Monday, February 29, 2016

Readership Participation: Deception and Romance Question

             
         Linguistic Signals of Deception in Romance

With endless internet advice on lie detection and romance the focus is primarily on the "signs" that are obvious and mostly related to the internet age.  

Does he change his password frequently?
Does he close the computer screen when you walk into the room?
Does he have a second profile on Facebook?

Then, this goes to:

Did he suddenly buy new expensive cologne?

Does he now shower more often?

Did he suddenly do a comb over, buy clothes too young for him and...?

Rather than look to the external signs, misinterpreting a sinus condition for something serious, language, itself, is the best indicator for getting to the truth.  

Yet, before any of this can be discussed, we must do the one thing that our society struggles with:

definitions. 

What one sees in the mirror and discerns by human senses, may be one thing, while a statement may suggest another.  

In the past 7 years, a new "definition" phenomena has arisen:  "The identity."  This new entity trumps "citizen." 

This, new for us, is not new for the world, as the Nuremberg Laws in Germany created a new entity, the "national socialist" which also trumped "citizenship" as an entity. 

Of course, the language must reflect this. 

In the past 7 years, "character" has lost its historic definition and lost meanings has consequences. 

"Where do you stand on Topic C?"

"I am firmly against Topic!  You can count on me protecting you from Topic C if you elect me!"

When the political winds shift and Topic C is no longer "bad" but has gone to "good", the same politician says, 

"I am firmly for Topic C!"

Huh?

"But, that is not where you stood just a few years ago when you campaigned against Topic C!"

"Yes, but my position has evolved."

This was once a man without character, but now it is seen as a man with character. 

So before we get to the specific linguistic indicators of deception we must have a starting point.  

This is a fascinating exercise. 

If interested in participating, please answer one question for the exercise:

"What is cheating?"

Here is how to answer it:

I. Status

Begin with the relationship:

a.  Married
b.  Engaged
c.  Verbally Committed 

II.  Details. 

Next, from a, b or c, (reference standard) tell us specifically what is cheating.  What is "acceptable" and what is "definitely cheating!"

This can include physical descriptions, "he is not cheating if he shakes hands with a woman" or "flirting is fine, as long as..."

You are specifically describing your expectation in the relationship.   Bill Clinton had his own definition of infidelity (he even had his own definition of lying) and the word "is." 

His own nationally televised deception showed habitual, life long deception, and just how good he was, and how he thinks in life.  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky" may have even caused him to pass a polygraph if "sexual relations" was not defined using Clinton's own language.  

Defining what "cheating" is allows for the context or setting to be applied. Without the definition, there will be an inconsistency in "the expected" for you, and will vary widely for us all. 

Perhaps we may even come to a single definition?  


III.  Agreement    

you must add in if this definition is agreed upon by both parties.  If your spouse or partner disagrees, make this clear, too.  

What is fascinating about this is not simply the language of deception, but in our definitions we reveal ourselves, and our expectations. 

It helps research and data base building. 

Bonus Question:

If you are in a generous mood and wish to help our research, would you consider answering a second question?

Bonus Question:  "What is love?"  

Every word you use in your answers is important to analysis.  

104 comments:

Gemini said...

Love is feelings that have evolved? Difficult to describe for sure.

Gemini said...

What are your thoughts on Dr. Luke's comments regarding Kesha?

"I didn’t rape Kesha and I have never had sex with her. Kesha and I were friends for many years and she was like my little sister."

Rella said...

In my marriage, cheating is doing anything that you would not do if our spouse was standing right there. We both agree on this.

Defining love is a lot harder. There are many different loves. I love coffee. I love my husband. Those are different loves. I think you're asking what is love, as it relates to relationships. That's the difficult definition, as I believe love has a different meaning for everyone.

Ali said...

Love is blindness - U2

Love is a battlefield - Pat Benetar

Love is in the air - John Paul Young

Love is the answer - England Dan

What's love got to do with it? - Tina Turner

Anonymous said...

Cheating is doing anything you know would hurt your spouse/committed someone if they were to find out about it.

Love is wanting & doing the best for someone even when you might not want to. Sometimes you may fail and then you feel awful.

Anonymous said...

I had a college professor who was married and wanted me to give him oral sex in the back of his van, explaining that "it's not adultery unless it's intercourse."

