Anon @ 7.53 - he says grandpa doesn't have anything to with it, more or less - then blames him for stepping into his camper! So, he seems to think DeOrr was snatched while grandpa was in his camper, by a guy in an expensive black Rubicon, who followed them to the camp, at nightfall, on foot? must have been on foot, and he must have had a job following them by foot, as they heard no vehicles - long walk for him, then, carrying DeOrr all the way back to his expensive black truck -and he must have been putting up a fuss, without his monkey and blanket.
Well, there's something about a black truck which needs explaining, that's for sure - not convinced it's anything to do with a fifty year old creepy stranger with grey curly hair, following and snatching DeOrr, though.
But little DeOrr was supposedly in the store, when, Jessica says, she saw a creepy guy staring obsessively at him. So she also was in the store. so this is now meant to be the trip to the store 'as a family'? - was this not on the Friday? It has to be the six o clock store visit, though, if the man is meant to have followed them to the campsite from there. The six o clock sighting was of DeOrr with baby DeOrr in a truck, filthy and bawling - there was no mention of Jessica. There were two store trips. One by DeOrr with DeOrr 'it was me' - not them, or us. Him in the store, buying candy for little DeOrr, who was in the truck, at six. The next day, Friday, was the 'we as a family' trip, probably without baby DeOrr, who was missing by then. the second trip was for feminine products, candy/sweets for grandpa and French fries, ostensibly, for little DeOrr - the 'alibi' trip to the store, to get a receipt? So, I think Jessica being in the store with little DeOrr, before they arrived at the campsite Thursday evening is not true - only DeOrr and little DeOrr were at the store at six. There's a problem, he drives a black truck, and it was him. Also, Jessica did not think to mention the creepy guy during the first interview - not till the PI was on the scene? So unlikely.
If DK saw an expensive looking black Rubicon in Leadore, he would not have dismissed the 6.00 store sighting as being himself, just earlier in the day. The black rubicon is a red herring.
It's interesting that now the story (how many is this) is that parents left the campsite to "scout a fishing hole"...They've been saying "exploring" for over 2 months. Why the change, making it more detailed. They weren't just wandering around exploring, they were purposefully "scouting" a fishing hole. Why not just say that in the beginning instead of listening to 2 months worth of speculation about what the parents were really doing when they went "exploring" I call BS on the new story.
Also, so the nimble-footed PI snatched up a child while grandpa was in camper. First, it wasn't reported grandpa was in the camper when DJ went missing, and second...SO WHAT? Did PI then run? To where? How did he get the child out? I'm beginning to believe that this PI has some type of mental deterioration. His actions, words, etc. are just flat out bizarre.
Anon "Anonymous ?Anonymous? said... TC? Trina Clegg? I also find this interesting. Drama is the center of this family's dynamics, long before little Deorr's disappearance. September 18, 2015 at 7:55 AM
It's not 'from' her it's for her and marked for a reason with her initials. Drama you say? Stay tuned....
September 18, 2015 at 9:22 AM
Ok Anon...we get it. You want to hide as you use no name, you flag posts with TC so that Tina can just peruse message boards quickly and zero in on posts that mention her so she can create drama and muddy the waters. You even state, "Drama you say? Stay tuned... That statement makes it appear you like drama and being an agitator. What's up with that? To my knowledge, this blog is for people interested in SA, not a FB that somebody slaps up to sling mud. I hope this does not deteriorate into that kind of forum. I also think it's unnecessary for an anonymous person to "tattle" and "flag" posts for the family. JMO
Yes, as is the creepy guy driving it, and the other mother whose four blond sons were allegedly being stared at -- look there, not here, sort of thing. They must be pretty desperate to think people will believe the creepy guy tale. It will be interesting to see the artist's impression, though. I hope it's better than Egg Man, at least if they are paying for it.
When the Vilt interview is transcribed, statement analysts will have a field day! Vilt is unscrupulously (imo) throwing as many red herrings into this case as he possibly can. He is not trying to find baby DeOrr, he is trying to create a (reasonable doubt) defence for the parents. It's disgusting and it is dishonest. Vilt drops some real clangers in the latest interview. Check this one out. It pertains to the lookalike baby found in CA in motel 6.
VILT: The boy's father called down there and he was quite upset and he was transferred to HOMICIDE and then disconnected.
It seems to me that things would go more smoothly for DK and Jessica if GGP would publicly state that he did, in fact, see the baby at around 2.00pm on 10th of July. He is unwilling or unable to do so.
I had the chance to interview Frank Vilt, the private investigator for Deorr Kunz's family. I asked him a little bit about his background and the latest on the case.
I specialize in recovering abducted or missing children, and I knew Deorr's - the boy's - father because he worked in a body shop in monteria and I'd had my cars worked on down there and I'd seen the little boy [something] in the shop a few times, and it was a month since he was missing and nothing was happening so I kinda got myself involved because I wanted to help out and find out what was going on.
Okay. So, there are a couple of different really interesting things that are happening in this case right now. Little boy down in California was found wandering around and a woman shows up and "claims" him, now there's a picture of this little boy - they put it side to side with a picture of Deorr - I can not tell the difference between those two little boys. The resemblance is remarkable, so weigh in on that angle right now.
Well, what I have learned - this was in a Motel 6. A little boy with no shirt on and with a diaper was wandering in the parking lot of this Motel 6, so a motel employee brought him inside and put a - kind of a shirt on him and took his picture holding a telephone and notified the police of this. And when the Orange County Sheriff showed up, I believe they released him to a person without obtaining the proper identification as to who this person was. I've been in contact with a lieutenant down there - Lieutenant Roach - and his e-mail to me was they were gonna see if they followed the proper procedure, and I have not heard back. I have put them in touch with Detective Sergeant Noah of Bonneville Sheriff's Office, and they were corresponding back and forth, and I believe that the person that the little boy was given to has left the area. I don't even know if they have been able to find them. But I do know that they supposedly opened some kind of CPS case about this and I haven't heard the results, and I'd like to hear the result - but I should hopefully hear the results of that some time today. It's very strange.
It is very strange. And when you look at the two pictures - since you're been involved in these kind of abduction cases - was your response similar to mine? They're close enough that this absolutely merits more attention.
Oh, absolutely. That's why I made the initial call down there, and yesterday when I called down there no one knew anything about anything, then of course the boy's father called down there and he was quite upset and he was transferred to homicide and then disconnected, and then finally I just went through the proper procedures again and then finally got an e-mail back from the Watch Commander, so then I e-mailed him and he advised me that he was in contact with the Bonneville County Sheriff's office up here to hopefully get some resolution to find out what actually did happen. Right now nobody's saying anything about that, but it's very suspicious to me.
Okay, let's shift over to this other story. Witnesses apparently have come forward and said that they saw - I guess a suspicious looking man in both the Leadore area and also in Swan Valley, of all places, so give us the run down on that particular part of this story.
Sure. I established a national hotline - a tip line - because the sheriff and high county didn't put out an Amber Alert. So I felt that just to get the public involved, with their eyes and ears to help us solve this case. So a lady called me from Swan Valley - she had been in Swan Valley but she lives in the Idaho Falls area - and she said that she has four little blonde boys and they were hiking in the Palisades campground area and the husband kinda lagged behind with one of their boys - their children, their little boys, boys are 3, 4, 6 and 9 - and she got back to the van earlier than her husband and she saw this man - he was in his mid fifties with gray-white hair - staring obsessively at her boys and it made her feel very uncomfortable. And so when her husband finally got back she said "Maybe I know this guy" so she kind of waved at him and said "Honey, don't - don't - that guy looks kind of kooky - stay away from him, let's get out of here". and then the man followed them to tan ice cream store. He was driving this very expensive looking black Rubicon - Jeep Rubicon - and so she called the tipline and she said "This is what happened to me, and I was concerned about this black Jeepy Ribicorn - this guy was just staring at my kids. " So I called Deorr, the boys father, and said have you seen any vehicles outside the store in Leadore before you went back to the campground prior to when your son was missing and he said "Yeah - right - I saw a very brand new - almost brand new - very expensive-looking black Rubicon jeep."
Snake River is the key here. As Peter said in a comment to someone, I think ima.grandma yesterday, the earliest statements are best.
DeOrr said Snake River TWICE, repeating the error the first time he tries to correct it.
This Jeep Rubicon story is complete bullish!t. If DeOrr Sr had seen it the day DeOrr disappeared, he would have remembered it, and if Jessica had noticed a "creepy man" staring at DeOrr merely HOURS before he VANISHED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH, why wasn't it immediately reported and announced to the public?
If LE cancelled the search because it's "hunting season", they're not talking about animals...they're hunting PEOPLE and I see two in their sights right now.
I agree--I think the creepy staring guy is a red herring.
I am still not convinced baby DeOrr was ever at the campsite.
I have a question that may be, well, kind of stupid, but with the picture of the little boy who wandered into the motel, he definitely does look strikingly like baby DeOrr, however, the telephone in the picture, do telephones that look like that even exist anymore? That telephone with the cord and everything and just the shape of it--it looks like it is from the 1980's. I actually kind of wonder if that picture could have been created by someone? Or if it is even an old picture of some kid that happens to look like baby DeOrr that someone put up on facebook to create drama.
I also get the feeling, and I could be wrong, that the beginning of Dad DeOrr's interview talking about search equipment, searchers, the layout of the place, how "not a trace was found" is nothing more than him taking pride in the fact that he created a kind of "perfect crime"----where the layout would allow someone to see down into the campsite without being seen (or heard: he points out how the "crick" (creek) made lots of noise, so that it is possible that someone was watching them and crept down and took baby DeOrr, that all the best searching equipment was summoned and found NOTHING "not a trace" "not a trail". I have thought it was odd too how I believe it was the mother said that toddlers usually "leave a trail", a word I would normally associate with an animal, not a human. I think this is because baby DeOrr was never there, animals were there, however, living in the woods and so this phrase comes to Mom's mind of "leaving a trail". I do not think baby DeOrr was ever at the campsite. I think that Dad DeOrr chose this area because it was the perfect place to stage a "disappearance" that he could pass off as an "abduction" while also distracting searcher's attention for a lengthy period of time while they turned over every leaf and stone looking for baby DeOrr.
Oddly, something about it reminds me of the Ramsey case, where a huge distraction was created with the ransom kidnapper's note. I just sense something is the same with this case regarding this campsite somehow being a distraction, a diversion, I don't believe baby DeOrr was ever there.
I know Juliet has commented on this before but I think it's worth highlighting again.
DK: The one guy, I can't remember his name, um, I've met so many people, so many good people, but he was - his own safety, he was, he was more or less, he was strapped in, he was on the side of that helicopter, looking, and I - he was looking down. I remember them telling me they asked search and rescue to look over, because THERE WAS AN ORANGE INSECT REPELLANT CAN, THEY THINK by the bank, and they were dead on THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. That's how accurate these guys are.
J: THEY THOUGHT IT WAS, it might have been, A PART OF A SHOE or something.
WTF? Did they think it was an insect repellant can or part of a shoe? How on earth can he/ they have been "dead on" that it was a can of insect repellent when he/they thought it might have been part of a shoe?
Following the pronouns from DK, safety guy goes from "he was, he was, he was (repeated 6 time in two lines) he and him" to "they and "them". I don't know what it means.
Applying principles of SA to DK's language is exhausting and frustrating. The same goes for Vilt.
Well, early on, the family themselves asked people to look out for a black truck, make unknown, and for a Chevy (blue as I recall) which had been seen in the area. DeOrr seems only to have remembered seeing an expensive black Rubicon at the suggestion of the PI. This is so blatant, and the sudden belated recall so patently untrue, down to the Swan Valley mother and DeOrr supposedly using the same description of the truck as expensive - it's mind boggling.
Anon at 10.55pm - shortly after someone came on here and said they had got their popcorn, so where was the drama? - I had to choose all the images with popcorn. :) Another slow day for those agitating for drama - they might prefer Facebook.
Anon re the orange insect repellant can - yes, confusing. I think they told Jessica they thought it might be part of a shoe, and DeOrr was told it turned out to be an orange insect repellant can. I believe the helicopter search may have encompassed some hours of darkness, because DeOrr goes on about the night vision capabilities and thermal imaging - I had a Google and found that colours are not discernible with night vision goggles, the view would be monochromatic, everything would appear green - but some advanced technology can make night look like day, and as it was the most advanced type of SAR helicopter in the world, hired out of Montana, they may have been able to see night like day, though I don't know what conditions/type of environment might be necessary to that, it seems the area may need already to be well lit, more like an urban area, but I'm not sure of that. I think, as DeOrr said they were 'dead on' when they weren't if they had said shoe and found a can, that he was spooked by how dead on they were in locating even such. tiny items, whatever they turned out to be - it was the accuracy in picking out what was there which was 'dead on' - I think he feared having been picked up by night vision and thermal imaging himself, in a place he was not expected to be. Or he could have been so amazed that in view of all the technology, they had not found DeOrr, if indeed he had been hidden, dead or alive, in the area.
I wonder if all the 'he was' means that 'he was looking down ' AT DeOrr Sr - I think he was.
Funny that the husband with the four blonde boys said to his wife....
"Honey, don't - don't - that guy looks kind of kooky - stay away from him, let's get out of here."
AND FRANK VILT SAYS.....
"Alot of stuff out there, on social media, what I call THE KOOKS." (Around the 1:05 Mark, interview part 3)
KOOKY.....KOOKS....KOOKY....KOOKS
HMMM....me thinks this is a made up story.
The only thing could be is if he's didn't make a direct quote from the husband and just gave a roundabout of their conversation, but if that were me as a PI I would want everyone to know exactly what was said, ya know?
Anon @ 11.47 - what are the chances of a body being recovered if it was put in Snake River - about nil? Yes, I wonder if there is any Swan Valley location along the river which any of them knows, and where they might have hidden him. I wonder how long it would take to make a round trip from timber Creek to Swan Valley in DeOrr's truck. It may not matter how long it took a very expensive black Rubicon truck, making a one way journey. What date was the Swan Valley creepy guy incident? Is it possible attempt at 'alibi building' around someone close to them who owns or owned a black rubicon at the time DeOrr disappeared?
I wouldn't describe PI Frank Vilt in those terms Anon at 11.19 - he kinda got himself involved, and things are not always as they appear. It 'appeared, DeOrr just vanished, after all - we all know, as did Trina, that really babies do not just vanish. So she says it appeared that way, while Isaac claims 'he just disappeared' - as babies don't.
Angelica - , motels and hotels still have those old style push button phones in the rooms, they probably gave it to him to play with or to see if he would talk?
Angelica - I think Jessica saying they leave a trail was her recalling what SAR had told her. They would have explained to them that a toddler would drop and lose along the way items he was holding, and his shoes would come off, maybe he would shed some of his clothes. They would expect to find that type of trail, which would tell them he had been where the items were found. If it was a plan, this fact about how it pans out with lost toddlers, what should have been found, was not known to the parents.
Your post made me remember DeOrr's 'this child loses stuff' - was he thinking negatively about DeOrr at this point, not because DeOrr had lost anything, but, unreasonably, because he hadn't, and this lack of a trail had shown up the fact he did not get lost at the campsite. DeOrr is annoyed about that oversight/lack of knowledge that there should have been a trail, so in that moment, and in thinking about that, he feels negatively about his son and calls him 'child' though it's momentary, because he knows how unreasonable it is to feel that way?
Interview Part II - And he [Deorr Jr's father] also said Remember - when we were inside the store before we went back to the campground there was a man inside, he was mid fifties, white gray hair, he was staring obsessively at the little boy Deorr, Deorr Junior, and it made the mother and father feel very uncomfortable [because?] this guy was just looking at them. So I kind of put two and two together, and I understand today that Deorr and his wife - err his girl, she's not his wife - Jessica - Jessica met at [something] county with a sketch artist, he's supposed to do a sketch of the person they saw inside the store. And so hopefully we can put that together with the lady and her husband who saw the man up in the Palisides area, so that's how that came to be.
So Frank, I know when this story broke and we had this missing little boy - and I talked to so many people about this, I can't count the conversations that I had with people, and they all felt like something just is not - just isn't right about this, and as someone who's investigated these sort of cases - what does your gut tell you? I mean, you're working on behalf of the family and I understand that, but what is your gut telling you what happened to Deorr Kunz?
I believe that he actually was abducted because of the searches that took place, the specialised helicopter from the Montana National Guard with the special infared equipment, they put some spots out to the ground troops and the ground troops checked those out and they [something] it.
I put together a simulation - a reenactment - last week, or earlier this week, we put that together and I showed how a child could be abducted from the campground. And just because the searches - the cadaver dogs, the search dogs, the number of people who were up there searching - they would have overtaken the area that the little boy could have gotten to. He had cowboy boots that were too big for him, he liked those cowboy boots so he was clumsily - sometimes walking he would step out of them. It just didn't make sense that all the searches that took place couldn't find any parts of human remains, clothing - nothing. They checked dens, wolf dens, bear dens, eagles' nests, they checked all that - nothing came up. And nobody knew who was in the campground when they came in on the Thursday night, because it was dark up there - and so very easily - there's an access road above the campground where someone could have been watching, there could have been this guy in the store in Leadore that was obsessed with this little boy and followed them and could have snatched him up. So there are a lot of things that are possibilities. And I know the Sheriff didn't put an Amber Alert out originally because it didn't fit the criteria originally because everybody was thinking the boy got lost in the campground, and when you don't find the boy in all the searches going on - that's why I kind of wanted to step in, kind of volunteered my time, because I wanted to get the word out to the general public.
So what's next, I mean what's the next big step here, and what are law enforcement angencies doing?
Well, right now law enforcement is doing the sketch of the man they first saw in Leodore, so that's gonna take place, and hopefully we can show this then to the lady and her husband and the four kids that were up in the Palisides area in Swan Lake - uh, Swan Valley - and so that will take place, and I've given some information to law enforcement, they followed up on it, and I'm impressed that law enforcement is doing their part. I don't think law enforcement has really made a big mistake in this, I think law enforcement want to recover this child, but [something] they're thinking he has to be lost, he wandered away from camp, but then that's not - the kind of inspiration - you have to think outside the box what else could have happened. So that's why I'm approaching this. I've gotten tips - I established the tip line - I've probably gotten over 100 tip calls, people giving me information, and I've checked that information and I know the Lemhi County Sheriff called the State Police Fusion Centre and that's fine, they should do that, but I had all these follow ups personally myself, I made calls to other locations, other law enforcement agencies, and I've gotten so many calls from people with black Rubicons that fit the description, and I've tried to put those together and tried to to come up with a scenario that might warrant further investigation based on the sightings.
The creepy guy was looking at them in the store before they 'went back' to the campground. There could have been this obsessed guy who followed them as they returned to the campground, on Thursday night, when it was dark. (They would have heard his vehicle - he could not have followed that distance on foot).
I don't believe them. The guy in the store has been invented to place Jessica and the baby in the store in order to create the idea that this was not the six o clock sighting, but the store visit 'as a family', and to introduce the 'predator', to try to strengthen their claim of abduction. They already told us he was not abducted. He does not leave his parents. They did not see or hear anyone, they did not hear any vehicles. An abductor would have needed to park a long distance, and walk in the dark, without a torch, in order to reach the campsite. He would have had to know where they were going, how to negotiate the area in the dark, snatch DeOrr from under the eyes of four adults, then carry him a long distance back to his vehicle, in the dark - without little DeOrr's cowboy boots falling off. Even if someone did manage all the rest of it, and DeOrr didn't scream or cry, his boots would have fallen off, and 'the abductor' would either not notice, or not bother to pick them up - why would he, they didn't fit, anyway? They probably would have fallen off in the campsite at the moment he was snatched. it's ridiculous. An abductor would have left a trial, candy wrappers maybe, but most of all DeOrr's boots. No wonder the boots are so sensitive. :)
Frank Vilt has ' tried to to come up with a scenario that might warrant further investigation based on the sightings.'. Yep, he sure has. And it's so impressive that LE is doing their part, and he doesn't think that LE has REALLY made a big mistake in this - he only THINKS they want to recover this child, (well, obviously they do) but they have to think outside the box (of him being lost) - wel, we know they are thinking outside that box, as the Sheriff said so, in his interview, but he's not willing to expand on what they might be thinking - the FBI report will be critical. So, the PI, whatever his motives in kind of involving himself, seems not to be doing the best job in representing LE. He says he has had probably a hundred tip calls, but beneath the audio it says he has received fifty calls. He might be working with LE, in a roundabout way - well, the more outlandish scenarios the family will go along with, the more we have to wonder why? Why, after a month, do they mention a guy in the store? No mention of this scary, obsessive character with an expensive black Rubicon, despite the sighting of a guy in a black truck with a little boy 'matching our description of our son' - well, that's unexpected. All this, and the eccentric bumbling-seeming manner if the PI may be a drawing out ploy, not quite entrapment? Who knows, except that it is interesting.
I know everyone thinks the abduction scenario isn't possible but I just wanted to point out that Joseph Duncan used night vision goggles before he murdered Dylan and Shasta Groenes family and abducted Dylan and Shasta. And they were picked out at random when he drove by and noticed a party at the parents house during the day.
Vilt, a former Kunz family friend who now works as a private detective in Montpelier, was critical of the Lemhi County Sheriff's office for failing to follow up on potential leads. One of them was a tip from a woman who said she saw a boy matching Kunz's description near Caldwell, Idaho. The boy was with a man in an older model tan Buick with Oklahoma license plates and had taken a ride with the woman to get gas.
“I'm not saying that the Lemhi County Sherrif's Office had tunnel vision, but they should have expanded their search and put out an amber alert," said Vilt.
Vilt said that had the Sheriff's Office acted sooner, he believes they could have gotten surveillance footage from the gas station near Caldwell.
“I've called the department several times and they've never returned my call," said Vilt.
For what it's worth, I read every post (unless it's an obvious troll). It's obvious that many here have quite a bit of time, thought, and emotion invested into little DeOrr.
Juliet's post (@ 10:51): That was a well-thought out post detailing what a nighttime abductor would have to do. I'd just like to add another point to your list, if I may. That nighttime predator/abductor would have left tracks himself; not just footprints, but also broken limbs/shrubs as he passed through to the campground.
Anonymous with the Night-Vision Goggles post: Also a good point. Many hunters employ those to in areas where spotlighting is illegal, to scout deer in advance of hunting season. You're correct that it would enable him to spot DeOrr and family, but it would not assist/allow him to navigate a pitch dark forest. A lifelong community resident *may* be able to navigate that area blindfolded (I've got a few elderly hunters who could on our family's land that backs National Forest), but It's highly unlikely.
I have not read most of these posts, have only scanned a few. Those few that I scanned, I see good points in all of them, some statements which had already led me to my own conclusions earlier on. My conclusion is this:
The little DeOrr family arrived at the campsite area store during the early evening hours of Thursday, the 9th, but did not actually set up camp until around 9:30 pm that evening as was noted by Jessica's mother having received a text message from Jessica when they arrived that night. The clerk who witnessed DeOrr and his truck and baby at the store is credible, IMO; and is likely the only real credible witness that baby DeOrr was ever there with them at all.
It is my belief that Baby DeOrr was killed by daddy DeOrr, Sr on the Thursday evening after they left the general store where DeOrr Sr had tried to console him by buying him candy, which did not work. The baby was tired, hungry, filthy dirty, rubbing and chafing himself in a nasty stinky diaper which needed changing, and which he might have been sitting in for hours. He was inconsolable and pitching a hysterical temper fit, which would be understandable while rubbing a burning rash on his little bottom and feeling dirty and itchy all over.
Further down the road having failed to stop little DeOrrs' temper fit; daddy DeOrr blew his cork, slammed the baby around and beat the hell outta the child, killing him. I would by no means call this an accidental death or one of neglect. It was pure out and out physical abuse and that is no accidental death whether he had ever abused the child previously or not. It is impossible to speculate about Jessica at that point; however, she was likely right there since no evidence has been stated about her being left at the campsite while daddy DeOrr went to the store alone with the baby; and, if she was there, why didn't daddy leave the screaming brawling baby with her to be cleaned up and fed? The question answers itself.
DeOrr & Jessica had three hours from the time they were last seen with their hysterical neglected baby at the store, until they arrived to set up camp at the campsite. This is plenty of time to travel a long distance to get rid of their dead baby or to select a spot nearby, dig a hole and put him in it. They goofed though when they did not bury his blankie, cup & toy with him, but instead tried to make it sound like the kidnapper left these things behind. Duh...
I would totally discount everything else both daddy DeOrr & Jessica have said about events that morning as they are both liars, both trying to make the GGF look like the bad guy who failed to watch their child when he knew nothing about it. They have thoroughly confused the old guy with their lies. Also, Isiah, who has given conflicting statements may very well be in on the cover up of where the childs' body was disposed of; since, why else would he give conflicting statements if he did not have guilty knowledge?
It is my opinion that the child will be found where DeOrr, Sr disposed of him, AFTER plenty of time has elapsed for his violent abusive injuries to have rotted off his little bones and these creeps will forever deny they killed their child; they will stick with their kidnapping lie, and will get away it just like all the others we are familiar with. If I'm wrong, I will certainly apologize. ABB
Bethany Very few people would believe girls could be taken from their own bedrooms until Polly Klass, Elizabeth Smart, and the like. There are evil evil people everywhere and capable of anything unfortunately. The remoteness I think in this scenario is what is stumping people. I looked up the directions to the campground. From Leadore, go about 4 miles west on Lee Creek Road to Forest Road 105 (left fork). Go 7.5 miles, then turn onto FR 172 (right fork), go 1 mile to the lower campground, 1.5 mile to the upper. Likely anyone who was there was there on purpose only.
This is a solid family (say three items, carry a blankie, and get that tattooed daddy on the air)
This is a solid lead (an unknown tipster that remains anon because some pervert might come after her since he already knows what she looks like, what she drives, and what her family members look like).
The person in California is now required to show ID in order to retrieve her own child. (solid policing?)
Anon - I don't know how you are getting Jessica being present at the store at six - the sighting was of a gentleman buying candy for a filthy bawling boy who was in a black truck. ' A gentleman', 'he drives a black truck', 'it was me' - no mention of Jessica. There is no mention of Jessica in the store or in the truck. If DeOrr killed the baby, and Jessica was witness to it, why would or should she cover for him, rather than call 911? If she feared for her own safety in that remote spot, she could have waited until she had opportunity to call while DeOrr was not near her - or she could text her mother to call 911 if she didn't want to speak out loud to 911 for fear of being heard by DeOrr. Your theory is straightforward and likely, in its favour - but as I don't find Jessica at the store, or in the truck at six, I also can't find her witnessing DeOrr losing it and killing the baby, then helping to dispose of his body.
If DeOrr killed the baby, the cadaver dogs would likely have alerted to the truck and this would be solved by now, unless they buried him on the spot, more or less. As a precaution, there would also likely have been disposal of the clothing worn by whoever handled the body.
On July 9th at 10:16pm Jessica texts Trina:Turning my phone off only got 37% battery left. On July 10th at 9:42 am Jessica texts Trina: But I only have 20% battery life so I'm gonna turn my phone off again. Call grandpa's phone if you need to. At 12:38 pm Jessica texts Trina: I got a charger and some tampons in Leadore so we're good now lol.
Was anyone else's cell phone turned off during these times? Why did Jessica need a charger? Most cell phones use a universal plug. Did Deorr, Isaac and Grandpa have different kinds of phones so their chargers wouldn't work on Jessica's phone, or is Jessica's phone the oddball? What type of charger did she get? Auto? There is no electricity at the campsite, so where did she charge her phone? She used her own phone to call 911, why would she risk that if her phone was possibly dying?
Bethany at 12;12 p.m.- I'm sorry, I just realized that I incorrectly attributed your Night Vision Goggles input as Anonymous! Again, it was a valid contribution. I shouldn't try to post on the way out the door. LOL
Foolsfeedomfolly -thanks, yes, I wondered about that, if an abductor would have left a trail, footprints, etc,in addition to things dropped - I couldn't take a guess, as I don't know what it's like underfoot there, looks varied, dirt, scrub, tall undergrowth - I suppose LE would get trackers in, who can spot anything. An abductor could have waited till morning, I suppose, but a long night, and much more likely to be seen. Though there was no abductor - I'd be amazed if it turned out there had been.
Oakley, thanks for looking out the Buick sighting, though I had found it by then. It sounds like something that happened, rather than a false lead - I should think unrelated. What abductor would be so stealthy as to steal a child from a remote campsite yet also be so disorganised as to need to take his victim hitching a lift to get gas?
"As it turns out, the boy found at the motel was returned to his mother hours later, police say, but news hasn’t deterred DeOrr’s grandfather."
"They say they found the boy's mother but I don't think they did. If you compare pictures, it's DeOrr – it's really him."
Kunz says he's not the only one who agrees with this theory. "My whole family also thinks he's DeOrr. It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson."
The sentence: "It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson." indicates an extreme level of desperation, especially since DNA can prove who the boy is.
He's using this kid for missing text in his book and hoping others will supply him with theories to promote his cause-missing children-of which he well never do a single, solitary thing thereafter.
If anything, more will go missing.
Federal agents and intelligence aren't good bedfellas.
This case has made my head spin, and after awhile I took a step back, looked at the language, and I just don't see concrete proof of murder. There are so many things that could have happened.
I did a lot of research, starting through websleuths just to see what was going on. They talked about so many missing children's cases where nothing has been found. Nothing. It is always the same story.
Then I was witness to Deorr's family being attacked on social media, and I know everyone will have opinions but some of it was just awful.
I have my own thoughts, I just need more information. I am hoping the FBI report is public so we know more. This case baffles me.
Initially my first thought was that the parents were guilty. But now I can't be sure. And not being sure, and having children of my own, one who is the same age as deorr jr, with blonde hair......I just read some of my comments and tried to empathise. I can't imagine how I would feel in this situation and the whole world came down on me. My son is fast. If I look away for a second he is halfway up the stairs giggling like a crazy speed demon. Haha.
I deleted them because I don't know what happened. I don't want to speculate and cause more hurt to anyone - I need more information. I just feel like there is so much more info I need to base my opinion.
BY HARRIET SOKMENSUER @hgsokmensuer 09/17/2015 AT 12:35 PM EDT It's been two months since two-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. disappeared on a camping trip with his family in Idaho on July 10.
However, after a Facebook post last weekend caught their attention, the family now believes a boy in California could be their missing toddler.
DeOrr Kunz, the missing child's grandfather, tells PEOPLE that he thinks police may have already found his grandson.
On Sept. 13, a Facebook user named "Maria Red Rum" posted a photo of a blonde-haired boy who was found alone at a Motel 6 in Stanton, California. The photo of the boy was quickly picked up by other users and compared to photos of little DeOrr.
As it turns out, the boy found at the motel was returned to his mother hours later, police say, but news hasn’t deterred DeOrr’s grandfather.
"They say they found the boy's mother but I don't think they did. If you compare pictures, it's DeOrr – it's really him."
Kunz says he's not the only one who agrees with this theory. "My whole family also thinks he's DeOrr. It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson."
Motel 6 employees were unable to comment on the incident; however, Lt. Jeff Hallock told PEOPLE that authorities are confident the little boy, who was found by security "wandering the hotel," was returned to his rightful mother.
"When they found the child they initially checked for missing persons reports," Hallock tells PEOPLE. "Deputies then discovered the mother was staying in one of the rooms."
According to the information report, which was filed for documentation, the mother told authorities she fell asleep. After searching her room, authorities felt comfortable leaving the boy with the woman, who remains unnamed.
DeOrr's grandfather said that he heard that a man in a van who fled the scene had dropped off the boy at the motel. But, Hallock says this wasn't the case.
"There's absolutely no connection to the [Kunz] case," Hallock says as he confirms that there is no mention of a man in any of the deputies' reports.
This news is the last thing the Kunz family wants to hear. After months of trying to find leads, DeOrr's grandfather says they are still "beginning at square one."
"We have nothing concrete," Kunz continues. "He just disappeared."
The toddler was with his parents and grandfather when he went missing at Timber Creek Campground near Leadore, Idaho. The boy's parents thought he was with his grandfather, while his grandfather assumed little DeOrr was with his parents.
After an hour of being unable to find him, DeOrr's family called 911. The Lemhi County Sheriff's Department received the 911 call at about 2:30pm. A spokesman for the department told PEOPLE in July that "Every avenue is being investigated."
But the family is now taking matters in to their own hands. They have recently hired a private investigator, Frank Vilt, who is currently offering a $10,000 reward for information that can help find the young boy.
Vilt, a retired U.S. Marshal, told FOX Q13 that he has been conducting his own investigation into the toddler's disappearance and supports the DeOrr's suspicion of abduction.
"Everything lends to the theory that there could have been abduction," Vilt told FOX.
Vilt ensured that the parents are "absolutely" cooperating with local law enforcement and that he has been passing along his findings to local police.
As part of his investigation, Vilt has started a hotline number for the public to call with any tips: 1-888-852-6505.
While there have been no solid findings, Kunz remains hopeful. "Right now we're in the dark," Kunz, 70, tells PEOPLE, "but Frank knows what he's doing."
