Saturday, September 12, 2015

DeOrr Family Video: "Tell The Truth"

When a subject says she wants someone to tell the truth, it indicates that the subject thinks someone has lied; hence, the call to "tell the truth." Father: "You hope" is not "I hope" but is distancing language. "You hope for closure" is not something most would "hope" for, but rather a signal that the subject may not believe the child is alive. "that baby" is distancing language. This is not anything expected from a mother though it might from a grandmother who did not have regular contact. We must use caution and be acutely aware of context in our measurement of the expected versus the unexpected. The change from "I" to "we" is also not expected, even in the setting of being seated together, as the pronoun change comes mid-statement. The avoidance of using DeOrr's name is not expected by any family member and is distancing language.

194 comments:

Oakley A said...

YOU hope for him to come home,” "YOU  hope to find him, BUT YOU also hope to have closure. "One way or another, "
Closure came after the but so it's important to him.
How do "you" have closure without him coming home or finding him?  Is closure an expected word that should be introduced at 2 mths? Especially with uncertainty. Would you have closure if he were found dead and you didn't know what had happened, who killed him or how he died?
He is not expressing any concern with how Deorr is.

Angelica said...

Why does the mother always seem to be hiding her left hand under the blanket?
You see her doing it in this video as well as the one where she is seated being interviewed with the father. Is she left-handed? I wonder if there is some kind of wound/scar on her hand she doesn't want seen that may be related to the "disappearance".

Angelica said...

OK, at 1:47 in the video you do get to briefly see her left hand when someone else is showing their baby DeOrr bracelet.
What this shows is that she is not wearing any Find Baby Deorr bracelet on either wrist as well as you can see she is wearing some kind of silver ring on her ring finger on the left hand. Is this an engagement ring? She is the only one not wearing a Find Baby Deorr bracelet. My guess is she is hiding this ring however. Why is she hiding it?

Angelica said...

I think the father, mother, and the grandmother on the right know what happened. But particularly I think that the mother and grandmother are the main players in whatever happened to baby DeOrr. I think the grandma does not like the Dad. She I think was also possessive of baby DeOrr because she almost says "I want my (son back)." I think the grandmother should be looked at closely.

Angelica said...

I think the grandmother did something to baby DeOrr and the Mom and Dad know about it.

Juliet said...

Watching the first interview again, and feeling some disdain at how the 'problem' is that DeOrr drives a black truck:

If the six o clock store sighting was on Friday, and if, as claimed by DeOrr, it was him, then little DeOrr was not missing at six on Friday even though SAR were searching for him. This seems very unlikely.

If the sighting was not on Friday, DeOrr and Jessica were wilfully misleading the interviewer and audience by not saying otherwise, having already confirmed at the start of the interview that this is the day they are talking about.

If the sighting was on Thursday, Trina is incorrect in stating that they arrived at 9.30pm, hours after the sighting, of which DeOrr says 'it was me'. If little DeOrr was in his father's truck, filthy and bawling, at the store in Leadore at six on either the Thursday or the Friday, how is there no trace of him at the campsite?

It would be easier to discount the sighting as mistaken identity, but as DeOrr claims it was him whilst also trying to deny the sighting, and as no-one else has come forward to say it was them rather than DeOrr, that makes it difficult. If little DeOrr was in Leadore on either day, it's unlikely he met with an accident at a different campsite. I think I might have to jettison my most favoured theories and think instead in terms of little DeOrr being at the store and then no more?

If so, what of grandpa's shock and emotional distress? Of grandpa watching little DeOrr playing in the dirt, then no longer seeing him - is grandpa lying?

'The minute I called my mom' - were grandpa and Isaac really on a camping trip, or did Trina bring grandpa along because he lived with her, needs some type of support, and because Jessica, who would normally look out for him, was already at Timber Creek? Was Isaac taken along to help grandpa, or to help them in some way, once whatever happened had happened? What was the 'little business' between grandpa and Isaac?

Is Trina covering for her family, and are grandpa and Isaac only incidental to the story - has grandpa been coerced into saying he saw DeOrr when maybe he didn't? Isaac didn't seem too convinced or committed to saying anything. Is grandpa the fall guy, because he was meant to be watching DeOrr, despite that he apparently didn't know this - everyone will be sympathetic, it wasn't anyone's fault as such, just a terrible misunderstanding?

Really, why would you take your baby camping with Isaac? Did they - or did Trina take him along to look out for grandpa because it was an emergency, and she had no choice but for grandpa to go along? Or just the more people there when LE showed up, the further to spread the blame. Maybe it was grandpa and Isaac and Trina who arrived at 9.30pm., and as they were all there, they decided on the camping trip story, and grandpa and Isaac stayed while Trina went home or elsewhere to return the next day. Trina's ears pricked up on a Facebook when someone suggested there had been five adults at the campsite.

So what really went on between six at the store and the time the 911 call was placed, I wonder? I don't know if I have a horribly over-active imagination or if there is a lot more to DeOrr's disappearance than any of them will ever willingly make known.

Anonymous said...

Oooh- Have you seen "Cape Fear"? Maybe grandma hid underneath the truck or camper on the trip up and then, when no one was looking, emerged and stole THAT baby boy!!!

Anonymous said...

" I don't know if I have a horribly over-active imagination or if there is a lot more to DeOrr's disappearance than any of them will ever willingly make known."

Both

Anonymous said...

Juliet, would you mind expanding on the "little business" between Isaac and grandpa? This is the first I have heard of it. Thanks!

Hey Isaac, people are catching on!

Anonymous said...

Juliet- You should do a timeline. Don't speculate though- for each entry on the timeline provide a quote from a source (either family member or media source). Include a category below for any statements with a time but without a specific date or day reference. Make the timeline a post of it's own- if you have questions or comments, make them in a separate post.

Juliet said...

Anon at 2.00pm - hmm, just as I thought :-/

Anon at 2.05pm - I can't expand on that, but the Sheriff mentioned it in his interview with Nate Eaton here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M

Juliet said...

Anon at 2.16 - is this a ploy to get me off this thread for a while? :) timeline will take ages - it's a good suggestion, though.

Anonymous said...

It's a ploy to get you to stop talking in circles about the timeline ;) it is a sincere suggestion and will probably take less time than endless speculation.

PS said...

Websleuths is good for timelines with links to sources.

Anonymous said...

The problem is with this timeline is the story keeps changing.

Anonymous said...

Show contradictory quotes on the timeline, then. That's kind of the point.

Juliet said...

Okay anon at 2.24 - it will involve numbers though, and as I don't like numbers, it's going to take a fair while. :) I didn't think I was endlessly speculating - sorry about that.

Angelica said...

Juliet,

This is what I am starting to think. If Dad and baby Deorr were spotted at 6 pm, I am going to go with that and say that baby DeOrr did disappear around the time of the camping trip.

What I am starting to wonder is if Dad's little drive up the road to make the call to 911 and the hour delay (and keep in mind we really don't know how long the delay was--it could have been much longer) could be because he passed "that baby" off to grandma who drove away with him in a vehicle and was giving adequate time for the vehicle to leave and get where it needed to go with baby Deorr before the police were called to begin "searching".
Grandma does say in the above video that the campsite is "the last place WE saw him".
Was she there? Why does she use the term "WE"?

I think all Grandpa DeOrr knows is that the 2 said to him "Hey I thought he was with you Grandpa!" And grandpa says "Duh I didn't see where he went".

I think it is unlikely baby DeOrr is still alive, however, he may be.

Grandma's language leads me to believe she was possessive of baby Deorr and felt Daddy was maybe not fit to "raise" him. Maybe Grandma convinced these 2 they were not fit to raise baby DeOrr. Maybe she wanted to dominate the situation and make some money in doing so?
When the Mom said "He WAS wearing...." there is always the possibility that he was changed into different clothes etc to make him less likely to be identified by the public.
Grandma says that she wishes Dad Deorr could have his baby back "so he can raise him". Is there someone else raising baby Deorr? Could the Mom have sold him to someone else?
This is unlikely but then again this is a very bizarre story and something tells me the "truth" of what happened may be equally bizarre.

Angelica said...

I meant to ask could Grandma have sold him?

Anonymous said...

Oh Juliet, I will say, you do tend to go a little overboard.

That being said though, you have some very good ideas and speculation as to what happened. You seem to go back and forth a bit, one minute blaming the family, the next defending them, which is fine, but try not to discredit anyone else's thoughts while you are replying. They might have fresh ideas too.

I was for sure when this first happened that the parents were guilty.
Now I don't think so.
There are too many things that could have happened, not enough answers, and we can't and shouldn't judge anyone by what they do or don't do in this situation if we have never been there ourselves.

I am starting to wonder about the whole Stage Shop sighting.
Is that where they were that night they came in?
The 9th?
And then they were there again as a family the next day, correct?

Is this the same place Rebecca Cox works?
She is an RSO correct?
I have heard that she sold her children for sex on other social media outlets but I don't know if that is true. I hope not.
I have also heard she was the one spreading cremains in the area.

If she was there and saw Deorr, and this is all true, how hard would it have been for her to get up to that mountain, knowing the terrain (and she has been up there) to grab Deorr Jr. Would make the suspicious old man visiting the Stage Shop a little more suspicious if he already knew her personally on a far more scary scale.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I can't blame the parents without more proof. There are too many what it's right now.
I know the statistics say the probability for abduction is low, but.....
It still happens.

Keep voicing your ideas though, I do like to read them as they give me another point of view.

Anonymous said...

The family friend is a person of interest and with good reason: a sex offender.
His high forehead and strong brow-line makes me think he may have mental issues. If he hid the boy, it would be bizarre.
I wonder if they searched in the trees? Under their own vehicle? Some place no one else would think up.

Anonymous said...

"His high forehead and strong brow-line makes me think he may have mental issues."

Yes, he seems too stupid to pull this off without getting caught.

Jessica Blans said...

Anonymous at 3:03pm,
Where is proof that family friend is a sex offender? It's a comment that's thrown around a lot, but no links to a conviction are provided. I believe there is a link to some sort of conviction, but it not anything that makes him a RSO (which I believe you are implying). And unless you have new research establishing the reliability of phrenology, the comment about his forehead and brow line are inappropriate.

I might need to stop reading comments. I'm getting all fired up.

Jessica Blans

Anonymous said...

Anon at 3:03pm

I don't believe that IR is an RSO, I know Rebecca Cox is, but he is not.
I know he has had charges, but I am not sure of those charges.
State your proof that IR is an RSO if you are so sure as I have found no evidence of that.

Juliet said...

I agree, Jessica - that's plain offensive towards Isaac -I like the phrenology comment. He is not a RSO - there are people who want us to think that, and to look at Isaac as opposed to anyone else, which is interesting for the lack of as to why.

Anon at 3.01 - I hope to have a differing opinion is not thereby to discredit anyone else's thoughts - sorry if I seem to do that, to anyone who finds that I do - I'll try to be less opinionated.

Yes, I sometimes suspect the family, and at other times am more successful in bearing In mind that they might be telling more truth than lie - I don't know, except that at the beginning Peter advised us to keep an open mind, which is not possible if we then allow it to be made up. I think we don't yet know enough, and that the truth is still out there.

Rebecca Cox does not work at the Stage Stop. She is a RSO of many years duration. I doubt she would be fit enough to run up a mountain, and no vehicles were heard (which makes the family's plea to look out for a black truck and a Chevy interesting). I don't believe that little DeOrr was ever in the store, or obsessed over by an elderly man, but he very probably was outside, in his father's problem black truck, in a state of distress, on the Thursday evening, though we are led to believe it was the Friday 'but earlier'. Rebecca Cox has been thrown into the mix, perhaps not in order to create more doubt and confusion, but to that effect - personally I think she's a red herring - I may be wrong, of course.

More speculation, and no timeline. I am taking a break, and so far only have two times and no quotes, so this is not going well. Actually, I am also collating news articles and the Sheriff's press releases, and then will find as many of Trina's FB comments as I can - also wishing I had not deleted them now, but how weirdly obsessive does anyone want their iPad 'Pages' to look? :)

Anonymous said...

About Isaac's past and record. He was accused of rape. He plead down to domestic violence. Then he repeatedly violated the restraining order of the victim. No self control at all. When he was a young teenager, he shot one of his friends for not playing with him. Impulsive. He has bipolar disorder with psychotic episodes. He has been hospitalized long term (more than 3 day hold) several times for suicide attempts. He was arrested several times as kid. This points to conduct disorder, which points to psychopathy.

Sus said...

Speaking of Isaac Reinwand, I am guessing the latest little push (interview, reward offer, and coming reenactment) has stirred him to action. He has posted the article about the reward on his Facebook page. A comment below it is quite interesting, seeming to mock Little Deorr's disappearance by blaming Sasquatch and telling him "to think outside the box." Where have we heard that before?

Anonymous said...

Isaac!!!! What's in the box??? Grandma said it was camping gear...was it? was it? Did sasquatch take him all the way to TEXAS???? Tell us Isaac, we are dying to know!!!!

Juliet said...

Isaac's page has quite a few posts I regard as mocking, and they've been there for a while - his own, apart from his follower's comment. Would he mock if he were responsible? It seems unlikely, unless he considers himself to be somehow above the law. Some do, but I don't much suspect Isaac.

