Monday, September 14, 2015

Statement Analysis and Child Abuse: DeOrr Kunz Photos

Although I am not a participant in "internet sleuthing forums" (under various names), I do know some police who, anonymously, join, read and  learn.  I also receive copy/paste info or commentary, from time to time, on a case that has caught the public's attention.  Why might an investigator anonymously join a forum of those who are not formally trained, (nor paid) to investigate?

This is because at any given time, a person of intelligence and insight might post something useful to an investigation.  Those who love learning, learn.

Therefore,  when insults are tossed at "web detectives", "web sleuths" or "internet investigators", it is often by one who wants to dismiss an opinion because of disagreement.  Rather than answer the assertion, the forum, itself, is condemned.  Guilty parties, defense attorneys, and those with a particularly inordinate attachments to a case may provoke the harshest condemnations.

Within such forums, there is another element which can hinder the flow of knowledge:  those desperate for "higher moral ground" positions than others, which is readily evidenced in the sacrifice of truth for "appearance sake."

No matter, there are often enough honest, truth seeking, intelligent people who come at cases with many viewpoints, angles and projected views.  Those with strong emotional intelligence often cite their own projection; something I find not only fascinating, but admirable.

The case of missing toddler, DeOrr Kunz has puzzled many.

I have not posted an analysis conclusion that most cases have, and readers have been, in large, generous to me in this matter.

What is it about this case that I have not posted a strong conclusions?

Perhaps another question should accompany this:

Why haven't I given a strong opinion on what happened to little DeOrr?

Before answering these two questions, let's look at the position of child abuse and photographs, which is a topic recently raised.  Some have said that the happy photos of DeOrr prove he was not abused or unwanted.

1.  Photos are not, by themselves, conclusive.

There are children who are subject to abuse, but are not "unwanted" children, at the same time, even while there are some children who may not suffer physical abuse, but are, in deed, unwanted and this is a powerful form of emotional abuse that can take its form in chronic neglect, or disinterest.

The photo is not always a reliable indicator either way.  The best insight into a child's life is the words of the parents, in particular, how they relate to the child.

I often say, "this parent likes her child", which raises a few eyebrows.  I then explain that most all parents "love" their children, but it is those that "delight in them", or quite simply, "enjoy spending time" with their children who do so much better at parenting.  What we like, we repeat.

For one, "the terrible twos" is something to "get through", while to another, it is a time of heightened vigilance, but also heightened humor and exciting exploration time.

Photos are not always definitive.

This means that, at any time, a child can appear happy in a photo which should not lead someone to conclude that he was a wanted or well cared for child.  Did you ever notice the instinctive reaction of Jews on their way to death smiling for the camera?

I cringed whenever a defense attorney introduced photos at a child abuse trial as if a single moment in time could tell a story.

In the same sense, a photograph of an injury could be a result of child abuse, or it could be the result of an accident, rough play, sports, etc.

I once had a case where a boyfriend had been accused of beating a toddler to the point of marks on his face.

Having had too many cases like this, I had to remind myself to remain open and let the one thing above all else that I trust in, to guide me:  the language.

When asking a subject "What happened?" while looking at the marks on a baby's face, the subject, in this case, a young boyfriend of the baby's mother, had, perhaps, less than average intelligence.  Let's guesstimate that he had a vocabulary of 20,000 words, under the scoped average of 25,000 held by most.

In less than a microsecond of time, as I asked this question without even introducing myself or saying anything else to him, his brain told his mouth what to say by:

*choosing what information to reveal to me;
*choosing what words to best convey this information to me;
*choosing what verb tenses and pronouns to use in speaking to me;
*choosing where to place each word, in position to complete sentences

I stared at him as he spoke, noting that this less than average intelligence young male did so without interruption of even the slightest.

He had sat the baby up, and went into the kitchen, and heard a noise, and found the baby on his side, screaming.  He picked the baby up and the baby eventually stopped crying.

"On the fly" I noted to myself that his sentences were short, they used the appropriate past tense commitment with the pronoun "I" and the sentences were without noticeable sensitivity indicators.  I then continued the interview, beginning with open ended questions only, moving on to questions about the specific language he used and then onto more direct questions.

I took careful notes and "knew", from analysis training, that what I was told was, statistically, "reliable."

I also found some things about the young male I did not like.  I remained aware of this and knew that the recorded interview would have to be analyzed to make sure my "on the fly" work matched the written statement from the transcript.

I took photos of his marked up face.

I then presented my information to my superiors who concluded "physical child abuse" by the photos, as they (two) dismissed my analysis that the subject was reliable in his account of what happened.  The things I did not like about him, including substance abuse, work ethic, and a few other things, were relevant to the child's life, true, but this investigation was to learn:

did he inflict injury upon the child?

This is what I was charged with learning.

My superiors were certain that this was to be both civil and criminal in scope, and wanted procedural fulfillment for the removal of the child, should the mother "fail to protect" the child from the "abusive" boyfriend.

The photos were sent to an expert who concluded that the injuries "somewhat appear inflicted" and that the explanation of how it happened was "suspect" at best.  He did not feel strong in his conclusion, but the marking pattern was strange.  He could not conclusively say one way or another.  This was not his norm, as I had found him to that point, to have accuracy.  I felt somewhat emboldened by his refusal to commit, one way or another.  His testimony was something I had come to respect in keeping children safe.

I had a powerful conflict between what I know and understand to be the most reliable form of investigation, versus being instructed on what to do.  My analysis said, "The subject did not directly  inflict the injuries to the face", while the photographic evidence, and peripheral issues said otherwise.

I returned to the home.

I had the subject set up the entire scenario again for me, while saying nothing about my analysis.  I also asked him if he would be willing to take a polygraph, which he was.  In it, he would be asked, "Did you cause the injury to the child's face?" of which he said, "But, yes, I did, in that I shouldn't have left the room."

I told him that the polygrapher would interview him and then, together, they would form the questions.

The pictures looked bad.

As he set up the blanket on which the child was seated, I asked him to give me the baby's bottle, pacifier and play things from that morning.

I photographed everything and asked if I could keep the items for a few days.

That night, I wrestled with knowing that in all the interviews I have done, this kid 'fits the bill' of someone who might snap and hit a child but his statements were not even close to 'neutral'; he was truthful.

I then discovered something generally outside my scope.  I am a linguistics person; I listen with trained listening to the point where I sometimes put in headphones just to shut things out.  I am not an "expert investigator" with a "photographic memory"; for me, seeing the trajectory of a body falling after a suicide will sound like something special, but is as foreign to me as is the New York Jets winning the Superbowl in 2016 is to Jet fans.

But I know language.

His language was not only truthful, it was not the language of child abuse; distancing, violent, etc.

I noticed that the toy the child fell upon was a face and the face had elevated (obnoxious) eyes, nose, mouth, eyebrows, etc.

I took out my kids' clay and molded against it.

It was a perfect match.

I then emailed photographs of the clay model, alongside the other photographs, and photographs of the ugly toy, alongside with the child's weight.

The next day I received his reply:  "it fits!"

What appeared to be damning photographs of inflicted abuse were not.  I was relieved.

This week, a frightening photograph made international headlines where it appeared that European police were assaulting a migrant, as he hovered over his wife and baby, on railroad tracks.  It looked like police brutality.

A day or two later, the "photograph" was revealed to be a stop image from a short video and small, independent media wanted to make certain the photo's context was seen, too.

In it, we see a man shove his wife and baby down to the railroad tracks and jump on them, while police try to stop him.

The agenda driven main stream media used only the photograph to further their own agenda by employing propaganda.

My point with DeOrr:

Photos of happy DeOrr may not prove he was not abused, even as a bruised DeOrr may not prove abuse.

At any given time, even the most horrific child abusers can pull out a Christmas photo of a happy child.

What gives us greater insight is the language, and how a parent relates to a child.

In the following sample I use in training, we see that a child who is abused can have both, a loving status as a daughter, and the distancing, gender specific language found within abuse.

How a parent speaks of a missing child is critical in understanding.  

Recall Baby Lisa, who's mother could barely ever utter Lisa's name.  It was extreme distancing language.  She didn't like her child.

In other cases, we carefully note when, for example, she is "my daughter" and when she is "Jonbenet", or "Hailey" or any number of children who were initially reported "missing" but the language of the parents revealed a need to psychologically distance themselves from the child, in certain contexts.

Deborah Bradley was extreme, however, which revealed that Baby Lisa was not only a victim of "adult time" claimed by Bradley, that Lisa fatally interrupted while Bradley wanted to party, but showed that Lisa was, quite likely, a victim of neglect by Bradley.  This is not the norm but more akin to an unwanted child.  Bradley didn't "delight" in Lisa.

Some parents will claim "ownership" of the child while speaking of the child, in context, "safe in Heaven", where no abuse exists.

In DeOrr's case, we do not find this extreme distancing language.  This does not mean that the parents are truthful or are not responsible for his disappearance; it means that he was not a child from whom they want complete distance from.  Even guilty parents will linguistically "embrace" their child under some contexts, but then upon the "guilty context", quickly linguistically distance themselves.  The McCanns example this, as does even Haleigh Cummings father, Ronald Cummings.

Ronald Cummins was, as some parents are, abusive to Haleigh, oftentimes out of ignorance.  Raised to be slapped in the face, for him, it is his "value" and "norm."  He left her with some dangerous people and when it came to drugs and self interest, he chose himself over his daughter.  This is not to say that he didn't want her:  it was more that he could not handle being a parent, and couldn't be trusted around children while being in authority.

Baby Sabrina comes to mind, as well. Something happened to her, but it does not mean that they did not love her all other days.

In shaken baby cases, it takes only a split second of loss of self control, and the child is gone.

These are situations where something, likely unintended, took place and the guilty negligent parents go into cover up mode. It does not mean that the child was unwanted always.  I don't think Jonbenet was unwanted by her mother, but her mother was either unwilling or incapable of protecting her from John Ramsey, which may have some roots in Patsy's own upbringing.

Understanding causes does not excuse responsibility.

Caylee Anthony was an unwanted child who was, as her name suggested, nothing more than a novelty to her mother, from whom the mother loved the attention Caylee brought to her, the mother, but beyond that, "little snot face" was in the way of the mother's life style.