Bethany, thanks for the explanation. Yes, you can get to feel disgusted by yourself for even thinking, much less writing some things, I know this. Just was suspecting a bit of trollery, and back pedalling, that's all. :)
Long Post: Part 1 of 2 I found it amusing (*ahem* "interesting")that when Jessica is explaining the little DeOrr sighting, she uses the term gentleman...knowing full well that it was Daddy DeOrr. She is careful to cast him in a complimentary light, yet does nothing to correct any perception of little DeOrr (really filthy, just bawling). How many mothers would let a stranger get by with describing their child that way on any given day? Now, how about their "missing" toddler? Her beef is not with how the store employee portrayed her child, but that the store employee reported the sighting with enough detail to identify Daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr.
DeOrr is plain contemptuous of the woman in the initial interview, as he openly scoffs. He doesn't outright say she's lying or even confused about the time (because he knows she's not)...he aggressively seeks to confuse with "they claim it was at six o'clock that afternoon evening". He's all over the place and outright lying in discounting the day and time of the sighting. Keep in mind that this is BEFORE they were forced to admit they actually arrived the night before (Trina Clegg outed them on Facebook). At that point, they'd allowed for the public to believe that they'd just arrived and set up camp Friday morning (sin of omission-withholding information) and were playing it as DeOrr had taken little DeOrr to the store then. Nowhere in the entire 15:05 minute interview, did Jessica and DeOrr admit the reported store visit was on Thursday evening (7:06-7:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358)...yet, they knew full well it was. More importantly, they intentionally perpetrated the idea that the lady/the store was confused, knowing full well that it was DeOrr w/ Little DeOrr and it was just as the lady said. was indeed asaid they had arrived Thursday evening. They were forced to backpeddle when Trina Clegg slipped up. Deceptive much???
Anon at 6.06- Trina posted her demand for a DNA test when the Motel 6 boy went viral on Facebook. After this, the family seemed to have accepted it was not little DeOrr in the photo, but according to grandpa Kimz, they have now had second thoughts. He was not amongst those who originally commented, or if he did, not on SM.
Tanisha (DeOrr's sister) facebook
Tanisha O'Neal Tompkins 16 September at 15:14 · Although the boy that was found in California resembled my nephew baby DeOrr, it has been confirmed that it is not him. As much as we all wanted it to be him and be done with this absolute unreal nightmare we r living, it just isn't... I hope that one day baby DeOrr will be brought home to us... I hope the little boy found in California is safe and being taken care of and his parents realize what our family is going through without baby DeOrr and not take their innocent child for granted again. Thank u to everyone who helped yesterday and all the kind words! We couldn't have done it without u all.
16 September 19.12
I would like to clear up how our family knows the little boy found at a motel 6 in California is not my nephew baby DeOrr. DeOrr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell were called last night by our local detective working on the to look at a better picture of the boy found. They were able to confirm that in fact it is not baby DeOrr. As much as we truly hoped it was, it's just not him. �� as for the boy found we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone... We want to personally thank everyone for sharing our posts and keeping us aware of what's going on! Please continue to share baby DeOrrs face he is still missing ��
Daddy DeOrr said "Here's the problem. It was me." Something had to have happened after that store visit because DeOrr aggressively attacks the lady's/store's credibility and him being sighted with Little DeOrr in that condition is a problem for him with "It was me.". Jessica was not there (in his account or their quoting the lady's). He immediately begins to play it off as a family visit, but the store employee made no mention of a woman, much less a mom with them inside the store or out in the truck. Obviously, the store employee was disturbed by the father-son interaction because she identified the boy as being in the store and then in the truck (per Jessica's and DeOrr's). DeOrr is seriously sensitive about that sighting. Why? It's not illegal for a dad to take his son to the store to buy candy.
IMO, DeOrr "disciplined" an out of sorts Little DeOrr at the campground and hurt him, hence the candy...trying to assuage Daddy's guilty conscience and quiet DeOrr so he wouldn't get in trouble with Jessica. Or perhaps on the way back to the campground or at the campground, DeOrr lost his temper with what he perceived as disobedience/a temper tantrum and "disciplined" Little DeOrr severely("I knew I was in trouble."). Not to be judgemental here, just stating facts. Both DeOrr and Jessica have tempers, as evidenced by their profanity-laced attacks on numerous SM outlets per those who question or disbelieve them. Jessica has custodial issues with her own children. DeOrr, a trucker by trade, is likely gone from home a lot and has less experience handling a toddler. This being his first child, he likely knows little about childhood development/psychology/raising a child. He also has a driving need to be respected ("As a father..." and the 55 "I"'s in a 15 minute interview about his missing son). Couple that with his need to either be in control or portray himself as such (the way he runs the interview, speaks over Jessica, and then asks the news crew "What questions do you guys have?")... and you're just steps away from child abuse.
It think Little Deorr likely succumbed to injuries from the disciplining or had a seizure and died (likely in the truck, since there were no hits at the campground). His remains could have been disposed of Thursday night or on the Friday morning store run. We're all assuming, by the way, that DeOrr and Jessica were both at the store Friday (he could have dropped her off, buried DeOrr somewhere close by, and come back to join her). They could have buried DeOrr somewhere near the store. ("As his father I believe and I think after being up there, and a lot of people agree with me a lot, that he is no longer up the mountain anymore.") I'd love to know how many people agree with him and what there names are.
Sorry to have interrupted your posts, Foolsfeedonfolly - it's a great post. It all sounds plausible - my problem with it is that I don't want to believe that anyone killed little DeOrr, unless by accident - so I'll continue to resist the theory and hope it was something else. DeOrr is so upset towards the end of the interview - I hope it's not because he killed his baby. I would not count that an accident, no matter it might have been unintended. Short-fuses, both, yes.
I'm banking on 'you couldn't not see him' meaning that someone didn't see him, and that an accident resulted from that.
You and I are on the same train of thought, almost entirely. There's only one thing I question: Where was Jessica when daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr went into the store? They had not yet set up camp so he couldn't have left her back at the campground. They didn't arrive at the campground until after 9:00 pm that evening, while the visit to the store was earlier in the evening. Surely he didn't leave her standing beside the road as he went into the store. So that leaves only one place where Jessica could have been: sitting inside the cab of the truck whether the clerk saw her out there or not. ABB
Juliet- I totally understand your position- I'm none too crazy about my theory either. :/ I hate to think of anyone harming a child, much less the person (people) entrusted to protect that child. IMO, a child is a gift, entrusted to the parent(s) to protect,nurture, and raise. While I psychologically understand how "accidental" child abuse can occur, there is no excuse for it. Personally, I think penalties should be significantly stiffer for parents intentionally harming/killing their children. I consider parenting a sacred trust. Scoffers feel free. ;)
On some level, I think the majority of us sense that sadly, the parents have not been completely honest and forthcoming with information...hence the theories and scenarios. I don't think that the motivation of most is to "nail DeOrr/Jessica" (as least I hope not). It's a missing toddler, as well as the need to deceive that's the issue. It's that DeOrr and Jessica have not concisely, accurately, and in correct order told the public, exactly what happened from the time they arrived in Leadore Thursday until they called 911 on Friday. We're not talking about recalling additional details a few days later. We're talking outright deception regarding days, times, people present, and attempting to discredit a witness. That's The Unexpected.
What if Jessica didn't go camping at all? What if DeOrr took the baby for a couple of days for some mini-me time, but then couldn't handle it, - called Jessica to come out to timber creek, then when she arrived said he couldn't find the baby? Or how about Jessica travelled with grandpa, to keep an eye on him, because really Isaac was doing the driving and the suburban was more comfortable than the truck? Somehow DeOrr was landed with the baby for the journey and couldn't handle how fractious he was after the long drive, especially if he had soiled his diaper and been grizzling for ages before they reached the store? Just suggestions, because Imdon't think anyone has considered those so far - and as they are not the greatest truth tellers, we can't know what they have said about how they all arrived is true.
Anonymous said... On July 9th at 10:16pm Jessica texts Trina:Turning my phone off only got 37% battery left. On July 10th at 9:42 am Jessica texts Trina: But I only have 20% battery life so I'm gonna turn my phone off again. Call grandpa's phone if you need to. At 12:38 pm Jessica texts Trina: I got a charger and some tampons in Leadore so we're good now lol. Was anyone else's cell phone turned off during these times? Why did Jessica need a charger? Most cell phones use a universal plug. Did Deorr, Isaac and Grandpa have different kinds of phones so their chargers wouldn't work on Jessica's phone, or is Jessica's phone the oddball? What type of charger did she get? Auto? There is no electricity at the campsite, so where did she charge her phone? She used her own phone to call 911, why would she risk that if her phone was possibly dying? September 19, 2015 at 5:04 PM
It all makes sense now? IMO adds more questions. How did you get her cell phone message? Integrating, got any more?
Anonymous at 7:41 (ABB)-Good thinking! Since Jessica herself did not assert that she was at the store or waiting in the truck, nor did she or DeOrr attribute the Lady at the store with seeing Jessica at all, I do not believe she was there.
How do we know they didn't arrive at the campground until 9:00p.m.? Because Trina/Mr. Kunz, Frank Vilt, none of whom was there, said so? Because DeOrr and Jessica said so (the same two people who purposefully misled the public about the day and time, attempting to discredit the only outside witness)?
The store in Leadore closes at 6:00 p.m., according to their website, so I'm pretty sure the lady store employee knew what day and time it was. So, my question is where were they for 3 hours? Snake River is about a 2hr drive round trip, assuming you're driving the posted speed limit. Considering DeOrr's "hauling" comment, I'm not sure he'd necessarily honor a speed limit. The Thursday evening store sighting is a problem in more than one way: Little DeOrr 's physical and emotional condition; DeOrr's presence and truck; and it doesn't take a little over 3 hours to drive from the store in Leadore up to the campsite. However, one could conceivably make it to Snake River and back to the campsite in a little over 3 hours.
I *think* Grandpa and Isaac might be the keys to this, except not in the way we think. It would be to their advantage to portray Grandpa as confused, somewhat decrepit, etc. It could be easy to play on grandfatherly/maternal sympathy to sway a family member to support your story, especially if it involves jail time/losing child visitation privileges. Isaac's got issues of his own with his record- he doesn't need any additional trouble. Perhaps the deal was "Just don't involve me." and that's why he was conveniently omitted from their recollections. Maybe that's what prompted Isaac to ask the reporter if he'd spoken to Grandpa.
I'm not accusing anyone here. I'd love for this to be a solvable abduction with a speedy, safe rescue. I'm more inclined to agree with the Sheriff though, I think this will be a marathon rather than a sprint.
Juliet- That's a good point! What if Jessica actually did arrive later with Grandpa & Isaac?
I'd love to know if either Isaac or Grandpa actually saw a live, uninjured Little DeOrr Thursday evening, Friday morning, and Friday evening before 2:30. Wouldn't we all? :)
Yes, Foolsfeedonfolly - you are right. I can't get my head round the fact that some people find it reasonable to 'discipline' babies - it's horrendous, and there is no justification for it, ever. A betrayal of trust, and a sacred trust, as you say. The 'blanket training' brigade make me want to puke. It's all the same, though some find one form of abuse acceptable and a requirement. I can't understand it. Live and let live, but not that.
These parents, I don't know what they are like, beyond that their SM language is abusive, and that's not a good sign. DeOrr wanting a mini-me, that is concerning, too. The deception is clear from the moment DeOrr claimed he didn't know what day it was that day. Like Peter said in one of the most recent blog posts, a little while passes, and it's easy to begin to accept deception, buy into the story, we're so used to lies - heavily paraphrased. I hasten to add. They have misled and withheld information from the beginning, now there are blatant fabrications - so they'll say anything to avoid taking responsibility or blame, and that's probably not new.
1. If Trina was getting multiple texts just fine from Jessica, why would the cell phone signal strength be such an issue? Jessica could have tried 911 and texted Trina to call 911 and relay their location in seconds. She seemed to have no trouble communicating with Trina about other "things" during the trip.
2. Why would Jessica need to buy a new charger at a country store (and likely pay a higher price- no slam to country stores intended), when DeOrr had his phone(he "hauled" 1/2 mile down the road to use his)? If Grandpa too had a working cell phone, why the need to buy a charger, just 2 hours from home? I'd be surprised if Isaac didn't have a cell phone with him as well, given his age and SM use. So, with 3 available phones (maybe 4), she had to have a charger Friday morning?
Grandpa Kunz is throwing another spoke in the wheel, so things might soon become yet more interesting. He'd know if it was REALLY baby DeOrr in the motel photo, because he's Granddaddy Daycare, methinks - I'd like to be a fly on the wall listening to the conversation between him and daughter Tanisha just now, as it looks a bit like loggerheads should be expected. I am sure Jessica and DeOrr would have identified him positively in a moment, if really it was him. They ummed and ahhed a bit, Mariah thought he looked just like DeOrr, Trina wanted a DNA test - that's not unreasonable, as she might not have recognised him so well, not having had much contact, but I'd think she'd take DeOrr and Jessica's word for it, that it was not him. All very curious, or not- what's grandpa Kunz up to, contradicting the rest of the family, and the PI, like that?
---
Jessica said he was playing with her grandfather. Trina said grandpa saw little DeOrr playing in the dirt. Grandpa, so far as we know, was shocked to discover he was meant to be watching DeOrr. They are all blaming grandpa - who didn't even know he was meant to be looking after him. Had grandpa even seen him? Did they tell him he was asleep, to account for his possibly having not seen him? Immediately, shock. I wonder about that a lot - shock, I think it might be too strong as a reaction to not knowing where the little boy was, as they would expect he couldn't have gone far and would soon find him. I think that's not what DeOrr said (where's little DeOrr) and that the shock was due to something else.
Juliet- I hear you loud and clear. It makes me sick too the things that human beings do to one another! If we're the "most evolved species", then God have mercy on us (seriously).
Your mini-me comment is interesting! I had the same impression and found it a little disconcerting. I know several narcissists and it's a scary that their children are not allowed an identity outside of their parents. Granted, it is cute when a child identifies with and imitates a parent(particularly their same sex parent). It's a whole 'nother story when parents are molding the child to their own image. They should be acknowledging, encouraging, and celebrating the child's unique natural gifts, abilities, and interests. At some point, there's going to be a coup and the King/Queen is going to be gloriously overthrown in a full-scale rebellion.
Oakley A.- I'm sorry! I mistakenly typed a 2 hr round trip when I meant 2 hr one way (i.e. 4 hr round trip). Sometimes, my fingers and my brain aren't always on the same team. LOL!
Timber Creek Campground is approximately 2 hrs one way from Snake River Parkway/Campground Idaho Falls, driving the posted speed limits. It seems plausible that one could drive from Leadore to Snake River, dispose of a body there or along the way somewhere (not necessarily a burial even) and be at the Timber Creek Campground in a little over 3 hours. It's just a thought. No one would be looking there, if an abduction happened 2 hours away.
I guess the real question is: If the store closes at 6 (as the website says) and they didn't arrive at the campground until after 9p.m., where were they for 3 hours? Where was Little DeOrr?
They've placed themselves at the store with DeOrr on Thursday (they clarified this after Trina placed them in Leadore on Thursday evening). They insisted in their initial interview that the time frame of their visit wasn't around 6, that it was earlier in the day. So, that makes it earlier in the day, Thursday? If so, they've got an even bigger problem with a 6 o'clock store sighting on Thursday.
Foolsfeedonfolly - yes. :) and the Lil Man thing, when he's a baby, not even out of diapers. I wonder if DeOrr is the type of guy who wants his baby to learn how to be a man, and to stand up for himself, tries to 'toughen him up' with experiences which are age inappropriate, to try to make him become the required reflection of himself? Those guys are scary in how much they don't understand the child, out of the same fold as parents who think a tiny baby is 'naughty' and crying in order to annoy them. Mini-me - it's scary, and often people who view their children in that way don't know it's abuse, perceive their children as property and treat them inappropriately. It seems like too much judgement, but that type of parent is prone to flying off the handle when the child doesn't conform to expectations. The 'mini-me' comment may just be something he's heard other people say, or seen on SM (it's worrying how many parents proudly post pictures labelled 'mimi-me') and said without giving much thought to the implications, or something which is real to him, again without giving much thought to it. :-/
I'm going to sleep now, it's 2.31am and I have to be up early. :)
Juliet I'm sorry if you suspected me of trollery lol. That was not my intent. If you would like to read my posts on fb, I have commented underneath a few of the EIN posts - so you can see I stand behind what I say and that i am a real person. Not a troll. LMAO. Backpedaling - maybe. I am not ashamed to admit that, if i have changed my opinion. With all of this information it's a lot to take in. That's why I haven't posted for awhile. Sometimes it is good to sit back and listen.
Foolfeedonfolly it's all good!!! I knew what you meant, I take no offense. You have a lot of great ideas.
Bethany-Thanks for the grace with my mistake. I think you've added a lot to the conversation.
That's one of the things I like the most about Peter's site- we seem to have a lot of people who are interested in learning and looking for answers. Unlike a lot of other sites, our posters tend to do research and rationally, logically discuss (as opposed to just wild accusations and flaming anyone who doesn't agree). we actually have a conversation, instead of comments devolving into a free-for-all like a lot of news sites. I like that posters are open to changing their mind should valid new information arise. I also like that people are willing to admit when they're wrong and learn from it. I don't like to be wrong all by myself. LOL!
Well that's very interesting, Jessica's phone was turned off Thurs night and Fri morning, how convenient. I wonder if anyone else's phones were turned off during that fateful trip?
Absolutely FoolsFeedOnFolly!!!! Thank you for saying that, I appreciate it!! And I hate to be wrong all by myself too!! Haha
I love to learn new things, and this site is amazing for that. I don't understand SA as well as a lot of the regular posters, but I love hearing what you and everyone puts together and how everyone works as a team without discrediting anyone else's ideas. It is a good, solid blog with good people.
I am anxiously awaiting news from the FBI, and from Peter too. My head says one thing and my heart says another, and I don't trust either right now! Hahaha
Good question about why did Jessica need to buy a charger.
You'd think she would have charged her phone up before she went on a camping trip. I wonder why the battery was so low. Maybe had a LONG conversation (s) with someone?
Here is another point, if Vilt thinks that the staring man tip is credible, why did he up the reward after the couple called in the tip? Does that mean they only get 10K if their tip brings Deorr back? Doesn't that make it seem like he has no faith in the tip?
Trying to reconcile how the low battery-buying a charger scenario fits with the one bar of cell phone service so "I was hauling 1/2 mile down the road to where I knew I could get a signal" from DeOrr. @:0 (my head swimming)
So, I find it odd that DeOrr anticipates a cell phone signal strength issue problem to the point that he's already in the vehicle and at the location when Jessica calls. We know this because soon after her call begins, we hear dispatch talking to him in the background. Why would he expect her call to fail? Because of the signal strength? If that's the case, then he would have to have scouted that in advance to know where to get a better signal to ensure his wouldn't fail (see the quote above). The only way to know that, since he'd "never been there before", would have been to make or receive a call from that location or to check his phone earlier at that location. Hmmm.
Was he hoping her call would fail for some reason? He sounds sort of grudging when he said she was "lucky". It sounds almost as if he wanted to be the one to call to get his "story" (his word choice) told. He places a heavy emphasis and importance on telling "his story" without being interrupted (his phrasing). It really sounds like story telling, especially if Jessica's phone was indeed powered off Thursday evening through Friday morning/early afternoon. There seem to be a lot of coincidentals and unexplainables in this case.
"I found it amusing (*ahem* "interesting")that when Jessica is explaining the little DeOrr sighting, she uses the term gentleman...knowing full well that it was Daddy DeOrr. She is careful to cast him in a complimentary light, yet does nothing to correct any perception of little DeOrr (really filthy, just bawling). How many mothers would let a stranger get by with describing their child that way on any given day? Now, how about their "missing" toddler? Her beef is not with how the store employee portrayed her child, but that the store employee reported the sighting with enough detail to identify Daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr."
What you wrote is interesting.
Could Jessica's description of little DeOrr be considered "disparaging the victim"? Like in her mind she either thinks or believes others will think that is Little DeOrr's own fault he was filthy and just bawling? Or she is just trying to mimic the emotion of sympathy towards the filthy, bawling toddler but it's coming out wrong? Odd too how she calls the man a "gentleman".
Really good point, he could have tested where he would get the signal strength before. I think the crime was premeditated (and I believe not many do and I realize that), so I have no problem believing he could have done that. In fact it makes sense.
Good point how he seems like he wants to be the one to tell the story to 911...he also cuts the Mom off and completely dominates her in interviews so we only hear his version. I also found it very odd how he says he was very "blessed" the Mom was able to get through to 911. He really didn't want her to get through did he?
Very strange thought I just had right now as I'm writing this. Is there any chance that Dad DeOrr actually had Mom DeOrr under some kind of duress/captivity during these events or even the actual crime against DeOrr? Could he have been commanding her to shut off her phone at certain points? Could he have been ordering her to call her Mom (Grandma) to tell her about their need to go buy tampons, so if she ever tries to tell people about what happened he can say "She was completely fine! She had her phone! She called her Mom just to chitchat about buying tampons. She's a liar!" Is it possible he had taken the phone away at certain points or that she was extremely anxious/under duress/ had a feeling something bad was going to happen to her or the kid and so was trying to preserve battery so she was not trapped with DeOrr Sr with no way to call for help. I wonder now if she was being held captive by him during any part of it, it might explain some of the erratic and strange phone behavior from MOm.
I believe it was made up by Vilt & clients to bend the publics minds to abduction. And that could very well be a picture of the father as a child. This was announced the same 72hrs he is stating a truck miles away & accusing grandpa of an axe & coveralls (firewood4camping tools) What if this man in the Rubicon was a concerned citizen staring to see a resemblance of pictures on news of missing Deorr? What if they made it all up? Three leary actions by Vilt, hired to bend our minds and justify his shady clients. And I hope the FBI sees this clearly as well.
Anon, I think there is something off about the baby picture also. I had commented the phone looks like it is from the 1980's. Also it looks kind of grainy or something. What you suggested about maybe it is a picture of the father as a baby is very possible! What are the odds that this "coincidence" would occur?
As I had written last night, and will write again, after reading everyone's comments and further discussion today, something in me tells me that Dad DeOrr premeditated it, and that he takes pride in having created a "perfect, unsolvable crime" much like the Ramsey's.
Had he released his own picture of himself as a child it would not suprise me. We don't know who that kid was in the picture. The alleged child from the picture was snatched away by his drugged out mother (allegedly).
Angelica - there has to be a real Motel baby who matches the picture as he was seen by the Californian police and returned to his mother by them - Lemhi Coumty Sheriff was in contact with them about the baby, too, so it has to be real.
I don't know what to think about Jessica's texts to Trina, especially the '991' text, if the person posting them is genuine. It could be to let her know they have called 911 and so for her to set off to join them now, in which case Trina already knew what was going on, and Jessica had been phoning her between the 'alibi' cheerful texts, discussing the situation and what to do next. Or it could mean, 'help - phone 991 for me, because I think DeOrr has done something to the baby - we can't find him, it's been ages, but he won't let me call 911, and I'm scared of disappearing, too'.
Who knows what he might have been doing or saying if he was responsible for the baby disappearing, and scared of the consequences? If Jessica didn't know what had happened to the baby, and he wouldn't let her call, she could say 'too late, I texted my mom, so they are going to come anyway' - he might have jumped into his truck and hauled in panic, intending to run away from the situation, then had second thoughts by the time he was half way down the road and decided he better stop and call 911 too, because there would be np I chance explaining running away - so made his call, then carried on the pretence of not knowing what had happened to the baby. I don't know if that could fit without watching the interview again - but Jessica's seeming anger/suspicion towards him is interesting.
The phone being low on power - maybe she had been having long conversations with someone between the texts - it seems likely, as she would have set off with a fully charged phone, surely. Or maybe it was an older phone so needed charging all the time.
Foolsfeedonfolly - somewhere, I think when he was talking about anonymous threatening letters, Peter said, more or less, that the author would sometimes refer to the victim (him/herself) in unexpectedly polite terms. I am wondering if the same would apply if someone knew they were talking about themselves, or in this case DeOrr - if that might be a giveaway that she knew it was him. Or maybe just raised to refer to stranger's that way. But was the creepy guy in the store a man, or a gentleman? I can't remember.
Bethany - trolls are real' people, too. :) I have no doubt you're a real person. Back pedalling is fine - I anticipate doing a fair bit more of that myself' but if you delete so many comments it's not going to be easy to remember or learn from your mistakes later. :)
Also, it might make some people less willing to respond to your posts - it leaves theirs rather hanging in the air when others can no longer see in which context their remarks were made. ;-)
Juliet- If my memory serves me correctly, it was the unusually polite (and at points) complimentary tones of the ransom note in the JonBenet Ramsey case. An oxymoron that a person(s) who highly regard you would kidnap and murder your child in your own home...on Christmas Eve/Day no less and a morning you're going to be up early because you're getting ready to fly out on a trip.
Disparaging he victim crossed my mind, as well, when Jessica did not defend the description of Little DeOrr or really Daddy DeOrr as buying an obviously upset, unkempt child candy. That smacks of a grown-up buying off a child, IMO and is the image many would take away from that exchange. Most parents would be worried about that situation possibly being miconstrued, but they are not.
Personally, I felt DeOrr was disparaging Little DeOrr with "this child loses stuff". Most parents are somewhat annoyed at some point about having to constantly pick up after toddlers- the string of toys that go along with a short attention span, the shed clothing/shoes, etc. :) We've all likely witnessed the toddler with one shoe or the lone sock in the grocery cart seat or seen the small tornado left in the wake of a playing toddler. I didn't care for his description of Little DeOrr tripping over his blanket to carry his things either...not while his son is "abducted". The family might privately smile to themselves in amusement at his dogged determination, but it seemed inappropriate given the context. JMO
Angelica- I hadn't really given much thought to Jessica being coerced into complying. Things like that have happened before though, unfortunately. Judging from Jessica's demeanor in the initial interview, her seemingly uncooperative and nearly hostile behavior in the second interview, and the extended media silence vs. the time spent and willingness to patrol and confront non-believers on multiple SM sites. I also get the underlying sense that whatever happened, it was DeOrr's idea and she went along with it for whatever reason, and the cracks we're seeing are from the strain. She definitely reads to me like a woman in conflict with herself and her situation...and it's not an abducted child, IMO.
She was almost palpably angry in the second "family" interview. The question is why? The interviewer was respectful and it was another softball interview. I wonder yet again why they passed on Nancy Grace (not that I'm a big fan), but it would mean instant national exposure for a missing Little DeOrr. For two people who so ardently declared they'd never stop looking and "Daddy will find you.", what are they afraid of? Nancy Grace. She does know how to interview. If they're worried about being misconstrued, they can take their lawyer, her parents,his parents, etc.
Something about knowing someone is weighing your every word would be nerve-wracking I'd think, but I'd think that your love for child, the urgency of the situation, and your need to get help would override your nervousness...at least I think that's how I would see it. Having never been in the situation though, I could be wrong. I'd likely be nervous about the whole TV thing, but I'd feel compelled to do it to find my child. Of course, it is an investigation, so maybe LE advised them not to?
FoolsFeedOnFolly, and others; I do not believe that Jessica is scared of her old man, her baby daddy DeOrr. She's had every occasion and every opportunity to get away from him or to express herself, and to divulge his secret if he had one that she knows about and is now privy too.
Nah... she knew what went down there with that poor child from the beginning. IMO, she is part and parcel to the demise and disposal of baby DeOrr. She could have made a move at anytime she wanted too. She's hiding something herself, whether we want to face it or not.
Just take a look at this baby's photo. He is obviously neglected by his mother; his skin has painful sun rash poisoning on it from being left out in the blazing sun with no protection. Poor little guy. Where was SHE? He was described as wearing boots that were too large for him? Flip-flopping around on his little feet? This would give even an adult blisters on their feet,not to mention the blisters and sores this would cause on the childs' feet.
I think I could have bought my child a decent pair of shoes that fit his little feet, some diaper wipes and some UV sun lotion for his little sensitive body before I went hightailing it off up in the wilderness for him to suffer more torture due to HER neglect. And I CERTAINLY would have changed him before sending him off to a store filthy dirty and bawling in his painful misery. Poor baby, he was trying in every way he knew to tell them of his pain and misery. We get the full description from the store clerk of this poor child being in filth and grime and hysterical at the store?
Good heavens; it only takes a few minutes and a few dollars to take care of your child and to make sure the child is comfortable and not in desperate need of care and attention. This Jessica mama has no shame for the condition she allowed her child to suffer in. THIS was her lifestyle. She never took care of her child or made him her first priority. I have no pity for this POS whatsoever. Sorry. Not an ounce.
Actually, I am really angry at this no-account dredge of humanity, calling herself a mother, neglecting her child the way she did. I'd like to shake her damned liver lose. ABB
Juliet as always thank you for your input. I know trolls are real people. I surmise there are a lot out there hiding under bridges haha!
If people don't want to respond to me that's ok. I understand. I deleted them because I didn't want to speculate and cause harm.
As far as my mistakes are concerned, I will still learn from them. Peter changes my thinking every time I read his posts. I have a long way to go.
Thank you for everything though, it makes me feel good that you even noticed that I had deleted them, as I didn't really think I contributed much to Peter's blog.
Yet Deorr Sr. claims he is a trucker in a media interview.
Is Vilt merely trying to figure out who watched the interview?
I would suspect most that live in the area watched it. Those that viewed the NG segment may have watched it. Those that brought items to "Bella aka Baby Doe" definitely watched it. Of course some members of the search and rescue may have watched it.
Another interesting Vilt fact. On Friday Sept 11, 2015 when the reward was announced and the "staring man" tip came in, Frank Vilt said they lived in Houston, TX and it would take time to set up a Skype interview with the couple and the sketch artist. But when the tip was announced publicly, they lived in Idaho Falls!
I find Jessica’s pronouns alarming. Below are all of the words spoken by Jessica in the first interview:
Jessica Mitchell: Yes.
JM: Yeah.
JM: It was Friday.
JM: 2:36 is when I called
JM: They thought it wa, it might have been like a part of a shoe- or something
JM: But they said “go check that out”.
JM: Pretty...
JM: ...the support around us is what’s I know, keeping me together because if we didn’t have all of our family, the minute I called my Mom and she was up there in a matter of hours and same with the rest of our family they were just up there
JM: -there around us.
JM: No we both did.
JM: Yeah especially after screaming his name, we have nicknames for him, no sound of him, no crying
JM: Yeah he’s very attached to us.
JM: And… we didn’t hear people around us, we didn’t see anybody, we have-
JM: We just don’t want anything twisted.
JM: We’ve-
JM: One thing that concerned me-
JM: I just, somebody at the store um in Leodore said, it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw um a gentleman and a younger blond boy matching our description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him and he was just bawling in a black truck. That is the only other-
JM: He drives a black truck-
JM: Earlier. It was earlier that day.
JM: Yeah. From-
JM: Yeah he was with my Grandfather
JM: Ten minutes.
JM: Shoes fall off, anything…
JM: Yes.
JM: We will continue to look until he is found. We don’t care how long it takes we, and we think as many people that have shared the story and continue to share his pictures and things like that, if somebody has him, they will eventually bring him back.
JM: Somebody will come forward with some sort of information.
JM: Yes. Keep sharing photos, keep-
JM: This is his blanket, he doesn’t go anywhere without his blanket, his cup or his monkey and all three of them were left at the campground and since he-
JM: Yes.
JM: Yeah.
JM: Yes. Because-
JM: this is the blanket that we brought him home in from the hospital, this is his, this is what comforts him, any and all times. Um...
JM: Yeah.
JM: We’ll never stop looking until we get you home.
JM: Just if somebody has him please don’t hurt him, just bring him home safely to us-
JM: -where he belongs, even if you have to just leave him at a store where somebody else will see him and bring him home safely to us, I don’t-
JM: Yeah, just drop him off somewhere-
JM: -where somebody is at, so that they can see him and bring him home.
Here are the things that Jessica is willing to own with a first person singular pronoun (I, me, my):
I called keeping me together I called my mom One thing that concerned me my grandfather
She owns nothing related to DeOrr. We didn’t hear anything, we didn’t see anything, this is the blanket we brought him home from the hospital in, we have nicknames for him, we will continue to look, we don’t care how long it takes, bring him home to us, matching our description of our son.
The lack of the pronoun "I" from the mother of a missing child is highly significant. There is nothing more personal to a woman than her own child. -Peter Hyatt, Billie Dunn Pt. 4
"We" is used by the guilty in hopes of sharing guilt with others. It is highly unexpected from a mother of a missing child. -Peter Hyatt, Billie Dunn Pt. 4
KM - wow! Jessica didn"to say much, but presented like that - very interesting. Follow the pronouns in action, I can see better how that works now. Thanks.
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Re filthy DeOrr in truck, it is worrying that she does not say 'that was not my son' rather than 'he drives a black truck'. If she was so sure it wasn't and could not have been him, where is the denial? She was asked to address whatever rumours might concern her - she was able to choose her owns, she didn't choose to say it was not little DeOrr. :-/
I think you may have misunderstood. Perhaps my early morning post wasn't clear-My point was that Jessica is strong-willed in her own right and not the type, IMO, to be cowed by a man. For whatever reason, she "allowed" DeOrr to be front and center in the initial interview and interjected where necessary. I don't believe she has any trouble speaking her mind. LOL
IMO, I don't think she particularly wanted to do the initial interview either. Whether that was due to nervousness at the attention, nervousness concerning possible questions they might not have good answers for, or what I don't know. She shoots a number of distrustful looks at the interviewer/camera people in the first interview. As DeOrr answers certain questions, she's weighing the interviewer/cameraman's reactions to see if they're buying DeOrr's account. You can see it on her face multiple times. Innocent people expect to be believed because they know they're telling the trust. They're righteously indignant when they're not believed. IMO she's not; she's distrustful. Forgive the analogy, but it's a little reminiscent of a trapped animal. Again, strictly my own opinion.