--

His sealed records, well, thanks for that - I don't think it's right to put that information out there - it seems an attempt to incriminate him. So he is bi-polar - so are many people, without being psychopaths - and even if he is, most psychopaths don't kill babies, though some babies are killed by psychopaths. It's cheap to put that information out there. Is his rape victim commenting on his Facebook? Just wondering.

The Sheriff considers Isaac truthful - admittedly, we don't know what he said.

Sus said...

The sheriff does not consider Isaac truthful.

Juliet said...

Anon at 4.45 - don't be shy. Are you saying grandma knew that the box didn't contain camping gear? Would that be the same box the Sheriff regretted perhaps not having searched quite thoroughly enough, when he was wondering if there had maybe also been another box? Or are you just trying to put suspicion onto Isaac? It all sounds pretty desperate - the Sheriff believes Isaac.

Juliet said...

I'm just saying what the Sheriff said, which is presumably what the Sheriff would like people to believe, Sus.

Anonymous said...

Juliet thank you for your thoughts.

What I meant by getting up the mountain I don't mean by foot.
I know other vehicles were not heard in the area.
But how many people would hear an ATV on backwoods trails, by the time the sheriff got there?
I know it's been awhile since she has offended, and I wouldn't want to dredge that back up, but it is concerning if she did sell her children, as she would have underground information privy to only certain others. Likewise if she was the one spreading cremains but the sheriff has said no that it wasn't her?

Just trying to look at all possibilities.
I don't think Grandma Trina took Deorr Jr.
I think she is tired of defending herself and her child on sm.
The amount of hate out there is unending.

A little boy is missing, presumably dead, so I am hoping the fbi is looking at everything closely. I am sure they are. I wonder if we will know anything soon.

Anonymous said...

Juliet, I'm not shy. I am not trying to throw suspicion on Isaac. Isaac is doing that all by himself. His latest attempt to deflect suspicion was a big FAIL. He thinks he's fooled the sheriff, the parents, the grandma, the PI. But he hasn't fooled me.

Jessica Blans said...

Anonymous at 4:24
Conduct disorders do not point to psychopathy. Sigh. The best that can be said is that children with certain types of severe conduct disorders have a suppressed empathetic response (study led by Dr. Essi Viding) and adult psychopathy is marked by lack of empathy. However, the study does NOT link conduct disorder with psychopathy and researchers even caution again a causal link.

I think your point about the rape charge -pleaded down - might be accurate based on info I've seen posted elsewhere, but it was a while ago. I think I have also seen a statement by the child (now an adult) who was shot, but he did not specify the reason was he wouldn't play with IR.

If there is a history of mental illness, I'm sure LE is familiar with it and taking it into consideration. However, unless IR makes a statement that we can analyze, this information is not relevant to this site. Although the Sasquatch comment is odd, it is from a comment on IR Facebook page, not from IR himself. And it's a comment from someone who created a page in July; chances are it's a fake profile.

Jessica Blans

PS I like how Juliet can argue either side
Oakley, I like your specific and targeted comments
Angelica, it would be helpful if you could attach more of your reasoning behind comments. For instance you you don't think the grandma likes the dad, but do not provide evidence (such as statement analysis or nonverbal comm analysis). And you say you think the mom is hiding her hand and hiding a ring, but without much support other than we don't see the hand/ring much in the video. We also don't see her shoes or her elbows. Not a big deal unless we can point to something that makes us think she is hiding them. Are her hands twisted in unnatural positions that obscure her ring finger in an awkward or forced manner? No. Are her hands occupied in a way that naturally might obscure a ring? Yes - she is holding hands (or her hands are being held) by the people on either side of her. Maybe you've picked up on something I haven't, but it's really hard to tell without getting more specifics of why you are making your conclusions.

Anonymous said...

Diagnostic criteria for 301.7 Antisocial Personality Disorder
These criteria are obsolete.

DSM IV - TR

(cautionary statement)

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.

C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.

Anonymous said...

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/820_clinica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

Juliet said...

I don't think Trina has harmed DeOrr either - the suggestion is absurd - I don't think any of them have harmed him, or if so, not intentionally. He is a loved and cared for baby, but something went terribly wrong. Trina is supporting her family, but has doubts as to the truthfulness of their story. She wants to believe them. It's possible, if there was a death and cover up, she was somehow involved, perhaps unwittingly, and has no idea. If it should transpire that Trina was there on the Thursday, and if it is so that 'the last place WE seen that baby was at the campsite' then I'd probably have to believe she is involved in a cover-up, perhaps without knowing it.

---

I'm going to do a timeline. Sufficient to the day, and all that. :-/

Angelica said...

Her left hand is hidden under the blanket when walking in this video, the rest of the time Grandma is holding it. I will post the link to the other video where her hand is obscured by the blanket during close ups of her hand area. It just looks to me like she is making an unnatural effort to obscure her hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358

Maybe I am wrong, it just seems she is always trying to keep her left hand covered when there are any type of close-ups. I think she is uncomfortable about the ring on her hand but I could be wrong.

I think Grandma referring to the Mom and Dad separately saying (I am paraphrasing)

1) Grandma begins by almost making a Freudian slip saying "I want my..." she almost says she wants HER son back. She stops herself and says she wants her daughter to have her son back and then she separately says she wants the Dad "to have his son back SO he can raise him".

SCAN would highlight the word "SO" and make anything that comes before that word sensitive, so in this case, the sensitivity would fall on the fact that it is sensitive whether she wants the Dad to have his son back.

This is actually quite important to look at her saying that. Any information where a person offers the reason something is being done, in this case, WHY she wants the Dad to have his son back is VERY sensitive.

Peter has told us cases can be solved this way. It would be great if there were other words used by her like so, because, therefore, etc as she was speaking to see if we could get a cluster.

I will provide an exact transcript of what Grandma says at that point within 45 min.

Angelica said...

PS. I think Grandma's language is the most suspicious of any of them. Although we havent heard much from MOM

Juliet said...

Anon at 5.32 - well, it looks that way to me. What you say is all rather jeering, vague and accusatory. What are the accusations - in what has Isaac not fooled you? It's no more than meaningless insult if you can't offer any grounds for your suspicions. He was there. So was grandpa. Jessica. DeOrr. Possibly Trina, if she wasn't just being overly empathetic in including herself as seeing little DeOrr last at the campground, and despite that there appeared to have been no trace of him there.

deejay said...

I am a pretty honest person. I use 'to be honest' as a qualifier for - "This next statement is not polite as I would otherwise be, but"... In that case, it does not mean that I have lied, but I have kept some piece info to myself, out of decorum, privacy, or whatever. Examples: " To be honest, I never cared for our co-worker, Jim." "To be honest, it is hard for me to pretend that Jim is as useful as the boss thinks". "To be honest, I haven't saved enough money for retirement."

Juliet said...

Oakley - I noticed that, too - they don't express any concern for DeOrr's welfare. Trina speaks of their need for the baby, not of his greater need for them. Greater because they have understanding of the situation, while he, if alive, can have none. This struck me in the first interview, too - they don't address his needs, not even when speaking of his comfort items. They say he always has them with him, not that he will be upset without them. So, I think even then they felt he had no need of his blanket - either because the one they have is not his favourite, which is with him, or because sadly, he no longer has any need of it. Generally, they have not addressed his needs, nor called him by name, so I tend towards him not being alive, though it could be that they just don't much consider the needs of their baby, which seems less likely, as the photographs show a happy, loved and cared for baby. I have wondered, since seeing Jessica's blanket smile, if it is possible that he could be, by her consent, with someone else, and if it's a case of his needs no longer being their concern? That also seems unlikely, and DeOrr in this interview appears to believe his son is dead. It has to be so, surely, for them not to even wonder aloud as to what might be happening to him - the psychological torture of that does not come through, and it didn't in the earlier interview either. They only aired a fraction of it though - so perhaps they have expressed concern. It's so frustrating that they did a long interview and put out a crumb. :-/

Anonymous said...

He's still in there. It is doubtful they flipped over rocks or dug in the mud banks. The father praised the search crews and their technology; their equipment can only do so much. The searchers were volunteers.

Angelica said...

Here is transcript of Grandma's words:

"I need just to have, my daughter to have her son back, I need DeOrr to have his son back SO he can raise his son, and us as a family we just, we need that little boy."


1) note she begins statement by almost saying that she needs HER son back but stops herself.

2)note repetition of the word "just"

3) note sensitivity before the highlighted word "so" making the statement "I need DeOrr to have his son back" sensitive

4) note repetition of "his son" in the statement "I need DeOrr to have his son back so he can raise his son" rather than "I need DeOrr to have his son back so he can raise him"

5) note "THAT little boy" distances her from the boy (as Peter pointed out)

Angelica said...

In one of the youtube videos which shows lots of picture of baby DeOrr it appears that they have 2 other older children (maybe 7 and 5 yrs old). Why was just baby DeOrr taken camping?

Buckley said...

note she begins statement by almost saying that she needs HER son back but stops herself.

Seeing that she doesn't say "my son" how are you concluding that's what she stopped herself from saying?

Buckley said...

The other 2 are Jessica's from her previous marriage. The dad has custody.

Anonymous said...

Angelina she also might have been getting ready to say she needs her grandson back, but putting her daughters needs before hers, rephrased and put that her daughter needs her son back.
I don't think Trina was involved, if she was involved she didn't know she was or is.
She takes very good care of Jessica's other two children from Brennon and does a very good job of it. It seems her and Brennon have a good relationship.
I don't think Trina and Jessica were seeing eye to eye when all this happened, just by the lack of pictures of little deorr on her fb page, I don't think Jessica regularily brought him to spend much time with her. It's probably bc Jessica didn't spend much time with her other two children that Trina and her have a difficult relationship. Also Jessica might not agree with Trina being as close as she is with Brennon since she is now with Deorr.

Just some ideas.

Angelica said...


Correct me if I am wrong, is Grandma saying below that she removed a soiled diaper from a crime scene, brought it into her vehicle and drove with it, and threw it into a church's garbage???

This is grandma answering questions on another site I found googling:

"Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Call Lemhi County about searching. I'd like to know what they say (HONESTLY) I don't ask I just go and search
Like · 6 · 9 hrs


Asia Payne Can you let everyone know when it was that you were with him last (when you referenced his diaper)?
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg His diaper was from Friday morning at the camp site
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Juliet said...

The one photo which does not show a happy baby is the one from Trina's page of him in front of the water, the year old photo from the camping trip at Blackfoot Reservoir - perhaps he was scared by the rifle, if they fired it - it was taken at the same time. I believe the siblings are the children in the accompanying photos, and the little girl is being shown how to look through the scope. I wonder why they used that as it's the only not good photograph of him they have shown. I wonder who gave it to the media and if someone wanted that photo to be seen. If I had so few photos of my grandchild, and they were those, I would be ashamed to put them on Facebook, or to show a baby around someone playing with a rifle I know there are varying attitudes towards guns in the U.S, and that it's not unusual for quite young children to be taught to handle them, but to me, those images are disturbing. Although the rifle is out of view in that photo, I still wouldn't use it - it's a year old out of focus photo. Is it rather odd, or is it just my perception that it is odd? If I was Jessica, I would not want that photo made public - if I were Trina and it was the only photo I had of him, I'm not sure I would be terribly proud of it -I would keep it, but not show it round. I wonder why it is there, being used as a publicity photo, when his features are barely visible and it's so out of date. There are many moe recent and beautiful photos, so I wonder who found it appropriate to put that one out there early on -a poor image which, frankly, makes him look not quite so happy or cared for - I wonder if someone wanted to give that impression, or if was just unfortunate that the first person the press encountered with a photo of DeOrr on their phone happened to be Trina, and that was the only photo she had of him in which he was facing the camera.

Okay, this has nothing to do with statement analysis, not by any stretch of the imagination, so really, I am going to do a timeline now and not comment again till it's done. :)

Angelica said...

Googled and found on another site that the Grandma says she found the soiled diaper hanging in a plastic bag from a tree at the campsite, took it down and threw it away in a church's garbage after she came up there after being alerted of baby DeOrr going missing. Really?!?!

Who would remove something like that from a crime scene pertaining to a missing baby?

If Grandma did have something to do with baby DeOrr's disappearance, then maybe she did have the baby in her car, change his diaper and throw it away in a church garbage.

If grandma is telling the truth about removing the diaper from a crime scene, she has also gotten rid of evidence that would have shown whether baby DeOrr was given any type of poison or ingested anything poisonous or any drug etc.

Why would she ever have removed a diaper from a crime scene, particularly if it involved untying it from a tree branch?

This makes no sense.

Buckley said...

Juliet- This thread has both a timeline and links to media reports. I would ignore the timeline at first so it doesn't cloud your making of your own.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?286501-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-yr-old-Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page2

John mcgowan said...

"You, your"

Context is paramount. Is it global, universal, is it used to spread out guilt and share within a crowd, is it used to distance oneself? If so, why?

This is unique, and, it is not something that "everyone" can relate to. It is personal, upfront, in your face personal.

To employ distancing language "you" and more disturbing, "that". Does not bode well. sadly.

Anonymous said...

Angelica,

Her claim is that she threw the diaper away in the garbage bag provided by the church, who had shown up at the campground to provide food for volunteers.

You are right about how suspicious this claim is, though.