I have used photographic evidence to help prove physical child abuse, while I have also used photographs to clear someone as the above case shows, or the many cases where "it he can cruise, he will bruise" toddlers who loved to explore would often injure themselves in ways where innocent parents were afraid of being falsely accused.

I worked with pediatricians who were trustworthy, not only to me, but to the parents.  These professionals did not ever lightly make reports as they had to, on the fly, often make judgements on whether an injury matches the explanation.  As mandated reporters, they would say, "I make this as an obligation, but believe the explanation."

I found, overall, a good consistency in their accuracy.  Parents would urge me to call the doctor who told them that he or she was obligated to make the report.  These usually ended well as doctors often really get to know parents, including risk factors.  It is not always, but at least from my experience, quite often their instincts, like teachers, served them well.

The example, here in the form of a test, shows how a change of language can reveal the truth:

Child Abuse Analysis Test

Photographic evidence is useful and can assist in cases, but it is an element of an overall case, even as language is, as well.

An investigator in the above test "knows" that the father abused his own child, yet, even while testifying to "why" (the analysis) he will need more to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, including, perhaps, the testimony of the young girl, which is almost always, problematic to parents.

I have always warned parents of what a defense attorney may do to their child, if the child takes the stand.

The re-victimization can be powerful, and I always encouraged the parents to seek out the assistance of other professionals in gaining an opinion on whether or not the child should take the stand.  It is never an easy call.

Those that follow this case are passionate and investigators are wise to be open to the public forums where discussion takes place.

There is always a chance that someone in the family, perhaps even a parent, may, under another name, write in and attempt to influence the mindset.

As to the two questions on why I have not had a strong conclusion and why I have not offered my opinion, the next article will address these questions and ask you what you believe happened to DeOrr.



138 comments:

Anonymous said...

Peter, what you have written is absolutely true. I was both severely mentally and physically abused by my mother beginning as a toddler, yet in pictures I am almost always smiling ear to ear like I am smiling the best and widest smile for the camera I could. I have had people looking at pictures of me when I was a toddler saying "you have the widest smile I've ever seen". I actually think it was a form of overcompensation like if I smiled that wide it would mean "look at me I'm great! I'm OK!" There are a few pictures however where I appear unsmiling looking at my mother behind the camera lense with a look in my eye of fear, disappointment, and betrayal.
My little sister 2 yrs younger than me appears visibly deeply disturbed and unsmiling in almost every picture however. There was a picture recently posted of a neighborhood birthday party from the 1970s with me and my sister in it. As usual I appear smiling ear to ear like "look at me! I'm happy!" My sister seated in front of me looks profoundly disturbed to the point where a friend of mine who had seen the picture on facebook and was talking to me on the phone said, quite seriously, was you sister possessed? Anyway, this is testimony to the fact that kids sometimes put on a false smile even as toddlers for picture even though they are being abused by a parent--they know that they are supposed to smile for the camera. However, sometimes something is clearly visibly wrong emotionally and mentally with the child from the abuse as anyone can notice looking at just about any picture of my younger sister as a little kid.

Juliet said...

Thanks, Peter - this is so interesting - it makes me think I have probably put too much store on the photographs. One does have to admit that they are only moments in time, and we all like to show the most flattering photos of our children/grandchildren, which is likely to be the same with DeOrr's family. It's a pity to not be able to unsee them, and to start over again with only the words -at the same time it's the photos which have caused so many of us to take DeOrr into our hearts.

I will read this again because, as usual, there is a lot to take in. I find myself challenged and a little unnerved by some of your posts, but that goes with being paranoid. :-)

Oakley A said...

In their recently released statement didn't they show attachment by using the pronoun our? Our precious baby boy, our son.

lynda said...

Oh Peter, I think I felt my brain "crimp." So much to take in. I have never put to much stock in photos. It's like you said, people automatically smile even while being led to their deaths.

Buckley said...

What is it about this case that I have not posted a strong conclusions?

I think you have been extremely fair to the parents in this case, starting by giving them the benefit of the doubt. You have largely refrained from judging them as individuals, and in earlier, similar cases, I don't feel that has always been the case. It is hard to suspend judgement of people like Justin DiPietro, Billie Jean and Shawn, Terri. Casey Anthony... We have come to trust that they deserve our scorn for what they've done.

When we look back on this case, we may find we already have as much as in those other cases to make the same judgements about guilty knowledge about DeOrr. But I think, wisely, judgement has been suspended in a way not seen in these other cases.

I think you've done excellent work on this case, because of the lack of a definitive conclusion, not in spite of it. Thank you.

lynda said...

I have to agree with Buckley. I am looking forward to your next article Peter to see why you have not come to a definitive conclusion. In perusing previous cases, even with the most unstable of subjects (Billie Jean, Casey) you can see the tale they are trying to weave and an almost manic quality sometimes. While I think Deorr Sr. appears to have running mouth syndrome, his language is all over the place. Drops pronouns, changes pronouns, half sentences, stuttering "I', possible leakage, changes of subjects mid sentence, persuasive language, no reliable denial, "I'm in trouble", distancing, etc. It seems almost impossible to nail him down as he is not consistent in anything. At least that's what I feel based solely on language.

Anonymous said...

"Vilt tells EastIdahoNews.com that during his investigation he learned the FBI collected several items from everyone at the campsite, including an ax and pair of coveralls from Walton [the greatgrandfather]."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/kunz-family-private-investigator-receives-solid-tip-on-toddlers-disappearance/

Anonymous said...

What is about this case that I have not posted a strong conclusion?

YOu know which side of the bread your butter is on.

Of 110 occupants of the area, 70 showed up to search. Of thousands in Orlando, more than that showed up to terrorize. These people won't be turned easily.

You also won't get referrals if you go agin a retired federal marshal who has secured the country for how many years? You believe blonde-headed, blue-eyed boys are in high demand-specifically in forests and farm areas. NG believes this as well. The halo effect.

He races in HIS truck to raise his elevation to catch a signal to make a call. She raises her elevation where she is at. She was "lucky". He was "blessed".

The missing is HIS son.

Angelica said...

Peter, I think you have exercised wisdom with this case refraining on declaring a definitive pronouncement.

The more I watch the parent interview, the more I think they are telling the truth. However, I do not think this is a stranger abduction.

It may be that we have not had enough language samples from the actual guilty party or parties.

Buckley said...

I agree with Angelica in that when I watch the early interview, I want to believe the parents. When I read the transcript, I think there's enough sample to conclude guilty knowledge. Deorr's narrative about returning to find little Deorr missing is story-building. He's deceptive about the truck haul, And the detail that I can't get past: in all that talk about the search- they don't own it, they don't tell us "we/I searched".

Angelica said...

Buckley, I fully agree with you. I do think they have guilty knowledge of SOMETHING which may or may not relate to the disappearance. I wonder, and a lot of it comes from the mother's anger you can see at the father, as well as her body language where she seems to be always hiding and cradling her left arm (at around 3:35 she creates something which looks like a cast around her arm using the blanket I wonder since she is a mother if baby DeOrr had gotten injured as a mother you feel what your child feels, strong empathy so is she thinking of an injury an arm injury?) I wonder if baby DeOrr either got injured or was injured prior to the disappearance? Could the parents have gone "exploring" for 10 minutes to try to find something to help with the injury (like a branch to create a splint)? My son is in the Boy Scouts, so this comes to mind that if baby DeOrr got injured they may have gone looking for something in nature to help him with it). How that would relate to his disappearance I have no idea. But it might explain the feeling you and me get that they have guilty knowledge of something yet possibly are being truthful about not knowing how he disappeared???
(I realize this is kind of way out there, but the case is strange and complex and the language dynamics seem to be equally complex and perhaps multi-layered with guilty knowledge of something but perhaps not guilty knowledge of how he disappeared. Hmmm)

Angelica said...

I do see the story-building too in DeOrr Sr,'s language.

~mj said...

I think that the Heather Elvis case resonated with Mr. Hyatt, in that he was shocked to read Tammy so boldly degrade the victim when it turned out that she had been quite involved. (I personally believe Mr. Hyatt has far more info regarding that case than we the public do and in his info he has more reason to believe that Ms. Moorer was complicit in Heather's disappearance) that being the case, it has then impacted his response to these situations.

Something for us to remember, this is his profession. I would venture a guess that not speaking out strongly one way or the other helps him to sit back and see how others are learning from him, he is able to drink it all in and reflect on the case and most importantly he is looking for ways to learn himself. Freely handing out the answers to his observations can bury valuable conversation and expressions.

Plus there is also a high likely-hood that he has been consulted on this case and therefore cannot comment strongly one way or the other on the blog.

My 2-cents.

Sus said...

I'm going to say because there isn't enough linguistic sample for a definitive conclusion. Yes, there were some sensitive areas in Deorr Sr's first interview. But, without full context or the full background from the sheriff we don't know the cause of that sensitivity.

jen-d said...

OT: www.rt.com/usa/315229-police-bmw-woman-psych-ward

Black Woman Claims she was drugged & jailed because police didnt believe she could own a BMW.

Excerpts:

“He held onto me and then the doctor stuck me in the arm and I was on a stretcher and I woke up to them taking my clothes off, specifically my underwear,” Brock said. “Then I went back out again. When I woke up the next day, I felt like I was in a nightmare. I didn’t understand why that was happening to me.”

“I just felt like from the moment I said I owned a BMW, I was looked at as a liar,” Brock told PIX 11. “They put me in handcuffs and said they just need to put me in handcuffs to take me to my car. And I said OK, whatever it’s gonna take to get to my car.”

“Then EMS approached me. And they said we’re gonna take you to your car. And I’m like, in an ambulance? I’m going to my car in an ambulance? I was just so confused.”

John mcgowan said...

OT Update:

Personnel file for suspended Bardstown Officer shows problems on the job

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) -- Bardstown Police still refuse to disclose why Officer Nick Houck was suspended, but his personnel file indicates previous problems on the job.

We obtained more than 150 pages of records in Houck's personnel. They show Houck joined the department in 2006 and was reprimanded in 2012 for insubordination. He also got two warning reports in 2008, one for failing to call EMS to the scene of an accident and another saying he failed to alert dispatch to a traffic stop.

Houck's superiors also had concerns that he failed to take a missing persons report, drove his patrol cruiser while off duty, and came to work late and left early.

