credible.

Anonymous said...

Backward Speech guy update. Interesting whether you are a believer or not:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1612773825676974&id=1568196156801408

Anonymous said...

I think the only reason LE was "interested" in talking to the Reverse Speech guy is because he is a nut and they want to make sure he isn't involved in Deorr's disappearance.

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg Kat Krueger I haven't just vanished!!!!!!!! I worked very early!!!! I stopped answering questions after I was informed everyone was forwarding our conversation to Kellen instead of being honest and him asking me questions. To be 100% honest I was trying to clear up things to help get the story straight.

Anonymous said...

I was also interested in how trina Clegg edited her answer on FB when asked if her daughter passed the poly. She first stated "YES!!!" With the 3 exclamation points, then edited to add, that I've been told or informed. So either someone said to her "hey you can't say Yes since you really don't know, or she realized she shouldn't say that herself and edited the statement to reflect that it is second hand information.
There was also a question posed to her - Why are you not friends with Deorr on FB? She answered that she was, it's just not showing up because they deactivated their accounts.
THAT was a bold faced lie. Mommy's account is deactivated, Deorr's is NOT (at least as of yesterday) and about 2 days after baby went missing, I checked trina's FB page myself and she was NOT friends with Daddy. So can one assume that that is sensitive? That she does not want the public to know that there was and is trouble between her and Daddy? Does she suspect daddy but not her daughter? It was such a bold lie, easily checkable, what does that mean as far as SA? When people tell lies that they know can be proven as lies fairly easily, what does that mean in SA?

Anonymous said...

Why are family members saying they have seen him in video in Leadore, when the store employees told reporters that they don't have cameras that record?

Anonymous said...

"Trina Bates Clegg Kat Krueger I haven't just vanished!!!!!!!! I worked very early!!!! I stopped answering questions after I was informed everyone was forwarding our conversation to Kellen" Gee, Trina, you post on a public forum and then get upset when people read it? You also suggest that people "just come and search," but then get object when they do?

Anonymous said...

Trina sure likes exclamation points.

Anonymous said...

Trina Bates Clegg: "To be 100% honest I was trying to clear up things to help get the story straight."

As Peter has often said, "100% honest" is sensitive. And again, most of what she says is what others (i.e. Mom and Dad) have told her.

John Mc Gowan said...

Can someone help me out here?

That reverse speech guy malarky has posted a response to the question.

Lynda Shepherd Kuehn: "Health insurance and life insurance are completely different. Did he really say health insurance instead of life insurance"?
Like · Reply · 1 · 59 mins

Backward Speech: He goes I didn't have any vul life and stumbled over it. Than he goes I don't have any health insurance.
Like · 1 · 58 mins

Where about in Deorr SRs statement was this allegedly said?.

Have i missed something?
My heads all over the place trying to understand his Pseudo mumbo jumbo!

John Mc Gowan said...

Link^^

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Backward-Speech/1568196156801408?fref=nf

Anonymous said...

VUL = Variable Universal Life [insurance]

John Mc Gowan said...

My apologies. He comes to this conclusion by using his mumbo jumbo.

"Lastly, the most interesting thing with my encounter with DeOrr was that the he only cared about the reversal dealing with the life insurance and wanted me to know that he has no health insurance. Why of all reversals was this the one that bothered him? Because it's true!"


What is interesting in his statement is this.

There are trolls and people who want details to pass along to the family and friends and to simply gossip about. I figured this would happen anyway at some point. But I don't know who I can trust etc. So, unless you've been working with me from day one, I will not give any more information.

Do to talking with police yesterday.I am going to continue to pursue this case hard and push everything I've got to them. I will be pushing hard to get public attention and the media."

Oops.

Marbles leaking me thinks :)

John Mc Gowan said...

Anonymous said...
VUL = Variable Universal Life [insurance]


Thank you.

Sus said...

I have no idea why people say Trina Bates Clegg is not friends with Deorr Kunz. She is and has been from the beginning of this case. I checked it out. I saw she was just last night still. She said they were "going to deactivate their accounts." He has not yet. Jessica has.

Juliet said...