I am in no way excusing anyone who had any part in this toddler being missing in any way, shape,or form- accidentally or otherwise, covering up, withholding information, or obstructing justice if that's the case. Confession is indeed, good for the soul.
"because I didn't think, I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went DOWN to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile DOWN the road"
In that "half mile" down the road...what was there? How often was he there? Was he there before? Was he with his son at that location previously? How did he know that at that specific location, he would get service? Why does his mind go to that place, so much so, that it is highly sensitive to him?
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/ 7/15/15 "We are granting their wishes and staying DOWN here so that those divers can be completely focused on finding that little boy if he is in there, and that is why we are DOWN here and we are doing our part by searching farther DOWN," said Tanisha Kunz
I'm curious why this statement was the primary focus to the parents and Tanisha (who as I remember was staying together on the mountain). An explanation of why they would be seen searching "DOWN" is part of the cover-up. Maybe Deorr suddenly remembered something incriminating he down left there???
'We'll find you, son' Parents of missing Idaho boy believe he was ... fox43.com/.../well-find-you-son-parents-of-missing-idaho-boy-believe-he-... Jul 13, 2015 - In an interview with EastIdahoNews.com, Deorr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell say ... “They have torn that creek UPSIDE DOWN and inside out.
Family holds vigil for missing toddler | News - Home - Local News 8 www.localnews8.com/news/Family-holds-vigil-for-missing.../34151958 Jul 13, 2015 - The boys parents, Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. held a vigil ... world could be changed and turned UPSIDE DOWN forever," Kunz Sr. said.
Search for Crystal Rogers. Aired 8-9:00p ET - CNN.com - Transcripts www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html Jul 15, 2015 - Two-year-old Deorr Kunz at the Timber Creek campground with his father, .... in a split second, your whole world is UPSIDE DOWN and vanished
I will read/write more later on when I have more time, but I wanted to respond to your post about the 911 text from Mom to Grandma.
I saw a show once (think it was 48 hours) where a guy kills his wife and after he has done so, he texts his other girlfriend "911" to let her know that he had killed his wife, because the girlfriend knew he had been planning on killing the wife. He then called the cops with a BS story about how his wife accidentally died from having weights crush her in their weightroom. Honestly, I think that is the most likely explanation for the "911" text to Grandma was to let Grandma know that they (or he) had killed baby DeOrr. I have also thought the text (or call) to the Mom about tampons (and yes I do know they actually bought some) was some kind of signal to the Grandma to let her know what they were doing. My initial gut feeling on this case, after I heard about the alleged life insurance policy and heard the deceptive language from Grandma was that it was the 3 of them--Grandma-Mom-Dad who planned baby DeOrr's death. Again, this is merely a gut feeling. But absolutely, I would think the 911 text to Grandma was letting her know they or he had killed baby DeOrr.
Anon K.M. On the flip side The pronoun "we" is also a way to describe herself and another person. They were sitting together. "We" also denotes togetherness; it indicates a relationship between persons. Maybe it is together in cuplubility but nevertheless. The concern is she is showing no individual involvement. Omission of the pronoun "we" is significant, particularly when the individuals are spouses. Which they probably consider themselves as they live together. Like if she had said my boyfriend and I several times. Also our is a possessive pronoun she used with son. I and we are personal pronouns and don't show possession. I would have been more hopeful also to have heard a strong I pronoun from her in the second interview. Or him for that matter he said "you".
I agree that because she was sitting with DeOrr her use of "we" is not as alarming as it otherwise would be.
You are also right about how "we" denotes togetherness. Considering DeOrr Sr.'s obvious sensitivity about the truck and calling 911, as well as his lengthy and over the top praise of law enforcement, I find it telling that Jessica uses the language of closenss. I believe she is not mad at him, as some have suggested based on her body language, and they share any culpability there may be.
The overall impact of her use of "we" (and I agree it is more appropriate since they were together) is that she has said absolutely nothing personal about her son since he went missing.
She has never used his name, ever.
The only time DeOrr Sr. said his name in this interview is when he is quoting himself speaking to grandpa:
"...so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa, uh, “Where is, you know, where’s little Deorr?”
This is the only place in the entire interview DeOrr Sr. uses his name, and it is the only place in the interview (to my belief) that DeOrr says "you know," indicating his awareness of the interviewer.
For comparison, DeOrr Sr. says "Sheriff" 6 times. "Sheriff Dave" is mentioned twice by name.
Jessica spoke much less, but I noticed that DeOrr does not use "we" in the manner and consistency of Jessica:
"Um, I’ll be I I’ll be going up, um with and I’ve just come down to get any resourceI can get to go back right back up today, um what questions did you guys have?"
Jessica is sitting right next to him. Is she not going up? Did she not come down with him? If she is, and she did, why isn't this "we"?
Fifty yards away and ten minutes uh but the time we, I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up from the [creek] and I actually seen there were some things down there, little minnows I thought he would just love, so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa, uh, “Where is, you know, where’s little Deorr?” he, immediately shocked he says "I th- he came up to you.” cause it’s such a small area that’s what a lot of people they don't understand, they just assume how could you let your kid out of your sight?
Why does DeOrr change from "we" to "I" at the beginning of this statement? Where is Jessica? Did DeOrr come back up from the creek by himself? Is she still at the creek? (She might be, I do not know.)
Does anybody know if she came up from the creek with him at the reenactment? If she did, I wonder about this "I" in describing the events of finding him missing. If he was with Jessica, and they came up together, do you think it should be "we"?
Why don't we know where Jessica was, yet? DeOrr Sr. rambled on forever about why he was in his truck and how amazing the search was. Then he asks "um what questions did you guys have?"
How about how, where, when and with whom did your son go missing? He had told us nothing about DeOrr's disappearance at the time he asked that question.
The interviewer started with the question, "Um, alright Deorr so take us back, was it Friday?" which allows DeOrr Sr. to start anywhere on Friday that he would like. He chooses the 911 call instead of his son going missing? He has to be prompted to tell us what happened to his son?
Again, you are right about the fact that Jessica was next to DeOrr when she made this statement.
I do find it alarming that this means she has said nothing personal about her son in the entire time he has been missing. She has never even said his name. She didn't even speak in the second interview.
Jessica is completely absent from DeOrr's description of the search.
Even before the search and rescue, there is no statement that she searched for him (or that either of them did, for that matter).
"Uh we searched for… after about twenty minutes and in a dead panic not knowing where he was in such a small area and not knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble."
DeOrr can't commit himself to saying "we searched" before they called 911. Jessica is absent in his statements about the search and rescue mission, it is only DeOrr who is speaking to investigators, who is making phone calls, who is coming down for resources and going back up.
Where is she in his language about the things that happened? He seems to use "we" mostly in the context of making decisions (to go exploring, to call 911) and having hope.
Why hasn't Jessica, the mother, ever said one personal thing about her missing baby? It alarms me.
4.1 Deception Indicators ... (1) Lack of commitment to a statement or declaration. The speaker uses linguistic devices to avoid making a direct statement of fact. Five of the indicators fit into this class: (i) linguistic hedges (described below) including non-factive verbs and nominals; (ii) qualified assertions, which leave open whether an act was performed, e.g. I needed to get my inhaler; (iii) unexplained lapses of time, e.g. later that day; (iv) overzeal- ous expressions, e.g. I swear to God, and (v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road.
(iv) overzealous expressions, e.g. I swear to God, Trust me with such a small area...'
(v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road. D: that we don't know is...I come to find, I didn't know the area, and I didn't know, I ..there, it's very open but you can't see much ...there's a road that goes up and along the top - we're camped underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and you can go up above the reservoir, and I didn't even know the road was, did that, I didn't know the road was up there, and as I travelled up there myself, I could've found out [?] I could see everything that was going on at the campsite, but you can't see out - you can't see up, you can't see round and if anyone comes to the bottom of your camp ground you can't even see they are...
There is a reason he gave us this information. This paragraph contains a clue.
Do you think the reason he gave us this information is to explain how it is possible for a kidnapper to take DeOrr? He also makes a point to tell us that you couldn't hear someone in the camp because the creek is loud.
I think how a kidnapper could snatch DeOrr from the campsite is sensitive to DeOrr, which I find unsurprising given the unlikely nature of that possibility.
I said this several days ago, but I should tell you (and Oakley, and anyone else reading) that I think they are guilty. This could impede my judgement about analysis, so I encourage input (thanks, Oakley) and urge caution in what I have posted.
I'm going to try to stop posting on this topic, but every time I hear another change in this story (Come to think of it, I did see a Rubicon! We were looking for a fishing hole, not just exploring! Grandpa was in the camper, not standing there! Isaac was fishing, no wait, he was with Grandpa!) it makes me angry, especially after the ludicrous sensitivity and brown-nosing of law enforcement DeOrr showed in the first interview, and I feel compelled to comment.
K.M. Deorr Sr. does use I more than Jessica. Peter breaks a lot of them down in context in his analysis. "we, I, seen him to the point I figured out he was gone" He says he is the one who asked ggp where he was. Jessica may very well have still been down where the minnows they wanted to show him were. He changes to I because he alone discovered he wasn't with ggp. The "reenactment" would clarify that. There was a delay in calling 911 and they initially did not "agree" about making the call Peter finds linguistically. I am sure this is why that portion leaves her out. I have not followed SM statements but I also find it fundamentally odd that she has not said his name in anything published and wonder if she has at all.
K.M. said... Do you think the reason he gave us this information is to explain how it is possible for a kidnapper to take DeOrr? He also makes a point to tell us that you couldn't hear someone in the camp because the creek is loud.
When I heard about the creek being loud, I considered he couldn't hear Deorr Jr. In the water while he was drowning, (rationalizing and giving himself an excuse)
I've also thought there could have been a different campsite in the beginning (maybe the area down a half-mile) where Deorr drowned due to his neglect. I think it happened Thursday night and they could have spent Friday morning, moving their campsite to prevent the finding of evidence. ??? I have no support for this, just an overall hunch. I believe they need to search for the small area protected by walls.
Yes, it becomes intense after so much analysing but it is serving a purpose for me at this time. I have become a serial poster and I apologize to readers.
Thanks, I hope they weren't unbalanced, I just want to admit that I think they are guilty and I'm not as objective as I should be to analyze.
I'd love your opinion and imagrandma's on this part of DeOrr's statement:
"He, uh, was right with us, where it's at, I mean I thought it would be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls and mountains, and there's not much space around there he could go, and our biggest concern was the creek, which was knee deep and a few feet wide, but he's a little guy."
Peter said:
"The need to explain the location is sensitive and this may be the words that are consistent with very responsible parents. It may be that he blames himself for choosing this location, therefore, he feels the need to explain (justify) its choosing: enclosed by walls and mountains (positive) and not much space (negative; what there isn't)."
Trina said that her father (great grandpa to little DeOrr) chose the campsite, that he had been there before, over twenty-five years ago.
Knowing that Trina says grandpa chose the campsite and not DeOrr Sr., (which I believe wasn't known at the time of Peter's analysis), do you think the sensitivity of why he chose the campsite is related to something else?
Perhaps why they drove so far to go camping in a remote area, arriving late at night, instead of camping at Snake River near their home?
Well, just to throw some more speculation into the mix, sadly, as we don't have the letter Kellen Marson claims he was sent.
Part one
Angelica, and anyone else who suspects Trina of involvement, especially of pre-meditated murder - where might the letter to Kellen Marson, supposedly sent to him by a friend of Trina, fit in with such a scenario? I know he's a truth-bender and a fantasist, but I think there was a letter, this because Trina, when questioned on the local news 8 Facebook, by Asia Payne, panicked, went on about having only a couple of friends who couldn't have written it, then deleted all her comments. She didn't say that she did not write it herself, but I don't think that question was asked - even so, she was scared off by the questions which were asked. As I recall, Trina's friend had supposedly asked him for help on Trina's behalf, and said Trina had confided to her that she was worried about grandpa being taken on the camping trip, that she thought he was being taken advantage of, and that they took him along so they could make out that grandpa was meant to be looking after little DeOrr - thereby implying that she suspected that they planned for little DeOrr to disappear. This is like Chinese Whispers - my recall may not be reliable, but I believe that was the outline of it. This is a strange episode - presumably the letter arrived after the parents' interview, and it was that which she wanted him to use his magic tape recorder on. How desperate is that? - why would anyone do that, if they felt he may be able to find something incriminating of themselves? Trina, if she was involved, would not want him uncovering that through his reversals IF she believed in reverse speech. If she believed in it and also suspected Jessica and DeOrr, she might approach him but she also would not want it made public, or for Jessica and DeOrr to know she either wrote the letter, or that a friend of hers had done so. Marson, megalomaniac, could not resist putting the letter on his website, despite how wrecking an effect it would have to have upon Trina/Jessica and DeOrr's relationships,once it became public. He quickly removed it, though it's hard to imagine that damage was not done, and Trina very compromised, regardless of who authored the letter. (Does anyone, anywhere, have that letter saved? Marson presumably, but he's not sharing).
DeOrr and Jessica's reaction to Marson can be looked at as fear that he was on to them, or as anger at what he was doing to them - publicly accusing them of the cold-blooded murder of their son in order to claim on a large insurance policy, then turning up at the store where also they were, offering his help to search, with his twisted useless ankle - p*ss take or what? It would've seemed that way to me. DeOrr, despite Marson's claims of threats and intimidation round the store encounter, reacted quite amiably about it on Marson's page, welcoming any help in searching for DeOrr, even his. Marson reacted by deleting DeOrr's comments - which is his pattern, whenever he is shown up as being untruthful or getting things wrong - delete, delete, and that somehow unsays what he has said, no longer leaving it open to questioning.
So what of Asia Payne's mention of the letter, and it scaring off Trina? Is it the letter (Angelica), which makes you think that Trina might be trying to frame her daughter and son-in-law? That maybe it was she who encouraged Jessica to take out an insurance policy (if there is one) set up the camping trip, saying it was grandpa's idea, and that it was he who wanted to return there after twenty-seven years - but it was really her doing, and to facilitate it, to get Jessica and DeOrr to go to this remote place (which she knew of) - she'd join them herself on the Sunday, as grandpa would like that, and Jessica she knew, would be pleased to see her, and it would help further repair the relationship. As relationships hadn't been great, little contact with her grandson, the reconciliation process must have begun fairly recently. If her concern was financial, grandpa's money - could it have seemed Jessica's family was drawing too heavily on Trina's inheritance, perhaps, whilst she herself is also in dire straits? If both she and Jessica have debts, they need money. Retrospective family-planning on Trina's part, perhaps? The disappearance of the inconvenient, hardly known grandchild might raise some funds and free up more of Jessica's time for looking after grandpa. Jessica needn't find out. The insurance pay-out would solve all their financial problems. It's possible she could have been thinking like that. That line of thought seems to have to come unstuck with the six o clock sighting - which has to put DeOrr central to whatever happened next - so, I don't see how that could be it. Even if Trina was in a bad financial situation and had murderous intent towards little DeOrr - how could the rest of it fit in with the idea of her either trying to frame them, or making DeOrr disappear herself, without them having to know it was she who was behind it? Even if she was laying in wait at the campsite to snatch away DeOrr, there is still that six o'clock sighting, plus it's all too complicated and murder mystery like - poor Trina, to be so speculated upon. How does the letter fit in? We know all Marson's methods are suspect - so has he made his reversals on information/suspicions which were outlined to him in the letter? Was he told about the insurance policy, and also that the grandmother suspected murder? Why would she be saying such a thing against her daughter to him, or to a friend, rather than hoping and praying otherwise, and waiting on the investigation? Now that would be iffy, but we don't have the letter. It's all very strange, but the simplest, most likely explanation is often the right one - framing her family, or staging her own grandchild's abduction seems too way out there to be likely. If not, how does anyone account for the store sighting, which seems like a stressed father not coping, trying to placate his son, who is for some reason filthy, despite he had presumably, only been sitting in the truck, travelling, for hours? Plus there's all his concern about 'such a small area' and not a trace of his son found. I think it's likely other family was up there at some point, doing or helping do something, in the black truck and blue Chevy they were concerned about, probably worried those vehicles had been spotted in the area. So, my wonderings round that - I hadn't been wiling to consider it up till now, as there is only social media talk round there being insurance - but there's only social media talk round other things which are only possibly an aspect of this case too, and which several of us have considered - plus it's interesting trying to figure out how Angelica got to considering that Trina might be behind DeOrr's disappearance - so now I get how she didn't pull it out of nowhere, outlandish as it seems, and in this case, how everything is worth considering. It would be so interesting if that letter was still around anywhere - someone would be able to work out if Trina had written it.
Oh, forgot to mention - if there is insurance, was it Jessica who bought the policy, who was paying, and who might have encouraged her to take insurance out on a baby?
WE decided WE were going to do a little exploring...but (only) I came back up from the creek. It DOES sound as though DK came back from the creek by himself. It is particularly interesting in light of DK and J's response to the question about who first discovered baby DeOrr missing. "WE BOTH did."
Regarding the possible life insurance policy as a motive for murder: It is horrible to say, but I think if money was the motive for premeditated murder, the perps would have killed him and produced a corpse which bore the marks of accidental death. (Falling or drowning)
The fact that there is no body makes me think that it has been hidden because it has injuries which are inconsistent with accidental death.
Dad DeOrr does change to "I" when talking about going up from the creek and discovering little DeOrr missing even though he starts out with "we" went exploring blah blah.
He also does use "I" even when Mom is sitting right next to him saying "I will be going back up to search". That actually did kind of catch my attention when I watched the interview.
I think him using "I' when talking about going up from the creek speaks to the fabrication of the story.
Him talking about "I" will be going back up to search speaks to his domination of the whole plan/situation.
I am on the fence about whether Mom was actually involved in the killing or whether he had her under some kind of duress/captivity.
The 911 texted from her phone to Grandma's I believe was to tell Grandma that baby DeOrr had been killed. BUT we do not know who texted it. It could have been Dad texting from her phone. Especially with her (or Dad if he had the phone) telling the Grandma she was intermittently shutting off her phone. Who knows if Dad could have had her phone all along or was taking it off and on? Something was going on.
(v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road. D: that we don't know is...I come to find, I didn't know the area, and I didn't know, I ..there, it's very open but you can't see much ...there's a road that goes up and along the top - we're camped underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and you can go up above the reservoir, and I didn't even know the road was, did that, I didn't know the road was up there, and as I travelled up there myself, I could've found out [?] I could see everything that was going on at the campsite, but you can't see out - you can't see up, you can't see round and if anyone comes to the bottom of your camp ground you can't even see they are...
There is a reason he gave us this information. This paragraph contains a clue.
I agree! It does. I have wondered about his description of the layout and how ideal it would be for a kidnapper. There is a clue here. I think it may indicate pre-planning of the fake story and also of the crime itself. But I'm not sure.
Regarding the letter you are referring to, unfortunately, I have not heard of it, or seen the reverse guy's page. I tried to go on it when people were talking here about him, but was not able to. What does he do? Does he reverse people's speech? I was aware he was accusing the parents' of wrongdoing from what was being said here, but other than that, I have no other info about him.
I starting suspecting Grandma, because of her deceptive language that I felt pointed towards more than just "covering" for her daughter and DeOrr Sr. I also find the calls and texts to her from Jessica quite suspect. Just chitchatting about tampons right before or after baby DeOrr vanishes or something more? Just randomnly texting 911 to Trina soon after baby DeOrr vanishes (and before they actually call 911), or something more? Trina's story about disposing of the diaper tied up in a tree was a giant RED FLAG for me. Just tidying up the search site or something more nefarious? I vote for a LOT more nefarious.
From what I understand of what you have written, she has given a letter that supposedly was written by a friend which contains incriminating suggestions about Mom and Dad DeOrr possibly framing Grandpa to reverse speech guy?
This doesn't surprise me. She will blame the daughter. She will take whatever "truth" is in the situation like Grandpa was being framed (which he probably was, by Mom, Dad and Grandpa) and use it to divert attention away from her to get people to think that Mom and Dad are the only bad guys, she knows of their ill intent, and she is concerned about it.
I initially thought it was her framing the Mom and Dad but I have come to think it was all 3 working together, but I think Grandma came up with the idea. DeOrr Sr. I think planned a lot of it. Mom I think went along with it, however, I am not convinced she was not under some kind of duress at some points during it.
Unfortunately, the communications with Grandma about such mundane things, alerting her of battery being saved, texting "911" to GRANDMA before they even call 911. Grandma knew what they were going to do to DeOrr. Absolutely. That is what I believe. Disposing of his diaper. Yes I think she will attempt to frame Mom and Dad. Absolutely. There was no reason for her to be tampering with any evidence of DeOrr's (alleged) presence at the campsite. We will never know if she made that up about the diaper, but regardless, it shows she is either lying or had tampered with evidence of DeOrr's alleged presence there, creating chaos and confusion for LE investigators who will never be able now to prove he was there if he even was.
In the 48 hours show I saw, the guy kills his wife and then texts his girlfriend "911" to let her know he has killed the wife and he does it before contacting police. The girlfriend that received the 911 text was actually charged I believe with being an accessory/having knowledge of the crime just based on that text! The 911 text to girlfriend was also instrumental in them figuring out the guy had actually killed the girlfriend instead of her accidentally being crushed by weights in the weight room!
LE are probably onto Grandma. That is probably why Grandma is trying to pin the blame on Mom and Dad completely.
Angelica - thanks for your response. I remember you posting about these things, and your reasons for thinking in that way. I agree Trina's language is deceptive - I have been thinking that's due to her trying to cover for Jessica, and DeOrr - and she seems very concerned that grandpa should not fall under suspicion. I assumed you must be aware of the letter, but now I come to think of it, you were quite late in coming to the case, and had to catch up on it - not much has been written about the letter, and what was written was early on, and I don't remember where, besides on Kellen's website, but he soon removed it. To me, if it exists (and I can't imagine Marson fabricating that despite he is unethical - that would be a step too far, even for him) it creates a lot more questions around Trina, especially her motives in either writing it, or getting a friend to write it. she denied that either of her friends could have done so - she probably doesn't want to lose her friends and knows they didn't write it. So, that's interesting, because who then could've written it? Marson, I would think, looked for 'reversals' based on information he got from the letter. Whether he believes his reverse speech is for real or not, I think he only finds what he is already looking for - it's difficult to make out anything which is supposed to be there if you haven't first read what he claims is being revealed through listening to what they said when the sound is reversed. I see all reference to the baby DeOrr case, and all the reversals he made which included the parents' and deputy's words, and others, have been removed from his website - there's not a trace found. :) - good thing, too, as the man is a slanderer and a mischief who only intends to find villainy in everyone whose speech he reverses. I'm interested to know you didn't know about the letter, as to me, that would seem the strongest indication that Trina is either more involved or knows more than she is saying, and had reason to either suspect or try to place blame on Jessica and DeOrr. I see your reasoning, but for the diaper, I can't help thinking it could have been thrown out without much thought, and she would not have been thinking in terms of evidence and crime scenes, not at that stage, if she really believed he was lost. She knows though, that he only 'appeared' to have vanished - so your take on it is just as possible, and she may have been knowingly trying to discard evidence. The rest though, I think could be accounted for as attempts to cover for her family, rather than incriminate them, it doesn't seem quite strong enough to draw the conclusion of evil scheming murderous grandma - the letter does create more questions round Trina's knowledge and possible involvement, thus my thinking that you knew about it, and that additional knowledge had caused you to feel quite as strongly as you do, but it isn't the angle you are coming from, after all - I will go back and read your posts again, because I find your suspicion fascinating for being so strong, yet haven't quite understood how you arrived there. I wish that letter was around for analysis, I'm sure you would have a field day with it. :-) Marson must have it, and surely would have passed it onto LE, if the disappearance of a little child is more to him than entertainment and a furthering of sales of his magic tape recorders - so, we may get to see it yet, if this case ever goes anywhere. I think he is in rather a lot of trouble, maybe had a 'cease and desist', at least - not entirely unexpected.
Sorry, I didn't answer your question. Yes, he listens to speech in reverse. He then finds hidden 'truths' in their words - it's suggestion, as the words the listener is meant to hear in the reversals, which he posted on his page, are always printed above the sound file. If one listens without looking at what he says can be heard, nothing is discernible. It appeals to the gullible, and so he soon picked up a following when he posted reversals of Jessica and DeOrr's interview. He said, through the reversals, that the parents had murdered the baby in cold blood, and that there was a VUL insurance policy. He claimed a lot of success for solved cases due to reverse speech - the baby DeOrr case, however, appears to be the only case in which he has involved himself, and he doesn't seem to be having great success with it, to date. Basically, he is an entertainer - his main line is comedy hypnotism. Bad taste to branch out into missing children, though no doubt it would help sell a few more of his magic tape recorders, and bring in a new crowd. If there was a letter he should have turned it over to LE rather than posting it on his website - he had no concern for how much that would compromise her. Grandma maybe is canny and knew he would find in the reversals 'evidence' of the 'concerns' she had outlined - or grandma is desperate and gullible, and really thought he could find the truth about what happened to the baby if he listened to the interview. I doubt she expected the letter, whoever wrote it, to appear on his website.
[Background: Deorr is just bawling. He's in his "I'm just like my mom, I never shut up" t-shirt. The apartment is filled with the smell from his diaper]
Jessica: I'm so sick of this situation, we're living with my mom, I can't even buy nail polish, I can't even buy tampons FFS, I'm going to kill myself, Can you make more money or something???
Dad: SHUT UP! AND MAKE THAT KID SHUT UP!
Jessica: He's two, but almost three! And why am I always the one supposed to -
Dad: I AM A TRUCK DRIVER. YOU'RE AT HOME PAINTING NAILS. *YOU* WANTED THIS. YOU SAID, "THIS TIME AROUND, I WILL BE THE BEST MOTHER IN THE WORLD". NOW GO CHANGE HIM!!
[Jessica leaves]
TBC: Speaking of which, doesn't Deorr have a "VUL life"...?
Piston - it was posted by Anon earlier on this thread, so I don't know if it's reliable or true, the same with the rest of the texts, and any information which has come through social media rather than from reliable news sources, or from the family's own words posted on Facebook pages. There is no reason to make stuff up, but that's it to say some people don't or can't find reason to do that. It's the Internet, you know? :) It can get to be like Chinese whispers, and one can sometimes watch that as it happens. It's best to go back to July and read all the earlier blog posts on DeOrr up till the present. There are a fair few, but if you stick to reading Peter's analyses, and watching the videos, you will soon pick it up - going through the comments also would take a lot more time, and they include speculation along with reader analysis - so to catch up with the case proper, and Peter's analyses, it's best read his posts and watch the videos.
Anon at 8.28 - the family was living with DeOrr Sr's father, grandpa Kunz, the one who has given several interviews. They were not living with Jessica's mother, Trina Bates Clegg. The great grandfather of the baby, grandpa Walton, is Trina's father, Jessica's grandfather, and he lives with Trina.
Do they need a grand jury for indictments in Idaho? I was thinking about the reward, strange how it was raised after the staring man tip came in. Maybe the money is actually to keep someone quiet? If so, they are going to need a whole lot more of it. Such a strange case. Is it me or are they getting more and more bizarre?
I think more and more the families in most cases whether involved or not are much more aware of sites such as this and WS etc. Some may even be participants of sites like these before crimes occur.
Anon at 7.31-the beauty of statement analysis is that people will still give themselves away in the free editing process, no matter how clued up they are from websites such as this. SA can't teach people how to lie, or to lie more effectively, even if they think it can. Peter has written about it, and not so long ago.
Tanisha has removed from her Facebook the following (one of her two posts) about the little boy found in a Motel 6 in California. I should think the 'better picture' of the boy was the second of Maria Red Rum's photos, which wasn't on her own Facebook - I think she or her boyfriend posted it to one of the group pages when someone asked if she had any more pictures. I think he said there were only the two photos. Either that or the found second picture was that posted by the man who said he was DeOrr's uncle. The boy in that picture looked possibly a little older than the Motel boy, IMO -but it's difficult to tell. Interesting if Tanisha no longer wants, or feels able, to clear up how the family knows the little boy is not baby DeOrr. This since grandpa Kunz claimed in People.com that it is DeOrr - 'it's really him' and that his whole family agrees with him, which would include Tanisha and DeOrr, though she leaves the other post which also says it is not DeOrr. The removed post:
16 September 19.12
I would like to clear up how our family knows the little boy found at a motel 6 in California is not my nephew baby DeOrr. DeOrr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell were called last night by our local detective working on the to look at a better picture of the boy found. They were able to confirm that in fact it is not baby DeOrr. As much as we truly hoped it was, it's just not him. �� as for the boy found we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone... We want to personally thank everyone for sharing our posts and keeping us aware of what's going on! Please continue to share baby DeOrrs face he is still missing ��
I am elated that Kellen's garbage has been removed from the internet. I don't think I have ever come across a more egomaniacal, narcissistic attention wh*re in my entire life. His backward speech analyses are a joke, he made an utter fool of himself numerous times but especially when he "analyzed" voices coming from a movie on a television, thinking that it was DeOrr Sr., that was hilarious. Yet he continues his ridiculous crusade, not in the interest of finding justice for little DeOrr, but rather to seek attention and feed his enormous ego. ANYONE who takes him even the slightest bit seriously or supports him in any way is a complete moron.
That is odd how Tanisha (baby DeOrr's aunt am I understanding that right?) writes
"we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone..."
1) Is this the only way they checked if the boy could be DeOrr is to ask DeOrr's family "is this DeOrr?" by showing them a picture.
2) What Tanisha wrote seems overly invested in making people drop the subject of whether the picture is DeOrr and to instead focus on the California boy's sad life. Which,sadly, pales in comparison to her nephew's situation where the odds are he is dead.
This makes me think more strongly that there is something suspect about the picture. That maybe they somehow put it out there? Was it actually a picture of Dad when he was younger?
Does anyone know what time Trina arrived at the campsite (crime scene)? I thought it was 4.48 pm but I don't know where I read it. It takes 1 hour and 50 minutes from Idaho falls if there is no traffic. (I'll take a guess and say there WAS traffic being Friday afternoon) and a further 40 minutes from Leadore to Timber Creek campground. So 2 and a half hours total.
The 911 call was at 2.28pm. If Trina was called immediately AFTER the 911 call and did not stop to pack any clothes, make any phone calls, emails, eat or go to the toilet, AND there was no traffic, AND she did not stop for petrol, she would have arrive at the campground no earlier than 5.00pm
I think Jessica called Trina before she called 911.
Maria Red Rum removed the photos of the Motel baby from her Facebook, which had hundreds of comments attached to it, including from DeOrr's family, and from the guy claiming it was his 'Nephew' (strange way to put it, but it sounded as though he did not regard the child as family, questioning if he was really his half-brother's biological child) - it's all gone, though there are many comments and some reposting of the comments which were on her photos appearing on the news story, which, a few days ago she posted on her page. She hasn't posted on her page since, or responded to questions on that story for days. She did mention that she hadn't been able to check if the diaper was still in the office trash can due to being off work due to surgery. She said later that she checked and was told the diaper had gone to the dumpster, so she would check out the dumpster. No update, so perhaps she is in hospital or recuperating.
Too much negativity perhaps - personally, I would not have deleted the photos/comments, as she found the boy, and it's of ongoing interest to so many people.
Angelica - I found a photo of one of the rooms in the Stanton Motel 6 - it shows they do have the old push button type phones common to motels/hotels.
What I was looking for, however, was a photo of the entrance - automatic doors, or push - if a baby apparently wandered in off the street, how did he get in? He would likely not be able to open a heavy door by himself unless it was the type which open at virtually a touch, or operate by sensor - I can't tell, though, not being too up on doors. :-/
A bit curious as to why she deleted, as most of those commenting praised her for helping the little boy - she said she just did what any mother would do in that situation. What I find a bit questionable is why she posted the little boy's pictures on her Facebook - as a mother in that situation, I would have called 911, then cleaned him up while I waited for them. Putting him on Facebook would not even have occurred to me, i would be too busy trying to communicate with him, find out who he might be and where he might have come from. Why think of Facebook? Still, she did - it must have seemed the right thing to do to her- and different generation, maybe it seemed the right thing to do.
I got to thinking of 'someone will come forward wondering where this child has come from' - coincidence, along with it coinciding with the announcement of the reward. My imagination works overtime, but the little boy looks so like DeOrr.
Yes, it appears they have only gone on the photos in concluding it was not DeOrr. This is strange, as at first they were claiming it looked just like him, it Hadn't been confirmed it wasn't him, they didn't know - after a chat with the PI, and some contact with Maria Red Rum by Tanisha, and with the boy's family (presumably the guy on FB claiming it was definitely his nephew, whom he had hardly seen) they said it had been confirmed that it was not DeOrr. I think it's odd that they could not immediately say from the photos, either way if they thought it was him, or not. I'm sure they would know. Now grandpa Kunz is claiming it really is him, and that his whole family agree with him, which has to include his son and daughter, DeOrr and Tanisha. Curiouser and curiouser.