Nick Houck's brother Brooks Houck, is the boyfriend of Crystal Rogers. The mother of five has been missing for two months.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/30029640/personnel-file-for-suspended-bardstown-officer-shows-problems-on-the-job

ima.grandma said...

~mj said...
I think that the Heather Elvis case resonated with Mr. Hyatt, in that he was shocked to read Tammy so boldly degrade the victim when it turned out that she had been quite involved. (I personally believe Mr. Hyatt has far more info regarding that case than we the public do and in his info he has more reason to believe that Ms. Moorer was complicit in Heather's disappearance) that being the case, it has then impacted his response to these situations.


Me too ~mj, me too. I believe Tammy participated in the comments arena of applicable posts on this blog in real time. Once picked up on, I became oddly fascinated with her outright narcissism and self-delusion. The foulness of her words showed such contempt toward Heather; it was difficult to keep in mind this was really happening. I kept quiet and learned.

John mcgowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John mcgowan said...

Indeed, ima.grandma, ~mj

Hi,

Tammy broke the mould. This is the beauty of SA. There will always be an exception to the rule / principle. We adapt and learn :)

Peter Hyatt said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn-UCR5p0y0&feature=youtu.be

Another case of struggling to make the news with MSM.

Perhaps Snopes will tell us that these are fake.

Peter

John mcgowan said...

Peter

Re your post

Greece: Seized tanker Haddad 1 concealed 5,000 shotguns 'for Libya Islamists'

Greek authorities have discovered a gargantuan cache of weapons aboard a cargo ship headed to an Islamist controlled area of Libya.

The coastguard said a search of only the first two of the 14 containers carried by the Bolivian vessel Haddad 1 had revealed almost 500,000 rounds of ammunition and 5,000 shotguns, of a type similar to that used by police, with no accompanying documentation.

They were found at the bottom of the containers, concealed by a load of furniture, including drawers, cupboards, and a layer of gymnastic mats.

The Haddad 1, a rusty 65-metre vessel built in 1976 and registered in the port of La Paz, was intercepted off Ierapetra, southeast of Crete, earlier this week, as it was heading to the Libyan city of Misrata.

It had left the southern Turkish port of Iskenderun, about 50km from the Syrian border a few days earlier.

Its crew of seven has been arrested, while inspectors continued searching the remaining containers in the port of Crete's largest city, Iraklion. Greek authorities have not released their nationalities, which local media say include Syrians, Egyptians and Indians.

Greek Marine Minister Christos Zois praised the "professionalism" of the coastguard for the identification of the ship, adding the investigation was ongoing and further information would be released at a later stage. "The count of weapons and ammunition is continuing and we hope that soon we will have more information on this case," he said.

It was not immediately clear who the cargo was being shipped to. The port of arrival, Misrata, is controlled by Libya Dawn, an Islamist umbrella group that took over the capital, Tripoli, last year, ousting the internationally recognised government and installing a rival administration.

Greek media however suggested the Islamic State (Isis) local offshoot, a rival of Libya Dawn, based in nearby Sirte was to be the final recipient.

The Turkish government however said the weapons were destined for the Sudanese police force, also claiming the shipment was fully documented. "If investigations by the Greek authorities show that the consignment is going to receivers other than those stated in the documentation, and if that is shared with us, naturally measures could be taken," foreign ministry spokesman Tanju Bilgic told Reuters. He added the vessel also carried building material for Libya, which is subject to a UN arms embargo.

For sure the Haddad 1 doesn't have a very clean record when it comes to maritime transportation.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/greece-seized-tanker-haddad-1-concealed-5000-shotguns-libya-islamists-1518372

Cont..

John mcgowan said...

....

The vessel is currently banned from any European port, under the Paris Memorandum of Understanding (Paris MoU) control system.

In January, it failed to report safety improvements had been made after it was detained in Spain a few months earlier over a dozen of deficiencies, including invalid safety manning documentation and missing navigation charts. It was the fourth time it was detained in Europe since 2006.

At the time the cargo flew a Cambodian flag and was named Mamo. In February, it was acquired by a company named Haddad Shipping, headquartered in Athens Piraeus port which delegated its operation to another company, IMS Hellenic. According to maritime transparency database Equasis, the two share the same address and appear to have no registered telephone number.

Equasis data shows IMS Hellenic operates another 14 vessels, all flying an array of flags from the following countries: Moldovia, Bolivia, Tanzania, Comoros and Togo. The ships collected a total of nine detentions between them from European authorities in the last three years. IBTimes UK was unable to contact IMS Hellenic for comment.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/greece-seized-tanker-haddad-1-concealed-5000-shotguns-libya-islamists-1518372

John mcgowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John mcgowan said...

OT:

All in the line of duty, yet, rarely reported in the mainstream!.

~Doffs hat to you Sir~

Video:

Oregon police officer stops woman from jumping off bridge

BROOKINGS, Ore. — A police officer was able to stop a woman who attempted to commit suicide, according to body camera footage released by the Brookings Police Department.

Officer Jaired Freeman was first to respond Sunday night after dispatchers reported a 911 call about a possible suicidal person on the bridge at Chetco River. As he approaches, the person tries getting a leg over the railing.

That's when Freeman jumps a barrier to quickly pull her to safety.


http://www.kmtr.com/news/local/Video-Oregon-police-officer-stops-woman-from-jumping-off-bridge-327627281.html

Juliet said...

Some random thoughts

When DeOrr is describing the helicopter crew, he remarks how one guy was hanging strapped from the side - 'his own safety' - a broken sentence. He can't remember his name, he's met so many good people. Was DeOrr perhaps contrasting that bravery and selflessness of the SAR crew in looking for a stranger's son with a similar concern he had for his own safety, possibly an unsuccessful attempt of his own to save,little DeOrr from a perilous situation? Did concern for his own safety ultimately over-ride an attempt to save his son? It's interesting that he chose to say that, and then stalled, continued to talk about the guy, but also changed direction.

Earlier he said that he hadn't wanted to 'risk' getting cut off during a 911 call. There's not much of real risk involved there, just dial again or find a better signal - yet he chooses to use it. Was his not wanting to really have risked something, perhaps his own safety, on his mind? Were they lucky and blessed in some other phone call - lucky in having got through to someone, blessed when they came and helped them - maybe on the Thursday, when little DeOrr went missing? Were they lucky and blessed that things fell together in a certain way, because alone they could not have coped with the situation? The language is odd and incongruous to what he is saying, yet must it not be coming from some place in his mind, where it really felt that way, and so he can't help but use the words, even though they don't fit the context in which he is placing them?

'Dead panic', "dead on', 'we were able to lay that to rest'.

Juliet said...

Continued..

Do they maybe not call their son DeOrr, either in referencing him before the disappearance, or following it, except in the posters, because someone in the family has an objection to him being named after his father? Or is it, more simply, because three generations of DeOrrs in the same household is too confusing for a baby? Is the latter convenient to the former, and so he hardly ever is given his actual name?

J: - especially after screaming his name, we have nicknames for him, no sound of him, no crying.

This I find confusing. First Jessica says they scream his name, but immediately follows this with 'we have nicknames for him'. Can this mean that she is correcting herself? She doesn't want to be untruthful, knows they didn't scream his actual name, but rather his nicknames? Why more than one nickname? Is there not one most used and responded name to scream (call out?) in unison in an emergency? Could it be that one parent calls him by one nickname, the other by another? Is there conflict about what he should be called, and what his name is - did each stick to their own nickname for him, but neither call him DeOrr? Some sort of 'ownership' battle going on around the baby, perhaps, with the day to day expression of that focussed on, and playing out through his name/s? Both parents claim 'ownership' of the baby, both refer to him as 'my son'. Perhaps they are not comfortable using his name if extended family members have objections to DeOrr Sr, and have maybe rejected his name, calling him their own favoured nicknames instead, thereby undermining DeOrr, and putting out the message, we don't acknowledge you, and we are not giving our baby your name? (They are not married - does that make the baby more Jessica's than DeOrr's in the case of the relationship falling apart?) Could it be a sense of rejection as the father of little DeOrr which causes DeOrr to stress his fatherhood as he does, and to address the baby as 'son'? When he seems to hesitate and sounds unconvincing in the recounting of his question to grandpa - you know, where's, where's little DeOrr? - (going from memory there, but I think there was a 'you know') - is it because he didn't ask the question, or because he didn't actually use his name, but just is saying he did, because he wants to be able to use and say it, and for everyone to hear it, and because no-one in the family can undermine him or start an argument over his son's name while he's in the middle of an interview? I don't know - just some wonderings, and probably reading too much into it.

Juliet said...

Possible New Lead in DeOrr Kunz Case (video)

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2015/09/15/deorr-kunz-missing-lead/72298848/

---
Luke Jones, KIFI 6:51 a.m. MDT September 15, 2015

SWAN VALLEY, Idaho - A new lead is being investigated by a private detective in the search for missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.

Kunz was reported missing from the Timber Creek Campground near Leadore on July 10.

After several weeks of searching, the family enlisted the help of Montpelier-based private detective Frank Vilt. Vilt said there have been several tips about a suspicious man nearby in Leadore and further away in Swan Valley, east of Idaho Falls.

The man is described as being in his 50s and having whitish-gray hair with curls at the bottom. He was driving a new-looking black Jeep Rubicon.

Kunz's mother recalls seeing the man at a store in Leadore the morning of her son's disappearance. Vilt said a couple reported seeing a similar-looking man July 18 -- first while hiking in the Palisades and later at a convenience store in Swan Valley.

The woman who saw the man in Swan Valley asked Local News 8 not to identify her, but she said the man "was just staring at my family, just watching us."

She said he kept looking at her husband and four children, including one Kunz's age.

"My husband said to me, 'that man creeps me out in about 12 different ways,'" the woman said.

She said the man was sitting in his Jeep while she and her family ate ice cream outside the Rainey Creek Country Store in Swan Valley.

"I tried to wave at the man because he was obviously watching, and he, at that time, turned his head," the woman said.

The woman told Local News 8 she reported the man to law enforcement in Lemhi County July 19 after hearing reports of Kunz's disappearance.

Friday, she said she relayed the information Vilt, who now says he hopes to have a sketch of the man next week.