Law Enforcement said there was no trace of DeOrr at the campsite. Trina now claims that there was, in fact, evidence of his presence, but that she removed it without notifying anyone, and that she disposed of it in a place where it is conveniently irretrievable.

The Sheriff isn't taking her word for it. That's why he's only 99% sure DeOrr was at the campsite.

"Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward."

I think 100% makes confidence sensitive.

Why not just tell us that you saw his diaper? Why all the explanation about what you did with it, and why it is not available?

She tells us that the officers have that information, but not how they got it. She wants us to conclude that they saw the diaper, but nobody saw it but her.

She also claims that she found it on Sunday. Two days on the scene and no officer noticed it? No dog smelled it? And now it is gone forever, with only Trina to verify that it ever existed?

Please feel free to offer me your thoughts about the sensitivity of "100% confidence." I don't know if I am objective enough to conclude anything from a Statement Analysis perspective right now.

K.M.





Anonymous said...

Why "you, your"? How about "I knew I was in trouble."

Naggin', Naggin'...I told you so!

The comradery is paramount. Faking being a 'he-man' isn't cutting it thus far. Want to pretend to be a hunter but doesn't know what may be hunting him or his.

Juliet said...

Buckley -thanks, I will find that very helpful as I'm not getting very far on my own -though, actually, I am not here, I have gone to make my timeline. :-D


Angelica - I think Trina should be given a break on the diaper disposal as it was not a crime scene at the time, and probably the last thing on her mind was thoughts of forensics, or a crime involving harm to the baby caused while in his parents care, which he was, whilst wearing that diaper. Remember the parents were saying abduction, and Trina said that he appeared to have vanished. It was unfortunate but the diaper may have been retrieved later, anyway.

Anonymous said...

One more thing about Trina's comments:

"Trina Bates Clegg We were told to hold off on the media due to all the negativity and it is taking the focus off of my grandson and him being located"

The passivity of "We were told" conceals who told them to hold off on the media. I would bet that it wasn't law enforcement.

Again, I welcome second opinions on this. I'm not sure how objective I am about this case anymore.

K.M.

Deejay said...

Ok- is there anyway that some accident happened elsewhere? Did they put him somewhere else, then go up to the campgrounds? This would be a large cast of characters for a 'staged disappearance'. And where would they have come up with the kid at the store? No way a 2 year old spends time at a campsite without leaving DNA all over. Confused.

Juliet said...

K.M - I didn't see your post - do we know that the diaper wasn't retrieved? They are pretty good at finding stuff in garbage, even tracing where it went from any particular street, so I imagine it might have been found, if it ever was there. I am trying to believe them - if Trina made all that up, and he wasn't there, or she doesn't believe for sure he was, she should just say. I suppose if he's gone, he's gone, and they just will try to not be accountable, and to cover up, say 'helpful' things, go into some type of denial - whatever.

Juliet said...

Deejay - the store sighting would seem to make an accident elsewhere unlikely. Unless, say, they were camping somewhere else and DeOrr wanted a safer campground, so drove out further with DeOrr, checked out Timber Creek and considered it ideal except for concern about the creek, stopped at the store, then went back to wherever they were first camping, where something happened. Then they upped stakes for Timber Creek to make it seem they were there all along, and that DeOrr had gone missing from there. Likely, no.

The store sighting is so inconvenient to an accident happening elsewhere. Jessica was very concerned to have it discounted - why though? Was it because she genuinely did not know about it, and did not want to believe that it was DeOrr with little DeOrr - or was it because the sighting was on Thursday (it couldn't have been on Friday as DeOrr was already missing by then), and she did not want it known that actually, they were in Timber Creek on the Thursday? We know now that they were' and that it
is possible that DeOrr was missing on the Thursday, from six o clock, if he never was at the campsite. I'm not sure he never was there, only that no trace of him has been found. I would like to hear the dog handlers' take on this - if they mean there was a scent, that he had been there, but they found no remaining physical evidence of him any longer being there.
--
(Abandoning further pretence at a timeline tonight - it's 2.15am, too late and tired, but tomorrow's another day.)

Jessica Blans said...

Angelica,

Thank you for explaining what you were thinking. It makes so much more sense to me now. I think, perhaps, that you were basing some of your comments on information learned at other sites, which made it difficult for me to follow. I understand better now.

Jessica Blans

Angelica said...

KM and everyone,

Something just hit me. What if Grandma is telling the truth? What if she did take the diaper down from where it was tied in the tree and throw it away in the garbage that belonged to the church at the site?

If Grandma in fact did do this, Grandma got rid of the only evidence that could have proven baby DeOrr was at the campsite. What if Grandma is smart enough to realize that her words stating that the soiled diaper was there carry little weight and legally carry none compared to LE actually seeing the soiled diaper at the campsite?

Is Grandma smart enough to frame these people? Her actions tossing the diaper sure are suspicious and lead me to think she may be.

What if the sensitivity of grandma saying "I am 100% confident he was at the campsite" is due to her desire that LE be uncertain whether or not he was at the campsite? What if she wants uncertainty?
Look at her actions. She got rid of the proof.

Angelica said...

Jessica Blans,

No problem, I was not being clear and I appreciate you asking me to explain myself.

Anonymous said...

The diaper is irretrievable from the place where she disposed of it, not necessarily forever (if it exists). If they never find a diaper, Trina will still be able to claim that she saw it and disposed of it.

I think it would be difficult to find this diaper in a landfill. Landfill searches can be expensive and time consuming, and I doubt that law enforcement would expend money and effort to find a diaper (all diapers found in that area of the landfill would also then have to be tested to confirm it was DeOrr's) that would prove, at most, that DeOrr was in fact at the campsite when he disappeared. I also doubt they would undertake a search of this kind based solely on Trina's word.

If they had found this diaper, I think they would release that information to the public. Where a missing child was last seen is arguably the most important piece of information for the public to have when searching for a missing child. A significant percentage of the population doubts that he was ever at the campground; this would allay those concerns and confirm his presence to a reasonable degree.

I would be shocked if they ever find this diaper. If the diaper ever existed, it is the only piece of evidence that DeOrr was ever at the campsite. The idea that Trina saw this evidence, removed it from the campground without permission and disposed of it in a manner that would make it difficult if not impossible to recover tests the limits of my imagination. It is far too convenient for me to believe that Trina can vouch for DeOrr's presence by way of evidence that she cannot produce.

I also wonder when, exactly, Trina made law enforcement aware of this diaper. Certainly it was after the church's garbage had been taken away.

K.M.

Anonymous said...

It's easy to see who the Neilson family members are here! Maybe Grandma framed these people. There were enough "cast of characters" to stage a disappearance. the left hand....subliminal non-marriage killing perhaps.

lynda said...

It is hard to put an actual timeline together, particularly based on statements on SM from the family because once they saw the tide turning they removed/deleted many of their posts. I myself was talking over SM with Trina and this is what she said:
The camping trip was in the planning stage for about a week. It was not a last minute decision. Trina and jessica had not gotten along for some time and were estranged. It had something to do with Trina not thinking that Jessica was caring for the grandfather well and she thought perhaps that grandpa was being taken advantage of. She did not say HOw he was supposedly being taken advantage of but I would GUESS it means financial. She said that before this camping trip, Dad, Mom and baby were preparing to leave to move to Utah. Dad has family there and he had a job waiting for him. The job fell thru. Then the camping trip was planned.
The caravan left Thursday late afternoon and BEFORE they got to Leodore, they stopped at a gas station to fill up and get snacks. They proceeded to camp site. Trina said no one had been to that site before except grandpa and herself and it had been approx. 25 years since she has been there. GRANDPA suggested they go to that campsite. They arrived approx. 9:30 PM. Grandpa slept in camper he hitched up there, Isaac slept in tent and mom/dad/baby slept in the bed of truck. The next morning (Friday) Jessica made a point of callling her mother and telling her she needed "feminine items" (We don't know what these were because the Sheriff has not released what she purchased. Feminine products could mean pads, tampons, douches, pregnancy test, a myriad of things.) They supposedly got in truck and traveled to store to get these items. It was approx. 10 AM or so. Round trip it takes almost 2 hours. They arrive back at camp and all shit hits the fan....

lynda said...

CONTINUED

EVERYTHING that Trina has stated on SM besides the fact that Jess and her were estranged, was TOLD to her by someone else. She was NOT there, She knows nothing except what was told to her. When she said Jess called her and told her baby was missing, she made it to campsite in approx. 2 1/2 hours. She said she was there by around 4:30. Trina says she is 100% sure that baby was at campsite. Sheriff says he is 99% sure he was at campground. Big difference. There is NO evidence he was there. Trina said that on Saturday, now the 3rd day, she deposited one of baby's diapers in a bag hanging in a tree that church volunteers (who were up at campsite serving food for searchers) had placed there for garbage. Trina said LE was aware of this but that nobody confiscated diaper. How is anyone to know whether or not this was baby's diaper?? Or how old the poop was in it??

In parents televised interview Dad says they went "exploring" and were no more than 50 feet away from camp. Jessica interrupts him and says 10-15 minutes AWAY from camp. Dad corrects his statement and parrots what Jessica said. So....does it take them 15 minutes to walk 50 feet? NO.
My opinion is that Jess called her mom (who she was estranged from) to establish some sort of reason/alibi as to why they had to drive all the way back into town. This is when they disposed of body..somewhere other than the campsite. They argue about how this is going to go down (Peter's analysis shows they argued about calling 911) When they get back to campsite they go "exploring" Grandpa is somewhere, Isaac is supposedly fishing, and it is entirely plausible that neither one saw them RETURN with baby. Upon coming back from exploring, they ask Grandpa where is baby and grandpa is "Huh??" I thought he was with you. And it begins. They eventually call 911 and by Jessicas own call, it is at least an HOUR since someone saw him (I think it has been far longer) Jess calls her mom and says baby is missing, I need you, come quick, we are no longer estranged. Trina rushes up there.
There are so many discrepancies in the parents interview, so many stops and starts, interrupting, talking over, etc. that this is one big cluster. Police did not treat scene as crime scene FOR DAYS. Evidence, if any, is completely lost. They cannot even say they are 100% sure baby is even there. If they can't say it, we can't say it for them.

lynda said...

The RSO woman at the bar is the one who spread the cremains. Her mom died earlier that week and guess what?? The Sheriff and his wife own the funeral home and did the cremation! What a coincidence.
Isaac is a rapist. The Idaho State Repository shows Reinwand was charged with felony rape in 2006, but that charge was amended down to misdemeanor domestic battery. You are not charged with RAPE unless there was penetration involved. Rape is not sexual battery, or gross sexual imposition, or anything else. It is RAPE. He's a rapist. The fact that it was pled down means nothing. This is what are judicial system does. It is very difficult for someone in a domestic situation to get a conviction for rape. Domestic rape sufferers are not treated the same as stranger rapes. That's just a fact and a sad one at that.
This latest interview is SO far from anything expected from parents of a missing child that I will again state, I am pretty sure this is going to go the way of Caylee, Hailey, Ayla, Kyron....no one will ever be prosecuted. It was a cluster**** from the beginning, the Sheriff waited far to long to treat anything as a crime scene and the good old boy system is firmly in place. The deputy sheriff is Jessica's uncle according to Trina.
This latest interview is SO far from anything expected from parents of a missing child that I will again state, I am pretty sure this is going to go the way of Caylee, Hailey, Ayla, Kyron....no one will ever be prosecuted. It was a cluster**** from the beginning, the Sheriff waited far to long to treat anything as a crime scene and the good old boy system is firmly in place. The deputy sheriff is Jessica's uncle according to Trina.

Juliet- Good luck with your timeline. Websleuths is not a good place to get it as they are not allowed to talk or write about anything that is not from LE or news website. Comments made on SM are NOT ALLoweD.

Anonymous said...

Angelica,

I would think that if Trina were framing them, she would want DeOrr's presence at the campsite confirmed. There is no evidence or testimony to place Trina at the campsite (so far, at least), so if he disappeared while at the campsite, it would be difficult for anyone to claim she was involved. I don't think she would frame her daughter. I don't know how their relationship is, but I noticed that she used a full social introduction for Jessica in her comments (my daughter, Jessica).

I think Trina's sensitivity relates to Jessica's involvement. She wants to defend her daughter, which is pretty natural. Most mothers defend their children, even when they commit a terrible crime.

It also might be that she loves DeOrr, and she believes she needs to convince people that he was at the campsite to keep them looking. She is young for a grandmother, and I remember Peter saying that the age of a grandmother will factor into how long they are in denial.

I think Trina is withholding some information (i.e., who told the family to hold off on the media) and is lying about the diaper. But I think she is doing it to protect Jessica and perhaps to convince the public and law enforcement that continuing to search isn't a waste of time.

I like when people think out loud, though.

K.M.

Anonymous said...

Lynda,

Thanks so much for all the information from Trina.

Do you happen to know if it is true that Trina has custody of Jessica's other two children?

K.M.

Buckley said...

That's exactly why it is a good (not great) source *for aggregated links to media accounts of the story*. If you know of a site that does that AND compiles SM links as well, by all means share it.

While your summary of facebook posts of Trina seems thorough and is helpful, it is not an actual source. I take your word that's what was said, but on the other hand I see one detail you got wrong in the summary of the parent interview.

lynda said...