Anon at 11.52 - it sounds as if he is aware that speaking in the past tense is problematic in the case of a missing child - so even though the main search, including the helicopters is over, he is trying to keep everything he says in the present tense. It could be due to his anxiety to communicate that the search is not over, even though he knows it has been scaled back and the direction has changed (from search to also suspected crime scene). I think he is too aware of keeping things on the present tense.
'Bring him home safely, where he belongs' - Jessica. Does Jessica think/know, at that point (first interview) that someone she knows has taken her baby? Who, except someone who knew where they lived, could 'bring him home'?
Well, she's staying at Timber Creek, and they live in Idaho Falls - where they live has not been mentioned during the interview, so how could she be thinking a random abductor could 'bring him home'?
Thanks Juliet, (12.36 am) that's what I thought too. He seems to be aware that speaking in past tense could be an issue, so he self edits, when there is no need.
Look peeps; these two lied from the beginning. For beginners, they did NOT arrive at the campground just minutes before little DeOrr supposedly went 'missing on a Friday morning; it was subsequently revealed that they arrived on Thursday evening, the night before! God knows what these two did in between these times AND up until they FINALLY decided to call 911. Everything they did during those hours, from the time daddy DeOrr left the store with the filthy and hysterically screaming baby, until the next day was planned and carried out by the TWO of them. Period.
You can just about rule out everything else they have said as a LIE or some other concoction of deception they have cooked up to protect themselves. Cell phone charger needed replacing; became a big deal? OH? That's crazy shyt. Common sense dictates that battery operated chargers plugged into the cigarette lighter in the automobile WORKS. Why didn't they have one OR did they, and pitched it, looking for excuses why Jessica couldn't "use" her phone? We will never know the real truth of anything they have said and wouldn't even know that the baby had ever came with them had the clerk in the store not DESCRIBED him and daddy DeOrr, which he could NOT deny.
I could go on and on shooting down everyone of their lame brained guilty comments but why bother? It ALL adds up to these two KILLING and disposing of the baby; one as guilty as the other. And it was no damned accident either. There is never a 'need' to hid an accident, even if/when it is drug or alcohol related; and you DON'T physically BEAT/abuse your child to death "by accident". It is DELIBERATE.
It isn't even necessary to try to find a conspiracy of these four campers in cahoots, plus granny, which comes to no avail; these TWO are the culprits and know exactly where the child was dumped; at the very least baby daddy DeOrr knows and mama Jessica KNOWS as well even if she wasn't present at the time. SHE KNOWS PLENTY. The others may know more too by now but these TWO are the co-conspirators and the murderers.
IMO, these two killed that baby and disposed on him either that Thursday evening or early that Friday morning. NOW THAT'S the way it shakes out; there really isn't any other logical explanation that even makes since. ABB
ABB- I hear your frustration. Babies always deserve actual parents who are mature enough to know that a praent(s)' wants and needs come second.
Bethany-I am with you 100%...waiting on that FBI report here too. Trusting that all the i's are dotted, the t's are crossed, and we're just waiting for the ink to dry.
To Whoever Did Whatever That Little DeOrr is "Missing"- The truth will hunt you down and find you out...Don't kid yourself. Just ask Baby Doe's Mom or the rash of recent perpetrators caught in the last 4 months (some with 30 & 40 yr old crimes). The countdown starts the second you offend. Your life is ticking away. Any time you have left here is just your last chance to come clean before you face your Maker. You should take it, there are no second chances in Hell. There's only one Judge- no jurors to sway, no Defense Attorney, no plea bargains, no Alford Pleas, and no 5th Amendment there.
'we decided we were going to go a little exploring, and he was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire,'
'..I knew I was in trouble..so we decided to call search and rescue..'
They decided - discussed calling search and rescue, but had they also decided/discussed what the story would be - that they were going exploring and little DeOrr was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire?
'We didn't, we haven't left the campsite since one o' clock that afternoon..'
DeOrr has already said he went hauling away a half mile down the road to make his 911 call, and that was a good while after 1pm. (Also, that's another instance of his needlessly correcting 'didn't' from past to present tense 'haven't'. ). As it is now seems clear the six o clock sighting was Thursday, and DeOrr is talking about the Friday, he knows he is not telling the truth. I don't think anything of this story is any more reliable than that - his trying to keep things in the present tense, even when it isn't necessary, also points to the story being rehearsed, probably to him being a fan of true crime/forensics TV, and mostly, to him knowing that little DeOrr is dead.
Even if the report is not released won't there be some indication as to what might be in it? Here, if they suspect someone strongly but don't have enough evidence, it's a case of 'whilst there is not sufficient evidence for a prosecution we will not be looking for any other suspects in relation to this crime' - pretty damning.
I wonder if the FBI report is in already - it's all gone very quiet. The non-family gofundme search page was apparently cancelled at the request of LE - and whether or not the proposed search would go ahead was dependent on the FBI report. All the donations have already been refunded, the total raised now stands at nil, and it was over $2000. So, could be the report is in.
Angelica, if they call them back in, I hope the persons of interest also find Peter there waiting to interview them. That seems unlikely, as the DeOrr blogs are all still here - but half an hour with grandpa would be helpful, no doubt. :) Peter's been quiet these last few days.
The sheriff knows they lied to him, that seems obvious from the interview, but there were obviously other signals, too, that not all was as they tried to make it appear.
Oakley, I agree - it's likely to be a shocker.
Bethany - you're not alone there - I can't do anything for obsessing over this case. It seems the same for many others, too - there just has to be a resolution, and sooner rather than later. We are impatient, but some cases take years, decades to come to a resolution, and it is not three months since little DeOrr 'just disappeared'.
Juliet you are right. Half an hour with grandpa would be wonderful. The lack of information from him and Isaac is concerning. And about the report. I just feel like we aren't going to learn anything for a really long time. That is just what my gut feeling is. So frustrating. If they do, Oakley is right. It will be a shocker I am sure. Ugh.
And if it wasn't in, like you said, why did they cancel the search when they had LE's blessing? They refunded the money, which means now they aren't going to wait for the report to come out. There's no need. Something has to be known to make a call like that, bc whoever was in charge seemed set in making it happen. If they were going to be able to, they wouldn't have given it back. They would have waited, right??
Here's the problem with cases like DeOrr's...you get a lot of wonderful people who truly just want to help, and then you get people who want to be involved for their own personal agenda. Kellen is the perfect example. But he's not the only one in this case. I'm not so sure that the motives of the person who organized the "private search" weren't self-serving. From what I understand, she was very demanding when dealing with people associated with the case, insisting on being given information and wanting to be an "insider". I think she jumped at the opportunity to take over the private search, thinking that this would give her an "in" with LE and people associated with the case. There clearly were issues with how the fund was being handled, I started to suspect that she knew that the search was never going to happen but delayed canceling in order to take advantage of the opportunity that her role as coordinator gave her in order to seek information about the case. For herself. I have no proof, just my observations so make of it what you will.
This case could easily go unsolved. Look at the Ayla Reynold's case where LE came right out and said that an abduction "couldn't pass the straight face test", and yet the case has gone cold, much less it was not in a vast wilderness setting.
I have a gut feeling something about this case is going to unravel soon though. Maybe it is Dad DeOrr's "pride" that I perceive in the searcher's and their "night vision" gear finding "not a trace" of baby DeOrr: pride usually cometh before the fall. Hopefully Dad DeOrr will get a little too cocky and give something of his "plan" away.
Also, Grandma seems to be getting a little unstable if she is trying to point fingers maybe because she has guilty knowledge. Just my opinion. I sure as hell hope something about it unravels, nothing worse than cases going cold, especially when years pass like in Ayla's case, it pretty much comes to seem like only a miracle would solve it.
This case I have a gut feeling something may unravel.
Bethany - I'd guess the organiser knows the Sheriff will not be anticipating any change in his request before mid-October, or she'd hold the funds and possibility of a search open for longer. The organiser is from an LE family and maybe knows more than she is at liberty to share. The report may well be in, as the search going ahead was, apparently, contingent to the report (presumably to what was indicated in it). No idea, I may be adding two and two together and making five.
---
'This search has been cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control and all donations will be refunded. While it's disappointing we are trusting there is a good reason for LE requesting no outside searches at this time. Our prayers continue to be for Deorr Kunz Jr to be found.'
--- 'Money is needed to help cover expenses to launch a private search for Deorr Kunz Jr. Nobody has asked to be paid for their services and nobody is profiting from this fundraiser. Funds will be used to help offset actual costs to SAR volunteers such as housing and food as well as pay for materials needed to manage a large volunteer search effort, etc. If the search does not happen all funds will be refunded to donors. If all funds are not used any remaining funds will be donated to a non-profit SAR or childrens organization like Klaas Kids Foundation.
I am not a family member, family friend or affiliated with the family in any way. Neither am I affiliated with the previous volunteer search attempt that was recently cancelled. I'm from Idaho and have lived here for many years. I'm from a LE family. My interest in this case is purely a desire to search for this child. Snow comes to the mountains around Leadore mid-October so the window of opportunity to do anymore searching is closing fast.
I am in communication with the Lemhi County Sheriff's office and have received Sheriff Bowerman's permission to search.'
ABB - DeOrr mentions the reservoir a fair bit and says 'the reservoir itself' twice. I wonder about that, and a lot of people agreeing with him, a lot, that he is not on the mountain anymore. The reservoir is up the mountain, and the dogs alerted there - thrown off, though, by remains. DeOrr was concerned about something to do with the reservoir. Snake Rivwr, maybe, never to be recovered. Some known spot in the Swan Valley. Vilt said, 'Swan Lake' by accident, but I don't think there is one. Now Grandpa Kunz is going on about there not being anything concrete, but I'm not letting my imagination go there. Do you have any ideas?
'A GoFundme was started for a private search for Idaho toddler Deorr Kunz Jr was. The online crowd fund begun on August 31 only raised a little the first few days. But as of September 2, the "Baby Deorr Private Search Fund" is gaining steam. The GoFundMe page states it is not affiliated with the Kunz family, Mom Jessica Mitchell or dad Deorr Kunz Sr. So far it's raised over $900 of the $2,500 needed. It will pay for a search dog team to begin around early October. This endeavor has police blessing and is waiting on the FBI report.'
---
Anon at 1.33am - would you say you have reason to believe it was the organiser, rather than the Sheriff's Office, who was saying the search going ahead was waiting on the FBI report? If she's not getting inside info, she's not bothering with the search, sort of thing? I was thinking maybe the Sherrif's Office advised her to wait on the report, but maybe not so. I don't know anything about her, and her FB privacy settings are high, so not likely to, either. :)
Thank you Juliet, I thought I'd read that Trina arrived at the campground at 4.48pm but I couldn't find it anywhere. So she deleted it, huh? I'm going to repeat what I said earlier.
It takes 1 hour and 50 minutes from Idaho falls to Leadore if there is no traffic, (I'll take a guess and say there WAS traffic being Friday afternoon) and a further 40 minutes from Leadore to Timber Creek campground. So 2 and a half hours total.
The 911 call was at 2.28pm. If Trina was called immediately AFTER the 911 call and she did not stop to pack any clothes, nor make any phone calls, emails, eat or go to the toilet, AND there was no traffic, AND she did not stop for petrol, she would have arrived at the campground no earlier than 5.00pm.
Jessica must have called Trina BEFORE she called 911, not after. Therefore, DK must have known Jessica could "get a signal out" on her phone. There was no need for him to drive in search of better reception.
Wishing your father, family, and you blessings and miracles during your fathers' recovery. God is good. He is not missing, has not misplaced your father or forgotten about him or any of you, nor is he lost somewhere out there during these painful struggles. He is always at hand; all we have to do is just ask Him.
He will let you know real quick that He is right there if you (we) earnestly seek His help and trouble ourselves to come humbly into His presence; He is always watching, not playing games with those who refuse to believe Him. He is a powerful force, closer than the breath we breathe. Therein lies the only strength we have.
We may not always see the results we were asking for, but we can rest assured and be comforted in knowing that He has a bigger plan that is better than our own although we may not see it at the time. God bless. ABB
Anon at 7.23 am - it sounds as if DeOrr is saying that the baby was up the mountain - the reservoir is up the mountain at a distance considered too far for him to have been able to wander:
'Search-and-rescue crews have been scouring the bottom of Stone Reservoir after dogs picked up a scent and led them to the small lake. But the boy's grandfather believes there's no way he could have gotten there all by himself.
"If he's in the water up there he was taken up there. He cannot walk on level ground without falling down. His little, short legs they can't walk up hill, he can't walk on level ground. He would have fallen and if he would have fallen he would have been crying. He didn't get up there by himself," DeOrr Kunz said.
"They weren't up there very long when this all happened, and what they came down with is that it was 4 minutes that someone wasn't watching him," Kunz said.'
--- That sounds as if he is saying that Jessica and DeOrr went up 'there' to the reservoir, and came down with the story that there was a period of four minutes when someone wasn't watching the baby. Or by 'up there' he could mean the campsite, but I don't know where they then "came down' to with the story of the four minute timeframe. DeOrr went hauling down the road, and he had come down to get more resources (Monday interview day) but i can't find any other mention of them coming down from anywhere. If they were at the reservoir at any point, they don't mention it , or say they had taken the baby up there. All we know is that when he drove up that part of the road himself, DeOrr realised, apparently with some concern, that anything below was viewable from above.
'As his father I believe, and a lot of people agree with me, a lot ...that he is no longer up the mountain anymore'. It sounds like an attempt to persuade, as though he either doesn't want people to keep searching up there, or it's maybe an attempt to justify himself and Jessica moving to a camp lower down, once everyone had been moved off the mountain by the Sheriff after the initial search was complete - maybe an attempt to make people think it was their own choice to move down the mountain, as they knew the 'change of direction' in the search would make people believe it was now a crime scene and that they had become personae non gratae.
From the Fight for justice for Baby Deorr fb page.....
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr September 19 at 6:01pm · http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/07/statement-analysis-deorres-parents.html?m=1
Share Holly Massey-Tomlinson I have a slight rant, I have read through the comments that the statement analysis people have made. They have made some mean comments about Kellen Marson and his reverse speech theory. Reverse speech is his passion and he will post it publicly. I never heard of it until this case with DeOrr.
Statement analysis is Peter’s passion and he has a blog, although he has not come out publicly stating he feels the parents murdered their child. He still will analyze every interview just as Kellen Marson does. He breaks the sentences down looks for deception and what not. I am so sick and tired of people saying negative things about Kellen Marson because of his theory and calling the parents out because he will use an uncommon approach to “dissect” their statements that people think is a fraud. I do believe he said some things in chat that should not have been said nor suggested but he is also human. He really wants to find a missing toddler that he feels the parents murdered.
I feel the reaction that Kellen is giving people is quite common, who in their right mind would sit back and let other people take a “swing” at them without a reaction back. I think the screen shots and these pages that are popping up to “prove” Kellen is a fraud is ridiculous and downright childish. If you did not approve of what he is doing or saying leave his page. I don't ever recall having a “gun” put to my head to believe in what he is saying and to stay on his page. I have never seen him be mean to anyone unless they have been mean to them. Let’s all grow up and be the adults that we are supposed to be. If you don’t like what you see then leave and remember the GOLDEN RULE: DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. In this case: SAY UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM SAY UNTO YOU.
Rant over. I hope and pray DeOrr is found and justice is served where it is needed. Edited · 5More · Sep 19 at 10:01pm
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr Kellen Marson is a very wise and knowledgeable man. He has done so much for the the community searching for Deorr Jr. Spent countless hours studying the behaviors and speech of the parents. Has continued the fight for Deorr Jr even when some people have said the most terrible things to him as if he was on trial. I look up to Kellen as do many people do. 3More · Sep 19 at 10:02pm
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr The link above is a statement analysts about the family. It's not about Kellen. Confused some. See all 9 replies
They are not happy with your comments SA readers!! Still talking about Kellen.... Where the heck is he anyway?
"Jessica must have called Trina BEFORE she called 911, not after. Therefore, DK must have known Jessica could "get a signal out" on her phone. There was no need for him to drive in search of better reception."
Your breakdown of the timing conundrum that you summarized in quote above is really good.
Do we even know Dad DeOrr's actual location at the time? Meaning, could he have been 1 mile away, 2 miles away, 3 miles away when he called 911? Obviously, him being in a separate location is carries far more importance than just wanting to feel "blessed" to achieve an uninterrupted 911 call.
Since Jessica had good reception, is it possible he was actually miles away and only getting "one bar" showing on his phone in that location more distant from Jessica?
I think he disposed of the body.
Grandma similarly, because of the timing problem that you broke down, as you said COULD NOT HAVE BEEN in the location she claims she was (at home) when Jessica called her.
Was she with Dad DeOrr? Should we start looking at her words about "throwing away" DeOrr's diaper more seriously and consider whether it was leakage of some kind? Could she have been with Dad DeOrr and helped throw items of DeOrr's away, in trash cans in random locations where they would never be found? She says she threw his diaper away in the "church's garbage" (meaning the garbage of the church searchers). I think it is worth considering whether she was with Dad DeOrr (driving separate vehicle at points) and whether she disposed of any of his clothes/items in an actual trash can or trash can(s) which were public trash cans or dumpsters.
When I have time later, I am going to rewatch the video with grandma talking just to see if I can pick up anything in her speech that could connect with this concept.
Judas Priest! Some, if not all, of you scare me. A prime example:
Angelica said...
This case could easily go unsolved. Look at the Ayla Reynold's case where LE came right out and said that an abduction "couldn't pass the straight face test", and yet the case has gone cold, much less it was not in a vast wilderness setting.
I have a gut feeling something about this case is going to unravel soon though. Maybe it is Dad DeOrr's "pride" that I perceive in the searcher's and their "night vision" gear finding "not a trace" of baby DeOrr: pride usually cometh before the fall. Hopefully Dad DeOrr will get a little too cocky and give something of his "plan" away.
Also, Grandma seems to be getting a little unstable if she is trying to point fingers maybe because she has guilty knowledge. Just my opinion. I sure as hell hope something about it unravels, nothing worse than cases going cold, especially when years pass like in Ayla's case, it pretty much comes to seem like only a miracle would solve it.
This case I have a gut feeling something may unravel.
Somebody just trying to stir up some shyt, Anon @ 7:59. Likely jealous. Over nothing. Bums me out. Especially when it's done towards me when I've never done anything but try in every way to be honest and ethical; maybe sometimes a little outspoken, but certainly not deserving of being belittled and falsely accused. I tell ya, it's enough to destroy your self-esteem, my most valuable asset.
I've been reading and posting here for years and when these insulting posts show up defaming me it lets me know that whoever is making them has not learned much about statement analysis; otherwise, this person would recognize that I am a woman of integrity, good moral character, honest and of high self esteem. Not perfect no, but certainly not a deceitful person. Yet I get slammed and falsely accused. Go figure. ABB
Did anyone else find it strange that Jessica's dad was present in their latest interview? Why would he be there? He wasn't camping at the Timber Creek Campground-he was still incarcerated. He doesn't seem to be there for moral support, as he's not comforting Jessica in any way, nor encouraging her to speak. Why is he there?
Equally strange is that Grandpa and Isaac are conspicuously absent...the two men who actually were there. Why? If Grandpa is well enough to drive an SUV, pulling a camper and go camping at Timber Creek, it stands to reason that he should be well enough to simply sit at the end of a couch. Since this was a family interview, is Grandpa no longer part of the family? Are they so afraid that someone will actually ask him a question? Or more afraid of what he might say?
Isaac has no health/aging issues to excuse him, so why was he not included. I seriously doubt if it's solely because he "isn't family", considering he was a close enough friends with Grandpa to go camping on this family trip.
So, why was Jessica's dad there? Is his recent incarceration related to Jessica's statement in their initial interview, "Who would do this to us?"? Why was he incarcerated? Does he have enemies? The kind of enemies who might threaten his family?
If this was an abduction, it was very well planned and well executed, judging by the lack of evidence cited repeatedly by Sheriff Bowman. Statistically speaking, an abductor would have had to either be pretty highly skilled or highly lucky- a "four minute"/"10 minute" window of opportunity, with 4 adults well within 10-150 yards, where "you could everything", only one road in and one road out, no engine noise whatsoever, no tracks (human or vehicular-2 or 4 wheel), and no DNA. Both options are highly improbable and Sheriff Bowman knows it as well.
I'm waiting impatiently here on the FBI report and hoping it will be made public.
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr Kellen Marson is a very wise and knowledgeable man. He has done so much for the the community searching for Deorr Jr. Spent countless hours studying the behaviors and speech of the parents. Has continued the fight for Deorr Jr even when some people have said the most terrible things to him as if he was on trial. I look up to Kellen as do many people do. 3More · Sep 19 at 10:02pm
he needs to stop hypnotizing the week minded or are you just looking for that 'wise and knowledgeable" orgasm? laughing profusely@right now
I don't like DeOrr's distancing language in their last interview here http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/deorr-kunz-family-remains-hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/: 1. "You hope..." - Given that they're seated together for this family interview (and he's clutching Jessica's arm and clasping her hand), I would expect to hear "We hope..." and possibly move into "I" statements when just DeOrr is speaking. 2. "You hope for him to come home.."- How can a toddling two-year old "come home"? Does DeOrr think he's going to just open the door one day and walk in? The expected is "We hope that someone will bring our son/DeOrr home or drop him off at a store, Church, Hospital, public place, etc. 3. "You hope to find him..."- The expected is "We hope to find our son/DeOrr/him...". Actually, now that I think about it, the understood should be that a parent hopes to find their missing child, so why is he even saying this? Why does he need to say that? 4. "You also hope to have closure..."-EEK! I don't hope to have closure-I want DeOrr and I'm not even related! It's not even been 3 months, this child has been "kidnapped", and he/they are entertaining "hope for closure"??? >:0 You have got to be kidding! So much for, "Daddy will find you!" (DeOrr) and "We'll keep looking for you until we find you." (Jessica) 5. "You go crazy and you don't know what to do next."- In 15 seconds, DeOrr uses the term "You" (as in other people, not them) 6 times. This is their son, right? They do know this boy, right? 6. "I hope that he's o.k., and in my mind..." - DeOrr hopes he's o.k.? Just o.k.? How about alive? How about unharmed? How could a kidnapped 2yr possibly be o.k. without his Mommy & Daddy and the items that comfort him when he's tired/sick/afraid? How can DeOrr be o.k. with a stranger? Any normal 2yr old would be seriously hysterical at best (stranger anxiety). Clueless Parent Alert!
Now Add Trina's 1. "We feel he was abducted..."- It's interesting that she uses "we", while DeOrr favored "You". How exactly does one "feel" someone abducted? 2. "Why do we continue to search up there?"- They're not continuing to search up there. DeOrr, "and a lot of people, believe he is no longer up there"- remember? It's hard to continue to search up on the mountain when your family's on SM attacking posters, cussing them, and telling them to mind their own business when they question your account. 3. "It was the last place we've seen that baby."- "We" is collective and working together, yet neither she nor Jessica's Dad was there. "That baby" is unexpected as DeOrr has no title of ownership(their baby, their son, DeOrr, her grandbaby, their grandchild,[one of their nicknames for DeOrr], etc.). There is no emotional attachment to little DeOrr by any speaking grown-up, yet DeOrr and Trina appear "emotional" and Jessica appears too overcome by emotion to actually participate. 4. "We would just do anything for someone to walk up and just hand us that little boy"- Where to start here? We "would" is troubling because it's can be both fantastical or conditional. I would love for someone to give me a million dollars. ;) Or I would love to have a dog, but my spouse is allergic to dog hair. Or I would be a better golfer, if I had more time to play. 5. Do they really think someone is going to walk up and just hand them Deorr? What are the odds of THAT happening? Walk up? Her phrasing is really passive there. 6. "...that little boy- Which little boy are you talking about? That little boy(the one distant from you). 7. "We have become silent because we don't want them focused on us."- Silent? She's kidding, right? Not exactly, when your family's on multiple SM sites and news outlet comment pages carrying on like stereotypical "rednecks". Who is the "them" that they don't want focused on the family? LE? The FBI? 8. "We want them focused on this baby."- Did she actually, finally take possession of Deorr? Why the change in language- "that" is now "this"? What's the context? That "they" are focusing on the family. Note the other change in language here: Deorr just suddenly became a "baby" where he was a "boy". 9. [Talking about Jessica needs her son, DeOrr needs his son to raise] "And us,as a family, we just, we need that little boy."- Echoes of Daddy DeOrr here, with "as a family". Judging by DeOrr's need to keep stating that in their initial interview, I think DeOrr and Jessica were having serious issues. Instead of serving to tell/show the public how close/united the family is, Trina actually reinforces how fragile and split the family is as she verbally separates Jessica and DeOrr and attributes them with different needs. Notice DeOrr's alone is raising his son. This seems to allude to prior knowledge of a failing relationship; in which event Jessica would likely be denied custody, factoring in her custodial issues with her other two children and her recent financial judgement.
*Was the camping trip a last ditch effort to save a relationship?* *Was the "kidnapping" designed by one party or a close family member to bring them closer together?*
There is just such a lack of emotion, emotional attachment, urgency,and mental anguish that go along with having a missing child in this case. IMO
Foolsfeedonfolly @ 8,36 it was the PI who said that Isaac lawyered up early on, in which case he wouldn't take part in an interview; it would also help explain his mumbled reluctance to engage on the doorstep attempt to interview him which was made by Nate Eaton. There was also the claim made on SM that Vilt, PI, had told someone that Trina was not happy to hear that he had gone out to find Isaac and Grandpa fishing, and had spoken to grandpa - apparently he should only speak to grandpa through Trina, which has to ring alarm bells, if true. In Vilt's radio interview he said he had spoken to both Grandpa and Isaac, I think the previous afternoon, and on the basis of that seemed satisfied enough to decide they were not involved. This might bear out that the SM claim was true, at least in part (the bit about Isaac supposedly intending to shoot grandpa would seem a bit far fetched, though Vilt had supposedly said he'd received a tip to that effect). Maybe grandpa has lawyered up, too? Vilt did not say so, yet he was willing to say so of Isaac. It seems very likely, by the way he was disregarded as being too physically and mentally frail early on, that someone doesn't want grandpa saying anything. Still, he has been interviewed and taken a polygraph since, and is a person of interest, so it must have been decided at some point that he is not as incapable as first impressions suggested.
I found these comments on Jerry Jay Mitchell (all made here under 'Part Two of DeOrre's Parents Interview' - unfortunately there are no accompanying links, so none of this is verified ):
Anonymous said... wow, this Jerry Jay Mitchell has quite the record - including injury of a child July 23, 2015 at 6:02 PM
Anonymous said... JJM's record is pretty extensive: numerous DUI's and drug charges, battery and indecent exposure (although those charges were dismissed). He is currently incarcerated though so hopefully he isn't involved. July 23, 2015 at 6:17 PM
Sus said... Jerry jay Mitchell. Felony drugs. Petty stuff before that. July 23, 2015 at 6:44 PM
Sus said... I brought up Jessica's father as a possible look into her mindset that day. I know from his Facebook that he wasn't allowed to see his daughters and grandchildren. She worried about losing custody if she was around him. I know from the Facebook of the father of her two older children, he didn't trust her with the children.
So we have a mother who has been accused of being unfit to care for two older siblings. Her two year old has an accident at a campsite. Most call 911 right away. Would this mother...and father? July 23, 2015 at 8:31 PM
Newest on the Fight for justice for baby deorr fb page, First they post Peter's statement analysis on the parents, Then they bash Peter bc basically Peter is jealous of Kellen Marsons work, lol. And then finally they want his help if it will find baby deorr.
Kara Rowbury or whoever has just as many screws loose as Kellen. I thought the page was about baby deorr, not Peter Hyatt???
Just shows you who is running things over there. Wow!!
Kara Rowbury Statement analysis is Peter hyatt. He is very biased of reverse speach and psychics or anything spiritual. So him and his followers degrade kellen and his beliefs as well as psychics and others. They basically have the same view as kellen and people who believe the parents are guilty. Peter just believes his work is better and more relevant. So he tries to stop anyone that believes differently then him. Degrading someones work is immature. Especially people who are trying to find baby deorr and the truth be known. Basically it's hypocrisy at it's finest. Suck on that one Mr hyatt Edited · 1More · 5 hours ago Kara Rowbury
They also call kellens followers minions or trolls. They bash on me constantly that I'm the drama queen yet I have proof of the allegations of the family harrasing me in leadore and at my place of employment. It makes no sense why come at kellens followers unless he's a threat to you and your career!?? Hmmm good question right? His followers don't even know where the snake river is lmfao. There not from here. So to degrade me for what looking for baby deorr? Seems like I've done a hell of a lot more then they have sitting on there asses on the computer. Oh wait and kellen spent his own money to come search. Doesn't matter what you do in there eyes just that they can't and won't believe in anything but Peter. I would call that being minions. I believe in kellen whole heartedly. I actually think what Peter does is pretty awesome as well. But I don't go around talking shit on him well until now. Lmfao. Truth be known bring in the psychics, bring in Kellen Marson , bring in the FBI, bring in the pi, bring in community members who have searched,bring in the family's friends, shit bring in Peter. The more the better. Anyone with anything helps to find a missing baby. 1More ·
Wonder what her stage name is over here. Hahaha
*plays Hypnotize by Notorious BIG in the background* Hahaha
635 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 635 Newer› Newest»Anon @ 7.53 - he says grandpa doesn't have anything to with it, more or less - then blames him for stepping into his camper! So, he seems to think DeOrr was snatched while grandpa was in his camper, by a guy in an expensive black Rubicon, who followed them to the camp, at nightfall, on foot? must have been on foot, and he must have had a job following them by foot, as they heard no vehicles - long walk for him, then, carrying DeOrr all the way back to his expensive black truck -and he must have been putting up a fuss, without his monkey and blanket.
Well, there's something about a black truck which needs explaining, that's for sure - not convinced it's anything to do with a fifty year old creepy stranger with grey curly hair, following and snatching DeOrr, though.
But little DeOrr was supposedly in the store, when, Jessica says, she saw a creepy guy staring obsessively at him. So she also was in the store. so this is now meant to be the trip to the store 'as a family'? - was this not on the Friday? It has to be the six o clock store visit, though, if the man is meant to have followed them to the campsite from there. The six o clock sighting was of DeOrr with baby DeOrr in a truck, filthy and bawling - there was no mention of Jessica. There were two store trips. One by DeOrr with DeOrr 'it was me' - not them, or us. Him in the store, buying candy for little DeOrr, who was in the truck, at six. The next day, Friday, was the 'we as a family' trip, probably without baby DeOrr, who was missing by then. the second trip was for feminine products, candy/sweets for grandpa and French fries, ostensibly, for little DeOrr - the 'alibi' trip to the store, to get a receipt? So, I think Jessica being in the store with little DeOrr, before they arrived at the campsite Thursday evening is not true - only DeOrr and little DeOrr were at the store at six. There's a problem, he drives a black truck, and it was him. Also, Jessica did not think to mention the creepy guy during the first interview - not till the PI was on the scene? So unlikely.
Confusing, much.
Didn't articulate that very well - just they are not telling the truth and it's on account of that problem black truck.
If DK saw an expensive looking black Rubicon in Leadore, he would not have dismissed the 6.00 store sighting as being himself, just earlier in the day. The black rubicon is a red herring.
It's interesting that now the story (how many is this) is that parents left the campsite to "scout a fishing hole"...They've been saying "exploring" for over 2 months. Why the change, making it more detailed. They weren't just wandering around exploring, they were purposefully
"scouting" a fishing hole. Why not just say that in the beginning instead of listening to 2 months worth of speculation about what the parents were really doing when they went "exploring" I call BS on the new story.
Also, so the nimble-footed PI snatched up a child while grandpa was in camper. First, it wasn't reported grandpa was in the camper when DJ went missing, and second...SO WHAT? Did PI then run? To where? How did he get the child out? I'm beginning to believe that this PI has some type of mental deterioration. His actions, words, etc. are just flat out bizarre.
Anon "Anonymous ?Anonymous? said...
TC? Trina Clegg? I also find this interesting. Drama is the center of this family's dynamics, long before little Deorr's disappearance.
September 18, 2015 at 7:55 AM
It's not 'from' her it's for her and marked for a reason with her initials.
Drama you say? Stay tuned....
September 18, 2015 at 9:22 AM
Ok Anon...we get it. You want to hide as you use no name, you flag posts with TC so that Tina can just peruse message boards quickly and zero in on posts that mention her so she can create drama and muddy the waters. You even state, "Drama you say? Stay tuned...
That statement makes it appear you like drama and being an agitator. What's up with that? To my knowledge, this blog is for people interested in SA, not a FB that somebody slaps up to sling mud. I hope this does not deteriorate into that kind of forum. I also think it's unnecessary for an anonymous person to "tattle" and "flag" posts for the family. JMO
Yes, as is the creepy guy driving it, and the other mother whose four blond sons were allegedly being stared at -- look there, not here, sort of thing. They must be pretty desperate to think people will believe the creepy guy tale. It will be interesting to see the artist's impression, though. I hope it's better than Egg Man, at least if they are paying for it.
When the Vilt interview is transcribed, statement analysts will have a field day! Vilt is unscrupulously (imo) throwing as many red herrings into this case as he possibly can. He is not trying to find baby DeOrr, he is trying to create a (reasonable doubt) defence for the parents.
It's disgusting and it is dishonest.
Vilt drops some real clangers in the latest interview. Check this one out. It pertains to the lookalike baby found in CA in motel 6.
VILT: The boy's father called down there and he was quite upset and he was transferred to HOMICIDE and then disconnected.