If you've seen him, Vilt's asking you call his hotline at 888-852-6505. He's offering a $10,000 reward for credible information regarding Kunz's whereabouts.

Anonymous said...

UPDATE: People should be on the lookout for a newer model black JEEP Rubicon.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2420655/deorr-kunz-jr-case-takes-turn-new-solid-lead-in-toddlers-disappearance-involves-suspicious-man/

-KC

Buckley said...

"I tried to wave at the man because he was obviously watching

"Tried"- how hard is it to wave?

I'm not sure what to do with "obviously".

Sus said...

Ok, am I the only one wondering if the man stared at the couple's son to check if it was Deorr? Was he possibly being a good citizen?

Sus said...

I'm not sure what to do with "watching."

Child Advocate said...

I'm very confused about this case. I don't understand LE advising the family not to speak to media. In missing children's cases, the media is a great tool to get the information out in a short amount of time. Negativity follows in all missing children's cases. Jaycee Dugard's stepfather was a suspect until the day she was found. It didn't stop LE and the family from using the media to get her face out there.

I understand why there was not an Amber Alert issued, it didn't fit the criteria. But why no missing child poster? I'm coadmin on a missing children's site, we get posters daily, but nothing on DeOrr.

I'm wondering if LE is treating this as a recovery rather than a rescue effort.

Child Advocate said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Buckley said...

The sheriff admitting he thinks they might have missed finding Deorr because he might have been in a compartment of one of the vehicles makes me think, yes it is recovery not rescue.

Anonymous said...

He most likely is seeking reward that is about to be announced and wanted to get a jump on the surveillance.Their son was about the same age with blonde hair. Once the mainstream media is involved, the hysteria starts, rumors start flying, the physics are brought in...it's just another day in paradise.

Angelica said...

Juliet wrote

When DeOrr is describing the helicopter crew, he remarks how one guy was hanging strapped from the side - 'his own safety' - a broken sentence. He can't remember his name, he's met so many good people. Was DeOrr perhaps contrasting that bravery and selflessness of the SAR crew in looking for a stranger's son with a similar concern he had for his own safety, possibly an unsuccessful attempt of his own to save,little DeOrr from a perilous situation? Did concern for his own safety ultimately over-ride an attempt to save his son? It's interesting that he chose to say that, and then stalled, continued to talk about the guy, but also changed direction.

Earlier he said that he hadn't wanted to 'risk' getting cut off during a 911 call. There's not much of real risk involved there, just dial again or find a better signal - yet he chooses to use it. Was his not wanting to really have risked something, perhaps his own safety, on his mind? Were they lucky and blessed in some other phone call - lucky in having got through to someone, blessed when they came and helped them - maybe on the Thursday, when little DeOrr went missing? Were they lucky and blessed that things fell together in a certain way, because alone they could not have coped with the situation? The language is odd and incongruous to what he is saying, yet must it not be coming from some place in his mind, where it really felt that way, and so he can't help but use the words, even though they don't fit the context in which he is placing them?

'Dead panic', "dead on', 'we were able to lay that to rest'.


Really good observations Juliet, particularly the "risking his own safety" perhaps betraying that Dad had failed to risk his own safety if baby DeOrr had been put or gotten into a perilous situation.

I'm going to rewatch that part of the interview later this afternoon.

It is so apparent to me that Mom is VERY angry at Dad especially in the beginning of unedited parent interview, when the Dad is marvelling about the skill of the searchers and even seeming to marvel like a little kid at the "night vision" equipment, I am a Mom and I can just see wants to throttle him. If he in fact failed to risk his own safety to save baby DeOrr, him speaking of those things (how brave and skilled the searchers and rescuers are) would fill her with rage!

You are catching some really interesting stuff in the language.

Be back later on today and will reread what you wrote and rewatch.

PS. With the tip about the creepy staring man, I'm thinking it's a false lead.


Anonymous said...

@ Buckley 12:44 - I read "obviously watching" as something like, "it was so obvious he was watching." or "He didn't try to hide the fact that he was watching." etc.
Thoughts?
-KC

Anonymous said...

Yes, he was marvelling. night vision marvel. Bet everything looked yellow at night.

Juliet said...

I don't know what to do with 'that man creeps me out in about twelve different ways' - liars number - times four? Only in 'about' twelve different ways...Was there some uncertainty as to which number might sound somehow convincing there?



Juliet said...

Trina's Facebook

Trina Bates Clegg
Two months ago today tragedy struck our family like a cannon ball taking one of our most precious gifts in life from us---Deorr Jay Kunz Jr. We still have no answers and no clues. I'm asking everyone to please continue all they are doing to help us and pray with us. I can not begin to express our gratitude for everyone who has been there, cried with us, searched, posted pictures, sent out posters and helped us emotional.

I am begging anyone with any information to please come forward and help us. We need to have answers and have Deorr home with his family. Please I'm begging everyone to help us.
10 September

Anonymous said...

we need some Donald trump analysis, his nor of speaking is like no not her however

Juliet said...

Angelica - yes, false lead, but I'm so prone to scepticism now on account of all the Madelene false leads.

Juliet said...

For information, social media, not in news, no idea of source or if this is a genuine discovery of a missing child, or if it could be DeOrr in the photograph:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201008038360255&set=p.10201008038360255&type=1&theater

Jessica Blans said...

It's probably a false lead, but its worth checking out. I can't find anything online that the police dept released about this boy (or about an abandoned child at all). So far looks like only on Facebook...

Anonymous said...

He seriously looks dead on right down to the mouth. I hope the police would have called this in instead of waiting for him to be claimed because I can't help but think they would have raised red flags and held the child longer.

Juliet said...

Yes, I checked out all the Stanton Police and Sheriff Dept pages, not only the Ca page - nothing- some of the pages are not updated, others unofficial. It's two days old original post, so it seems unlikely it could be DeOrr. It does look like him, though very sad and thin - but at that age, toddlers can look quite the same to non-family.

Jessica Blans said...

Yes, doesn't look good. Newest "news" is that the child was claimed already. Someone named Dan Tatum wrote on Facebook post that it was his grandson. WSs are trying to find out if Tatum is related to any of Baby Deorr's family, but it looks unlikely.

Jessica Blans said...

In other news, though:

Kunz family re-enacts toddler's disappearance
http://m.localnews8.com/news/kunz-family-reenacts-toddlers-disappearance/35281146

What a strange couple of days.

Jessica Blans said...

A little more about the boy in the hotel in CA. This is a copy/paste from a public Facebook page, not a closed one:

Mary Beale This was supposedly yesterday or the day before in a hotel in Stanton, California
He wandered into the hotel office after midnight and after an hour of being there police were contacted, supposedly parents located in hotel, child returned. This was supposedly yesterday or the day before in a hotel in Stanton, California
He wandered into the hotel office after midnight and after an hour of being there police were contacted, supposedly parents located in hotel, child returned.

Juliet said...

If anyone who knows DeOrr personally identifies the photo as being him, please be responsible and don't post that he has been found alive - if it is a photo of DeOrr, it could be an old photo, and a cruel hoax. There are some sick people,out there, who we know would like the family to suffer. If it is him, and he is alive, we will know from official sources soon enough.

John mcgowan said...

Re the "man whom allegedly stared"

If, the intention was nefarious, whom in their right mind (yes i know) would draw attention to themselves in that manner. Indeed, it does take all sorts.

I ain't subscribing to it.

Juliet said...

Ah, okay, thanks Jessica - If that is settled, it is sadly not DeOrr.

Jessica Blans said...

Another public Facebook copy/paste:

Becky Bennett I just talked talked to the police department. The child was returned to parents 30 min later. They have gotten probably 100 calls. They did and are doing investigation work to make sure this child went with the right people. I really wanted it to be him...

John mcgowan said...

OT Update:

Investigators find more items of interest in Dylan Redwine case

DURANGO, Colo. -- Sheriff's deputies told the Durango Herald that a search team found several items of interest on Saturday in the investigation into the death of Dylan Redwine, reports CBS Denver.

The 13-year-old disappeared in La Plata County in 2012. Dylan lived north of Colorado Springs with his mother but went to his father's home near Vallecito Reservoir northeast of Durango for a court-ordered visit in November 2012. Mark Redwine has said he returned home from doing errands Nov. 19 to find his son gone.

The items were found in the area where Redwine's body was found in 2013. Deputies are not giving any details about what exactly has been discovered.

No suspects have been named in Redwine's death but his father, Mark Redwine, has been named as a person of interest.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/investigators-find-more-items-of-interest-in-dylan-redwine-case/

Juliet said...

Don't those trucks have tinted windows, anyway - he could watch without being seen if his intentions were nefarious. I like that word, 'nefarious' - it's new to my vocabulary - I don't see it used anywhere but here. :)

Anonymous said...

This picture is not Deorr.

tania cadogan said...

off topic

MARIETTA, Ga. – A judge declined a request from an attorney for a Georgia man accused of killing his toddler son by leaving him in a hot vehicle to bar certain statements his client made to police.

Maddox Kilgore, an attorney for Justin Ross Harris, argued in a pretrial hearing Tuesday that the statements shouldn't be allowed because officers violated his client's constitutional rights.

Harris faces charges including murder in the June 2014 death of his 22-month-old son, Cooper. Attorneys for Harris have said the child's death was a tragic accident.

The judge ruled that some statements were gathered during the on-scene investigation and therefore didn't require the reading of his rights. The other statements were not solicited by officers, so they are admissible even though they were made after he'd invoked his rights

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/15/judge-denies-defense-request-to-bar-man-comments-to-police-from-trial-in-hot/

John mcgowan said...

LEMHI SHERIFF: THE CHILD IN THIS VIRAL POST IS NOT DEORR KUNZ

SALMON – Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman says the child featured on a viral Facebook post is not missing Idaho Falls toddler DeOrr Kunz Jr.

Thousands have shared the photo, originally posted Sunday Sept. 13 by a woman named Maria Red Rum.

Rum writes: “Missing child 9/13 found at motel 6 7450 patella ave stanton ca. 2-3 years of age brown eyes blond hair about 30-35 pounds doesn’t talk much if any information on who might know this child contact stanton pd asap he is in their custody”

The child looks like two-year-old DeOrr Kunz, Jr. and many have contacted EastIdahoNews.com asking if the young boy has been found.