Buckley...I was winging it from memory in the parent interview..I didn't mean to mislead if an error. Feel free to correct and post my error so proper info is out there.

Anon 10:29 Trina does not have custody of Jessica's other children, a girl and boy. Their bio dad does...his name is Brennon Birch and he posts quite a bit on FB..seems like a decent guy. He has a couple diff FB pages, check out the current one.

Anonymous said...

I would like to know why Jessica interrupted DeOrr to correct him at that point in the interview:

DKS:  He was playing with Grandpa he was over, he was getting ready for a nap. I want to say it was almost, by that time it was almost two and he usually takes his nap. Um, we, we was just, yeah we decided we’re gonna go a little exploring, he was gonna be good with Grandpa by the campfire. We weren’t more than probably fifty- 

JM:  Ten minutes.  

DKS:  Fifty yards away and ten minutes uh but the time we, I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up from the [creek] and I actually seen there were some things down there, little minnows I thought he would just love, so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa...


Why did Jessica think that DeOrr Sr. was talking about time when he said "fifty?"

K.M.

lynda said...

So much for seeing the unedited interview..drat!

From Eastidahonews.com


Kim Hernandez
Yesterday at 11:09pm
Nate Eaton, will an unedited interview of the most recent interview with Kunz family be posted?
11Like · Comment
Angie Peterson Phillips likes this.

East Idaho News.com No. Kim I don't believe so

lynda said...

Buckley...I don't know of anywhere that there is a compiled timeline of BOTH SM and news sources. Websleuths is great for media source timelines tho.
I agree that my interaction with Trina is not a "source". I posted to get it out there. What I find most interesting about it all was that they were estranged, and this has brought them back together as a mother and daughter. I feel that that is why Trina defends her daughter so much, now that they're speaking again she doesn't want to screw it up so to speak. Trina has been very vocal on SM and there were a few times where she posted that she had not heard this or that and she asked for sources. It appeared she was "out of the loop" on several things. I remember one being something regarding the polys.

Buckley said...

Maybe her "ten minutes" was already moving from brain to mouth before "fifty". I took her to mean they were gone for ten minutes, not that they were ten minutes away. And "15" does not appear in the statement here at all.

Angelica said...

Lynda,

Very important info you have supplied. We know now that Grandma knew that Mom and Dad were leaving the campground for a considerable period of time (2 hours) and right before baby goes missing bc the Mom called her to tell her she needed feminine items. I wonder why she would call her Mom to tell her that unless she had initially asked if the Trina could bring them up to the campsite for her.

Anonymous said...

Angelica = Angie Peterson Philips
Fight for Justice for Baby Deorr

KM = Kellen Marson

Taking over the blog now are we?? Lol

Buckley said...

I agree the FB posts are helpful. I just like to see the statements myself to be sure :). I'm thankful for what you posted!

lynda said...

Buckley..I stand corrected but DKS says 50 yards away (150 feet) and 10 minutes, parroting Jessica. Which was it? 50 yards or 10 minutes? It doesn't take 10 min to walk 50 yards. Were they meandering? Did it really take 10 minutes to walk 150 feet? Who knows what really happened as it is SO confusing how DKS speaks.

DKS: He was playing with Grandpa he was over, he was getting ready for a nap. I want to say it was almost, by that time it was almost two and he usually takes his nap. Um, we, we was just, yeah we decided we’re gonna go a little exploring, he was gonna be good with Grandpa by the campfire. We weren’t more than probably fifty-

JM: Ten minutes.

DKS: Fifty yards away and ten minutes uh but the time we, I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone

Buckley said...

Right, I think she starts to answer to his "we weren't more than..." and she answers in time. When he says "fifty yards" it's clear they're giving different info. I believe she means they were gone ten minutes not that they were at a distance that would take ten minutes to travel.

Anonymous said...

Oh Hell Buckley, in reverse that came out that you disposed of the soiled diaper.
You also know where it is.
Give it up! Where's the Luv's??
Hahaha wow!

Get out of here you two, Trina was NOT THERE.
STOP TRYING TO SPIN YOUR SICK TWISTED IDEAS HERE.

Start another hate page somewhere else.

Buckley said...

'Cause ya know, it took 5 minutes to smoke the joint ;)

Angelica said...

K.M.,

Thought-provoking points. I guess where I'm coming from, I'm trying to put myself inside of Trina's head and assuming she could have any number of psychopathologies (not saying she does but IMO if you are dealing with an incident of this magnitude, you have to assume that as a possibility in any of the players (criminal mindedness): Trina shows up to the campsite and searchers are there searching for any sign of baby DeOrr, who has "vanished", so what does she do? She throws the one sign of his presence there away.

Possible motive: Feelings of aggression towards searchers? Trying to create chaos/confusion by tampering with something that had "belonged" to baby DeOrr? If high intelligence, knowing she was removing the one sign that would prove his presence there leading LE and the public to question whether he was ever really there which would absolutely cause increased suspicion on both her daughter and baby DeOrr's Dad. Baby DeOrr's confirmed presence there would lead LE to be forced to question whether it was a wild animal, accidental drowning, baby wonders off and just cant be found, perhaps moved by wild animal etc. indefinitely Once you place doubt whether he was even there, then these 2 are never going to be able to escape suspicion.

Trina did then tell LE about disposing of the diaper but this is utterly useless information unless the diaper could be found, which it won't be.

Another question I have: Why would Jessica call her MOm to tell her she needed feminine items if they were estranged? It is odd. Perhaps the Mom had told her call me if you need anything, yet she did not help get the feminine items.

Angelica said...

Anon @ 11:10,

Sounds like you are more familiar with the people close to the case than anyone here.

Anonymous said...

Maybe.....
Maybe if she (Jessica) was taking care of her mother's very sick father on a camping trip, her grandfather - she would call her mom and tell her esp if they needed to leave him for an hour to run and get things - people can be estranged and still communicate about people they care about.

No big sleuthing needed there, ya know?? LOL

Anonymous said...

Angie it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. You just showed up, spewing hate for Trina all over the place. I mean come on. Trina was not there.
Stop trying to make this about Trina now.
You need to find something else to do with your time.
You and Kara and Kellen.

Anonymous said...

Ps. Where did your page go?
Didn't see the Fight For Justice for Baby Deorr page up all day, did you finally get it that accusing people of murder on social media can get your bum slapped with a lawsuit?
Go somewhere else.

This blog is about analyzing words, Statement Analysis from Avinoam Sapir and the SCAN method and Peter is a respected professional.
He trains LE and Human Resources professionals.

This isn't a blog page to push your wild agendas that Trina jumped out of the woods to steal baby Deorr in the night.
You three have way too much time on your hands.

Go back to Backward Speech.

Angelica said...

Anon @ 11;52,

I realize that some people here go on FB to attain information, but I generally do not. I was not aware there was a "Fight For Justice For Baby DeOrr page".

I am well aware of what the blog is for, am familiar with statement analysis rules as well as SCAN.

I am fairly good at analyzing statements as is everyone I have been discussing this case with, and I find Trina's statements to contain sensitivity.

Why are you so concerned with what is being discussed here Anon?

Angelica said...

Anon, what do you think happened to Baby DeOrr? Do you think it was a stranger abduction? Just curious what your opinion is.

Anonymous said...

Angie you aren't fooling me.

You are so good at analysing statements, correct?
Analyse this:

I have called you out three times now.

I reliable denial would be

I am not Angie Peterson Philips.

You can't say it.
And I can't say it for you.

Anonymous said...

Ok, here is what really happened to Baby Deorr. Everyone ready?

Jessica, Baby and Daddy arrive in Leadore Thursday evening around 6. Baby is tired and hungry and throwing a huge fit. As they are driving back to the campsite, Daddy flips and kills the baby. They drive back to the campsite and enlist the help of Isaac, who knows the area well. They hide the body in a mine shaft about 10 miles from the site, and get back to the campsite around 9:38, texting Jessica's mother that they had arrived. They dream up the kidnapping story, drive into town the next morning to establish their alibi's (and get the timestamp for the "tampons and candy"). When they get back to the camp they wait a bit, then call LE.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

What's in the box? Child pornography. Right Isaac?

Angelica said...

Well, I asked you a question. I asked what do you think happened to Baby DeOrr? You did not answer the question, therefore you answered the question. You do not have a clue what happened.
So stop jumping on us for trying to figure it out.
If the family is postulating a stranger jumped out of the bushes and stole baby DeOrr, is it outlandish for people to wonder whether someone who was actually present or who knew of their presence there at the campsite had something to do with it? Which is more outlandish anon???
And no, I am not Angie Peterson Phillips.
As I said, I do not go on facebook generally to get information, as I do not like to be distracted by public opinion, personal information such as who wasn't getting along with who, rumors, info about the individual's character (true or untrue). Others find this useful. I don't. I like to concentrate on the language and facts of the case as much as possible.

Sus said...

Lynda,
I question some of your assertions. I'm not even bothering with Anjelina and KM.

You say Trina told you certain things on SM, one being that, "Trina and Jessica had not gotten along for sometime and were estranged...." I also saw Trina's comments on FB. This was not among them. This was the story Trina's so-called friend told on backward guy's page. You do understand that ggp lives with Trina, right? And that she planned to join them Sunday? So she was aware of the trip and obviously speaking to her daughter.

"Before they got to Leadore, they stopped at a gas station to fill up and get snacks. They proceeded to campsite." Trina said this? I doubt it. Leadore is on the other side of the campsite from Idaho Falls.

"No one had been to that site before except grandpa and herself." No. Trina said Jessica and Deorr had not been to it. She did not speak as to Isaac Reinwand.

"he hitched up there" This again, seems to be added or inferred by you. Trina actually said ggp pulled his camper by his Suburban and never mentioned hitching it.

"Jessica made a point of calling her mother and telling her she needed 'feminine items' "It was 10 am or so" I never read where Trina said a time the family called her to say they were going in town. She gave a time Jessica called her that they were leaving Leadore.

"but nobody confiscated the diaper." Did Trina say this? That's not what I read. She said exactly where she threw it away and that she made LE aware of it. My educated guess is that there were no other babies in the search party and LE had no problem locating the diaper.

Buckley covered 15 minutes.

"Police did not treat this as a crime scene for days." I really don't know what you mean by this.

"The RSO woman at the bar is the one who spread the creamains." This is patently false. The sheriff was asked if she did and he answered no.

Could you please tell me when Trina said the deputy sheriff is Jessica's uncle? There is one employee at the sheriff's office named Mitchell and that might be why the rumor began. I have seen no evidence that Chief Deputy Penner is related.

Sus said...

Anjelina and KM,
If you are really interested and truly just found out about Little Deorr, then go back on this blog and read over Peter's previous SA. There are many posts and comments.

Anonymous said...

I think that poor baby is still up there.
Grandpa never followed him and assumed he went over the bank towards his parents. He could have went anywhere. I think the parents are acting guilty because they feel terrible for whatever sight seeing expedition they went on and now he is gone.
They have guilt bc they know they left him with someone that didn't keep an eye on him (whether grandpa knew or not he should have been watching him, I don't know. If he thought he was watching him and that was confirmed I can't see why he wouldn't have followed him down the bank) and now he is gone.
I think he fell into the water, and bc there were wolves, bears in the area, possibly carried off after he drowned.
I don't think Isaac had anything to do with it.
I don't think Grandma had anything to do with it.

Those are my guesses.

Anonymous said...

Sus,

May I please ask what I said that bothered you? I have made no wild claims, and I would like to know what you take issue with. Thank you.

K.M.

Anonymous said...

And it's easy for both of you to say now, after I told you what to say.

Stop trying to blame Trina, she wasn't there.
Did the parents unintentionally hurt Deorr Jr.?
I don't know. I do not believe they murdered their son.
I have first-hand witnessed the nastiness over sm last night towards their family, and like I said, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

And Angelica/ Angie I find it hard to believe that you stay off fb, considering every post about Trina is coming from your "googling" and just happens to be on Facebook.

Just stop already and let their statements speak for themselves.
Wait for what Peter thinks, instead of wildly speculating about diaper stealing banshees.





Buckley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Angelica said...

Sus,

If LE had found the diaper this would be known information as it would place baby DeOrr at the campsite and would get rid of enormous amounts of confusion. LE does not believe baby DeOrr is up at the campsite any longer. Why wouldn't Trina say that the diaper had been located by LE rather than simply saying that she made all the LE officers aware of the information that she had thrown it out?
I doubt she threw it away and then ran right up to an officer and said "hey I just threw the diaper away in that bag right there!"
Trina herself is not stating that it was ever found.

The sheriff does not believe that it was a stranger abduction. This case is complicated because statistically, the first person you want to look at in a case of a missing child is that last person who saw that child. In this case, Mom and Dad thought he was with Grandpa and Grandpa's friend. Grandpa and friend thought he was with Mom and Dad. Who saw him last? We have 4 people who may have seen him last. We have at least one person who knew of their whereabouts and evidently had been planning to join them.
So, there is nothing outlandish about looking at any of these 5 people statistically as possible suspects.

Another thing that is even more remote statistically is that 4 people are keeping quiet about a crime happening to a child. Statistically it is much more likely that one person (or two at most) are keeping quiet.

The case is truly bizarre in many ways and I don't think anyone should be faulted for trying different angles to solve it.