@Juliet 9:36 PM
Oh no! Egg Man? Look there, not here? Tell me this isn't going to be another McCann case!
If I was to be really cynical about all these new details coming out I would wonder if the month "off" Mr Vilt had was used to build a "scenario".
It seems to me that things would go more smoothly for DK and Jessica if GGP would publicly state that he did, in fact, see the baby at around 2.00pm on 10th of July. He is unwilling or unable to do so.
According to Vilt, IR has an attorney. Maybe GGP has one too.
JFD and Juliet, to prove I am not a robot, I just had to select all images containing eggs.
The one before that was nuts. Just like this case.
I had the chance to interview Frank Vilt, the private investigator for Deorr Kunz's family. I asked him a little bit about his background and the latest on the case.
I specialize in recovering abducted or missing children, and I knew Deorr's - the boy's - father because he worked in a body shop in monteria and I'd had my cars worked on down there and I'd seen the little boy [something] in the shop a few times, and it was a month since he was missing and nothing was happening so I kinda got myself involved because I wanted to help out and find out what was going on.
Okay. So, there are a couple of different really interesting things that are happening in this case right now. Little boy down in California was found wandering around and a woman shows up and "claims" him, now there's a picture of this little boy - they put it side to side with a picture of Deorr - I can not tell the difference between those two little boys. The resemblance is remarkable, so weigh in on that angle right now.
Well, what I have learned - this was in a Motel 6. A little boy with no shirt on and with a diaper was wandering in the parking lot of this Motel 6, so a motel employee brought him inside and put a - kind of a shirt on him and took his picture holding a telephone and notified the police of this. And when the Orange County Sheriff showed up, I believe they released him to a person without obtaining the proper identification as to who this person was. I've been in contact with a lieutenant down there - Lieutenant Roach - and his e-mail to me was they were gonna see if they followed the proper procedure, and I have not heard back. I have put them in touch with Detective Sergeant Noah of Bonneville Sheriff's Office, and they were corresponding back and forth, and I believe that the person that the little boy was given to has left the area. I don't even know if they have been able to find them. But I do know that they supposedly opened some kind of CPS case about this and I haven't heard the results, and I'd like to hear the result - but I should hopefully hear the results of that some time today. It's very strange.
It is very strange. And when you look at the two pictures - since you're been involved in these kind of abduction cases - was your response similar to mine? They're close enough that this absolutely merits more attention.
Oh, absolutely. That's why I made the initial call down there, and yesterday when I called down there no one knew anything about anything, then of course the boy's father called down there and he was quite upset and he was transferred to homicide and then disconnected, and then finally I just went through the proper procedures again and then finally got an e-mail back from the Watch Commander, so then I e-mailed him and he advised me that he was in contact with the Bonneville County Sheriff's office up here to hopefully get some resolution to find out what actually did happen. Right now nobody's saying anything about that, but it's very suspicious to me.
Okay, let's shift over to this other story. Witnesses apparently have come forward and said that they saw - I guess a suspicious looking man in both the Leadore area and also in Swan Valley, of all places, so give us the run down on that particular part of this story.
Sure. I established a national hotline - a tip line - because the sheriff and high county didn't put out an Amber Alert. So I felt that just to get the public involved, with their eyes and ears to help us solve this case. So a lady called me from Swan Valley - she had been in Swan Valley but she lives in the Idaho Falls area - and she said that she has four little blonde boys and they were hiking in the Palisades campground area and the husband kinda lagged behind with one of their boys - their children, their little boys, boys are 3, 4, 6 and 9 - and she got back to the van earlier than her husband and she saw this man - he was in his mid fifties with gray-white hair - staring obsessively at her boys and it made her feel very uncomfortable. And so when her husband finally got back she said "Maybe I know this guy" so she kind of waved at him and said "Honey, don't - don't - that guy looks kind of kooky - stay away from him, let's get out of here". and then the man followed them to tan ice cream store. He was driving this very expensive looking black Rubicon - Jeep Rubicon - and so she called the tipline and she said "This is what happened to me, and I was concerned about this black Jeepy Ribicorn - this guy was just staring at my kids. " So I called Deorr, the boys father, and said have you seen any vehicles outside the store in Leadore before you went back to the campground prior to when your son was missing and he said "Yeah - right - I saw a very brand new - almost brand new - very expensive-looking black Rubicon jeep."
SA says Frank Vilt is a lying POS. Just sayin....
The sighting of the suspicious, staring man will come in mighty handy if baby DeOrr's remains or other evidence is found in or around Snake River.
Maybe in Falls Campground which is located next to the Snake River in Swan Valley?
Snake River is the key here. As Peter said in a comment to someone, I think ima.grandma yesterday, the earliest statements are best.
DeOrr said Snake River TWICE, repeating the error the first time he tries to correct it.
This Jeep Rubicon story is complete bullish!t. If DeOrr Sr had seen it the day DeOrr disappeared, he would have remembered it, and if Jessica had noticed a "creepy man" staring at DeOrr merely HOURS before he VANISHED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH, why wasn't it immediately reported and announced to the public?
If LE cancelled the search because it's "hunting season", they're not talking about animals...they're hunting PEOPLE and I see two in their sights right now.
I agree--I think the creepy staring guy is a red herring.
I am still not convinced baby DeOrr was ever at the campsite.
I have a question that may be, well, kind of stupid, but with the picture of the little boy who wandered into the motel, he definitely does look strikingly like baby DeOrr, however, the telephone in the picture, do telephones that look like that even exist anymore? That telephone with the cord and everything and just the shape of it--it looks like it is from the 1980's. I actually kind of wonder if that picture could have been created by someone? Or if it is even an old picture of some kid that happens to look like baby DeOrr that someone put up on facebook to create drama.
I also get the feeling, and I could be wrong, that the beginning of Dad DeOrr's interview talking about search equipment, searchers, the layout of the place, how "not a trace was found" is nothing more than him taking pride in the fact that he created a kind of "perfect crime"----where the layout would allow someone to see down into the campsite without being seen (or heard: he points out how the "crick" (creek) made lots of noise, so that it is possible that someone was watching them and crept down and took baby DeOrr, that all the best searching equipment was summoned and found NOTHING "not a trace" "not a trail". I have thought it was odd too how I believe it was the mother said that toddlers usually "leave a trail", a word I would normally associate with an animal, not a human. I think this is because baby DeOrr was never there, animals were there, however, living in the woods and so this phrase comes to Mom's mind of "leaving a trail". I do not think baby DeOrr was ever at the campsite. I think that Dad DeOrr chose this area because it was the perfect place to stage a "disappearance" that he could pass off as an "abduction" while also distracting searcher's attention for a lengthy period of time while they turned over every leaf and stone looking for baby DeOrr.
Oddly, something about it reminds me of the Ramsey case, where a huge distraction was created with the ransom kidnapper's note. I just sense something is the same with this case regarding this campsite somehow being a distraction, a diversion, I don't believe baby DeOrr was ever there.
South Park - Liar/Murderer - YouTube
Video for south park liar murderer▶ 0:50
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSeek1ouq7A
I know Juliet has commented on this before but I think it's worth highlighting again.
DK: The one guy, I can't remember his name, um, I've met so many people, so many good people, but he was - his own safety, he was, he was more or less, he was strapped in, he was on the side of that helicopter, looking, and I - he was looking down. I remember them telling me they asked search and rescue to look over, because THERE WAS AN ORANGE INSECT REPELLANT CAN, THEY THINK by the bank, and they were dead on THAT'S WHAT IT WAS. That's how accurate these guys are.
J: THEY THOUGHT IT WAS, it might have been, A PART OF A SHOE or something.
WTF? Did they think it was an insect repellant can or part of a shoe? How on earth can he/ they have been "dead on" that it was a can of insect repellent when he/they thought it might have been part of a shoe?
Following the pronouns from DK, safety guy goes from "he was, he was, he was (repeated 6 time in two lines) he and him"
to "they and "them". I don't know what it means.
Applying principles of SA to DK's language is exhausting and frustrating. The same goes for Vilt.
Well, early on, the family themselves asked people to look out for a black truck, make unknown, and for a Chevy (blue as I recall) which had been seen in the area. DeOrr seems only to have remembered seeing an expensive black Rubicon at the suggestion of the PI. This is so blatant, and the sudden belated recall so patently untrue, down to the Swan Valley mother and DeOrr supposedly using the same description of the truck as expensive - it's mind boggling.
I wonder why Orange County Police Dept. transferred DK to Homicide instead of Missing Persons when he called. Kismet?
Anon at 10.55pm - shortly after someone came on here and said they had got their popcorn, so where was the drama? - I had to choose all the images with popcorn. :) Another slow day for those agitating for drama - they might prefer Facebook.
Anon re the orange insect repellant can - yes, confusing. I think they told Jessica they thought it might be part of a shoe, and DeOrr was told it turned out to be an orange insect repellant can. I believe the helicopter search may have encompassed some hours of darkness, because DeOrr goes on about the night vision capabilities and thermal imaging - I had a Google and found that colours are not discernible with night vision goggles, the view would be monochromatic, everything would appear green - but some advanced technology can make night look like day, and as it was the most advanced type of SAR helicopter in the world, hired out of Montana, they may have been able to see night like day, though I don't know what conditions/type of environment might be necessary to that, it seems the area may need already to be well lit, more like an urban area, but I'm not sure of that. I think, as DeOrr said they were 'dead on' when they weren't if they had said shoe and found a can, that he was spooked by how dead on they were in locating even such. tiny items, whatever they turned out to be - it was the accuracy in picking out what was there which was 'dead on' - I think he feared having been picked up by night vision and thermal imaging himself, in a place he was not expected to be. Or he could have been so amazed that in view of all the technology, they had not found DeOrr, if indeed he had been hidden, dead or alive, in the area.
I wonder if all the 'he was' means that 'he was looking down ' AT DeOrr Sr - I think he was.
Anon at 8.00pm - to spook him?
Funny that the husband with the four blonde boys said to his wife....
"Honey, don't - don't - that guy looks kind of kooky - stay away from him, let's get out of here."
AND FRANK VILT SAYS.....
"Alot of stuff out there, on social media, what I call THE KOOKS."
(Around the 1:05 Mark, interview part 3)
KOOKY.....KOOKS....KOOKY....KOOKS
HMMM....me thinks this is a made up story.
The only thing could be is if he's didn't make a direct quote from the husband and just gave a roundabout of their conversation, but if that were me as a PI I would want everyone to know exactly what was said, ya know?
Anon @ 11.47 - what are the chances of a body being recovered if it was put in Snake River - about nil? Yes, I wonder if there is any Swan Valley location along the river which any of them knows, and where they might have hidden him. I wonder how long it would take to make a round trip from timber Creek to Swan Valley in DeOrr's truck. It may not matter how long it took a very expensive black Rubicon truck, making a one way journey. What date was the Swan Valley creepy guy incident? Is it possible attempt at 'alibi building' around someone close to them who owns or owned a black rubicon at the time DeOrr disappeared?
I wouldn't describe PI Frank Vilt in those terms Anon at 11.19 - he kinda got himself involved, and things are not always as they appear. It 'appeared, DeOrr just vanished, after all - we all know, as did Trina, that really babies do not just vanish. So she says it appeared that way, while Isaac claims 'he just disappeared' - as babies don't.
Anon - thanks for the transcript. :)
Angelica - , motels and hotels still have those old style push button phones in the rooms, they probably gave it to him to play with or to see if he would talk?
Angelica - I think Jessica saying they leave a trail was her recalling what SAR had told her. They would have explained to them that a toddler would drop and lose along the way items he was holding, and his shoes would come off, maybe he would shed some of his clothes. They would expect to find that type of trail, which would tell them he had been where the items were found. If it was a plan, this fact about how it pans out with lost toddlers, what should have been found, was not known to the parents.
Your post made me remember DeOrr's 'this child loses stuff' - was he thinking negatively about DeOrr at this point, not because DeOrr had lost anything, but, unreasonably, because he hadn't, and this lack of a trail had shown up the fact he did not get lost at the campsite. DeOrr is annoyed about that oversight/lack of knowledge that there should have been a trail, so in that moment, and in thinking about that, he feels negatively about his son and calls him 'child' though it's momentary, because he knows how unreasonable it is to feel that way?
Interview Part II -
And he [Deorr Jr's father] also said Remember - when we were inside the store before we went back to the campground there was a man inside, he was mid fifties, white gray hair, he was staring obsessively at the little boy Deorr, Deorr Junior, and it made the mother and father feel very uncomfortable [because?] this guy was just looking at them. So I kind of put two and two together, and I understand today that Deorr and his wife - err his girl, she's not his wife - Jessica - Jessica met at [something] county with a sketch artist, he's supposed to do a sketch of the person they saw inside the store. And so hopefully we can put that together with the lady and her husband who saw the man up in the Palisides area, so that's how that came to be.
So Frank, I know when this story broke and we had this missing little boy - and I talked to so many people about this, I can't count the conversations that I had with people, and they all felt like something just is not - just isn't right about this, and as someone who's investigated these sort of cases - what does your gut tell you? I mean, you're working on behalf of the family and I understand that, but what is your gut telling you what happened to Deorr Kunz?
I believe that he actually was abducted because of the searches that took place, the specialised helicopter from the Montana National Guard with the special infared equipment, they put some spots out to the ground troops and the ground troops checked those out and they [something] it.
I put together a simulation - a reenactment - last week, or earlier this week, we put that together and I showed how a child could be abducted from the campground. And just because the searches - the cadaver dogs, the search dogs, the number of people who were up there searching - they would have overtaken the area that the little boy could have gotten to. He had cowboy boots that were too big for him, he liked those cowboy boots so he was clumsily - sometimes walking he would step out of them. It just didn't make sense that all the searches that took place couldn't find any parts of human remains, clothing - nothing. They checked dens, wolf dens, bear dens, eagles' nests, they checked all that - nothing came up.
And nobody knew who was in the campground when they came in on the Thursday night, because it was dark up there - and so very easily - there's an access road above the campground where someone could have been watching, there could have been this guy in the store in Leadore that was obsessed with this little boy and followed them and could have snatched him up. So there are a lot of things that are possibilities. And I know the Sheriff didn't put an Amber Alert out originally because it didn't fit the criteria originally because everybody was thinking the boy got lost in the campground, and when you don't find the boy in all the searches going on - that's why I kind of wanted to step in, kind of volunteered my time, because I wanted to get the word out to the general public.
Part II - cont.
So what's next, I mean what's the next big step here, and what are law enforcement angencies doing?
Well, right now law enforcement is doing the sketch of the man they first saw in Leodore, so that's gonna take place, and hopefully we can show this then to the lady and her husband and the four kids that were up in the Palisides area in Swan Lake - uh, Swan Valley - and so that will take place, and I've given some information to law enforcement, they followed up on it, and I'm impressed that law enforcement is doing their part. I don't think law enforcement has really made a big mistake in this, I think law enforcement want to recover this child, but [something] they're thinking he has to be lost, he wandered away from camp, but then that's not - the kind of inspiration - you have to think outside the box what else could have happened. So that's why I'm approaching this. I've gotten tips - I established the tip line - I've probably gotten over 100 tip calls, people giving me information, and I've checked that information and I know the Lemhi County Sheriff called the State Police Fusion Centre and that's fine, they should do that, but I had all these follow ups personally myself, I made calls to other locations, other law enforcement agencies, and I've gotten so many calls from people with black Rubicons that fit the description, and I've tried to put those together and tried to to come up with a scenario that might warrant further investigation based on the sightings.
The creepy guy was looking at them in the store before they 'went back' to the campground. There could have been this obsessed guy who followed them as they returned to the campground, on Thursday night, when it was dark. (They would have heard his vehicle - he could not have followed that distance on foot).
I don't believe them. The guy in the store has been invented to place Jessica and the baby in the store in order to create the idea that this was not the six o clock sighting, but the store visit 'as a family', and to introduce the 'predator', to try to strengthen their claim of abduction. They already told us he was not abducted. He does not leave his parents. They did not see or hear anyone, they did not hear any vehicles. An abductor would have needed to park a long distance, and walk in the dark, without a torch, in order to reach the campsite. He would have had to know where they were going, how to negotiate the area in the dark, snatch DeOrr from under the eyes of four adults, then carry him a long distance back to his vehicle, in the dark - without little DeOrr's cowboy boots falling off. Even if someone did manage all the rest of it, and DeOrr didn't scream or cry, his boots would have fallen off, and 'the abductor' would either not notice, or not bother to pick them up - why would he, they didn't fit, anyway? They probably would have fallen off in the campsite at the moment he was snatched. it's ridiculous. An abductor would have left a trial, candy wrappers maybe, but most of all DeOrr's boots. No wonder the boots are so sensitive. :)
Frank Vilt has ' tried to to come up with a scenario that might warrant further investigation based on the sightings.'. Yep, he sure has. And it's so impressive that LE is doing their part, and he doesn't think that LE has REALLY made a big mistake in this - he only THINKS they want to recover this child, (well, obviously they do) but they have to think outside the box (of him being lost) - wel, we know they are thinking outside that box, as the Sheriff said so, in his interview, but he's not willing to expand on what they might be thinking - the FBI report will be critical. So, the PI, whatever his motives in kind of involving himself, seems not to be doing the best job in representing LE. He says he has had probably a hundred tip calls, but beneath the audio it says he has received fifty calls. He might be working with LE, in a roundabout way - well, the more outlandish scenarios the family will go along with, the more we have to wonder why? Why, after a month, do they mention a guy in the store? No mention of this scary, obsessive character with an expensive black Rubicon, despite the sighting of a guy in a black truck with a little boy 'matching our description of our son' - well, that's unexpected. All this, and the eccentric bumbling-seeming manner if the PI may be a drawing out ploy, not quite entrapment? Who knows, except that it is interesting.
'If the PI' - of the PI.
I know everyone thinks the abduction scenario isn't possible but I just wanted to point out that Joseph Duncan used night vision goggles before he murdered Dylan and Shasta Groenes family and abducted Dylan and Shasta.
And they were picked out at random when he drove by and noticed a party at the parents house during the day.
Does any one know what happened to "backward guys" fb?
Family filed a complaint against him with the military.
What happened to the tan Buick?
Snake River http://herwisdon.blogspot.com/2015/09/snake-river.html
part of it runs through Idaho Falls then down and over by the state border.
I don't know what the tan Buick is about, or the stormy which goes with it - I have seen it mentioned, but I don't know any details.
Bethany - why have you have deleted so many of your comments?
Anon @1:44 PM
Thanks
Got it now:
http://www.localnews8.com/news/private-detective-joins-search-for-missing-toddler/34678944
Vilt, a former Kunz family friend who now works as a private detective in Montpelier, was critical of the Lemhi County Sheriff's office for failing to follow up on potential leads. One of them was a tip from a woman who said she saw a boy matching Kunz's description near Caldwell, Idaho. The boy was with a man in an older model tan Buick with Oklahoma license plates and had taken a ride with the woman to get gas.
“I'm not saying that the Lemhi County Sherrif's Office had tunnel vision, but they should have expanded their search and put out an amber alert," said Vilt.
Vilt said that had the Sheriff's Office acted sooner, he believes they could have gotten surveillance footage from the gas station near Caldwell.
“I've called the department several times and they've never returned my call," said Vilt.
For what it's worth, I read every post (unless it's an obvious troll). It's obvious that many here have quite a bit of time, thought, and emotion invested into little DeOrr.
Juliet's post (@ 10:51): That was a well-thought out post detailing what a nighttime abductor would have to do. I'd just like to add another point to your list, if I may. That nighttime predator/abductor would have left tracks himself; not just footprints, but also broken limbs/shrubs as he passed through to the campground.
Anonymous with the Night-Vision Goggles post: Also a good point. Many hunters employ those to in areas where spotlighting is illegal, to scout deer in advance of hunting season. You're correct that it would enable him to spot DeOrr and family, but it would not assist/allow him to navigate a pitch dark forest. A lifelong community resident *may* be able to navigate that area blindfolded (I've got a few elderly hunters who could on our family's land that backs National Forest), but It's highly unlikely.
This tan Buick
http://m.localnews8.com/news/private-detective-joins-search-for-missing-toddler/34678944
I have not read most of these posts, have only scanned a few. Those few that I scanned, I see good points in all of them, some statements which had already led me to my own conclusions earlier on. My conclusion is this:
The little DeOrr family arrived at the campsite area store during the early evening hours of Thursday, the 9th, but did not actually set up camp until around 9:30 pm that evening as was noted by Jessica's mother having received a text message from Jessica when they arrived that night. The clerk who witnessed DeOrr and his truck and baby at the store is credible, IMO; and is likely the only real credible witness that baby DeOrr was ever there with them at all.
It is my belief that Baby DeOrr was killed by daddy DeOrr, Sr on the Thursday evening after they left the general store where DeOrr Sr had tried to console him by buying him candy, which did not work. The baby was tired, hungry, filthy dirty, rubbing and chafing himself in a nasty stinky diaper which needed changing, and which he might have been sitting in for hours. He was inconsolable and pitching a hysterical temper fit, which would be understandable while rubbing a burning rash on his little bottom and feeling dirty and itchy all over.
Further down the road having failed to stop little DeOrrs' temper fit; daddy DeOrr blew his cork, slammed the baby around and beat the hell outta the child, killing him. I would by no means call this an accidental death or one of neglect. It was pure out and out physical abuse and that is no accidental death whether he had ever abused the child previously or not. It is impossible to speculate about Jessica at that point; however, she was likely right there since no evidence has been stated about her being left at the campsite while daddy DeOrr went to the store alone with the baby; and, if she was there, why didn't daddy leave the screaming brawling baby with her to be cleaned up and fed? The question answers itself.
DeOrr & Jessica had three hours from the time they were last seen with their hysterical neglected baby at the store, until they arrived to set up camp at the campsite. This is plenty of time to travel a long distance to get rid of their dead baby or to select a spot nearby, dig a hole and put him in it. They goofed though when they did not bury his blankie, cup & toy with him, but instead tried to make it sound like the kidnapper left these things behind. Duh...
I would totally discount everything else both daddy DeOrr & Jessica have said about events that morning as they are both liars, both trying to make the GGF look like the bad guy who failed to watch their child when he knew nothing about it. They have thoroughly confused the old guy with their lies. Also, Isiah, who has given conflicting statements may very well be in on the cover up of where the childs' body was disposed of; since, why else would he give conflicting statements if he did not have guilty knowledge?
It is my opinion that the child will be found where DeOrr, Sr disposed of him, AFTER plenty of time has elapsed for his violent abusive injuries to have rotted off his little bones and these creeps will forever deny they killed their child; they will stick with their kidnapping lie, and will get away it just like all the others we are familiar with. If I'm wrong, I will certainly apologize. ABB
Bethany
Very few people would believe girls could be taken from their own bedrooms until Polly Klass, Elizabeth Smart, and the like. There are evil evil people everywhere and capable of anything unfortunately. The remoteness I think in this scenario is what is stumping people. I looked up the directions to the campground. From Leadore, go about 4 miles west on Lee Creek Road to Forest Road 105 (left fork). Go 7.5 miles, then turn onto FR 172 (right fork), go 1 mile to the lower campground, 1.5 mile to the upper.
Likely anyone who was there was there on purpose only.
Strong story. Do you have any ref in his language where Deorr Sr. reveals knowledge of himself as the killer?
secretagentman lie #...we lost count.
This is a solid family (say three items, carry a blankie, and get that tattooed daddy on the air)
This is a solid lead (an unknown tipster that remains anon because some pervert might come after her since he already knows what she looks like, what she drives, and what her family members look like).
The person in California is now required to show ID in order to retrieve her own child. (solid policing?)
How does one go about checking an eagles nest?
Anon - I don't know how you are getting Jessica being present at the store at six - the sighting was of a gentleman buying candy for a filthy bawling boy who was in a black truck. ' A gentleman', 'he drives a black truck', 'it was me' - no mention of Jessica. There is no mention of Jessica in the store or in the truck. If DeOrr killed the baby, and Jessica was witness to it, why would or should she cover for him, rather than call 911? If she feared for her own safety in that remote spot, she could have waited until she had opportunity to call while DeOrr was not near her - or she could text her mother to call 911 if she didn't want to speak out loud to 911 for fear of being heard by DeOrr. Your theory is straightforward and likely, in its favour - but as I don't find Jessica at the store, or in the truck at six, I also can't find her witnessing DeOrr losing it and killing the baby, then helping to dispose of his body.
If DeOrr killed the baby, the cadaver dogs would likely have alerted to the truck and this would be solved by now, unless they buried him on the spot, more or less. As a precaution, there would also likely have been disposal of the clothing worn by whoever handled the body.
On July 9th at 10:16pm Jessica texts Trina:Turning my phone off only got 37% battery left. On July 10th at 9:42 am Jessica texts Trina: But I only have 20% battery life so I'm gonna turn my phone off again. Call grandpa's phone if you need to. At 12:38 pm Jessica texts Trina: I got a charger and some tampons in Leadore so we're good now lol.
Was anyone else's cell phone turned off during these times? Why did Jessica need a charger? Most cell phones use a universal plug. Did Deorr, Isaac and Grandpa have different kinds of phones so their chargers wouldn't work on Jessica's phone, or is Jessica's phone the oddball? What type of charger did she get? Auto? There is no electricity at the campsite, so where did she charge her phone? She used her own phone to call 911, why would she risk that if her phone was possibly dying?
Anon at 4.26 - that bald eagle's nest at Cape Canaveral is the one they should have checked out first. I saw it once, and it is like ten mattresses.
DeOrr's actual name is Vernal, which is a clue. It's almost like Canaveral.
Binoculars would have helped.
I don't know why they nest so near to launch pads - thrill seekers.
--
This is quite fun.
Bethany at 12;12 p.m.- I'm sorry, I just realized that I incorrectly attributed your Night Vision Goggles input as Anonymous! Again, it was a valid contribution. I shouldn't try to post on the way out the door. LOL
my posts disappear
Never mind, so many posting to the lie my last post was up there much farther than expected.
Foolsfeedomfolly -thanks, yes, I wondered about that, if an abductor would have left a trail, footprints, etc,in addition to things dropped - I couldn't take a guess, as I don't know what it's like underfoot there, looks varied, dirt, scrub, tall undergrowth - I suppose LE would get trackers in, who can spot anything. An abductor could have waited till morning, I suppose, but a long night, and much more likely to be seen. Though there was no abductor - I'd be amazed if it turned out there had been.
Oakley, thanks for looking out the Buick sighting, though I had found it by then. It sounds like something that happened, rather than a false lead - I should think unrelated. What abductor would be so stealthy as to steal a child from a remote campsite yet also be so disorganised as to need to take his victim hitching a lift to get gas?
Re: Child found in California:
"As it turns out, the boy found at the motel was returned to his mother hours later, police say, but news hasn’t deterred DeOrr’s grandfather."
"They say they found the boy's mother but I don't think they did. If you compare pictures, it's DeOrr – it's really him."
Kunz says he's not the only one who agrees with this theory. "My whole family also thinks he's DeOrr. It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson."
http://www.people.com/article/social-media-controversy-over-missing-boy
The sentence: "It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson." indicates an extreme level of desperation, especially since DNA can prove who the boy is.
He's using this kid for missing text in his book and hoping others will supply him with theories to promote his cause-missing children-of which he well never do a single, solitary thing thereafter.
If anything, more will go missing.
Federal agents and intelligence aren't good bedfellas.
Juliet!!!!!
Good to see you, too!!! ;)
This case has made my head spin, and after awhile I took a step back, looked at the language, and I just don't see concrete proof of murder. There are so many things that could have happened.
I did a lot of research, starting through websleuths just to see what was going on.
They talked about so many missing children's cases where nothing has been found. Nothing. It is always the same story.
Then I was witness to Deorr's family being attacked on social media, and I know everyone will have opinions but some of it was just awful.
I have my own thoughts, I just need more information.
I am hoping the FBI report is public so we know more.
This case baffles me.
Initially my first thought was that the parents were guilty.
But now I can't be sure.
And not being sure, and having children of my own, one who is the same age as deorr jr, with blonde hair......I just read some of my comments and tried to empathise.
I can't imagine how I would feel in this situation and the whole world came down on me. My son is fast. If I look away for a second he is halfway up the stairs giggling like a crazy speed demon. Haha.
I deleted them because I don't know what happened.
I don't want to speculate and cause more hurt to anyone - I need more information. I just feel like there is so much more info I need to base my opinion.
Oakley very good point.
The People story :
BY HARRIET SOKMENSUER @hgsokmensuer 09/17/2015 AT 12:35 PM EDT
It's been two months since two-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr. disappeared on a camping trip with his family in Idaho on July 10.
However, after a Facebook post last weekend caught their attention, the family now believes a boy in California could be their missing toddler.
DeOrr Kunz, the missing child's grandfather, tells PEOPLE that he thinks police may have already found his grandson.
On Sept. 13, a Facebook user named "Maria Red Rum" posted a photo of a blonde-haired boy who was found alone at a Motel 6 in Stanton, California. The photo of the boy was quickly picked up by other users and compared to photos of little DeOrr.
As it turns out, the boy found at the motel was returned to his mother hours later, police say, but news hasn’t deterred DeOrr’s grandfather.
"They say they found the boy's mother but I don't think they did. If you compare pictures, it's DeOrr – it's really him."
Kunz says he's not the only one who agrees with this theory. "My whole family also thinks he's DeOrr. It doesn't make a difference what people are saying, that's my grandson."
Motel 6 employees were unable to comment on the incident; however, Lt. Jeff Hallock told PEOPLE that authorities are confident the little boy, who was found by security "wandering the hotel," was returned to his rightful mother.
"When they found the child they initially checked for missing persons reports," Hallock tells PEOPLE. "Deputies then discovered the mother was staying in one of the rooms."
According to the information report, which was filed for documentation, the mother told authorities she fell asleep. After searching her room, authorities felt comfortable leaving the boy with the woman, who remains unnamed.
DeOrr's grandfather said that he heard that a man in a van who fled the scene had dropped off the boy at the motel. But, Hallock says this wasn't the case.
"There's absolutely no connection to the [Kunz] case," Hallock says as he confirms that there is no mention of a man in any of the deputies' reports.
This news is the last thing the Kunz family wants to hear. After months of trying to find leads, DeOrr's grandfather says they are still "beginning at square one."
"We have nothing concrete," Kunz continues. "He just disappeared."
The toddler was with his parents and grandfather when he went missing at Timber Creek Campground near Leadore, Idaho. The boy's parents thought he was with his grandfather, while his grandfather assumed little DeOrr was with his parents.
After an hour of being unable to find him, DeOrr's family called 911. The Lemhi County Sheriff's Department received the 911 call at about 2:30pm. A spokesman for the department told PEOPLE in July that "Every avenue is being investigated."
But the family is now taking matters in to their own hands. They have recently hired a private investigator, Frank Vilt, who is currently offering a $10,000 reward for information that can help find the young boy.
Vilt, a retired U.S. Marshal, told FOX Q13 that he has been conducting his own investigation into the toddler's disappearance and supports the DeOrr's suspicion of abduction.
"Everything lends to the theory that there could have been abduction," Vilt told FOX.
Vilt ensured that the parents are "absolutely" cooperating with local law enforcement and that he has been passing along his findings to local police.
As part of his investigation, Vilt has started a hotline number for the public to call with any tips: 1-888-852-6505.
While there have been no solid findings, Kunz remains hopeful. "Right now we're in the dark," Kunz, 70, tells PEOPLE, "but Frank knows what he's doing."
Post by Trina Bates Clegg:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=476567755848912&set=p.476567755848912&type=1&theater
Bethany, thanks for the explanation. Yes, you can get to feel disgusted by yourself for even thinking, much less writing some things, I know this. Just was suspecting a bit of trollery, and back pedalling, that's all. :)
Long Post: Part 1 of 2
I found it amusing (*ahem* "interesting")that when Jessica is explaining the little DeOrr sighting, she uses the term gentleman...knowing full well that it was Daddy DeOrr. She is careful to cast him in a complimentary light, yet does nothing to correct any perception of little DeOrr (really filthy, just bawling). How many mothers would let a stranger get by with describing their child that way on any given day? Now, how about their "missing" toddler? Her beef is not with how the store employee portrayed her child, but that the store employee reported the sighting with enough detail to identify Daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr.
DeOrr is plain contemptuous of the woman in the initial interview, as he openly scoffs. He doesn't outright say she's lying or even confused about the time (because he knows she's not)...he aggressively seeks to confuse with "they claim it was at six o'clock that afternoon evening". He's all over the place and outright lying in discounting the day and time of the sighting. Keep in mind that this is BEFORE they were forced to admit they actually arrived the night before (Trina Clegg outed them on Facebook). At that point, they'd allowed for the public to believe that they'd just arrived and set up camp Friday morning (sin of omission-withholding information) and were playing it as DeOrr had taken little DeOrr to the store then. Nowhere in the entire 15:05 minute interview, did Jessica and DeOrr admit the reported store visit was on Thursday evening (7:06-7:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358)...yet, they knew full well it was. More importantly, they intentionally perpetrated the idea that the lady/the store was confused, knowing full well that it was DeOrr w/ Little DeOrr and it was just as the lady said. was indeed asaid they had arrived Thursday evening. They were forced to backpeddle when Trina Clegg slipped up. Deceptive much???
Trina Bates Clegg Facebook post by Anonymous at 6:06 pm refers to child found at Motel 6 in California.