DeOrr Kunz Jr., left, looks similar to the child featured on the right.

“We followed up on this picture,” Bowerman says. “The local police found the childs mother nearby. She was looking for her child. It is not DeOrr.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/lemhi-sheriff-the-child-in-this-viral-post-is-not-deorr-kunz/

Anonymous said...

They say the boy in the picture is 6. I cannot imagine that's true. There is a guy who said he wandered into the office dirty with very dirty diapers and was very tired and was in there 3 hours. Seems to be mixed communication because you wouldn't expect a 6 year old to be in diapers. Plus if this were true you think the police would have made further calls.

Juliet said...

Mariah, Jessica's sister has posted that the boy looks just like her nephew. apparently DeOrr has said that it looks like his son. here is Mariah's comment (screenshot from a commenter's page):

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=940383849337181&set=p.940383849337181&type=1

Demands on East Idaho news Facebook page by readers that DNA tests should be run on the boy.

Concerning he was turned over to his mother as he was alone, and apparently wearing only a soiled diaper and was very dirty - the guy whose girlfriend cleaned him up, bought diapers, and took the photos (there is another there in the comments) said the mother should be charged with neglect.

The family are only saying the boy looks like DeOrr, not that they think it is him. Commenters suggesting the family themselves should be demanding a DNA test.

https://www.facebook.com/EastIdahoNews?ref=ts&fref=ts

Juliet said...

It was a typo mix up in the earlier report - Motel 6 - the boy is two or three years old.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the girl taking care of him still has the shirt she put on him that could be sent to the private investigator to double check Dna. I understand if you have a missing child and a family runs up frantic saying omg thank you so much for finding him scooping him into their arms and kissing their head that you would think hey glad we reunited them. But if they had ran his stats and age there should have been red flags and they could have paid more attention. It looks like him but high probability it's not. When they found the little girls body in Massachusetts I came to the realization that kids can look alive with the same hair styles and chubby cheeks and same shape of eyes. He looks sad and neglected... Maybe he is not. But if it's true that he was missing for hours I think a cps call should have been in order.

Anonymous said...

Maria Red Rum.....
Red Rum red rum......lol
(The Shining)

Buckley said...

Lol- Where's backward speech guy when we need him?

Maria Red Rum, on facebook, says her name is pronounced FUK awf bich.

Anonymous said...

Horror seekers head to the hill of Utah!

The pushed the toddler through a stump grinder. Grandpa used an axe on toddler and man disposed of remains. The mother drugged him and hid him. The friend beat his skull with a rock. Blah, blah, blah.

Good enough to get featured on the NG child mutilation/porn hour.

The stood stoic on news of the suspicious man in the Jeep Rubicon. There might not be more than 20,000 of them in the area.

Dyeing blonde headed boys hair might be in order to quell the disorder not yet coined by doctorates or "experts."

He gets about this one does.

Angelica said...

Juliet, I am rewatching video:



You pointed out DeOrr using the term "dead panic" at the beginning of the interview.

At 0:45, shortly after he uses that term, when he is rambling about searching for DeOrr in "such a small area", did you notice him kind of stumbling over his words and at 0:45 and saying "never being there, I knew I was in trouble."

(Just going to go through video and see if I can spot anything as you are finding a lot in the language I didn't see at first.)


Angelica said...

At 3:30 when DeOrr is praising the "world's most advanced search helicopter" from Montana, he says the helicopter "was designed for a lot worse situations than this" but found no trace of his son.

While in the midst of it, what could be worse than a person's 2 year old son missing in the wilderness?

Angelica said...

At 12:50, when Jessica is talking about people sharing DeOrr's picture to help him be found, DeOrr speaks up over her and says "somebody will come forward wondering where this child has come from."

So, if I may, extracted from DeOrr's speech:

1) He was never there.

2) He knew he was in trouble.

3) Somebody will come forward wondering where this child has come from. (This statement from DeOrr brings to mind someone discovering a child either dropped off somewhere or, and I dread to say this, but if someone found a child's remains. It does not fit with their belief that the child was abducted.)

Angelica said...

Did anyone notice in the video, does the mother shut off or silence her phone towards the beginning of the interview? She reaches down towards her pants pocket and appears to push a button on a cell phone. A few seconds before the end of the video you can see she pulls the phone out and seems to be unsilencing it.

This, to me, is not a good sign.
Scott Peterson shut his phone off also when his interview had started with Diane Sawyer when people were actively searching for missing Lacy.
If someone is anxiously awaiting any info on their son, why would they shut their phone off or silence it?
It may mean nothing, but it doesn't seem particularly encouraging about viewing the parents as innocent :/

MzOpinion8d said...

I think DeOrr may have meant the helicopter was designed for worse "conditions" and said "situations" by mistake. Simply due to the context of how he was describing its capabilities. But I am no expert speech analyzer!

Anonymous said...

Hi, my first post.

One thing in the parents interview video that jumped out at me was when a lady off camera asks them to mention the EMT incident. Jessica, having heard this, looks horrified/panicked and virtually kicks Deorr Senior. He is somewhat flustered too.

This is more a body language thing but it seems to me whatever this EMT thing was about it was/is very sensitive.

Deorr Senior says he will get to that but they never do.

Angelica said...

Anon @ 7;48,

Oh, wow! That is odd, and I could not hear what the lady off-camera was saying when I went through it.

The EMT thing is where someone shattered a car window that had an EMT bag in it correct and the car was somewhat nearby the campground?

Anonymous said...

Anon @8:06,

Yes she says: we need to address the EMT bag and a few seconds later again even more firmly
says: we need to talk about the EMT bag.

Whatever it is about, it is odd and I wonder why they avoided it.

Angelica said...

That's actually quite scary if the EMT incident is sensitive to them.

If they were the ones who broke the window to try to get at the bag, then they knew the bag was there. That would point to a staged/intentional injury/assault towards their child and trying to "save" him without actually intending to.

Is it true these 2 had life insurance out on baby DeOrr, bc I have seen that info on 2 different comment boards saying she had posted on her fb that they had a $500,000 life insurance out on baby DeOrr but then she shut her page down and erased it before reactivating the page.

(I'm going to go find that part in the video with the off camera woman. Thank you.)

Angelica said...

I think the video needs to be rewatched to look for language that could be found in life insurance type statements, policies, etc.

Juliet noticed "risk", "his own safety" etc.

Thank you for this information anon about the EMT bag sensitivity.

Anonymous said...

Immediately after the lady off camera says: Have you told them about the EMT bag, that needs to be addressed...Nate Eaton says: Yeah, I know social media can be a good thing but can also be a bad thing.

Was the EMT bag a rumour on Facebook? If so, why be so sketchy about it? Why not clear it up..

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night.

Juliet said...

Angelica - Jessica is even more specific than DeOrr - she says that EVENTUALLY someone will come forward. I don't know why she would be thinking later rather than sooner.

Window smashed out of the back of a pick-up truck is what Trina said it pick-ups don't have window at the back - maybe meant someone climbed into the bed of the truck to smash out the back window at the front of the truck, though a side window might have been easier unless it was a tall truck.

Jessica takes out her phone toward the end of the interview - haven't noticed if she did so at the beginning.

:)

I'm gutted about this mystery DeOrr lookalike being let go back to his mother, even more if it turns out she is not his mother and it's DeOrr - why didn't they turn him over to CPS so they could check things out at home? Two or three - left alone, dirty diaper, dirty, looks sad and thin - in the second photo it also looks as if he has a bald patch on his scalp.

Maria Red Rum - she's not a friend of any of their friends friends, is she? I have this vague idea I encountered her somewhere, incidentally, before. I suppose there are a lot of Red Rums on Facebook though, and it all becomes too ludicrous, he looks very much like DeOrr. The family is not excited enough, or immediately sure of the photo, so it doesn't seem likely it can be him. They say everyone has a doppelgänger. It's like twins, with a non-related baby though, they can look very similar, but the parent knows which is theirs. I should probably sleep.

Juliet said...

Well, which is which - they'd know if it was DeOrr, I'm sure. I'd still want a DNA test, though, because maybe they wouldn't know - babies can change quite a bit in two months.

Angelica said...

Juliet,

I hadn't even seen a picture of the kid they found out in CA. I just looked it up. It is eerie how similar they look!!! The only thing that might look a little different is their eyebrows! What a resemblance...that is freaky.

Juliet said...

Cowboy hat photo is interesting for eyebrow comparison, Angelica.
---

Comments made by the family on the boy found in a Motel 6, Stanton, Cal - found on Kifi local news eight - some were posted there as screenshots from other sites:


DeOrr Kunz We are on it already
Like · Reply · 70 · 3 hrs

DeOrr Kunz We don't know yet but hopeing and praying
Like · Reply · 27 · 3 hrs

Mariah Lynn Mitchell
Even though they have stated it is not him they are still looking for the woman and the baby. Who leaves their kid in a motel and then goes back and just gets to pick him up. Seems weird to me and looks just like my nephew.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153511671715340&set=p.10153511671715340&type=1

Trina Bates Clegg
I as the Grandma, his parents and family what DNA tests Done!!!!!

DeOrr Kunz
How was this confirmed it's not my son I'm glad the news has that info but I as the parent do not so kifi local news 8 how was this confirmed

Brennon Birch I talked to Trina. She said they do want a DNA test so let's just hope for the best
Like · Reply · 5 · 3 hrs

----
The second photo on commenter's FB page - Maria red rum doesn't have it on her own

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153555982656125&set=p.10153555982656125&type=1

----
Isaac, meanwhile, has posted on his Facebook, a picture of a mannequin dressed in a turquoise blue and black dress, all Norman Bates like, to go with the motel, as you do.

:)

Angelica said...

Just looked at photo from link you posted Juliet.

Did you notice whoever the CA boy is his hair looks like it has been dyed. It is at least 3 different colors depending on how close to the root of the hair.

Juliet said...

Angelica at 6,40 - rapid response unit in fail mode here - I can't keep up with you. :) I think DeOrr had been there before, but not up the road at the back - he didn't realise the campground was viewable from above, or that you could see to the bottom of the shallow,reservoir from up there either. He seemed rather concerned at this discovery my which makes me think he was hoping that something which had gone on in the campsite and reservoir had not been witnessed from above. Generally, I think, he was anxious about things not being 'found out'. There are some inaudible words round 'found out' but the 'found out' is interesting in itself. What might anyone have found out, though?