Buckley said...

Yes- Peter's work on this case has been excellent. It not only reveals a lot about the case, but how it evolves from first impressions of the parents to the post on accidental death, it reveals to us a lot about the process of SA- starting by believing but questioning, expanding our perception of the parents as they talk...

Like Ayla and Maddie. Like Lisa and Hailey and Kyron. Too many more- we may never know the exacts of their fates- we do know much about those who were supposed to care for them. Peter has honored little DeOrr just as well.

Anonymous said...

I take exception to that. You are accusing me of being Kellen Marston because my initials are K.M.?

I posted on this blog long before DeOrr disappeared. I am interested in statement analysis, and K.M. are my initials. I am a woman.

I try to keep my posts focused to statement analysis. I post on other topics.

Please let me know how I blamed Trina, I made it perfectly clear I think the sensitivity in her comments comes from wanting to defend her daughter and wanting to keep people searching for DeOrr.

This is the only site I have posted on about this case.

Cordiality and questions don't mean I agree with the ideas posted on here.

K.M.

Angelica said...

Anon, most of my information was gleaned from watching youtube videos of interviews as I like to see statements/interviews made firsthand as well as watching news stories as well as getting information here. I don't recall any facebook information coming up in my googling, if it did, I was not aware it came from facebook as I don't even remember seeing anything come up from facebook.
The only thing I (kind of) saw from facebook is when I googled the name you accused me of being to see who you were talking about and it brought up facebook pages that brought up nothing because when I clicked on them it said "information no longer here" (page removed I guess).



You keep saying Trina wasn't there? HOw do you know?

Anonymous said...

As I said, I do not go on facebook generally to get information, as I do not like to be distracted by public opinion, personal information such as who wasn't getting along with who, rumors, info about the individual's character (true or untrue). Others find this useful. I don't. I like to concentrate on the language and facts of the case as much as possible."

Angelica - September 14, 2015 at 12:22 AM

"K.M.
Thought-provoking points. I guess where I'm coming from, I'm trying to put myself inside of Trina's head and assuming she could have any number of psychopathologies (not saying she does but IMO if you are dealing with an incident of this magnitude, you have to assume that as a possibility in any of the players (criminal mindedness): Trina shows up to the campsite and searchers are there searching for any sign of baby DeOrr, who has "vanished", so what does she do? She throws the one sign of his presence there away.

Possible motive: Feelings of aggression towards searchers? Trying to create chaos/confusion by tampering with something that had "belonged" to baby DeOrr? If high intelligence, knowing she was removing the one sign that would prove his presence there leading LE and the public to question whether he was ever really there which would absolutely cause increased suspicion on both her daughter and baby DeOrr's Dad. Baby DeOrr's confirmed presence there would lead LE to be forced to question whether it was a wild animal, accidental drowning, baby wonders off and just cant be found, perhaps moved by wild animal etc. indefinitely Once you place doubt whether he was even there, then these 2 are never going to be able to escape suspicion.

Trina did then tell LE about disposing of the diaper but this is utterly useless information unless the diaper could be found, which it won't be"

Angelica September 13, 2015 at 11:34 pm


Really???
I don't know that she wasn't there, but I know this....I'm not going to put her there when LE hasn't.

Thanks.

Sus said...

It's too bad you are having to defend yourself and prove who you are. I apologize for that. If you've been here as long as you say, then you know how the trolls appear in big cases. There's much wild speculation being thrown out tonight. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown you in the mix.

Anonymous said...

Lynda, Thanks for posting the info about Trina and the disappointing news that East Idaho News.com will probably not release the full video of the last interview with the family.

A few things that are a little confusing, not sure what is accurate:

10:08pm Lynda said "mom/dad/baby slept in the bed of truck" I have read in numerous places transcripts of Trina's posts that indicate mom/dad/baby slept in grandpa's suburban, not the bed of the truck.

10:15pm Lynda said "The RSO woman at the bar is the one who spread the cremains". I have read in numerous places that according to Sheriff Bowerman, (RSO) Rebecca Cox was not the one who spread the cremains.

Anonymous said...

Thank you very much, Sus. I appreciate you saying that. I realize that many speculative posts have been addressed to me, but that is in the vein of disagreement. I try to be polite and receptive, and I hope that doesn't come across as agreement.

I know the trolls come out in big cases, and it normally wouldn't bother me, but I don't want people to think I am Kellen Marston. I don't want people to disregard what I say because they think I am some backwards speech lunatic.

Thanks again for your response.

K.M.

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

RE: Deejay Sept.13 @ 8:28 p.m.
Very good post!

Your comment " No way a 2 year old spends time at a campsite without leaving DNA all over. Confused." reminded me of something. Everyone remember the initial unedited interview DeOrr & Jessica gave(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358)?

DeOrr stated that baby DeOrr was a mover("He's pretty small for his age, but he moves pretty good...."). Additionally, in the next sentence DeOrr says "He,uh,was right with us, I mean where it's at...". Moreover, DeOrr reiterates how mobile baby DeOrr is a little later with "He's a goer and a mover, but he does not go away from his parents, he does not.". Deorr continues with "This child loses stuff. He's two, almost three. Anybody who has a child in that age range knows, he leave they leave trails, they lose stuff, they -Jessica: "Shoes fall off"- ...". Minutes later in that same interview DeOrr states emphatically that "He [baby DeOrr] will trip over them [his monkey, his blanket, and his cup] if he has to, but they are going with him...".

Yet, there is absolutely no trace of little DeOrr at the campground. No scent trails, no "trails", no blood/Saliva/DNA/decomp, no clothing fibers/shoes/pieces of shoe, no ground disturbances evidencing an animal attack or any evidence of a struggle of any kind, no drag marks...Nothing. Even though DeOrr states "He was over, he was with Grandpa getting ready for a nap." and Jessica states "He was with my Grandfather." Having been at that campsite for 14 hours (9:30 Thursday night through 1:30 Friday afternoon-2 hour trip to store Friday), there should have been a lot of scent info at the least.

Anonymous said...

Here is a link to a comment I made on a blog post on May 3rd, if anyone needs further confirmation that I am not Kellen Marston.

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/05/catching-scammer-on-ebay-using.html

My signed comment is second from the top.

K.M.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, I accept your apology. I understand how the initials K.M. might put people on red alert in this thread.

K.M.

Seenthisbefore said...

I wouldn't let "Sus" get to you KM. Sus is a woman of many personas one of which is a sockpuppet named imagrandma. Sus herself is a troll who tries to peg people against each other.

Anonymous said...

The worst thing you can do is take "Sus" seriously. She thrives on it as well as creating controversy by pegging people against each other. She's a very sophisticated and clever troll.

Anonymous said...


Sus said to KM

"It's too bad you are having to defend yourself and prove who you are. I apologize for that. If you've been here as long as you say, then you know how the trolls appear in big cases. There's much wild speculation being thrown out tonight. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown you in the mix."

Ironically Sus, you're the one who tried to make her defend herself by making a snotty comment to her. Maybe you should stop acting like you dominate the board. I personally don't care what your opinion is because you regularly disrespect people.

Anonymous said...

As the anon that said I'm sorry @ 1:57 and I am sorry I will admit when I am wrong- I did not write the above posts attacking Sus!!!
I enjoy Sus posts.

I'm going to start signing in.
Or maybe just giving up this thread altogether!!

Trolling on!!
ugh!!!

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Watching this video (yet again) and noticing that for all her sniffling, Jessica is not actually crying.

When we are upset and cry, we instinctively wipe our eyes, swipe at the tears running down our cheeks, and must blow or wipe our noses. People who wear glasses opt to either wipe up under them or just give up and take them off, as the heat from the tears becomes trapped between the glass and the face and fogs up the glasses/makes condensation. When eyeglass wearers cry, their wet eyelashes tend to smudge up the glass as well. Jessica makes no move whatsoever to wipe her eyes or her face, lift her glasses or take them off to dissipate the fog or clean them. I might have missed it, but I didn't see her free either hand (or even attempt to) in order to wipe her nose in any way. Actually, I didn't see her attempt to free her hands at any portion of this interview. This is unexpected from someone who is sniffling loudly and repeatedly throughout the interview and making "crying" faces. This is twice as unexpected in a televised interview, a many women don't like to be seen in public crying.

This is probably going to earn me some haters, but I found myself questioning why she was there. Her determination to look down throughout the interview is blatantly obvious. She adds nothing to the conversation, nor does she interact with any family member (nodding in agreement to comments, adding to comments, looking to either DeOrr or Trina for support/comfort or to offer her support/comfort). In my unprofessional opinion, she doesn't look distraught...she looks angry and uncooperative. I'm seriously wondering if Trina and DeOrr pressured her to do this interview and she's mad, given the way she's rigidly sandwiched between them (i.e. captive) and Trina has her by intertwined arm and hand, while DeOrr has her by the arm and hand. Everyone else on that couch looks fairly comfortable. However, she literally refuses to make eye contact with any of them. At one point she begins to lift her head and eyes to the interviewer/camera and sort of catches herself and immediately looks down again (1:52-1:57).

If she's that grief-stricken, she really should be under a doctor's care and at home or somewhere she can be taken care of by others...not sitting in an interview. If it's public perception or SM she/they are worried about, she should be under doctor's care and the interviewer could state that after his lead-in. Having her there like that, after all the family ranting and raving on SM, is not going to garner her or them much sympathy, support, or trust IMO.

Juliet said...

Refresher -or what Trina Actually Said :)
part one...

Her Local News 8 Facebook comments (as found, copied and pasted by me on August 1 directly from the FB, so they are accurate, though not necessarily in the order she posted them - there may have been more but these were as many as I got)
-----

Trina Bates Clegg My father is 76 and on oxygen 24 hours and not in good health. Don't ever say anything about my Dad unless you got facts. He is very cooperative and has done is pologragh.
Like · 2 · 10 hrs · Edited


Trina Bates Clegg If you have questions ask!!!!!!! I'm the grandma to Baby DeOrr and my Dad was the last one to see Baby DeOrr
Like · 2 · 10 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg They had to go to Leadore for female items and bought my Dad and baby DeOrr candy. This has been verified by the cashier
Like · 2 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg My Dad has lung problems. Since this my father has been very upset and emotionally struggling.

I have been informed Isaac was at the creek but the interview he stated something different
Like · 2 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg Everyone seems to have opinions how about hiking boots to be with us for the last 21 days?
Like · 1 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg I DO NOT FEEL ATTACKED BY ANY TONIGHT ON THIS
Like · 24 · 5 hrs

Amber Silvers Trina, if you dont mind answering..When did they decide to go camping? Was this a planned trip or spur of the moment? Just wondering how many people knew of their plans?
Like · 4 hrs
Trina Bates Clegg My Dad's suburban and camper, Isaac rode the with my Dad slept in a tent, DeOrr Sr truck they slept in the back of my Dad's suburban with Baby DeOrr
Like · 3 · 4 hrs

Juliet said...

Part two

Trina Bates Clegg My Dad's suburban and camper, Isaac rode the with my Dad slept in a tent, DeOrr Sr truck they slept in the back of my Dad's suburban with Baby DeOrr
Like · 3 · 4 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg They decided to go about a week prior to
Like · 3 · 4 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Call Lemhi County about searching. I'd like to know what they say (HONESTLY) I don't ask I just go and search
Like · 6 · 9 hrs


Asia Payne Can you let everyone know when it was that you were with him last (when you referenced his diaper)?
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg His diaper was from Friday morning at the camp site
Like · 1 · 9 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Baby DeOrr wanted to "stay with grandpa". My Dad seen him playing in the dirt and then he said he looked over and he was gone so he thought Baby DeOrr had walked to his parents. When DeOrr Sr. came to get him my father was in shock.
Like · 6 · 9 hrs · Edited

Trina Bates Clegg I know my daughter, Jessica, DeOrr Sr and my father have completed their polygraph test and I understood have done Isaas' but I personally can't verify

If I don't answer your questions please understand I'm likely to loose signal.


Trina Bates Clegg They arrived at the camp site Thursday night about 930pm
Like · 6 · 8 hrs

Juliet said...

Part three

Asia Payne Trina Bates Clegg - it's seems like the national media hasn't covered your grand baby's story very much....I'm sure it's been excruciatingly frustrating for your family!! Hundreds of people would very much like to help you all get the national attention your grandbaby deserves!!! Have national media outlets been declining to cover the story??
Like · 1 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg We were told to hold off on the media due to all the negativity and it is taking the focus off of my grandson and him being located
Like · 4 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Creek is 20'-30' from camp area
Like · 3 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg All 5 arrived at the camp area at approximately 930pm
Like · 4 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I was told Isaac was at creek but his interview was different. My Dad said Isaac was fishing at the creek
Like · 8 · 8 hrs


Nichola Stanhope Thank you Trina.
Like · 1 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg The stories are very painful because we are asking for thoughts and plans and they say they are looking and maps and then this report came out today. I'm at a loss too
Like · 9 · 8 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg I've been there on foot and four wheelers and there is no sign. I pray for answers


Trina Bates Clegg I was not there until about 448 pm Friday afternoon after I heard
Like · 6 · 8 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg Jessie Morrison I'm not pointing any fingers because if I'm wrong I have to ask for forgiven from God. The cops have been very quite since the FBI arrived
Like · 11 · 7 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg I have understood the search will be extended to 10 miles now
Like · 8 · 7 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg A truck had the back window broke out at about 3pm Saturday very close to the location and an EMT bag stolen from it
Like · 6 · 7 hrs

Juliet said...