Anon at 6.06- Trina posted her demand for a DNA test when the Motel 6 boy went viral on Facebook. After this, the family seemed to have accepted it was not little DeOrr in the photo, but according to grandpa Kimz, they have now had second thoughts. He was not amongst those who originally commented, or if he did, not on SM.
Tanisha (DeOrr's sister) facebook
Tanisha O'Neal Tompkins
16 September at 15:14 ·
Although the boy that was found in California resembled my nephew baby DeOrr, it has been confirmed that it is not him. As much as we all wanted it to be him and be done with this absolute unreal nightmare we r living, it just isn't... I hope that one day baby DeOrr will be brought home to us... I hope the little boy found in California is safe and being taken care of and his parents realize what our family is going through without baby DeOrr and not take their innocent child for granted again. Thank u to everyone who helped yesterday and all the kind words! We couldn't have done it without u all.
16 September 19.12
I would like to clear up how our family knows the little boy found at a motel 6 in California is not my nephew baby DeOrr. DeOrr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell were called last night by our local detective working on the to look at a better picture of the boy found. They were able to confirm that in fact it is not baby DeOrr. As much as we truly hoped it was, it's just not him. �� as for the boy found we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone... We want to personally thank everyone for sharing our posts and keeping us aware of what's going on! Please continue to share baby DeOrrs face he is still missing ��
Part 2 of 2:
Daddy DeOrr said "Here's the problem. It was me." Something had to have happened after that store visit because DeOrr aggressively attacks the lady's/store's credibility and him being sighted with Little DeOrr in that condition is a problem for him with "It was me.". Jessica was not there (in his account or their quoting the lady's). He immediately begins to play it off as a family visit, but the store employee made no mention of a woman, much less a mom with them inside the store or out in the truck. Obviously, the store employee was disturbed by the father-son interaction because she identified the boy as being in the store and then in the truck (per Jessica's and DeOrr's). DeOrr is seriously sensitive about that sighting. Why? It's not illegal for a dad to take his son to the store to buy candy.
IMO, DeOrr "disciplined" an out of sorts Little DeOrr at the campground and hurt him, hence the candy...trying to assuage Daddy's guilty conscience and quiet DeOrr so he wouldn't get in trouble with Jessica. Or perhaps on the way back to the campground or at the campground, DeOrr lost his temper with what he perceived as disobedience/a temper tantrum and "disciplined" Little DeOrr severely("I knew I was in trouble."). Not to be judgemental here, just stating facts. Both DeOrr and Jessica have tempers, as evidenced by their profanity-laced attacks on numerous SM outlets per those who question or disbelieve them. Jessica has custodial issues with her own children. DeOrr, a trucker by trade, is likely gone from home a lot and has less experience handling a toddler. This being his first child, he likely knows little about childhood development/psychology/raising a child. He also has a driving need to be respected ("As a father..." and the 55 "I"'s in a 15 minute interview about his missing son). Couple that with his need to either be in control or portray himself as such (the way he runs the interview, speaks over Jessica, and then asks the news crew "What questions do you guys have?")... and you're just steps away from child abuse.
It think Little Deorr likely succumbed to injuries from the disciplining or had a seizure and died (likely in the truck, since there were no hits at the campground). His remains could have been disposed of Thursday night or on the Friday morning store run. We're all assuming, by the way, that DeOrr and Jessica were both at the store Friday (he could have dropped her off, buried DeOrr somewhere close by, and come back to join her). They could have buried DeOrr somewhere near the store. ("As his father I believe and I think after being up there, and a lot of people agree with me a lot, that he is no longer up the mountain anymore.") I'd love to know how many people agree with him and what there names are.
This is eerily similar to Casey Anthony's 'feeling' about Caylee being close.
http://q13fox.com/2015/07/14/vigil-held-for-idaho-boy-2-missing-for-four-days-sheriff-rules-out-possible-lead/
7/14/15
“He could be very, very close,” Mitchell said. “He could be very far away. We don’t know but we are covering all bases at this point.”
Thanks for the kind thought re: my dad.
Sorry to have interrupted your posts, Foolsfeedonfolly - it's a great post. It all sounds plausible - my problem with it is that I don't want to believe that anyone killed little DeOrr, unless by accident - so I'll continue to resist the theory and hope it was something else. DeOrr is so upset towards the end of the interview - I hope it's not because he killed his baby. I would not count that an accident, no matter it might have been unintended. Short-fuses, both, yes.
I'm banking on 'you couldn't not see him' meaning that someone didn't see him, and that an accident resulted from that.
Yeah, there's alot of women mi**ing along the Interstate.
FoolsFeedOnFolly;
You and I are on the same train of thought, almost entirely. There's only one thing I question: Where was Jessica when daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr went into the store? They had not yet set up camp so he couldn't have left her back at the campground. They didn't arrive at the campground until after 9:00 pm that evening, while the visit to the store was earlier in the evening. Surely he didn't leave her standing beside the road as he went into the store. So that leaves only one place where Jessica could have been: sitting inside the cab of the truck whether the clerk saw her out there or not. ABB
Juliet- I totally understand your position- I'm none too crazy about my theory either. :/ I hate to think of anyone harming a child, much less the person (people) entrusted to protect that child. IMO, a child is a gift, entrusted to the parent(s) to protect,nurture, and raise. While I psychologically understand how "accidental" child abuse can occur, there is no excuse for it. Personally, I think penalties should be significantly stiffer for parents intentionally harming/killing their children. I consider parenting a sacred trust. Scoffers feel free. ;)
On some level, I think the majority of us sense that sadly, the parents have not been completely honest and forthcoming with information...hence the theories and scenarios. I don't think that the motivation of most is to "nail DeOrr/Jessica" (as least I hope not). It's a missing toddler, as well as the need to deceive that's the issue. It's that DeOrr and Jessica have not concisely, accurately, and in correct order told the public, exactly what happened from the time they arrived in Leadore Thursday until they called 911 on Friday. We're not talking about recalling additional details a few days later. We're talking outright deception regarding days, times, people present, and attempting to discredit a witness. That's The Unexpected.
What if Jessica didn't go camping at all? What if DeOrr took the baby for a couple of days for some mini-me time, but then couldn't handle it, - called Jessica to come out to timber creek, then when she arrived said he couldn't find the baby? Or how about Jessica travelled with grandpa, to keep an eye on him, because really Isaac was doing the driving and the suburban was more comfortable than the truck? Somehow DeOrr was landed with the baby for the journey and couldn't handle how fractious he was after the long drive, especially if he had soiled his diaper and been grizzling for ages before they reached the store? Just suggestions, because Imdon't think anyone has considered those so far - and as they are not the greatest truth tellers, we can't know what they have said about how they all arrived is true.
Anonymous said...
On July 9th at 10:16pm Jessica texts Trina:Turning my phone off only got 37% battery left. On July 10th at 9:42 am Jessica texts Trina: But I only have 20% battery life so I'm gonna turn my phone off again. Call grandpa's phone if you need to. At 12:38 pm Jessica texts Trina: I got a charger and some tampons in Leadore so we're good now lol.
Was anyone else's cell phone turned off during these times? Why did Jessica need a charger? Most cell phones use a universal plug. Did Deorr, Isaac and Grandpa have different kinds of phones so their chargers wouldn't work on Jessica's phone, or is Jessica's phone the oddball? What type of charger did she get? Auto? There is no electricity at the campsite, so where did she charge her phone? She used her own phone to call 911, why would she risk that if her phone was possibly dying?
September 19, 2015 at 5:04 PM
It all makes sense now? IMO adds more questions. How did you get her cell phone message? Integrating, got any more?
Anonymous at 7:41 (ABB)-Good thinking! Since Jessica herself did not assert that she was at the store or waiting in the truck, nor did she or DeOrr attribute the Lady at the store with seeing Jessica at all, I do not believe she was there.
How do we know they didn't arrive at the campground until 9:00p.m.? Because Trina/Mr. Kunz, Frank Vilt, none of whom was there, said so? Because DeOrr and Jessica said so (the same two people who purposefully misled the public about the day and time, attempting to discredit the only outside witness)?
The store in Leadore closes at 6:00 p.m., according to their website, so I'm pretty sure the lady store employee knew what day and time it was. So, my question is where were they for 3 hours? Snake River is about a 2hr drive round trip, assuming you're driving the posted speed limit. Considering DeOrr's "hauling" comment, I'm not sure he'd necessarily honor a speed limit. The Thursday evening store sighting is a problem in more than one way: Little DeOrr 's physical and emotional condition; DeOrr's presence and truck; and it doesn't take a little over 3 hours to drive from the store in Leadore up to the campsite. However, one could conceivably make it to Snake River and back to the campsite in a little over 3 hours.
I *think* Grandpa and Isaac might be the keys to this, except not in the way we think. It would be to their advantage to portray Grandpa as confused, somewhat decrepit, etc. It could be easy to play on grandfatherly/maternal sympathy to sway a family member to support your story, especially if it involves jail time/losing child visitation privileges. Isaac's got issues of his own with his record- he doesn't need any additional trouble. Perhaps the deal was "Just don't involve me." and that's why he was conveniently omitted from their recollections. Maybe that's what prompted Isaac to ask the reporter if he'd spoken to Grandpa.
I'm not accusing anyone here. I'd love for this to be a solvable abduction with a speedy, safe rescue. I'm more inclined to agree with the Sheriff though, I think this will be a marathon rather than a sprint.
Juliet- That's a good point! What if Jessica actually did arrive later with Grandpa & Isaac?
I'd love to know if either Isaac or Grandpa actually saw a live, uninjured Little DeOrr Thursday evening, Friday morning, and Friday evening before 2:30. Wouldn't we all? :)
Yes, Foolsfeedonfolly - you are right. I can't get my head round the fact that some people find it reasonable to 'discipline' babies - it's horrendous, and there is no justification for it, ever. A betrayal of trust, and a sacred trust, as you say. The 'blanket training' brigade make me want to puke. It's all the same, though some find one form of abuse acceptable and a requirement. I can't understand it. Live and let live, but not that.
These parents, I don't know what they are like, beyond that their SM language is abusive, and that's not a good sign. DeOrr wanting a mini-me, that is concerning, too. The deception is clear from the moment DeOrr claimed he didn't know what day it was that day. Like Peter said in one of the most recent blog posts, a little while passes, and it's easy to begin to accept deception, buy into the story, we're so used to lies - heavily paraphrased. I hasten to add. They have misled and withheld information from the beginning, now there are blatant fabrications - so they'll say anything to avoid taking responsibility or blame, and that's probably not new.
Karma- Thanks for bringing that forward!
If that's true...
1. If Trina was getting multiple texts just fine from Jessica, why would the cell phone signal strength be such an issue? Jessica could have tried 911 and texted Trina to call 911 and relay their location in seconds. She seemed to have no trouble communicating with Trina about other "things" during the trip.
2. Why would Jessica need to buy a new charger at a country store (and likely pay a higher price- no slam to country stores intended), when DeOrr had his phone(he "hauled" 1/2 mile down the road to use his)? If Grandpa too had a working cell phone, why the need to buy a charger, just 2 hours from home? I'd be surprised if Isaac didn't have a cell phone with him as well, given his age and SM use. So, with 3 available phones (maybe 4), she had to have a charger Friday morning?
Grandpa Kunz is throwing another spoke in the wheel, so things might soon become yet more interesting. He'd know if it was REALLY baby DeOrr in the motel photo, because he's Granddaddy Daycare, methinks - I'd like to be a fly on the wall listening to the conversation between him and daughter Tanisha just now, as it looks a bit like loggerheads should be expected. I am sure Jessica and DeOrr would have identified him positively in a moment, if really it was him. They ummed and ahhed a bit, Mariah thought he looked just like DeOrr, Trina wanted a DNA test - that's not unreasonable, as she might not have recognised him so well, not having had much contact, but I'd think she'd take DeOrr and Jessica's word for it, that it was not him. All very curious, or not- what's grandpa Kunz up to, contradicting the rest of the family, and the PI, like that?
---
Jessica said he was playing with her grandfather. Trina said grandpa saw little DeOrr playing in the dirt. Grandpa, so far as we know, was shocked to discover he was meant to be watching DeOrr. They are all blaming grandpa - who didn't even know he was meant to be looking after him. Had grandpa even seen him? Did they tell him he was asleep, to account for his possibly having not seen him? Immediately, shock. I wonder about that a lot - shock, I think it might be too strong as a reaction to not knowing where the little boy was, as they would expect he couldn't have gone far and would soon find him. I think that's not what DeOrr said (where's little DeOrr) and that the shock was due to something else.
Foolsfeedonfolly
I do not see any point on Snake River that would be an hour one way from the TimberCreek Campgound. Do you have a point in mind?
Juliet- I hear you loud and clear. It makes me sick too the things that human beings do to one another! If we're the "most evolved species", then God have mercy on us (seriously).
Your mini-me comment is interesting! I had the same impression and found it a little disconcerting. I know several narcissists and it's a scary that their children are not allowed an identity outside of their parents. Granted, it is cute when a child identifies with and imitates a parent(particularly their same sex parent). It's a whole 'nother story when parents are molding the child to their own image. They should be acknowledging, encouraging, and celebrating the child's unique natural gifts, abilities, and interests. At some point, there's going to be a coup and the King/Queen is going to be gloriously overthrown in a full-scale rebellion.
Oakley A.- I'm sorry! I mistakenly typed a 2 hr round trip when I meant 2 hr one way (i.e. 4 hr round trip). Sometimes, my fingers and my brain aren't always on the same team. LOL!
Timber Creek Campground is approximately 2 hrs one way from Snake River Parkway/Campground Idaho Falls, driving the posted speed limits. It seems plausible that one could drive from Leadore to Snake River, dispose of a body there or along the way somewhere (not necessarily a burial even) and be at the Timber Creek Campground in a little over 3 hours. It's just a thought. No one would be looking there, if an abduction happened 2 hours away.
I guess the real question is: If the store closes at 6 (as the website says) and they didn't arrive at the campground until after 9p.m., where were they for 3 hours? Where was Little DeOrr?
They've placed themselves at the store with DeOrr on Thursday (they clarified this after Trina placed them in Leadore on Thursday evening). They insisted in their initial interview that the time frame of their visit wasn't around 6, that it was earlier in the day. So, that makes it earlier in the day, Thursday? If so, they've got an even bigger problem with a 6 o'clock store sighting on Thursday.
Foolsfeedonfolly - yes. :) and the Lil Man thing, when he's a baby, not even out of diapers. I wonder if DeOrr is the type of guy who wants his baby to learn how to be a man, and to stand up for himself, tries to 'toughen him up' with experiences which are age inappropriate, to try to make him become the required reflection of himself? Those guys are scary in how much they don't understand the child, out of the same fold as parents who think a tiny baby is 'naughty' and crying in order to annoy them. Mini-me - it's scary, and often people who view their children in that way don't know it's abuse, perceive their children as property and treat them inappropriately. It seems like too much judgement, but that type of parent is prone to flying off the handle when the child doesn't conform to expectations. The 'mini-me' comment may just be something he's heard other people say, or seen on SM (it's worrying how many parents proudly post pictures labelled 'mimi-me') and said without giving much thought to the implications, or something which is real to him, again without giving much thought to it. :-/
I'm going to sleep now, it's 2.31am and I have to be up early. :)
Juliet I'm sorry if you suspected me of trollery lol.
That was not my intent.
If you would like to read my posts on fb, I have commented underneath a few of the EIN posts - so you can see I stand behind what I say and that i am a real person.
Not a troll. LMAO.
Backpedaling - maybe. I am not ashamed to admit that, if i have changed my opinion. With all of this information it's a lot to take in. That's why I haven't posted for awhile.
Sometimes it is good to sit back and listen.
Foolfeedonfolly it's all good!!!
I knew what you meant, I take no offense.
You have a lot of great ideas.
Bethany-Thanks for the grace with my mistake. I think you've added a lot to the conversation.
That's one of the things I like the most about Peter's site- we seem to have a lot of people who are interested in learning and looking for answers. Unlike a lot of other sites, our posters tend to do research and rationally, logically discuss (as opposed to just wild accusations and flaming anyone who doesn't agree). we actually have a conversation, instead of comments devolving into a free-for-all like a lot of news sites. I like that posters are open to changing their mind should valid new information arise. I also like that people are willing to admit when they're wrong and learn from it. I don't like to be wrong all by myself. LOL!
Well that's very interesting, Jessica's phone was turned off Thurs night and Fri morning, how convenient. I wonder if anyone else's phones were turned off during that fateful trip?
Absolutely FoolsFeedOnFolly!!!!
Thank you for saying that, I appreciate it!!
And I hate to be wrong all by myself too!! Haha
I love to learn new things, and this site is amazing for that.
I don't understand SA as well as a lot of the regular posters, but I love hearing what you and everyone puts together and how everyone works as a team without discrediting anyone else's ideas. It is a good, solid blog with good people.
I am anxiously awaiting news from the FBI, and from Peter too.
My head says one thing and my heart says another, and I don't trust either right now!
Hahaha
FoolsFeedonFolly,
Good question about why did Jessica need to buy a charger.
You'd think she would have charged her phone up before she went on a camping trip. I wonder why the battery was so low. Maybe had a LONG conversation (s) with someone?
It's been deleted, curious about that myself. He's not even commenting from his page or his blog. Awful silent.
Here is another point, if Vilt thinks that the staring man tip is credible, why did he up the reward after the couple called in the tip? Does that mean they only get 10K if their tip brings Deorr back? Doesn't that make it seem like he has no faith in the tip?
Trying to reconcile how the low battery-buying a charger scenario fits with the one bar of cell phone service so "I was hauling 1/2 mile down the road to where I knew I could get a signal" from DeOrr. @:0 (my head swimming)
So, I find it odd that DeOrr anticipates a cell phone signal strength issue problem to the point that he's already in the vehicle and at the location when Jessica calls. We know this because soon after her call begins, we hear dispatch talking to him in the background. Why would he expect her call to fail? Because of the signal strength? If that's the case, then he would have to have scouted that in advance to know where to get a better signal to ensure his wouldn't fail (see the quote above). The only way to know that, since he'd "never been there before", would have been to make or receive a call from that location or to check his phone earlier at that location. Hmmm.
Was he hoping her call would fail for some reason? He sounds sort of grudging when he said she was "lucky". It sounds almost as if he wanted to be the one to call to get his "story" (his word choice) told. He places a heavy emphasis and importance on telling "his story" without being interrupted (his phrasing). It really sounds like story telling, especially if Jessica's phone was indeed powered off Thursday evening through Friday morning/early afternoon. There seem to be a lot of coincidentals and unexplainables in this case.
Fools Feed on Folly,
You wrote
"I found it amusing (*ahem* "interesting")that when Jessica is explaining the little DeOrr sighting, she uses the term gentleman...knowing full well that it was Daddy DeOrr. She is careful to cast him in a complimentary light, yet does nothing to correct any perception of little DeOrr (really filthy, just bawling). How many mothers would let a stranger get by with describing their child that way on any given day? Now, how about their "missing" toddler? Her beef is not with how the store employee portrayed her child, but that the store employee reported the sighting with enough detail to identify Daddy DeOrr and little DeOrr."
What you wrote is interesting.
Could Jessica's description of little DeOrr be considered "disparaging the victim"? Like in her mind she either thinks or believes others will think that is Little DeOrr's own fault he was filthy and just bawling?
Or she is just trying to mimic the emotion of sympathy towards the filthy, bawling toddler but it's coming out wrong?
Odd too how she calls the man a "gentleman".
Foolsfeedonfolly,
Really good point, he could have tested where he would get the signal strength before. I think the crime was premeditated (and I believe not many do and I realize that), so I have no problem believing he could have done that. In fact it makes sense.
Good point how he seems like he wants to be the one to tell the story to 911...he also cuts the Mom off and completely dominates her in interviews so we only hear his version. I also found it very odd how he says he was very "blessed" the Mom was able to get through to 911. He really didn't want her to get through did he?
Very strange thought I just had right now as I'm writing this. Is there any chance that Dad DeOrr actually had Mom DeOrr under some kind of duress/captivity during these events or even the actual crime against DeOrr? Could he have been commanding her to shut off her phone at certain points? Could he have been ordering her to call her Mom (Grandma) to tell her about their need to go buy tampons, so if she ever tries to tell people about what happened he can say "She was completely fine! She had her phone! She called her Mom just to chitchat about buying tampons. She's a liar!" Is it possible he had taken the phone away at certain points or that she was extremely anxious/under duress/ had a feeling something bad was going to happen to her or the kid and so was trying to preserve battery so she was not trapped with DeOrr Sr with no way to call for help. I wonder now if she was being held captive by him during any part of it, it might explain some of the erratic and strange phone behavior from MOm.
I believe it was made up by Vilt & clients to bend the publics minds to abduction. And that could very well be a picture of the father as a child. This was announced the same 72hrs he is stating a truck miles away & accusing grandpa of an axe & coveralls (firewood4camping tools)
What if this man in the Rubicon was a concerned citizen staring to see a resemblance of pictures on news of missing Deorr? What if they made it all up? Three leary actions by Vilt, hired to bend our minds and justify his shady clients. And I hope the FBI sees this clearly as well.
Anon, I think there is something off about the baby picture also. I had commented the phone looks like it is from the 1980's. Also it looks kind of grainy or something. What you suggested about maybe it is a picture of the father as a baby is very possible! What are the odds that this "coincidence" would occur?
As I had written last night, and will write again, after reading everyone's comments and further discussion today, something in me tells me that Dad DeOrr premeditated it, and that he takes pride in having created a "perfect, unsolvable crime" much like the Ramsey's.
Had he released his own picture of himself as a child it would not suprise me. We don't know who that kid was in the picture. The alleged child from the picture was snatched away by his drugged out mother (allegedly).
Angelica - there has to be a real Motel baby who matches the picture as he was seen by the Californian police and returned to his mother by them - Lemhi Coumty Sheriff was in contact with them about the baby, too, so it has to be real.
I don't know what to think about Jessica's texts to Trina, especially the '991' text, if the person posting them is genuine. It could be to let her know they have called 911 and so for her to set off to join them now, in which case Trina already knew what was going on, and Jessica had been phoning her between the 'alibi' cheerful texts, discussing the situation and what to do next. Or it could mean, 'help - phone 991 for me, because I think DeOrr has done something to the baby - we can't find him, it's been ages, but he won't let me call 911, and I'm scared of disappearing, too'.
Who knows what he might have been doing or saying if he was responsible for the baby disappearing, and scared of the consequences? If Jessica didn't know what had happened to the baby, and he wouldn't let her call, she could say 'too late, I texted my mom, so they are going to come anyway' - he might have jumped into his truck and hauled in panic, intending to run away from the situation, then had second thoughts by the time he was half way down the road and decided he better stop and call 911 too, because there would be np I chance explaining running away - so made his call, then carried on the pretence of not knowing what had happened to the baby. I don't know if that could fit without watching the interview again - but Jessica's seeming anger/suspicion towards him is interesting.
The phone being low on power - maybe she had been having long conversations with someone between the texts - it seems likely, as she would have set off with a fully charged phone, surely. Or maybe it was an older phone so needed charging all the time.
Foolsfeedonfolly - somewhere, I think when he was talking about anonymous threatening letters, Peter said, more or less, that the author would sometimes refer to the victim (him/herself) in unexpectedly polite terms. I am wondering if the same would apply if someone knew they were talking about themselves, or in this case DeOrr - if that might be a giveaway that she knew it was him. Or maybe just raised to refer to stranger's that way. But was the creepy guy in the store a man, or a gentleman? I can't remember.
'Strangers' - meh.
Bethany - trolls are real' people, too. :) I have no doubt you're a real person. Back pedalling is fine - I anticipate doing a fair bit more of that myself' but if you delete so many comments it's not going to be easy to remember or learn from your mistakes later. :)
Also, it might make some people less willing to respond to your posts - it leaves theirs rather hanging in the air when others can no longer see in which context their remarks were made. ;-)
Juliet- If my memory serves me correctly, it was the unusually polite (and at points) complimentary tones of the ransom note in the JonBenet Ramsey case. An oxymoron that a person(s) who highly regard you would kidnap and murder your child in your own home...on Christmas Eve/Day no less and a morning you're going to be up early because you're getting ready to fly out on a trip.
Disparaging he victim crossed my mind, as well, when Jessica did not defend the description of Little DeOrr or really Daddy DeOrr as buying an obviously upset, unkempt child candy. That smacks of a grown-up buying off a child, IMO and is the image many would take away from that exchange. Most parents would be worried about that situation possibly being miconstrued, but they are not.
Personally, I felt DeOrr was disparaging Little DeOrr with "this child loses stuff". Most parents are somewhat annoyed at some point about having to constantly pick up after toddlers- the string of toys that go along with a short attention span, the shed clothing/shoes, etc. :) We've all likely witnessed the toddler with one shoe or the lone sock in the grocery cart seat or seen the small tornado left in the wake of a playing toddler. I didn't care for his description of Little DeOrr tripping over his blanket to carry his things either...not while his son is "abducted". The family might privately smile to themselves in amusement at his dogged determination, but it seemed inappropriate given the context. JMO
Angelica- I hadn't really given much thought to Jessica being coerced into complying. Things like that have happened before though, unfortunately. Judging from Jessica's demeanor in the initial interview, her seemingly uncooperative and nearly hostile behavior in the second interview, and the extended media silence vs. the time spent and willingness to patrol and confront non-believers on multiple SM sites. I also get the underlying sense that whatever happened, it was DeOrr's idea and she went along with it for whatever reason, and the cracks we're seeing are from the strain. She definitely reads to me like a woman in conflict with herself and her situation...and it's not an abducted child, IMO.
She was almost palpably angry in the second "family" interview. The question is why? The interviewer was respectful and it was another softball interview. I wonder yet again why they passed on Nancy Grace (not that I'm a big fan), but it would mean instant national exposure for a missing Little DeOrr. For two people who so ardently declared they'd never stop looking and "Daddy will find you.", what are they afraid of? Nancy Grace. She does know how to interview. If they're worried about being misconstrued, they can take their lawyer, her parents,his parents, etc.
Something about knowing someone is weighing your every word would be nerve-wracking I'd think, but I'd think that your love for child, the urgency of the situation, and your need to get help would override your nervousness...at least I think that's how I would see it. Having never been in the situation though, I could be wrong. I'd likely be nervous about the whole TV thing, but I'd feel compelled to do it to find my child. Of course, it is an investigation, so maybe LE advised them not to?
FoolsFeedOnFolly, and others; I do not believe that Jessica is scared of her old man, her baby daddy DeOrr. She's had every occasion and every opportunity to get away from him or to express herself, and to divulge his secret if he had one that she knows about and is now privy too.
Nah... she knew what went down there with that poor child from the beginning. IMO, she is part and parcel to the demise and disposal of baby DeOrr. She could have made a move at anytime she wanted too. She's hiding something herself, whether we want to face it or not.
Just take a look at this baby's photo. He is obviously neglected by his mother; his skin has painful sun rash poisoning on it from being left out in the blazing sun with no protection. Poor little guy. Where was SHE? He was described as wearing boots that were too large for him? Flip-flopping around on his little feet? This would give even an adult blisters on their feet,not to mention the blisters and sores this would cause on the childs' feet.
I think I could have bought my child a decent pair of shoes that fit his little feet, some diaper wipes and some UV sun lotion for his little sensitive body before I went hightailing it off up in the wilderness for him to suffer more torture due to HER neglect. And I CERTAINLY would have changed him before sending him off to a store filthy dirty and bawling in his painful misery. Poor baby, he was trying in every way he knew to tell them of his pain and misery. We get the full description from the store clerk of this poor child being in filth and grime and hysterical at the store?
Good heavens; it only takes a few minutes and a few dollars to take care of your child and to make sure the child is comfortable and not in desperate need of care and attention. This Jessica mama has no shame for the condition she allowed her child to suffer in. THIS was her lifestyle. She never took care of her child or made him her first priority. I have no pity for this POS whatsoever. Sorry. Not an ounce.
Actually, I am really angry at this no-account dredge of humanity, calling herself a mother, neglecting her child the way she did. I'd like to shake her damned liver lose. ABB
Juliet as always thank you for your input.
I know trolls are real people.
I surmise there are a lot out there hiding under bridges haha!
If people don't want to respond to me that's ok.
I understand.
I deleted them because I didn't want to speculate and cause harm.
As far as my mistakes are concerned, I will still learn from them.
Peter changes my thinking every time I read his posts.
I have a long way to go.
Thank you for everything though, it makes me feel good that you even noticed that I had deleted them, as I didn't really think I contributed much to Peter's blog.
Yet Deorr Sr. claims he is a trucker in a media interview.
Is Vilt merely trying to figure out who watched the interview?
I would suspect most that live in the area watched it. Those that viewed the NG segment may have watched it. Those that brought items to "Bella aka Baby Doe" definitely watched it. Of course some members of the search and rescue may have watched it.
Reeks of something weird.
Another interesting Vilt fact. On Friday Sept 11, 2015 when the reward was announced and the "staring man" tip came in, Frank Vilt said they lived in Houston, TX and it would take time to set up a Skype interview with the couple and the sketch artist. But when the tip was announced publicly, they lived in Idaho Falls!
POS liar.
I find Jessica’s pronouns alarming. Below are all of the words spoken by Jessica in the first interview:
Jessica Mitchell: Yes.
JM: Yeah.
JM: It was Friday.
JM: 2:36 is when I called
JM: They thought it wa, it might have been like a part of a shoe- or something
JM: But they said “go check that out”.
JM: Pretty...
JM: ...the support around us is what’s I know, keeping me together because if we didn’t have all of our family, the minute I called my Mom and she was up there in a matter of hours and same with the rest of our family they were just up there
JM: -there around us.
JM: No we both did.
JM: Yeah especially after screaming his name, we have nicknames for him, no sound of him, no crying
JM: Yeah he’s very attached to us.
JM: And… we didn’t hear people around us, we didn’t see anybody, we have-
JM: We just don’t want anything twisted.
JM: We’ve-
JM: One thing that concerned me-
JM: I just, somebody at the store um in Leodore said, it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw um a gentleman and a younger blond boy matching our description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him and he was just bawling in a black truck. That is the only other-
JM: He drives a black truck-
JM: Earlier. It was earlier that day.
JM: Yeah. From-
JM: Yeah he was with my Grandfather
JM: Ten minutes.
JM: Shoes fall off, anything…
JM: Yes.
JM: We will continue to look until he is found. We don’t care how long it takes we, and we think as many people that have shared the story and continue to share his pictures and things like that, if somebody has him, they will eventually bring him back.
JM: Somebody will come forward with some sort of information.
JM: Yes. Keep sharing photos, keep-
JM: This is his blanket, he doesn’t go anywhere without his blanket, his cup or his monkey and all three of them were left at the campground and since he-
JM: Yes.
JM: Yeah.
JM: Yes. Because-
JM: this is the blanket that we brought him home in from the hospital, this is his, this is what comforts him, any and all times. Um...
JM: Yeah.
JM: We’ll never stop looking until we get you home.
JM: Just if somebody has him please don’t hurt him, just bring him home safely to us-
JM: -where he belongs, even if you have to just leave him at a store where somebody else will see him and bring him home safely to us, I don’t-
JM: Yeah, just drop him off somewhere-
JM: -where somebody is at, so that they can see him and bring him home.
Here are the things that Jessica is willing to own with a first person singular pronoun (I, me, my):
I called
keeping me together
I called my mom
One thing that concerned me
my grandfather
She owns nothing related to DeOrr. We didn’t hear anything, we didn’t see anything, this is the blanket we brought him home from the hospital in, we have nicknames for him, we will continue to look, we don’t care how long it takes, bring him home to us, matching our description of our son.
The lack of the pronoun "I" from the mother of a missing child is highly significant. There is nothing more personal to a woman than her own child.
-Peter Hyatt, Billie Dunn Pt. 4
"We" is used by the guilty in hopes of sharing guilt with others. It is highly unexpected from a mother of a missing child.
-Peter Hyatt, Billie Dunn Pt. 4
In the new interview, she says nothing at all.
K.M.
KM - wow! Jessica didn"to say much, but presented like that - very interesting. Follow the pronouns in action, I can see better how that works now. Thanks.
--
Re filthy DeOrr in truck, it is worrying that she does not say 'that was not my son' rather than 'he drives a black truck'. If she was so sure it wasn't and could not have been him, where is the denial? She was asked to address whatever rumours might concern her - she was able to choose her owns, she didn't choose to say it was not little DeOrr. :-/
'own words'
Re: Anonymous at 8:44
I think you may have misunderstood. Perhaps my early morning post wasn't clear-My point was that Jessica is strong-willed in her own right and not the type, IMO, to be cowed by a man. For whatever reason, she "allowed" DeOrr to be front and center in the initial interview and interjected where necessary. I don't believe she has any trouble speaking her mind. LOL
IMO, I don't think she particularly wanted to do the initial interview either. Whether that was due to nervousness at the attention, nervousness concerning possible questions they might not have good answers for, or what I don't know. She shoots a number of distrustful looks at the interviewer/camera people in the first interview. As DeOrr answers certain questions, she's weighing the interviewer/cameraman's reactions to see if they're buying DeOrr's account. You can see it on her face multiple times. Innocent people expect to be believed because they know they're telling the trust. They're righteously indignant when they're not believed. IMO she's not; she's distrustful. Forgive the analogy, but it's a little reminiscent of a trapped animal. Again, strictly my own opinion.