Juliet said...

Yes, the hair looks dyed, but it may be that the little boy's hair is darker in winter and the top bleaches naturally in the sun - we can't say it's DeOrr with his blond bushy hair dyed - we would just like it to be DeOrr, all alive and still recoverable. :-/.

Juliet said...

Anon at 6.03 - they'll find the mother and boy, if Ita's not DeOrr, she has no reason to flee like a fugitive. If they can't find her, they'll probably have the soiled diaper from Maria Red Rum.

Anonymous said...

I agree it looks dyed. Now they did say his mother was Hispanic. Maybe they tried to dye it to blend in and then bleached it out to sell him. He doesn't look Hispanic honestly.

Juliet said...

Why is DeOrr saying he's glad the news has the information that it's not his son? He can't mean that - he's just being shirty because he doesn't know how they can be quite so sure it is not little DeOrr.

Anonymous said...

http://www.newsweek.com/report-illinois-police-investigating-if-officer-thought-be-killed-actually-372761

The coroner made his own press release on this one. There's no end to the mystery is there?

I don't believe a seasoned police officer would call in chasing three thugs then abruptly commit suicide.

Oakley A said...

Nose the same?
Photo Comparison http://herwisdon.blogspot.com/2015/09/photo-comparison.html

Juliet said...

Here's Maria Red Rum's page with the photo of the sad little boy found in the motel, and the ongoing comment frenzy - it"s viewable without logging in so long as you have a FB account:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1641893442718528&set=a.1377628695811672.1073741825.100006936635062&type=1&comment_id=1642450699329469&ref=notif&notif_t=photo_reply&hc_location=ufi

Juliet said...

The photos are taken at different angles, Oakley - there are other side by sides in which the nose does look the same, but in the pictures where DeOrr's nose is well defined, it looks different. The likeness is strong, but I think only the family would know him in enough detail from enough angles to be able to identify him from those two photos.

Angelica said...

Very strange a 2 year old's hair is dyed and it looks like whoever dyed it dyed it black and then brown and then blond. Just bizarre. And parents lose track of him in a hotel? Uncanny. I hope it is DeOrr, otherwise, what a bizarre coincidence. Unless it's some other stolen kid???

Oakley A said...

Nose shape is differing at the nostrils despite the angle.

Angelica said...

But if he lost weight over the past 2 months maybe it could change nose shape a little? The 2 yr old wandered into motel, he is missing for hrs yet his "mother" doesn't call police, a woman wanders into the motel, claims it is her son.

I wonder if the boy (whoever he is) was actually sold and the motel was a neutral place for the buyer to pick him up, the sellers given money and tell woman to pick him up at motel. Way too weird about hair being dyed 3 times.

Something's up. I wonder if it could be DeOrr and he probably could look facially a little different than 2 mos ago from lost weight?

Oakley A said...

Googled :The nose will not change shape depending upon weight gain or loss. There is no fat in the nose structure. The face does have fat present which will change shape depending upon weight gain or loss. 

Anonymous said...

Anonymous: "I agree it looks dyed. Now they did say his mother was Hispanic. Maybe they tried to dye it to blend in and then bleached it out to sell him. He doesn't look Hispanic honestly."

Briefly About Frank Vilt: "He is presently completing a book about his years as a Deputy U. S. Marshal that involved the stopping a hijacking at the Los Angeles International Airport, making many high profile arrests and locating his two kidnapped children that were missing in Mexico for over two years."

Anonymous said...

Public Facebook comments:

"These are bits of information I've pieced together from various sources:

This boy wandered into a Motel 6 outside of Anaheim, CA on Sunday night. He was wearing nothing but a dirty diaper. Police were called. After 3 hours, a woman showed up, claiming it was her son. The boy was released to her on the spot with no questions asked.

Other notes:

Two Motel 6 staff members were on-site and noted neglect. The boy didn't talk much. Said "Mickey" (rumors of Deorr having a dog named Mickey). Wore a size 4 diaper. Brown eyes, blond hair. Matted hair as seen in photos. Caucasian, 2-3 years old, about 30 pounds.

Originally there were stories published that this is not Deorr, but there now appears to be an investigation, according to the Lemhi sheriff's department. Deorr Kunz Sr. has stated on the KIFI page that it has NOT been confirmed that this is not Deorr Jr. The family appears to be in touch with the Motel 6 witnesses. Motel 6 witnesses have contacted authorities, including the FBI, and say that there is surveillance footage available. No description available yet of the woman our possible Deorr was released to."

"Has anyone noticed. The woman who posted this name spells Murder. Backwards"

Oakley A said...

LEMHI SHERIFF: THE CHILD IN THIS VIRAL POST IS NOT DEORR KUNZ://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/lemhi-sheriff-the-child-in-this-viral-post-is-not-deorr-kunz/

Oakley A said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sus said...

If his death is a suicide, it's going to be hard to take. It's already greatly affected the community and fellow LE.

Detail wise it will be the first suicide I have ever seen that the person shot at there bullet-proof vest first. What? He forgot he had it on? Then he decided to fire the fatal shot downward under his vest? Why not in his head?

As to mental factors, he was close to retirement, which can be a danger time for work-a-holics. But, I read he wanted to retire, and he was only staying on this past month as a favor to the new chief.

I don't know. Sad all around.

Juliet said...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153555982656125&set=p.10153555982656125&type=1

Is it the way my colours display or is this little boy's hair sprayed green in places? Second photo.

Does DeOrr have a dog named Mickey? Apparently the boy said Mickey, and DeOrr is said to have a dog named Mickey.

Oakley, it seems the Sheriff may have been a little premature in announcing it is not DeOrr - the child was apparently handed over to his mother with no questions asked,or names taken, and there is now an investigation - they are trying to locate her to check she is the mother of the child. Some speculation that she might not be his mother as she is Hispanic and the boy does not look Hispanic. Maybe the sheriff has other reason to be confident it is not DeOrr. :-/

Oakley A said...

What source is sighting that there is an investigation?

Juliet said...

Anon at 11.16 - Maria Red Rum, murder backwards, student of mortuary science, is the person who found and looked after the lost little boy at the motel until the police arrived. It,is she who took the photos, one of which is on her page, with the,many comments'

Anonymous said...

From Social Media:

I've been wrestling with this all day, but I think it needs to be said.
On Friday, Frank told me that he had tracked down Isaac and GGPA fishing because he had received a tip that Isaac told Taz Anderson that he knew where the body was.
However Trina found out that he was talking to her Dad without going through her, so she confronted him about it. He said he had to go out there because he received a tip that Isaac was going to shoot the GGPA!
So my questions are:
1) Is Frank sharing all these tips with LE before he goes off to investigate them?
2) Frank told me that after visiting with GGPA and Isaac, he doesn't think Isaac is responsible. If he received a tip that Isaac said he knew where the body was and was going to kill the grandfather, how did he conclude that they were both fake just by talking to Isaac for one afternoon?
3) If he is so sure that Deorr was abducted, why would he tell Trina what he did? Does he think Isaac was helping this "staring man"?

Juliet said...

Oakley, I don't know, I read it in several places,but I didn't keep track. It appears to not be true, anyway - this is what Brennon just posted:

Brennon Birch Still no hard proof it is not Deorr jr. . when parents contacted CA. Police department where this boy was found they hung up on the parents saying the case was closed and the boys parents were found . but would not put the parents minds at ease with any kind of proof . I'll post more when I know more


Angelica said...

Juliet,

I kind of see what you mean in the picture with the greenish tint in the hair. It sort of looks like what can happen when someone puts peroxide in their hair to try to lighten it--I've seen that blondish color with greenish tint. The boy looks underweight also. This boy was not being fed enough, so who knows it could be Deorr. His face would look different had he lost that kind of weight (although I don't know about nose changing). But all things considered, how strange!!! I hope they find the boy and do DNA test.

Juliet said...

John Peterson IV Honestly this little boy is my "Nephew", my brother is in jail and the mother was on a drug binge or something. I can only guess that she left him alone to go do drugs. They are not fit parents and live on the streets and in and out of motels. Sorry to everyone that thought it could be a missing boy but its not.
Like · Reply · 2 · 46 minutes ago


------

Doppelgänger by the looks of things - ?

Juliet said...

John Peterson IV The father is my half brother and the mother I only know her first name. Im not going to throw it out there though. Its a matter for the police to deal with not facebook. I just came on her to state what I know.
Like · Reply · 6 · 19 minutes ago · Edited

Ashlee Steggell At least call the hotline and give THEM her name, you don't have to put it on Facebook. Please. So his parents have that confirmation
Like · Reply · 3 · 18 minutes ago

Ashley Portugal Or call the parents and give them this info! They deserve to hear it
Like · Reply · 1 · 17 minutes ago

John Peterson IV Felicia Michelle Seeley as far as my mother having photos of him, she might. I dont exactly get along with my mother so I dont have her on facebook to try to keep my space. If I can find more I will post
Like · Reply · 16 minutes ago

Elizabeth Arellano John Peterson IV I messaged you check your other folder
Like · Reply · 14 minutes ago

Brittany Senter Who is Felicia?
Like · Reply · 1 · 13 minutes ago

Lo Loda I agree that if this is true you should at least call the tip line rather than assuming that things have been "cleared up." Think of the agony you would feel not knowing if your missing baby had been found or not. I would hope that any parent would try to save another parent from the pain of false hope.
Like · Reply · 5 · 12 minutes ago

Ali Everett John, you might want to lock up your profile. People are losing their damn minds over this.
Like · Reply · 1 · 12 minutes ago

Lo Loda People aren't losing their minds -- they're hoping that there's a chance a missing baby might actually be alive.
Like · Reply · 7 · 10 minutes ago

Elizabeth Arellano Well Ali of course people are losing their minds when there is a missing child involved and one that was recently just found and the missing child's dad even thinks its his son of course people are gonna lose their minds!! What if it were your child!
Like · Reply · 2 · 9 minutes ago

Elizabeth Arellano John Peterson IV did you get my message I sent
Like · Reply · 9 minutes ago

John Peterson IV honestly Facebook is locking up, its not showing me all the post that are going on due to the amount for some reason
Like · Reply · 1 · 8 minutes ago

Juliet said...