Well, Trina may not have vanished, which is good, but all her earlier posts on that page are still missing! Her latest comment is probably true, in that she went off-line and deleted all the posts in an attempt to have a think/consult in order to get 'the story' straight before returning, and possibly having another go. It will be interesting to see if she will be willing to answer more questions.

Anonymous said...

If I recall, there was an aunt who was answering questions for a while, then Trina, and sometimes Jessica's sister and Jessica's ex. Of course, none of these folks were there when baby Deorr "vanished." I believe that Trina means well, but her responses are just raising more questions. I really really hope that the FBI gets to the bottom of this.

As for the life insurance angle, a search of the Idaho Court Repository reveals that many members of the [extended] family have judgments against them for unpaid debts of one type or another. In fact, one was just filed against Jessica (under the name Jessica Mitchell Birch) on July 6, four days before Deorr disappeared. This may be why Dad is so sensitive on the subject.

Juliet said...

Anon at 10.51 - DeOrr Sr was on Trina's friend list the fist time I looked at her page, very early on in the case. I think because he changed his profile pic from one of him with a truck to one of baby DeOrr, some may not have recognised it was his page and assumed it was one of the FB groups for finding DeOrr Jr.

Anonymous said...

I don't put a lot of stock into who is friends with whom on Facebook. If Trina is friends with Jessica, she may not have felt it necessary to also be friends with Deorr Sr. (aka Vernal). Also, some folks have more than one Facebook identity.

Anonymous said...


Don't know if this is significant, but Trina first says diaper (singular), and then diapers (plural):

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204696389426478&set=p.10204696389426478&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204696390906515&set=p.10204696390906515&type=1&theater

Anonymous said...

Hmmm. Trina arrives "about 448 pm" Friday afternoon. The 911 call was at 2:38 pm. Trina lives about 2.5 hours from campground. Did Jessica call her first?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204696390226498&set=p.10204696390226498&type=1&theater

Anonymous said...

Uh huh...! Good question Anon @12:49!!

Damn. Trina must have been flying up the road almost as fast as Teresa Neves was when she made it up to Ron's MH within 10-15 mins after little Haleigh Cummings was reported missing, although skank Teresa lived 90 mins away in another county and claimed to be sleeping when she got the call that Haleigh was missing. This Trina chick was already dressed and ready to fly? I doubt it.

Yeah. Right. Even the eagle can't fly this fast. This lyin' Hussy Teresa was parked just up the road and around the corner on a side road in her little red truck WAITIMG for LE to arrive at Ron's MH then suddenly appears in his driveway. She didn't even bother to deny later that this was her truck.

This is just ONE of the reasons I continue to hate seeing Misty taking the full blame for Haleighs disappearance when it was OBVIOUS that she was NOt the last one to see Haleigh, even though she lied like a sieve; so did Mother Teresa, slick Ronnie, Whale Annette and whoever ELSE it was in that trailer having been there for hours hauling out all their incriminating evidence prior to obviously trapped Misty making her lyin' call to LE at 3:27 am,.,reporting Haleigh missing; when Haliegh had already BEEN reported missing at 2:13 a.m. Dang. ONLY Misty's lies were honed in on.

Families like these are thinker than flies on syrup. Don't expect this to change anytime soon. But the Cummings and their relatives got lucky; they had a sheriff buddy who was willing to (and did) cover up for them.

Even the FBI didn't really investigate anything either after they found Ron's illegal gun stash dumped in a nearby retaining lake. Nah... never heard another word about it after they fished out lucky Ronnie boys guns. Maybe this bunch won't be so lucky. I hope not.

Juliet said...

The backward speech guy is making a lot of mileage out of what, reading between the lines, would seem to be a deputy diplomatically humouring him for a few minutes while he tried to diffuse a sticky situation in the store. :) His followers seem to think he had the ear of the FBI, but I don't see where he says that, or when the FBI began to be described as mere 'police'. If he'd spoken to the FBI, he wouldn't be able to resist publishing that fact. And if hobbling round the area for a few hours with a badly sprained ankle was somehow assisting in the search for DeOrr, well, good for him, but he's already driving back, and all that distance? Seems like a publicity stunt, to me - about as much use as a chocolate teapot, needing to go to the hospital for what he thought was a broken ankle before even attempting to search. What a Blarney Stone kisser. He says the family said they wanted to fight him - was that in the physical or legal sense? He doesn't specify. His followers want to know why the family were in the store, as though they were there for his benefit, rather than because they just were there anyway, continuing with their search, or monitoring it, or whatever it is they are doing up there, whilst insisting DeOrr has been abducted.
Such weirdness, all.