I am in no way excusing anyone who had any part in this toddler being missing in any way, shape,or form- accidentally or otherwise, covering up, withholding information, or obstructing justice if that's the case. Confession is indeed, good for the soul.
"because I didn't think, I didn't want to try and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off. So I went DOWN to where I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile DOWN the road"
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/08/deorre-kunz-unintended-death.html
In that "half mile" down the road...what was there? How often was he there? Was he there before? Was he with his son at that location previously? How did he know that at that specific location, he would get service? Why does his mind go to that place, so much so, that it is highly sensitive to him?
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/
7/15/15
"We are granting their wishes and staying DOWN here so that those divers can be completely focused on finding that little boy if he is in there, and that is why we are DOWN here and we are doing our part by searching farther DOWN," said Tanisha Kunz
I'm curious why this statement was the primary focus to the parents and Tanisha (who as I remember was staying together on the mountain). An explanation of why they would be seen searching "DOWN" is part of the cover-up. Maybe Deorr suddenly remembered something incriminating he down left there???
'We'll find you, son' Parents of missing Idaho boy believe he was ...
fox43.com/.../well-find-you-son-parents-of-missing-idaho-boy-believe-he-...
Jul 13, 2015 - In an interview with EastIdahoNews.com, Deorr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell say ... “They have torn that creek UPSIDE DOWN and inside out.
Family holds vigil for missing toddler | News - Home - Local News 8
www.localnews8.com/news/Family-holds-vigil-for-missing.../34151958
Jul 13, 2015 - The boys parents, Jessica Mitchell and Deorr Kunz Sr. held a vigil ... world could be changed and turned UPSIDE DOWN forever," Kunz Sr. said.
Search for Crystal Rogers. Aired 8-9:00p ET - CNN.com - Transcripts
www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html
Jul 15, 2015 - Two-year-old Deorr Kunz at the Timber Creek campground with his father, .... in a split second, your whole world is UPSIDE DOWN and vanished
That baby is "Down" in a mine shaft. Mark my words.
Juliet,
I will read/write more later on when I have more time, but I wanted to respond to your post about the 911 text from Mom to Grandma.
I saw a show once (think it was 48 hours) where a guy kills his wife and after he has done so, he texts his other girlfriend "911" to let her know that he had killed his wife, because the girlfriend knew he had been planning on killing the wife. He then called the cops with a BS story about how his wife accidentally died from having weights crush her in their weightroom.
Honestly, I think that is the most likely explanation for the "911" text to Grandma was to let Grandma know that they (or he) had killed baby DeOrr.
I have also thought the text (or call) to the Mom about tampons (and yes I do know they actually bought some) was some kind of signal to the Grandma to let her know what they were doing.
My initial gut feeling on this case, after I heard about the alleged life insurance policy and heard the deceptive language from Grandma was that it was the 3 of them--Grandma-Mom-Dad who planned baby DeOrr's death.
Again, this is merely a gut feeling.
But absolutely, I would think the 911 text to Grandma was letting her know they or he had killed baby DeOrr.
Anon K.M.
On the flip side
The pronoun "we" is also a way to describe herself and another person. They were sitting together. "We" also denotes togetherness; it indicates a relationship between persons. Maybe it is together in cuplubility but nevertheless. The concern is she is showing no individual involvement.
Omission of the pronoun "we" is significant, particularly when the individuals are spouses. Which they probably consider themselves as they live together. Like if she had said my boyfriend and I several times.
Also our is a possessive pronoun she used with son.
I and we are personal pronouns and don't show possession.
I would have been more hopeful also to have heard a strong I pronoun from her in the second interview. Or him for that matter he said "you".
Oakley,
I agree that because she was sitting with DeOrr her use of "we" is not as alarming as it otherwise would be.
You are also right about how "we" denotes togetherness. Considering DeOrr Sr.'s obvious sensitivity about the truck and calling 911, as well as his lengthy and over the top praise of law enforcement, I find it telling that Jessica uses the language of closenss. I believe she is not mad at him, as some have suggested based on her body language, and they share any culpability there may be.
The overall impact of her use of "we" (and I agree it is more appropriate since they were together) is that she has said absolutely nothing personal about her son since he went missing.
She has never used his name, ever.
The only time DeOrr Sr. said his name in this interview is when he is quoting himself speaking to grandpa:
"...so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa, uh, “Where is, you know, where’s little Deorr?”
This is the only place in the entire interview DeOrr Sr. uses his name, and it is the only place in the interview (to my belief) that DeOrr says "you know," indicating his awareness of the interviewer.
For comparison, DeOrr Sr. says "Sheriff" 6 times. "Sheriff Dave" is mentioned twice by name.
Jessica spoke much less, but I noticed that DeOrr does not use "we" in the manner and consistency of Jessica:
"Um, I’ll be I I’ll be going up, um with and I’ve just come down to get any resourceI can get to go back right back up today, um what questions did you guys have?"
Jessica is sitting right next to him. Is she not going up? Did she not come down with him? If she is, and she did, why isn't this "we"?
Fifty yards away and ten minutes uh but the time we, I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up from the [creek] and I actually seen there were some things down there, little minnows I thought he would just love, so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa, uh, “Where is, you know, where’s little Deorr?” he, immediately shocked he says "I th- he came up to you.” cause it’s such a small area that’s what a lot of people they don't understand, they just assume how could you let your kid out of your sight?
Why does DeOrr change from "we" to "I" at the beginning of this statement? Where is Jessica? Did DeOrr come back up from the creek by himself? Is she still at the creek? (She might be, I do not know.)
Does anybody know if she came up from the creek with him at the reenactment? If she did, I wonder about this "I" in describing the events of finding him missing. If he was with Jessica, and they came up together, do you think it should be "we"?
Why don't we know where Jessica was, yet? DeOrr Sr. rambled on forever about why he was in his truck and how amazing the search was. Then he asks "um what questions did you guys have?"
How about how, where, when and with whom did your son go missing? He had told us nothing about DeOrr's disappearance at the time he asked that question.
(continued..)
The interviewer started with the question, "Um, alright Deorr so take us back, was it Friday?" which allows DeOrr Sr. to start anywhere on Friday that he would like. He chooses the 911 call instead of his son going missing? He has to be prompted to tell us what happened to his son?
Again, you are right about the fact that Jessica was next to DeOrr when she made this statement.
I do find it alarming that this means she has said nothing personal about her son in the entire time he has been missing. She has never even said his name. She didn't even speak in the second interview.
Jessica is completely absent from DeOrr's description of the search.
Even before the search and rescue, there is no statement that she searched for him (or that either of them did, for that matter).
"Uh we searched for… after about twenty minutes and in a dead panic not knowing where he was in such a small area and not knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble."
DeOrr can't commit himself to saying "we searched" before they called 911. Jessica is absent in his statements about the search and rescue mission, it is only DeOrr who is speaking to investigators, who is making phone calls, who is coming down for resources and going back up.
Where is she in his language about the things that happened? He seems to use "we" mostly in the context of making decisions (to go exploring, to call 911) and having hope.
Why hasn't Jessica, the mother, ever said one personal thing about her missing baby? It alarms me.
K.M.
http://www.aclweb.org/anthology/C08-1006
4.1 Deception Indicators
...
(1) Lack of commitment to a statement or declaration. The speaker uses linguistic devices to avoid making a direct statement of fact. Five of the indicators fit into this class: (i) linguistic hedges (described below) including non-factive verbs and nominals; (ii) qualified assertions, which leave open whether an act was performed, e.g. I needed to get my inhaler; (iii) unexplained lapses of time, e.g. later that day; (iv) overzeal- ous expressions, e.g. I swear to God, and (v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road.
(iv) overzealous expressions, e.g. I swear to God,
Trust me with such a small area...'
(v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road.
D: that we don't know is...I come to find, I didn't know the area, and I didn't know, I ..there, it's very open but you can't see much ...there's a road that goes up and along the top - we're camped underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and you can go up above the reservoir, and I didn't even know the road was, did that, I didn't know the road was up there, and as I travelled up there myself, I could've found out [?] I could see everything that was going on at the campsite, but you can't see out - you can't see up, you can't see round and if anyone comes to the bottom of your camp ground you can't even see they are...
There is a reason he gave us this information. This paragraph contains a clue.
imagrandma,
Do you think the reason he gave us this information is to explain how it is possible for a kidnapper to take DeOrr? He also makes a point to tell us that you couldn't hear someone in the camp because the creek is loud.
I think how a kidnapper could snatch DeOrr from the campsite is sensitive to DeOrr, which I find unsurprising given the unlikely nature of that possibility.
I said this several days ago, but I should tell you (and Oakley, and anyone else reading) that I think they are guilty. This could impede my judgement about analysis, so I encourage input (thanks, Oakley) and urge caution in what I have posted.
I'm going to try to stop posting on this topic, but every time I hear another change in this story (Come to think of it, I did see a Rubicon! We were looking for a fishing hole, not just exploring! Grandpa was in the camper, not standing there! Isaac was fishing, no wait, he was with Grandpa!) it makes me angry, especially after the ludicrous sensitivity and brown-nosing of law enforcement DeOrr showed in the first interview, and I feel compelled to comment.
K.M.
K.M.
Deorr Sr. does use I more than Jessica. Peter breaks a lot of them down in context in his analysis.
"we, I, seen him to the point I figured out he was gone"
He says he is the one who asked ggp where he was. Jessica may very well have still been down where the minnows they wanted to show him were. He changes to I because he alone discovered he wasn't with ggp.
The "reenactment" would clarify that.
There was a delay in calling 911 and they initially did not "agree" about making the call Peter finds linguistically. I am sure this is why that portion leaves her out.
I have not followed SM statements but I also find it fundamentally odd that she has not said his name in anything published and wonder if she has at all.
K.M. said...
Do you think the reason he gave us this information is to explain how it is possible for a kidnapper to take DeOrr? He also makes a point to tell us that you couldn't hear someone in the camp because the creek is loud.
When I heard about the creek being loud, I considered he couldn't hear Deorr Jr. In the water while he was drowning, (rationalizing and giving himself an excuse)
I've also thought there could have been a different campsite in the beginning (maybe the area down a half-mile) where Deorr drowned due to his neglect. I think it happened Thursday night and they could have spent Friday morning, moving their campsite to prevent the finding of evidence. ??? I have no support for this, just an overall hunch. I believe they need to search for the small area protected by walls.
Yes, it becomes intense after so much analysing but it is serving a purpose for me at this time. I have become a serial poster and I apologize to readers.
K.M.
I didn't think your comments were unbalanced but you're welcome.
Oakley,
Thanks, I hope they weren't unbalanced, I just want to admit that I think they are guilty and I'm not as objective as I should be to analyze.
I'd love your opinion and imagrandma's on this part of DeOrr's statement:
"He, uh, was right with us, where it's at, I mean I thought it would be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls and mountains, and there's not much space around there he could go, and our biggest concern was the creek, which was knee deep and a few feet wide, but he's a little guy."
Peter said:
"The need to explain the location is sensitive and this may be the words that are consistent with very responsible parents. It may be that he blames himself for choosing this location, therefore, he feels the need to explain (justify) its choosing: enclosed by walls and mountains (positive) and not much space (negative; what there isn't)."
Trina said that her father (great grandpa to little DeOrr) chose the campsite, that he had been there before, over twenty-five years ago.
Knowing that Trina says grandpa chose the campsite and not DeOrr Sr., (which I believe wasn't known at the time of Peter's analysis), do you think the sensitivity of why he chose the campsite is related to something else?
Perhaps why they drove so far to go camping in a remote area, arriving late at night, instead of camping at Snake River near their home?
K.M.
Well, just to throw some more speculation into the mix, sadly, as we don't have the letter Kellen Marson claims he was sent.
Part one
Angelica, and anyone else who suspects Trina of involvement, especially of pre-meditated murder - where might the letter to Kellen Marson, supposedly sent to him by a friend of Trina, fit in with such a scenario? I know he's a truth-bender and a fantasist, but I think there was a letter, this because Trina, when questioned on the local news 8 Facebook, by Asia Payne, panicked, went on about having only a couple of friends who couldn't have written it, then deleted all her comments. She didn't say that she did not write it herself, but I don't think that question was asked - even so, she was scared off by the questions which were asked. As I recall, Trina's friend had supposedly asked him for help on Trina's behalf, and said Trina had confided to her that she was worried about grandpa being taken on the camping trip, that she thought he was being taken advantage of, and that they took him along so they could make out that grandpa was meant to be looking after little DeOrr - thereby implying that she suspected that they planned for little DeOrr to disappear. This is like Chinese Whispers - my recall may not be reliable, but I believe that was the outline of it. This is a strange episode - presumably the letter arrived after the parents' interview, and it was that which she wanted him to use his magic tape recorder on. How desperate is that? - why would anyone do that, if they felt he may be able to find something incriminating of themselves? Trina, if she was involved, would not want him uncovering that through his reversals IF she believed in reverse speech. If she believed in it and also suspected Jessica and DeOrr, she might approach him but she also would not want it made public, or for Jessica and DeOrr to know she either wrote the letter, or that a friend of hers had done so. Marson, megalomaniac, could not resist putting the letter on his website, despite how wrecking an effect it would have to have upon Trina/Jessica and DeOrr's relationships,once it became public. He quickly removed it, though it's hard to imagine that damage was not done, and Trina very compromised, regardless of who authored the letter. (Does anyone, anywhere, have that letter saved? Marson presumably, but he's not sharing).
DeOrr and Jessica's reaction to Marson can be looked at as fear that he was on to them, or as anger at what he was doing to them - publicly accusing them of the cold-blooded murder of their son in order to claim on a large insurance policy, then turning up at the store where also they were, offering his help to search, with his twisted useless ankle - p*ss take or what? It would've seemed that way to me. DeOrr, despite Marson's claims of threats and intimidation round the store encounter, reacted quite amiably about it on Marson's page, welcoming any help in searching for DeOrr, even his. Marson reacted by deleting DeOrr's comments - which is his pattern, whenever he is shown up as being untruthful or getting things wrong - delete, delete, and that somehow unsays what he has said, no longer leaving it open to questioning.
Part two
So what of Asia Payne's mention of the letter, and it scaring off Trina? Is it the letter (Angelica), which makes you think that Trina might be trying to frame her daughter and son-in-law? That maybe it was she who encouraged Jessica to take out an insurance policy (if there is one) set up the camping trip, saying it was grandpa's idea, and that it was he who wanted to return there after twenty-seven years - but it was really her doing, and to facilitate it, to get Jessica and DeOrr to go to this remote place (which she knew of) - she'd join them herself on the Sunday, as grandpa would like that, and Jessica she knew, would be pleased to see her, and it would help further repair the relationship. As relationships hadn't been great, little contact with her grandson, the reconciliation process must have begun fairly recently. If her concern was financial, grandpa's money - could it have seemed Jessica's family was drawing too heavily on Trina's inheritance, perhaps, whilst she herself is also in dire straits? If both she and Jessica have debts, they need money. Retrospective family-planning on Trina's part, perhaps? The disappearance of the inconvenient, hardly known grandchild might raise some funds and free up more of Jessica's time for looking after grandpa. Jessica needn't find out. The insurance pay-out would solve all their financial problems. It's possible she could have been thinking like that. That line of thought seems to have to come unstuck with the six o clock sighting - which has to put DeOrr central to whatever happened next - so, I don't see how that could be it. Even if Trina was in a bad financial situation and had murderous intent towards little DeOrr - how could the rest of it fit in with the idea of her either trying to frame them, or making DeOrr disappear herself, without them having to know it was she who was behind it? Even if she was laying in wait at the campsite to snatch away DeOrr, there is still that six o'clock sighting, plus it's all too complicated and murder mystery like - poor Trina, to be so speculated upon. How does the letter fit in? We know all Marson's methods are suspect - so has he made his reversals on information/suspicions which were outlined to him in the letter? Was he told about the insurance policy, and also that the grandmother suspected murder? Why would she be saying such a thing against her daughter to him, or to a friend, rather than hoping and praying otherwise, and waiting on the investigation? Now that would be iffy, but we don't have the letter. It's all very strange, but the simplest, most likely explanation is often the right one - framing her family, or staging her own grandchild's abduction seems too way out there to be likely. If not, how does anyone account for the store sighting, which seems like a stressed father not coping, trying to placate his son, who is for some reason filthy, despite he had presumably, only been sitting in the truck, travelling, for hours? Plus there's all his concern about 'such a small area' and not a trace of his son found. I think it's likely other family was up there at some point, doing or helping do something, in the black truck and blue Chevy they were concerned about, probably worried those vehicles had been spotted in the area. So, my wonderings round that - I hadn't been wiling to consider it up till now, as there is only social media talk round there being insurance - but there's only social media talk round other things which are only possibly an aspect of this case too, and which several of us have considered - plus it's interesting trying to figure out how Angelica got to considering that Trina might be behind DeOrr's disappearance - so now I get how she didn't pull it out of nowhere, outlandish as it seems, and in this case, how everything is worth considering. It would be so interesting if that letter was still around anywhere - someone would be able to work out if Trina had written it.
It's not 'walls and mountains' - it is 'walls of mountains' - at least I think that is what he says, for those mentioning it further up the page.
Oh, forgot to mention - if there is insurance, was it Jessica who bought the policy, who was paying, and who might have encouraged her to take insurance out on a baby?
WE decided WE were going to do a little exploring...but (only) I came back up from the creek. It DOES sound as though DK came back from the creek by himself.
It is particularly interesting in light of DK and J's response to the question about who first discovered baby DeOrr missing.
"WE BOTH did."
Regarding the possible life insurance policy as a motive for murder: It is horrible to say, but I think if money was the motive for premeditated murder, the perps would have killed him and produced a corpse which bore the marks of accidental death. (Falling or drowning)
The fact that there is no body makes me think that it has been hidden because it has injuries which are inconsistent with accidental death.
K.M.,
Good catch.
Dad DeOrr does change to "I" when talking about going up from the creek and discovering little DeOrr missing even though he starts out with "we" went exploring blah blah.
He also does use "I" even when Mom is sitting right next to him saying "I will be going back up to search". That actually did kind of catch my attention when I watched the interview.
I think him using "I' when talking about going up from the creek speaks to the fabrication of the story.
Him talking about "I" will be going back up to search speaks to his domination of the whole plan/situation.
I am on the fence about whether Mom was actually involved in the killing or whether he had her under some kind of duress/captivity.
The 911 texted from her phone to Grandma's I believe was to tell Grandma that baby DeOrr had been killed. BUT we do not know who texted it. It could have been Dad texting from her phone. Especially with her (or Dad if he had the phone) telling the Grandma she was intermittently shutting off her phone. Who knows if Dad could have had her phone all along or was taking it off and on? Something was going on.
Imagrandma,
Interesting breakdown you did.
You wrote
(v) rationalization of an action, e.g. I was unfamiliar with the road.
D: that we don't know is...I come to find, I didn't know the area, and I didn't know, I ..there, it's very open but you can't see much ...there's a road that goes up and along the top - we're camped underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and you can go up above the reservoir, and I didn't even know the road was, did that, I didn't know the road was up there, and as I travelled up there myself, I could've found out [?] I could see everything that was going on at the campsite, but you can't see out - you can't see up, you can't see round and if anyone comes to the bottom of your camp ground you can't even see they are...
There is a reason he gave us this information. This paragraph contains a clue.
I agree! It does. I have wondered about his description of the layout and how ideal it would be for a kidnapper. There is a clue here. I think it may indicate pre-planning of the fake story and also of the crime itself. But I'm not sure.
Hi Juliet,
Regarding the letter you are referring to, unfortunately, I have not heard of it, or seen the reverse guy's page. I tried to go on it when people were talking here about him, but was not able to. What does he do? Does he reverse people's speech? I was aware he was accusing the parents' of wrongdoing from what was being said here, but other than that, I have no other info about him.
I starting suspecting Grandma, because of her deceptive language that I felt pointed towards more than just "covering" for her daughter and DeOrr Sr. I also find the calls and texts to her from Jessica quite suspect. Just chitchatting about tampons right before or after baby DeOrr vanishes or something more? Just randomnly texting 911 to Trina soon after baby DeOrr vanishes (and before they actually call 911), or something more? Trina's story about disposing of the diaper tied up in a tree was a giant RED FLAG for me. Just tidying up the search site or something more nefarious? I vote for a LOT more nefarious.
From what I understand of what you have written, she has given a letter that supposedly was written by a friend which contains incriminating suggestions about Mom and Dad DeOrr possibly framing Grandpa to reverse speech guy?
This doesn't surprise me. She will blame the daughter. She will take whatever "truth" is in the situation like Grandpa was being framed (which he probably was, by Mom, Dad and Grandpa) and use it to divert attention away from her to get people to think that Mom and Dad are the only bad guys, she knows of their ill intent, and she is concerned about it.
I initially thought it was her framing the Mom and Dad but I have come to think it was all 3 working together, but I think Grandma came up with the idea. DeOrr Sr. I think planned a lot of it. Mom I think went along with it, however, I am not convinced she was not under some kind of duress at some points during it.
Unfortunately, the communications with Grandma about such mundane things, alerting her of battery being saved, texting "911" to GRANDMA before they even call 911. Grandma knew what they were going to do to DeOrr. Absolutely. That is what I believe. Disposing of his diaper. Yes I think she will attempt to frame Mom and Dad. Absolutely. There was no reason for her to be tampering with any evidence of DeOrr's (alleged) presence at the campsite. We will never know if she made that up about the diaper, but regardless, it shows she is either lying or had tampered with evidence of DeOrr's alleged presence there, creating chaos and confusion for LE investigators who will never be able now to prove he was there if he even was.
In the 48 hours show I saw, the guy kills his wife and then texts his girlfriend "911" to let her know he has killed the wife and he does it before contacting police. The girlfriend that received the 911 text was actually charged I believe with being an accessory/having knowledge of the crime just based on that text! The 911 text to girlfriend was also instrumental in them figuring out the guy had actually killed the girlfriend instead of her accidentally being crushed by weights in the weight room!
LE are probably onto Grandma. That is probably why Grandma is trying to pin the blame on Mom and Dad completely.
Angelica - thanks for your response. I remember you posting about these things, and your reasons for thinking in that way. I agree Trina's language is deceptive - I have been thinking that's due to her trying to cover for Jessica, and DeOrr - and she seems very concerned that grandpa should not fall under suspicion. I assumed you must be aware of the letter, but now I come to think of it, you were quite late in coming to the case, and had to catch up on it - not much has been written about the letter, and what was written was early on, and I don't remember where, besides on Kellen's website, but he soon removed it. To me, if it exists (and I can't imagine Marson fabricating that despite he is unethical - that would be a step too far, even for him) it creates a lot more questions around Trina, especially her motives in either writing it, or getting a friend to write it. she denied that either of her friends could have done so - she probably doesn't want to lose her friends and knows they didn't write it. So, that's interesting, because who then could've written it? Marson, I would think, looked for 'reversals' based on information he got from the letter. Whether he believes his reverse speech is for real or not, I think he only finds what he is already looking for - it's difficult to make out anything which is supposed to be there if you haven't first read what he claims is being revealed through listening to what they said when the sound is reversed. I see all reference to the baby DeOrr case, and all the reversals he made which included the parents' and deputy's words, and others, have been removed from his website - there's not a trace found. :) - good thing, too, as the man is a slanderer and a mischief who only intends to find villainy in everyone whose speech he reverses. I'm interested to know you didn't know about the letter, as to me, that would seem the strongest indication that Trina is either more involved or knows more than she is saying, and had reason to either suspect or try to place blame on Jessica and DeOrr. I see your reasoning, but for the diaper, I can't help thinking it could have been thrown out without much thought, and she would not have been thinking in terms of evidence and crime scenes, not at that stage, if she really believed he was lost. She knows though, that he only 'appeared' to have vanished - so your take on it is just as possible, and she may have been knowingly trying to discard evidence. The rest though, I think could be accounted for as attempts to cover for her family, rather than incriminate them, it doesn't seem quite strong enough to draw the conclusion of evil scheming murderous grandma - the letter does create more questions round Trina's knowledge and possible involvement, thus my thinking that you knew about it, and that additional knowledge had caused you to feel quite as strongly as you do, but it isn't the angle you are coming from, after all - I will go back and read your posts again, because I find your suspicion fascinating for being so strong, yet haven't quite understood how you arrived there. I wish that letter was around for analysis, I'm sure you would have a field day with it. :-) Marson must have it, and surely would have passed it onto LE, if the disappearance of a little child is more to him than entertainment and a furthering of sales of his magic tape recorders - so, we may get to see it yet, if this case ever goes anywhere. I think he is in rather a lot of trouble, maybe had a 'cease and desist', at least - not entirely unexpected.
Sorry, I didn't answer your question. Yes, he listens to speech in reverse. He then finds hidden 'truths' in their words - it's suggestion, as the words the listener is meant to hear in the reversals, which he posted on his page, are always printed above the sound file. If one listens without looking at what he says can be heard, nothing is discernible. It appeals to the gullible, and so he soon picked up a following when he posted reversals of Jessica and DeOrr's interview. He said, through the reversals, that the parents had murdered the baby in cold blood, and that there was a VUL insurance policy. He claimed a lot of success for solved cases due to reverse speech - the baby DeOrr case, however, appears to be the only case in which he has involved himself, and he doesn't seem to be having great success with it, to date. Basically, he is an entertainer - his main line is comedy hypnotism. Bad taste to branch out into missing children, though no doubt it would help sell a few more of his magic tape recorders, and bring in a new crowd. If there was a letter he should have turned it over to LE rather than posting it on his website - he had no concern for how much that would compromise her. Grandma maybe is canny and knew he would find in the reversals 'evidence' of the 'concerns' she had outlined - or grandma is desperate and gullible, and really thought he could find the truth about what happened to the baby if he listened to the interview. I doubt she expected the letter, whoever wrote it, to appear on his website.
Speculation:
[Background: Deorr is just bawling. He's in his "I'm just like my mom, I never shut up" t-shirt. The apartment is filled with the smell from his diaper]
Jessica: I'm so sick of this situation, we're living with my mom, I can't even buy nail polish, I can't even buy tampons FFS, I'm going to kill myself, Can you make more money or something???
Dad: SHUT UP! AND MAKE THAT KID SHUT UP!
Jessica: He's two, but almost three! And why am I always the one supposed to -
Dad: I AM A TRUCK DRIVER. YOU'RE AT HOME PAINTING NAILS. *YOU* WANTED THIS. YOU SAID, "THIS TIME AROUND, I WILL BE THE BEST MOTHER IN THE WORLD". NOW GO CHANGE HIM!!
[Jessica leaves]
TBC: Speaking of which, doesn't Deorr have a "VUL life"...?
Hi. I'm late to the game so can someone explain in more detail JM texting 911 to Trina? Who made this known? Trina or someone else?
Piston - it was posted by Anon earlier on this thread, so I don't know if it's reliable or true, the same with the rest of the texts, and any information which has come through social media rather than from reliable news sources, or from the family's own words posted on Facebook pages. There is no reason to make stuff up, but that's it to say some people don't or can't find reason to do that. It's the Internet, you know? :) It can get to be like Chinese whispers, and one can sometimes watch that as it happens. It's best to go back to July and read all the earlier blog posts on DeOrr up till the present. There are a fair few, but if you stick to reading Peter's analyses, and watching the videos, you will soon pick it up - going through the comments also would take a lot more time, and they include speculation along with reader analysis - so to catch up with the case proper, and Peter's analyses, it's best read his posts and watch the videos.
Anon at 8.28 - the family was living with DeOrr Sr's father, grandpa Kunz, the one who has given several interviews. They were not living with Jessica's mother, Trina Bates Clegg. The great grandfather of the baby, grandpa Walton, is Trina's father, Jessica's grandfather, and he lives with Trina.
Awful quiet today. Calm before the storm?
I wonder if a Grand Jury will be convened once the FBI finished their analysis?
Do they need a grand jury for indictments in Idaho? I was thinking about the reward, strange how it was raised after the staring man tip came in. Maybe the money is actually to keep someone quiet? If so, they are going to need a whole lot more of it. Such a strange case. Is it me or are they getting more and more bizarre?
@ Anonymous 4:51 PM
I think more and more the families in most cases whether involved or not are much more aware of sites such as this and WS etc. Some may even be participants of sites like these before crimes occur.
I just hope LE are keeping ahead of all this.
Anon at 7.31-the beauty of statement analysis is that people will still give themselves away in the free editing process, no matter how clued up they are from websites such as this. SA can't teach people how to lie, or to lie more effectively, even if they think it can. Peter has written about it, and not so long ago.
Tanisha has removed from her Facebook the following (one of her two posts) about the little boy found in a Motel 6 in California. I should think the 'better picture' of the boy was the second of Maria Red Rum's photos, which wasn't on her own Facebook - I think she or her boyfriend posted it to one of the group pages when someone asked if she had any more pictures. I think he said there were only the two photos. Either that or the found second picture was that posted by the man who said he was DeOrr's uncle. The boy in that picture looked possibly a little older than the Motel boy, IMO -but it's difficult to tell. Interesting if Tanisha no longer wants, or feels able, to clear up how the family knows the little boy is not baby DeOrr. This since grandpa Kunz claimed in People.com that it is DeOrr - 'it's really him' and that his whole family agrees with him, which would include Tanisha and DeOrr, though she leaves the other post which also says it is not DeOrr. The removed post:
16 September 19.12
I would like to clear up how our family knows the little boy found at a motel 6 in California is not my nephew baby DeOrr. DeOrr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell were called last night by our local detective working on the to look at a better picture of the boy found. They were able to confirm that in fact it is not baby DeOrr. As much as we truly hoped it was, it's just not him. �� as for the boy found we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone... We want to personally thank everyone for sharing our posts and keeping us aware of what's going on! Please continue to share baby DeOrrs face he is still missing ��
I am elated that Kellen's garbage has been removed from the internet. I don't think I have ever come across a more egomaniacal, narcissistic attention wh*re in my entire life. His backward speech analyses are a joke, he made an utter fool of himself numerous times but especially when he "analyzed" voices coming from a movie on a television, thinking that it was DeOrr Sr., that was hilarious. Yet he continues his ridiculous crusade, not in the interest of finding justice for little DeOrr, but rather to seek attention and feed his enormous ego. ANYONE who takes him even the slightest bit seriously or supports him in any way is a complete moron.
Juliet,
That is odd how Tanisha (baby DeOrr's aunt am I understanding that right?) writes
"we have spoke to a family member of his and sadly this is has happened to him before.... CPS is investigating his parents... I feel confident they will make his life better from here on out. He is an innocent 3 year old boy that does not need to be walking the streets alone..."
1) Is this the only way they checked if the boy could be DeOrr is to ask DeOrr's family "is this DeOrr?" by showing them a picture.
2) What Tanisha wrote seems overly invested in making people drop the subject of whether the picture is DeOrr and to instead focus on the California boy's sad life. Which,sadly, pales in comparison to her nephew's situation where the odds are he is dead.
This makes me think more strongly that there is something suspect about the picture. That maybe they somehow put it out there? Was it actually a picture of Dad when he was younger?
Her words do not reassure me.
Oh...with backwards speech guy, it just flies in the face of logic that words played backward would have any meaning.
So insanely strange that he is a comedy hypnotist who has gravitated towards this case to backwards speech analyze.
Does anyone know what time Trina arrived at the campsite (crime scene)? I thought it was 4.48 pm but I don't know where I read it.
It takes 1 hour and 50 minutes from Idaho falls if there is no traffic. (I'll take a guess and say there WAS traffic being Friday afternoon) and a further 40 minutes from Leadore to Timber Creek campground. So 2 and a half hours total.
The 911 call was at 2.28pm. If Trina was called immediately AFTER the 911 call and did not stop to pack any clothes, make any phone calls, emails, eat or go to the toilet, AND there was no traffic, AND she did not stop for petrol, she would have arrive at the campground no earlier than 5.00pm
I think Jessica called Trina before she called 911.
On several occasions during the 15 minute interview DK corrected himself from past to present tense.
He says of Search and Rescue: "They were amazing" then corrects it to "they are amazing and they continue to be".
Then he says "there was not a trace of my son found" to which he adds, unnecessarily, "there still isn't".
Lastly, (- and the correction from past to present tense that sounded the weirdest to me-) "there was not a stone left unturned...there still isn't."
What do you make of these past tense corrections to present tense? Does it sound contrived?
Maria Red Rum removed the photos of the Motel baby from her Facebook, which had hundreds of comments attached to it, including from DeOrr's family, and from the guy claiming it was his 'Nephew' (strange way to put it, but it sounded as though he did not regard the child as family, questioning if he was really his half-brother's biological child) - it's all gone, though there are many comments and some reposting of the comments which were on her photos appearing on the news story, which, a few days ago she posted on her page. She hasn't posted on her page since, or responded to questions on that story for days. She did mention that she hadn't been able to check if the diaper was still in the office trash can due to being off work due to surgery. She said later that she checked and was told the diaper had gone to the dumpster, so she would check out the dumpster. No update, so perhaps she is in hospital or recuperating.
Too much negativity perhaps - personally, I would not have deleted the photos/comments, as she found the boy, and it's of ongoing interest to so many people.