John Peterson IV I promise you I feel sorry for the missing boy, I have 3 of my own kids and would be devastated. but somethings are better left to the police and not facebook detectives.
Like · Reply · 3 · 7 minutes ago

Lo Loda John I think what people are trying to say is that YOU are not a Facebook detective. If you're telling the truth, you're a real person who's connected to the story, with real information that could help the Kunz family. That's why people are asking you to at least contact the tip line with the information about your nephew's identity, just in case the kunz family actually doesn't have all the information you're assuming they do.
Like · Reply · 3 minutes ago

Juliet said...

Trinity Haselwander John Peterson IV thank you for taking the time to answer some questions. I'm sorry this has been thrown at you. There are some very passionate people that just need answers. So thank you again.
Like · Reply · 4 · 13 minutes ago

John Peterson IV I understand, thats why I posted. If I can find more pictures of him with my family I will post. I hope and Pray the little boy from Idaho is found safe and healthy.
Like · Reply · 1 · 8 minutes ago

lynda said...

I'm still surprised that the phrase "he doesn't look Hispanic" hasn't been blown out of the water. What does a "Hispanic" look like? Unless of course they meant the negative stereotype of "brown, round, Mexican. I'm Mexican and have black hair and green eyes and what you would consider "white" skin. My sister has black hair, black eyes, and her skin is darker than a light skinned African-American. I have cousins that are blond and blue or brown eyed with fair skin. It's the European influence. A true Mexican has European blood (from Spanish invasion). Just a pet peeve of mine when someone states that people don't "look" like they're "supposed to" hell, most people don't even realize a Mexican has Indian blood.

Peter Hyatt said...

Lynda,

I am often said to look "Irish."

Generalizations are built, not on exception, but upon majority. There are always exceptions. We do not establish principle, or norms, on exceptions.

The hyper-sensitive viewpoint where every distinction is inherently "insulting" has its consequences for society.

This is generally not seen until violence and death reach a point where the sacrifice of truth is no longer expedient.

Peter

Anonymous said...

Okay, Utah missing and endangered list has been updated within the last 24 hours, and now that Sturgis is torched, lots of digging, prowling, intimidating and charity work to be completed.

What's the reason for your non-conclusion?

Let 'er rip!

Juliet said...

I don't know if there's any more solid confirmation today about the little boy in the motel, but I would think that if the mother has a drug problem and spends a lot of time on the streets and in motels, that the police are already aware of her and her children, which is probably why they handed the boy over to her - I'd think they already know her and so didn't find any need to establish the boy's identity. It's sad for the kids trapped by their parents' addictions, but the police are not social workers and they see the way people live, and are more familiar with that strata of society and its sub culture, and the unfortunate kids who exist within it but who are not considered quite neglected enough to warrant removal - I'd guess they would contact the appropriate people if they judge that necessary. It's a sad world. People can jump to very hasty conclusions, but, really, why imagine the police would just release the child if they didn't already know of the mother and her kids?

The guy posting about the boy being his nephew, I think is genuine, very reluctant to get involved because he doesn't want to throw his family into the court of Facebook, or be judged himself, but he knows the boy is not DeOrr, so felt compelled to tell people that - the photo he posted does look like the little boy, and DeOrr. He also said the kids had previously been removed, so it doesn't sound as if the child welfare services are not already aware if and involved with the family.

Juliet said...

Anon at 9.18 - well, I don't think it's because Peter has been thrown off course by the dogs. Maybe because there's been so little about Isaac and grandpa, no public interviews or statements from them, besides Isaacs grunts from behind his door, which is so strange. Plus Jessica's questioning who would harm them in this way - especially knowing what he means to them - 'he's everything to us'. I don't know, not beyond what he already has said about his caution in earlier posts.

lynda said...

Peter, I totally agree with your comments. It's a pet peeve only because people don't realize or have knowledge of where "people" actually come from and who their ancestors are. I should have clarified my position, it's the ignorance of history in our own country that is the pet peeve. I'm never insulted and I think I have my mother to thank for that. I was very small and someone called me a "spic." I had no idea what that was of course and asked my mom. Now, in Mexican culture, the term "spic" is equal to the "N" word in African-American culture. My mom just shook her head and said, they're just words and people that use words like that are just ignorant, and those are who you pray for. I've been called spic, beaner, taco bender, wetback, pepper belly, oh the list goes on and on and when said, it always makes me smile because it brings back my mom. There is no power in those words to me. Not to mention, it drives the people trying to cripple you with name-calling crazy! lol. It pains me to see the hypersensitivity that people have, and the violence they justify because of it. No violence should ever be wrought because some ignorant person calls you a name.

Juliet said...

I am questioning myself there, as much as anyone else, with regard to making hasty conclusions about the police 'just' handing the boy over, no questions asked. It's too easy to allow oneself to be drawn in by the Facebook reactions, which are so often thought-free, stupid and simplistic. It doesn't cost anything to stop and think.

Juliet said...

Anon at 12.06 - if grandpa got shot it's fair to say things would look a bit bad for Isaac. Say what's written there is true, though - your post again:

From Social Media:

I've been wrestling with this all day, but I think it needs to be said.
On Friday, Frank told me that he had tracked down Isaac and GGPA fishing because he had received a tip that Isaac told Taz Anderson that he knew where the body was.
However Trina found out that he was talking to her Dad without going through her, so she confronted him about it. He said he had to go out there because he received a tip that Isaac was going to shoot the GGPA!
So my questions are:
1) Is Frank sharing all these tips with LE before he goes off to investigate them?
2) Frank told me that after visiting with GGPA and Isaac, he doesn't think Isaac is responsible. If he received a tip that Isaac said he knew where the body was and was going to kill the grandfather, how did he conclude that they were both fake just by talking to Isaac for one afternoon?
3) If he is so sure that Deorr was abducted, why would he tell Trina what he did? Does he think Isaac was helping this "staring man"?

----
So life goes on, and great grandpa and Isaac are friends who, despite the concerns of some around Isaac, continue to go fishing together. As they relax, waiting for something to bite, they either share knowledge which they are content to share, or they know nothing about what happened to little DeOrr, and have no reason to regard one another with suspicion, perhaps because they were not at the campsite when the baby disappeared. If grandpa suspected Isaac of having harmed his great-grandson would he even be in contact with him, much less fishing with him? Or could it be that one is in some way beholden to the other and has been summoned to 'go fishing'?

Grandpa lives with Trina, who may or may not be aware that grandpa and Isaac have gone fishing together. Reasonably, she is likely to know, but perhaps not, if they go fishing close by, and while Trina is at work. What of grandpa's 'carer' though? Isaac was described as such, but also Jessica had been hired by Trina to care for grandpa. Do either of these arrangements still stand? If so, or even if someone else now fulfils that role, Trina or Jessica are very likely to be aware that grandpa and Isaac are fishing - the carer being accountable to the one hiring. Are relationships so good, that no objection is raised to grandpa and Isaac's fishing? How strange/unexpected that would be - unless, as claimed, the baby had just disappeared, which does not happen often.

Trina's concern was that the PI had spoken to her father without going through her, rather than that grandpa was fishing with Isaac, and apparently intended to shoot him? Well, Grandpa does seem something of a liability. What is it that he might say, if no-one is there to prevent him from saying it?

I find it very strange that this stuff is posted on social media. Would the PI really say all this stuff, in the knowledge that it will likely be known in Australia before the conversation is even done? Is he perhaps anxious, in too deep into something, and so is wanting it put out there? If the tips are false, someone is desperate to incriminate Isaac.

Just because the PI might have said he doesn't think Isaac is responsible, doesn't mean that he did say that, or that he doesn't think Isaac isn't in some way involved in a cover-up. The PI isn't sure that DeOrr has been abducted, probably because there is no evidence to support the theory. Trina, also, is not convinced of abduction - if she was, why would she be organising a search, and continually asking for 'answers' whilst also feeling she is very satisfied with 'the answers' as she looks into Jessica and DeOrr's eyes?

Juliet said...

*fishing with Isaac, who apparently intended to shoot him*

Sus said...

I read through the comments about the "Motel 6" boy on Facebook and news sites. What hit me was the number of people stating they called Stanton and/or Idaho PD to ASK about it. Angie Phillips planned to go in to the station today to "straighten it out." I clicked on these people's face books. These are people who have absolutely nothing to do with the case. They are offering no help. They just want to know for their own satisfaction. They are tying up police lines and causing a hindrance.

Then I see the SM conversations that anon and Jessica Blan supplied for us. Where Vilt supposedly is just telling his actions to anyone who calls him. And calling him they are...$10,000 obviously speaks to the Idaho Falls and Leadore communities.

Juliet said...

Also, what has changed to apparently enable Jessica to produce 'answers', since she herself asked 'who would harm us in this way? Especially knowing what he means to us - he's everything to us.' Jessica has gone from this to being expected, and able, to give very satisfactory 'answers' to her mother? Her answer can only be to continue asking the same question, presumably. Her answers must be that someone took him, and she doesn't know who, but she suspects someone who knows how much the baby means to them. Trina is very satisfied to believe that, though it's the least likely explanation. So she wants a search, and is 100% committed to finding the 'answers'.

My brain is frying. :-/

Angelica said...

After rewatching parent interview several times, and yes, I will be watching it again, bc I do not discount people saying that Jessica had posted some time ago on her FB about a $500,000 life insurance policy they had on baby DeOrr...I think the parents did it, and I think it was premeditated and they got their story pretty straight beforehand, and that is why we are not seeing a lot of typical "lie" indicators that will occur when someone is looking back and constructing what happened not from true memory.

From some of the things that Juliet found in the language (note: I am not saying she in any way agrees with this theory of mine) I do believe baby DeOrr was injured or killed and Dad did not "save" him, there is so much overcompensating done by the Dad in praising the talent and sophistication of the search equipment and the "risks" taken by the searchers, I get the feeling it's a type of internal excuse like as if he is justifying or thinking to himself 'I did not have all of the best equipment in the world like these guys do, the man leaning off the helicopter was risking his life (was he really? truly risking his life? I doubt that would be allowed.), therefore I don't need to feel as bad about not "saving" him.