Part four

Trina Bates Clegg DeOrr is not autistic.
Like · 8 · 6 hrs

Trina Bates Clegg They arrived Thursday night at approximately 930pm. The media needs to get the complete story.
Like · 5 · 6 hrs

Heidi Bishop Was the EMT bag taken from an ambulance, or a non medical vehicle?

Trina Bates Clegg Pickup truck as I was informed from the the officers


Trina Bates Clegg Misty River no warrants they are fully cooperating
Like · 6 · 6 hrs


Trina Bates Clegg Unaware about Isaac's house very quite since FBI arrived

-------
At a later unknown date:

Local News 8
Nikki Fields I still don't get how a little boy disappears from a camp site when they said there was 5 adults watching him. Lie detector or not, something is fishy. I would have NEVER let my kids out of my sight no matter where I am. I just pray this little boy is found alive and safe.
Like · Reply · 32 · Yesterday at 00:54

Trina Bates Clegg 5 adults???????
Like · 3 · Yesterday at 01:23

-----

Juliet said...

Part five

Other sources:

Anonymous said...
Trina Bates Clegg: I have made contact with both organizations [Klaas Kids and Elizabeth Smart Foundation]... 14 hrs

https://www.facebook.com/events/489787187855269/

“The sheriff told us in all his history he’s never seen anything like this,” Grandmother Trina Bates Clegg said. (Unknown)

Trina Bates Clegg "Mindy- I, the cops from two different counties and FBI have spoke to my Dad in great detail. Why do you think he is off limits? He has fully complied with everyone in regards to this. Yes it was just my Dad and Isaac in his suburban. I don't speak to Isaac (to be honest I have really never spoke to him much). I feel I am very satisfied with the answers as I look into my daughter and DeOrr's eyes. There are many different ways in and out on dirt bikes, four wheelers and on foot. I am 100% fighting for the answers to this case.

I beg for everyone to come up there and look around. I feel there are people living off the grid in the area and know everything about the area. I'm still unsure about the animal theory but with all the searching why no evidence of it?"

Trina Bates Clegg "My father has severe COPD and Prostate Cancer. The trip is 2 hours. I asked Isaac questions the weekend it happened without getting straight answers.

I believe my daughter misunderstood the question about the video surveillance. We knew they had cameras but didn't know they weren't working is what we have been told.

Jessica, DeOrr and our entire family are not talking to the media due the advise of detectives and our PI. We want more than anything to make every person, place and thing aware of this situation. We need prayers, faith and positivity. I can't explain the pain in our hearts over this. Jessica shutdown her Facebook because of the physical threaths.

Our focus is Baby DeOrr and hi safe return or answers"

------

There are more but these are as many as I can find for now - they were are all retrieved from the comments here.


Anonymous said...

"the sheriff told us..." -don't you think they are being swamped with strange theories ranging from alien abduction, bigfoot, and why weren't signs post stating wild animals could be in the woods and caution should be taken?

The store is not required to provide video surveillance for anyone else's needs outside their own.

The mother stated three items the baby would never be without:
(coaxing for TV?)

The father exclaims no trace as if a magical disappearance occurred.

Had there been ATVs, mini-bikes, etc., there would have been tracks.

Large animals would have left tracks. Small animals maybe not.

If people were living off the grid nearby, the helicopter would have seen people in the area using heat imaging which surely they have for rescue missions.

Hindsight being much clearer, surely they wish now they had not left their child with an elder on heavy medication that couldn't chase after the toddler if needed in an area not covered by a bubble. Sketchy phone service, no medical supplies for anticipated accidents, candy for a wound-up child, and snacks for a back-to-the-basics way of life. Was it a BYOB affair?

The only thing left to do now is tear down the mountain and make it more child friendly.


John mcgowan said...

OT Update:

Chicago PD look into missing Searcy toddler case after finding remains

SEARCY, Ark. (KTHV) - It has been 10 months since then 2-year-old Malik Drummond disappeared from his Searcy home, and investigators from Chicago contacted Searcy police over the weekend regarding the discovery of toddler remains.

The remains of a toddler turned up in a small lagoon in Chicago last week. The remains are described by officials as those from an African American or mixed-race toddler.

Chicago police notified departments nationwide with open missing person cases. They have reportedly spoken with at least two agencies. They notified detectives working Malik's case here in Arkansas on Friday.

Despite the new developments, Searcy police stated on Sunday, September 13 that they do not think the two cases are related.

We have been in contact with Chicago PD Detectives. After speaking with them, there does not appear to be any relation to our case involving Malik Drummond. I can not go into details as to why, because this is another agency's case.

Tanya Drummond, Malik's mother, feared the worst on Sunday morning. ""I was on the phone crying with them, like I was hysterical," said Drummond.

The loss of missing one of her twins has Drummond losing sleep at night. "A part of me has been torn away from me, like I just lost a whole section of me," said Drummond. "I feel empty, like I felt alone."

The thought of possibly losing her child has Drummond looking to Malik's twin sister for strength. She says after 10 months of searching for her son, she is starting to lose hope. "I'm starting to give up faith, like I'm really starting to give up."

THV11's Astrid Solorzano interviews the mother of missing toddler Malik Drummond, Tanya Drummond on where her thoughts are now that it has been 10 months since the disappearance of her son. THV11.com September 13, 2015 KTHV

Officers with the Searcy Police Department are still actively following leads, so if anyone has any information regarding the disappearance of Malik Drummond contact them at (501) 268-3531.

Full interview

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/local/searcy/2015/09/13/chicago-pd-look-into-missing-searcy-toddler-case-after-finding-remains/72236900/

lynda said...

Foolsfeed....That is exactly what I've been saying. You said it much more eloquently than I. I feel the mom can't pull off real crying which is part of the reason she hangs her head and doesn't look at camera. It IS unexpected that mom fake cries for the camera and does not make eye contact or speak. It leads the public to believe that there was no where in the whole interview that she spoke or looked up otherwise, wouldn't they have televised that portion? Would be much more sympathetic and garner more support for parents IMO.

"Watching this video (yet again) and noticing that for all her sniffling, Jessica is not actually crying.

When we are upset and cry, we instinctively wipe our eyes, swipe at the tears running down our cheeks, and must blow or wipe our noses. People who wear glasses opt to either wipe up under them or just give up and take them off, as the heat from the tears becomes trapped between the glass and the face and fogs up the glasses/makes condensation. When eyeglass wearers cry, their wet eyelashes tend to smudge up the glass as well. Jessica makes no move whatsoever to wipe her eyes or her face, lift her glasses or take them off to dissipate the fog or clean them. I might have missed it, but I didn't see her free either hand (or even attempt to) in order to wipe her nose in any way. Actually, I didn't see her attempt to free her hands at any portion of this interview. This is unexpected from someone who is sniffling loudly and repeatedly throughout the interview and making "crying" faces. This is twice as unexpected in a televised interview, a many women don't like to be seen in public crying"

Bubbles said...

Angelica, may I respectfully request that you go back to the beginning here and read all the previous posts and comments about DeOrr? There is a lot of info there to help you familiarize yourself with the case, and you will also then know what links and info have already been posted so you're not re-posting links that were discussed weeks ago.

After you do so, then hop back on this thread with your comments and questions, and the discussion will be much better.

Thanks.

Juliet said...

Some of Trina's comments differ somewhat to how they have been recalled further up the thread. I find, in re-reading them that the day the EMT bag was stolen was Saturday around 3pm, which sort of (completely) puts the kibosh on my theory that DeOrr lifted it on the way back to the camp on the Friday to meld in with SAR. I still think it possible that it was DeOrr, and for that purpose; by the Saturday, and with still no trace of little DeOrr, the heat would have been on with regard to what else might have happened to him, and DeOrr might still have had reason to try to avoid questioning for as long as possible, and to have taken the bag in order to pass himself off as SAR. . The orange insect repellant can (or whatever it might have been) was, I believe, located on the Friday, in which case it couldn't have been from the EMT bag. Then again, they are quite good at not being quite clear as to what day and time things really happened, so it's still possible - but as anything's possible, so what?

Going on recall is not reliable; even when it's in print on the page, it's all too easy to leave the page and to 'remember' reading what isn't there, even something quite different, or what we maybe just wanted to read, because it's convenient to how we are thinking. I think to take more care to check and double check, as it's all too easy to misrepresent people or what they have said.

---

Still no timeline, nor effort towards making one - well, I was distracted by the Trina misrememberings, then went to sleep.

MzOpinion8d said...

A comment about Jessica's nails: that is a professional acrylic nail job, and it is one of the trendy styles where the nail bed is natural color and the tips are painted a color - black, in this case. It's definitely NOT just old polish that's grown out. Does this mean much? Not really, but it's worth noting considering she doesn't have a job and most salons charge $25-50 or more for that service. How is she paying for that?

Someone noted they thought both parents had lost a lot of weight. I think they may have lost a bit but it's not drastic. She's a known meth user - weight loss is pretty common with that, too.

I agree with the person who posted they think Jessica is pissed about being there, not sad.

Anonymous said...

grandma says "that little boy" brings to my mind the Anthony grandma calling Kaylee, "that little girl"

Buckley said...

Sus is one of the best commenters and is as fair as they come.

lynda said...

Juliet...with all due respect, I "misremembered" Jessica not adding 15 minutes when she said 10 minutes. As far as Trina goes, there are other ways to communicate that are NOT on FB for all the world to see so I didn't "misremember' anything. That's all I'm going to say about that, I should have never put it out there that I had communicated with her. I think we can all agree that Trina was NOT there, anything she said that she was not witness to was told TO her and she is repeating. The distraction is people throwing into the ring that she was there and she is the culprit. There are no facts to support that.

In regards to Jessica's inward lip rolling being perhaps a side effect from medication. I believe it is not. It's purposeful, not involuntary. I have been in medicine over 30 years, tardive dyskinesia comes from the use of anti-psychotics, haldol, reglan, some antiemetics, respiradone,anti depressants, xanax, amongst other. Jessica may be on any of these or none. TD is generally much more prevalent in the elderly and in people under 60 it usually takes up to 3 months for them to start displaying TD. Without going into pharmacology and what does and does not cause tardive dyskinesia, it is characterized by repetitive oral, facial, and lingual movements resembling grimacing, chewing, lip smacking, tongue protrusion (fly-catching), writhing movements of the tongue, or lateral tongue movements in the floor of the mouth (bon-bon sign. Lip rolling such as jessica is seen doing is not one of them. I have never personally seen or read in anyones chart about inward lip rolling. Lip smacking, while perhaps considered similar, there is a definite "smacking" sound that accompanies.I defer to the body language experts as to what it means when someone inward lip rolls but I personally and professionally do not think it is being done because of any medication she is on.

Angelica said...

Bubbles,

Thanks, I have familiarized myself with the case, and I am sure people got over me reposting a few videos that may have already been posted. I actually was referring to specific things that had been said or observed in the video, so reposting them would have been appropriate regradless. I apologize if I was busy this summer and was not visiting the blog for a few months. I am caught up on the case now, but thank you for your concern.

Juliet said...

Lynda - personally, I don't think Jessica was pretending to cry, I think she had the sniffles, maybe the beginning or end of a cold - she's bound to be run down. I think she is not given to crying in public - at the vigil, she buried her head in DeOrr's shoulders. Some would insist that was in order to hide that there weren't any tears - I'd say it's as likely that she cannot bear to be seen crying, and so she controls or hides it, and probably has the ability to not cry if she decides she is not going to, and if she has time to think about the situation in which she intends not to cry - some people have more control over it than others. What does crying signify to one person, or another - I think there are no laws on it? To one, crying in public is a spontaneous and uncontrollable expression of their feelings, be it distress, relief, joy - to another it represents an alarming loss of dignity and self-control. Without knowing the person, their history, or background, it is perhaps too easy to misread them and make snap judgements. I don't know what is going on in Jessica's mind, or if she knows what has happened - only that she has lost her child, and I suspect she might know what happened. I find it difficult to believe she is not crying because she does not care about her child, nor for what the public thinks. Still, I don't see her pretending to cry, I think she'd make more effort - to my eyes, she's sniffing, and very likely on medication. How do we know that she didn't cry at other points during the interview, anyway? We don't - but even if she didn't, I still find the expectation that she should and must cry in order to satisfy demand, all too demanding - people are not all wired in the same way. I think she didn't want to be there, but was compelled. I think she doesn't want to be scrutinised, have unexpected questions sprung, or seem too capable of responding very much - maybe she's presenting herself in that shrinking way because she wants to appear too vulnerable for the interview, or maybe it's because she genuinely is too wrecked by it all to be able to be there without her parents and DeOrr to hold her hands.

I think, if she wanted to pretend to cry she could do a much better job than that? No tissues, no intention to cry, or even pretend to cry? Maybe I missed the tissues.

What about Trina's wavering edge of tears voice, is that actually necessary throughout in an adult? It isn't, but it's often produced for the camera. That's not to say she isn't devastated by the loss of her grandson, but that she also finds it important that the viewers should be aware of it, probably because there was not much contact between her and the missing baby, which must be an extra source of pain - poor woman, she must be going through hell, even more for not being convinced of the truth of what she has been told, but I do find it annoying when someone tries to convince me of something beyond that which seems necessary.