Juliet said...

I wouldn't trust the backward speech guy further than I could throw him - twisting words being his business, and all. :)

Juliet said...

In the interview, the parents were very concerned not to have things twisted - one can hardly blame them for being at least a bit sensitive about being accused of murder, and now apparently also of having done indescribable things to their son, courtesy of the psychic side-kick. Then the guy putting all that on the web shows up, all confrontational by virtue of his presence, and right in their faces. Innocent or guilty, why would anyone expect them not to react, or find their reaction an indication of guilt, rather than of utter outrage at this publicity-seeking overbearing idiot, all set on rigging a confrontation to fuel his web-site hit and followers, when their baby is gone, and probably or definitely dead, and whether they have guilty knowledge of that, or not? Does he live in some fantasy reality world, where people are just objects to him, or what?

Anonymous said...

This was just posted on the backward speech guy's website:

"DeOrr Kunz Actually I did I said if you can help please do and thanked you for makeing the drive then you asked if I knew how far it was 16 hours there was no hostility as we spoke I thought it would be fine you helping we have asked for help by every resource aside military. We requested For lemhi county to get FBI and other resources. And Id be more then happy to sit and speak with you if it helps our son"

Dad continues to write (and speak) in run on sentences.

Rose City, Oregon said...

There is the possibility that Kellen himself wrote the letter. Actually, that would not surprise me at all. Think about it. What a great way to advance his nefarious agenda and gain publicity.

Juliet said...

Anon at 12.49 and Anon at 1.46 - has the mileage/time from grandma's home area to the campsite been accurately calculated, would you know, or is that just a rough estimate? It wouldn't look too good if Jessica had taken time out to call her mother before reporting DeOrr missing. Interestingly, in the interview, some of Jessica's few words are about how her mother came straight away, as soon as she got the call - so maybe her time of arrival was already causing questions from LE. They will have all the phone activity under scrutiny by now. So, first she texts her mother about female products,then she goes exploring whilst setting up camp, next she calls her mother to say DeOrr is missing, then, after he's been missing for a whole hour, she finally calls the police. It's always good to have one's priorities in the right order.

Rose City, Oregon said...

Thrre is NO WAY local law enforcement would be sharing details of the case with this snake oil salesman! But, of course he has to come up with a "story" to explain why he didn't find DeOrr after claiming that his pseudoscience, "reverse speech" is "always 100%." There is also the fact that he solicited $2500 from his group of rabid followers to finance his trip to Idaho. For those of you who are actually subscribing to to this con artist's bs, I have a piece of swamp land in Florida I will sell you.....

John Mc Gowan said...

From backward guys fb.

Anon @August 3, 2015 at 3:00 PM,

Hi,

your post looks like it has been replaced by this.

DeOrr Kunz I am the father and I did welcome his help and thank him for comeing and if can help to please do no anger I just wanted wanted to talk to him no one has even tried to speak with me personally I found that abit one sided but I'm not against any help to find my son we have called in any and every resource for help that lemhi county would agree on including FBI we requested them
Like · 1 · 3 mins


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Backward-Speech/1568196156801408?fref=nf

Juliet said...

Anon at 3.00 - I can't find DeOrr's post, is it still there or has it been deleted by that great freedom of speech lover from his page as negative and unwelcome comment? He's the victim in all this, after all, poor soul, broken ankle, and all. I checked his Facebook and the website, no luck. It would be good if anyone who finds interesting posts from the family would save and post them, as they are so difficult to find, or to find again after moving off the pages. I'll keep looking. :)

John Mc Gowan said...

Juliet,

Hi

He has deleted it, backward guy that is.