I feel like Grandpa and buddy were not the perpetrators, more like props, they had to be there for the whole "I thought YOU were watching him."

Grandma I think may be involved, but I am not going to guess what her involvement may be.

John mcgowan said...

Buckley said...

"Lol- Where's backward speech guy when we need him?"

He is looking for himself in the mirror, while trying to reverse himself, tangled up in a rubiks cube, in a box of conundrums, wrapped inside an enigma, while playing snakes and ladders, monopoly, cluedo, while subscribing to his deluded, self appointed god complex.

Well, it does take all sorts!

Bad Mommy said...

1. Let's suppose that, while on a camping trip with several people, a young couple decides their son will be "safe" with GGPA and a friend, since he is about to go down for his nap anyway, while they go for a walk to a private location to get their groove on or to smoke a little something... they return and the child is missing. They probably feel guilt, which may have been intensified by any drug use. A little paranoid about calling in police until they look around a bit, brush teeth, put on cologne, etc.

While Mom calls police from the campsite, Dad heads off to "find a signal" (and discard the contraband). Later on, when Dad sees the view from above, he realizes that whatever he and Mom had been doing while DeOrr Jr. was disappearing would have been seen from above (and was embarassed, particularly if it was a "sex thing"). That may ALSO explain why Mom would be annoyed with him. Because he wanted to go off and fool around in the woods, her son is missing.

OR

2. They knew DeOrr had been injured earlier in the day. They went to the store where he was seen crying, because the injury was pretty serious. They get him to go to sleep (maybe using benadryl or something stronger) to make him stop crying, and he ODs and does not wake up.

3. Since they were not able to check on his condition while LE was taking the report, someone grabbed an EMT bag in the hopes they could patch up the injury he had sustained earlier in the day, assuming they could just call LE and tell them he had been found, fix him up, and continue their vacation, but he had already ODs on the sleep aid that Dad had told Mom would be a safe thing to drug him with so he'd sleep.

These are pretty farfetched ideas, the last most of all, but a million things could have happened and nothing has been ruled out yet.

TRUE STORY (though I know how it makes me sound)
Five adults and my daughter went on a camping trip. No running water, no power, and nobody had a cell phone (assuming we had even gotten a signal where we were) went camping, and had not even considered checking in advance to find out where the nearest hospital was, never dreaming anyone would get hurt.

My daughter stepped on a metal grill that had only been taken off the campfire moments before. She had been told NOT to walk between the fire pit and the tree because it was there, but was not paying attention. She burned her foot.

We put ice on it, but each time it melted away, she began to wail again. In examining the foot, it looked like it had seared the flesh. No blisters, but a yellowish "brand" mark. We continued to apply ice until there was no more ice.

One of the adults asked if she could give my daughter half of an adult dose OTC pain medication, presumably Aleve as it was blue. Within minutes she stopped crying and fell asleep. In the morning she woke up with a mark on her foot, but was able to walk on it and it gave her no further problems.

I later learned that the pill I had been told was for pain was actually either Valium or Xanax. She only took half of a dose that was low to begin with, and it worked, but I would not have agreed to give her a prescription anxiety medication if I had realized what it was.

She was 9 years old, so it is unlikely she would have overdosed even if given the whole pill, and I still feel as if I should have asked more questions before she took it, but was desperate to find some relief for her.

Bad Mommy said...

Actually, the truth is that I do not KNOW if I would have refused to let her take part of a valium if I had known it would do what it did, i.e. put her to sleep and have her wake up the next morning without pain. I would like to THINK I would have said "no", but in hindsight, that is, knowing how it turned out, I might actually have not only agreed to it, but agreed to it much sooner in the evening, because it "solved" the problem.

Juliet said...

Bad Mommy - a straightforward OD would be explainable as an accident, they could have said he got into pills, stuff was left lying round in the process of setting up camp. I had not considered accidental overdose to make him sleep after an injury - I still tend not to go for that though, because if he was injured accidentally they still could have called 911.

Your suggestion re what they might have been doing, and DeOrr's concern that they had been seen, and Jessica's anger if something had happened to the baby whilst they were away -that could well explain his anxiety, and Jessica's anger towards him. That's very interesting, as it shows how there could be guilt there, but not because they had necessarily done anything wrong, besides leaving their child, which may not have been wrong so much as a lapse of proper judgement as to how safe he was - they may have assumed he was asleep when he was not, they may nothave been intentionally negligent in leaving him.

It sounds that at least DeOrr may have been negligent though, if really he did watch him till he figured he was gone - I need to listen again, to see at what point he said that, but I'm pretty sure DeOrr was not seen by anyone after he said that. Not sure when grandpa saw him playing in the dirt, or if the parents even said, or if it was only Trina who said it.

Sus said...

Bad Mommy,
Kudos to you. We've all been there, at least I have. See how I tried to spread that around. :-). I want to give the benefit of the doubt to these parents, to see those sensitive areas as explainable. It's getting more difficult, though.

Peter has said he sees it as an unintended death, not necessarily an accident, but not preplanned. I agree with Peter. Where I'm having difficulty is did the parents kill Little Deorr or do they know someone else did?

I cannot get past the hinkiness of IR and ggp. I just can't.

Anonymous said...

Now the PI says that JM and DK left DeOrr with GGF in the morning, and GGF at some point went inside his camper, and "may have been distracted". That doesn't match what the Sheriff said. If DeOrr went missing in the morning, what about his trip to the store with his parents "as a family" in the afternoon? Slippage?

Juliet said...

Mariah Lyn Mitchell - (little DeOrr's aunt)

I want everyone on my page to know that little boy from California was NOT baby DJ. As much as we all wanted it to be it isn't. I really
appreciate everybody still keeping their eyes out for him. He is missed very much and needs to be returned safely to his family! Again thank you to everyone, our family can't thank you enough!


Mariah Lyn Mitchell The little boy's uncle commented on the original post but even before he had posted on it they had confirmed it wasn't him
1 · 9 hrs





Juliet said...

Anon at 5.34pm - will you share where the PI has said that, please? If it's so, I am wondering if the investigators have better clarified that bit of he 911 call, the point at which Jessica seems to say her son has been missing for around an hour - someone felt that what she actually said was 'from around the morning' or similar. It is not clear, but they have ways of cleaning up the sound and making the words more audible. If she said that, well, morning begins just after midnight, and if only around or about that long, possibly from even earlier. I think something happened on the Thursday.

Buckley said...

I don't know about morning vs afternoon, but my growing sense is that Vilt is trying to muddy the waters and create reasonable doubt to a potential jury pool.

Oakley A said...

What?! Peter's not Irish? :)

Oakley A said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bad Mommy said...

Juliet

In the case of my own daughter, the individual who gave her the sedative was a family friend with a legitimate prescription for the tablets. If DeOrr had OD'd on something NOT prescribed to any of them, there might be a bigger problem explaining where he got it (and might explain why Dad would have been tempted to hide the "evidence" (pills, etc.) by leaving the area on the pretense of seeking a better signal.

I don't know a lot about the illegal pill business, but assume the pills are distributed in an envelope or plastic bag. Therefore, spilling the remaining pills into the stream and tossing or rinsing the bag would eliminate all the evidence of there being any pills. Only DeOrr's body, and an autopsy, would reveal the presence of these drugs.

If he had been hurt through negligence, or even parental anger (thinking of a dislocated arm, bumped head, leg twisted during diaper change, or similar), the parents might have not realized the seriousness of the injury, and took him to town to look for (appropriate) pain medication or first aid supplies, where he was seen crying in the truck with his Dad. I do not know whether a list has been released detailing every store they visited or every item purchased, and even if they had picked up a bottle of baby aspirin and an Ace Bandage or a bag of ice, it may not have been enough relief, and the child was still in pain.

He may even have hurt himself tripping over his "too-big" cowboy boots, making them sensitive to his Mom. Recall that the mom has ALREADY lost custody of two children and may have been very worried about losing custody of DeOrr as well, if it had been revealed his parents had injured him, or had given him prescription drugs.

If he would not go down for his nap, and had been crying and complaining for a while, the parents might have given him medication to make him sleep. They may just have needed a "break" from the crying, and left him with GGPa and IR. It could even be one of them that gave him a sleeping pill, not realizing the dose would be too much. It could have been enough to cause his death, or just to make him clumsy enough to have fallen into the creek or wandered away before dozing off.

I do not think that Mom and Dad were only gone ten minutes. I think they were gone closer to an hour, which is why Jessica said "about an hour" since she had last seen her son.

Anonymous said...

Buckley, I agree with you. I think that is exactly what is happening.

RRH

Anonymous said...

Vilt is merely doing what everyone else does during national or personal catastrophes-hoping the media will go along with his rendition of what "really" happened and promote his agenda.

A person lurking in the shadows? It COULD happen.
Just like backwards speech guy; you can't prove it didn't.

Notice the connection: One is a federal agent and the other army specialist in idiot crap.

Even on 9/11, by afternoon gas prices had skyrocketed to near $7 a gallon.
I took pictures of the lines of people willing to pay for that lie.

The CNN edition of this tragedy promotes their agenda at everyone's expense, too. Where are the trinkets? Bracelets, T-shirts, keep your child safe camping stuff, and all the theories that more than likely never happened.

Vilt thinks he'll be able to walk all over this little sheriff. It's that simple. They probably see worse all the time in the small towns and do not file charges against people.

Ann Blachly said...

I wonder if the parents and grandfather and other person on the camping trip, simply took the camping trip as a ruse because the little boy was already gone/dead. The trip was to provide a reason for his missing status.

In an October article that stated the campsite was remote made me think the theory of what I just wrote above this sentence. Has this been considered by investigators?

Unknown said...

My mother is a narcissistic P.O.S. She beat the living hell out of us, called us names, constantly talked badly about my father and blamed him and us for her behavior. We lived every single day on eggshells. We were trained by "the look". She took pride in controlling us by "the look". All she had to do was give her pissy scowl and we knew to go away or get beat.
So here's the thing about being raised like that...when the camera comes out it's during the FEW happy times. I'm smiling in my childhood photos because for that moment in time I wasn't being abused. Those moments were the only thing I had to a normal childhood.

Anonymous said...

I think the system failed this kid and there is,a strong chance it was Deorr Kunz Jr. Jmo. :(