Angelica - I found a photo of one of the rooms in the Stanton Motel 6 - it shows they do have the old push button type phones common to motels/hotels.
http://assets.hospitalityonline.com/photos/employers/252858/335176_l.jpg
What I was looking for, however, was a photo of the entrance - automatic doors, or push - if a baby apparently wandered in off the street, how did he get in? He would likely not be able to open a heavy door by himself unless it was the type which open at virtually a touch, or operate by sensor - I can't tell, though, not being too up on doors. :-/
A bit curious as to why she deleted, as most of those commenting praised her for helping the little boy - she said she just did what any mother would do in that situation. What I find a bit questionable is why she posted the little boy's pictures on her Facebook - as a mother in that situation, I would have called 911, then cleaned him up while I waited for them. Putting him on Facebook would not even have occurred to me, i would be too busy trying to communicate with him, find out who he might be and where he might have come from. Why think of Facebook? Still, she did - it must have seemed the right thing to do to her- and different generation, maybe it seemed the right thing to do.
I got to thinking of 'someone will come forward wondering where this child has come from' - coincidence, along with it coinciding with the announcement of the reward. My imagination works overtime, but the little boy looks so like DeOrr.
Yes, it appears they have only gone on the photos in concluding it was not DeOrr. This is strange, as at first they were claiming it looked just like him, it Hadn't been confirmed it wasn't him, they didn't know - after a chat with the PI, and some contact with Maria Red Rum by Tanisha, and with the boy's family (presumably the guy on FB claiming it was definitely his nephew, whom he had hardly seen) they said it had been confirmed that it was not DeOrr. I think it's odd that they could not immediately say from the photos, either way if they thought it was him, or not. I'm sure they would know. Now grandpa Kunz is claiming it really is him, and that his whole family agree with him, which has to include his son and daughter, DeOrr and Tanisha. Curiouser and curiouser.
Anon at 11.52 - it sounds as if he is aware that speaking in the past tense is problematic in the case of a missing child - so even though the main search, including the helicopters is over, he is trying to keep everything he says in the present tense. It could be due to his anxiety to communicate that the search is not over, even though he knows it has been scaled back and the direction has changed (from search to also suspected crime scene). I think he is too aware of keeping things on the present tense.
'Bring him home safely, where he belongs' - Jessica. Does Jessica think/know, at that point (first interview) that someone she knows has taken her baby? Who, except someone who knew where they lived, could 'bring him home'?
Well, she's staying at Timber Creek, and they live in Idaho Falls - where they live has not been mentioned during the interview, so how could she be thinking a random abductor could 'bring him home'?
Thanks Juliet, (12.36 am) that's what I thought too. He seems to be aware that speaking in past tense could be an issue, so he self edits, when there is no need.
Look peeps; these two lied from the beginning. For beginners, they did NOT arrive at the campground just minutes before little DeOrr supposedly went 'missing on a Friday morning; it was subsequently revealed that they arrived on Thursday evening, the night before! God knows what these two did in between these times AND up until they FINALLY decided to call 911. Everything they did during those hours, from the time daddy DeOrr left the store with the filthy and hysterically screaming baby, until the next day was planned and carried out by the TWO of them. Period.
You can just about rule out everything else they have said as a LIE or some other concoction of deception they have cooked up to protect themselves. Cell phone charger needed replacing; became a big deal? OH? That's crazy shyt. Common sense dictates that battery operated chargers plugged into the cigarette lighter in the automobile WORKS. Why didn't they have one OR did they, and pitched it, looking for excuses why Jessica couldn't "use" her phone? We will never know the real truth of anything they have said and wouldn't even know that the baby had ever came with them had the clerk in the store not DESCRIBED him and daddy DeOrr, which he could NOT deny.
I could go on and on shooting down everyone of their lame brained guilty comments but why bother? It ALL adds up to these two KILLING and disposing of the baby; one as guilty as the other. And it was no damned accident either. There is never a 'need' to hid an accident, even if/when it is drug or alcohol related; and you DON'T physically BEAT/abuse your child to death "by accident". It is DELIBERATE.
It isn't even necessary to try to find a conspiracy of these four campers in cahoots, plus granny, which comes to no avail; these TWO are the culprits and know exactly where the child was dumped; at the very least baby daddy DeOrr knows and mama Jessica KNOWS as well even if she wasn't present at the time. SHE KNOWS PLENTY. The others may know more too by now but these TWO are the co-conspirators and the murderers.
IMO, these two killed that baby and disposed on him either that Thursday evening or early that Friday morning. NOW THAT'S the way it shakes out; there really isn't any other logical explanation that even makes since. ABB
Anxiously awaiting the FBI report.
Longest 6 to 8 weeks ever.
ABB- I hear your frustration. Babies always deserve actual parents who are mature enough to know that a praent(s)' wants and needs come second.
Bethany-I am with you 100%...waiting on that FBI report here too. Trusting that all the i's are dotted, the t's are crossed, and we're just waiting for the ink to dry.
To Whoever Did Whatever That Little DeOrr is "Missing"- The truth will hunt you down and find you out...Don't kid yourself. Just ask Baby Doe's Mom or the rash of recent perpetrators caught in the last 4 months (some with 30 & 40 yr old crimes). The countdown starts the second you offend. Your life is ticking away. Any time you have left here is just your last chance to come clean before you face your Maker. You should take it, there are no second chances in Hell. There's only one Judge- no jurors to sway, no Defense Attorney, no plea bargains, no Alford Pleas, and no 5th Amendment there.
*parent*
Tired people should just not type. :x
Alas, the FBI report may never be revealed to the public.
Cracker Barrel is a great place to eat and shop, alas.
Other things noticed:
'we decided we were going to go a little exploring, and he was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire,'
'..I knew I was in trouble..so we decided to call search and rescue..'
They decided - discussed calling search and rescue, but had they also decided/discussed what the story would be - that they were going exploring and little DeOrr was going to be good with grandpa by the campfire?
'We didn't, we haven't left the campsite since one o' clock that afternoon..'
DeOrr has already said he went hauling away a half mile down the road to make his 911 call, and that was a good while after 1pm. (Also, that's another instance of his needlessly correcting 'didn't' from past to present tense 'haven't'. ). As it is now seems clear the six o clock sighting was Thursday, and DeOrr is talking about the Friday, he knows he is not telling the truth. I don't think anything of this story is any more reliable than that - his trying to keep things in the present tense, even when it isn't necessary, also points to the story being rehearsed, probably to him being a fan of true crime/forensics TV, and mostly, to him knowing that little DeOrr is dead.
Hmm - comments disappearing. I was sure I posted one (twice) and saw it, but it's not here. :-/
Even if the report is not released won't there be some indication as to what might be in it? Here, if they suspect someone strongly but don't have enough evidence, it's a case of 'whilst there is not sufficient evidence for a prosecution we will not be looking for any other suspects in relation to this crime' - pretty damning.
Juliet,
I think if the FBI spots behavioral signs in one or both, they will be calling them in for more questioning.
I bet the FBI will be giving their take on whether the parents' story is believable, but it already seems like the sheriff didn't believe them.
Bethany
Yes and if we are privy, It may be a a shocker.
I wonder if the FBI report is in already - it's all gone very quiet. The non-family gofundme search page was apparently cancelled at the request of LE - and whether or not the proposed search would go ahead was dependent on the FBI report. All the donations have already been refunded, the total raised now stands at nil, and it was over $2000. So, could be the report is in.
Angelica, if they call them back in, I hope the persons of interest also find Peter there waiting to interview them. That seems unlikely, as the DeOrr blogs are all still here - but half an hour with grandpa would be helpful, no doubt. :) Peter's been quiet these last few days.
The sheriff knows they lied to him, that seems obvious from the interview, but there were obviously other signals, too, that not all was as they tried to make it appear.
Oakley, I agree - it's likely to be a shocker.
Bethany - you're not alone there - I can't do anything for obsessing over this case. It seems the same for many others, too - there just has to be a resolution, and sooner rather than later. We are impatient, but some cases take years, decades to come to a resolution, and it is not three months since little DeOrr 'just disappeared'.
It makes me very sad to think that little DeOrr is dead and thrown out like so much garbage, or disposed of where? ABB
Anon @ 11.32 - you read correctlyTrina's own words posted on Local News 8 Facebook, which she later deleted:
Trina Bates Clegg I was not there until about 448 pm Friday afternoon after I heard
--
I like how she says 'about' and then gives an exact time. :)
Juliet you are right.
Half an hour with grandpa would be wonderful.
The lack of information from him and Isaac is concerning.
And about the report.
I just feel like we aren't going to learn anything for a really long time. That is just what my gut feeling is.
So frustrating.
If they do, Oakley is right. It will be a shocker I am sure. Ugh.
And if it wasn't in, like you said, why did they cancel the search when they had LE's blessing?
They refunded the money, which means now they aren't going to wait for the report to come out. There's no need. Something has to be known to make a call like that, bc whoever was in charge seemed set in making it happen. If they were going to be able to, they wouldn't have given it back. They would have waited, right??
Here's the problem with cases like DeOrr's...you get a lot of wonderful people who truly just want to help, and then you get people who want to be involved for their own personal agenda. Kellen is the perfect example. But he's not the only one in this case. I'm not so sure that the motives of the person who organized the "private search" weren't self-serving. From what I understand, she was very demanding when dealing with people associated with the case, insisting on being given information and wanting to be an "insider". I think she jumped at the opportunity to take over the private search, thinking that this would give her an "in" with LE and people associated with the case. There clearly were issues with how the fund was being handled, I started to suspect that she knew that the search was never going to happen but delayed canceling in order to take advantage of the opportunity that her role as coordinator gave her in order to seek information about the case. For herself. I have no proof, just my observations so make of it what you will.
This case could easily go unsolved. Look at the Ayla Reynold's case where LE came right out and said that an abduction "couldn't pass the straight face test", and yet the case has gone cold, much less it was not in a vast wilderness setting.
I have a gut feeling something about this case is going to unravel soon though. Maybe it is Dad DeOrr's "pride" that I perceive in the searcher's and their "night vision" gear finding "not a trace" of baby DeOrr: pride usually cometh before the fall. Hopefully Dad DeOrr will get a little too cocky and give something of his "plan" away.
Also, Grandma seems to be getting a little unstable if she is trying to point fingers maybe because she has guilty knowledge. Just my opinion. I sure as hell hope something about it unravels, nothing worse than cases going cold, especially when years pass like in Ayla's case, it pretty much comes to seem like only a miracle would solve it.
This case I have a gut feeling something may unravel.
Bethany - I'd guess the organiser knows the Sheriff will not be anticipating any change in his request before mid-October, or she'd hold the funds and possibility of a search open for longer. The organiser is from an LE family and maybe knows more than she is at liberty to share. The report may well be in, as the search going ahead was, apparently, contingent to the report (presumably to what was indicated in it). No idea, I may be adding two and two together and making five.
---
'This search has been cancelled due to circumstances beyond our control and all donations will be refunded. While it's disappointing we are trusting there is a good reason for LE requesting no outside searches at this time. Our prayers continue to be for Deorr Kunz Jr to be found.'
---
'Money is needed to help cover expenses to launch a private search for Deorr Kunz Jr. Nobody has asked to be paid for their services and nobody is profiting from this fundraiser. Funds will be used to help offset actual costs to SAR volunteers such as housing and food as well as pay for materials needed to manage a large volunteer search effort, etc. If the search does not happen all funds will be refunded to donors. If all funds are not used any remaining funds will be donated to a non-profit SAR or childrens organization like Klaas Kids Foundation.
I am not a family member, family friend or affiliated with the family in any way. Neither am I affiliated with the previous volunteer search attempt that was recently cancelled. I'm from Idaho and have lived here for many years. I'm from a LE family. My interest in this case is purely a desire to search for this child. Snow comes to the mountains around Leadore mid-October so the window of opportunity to do anymore searching is closing fast.
I am in communication with the Lemhi County Sheriff's office and have received Sheriff Bowerman's permission to search.'
ABB - DeOrr mentions the reservoir a fair bit and says 'the reservoir itself' twice. I wonder about that, and a lot of people agreeing with him, a lot, that he is not on the mountain anymore. The reservoir is up the mountain, and the dogs alerted there - thrown off, though, by remains. DeOrr was concerned about something to do with the reservoir. Snake Rivwr, maybe, never to be recovered. Some known spot in the Swan Valley. Vilt said, 'Swan Lake' by accident, but I don't think there is one. Now Grandpa Kunz is going on about there not being anything concrete, but I'm not letting my imagination go there. Do you have any ideas?
Angelica - Trina is now posting links to Missing 411 - it seems she's working towards the idea that Bigfoot took him.:-/
This:
http://www.examiner.com/article/gofundme-started-for-private-search-for-missing-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr
'A GoFundme was started for a private search for Idaho toddler Deorr Kunz Jr was. The online crowd fund begun on August 31 only raised a little the first few days. But as of September 2, the "Baby Deorr Private Search Fund" is gaining steam. The GoFundMe page states it is not affiliated with the Kunz family, Mom Jessica Mitchell or dad Deorr Kunz Sr. So far it's raised over $900 of the $2,500 needed. It will pay for a search dog team to begin around early October. This endeavor has police blessing and is waiting on the FBI report.'
---
Anon at 1.33am - would you say you have reason to believe it was the organiser, rather than the Sheriff's Office, who was saying the search going ahead was waiting on the FBI report? If she's not getting inside info, she's not bothering with the search, sort of thing? I was thinking maybe the Sherrif's Office advised her to wait on the report, but maybe not so. I don't know anything about her, and her FB privacy settings are high, so not likely to, either. :)
Thank you Juliet, I thought I'd read that Trina arrived at the campground at 4.48pm but I couldn't find it anywhere. So she deleted it, huh? I'm going to repeat what I said earlier.
It takes 1 hour and 50 minutes from Idaho falls to Leadore if there is no traffic, (I'll take a guess and say there WAS traffic being Friday afternoon) and a further 40 minutes from Leadore to Timber Creek campground. So 2 and a half hours total.
The 911 call was at 2.28pm. If Trina was called immediately AFTER the 911 call and she did not stop to pack any clothes, nor make any phone calls, emails, eat or go to the toilet, AND there was no traffic, AND she did not stop for petrol, she would have arrived at the campground no earlier than 5.00pm.
Jessica must have called Trina BEFORE she called 911, not after. Therefore, DK must have known Jessica could "get a signal out" on her phone. There was no need for him to drive in search of better reception.
Missing 411 isn't about Bigfoot taking anyone.
It doesn't even talk about Bigfoot.
It is just a collection of missing children in the woods.
And other people, they have different volumes.
Embedded statement = knowledge of baby DeOrr's death?
As his father I believe, and a lot of people agree with me, a lot ...that HE IS NO LONGER
(up the mountain anymore)
To I'mAGrandma;
Wishing your father, family, and you blessings and miracles during your fathers' recovery. God is good. He is not missing, has not misplaced your father or forgotten about him or any of you, nor is he lost somewhere out there during these painful struggles. He is always at hand; all we have to do is just ask Him.
He will let you know real quick that He is right there if you (we) earnestly seek His help and trouble ourselves to come humbly into His presence; He is always watching, not playing games with those who refuse to believe Him. He is a powerful force, closer than the breath we breathe. Therein lies the only strength we have.
We may not always see the results we were asking for, but we can rest assured and be comforted in knowing that He has a bigger plan that is better than our own although we may not see it at the time. God bless. ABB
Anon at 7.23 am - it sounds as if DeOrr is saying that the baby was up the mountain - the reservoir is up the mountain at a distance considered too far for him to have been able to wander:
'Search-and-rescue crews have been scouring the bottom of Stone Reservoir after dogs picked up a scent and led them to the small lake. But the boy's grandfather believes there's no way he could have gotten there all by himself.
"If he's in the water up there he was taken up there. He cannot walk on level ground without falling down. His little, short legs they can't walk up hill, he can't walk on level ground. He would have fallen and if he would have fallen he would have been crying. He didn't get up there by himself," DeOrr Kunz said.
"They weren't up there very long when this all happened, and what they came down with is that it was 4 minutes that someone wasn't watching him," Kunz said.'
---
That sounds as if he is saying that Jessica and DeOrr went up 'there' to the reservoir, and came down with the story that there was a period of four minutes when someone wasn't watching the baby. Or by 'up there' he could mean the campsite, but I don't know where they then "came down' to with the story of the four minute timeframe. DeOrr went hauling down the road, and he had come down to get more resources (Monday interview day) but i can't find any other mention of them coming down from anywhere. If they were at the reservoir at any point, they don't mention it , or say they had taken the baby up there. All we know is that when he drove up that part of the road himself, DeOrr realised, apparently with some concern, that anything below was viewable from above.
'As his father I believe, and a lot of people agree with me, a lot ...that he is no longer up the mountain anymore'. It sounds like an attempt to persuade, as though he either doesn't want people to keep searching up there, or it's maybe an attempt to justify himself and Jessica moving to a camp lower down, once everyone had been moved off the mountain by the Sheriff after the initial search was complete - maybe an attempt to make people think it was their own choice to move down the mountain, as they knew the 'change of direction' in the search would make people believe it was now a crime scene and that they had become personae non gratae.
'There wasn't a stone left unturned, there still isn't'
- that's bit of a mind bender, but it's not a double negative, is it? It's another unnecessary self-edit into the present tense.
DK says of SAR. "They continue to be....
DK says of baby Deorr, " he is no longer..."
From the Fight for justice for Baby Deorr fb page.....
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr
September 19 at 6:01pm ·
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/07/statement-analysis-deorres-parents.html?m=1
Share
Holly Massey-Tomlinson
I have a slight rant, I have read through the comments that the statement analysis people have made. They have made some mean comments about Kellen Marson and his reverse speech theory. Reverse speech is his passion and he will post it publicly. I never heard of it until this case with DeOrr.
Statement analysis is Peter’s passion and he has a blog, although he has not come out publicly stating he feels the parents murdered their child. He still will analyze every interview just as Kellen Marson does. He breaks the sentences down looks for deception and what not.
I am so sick and tired of people saying negative things about Kellen Marson because of his theory and calling the parents out because he will use an uncommon approach to “dissect” their statements that people think is a fraud. I do believe he said some things in chat that should not have been said nor suggested but he is also human. He really wants to find a missing toddler that he feels the parents murdered.
I feel the reaction that Kellen is giving people is quite common, who in their right mind would sit back and let other people take a “swing” at them without a reaction back. I think the screen shots and these pages that are popping up to “prove” Kellen is a fraud is ridiculous and downright childish. If you did not approve of what he is doing or saying leave his page. I don't ever recall having a “gun” put to my head to believe in what he is saying and to stay on his page. I have never seen him be mean to anyone unless they have been mean to them.
Let’s all grow up and be the adults that we are supposed to be. If you don’t like what you see then leave and remember the GOLDEN RULE: DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. In this case: SAY UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM SAY UNTO YOU.
Rant over. I hope and pray DeOrr is found and justice is served where it is needed.
Edited · 5More · Sep 19 at 10:01pm
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr
Kellen Marson is a very wise and knowledgeable man. He has done so much for the the community searching for Deorr Jr. Spent countless hours studying the behaviors and speech of the parents. Has continued the fight for Deorr Jr even when some people have said the most terrible things to him as if he was on trial. I look up to Kellen as do many people do.
3More · Sep 19 at 10:02pm
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr
The link above is a statement analysts about the family. It's not about Kellen. Confused some.
See all 9 replies
They are not happy with your comments SA readers!!
Still talking about Kellen....
Where the heck is he anyway?
Anon 5:37,
You wrote
"Jessica must have called Trina BEFORE she called 911, not after. Therefore, DK must have known Jessica could "get a signal out" on her phone. There was no need for him to drive in search of better reception."
Your breakdown of the timing conundrum that you summarized in quote above is really good.
Do we even know Dad DeOrr's actual location at the time? Meaning, could he have been 1 mile away, 2 miles away, 3 miles away when he called 911? Obviously, him being in a separate location is carries far more importance than just wanting to feel "blessed" to achieve an uninterrupted 911 call.
Since Jessica had good reception, is it possible he was actually miles away and only getting "one bar" showing on his phone in that location more distant from Jessica?
I think he disposed of the body.
Grandma similarly, because of the timing problem that you broke down, as you said COULD NOT HAVE BEEN in the location she claims she was (at home) when Jessica called her.
Was she with Dad DeOrr?
Should we start looking at her words about "throwing away" DeOrr's diaper more seriously and consider whether it was leakage of some kind?
Could she have been with Dad DeOrr and helped throw items of DeOrr's away, in trash cans in random locations where they would never be found?
She says she threw his diaper away in the "church's garbage" (meaning the garbage of the church searchers). I think it is worth considering whether she was with Dad DeOrr (driving separate vehicle at points) and whether she disposed of any of his clothes/items in an actual trash can or trash can(s) which were public trash cans or dumpsters.
When I have time later, I am going to rewatch the video with grandma talking just to see if I can pick up anything in her speech that could connect with this concept.
How to you get to reverse speech guy's page incidentally? Just to have a look?
Judas Priest! Some, if not all, of you scare me. A prime example:
Angelica said...
This case could easily go unsolved. Look at the Ayla Reynold's case where LE came right out and said that an abduction "couldn't pass the straight face test", and yet the case has gone cold, much less it was not in a vast wilderness setting.
I have a gut feeling something about this case is going to unravel soon though. Maybe it is Dad DeOrr's "pride" that I perceive in the searcher's and their "night vision" gear finding "not a trace" of baby DeOrr: pride usually cometh before the fall. Hopefully Dad DeOrr will get a little too cocky and give something of his "plan" away.
Also, Grandma seems to be getting a little unstable if she is trying to point fingers maybe because she has guilty knowledge. Just my opinion. I sure as hell hope something about it unravels, nothing worse than cases going cold, especially when years pass like in Ayla's case, it pretty much comes to seem like only a miracle would solve it.
This case I have a gut feeling something may unravel.
September 23, 2015 at 1:45 AM
What's wrong with what Angelica wrote?
Sheesh! Not a dang thing wrong with Angelicas' post!!! So there. ABB
Same ABB haha I don't get it
Somebody just trying to stir up some shyt, Anon @ 7:59. Likely jealous. Over nothing. Bums me out. Especially when it's done towards me when I've never done anything but try in every way to be honest and ethical; maybe sometimes a little outspoken, but certainly not deserving of being belittled and falsely accused. I tell ya, it's enough to destroy your self-esteem, my most valuable asset.
I've been reading and posting here for years and when these insulting posts show up defaming me it lets me know that whoever is making them has not learned much about statement analysis; otherwise, this person would recognize that I am a woman of integrity, good moral character, honest and of high self esteem. Not perfect no, but certainly not a deceitful person. Yet I get slammed and falsely accused. Go figure. ABB
FoolsFeedOnFolly; excellent post yesterday at 4:44. I couldn't have said it better; not even as well. Great words of wisdom. God bless. ABB
Food for thought here...
Did anyone else find it strange that Jessica's dad was present in their latest interview? Why would he be there? He wasn't camping at the Timber Creek Campground-he was still incarcerated. He doesn't seem to be there for moral support, as he's not comforting Jessica in any way, nor encouraging her to speak. Why is he there?
Equally strange is that Grandpa and Isaac are conspicuously absent...the two men who actually were there. Why? If Grandpa is well enough to drive an SUV, pulling a camper and go camping at Timber Creek, it stands to reason that he should be well enough to simply sit at the end of a couch. Since this was a family interview, is Grandpa no longer part of the family? Are they so afraid that someone will actually ask him a question? Or more afraid of what he might say?
Isaac has no health/aging issues to excuse him, so why was he not included. I seriously doubt if it's solely because he "isn't family", considering he was a close enough friends with Grandpa to go camping on this family trip.
So, why was Jessica's dad there? Is his recent incarceration related to Jessica's statement in their initial interview, "Who would do this to us?"? Why was he incarcerated? Does he have enemies? The kind of enemies who might threaten his family?
If this was an abduction, it was very well planned and well executed, judging by the lack of evidence cited repeatedly by Sheriff Bowman. Statistically speaking, an abductor would have had to either be pretty highly skilled or highly lucky- a "four minute"/"10 minute" window of opportunity, with 4 adults well within 10-150 yards, where "you could everything", only one road in and one road out, no engine noise whatsoever, no tracks (human or vehicular-2 or 4 wheel), and no DNA. Both options are highly improbable and Sheriff Bowman knows it as well.
I'm waiting impatiently here on the FBI report and hoping it will be made public.
Fight for Justice for baby Deorr
Kellen Marson is a very wise and knowledgeable man. He has done so much for the the community searching for Deorr Jr. Spent countless hours studying the behaviors and speech of the parents. Has continued the fight for Deorr Jr even when some people have said the most terrible things to him as if he was on trial. I look up to Kellen as do many people do.
3More · Sep 19 at 10:02pm
he needs to stop hypnotizing the week minded or are you just looking for that 'wise and knowledgeable" orgasm?
laughing profusely@right now
I'm adding my vote with many others here...
I don't like DeOrr's distancing language in their last interview here http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/deorr-kunz-family-remains-hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/:
1. "You hope..." - Given that they're seated together for this family interview (and he's clutching Jessica's arm and clasping her hand), I would expect to hear "We hope..." and possibly move into "I" statements when just DeOrr is speaking.
2. "You hope for him to come home.."- How can a toddling two-year old "come home"? Does DeOrr think he's going to just open the door one day and walk in? The expected is "We hope that someone will bring our son/DeOrr home or drop him off at a store, Church, Hospital, public place, etc.
3. "You hope to find him..."- The expected is "We hope to find our son/DeOrr/him...". Actually, now that I think about it, the understood should be that a parent hopes to find their missing child, so why is he even saying this? Why does he need to say that?
4. "You also hope to have closure..."-EEK! I don't hope to have closure-I want DeOrr and I'm not even related! It's not even been 3 months, this child has been "kidnapped", and he/they are entertaining "hope for closure"??? >:0 You have got to be kidding! So much for, "Daddy will find you!" (DeOrr) and "We'll keep looking for you until we find you." (Jessica)
5. "You go crazy and you don't know what to do next."- In 15 seconds, DeOrr uses the term "You" (as in other people, not them) 6 times. This is their son, right? They do know this boy, right?
6. "I hope that he's o.k., and in my mind..." - DeOrr hopes he's o.k.? Just o.k.? How about alive? How about unharmed? How could a kidnapped 2yr possibly be o.k. without his Mommy & Daddy and the items that comfort him when he's tired/sick/afraid? How can DeOrr be o.k. with a stranger? Any normal 2yr old would be seriously hysterical at best (stranger anxiety). Clueless Parent Alert!
Now Add Trina's
1. "We feel he was abducted..."- It's interesting that she uses "we", while DeOrr favored "You". How exactly does one "feel" someone abducted?
2. "Why do we continue to search up there?"- They're not continuing to search up there. DeOrr, "and a lot of people, believe he is no longer up there"- remember? It's hard to continue to search up on the mountain when your family's on SM attacking posters, cussing them, and telling them to mind their own business when they question your account.
3. "It was the last place we've seen that baby."- "We" is collective and working together, yet neither she nor Jessica's Dad was there. "That baby" is unexpected as DeOrr has no title of ownership(their baby, their son, DeOrr, her grandbaby, their grandchild,[one of their nicknames for DeOrr], etc.). There is no emotional attachment to little DeOrr by any speaking grown-up, yet DeOrr and Trina appear "emotional" and Jessica appears too overcome by emotion to actually participate.
4. "We would just do anything for someone to walk up and just hand us that little boy"- Where to start here? We "would" is troubling because it's can be both fantastical or conditional. I would love for someone to give me a million dollars. ;) Or I would love to have a dog, but my spouse is allergic to dog hair. Or I would be a better golfer, if I had more time to play.
5. Do they really think someone is going to walk up and just hand them Deorr? What are the odds of THAT happening? Walk up? Her phrasing is really passive there.
6. "...that little boy- Which little boy are you talking about? That little boy(the one distant from you).
7. "We have become silent because we don't want them focused on us."- Silent? She's kidding, right? Not exactly, when your family's on multiple SM sites and news outlet comment pages carrying on like stereotypical "rednecks". Who is the "them" that they don't want focused on the family? LE? The FBI?
8. "We want them focused on this baby."- Did she actually, finally take possession of Deorr? Why the change in language- "that" is now "this"? What's the context? That "they" are focusing on the family. Note the other change in language here: Deorr just suddenly became a "baby" where he was a "boy".
9. [Talking about Jessica needs her son, DeOrr needs his son to raise] "And us,as a family, we just, we need that little boy."- Echoes of Daddy DeOrr here, with "as a family". Judging by DeOrr's need to keep stating that in their initial interview, I think DeOrr and Jessica were having serious issues. Instead of serving to tell/show the public how close/united the family is, Trina actually reinforces how fragile and split the family is as she verbally separates Jessica and DeOrr and attributes them with different needs. Notice DeOrr's alone is raising his son. This seems to allude to prior knowledge of a failing relationship; in which event Jessica would likely be denied custody, factoring in her custodial issues with her other two children and her recent financial judgement.
*Was the camping trip a last ditch effort to save a relationship?*
*Was the "kidnapping" designed by one party or a close family member to bring them closer together?*
There is just such a lack of emotion, emotional attachment, urgency,and mental anguish that go along with having a missing child in this case. IMO
Foolsfeedonfolly @ 8,36 it was the PI who said that Isaac lawyered up early on, in which case he wouldn't take part in an interview; it would also help explain his mumbled reluctance to engage on the doorstep attempt to interview him which was made by Nate Eaton. There was also the claim made on SM that Vilt, PI, had told someone that Trina was not happy to hear that he had gone out to find Isaac and Grandpa fishing, and had spoken to grandpa - apparently he should only speak to grandpa through Trina, which has to ring alarm bells, if true. In Vilt's radio interview he said he had spoken to both Grandpa and Isaac, I think the previous afternoon, and on the basis of that seemed satisfied enough to decide they were not involved. This might bear out that the SM claim was true, at least in part (the bit about Isaac supposedly intending to shoot grandpa would seem a bit far fetched, though Vilt had supposedly said he'd received a tip to that effect). Maybe grandpa has lawyered up, too? Vilt did not say so, yet he was willing to say so of Isaac. It seems very likely, by the way he was disregarded as being too physically and mentally frail early on, that someone doesn't want grandpa saying anything. Still, he has been interviewed and taken a polygraph since, and is a person of interest, so it must have been decided at some point that he is not as incapable as first impressions suggested.
I found these comments on Jerry Jay Mitchell (all made here under 'Part Two of DeOrre's Parents Interview' - unfortunately there are no accompanying links, so none of this is verified ):
Anonymous said...
wow, this Jerry Jay Mitchell has quite the record - including injury of a child
July 23, 2015 at 6:02 PM
Anonymous said...
JJM's record is pretty extensive: numerous DUI's and drug charges, battery and indecent exposure (although those charges were dismissed). He is currently incarcerated though so hopefully he isn't involved.
July 23, 2015 at 6:17 PM
Sus said...
Jerry jay Mitchell. Felony drugs. Petty stuff before that.
July 23, 2015 at 6:44 PM
Sus said...
I brought up Jessica's father as a possible look into her mindset that day. I know from his Facebook that he wasn't allowed to see his daughters and grandchildren. She worried about losing custody if she was around him. I know from the Facebook of the father of her two older children, he didn't trust her with the children.
So we have a mother who has been accused of being unfit to care for two older siblings. Her two year old has an accident at a campsite. Most call 911 right away. Would this mother...and father?
July 23, 2015 at 8:31 PM
"Suck on that Mr. Hyatt!"
OMG I AM DYING RIGHT NOW.
Newest on the Fight for justice for baby deorr fb page,
First they post Peter's statement analysis on the parents,
Then they bash Peter bc basically Peter is jealous of Kellen Marsons work, lol.
And then finally they want his help if it will find baby deorr.
Kara Rowbury or whoever has just as many screws loose as Kellen.
I thought the page was about baby deorr, not Peter Hyatt???
Just shows you who is running things over there. Wow!!
Kara Rowbury
Statement analysis is Peter hyatt. He is very biased of reverse speach and psychics or anything spiritual. So him and his followers degrade kellen and his beliefs as well as psychics and others. They basically have the same view as kellen and people who believe the parents are guilty. Peter just believes his work is better and more relevant. So he tries to stop anyone that believes differently then him. Degrading someones work is immature. Especially people who are trying to find baby deorr and the truth be known. Basically it's hypocrisy at it's finest. Suck on that one Mr hyatt
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Kara Rowbury
They also call kellens followers minions or trolls. They bash on me constantly that I'm the drama queen yet I have proof of the allegations of the family harrasing me in leadore and at my place of employment. It makes no sense why come at kellens followers unless he's a threat to you and your career!?? Hmmm good question right? His followers don't even know where the snake river is lmfao. There not from here. So to degrade me for what looking for baby deorr? Seems like I've done a hell of a lot more then they have sitting on there asses on the computer. Oh wait and kellen spent his own money to come search. Doesn't matter what you do in there eyes just that they can't and won't believe in anything but Peter. I would call that being minions. I believe in kellen whole heartedly. I actually think what Peter does is pretty awesome as well. But I don't go around talking shit on him well until now. Lmfao. Truth be known bring in the psychics, bring in Kellen Marson , bring in the FBI, bring in the pi, bring in community members who have searched,bring in the family's friends, shit bring in Peter. The more the better. Anyone with anything helps to find a missing baby.
1More ·
Wonder what her stage name is over here.
Hahaha
*plays Hypnotize by Notorious BIG in the background*
Hahaha
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