Misty Dodge-Bennett Deorr Kunz then why haven't you guys been willing to interview with him or anyone else since your son went missing? If you thought he could help why not just comply if that makes any sense?
Like · 2 · 22 mins

Backward Speech Misty I removed his posts. I'm glad he has so much time to worry about what I'm doing. We were the ones that asked him to sit down and talk as to which he refused saying we would make him look bad. Now all of sudden he wants our help. He's scared and he wants us just to
Like · 1 · 16 mins · Edited

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Backward-Speech/1568196156801408?fref=nf

John Mc Gowan said...

And now allegations of threats?


Kara Rowbury This whole situation was bizarre. And now I am being threatened through facebook. Today I'm worried about my safety and these people are dangerous. I'll put this out there if I go missing when you leave today Kellen everyone that's reading this you know who took me and please find me. Lol it's not funny but this family is very angry at Kellen myself and Bryant for being up there searching
Like · Reply · 5 · 3 hrs

Kimberly Ohannesian I have been threatened too through FB and my family knows this too.
Like · 2 hrs · Edited

Kara Rowbury We all need to file reports with the police. I'm going to today so they have it
Like · 6 · 2 hrs

Kimberly Ohannesian I have and called them. And I don't even live in Idaho!!!!!!
Like · 1 · 1 hr

Darlene Morris Yikes Kara I hope you reported this. Let him build a case against himself.
Like · 1 hr

Kara Rowbury Ya there not helping themselves right now
Like · 1 hr

JoEllen Blosch Smith So they're threatening people trying to help them find their little boy. Definitely does not look good for them
Like · 58 mins

Kara Rowbury Yes and it scares me. They can figure out where I live and everything
Like · 1 · 54 mins

JoEllen Blosch Smith Definitely let the police know
Like · 53 mins

Kara Rowbury Yes I'm going up there today

Juliet said...

Thanks, John

What a ba*tard, no right of reply to the father of the missing child he has taken it upon himself to maliciously pursue. It's him who is afraid to allow DeOrr to give his version of events! This illustrates the type of person he is - controlling, bullying, always right. They'll probably all be falling over themselves now, in support of his defensively stupid decision to delete. Plonkers. The fist time DeOrr has broken his silence, and the best thing he can think to do is delete him. #moronsoffacebook #sheeplesoffacebook Meh.

Yes, I wonder what the threats were, please leave us alone, or we'll call the police AND be forced to post Disney links all over your Facebook.

:)
Reverse speech guy -
Stupid is as stupid does.

LE -
Softly, softly, catchee monkey.

Juliet said...

Comply? Asks Misty of DeOrr, why not just comply? Why should anyone feel compelled to comply with an egotistical maniac who is making the most serious allegations against them on social media at the worst time of their lives; that would presumably be for general entertainment purposes, along with his hypnotism and the rest of the comedy act. That guy has one sick sense of humour, and his followers have insufficiently active brain cells. It's a sad old world. :-/

lynda said...

Is it just me or when you reverse anyone's speech, isn't the same word backwords universally? As long as people are saying the word correctly forward..wouldn't it sound the same backwords for everyone? Maybe I'm missing something

At least Daddy's posts are not filled with uhhhhh...huh...i..we..him..no wait, duhhhhh. His changing subjects and not finishing sentences when he speaks is maddening.

Anonymous said...

re: Backward (or Forward) speech:
Listening to speech (as opposed to reading its words) is valuable, in that you pick up pauses, pronunciations, inflections, etc. Here's an example that I remember from school:

Woman (pause), without her man (pause), is lost.
Woman (pause): Without her(pause), man is lost.

Say them both aloud, and they have opposite meanings.

lynda said...

Anon...Yes, I get that punctuation alters the meaning of a sentence but what I'm trying to say is, if I said, "I went to the bank." Then YOU said, "I went to the bank." We both say it the same way FORWARD...wouldn't it sound the same way backwards for both of us?? I guess I'm just not understanding this reverse speech thing..aside from when I was young and everyone was talking about the Beatle Album played in reverse said "Paul is dead" Remember that? ha.

John- That is so glaringly obvious now that you pointed it out that reverse speech guy said that about keeping in the public. LOVE THAT! Caught! It's unbelievable to me that the guy drove 16 hours to go there, search for a time, then come right back.

lynda said...