Anonymous said...

One question: What woman would want to go camping away from public utilities such as water and electricity when she has a child dirtying diapers,a old man who is incapacitated, and a friend who most likely can't care for himself and she herself is likely to be starting her monthly? Cooking, cleaning and making them all comfortable when they'd rather sleep on the rocks and dress up like mountaineers or at least GI Joe.

Bet he holds her hand to keep her from beating him fitless.

Lil Man was not. The cowboy hat doesn't make him rugged anymore than the skull and cross bones, and the trinkets purchased at lodges.

Juliet said...

Lynda - well, it is the case that what you recounted is not quite the same as what Trina wrote in public Facebook posts, which is all there is to compare without our being privy to your personal communications, so you can see where I am coming from, I hope, on that.

Re the facial movements and medication, I have seen this, closely over years, and it is the same - it can affect young people, and yes, it can appear within a few short months. So, while I don't wish to contradict you, I say Jessica's facial movements look the same as those I have seen in a young person, and which were attributed by the mental health experts prescribing them to side effects from two of the drugs you mentioned.

Still, as said earlier, it does not have to be the cause of them, though it could be. It is a suggestion rather than a statement of fact.



lynda said...

Juliet...I certainly see where you're coming from. It wasn't public I thought I could just clarify some things by what I've been told but it shouldn't have entered this arena as we should be dealing in just the facts, ma'am. :)

Personally, when watching the tape closely, she inward rolls just her bottom lip and it seems to be in direct result to what someone is saying. She is also trying to pull off fake crying.If I were "charting" her I would not chart that she had involuntary lip smacking associated with TD. It also is rarely just "one" symptom and everything is involuntary. They can't control it. I believe jessica is highly controlled.

The point I was making regarding crying was not that she wasn't. You are correct. Alot of people don't cry or don't cry in public. I would not say a mom with a missing child that wasn't crying isn't that big of concern. I believe you would become numb after awhile if for no other reason than just to survive. It was the fact that she was PRETENDING to cry. That is unexpected and needs to be noted. I know in SA we just look at speech..Peter has said the tone, body language, etc. while helpful, isn't a part of SA but since we were looking at a video, it is unexpected. She expects that people want her to cry. It would make her look more sympathetic and grief-stricken which would equal innocence in her mind perhaps. She tried and failed miserably. When she starts sniffing at around 0:36 there wasn't even anything to sniff audibly. Her nose wasn't running from tears or mucus from a cold. Dry sniff. She's pretending. I firmly believe that and it makes it unexpected therefore, important. I stated before that I would have hoped had she said anything or was sobbing during interview, Nate would have played that as it would tug at the heart strings, make better "story". People emotionally basket cases make great TV, sad but true.

Trigger said...

Deorr Sr. is still trying to control the information...big red flag.

When is he going to use first person singular "I" when he talks about his thoughts concerning his missing son? When is he going to give a reliable statement?

This is the same deceptive "you" in statements that Phoebe DiPietro used when the subject was her missing grandchild Ayla. She tried to get her media audience to believe that she was in the house the night Ayla went missing. She got caught lying and was chastised publicly.

DeOrr Sr. is deceptive in my opinion just like Phoebe was.

Anonymous said...

People often lie to save face. It's not like he could say: I had no way of knowing dirty diapers and blood would be wolf bait. Not with all the manly equipment I've amassed.

Sus said...

It's as Peter stated. Look at the context. Trina distances herself from Little Deorr, but we know she never was involved much in his life.

She does not distance herself from her daughter. This is where she uses "I need." Trina is there to bring her daughter's son back to her.

To a point, it's the same with Deorr Sr, as he is an extension of her daughter, the father of Jessica's son. But that is to a point. By adding "SO he can raise him." she has stated something is sensitive to her about Deorr Sr raising Little Deorr. Or maybe it was in the past and now she's willing to accept it. Or maybe that's why Jessica gave up custody. Who knows? Something is sensitive to Trina about Deorr Sr raising Little Deorr.

I have always thought in parts of the first interview Deorr Sr was speaking to Trina. That his bravado was to tell his mother-in-law he would find Little Deorr. That it is Trina that looks down upon him and his relationship with her daughter.

I think there is much context to consider when one looks at what's said by this family.

Sus said...

Thank you.

John mcgowan said...

Nonverbal Communication Analysis # 2404:

Internal Lip Roll and other Body Language
associated with Suppression of Sadness


The inward
lip roll is a nonverbal sign of increased anxiety and stress. It often has a component of anger or sadness.
This body language signals that the emotional brain is attempting to down-regulate the negative emotion.
The lips are an extremely sensitive tissue and touching one or both with the hand/fingers, tongue, teeth
or other lip is an example of a manipulator/adaptor/pacifier.

http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2013/05/nonverbal-communication-analysis-2304.html

http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2011/09/negotiation-secret-322-inward-lip-roll.html

lynda said...

Thank you John

I wonder if there is a difference in body language analysis when you just roll or suck in your bottom lip instead of rolling and pressing both lips?

Reader from Finland said...

OT:

I’m wondering is it possible to do analysis of the person who is not native english speaker? What do you think of this statement?

Link for the video:
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015091220339052_uu.shtml

Thank you for the help!

ima.grandma said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I just want to say I have no problem with Sus, and I enjoy her posts. I did not write the negative posts about her, and I do not endorse them.

K.M.

ima.grandma said...

FYI
Snipped: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/kunz-family-private-investigator-receives-solid-tip-on-toddlers-disappearance/
IDAHO FALLS – A private investigator working with the family of DeOrr Kunz Jr. says he’s working several “solid leads” that could lead to information on the missing Idaho Falls toddler.

Frank Vilt, a retired US Marshal, says he recently received information on his tip line about a potential person of interest and a possible suspect vehicle. He is waiting to consult with Lemhi and Bonneville County detectives, before releasing specific details to the public.

teamsus

Anonymous said...

He's waiting to see if the federal agents currently working in the area will okay his plan of action prior to releasing details to the public. Do they really want all those media wannabes in the area prior to bad weather? Can the sheriff's dept. handle the extra crime? Have they tracked down all the volunteers and done demographic research in their place of residence? Can they handle the crime?

I am concerned about the potatoes.

Jessica Blans said...

Anonymous at 3:14PM

I think you are one of my favorite recent posters (you've made a number of comments, not just this one.) Your first sentence often sucks me in and I think I'm reading about the case, but then you introduce random topics within well-written sentences. It makes me smile.

We're not supposed to feed the trolls, but what if they are cute? And cuddly?

Jessica Blans

Sus said...

Omg. Ima.grandma, I just saw your signature. :-) As long as your still passing out vodka and appetizers, we're a team!

So someone has bitten on the $10,000 already. Does anyone have any thoughts how that $10,000 was raised? That's the usual amount the FBI fronts. I don't know if that's a coincidence, or not.

Anonymous said...

Sus,

I think Trina may have said that the FBI is doing the reward. Here is what she said:

Trina Bates Clegg I have 100% confidence he was at the camp site I threw away his soiled diaper in the churches garbage and all officers have that information. As far as we have been informed The FBI has to do the reward.

Note: This is from SM comments that have been reposted on different sites, for everyone's consideration of reliability.

I don't know the rules about rewards and the FBI, but it sounded to me that Trina was saying that any reward would be offered by the FBI. I'm not sure though.

K.M.

Anonymous said...

Yes someone bit. But the "tipster" is being paid to lie to police.

Sus said...

I remember Trina saying that, also. But, of course, that is not true. Many a person or private group offers rewards. I think it is strange she said it, there was no reward, now when the FBI report is due, BAM. There is a reward for the standard amount the FBI offers.

I guess I'll go further and state I wonder if that FBI report is already in.

Sus said...

Agreed.

Anonymous said...

Sooooo...TBC says the campground is the last place "we" saw him. Everyone is speculating that might mean she was there before he disappeared.

But what if it is simply what she says...the last place they saw him. She didn't say "the last place we saw him ALIVE." Could she have seen his body there?

Jessica Blans said...

SM blowing up over reports that a family with blonde kids reported a creepy man was staring at their kids too....

Anonymous at 4:55pm -- I don't even want to consider it...

Jessica Blans

Buckley said...

Trina says "it's the last place we seen that baby; it's the last place we known where that baby was..."

If what she wants us to know is that she and others actually saw him why does she add the second statement? Is it possible she realized that by saying "we seen" she is not being truthful and adds/corrects to "last place we known where he was"?

Angelica said...

Buckley wrote:

Trina says "it's the last place we seen that baby; it's the last place we known where that baby was..."

If what she wants us to know is that she and others actually saw him why does she add the second statement? Is it possible she realized that by saying "we seen" she is not being truthful and adds/corrects to "last place we known where he was"?

She corrected herself because she realized she gave away the fact that she was there.
Pronouns are instinctive, and the "correction" proves she was not just being "benevolent" by stating that "we seen".
Think back to the case where Peter pointed out the perpetrator stated "we were losing light" incriminating himself as being with the rape victim at that time.

John mcgowan said...

OT:

Video: Parents plead for return of missing daughter
The parents of the missing Neline van Zyl have pleaded for the return of their daughter.


http://mobserver.co.za/34426/parents-plead-for-return-of-missing-daughter/

Sus said...

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/kunz-family-private-investigator-receives-solid-tip-on-toddlers-disappearance

"...the FBI collected several items from everyone at the campsite, including an ax and coveralls from Walton."

Whoa, their PI isn't fooling around, is he? He's ready to throw it all out there.

Angelica said...

Quoted from above poster who posted this info:

Trina Bates Clegg Jessie Morrison I'm not pointing any fingers because if I'm wrong I have to ask for forgiven from God. The cops have been very quite since the FBI arrived
Like · 11 · 7 hrs

Trina said " I'm not pointing any fingers BECAUSE if I'm wrong I have to ask for forgiven by God."

SCAN would highlight "because" above in above statement making what comes before the "because" sensitive.

Therefore, "I'm not pointing any fingers" becomes sensitive.

It is also stated in the negative, making it doubly sensitive.


The part of the statement "If I'm wrong I have to ask for forgiven by God".

Oftentimes, it is good to look for "I'm sorry", any type of "apology", asking for forgiveness from God would qualify. Oftentimes this can be indicators of some type of guilt. Does she know who really harmed DeOrr? That would make someone feel guilty if they were withholding the information while fingers get "pointed".

Juliet said...

Jessica - where on SM are they getting frenzied over a creepy man staring at their kids? Just wondering if it's genuine in origin or a distraction from that bit more information about what the FBI took away from grandpa. I should imagine there'll be some hysteria over that brewing if it hasn't already begun.

Anonymous said...

Angelica said...

"[Jessica] is the only one not wearing a Find Baby Deorr bracelet."

Odd. Is it not fashionable enough for her, or what??

"I wonder if there is some kind of wound/scar on her hand she doesn't want seen that may be related to the "disappearance"."

"it just seems she is always trying to keep her left hand covered when there are any type of close-ups. I think she is uncomfortable about the ring on her hand but I could be wrong."

Maybe she has been cutting herself?

Jessica Blans said...

Juliet,

The Facebook groups about Baby DeOrr -- tons of stuff in the past hour.

I don't think we're supposed to post content from closed Facebook groups are we? Lol, I don't know if that is a rule on this site, or just a WS rule? Some of same people on tweeting on private accourts too.

I do have some ss of the comments and copy/pastes of them as well..

Jessica Blans

Jessica Blans said...

I'm looking at all the SM in the past hour and it all seems to be on private lines/closed groups, not public. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when I first posted.

I tried googling the people who are posting and so far they are not showing the info on their public sites.

Jessica Blans

Anonymous said...

Jessica Blans, I think that's just a WS rule. Pleeeaaaaasssee post......

Jessica Blans said...