John or anyone...does SA have a place when you see the written (or typed) word of a person? What I'm getting at is that John, in what you posted of Daddy and reverse speech guy, Daddy used absolutely no punctuation. Just one long run on sentence that was hard to read correctly because of lack of punctuation.

Anonymous said...

See this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_speech

Anonymous said...

When people post to Facebook or other social media, we don't know if they are typing the words themselves, dictating to someone who is, or using voice recognition software. Some writers fall into "text message speak" even when there is not a character limit. So it can be hard to analyze.

Anonymous said...

@lynda...see this:

http://backwardspeech.com/f-a-q/

Anonymous said...

Reagrding the divorce -- there was more than one person/anonymous who posted they were never married including at least one who posted it was not in the Idaho court records -- so if you were the one upset about being corrected, I may not have even been referring to you. And if you were, it is true you were spreading false info AFTER the correct info had been posted at least once, so get over yourself. And one post inferred that if they weren't married (which they had been) it was less of a relationship which is BS. Lots of people choose not to marry. I don't want to argue about this but so many people are spreading false info and it would be nice if they took the time to check things out themselves and not add to the crap out there -- at the very least read the previous posts in the thread they post in. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe anyone falls for the backwards speech malarky

Juliet said...

Anon at 8.32 - Probably the same people who are easily hypnotised. I was just listening to backward speech guy's reversals of Jessica and heard quite differently to what he heard. For instance, I heard the word 'kidnap', he didn't. He'd claim that is due to my not being trained, which would also explain why I didn't hear anything else I was 'supposed' to hear. If people do hear words, it's just coincidence, and suggestible people will always be willing to hear what they are told to hear, especially when told by someone who also knows how to hypnotise them.:) Listening to reverse speech is like listening to a baby babbling - now and again parents will be convinced their genius six month old just said that he loved the dog, or wanted piano lessons, depending on how ambitious for him they might be, but it's just coincidence, people look for patterns, and hear what they want to hear. There's a good article about reverse speech in the links in the wiki article John posted, to the Skeptic Inquirer, I think it was. Dangerous stuff, especially when used as the basis to make accusations of murder, as fact. Since when has he been the FBI? Even then, there's always a trial, and not some idiot setting himself up as judge and jury. So idiotic and irresponsible, it's beyond comprehension.

Juliet said...

Lynda - no, two people would not sound the same in reverse even if they spoke the same sentence, because they would speak at different speeds, in differing tone and perhaps accent, and put more stress on one word than another, so it wouldn't sound the same.

Juliet said...

I meant Anon at 8.23 not 8.32 - must be the reverse speech getting to me. :).

--

No more posts from grandma Clegg, so far.
The interwebs have been prematurely deprived of engagement with DeOrr Sr, due to reverse speech guy's cowardice in immediately deleting DeOrr's contradictory but non-threatening posts,- (as posted by others further up here) along with his inability to grasp the concept o basic decency in allowing his much maligned targets the right to reply. Anyone who raises any doubt about the validity of reverse speech, much less his sponsored by suckers antics, is deleted. He's such a reasonable guy, he just can't bear anyone to contradict his warped version of reality.

--

Whoever posited that reverse speech guy might have written the letter from a friend of grandma to himself, not at all likely - how would he have had personal information about the family, or known that Isaac Reinwand was the mystery family friend? It had to have come from someone very close to the situation, and he may not be quite THAT low. Grandma must have felt trapped in the FB conversation, having already given the answer that only the family knew about the camping trip - so how could the friend have known about it, and that Isaac was on it? She also said she had only two friends to whom she speaks, and that neither of them could have written it. More or less, or that's how it came over. She cornered herself, so deleted all the posts. Clever with her questions, that Asia :) - too clever, too soon, though, she probably could have kept it going for longer if she had held off on that question.

Juliet said...

I meant not so low as to write the letter - hope that's obvious whilst doubting that it is. :-/

Anonymous said...

The store is up for sale:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/100-S-Railroad-St-Leadore-ID-83464/2110162487_zpid/

Anonymous said...

TV website falsely reports finding of DeOrr Kunz
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2015/08/04/tv-website-false-report-deorr-kunz/31110089/

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