Ok. But only because my crime group Facebook account is fake.
I think this is easiest piece for me to post for you to see. I think it'll make sense on its own. I cut the names. One of the main people in the exchange below is a psychic or astrologer or something. Evidently she's in contact with Lemhi LE and the PI Vilt. At the beginning of the conversation they are discussing Backwards Guy, KM, and his recently closed BS Facebook page



-I thought he was shutting it down at certain times when he couldn't monitor it...
Like · Reply · 1 hr
- The family filed a formal complaint with the National Guard against Kellen, or so I was told.
Like · Reply · 2 · 28 mins
_______!!!! I have missed you lady!!
Like · Reply · 28 mins
Shit storm is a coming ladies, hold on to your hats.
Like · Reply · 2 · 27 mins
-What do you think is happening?
Like · Reply · 24 mins
-Remember the staring man?
Like · Reply · 1 · 23 mins
-Yes.....
Like · Reply · 23 mins
- Jessica said he was staring at the baby in the store? well, just a few hours after Frank announced the reward, a tip came in
Like · Reply · 2 · 22 mins
_- what????
Like · Reply · 22 mins
- a couple said that they have 4 blond haired little boys, and they were camping in Swan Lake the weekend after Deorr went missing.
Like · Reply · 2 · 21 mins
- n what was the tip?
Like · Reply · 21 mins
- Where is swan lake?
Like · Reply · 20 mins
- while they were there in town, a man fitting that description was staring at their boys, and even followed them to another store, an ice cream store. They said he was driving a black jeep.
Like · Reply · 1 · 20 mins
- and wouldn't you know, Deorr Sr suddenly remembers a black jeep being at the convenience store the day the baby disappeared. You know, the store with no cameras?
Like · Reply · 2 · 20 mins
- Interesting, very interesting.......so swan lake is in Montana?
Like · Reply · 17 mins
-So I did a chart, and the chart showed that the couple were lying, and were possibly connected to Isaac. I called Frank to tell him what I thought. He started acting very strangely, saying he didn't think Isaac was involved, and he had checked out the family and they were legit. But he slipped up and said something that told me he was covering. I can't share it, but police are aware.
Like · Reply · 3 · 17 mins
- So, I called the Lemhi sheriff's office and told them what I know, what I've been told by the family and what I believed had happened.
Like · Reply · 2 · 16 mins
- Then I called Frank, and told him I had told the police everything, and if he was involved, he need to know that. He was quiet for a few seconds, then he said. Fine, have them call me.
Like · Reply · 2 · 15 mins
- I was surprised, he had been so supportive and said he believed the astrology, but other astrologers had been telling me that the parents charts looked hinky, and I finally managed to get Deorr Sr.'s birth time, and it showed us much more. But I didn't share these suspicions with Frank.
Like · Reply · 2 · 13 mins
Here is what I think happened
Like · Reply · 1 · 13 mins
- The parents arrived in Leadore at 6pm, and they went to the convenience store.
Like · Reply · 12 mins
- Deorr was throwing a fit.
Like · Reply · 12 mins
- after they left, Deorr Sr lost it and killed the baby in the truck.
Like · Reply · 12 mins
- they asked Isaac to help them, and promised to pay him. That is what the reward is for to pay Isaac off. This couple will probably get part and the rest will go to Isaac
Like · Reply · 11 mins
-They got next to me because the charts show they put him in a mine shaft, and I think it freaked them out that I was so accurate.
Like · Reply · 10 mins
- so when I told Frank the "tipsters" were lying, they tried to shut me up
Like · Reply · 9 mins

Jessica Blans said...

There also comments about how IR posted the Reward info on his FB and the tip was called in within hours of that. People think it was a not-so-subtle hint for the tipsters to come forward.

Jessica Blans

Anonymous said...

Thanks!

DJ said...

Blackbird

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly.
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see.
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free.

Blackbird fly, Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird fly, Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly.
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

Juliet said...

Ha - thanks for that, Angelica, I don't know what the rules are - I go for trial and error, it either gets deleted or it doesn't :) I'm not into astrology/psychics, nor totally dismissive either. It makes for interesting reading, and I'm not overly bothered about the unusual means so long as it causes some forward movement. My first thought was the creepy man story was fake - not in like the McCanns with their swarthy gypsies.

Yours is an interesting comment on Trina's finger pointing remark - it got me looking at it again, and I take from it that Trina doesn't want to suspect her father, daughter or DeOrr - obviously she'd prefer to suspect Isaac, the non family member, but she can't allow herself to say that she does suspect him, despite that fingers are being pointed at Jessica and DeOrr. Does she maybe KNOW that Isaac is not responsible, so she is not going to say it or point fingers herself? She says he said different things and wasn't straight with her, but wasn't prepared to go beyond that. I do suspect that she may have got Isaac and grandpa out there on Thursday night.

I'm not sure that she says anywhere that she does believe that Jessica and DeOrr are NOT responsible for their son's disappearance. Of the comments I know she has made, this would be as close as she has been able to come:

'I feel I am very satisfied with the answers as I look into my daughter and DeOrr's eyes.'

It's so weak - she only feels she is VERY satisfied, plus it leaves the impression of her desperately scanning Jessica and DeOrr's eyes in search of the hidden truth. Also, it suggests that as far as Trina is concerned, it's Jessica and DeOrr who have the answers. It would be great if any of them would share these very satisfying answers with the rest of us sometime. I wonder how there can be any satisfying 'answers' when they apparently don't know how their baby went missing, and while he has yet to be found.

I am thinking that she doesn't believe them, that she may have been called to the campsite and have seen DeOrr, and she is not satisfied with the explanations given as to what happened to him. I think she doesn't necessarily know where he is, but wants his body found so that he can be laid to rest. I wish I knew if that 'the last place we seen him' was really what she meant or if she is trying to share responsibility, as some commenters have said. I want to go with your take on that, as it was my own first understanding of it, too, but I have some reservations due to other commenters finding it to be an attempt to share responsibility.

Anonymous said...

"lynda said"

most of what you have stated is false, definitely NOT told to you by trina!

Anonymous said...

Their PI hunts fugitives and people who have taken their own children. A fugitive may head for the hills so to speak, but would also need supplies not unlike those packed by touring campers.

A person looking to get away with taking their own child would need the cover of another similar looking person to create chaos and exasperation.

All things equal, both have to eat.

Oakley A said...

John Mcgowan
What in the heck is up with that cat???

Angelica said...

Anon @ 6:32,

I agree, I think it is very odd Jessica (Mom) is not wearing a Find Baby DeOrr bracelet. You would certainly think that even if she had some responsibility in his disappearance, she would still have on a bracelet.

That is an excellent observation that maybe she is cutting herself and that may account for her tendency to hide the left hand/wrist.

Other thoughts are she may be (trying) to hide the fact she is not wearing a bracelet or certainly could be (trying) to hide the ring. Is it an engagement ring? Is there someone watching or even someone present there on the stage in the video with the 4 who would not be happy she is wearing the ring?

In my opinion, her not wearing the bracelet is a form of anger/rebellion against those seated around her. There is no arguing against that since all others (Grandma, Daddy Deorr, and Grandpa) are wearing the bracelets, she is, in essence "rebelling" by not wearing one.
I think this speaks to her lack of involvement in baby DeOrr's disappearance, ironically. She is angry about something that has happened, she is angry at those around her. I think she may know the family claiming abduction is a lie.
She knows or suspects something and it is something she doesn't like and it is in those around her.
The ring, too, is something she may not want to be wearing. This may be why she is covering/hiding it. If it is an engagement ring, is there someone there who wants her engaged when she does not want to be?

lynda said...

On eastidahonews they state, "He(PI) is waiting to consult with Lemhi and Bonneville County detectives, before releasing specific details to the public." I seem to recall that in the PI's first interview he said that no one in LE was returning his phone calls. He may be waiting for a long while for LE to get in touch with him regarding his new, timely tip that he can't release to the public yet. Ugh. Isn't the point to FIND DEORR JR?? If it's a good tip, why not tell the world so everyone can be looking?? I truly have no idea what the PI's motivation is here.

Angelica said...

Hi Juliet,

You quoted from Trina

'I feel I am very satisfied with the answers as I look into my daughter and DeOrr's eyes.'

It is very weak, and I think it is worth analyzing also.

She says "the answers" which, as you pointed out, is really saying nothing since there are no "answers"

Note "satisfied" implies content, relaxed. Odd when speaking of a missing toddler.
"very satisfied" weakens the assertion.

Note she says "WITH the answers" rather than "BY the answers"
Her use of the word "WITH" suggests distance between herself and "the answers". It may be because she doesn't like "the answers" or it may be that she does not want to admit what "the answers" are.

"as I look into my daughter and DeOrr's eyes"

I hate to say it, but the first thing that came into my head is that this sounds like a "romantic" line from a love song "As I look into your eyes".

Note: This may suggest fabrication, where an individual is grasping for words that are not sincere and so they are essentially grabbing onto this cliche "as I look into your eyes"

"as I look into my daughter and DeOrr's eyes"

They say the eyes are the windows to the soul, however when 2 people are looking into each other's eyes the view into the soul goes both ways, so that she is seeing into her daughter's eyes and whether her daughter is being honest but also her daughter is seeing into her eyes and is able to perceive her honesty or lack thereof. She has chosen a cliche which brings up the image of 2 people looking at what is happening in each other's eyes. The view goes both ways.

Juliet said...

Maybe Jessica is allergic to silicone or they sold out of bracelets. :)

Seriously, I think she is angry, which is why she can't or doesn't cry, or even pretend to cry. I felt it simmering towards DeOrr in the first interview, too. I wouldn't like to fathom a guess as to why.

Juliet said...

For those teetering towards a possible rabbit-hole, here is Jessica's left arm, and ring:

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/f5165edfa19bcf273643df7b3770f5690bca06dd/r=x404&c=534x401/http/cdn.tegna-tv.com/-mm-/4b91c342951a112ec597dfd05a8345da7b657585/c=445-0-1877-1077/local/-/media/2015/07/16/KTVB/KTVB/635726447852064733-family.JPG


Juliet said...

Angelica, what an interesting analysis - yes, I agree Trina's words sound fabricated - forced, unnatural, something she felt she should say. Has she really looked into their eyes, I wonder - can any of them bear it?

Angelica said...

Thank you Juliet,

It appears to be a large silver ring. I cannot copy and paste it into my phone to expand the image to get a closer look at the ring.
My guess is she is hiding the ring?
What else is on her wrist, it looks to be a tight black elastic band?

Angelica said...

Juliet,

I agree! Her words are unnatural, insincere. The image stuck with me for probably 10 min of her looking into both her daughter and DeOrr's eyes and them looking back into hers and me wondering whose eyes of the 3 are honest, which are dishonest.

Anonymous said...

"Juliet...
Lynda - well, it is the case that what you recounted is not quite the same as what Trina wrote in public Facebook posts,"
thank you for this post juliet this seems to be the norm with some


"Juliet being privy to your personal communications"
interesting


"Lynda
"Juliet...I certainly see where you're coming from. It wasn't public I thought I could just clarify some things by what I've been told but it shouldn't have entered this arena as we should be dealing in just the facts, ma'am. :)"
'obviously' yes do that... very important


"Lynda It wasn't public"
very interesting

Angelica said...

Juliet,

I just rewatched part of the unedited parent interview.

2 observations

1) She really appears to be fuming towards the Dad especially when he is going on and on about how sophisticated their search and rescue equipment is. You can feel the anger coming off her.

2) When the father mentions how "sincere" the searchers are you can see her anger at him and this is where she first "covers" the left hand when he says this word "sincere".
Around 3:35 I noticed something interesting. She wraps her left arm in the blanket creating what looks to be a type of cast and then takes her right hand and holds the "cast". It truly looks like someone with a broken (left) arm. This may be outlandish but I wonder if this hiding of the left hand, "casting" of the left arm could be something "empathic" especially coming from the mother. Did something happen to baby DeOrr's left arm or hand while camping (and obviously preceding the disappearance)? I get the feeling this could be a mother "feeling" what her child felt.

Jessica Blans said...

Has anyone seen this? Its an interview with the woman who came forward recently saying she saw a man creepily staring at her children a week after Baby DeOrr disappeared. This is what my social media was blowing up about yesterday.

http://m.localnews8.com/possible-leads-in-missing-2-year-old-case/35275788

Anonymous said...

Jessica said the man staring at her son was "old." Is 50's considered old? Some people stare because of bad vision.

Anonymous said...

In a population of 110, people stare at newcomers as they are tired of staring at each other.

Anonymous said...

The woman reported the suspicious man to law enforcement back on July 19. So why does Vilt consider this a credible lead two months later?

Angelica said...

Juliet,

You pointed out DeOrr using the term "dead panic".

At 0:45, shortly after he uses that term when he is rambling about searching for DeOrr is "such a small area", did you notice him kind of stumbling over his words and at 0:45 he says "never being there, I knew I was in trouble."

Angelica said...

Sorry wrong thread

lgjproduct said...

http://www.localnews8.com/news/kunz-family-reenacts-toddlers-disappearance/35281146

I just saw this article about the reenactment.

Anonymous said...

"At least you can't disprove that he wasn't abducted,” said Vilt.

Anonymous said...

Now the PI says that JM and DK left DeOrr with GGF in the morning, and GGF at some point went inside his camper, and "may have been distracted". That doesn't match what the Sheriff said. If DeOrr went missing in the morning, what about his trip to the store with his parents "as a family" in the afternoon? Slippage?

Angie Phillips said...

I don't know who the hell you are but saying that Angelia is me is completely wrong!!! I really don't give two shits if you believe me or not! What I do give two shits about is saying in my behalf that I think the grandmother had something to do with this/ in absolutely no way do I think Trina hurt her grandson!! Trina is heartbroken and devastated. I grew up with her and I don't believe she is the monster you are saying she is!!!! If you want to know what I blelive then ask me!! I will tell you straight out that I think Deorr Sr hurt his son and his his body in the mountains and I also believe Jessica doesn't dare say where he is in fear of Deorr and in fear of going to prison!!!! That's what I believe! Get your shit together before you go talking smack on me!

Angie Phillips said...

Yes bitch I am Angie Peterson Phillips. I am no one else on this page but Angie Peterson Phillips and have nothing to hide!!! I am not scared and don't need to post under anonymous or anything else!!! I will tell you exactly what the fuck I believe happened to Deorr Jr and it has NOTHING to do with the grandma!!!

Angie Phillips said...

This is the first I've seen of this page and comments! You have never Called me out that I've known about!!! Bring it on!!!! Stupid bitch!