Infidelity in a romantic relationship is any sexual contact with anyone outside of the relationship.

Infidelity in a romantic relationship can also manifest as emotional promiscuity, with no physical contact. Yet, it is still a form infidelity.

When you love someone, you want to be with them, and you want to do things for them.

When you love someone, a child, a parent, a partner, a coworker, a friend - - when you love someone, you want to treat them with respect. Respect includes no lying. Deceit is not an expression of love, and constitutes "cheating" no matter what type of relationship it is.

Love means being of one mind. When I love someone, I'm not conflicted about who I want to be with, who I want to share with. Nor am I conflicted about whether or not I want to deceive that person, and whether or not I want to hurt that person.

When you love someone, you want to offer them your support, you want to be sensitive to their needs, you want to get to know them, you want to share things with them.


lynda said...

I am divorced

Cheating is doing anything with anyone that is kept secret from your partner. Whether it's by not mentioning it, lies of omission, or just flat out lying. If it's a secret...you're cheating.

Real love, the kind of love I think God wants us to have, is when 2 people can join together and in their union, manifest the love that God has for us with each other, their children and their community. It also means you are willing to sacrifice for the other if needed. It means protecting and serving the other holding their best interest at heart.

Anonymous said...

In a reciprocal love relationship, there is safety and freedom to let the guard down and be completely honest about thoughts, feelings, etc. Both parties have golden ticket to completely be themselves, knowing that the other offers interest and acceptance. In a real love relationship, people can be candid and spontaneous.

Certain deceptions can be a betrayal of that trust. When I was newly married (divorced now), my husband gave $1,000 to his sister without telling me. I found out later, and it felt like a crushing betrayal (it was), and I would call that another example/form of "cheating".

Anonymous said...

My pets have always offered me their unconditional love. Maybe that's an example of Real Love. They are unwaveringly loyal, they protect me, they are honest with me, they trust me. It's reciprocal; I give them clean house, nice food, fresh water, lots of pets and lots of play. We have a mutual reciprocal love and respect.

Lis said...

Cheating...
Relating at a level of physical or emotional intimacy that is only appropriate for committed partners

Love...
Attachment to another person which includes fondness, respect, affection, belief in, hope for, care for, a desire to be close to, a desire to protect and provide for, a loyal commitment to, wanting the best for

Anonymous said...

My pets are whole-heartedly one-minded in their love and loyalty and devotion to me.

Hey Jude said...

I still can't do this - 'cheating' is different in my ISD to 'less than faithful' or 'unfaithfulness'. The questions would need to be round faithfulness/unfaithfulness rather than cheating. I can't get my head round it. Even if the questions were different, I still might not be able to join in anyway, as that might be, or seem to be, less than faithful, whether Mr Jude knew about it, or not. Well, he wouldn't know, because he doesn't read here, I don't think, and if he did, he probably wouldn't mention it, beyond maybe hoping to not become a subject of my analysis,

We've been married a long time - we don't have, or find a need to have, those types of conversations, which I see more of an early marriage concern. I'm good at seeing off the competition (occupational hazard - his position attracts adoring females).

We've both been described as 'flirts', by some of our friends, and not-friends (not all mutual, and not said to us). Well, some people do like to flatter themselves; our life involves a fair few social events, his a lot more than mine, with the accompanying expectation of friendliness, which those with fewer social graces are sometimes apt to misread. We Christians do like to greet each other with a holy kiss - it's not my, or his problem, if other people see and have something else on their mind. :)

I like to keep the distinction between private and secret. I would think it a bit hideous to have probed, or to probe and seek to intrude upon, private thoughts, fantasies, the hidden lives we all have, married or not, acknowledged or not. The way in which some couples interrogate and harangue one another about everything, even the private life of the mind, seems like something out of hell, to me - as though another could be almost 'owned' - I find that scary.

Anonymous said...

Love is the glue that holds the world together.

lynda said...

Big difference in my lingo between private and a secret. My toothbrush is private. Texting a secretary after hours to see what she's doing would be a secret.

Anonymous said...

Me again ^^^

I love my spouse, my children, my parents & siblings... But thinking about it with ruthless honesty, if it came to a reasoned choice & I had to decide "me or them"-- my life for their's -- it would only be my kids. Putting aside impulsive actions like jumping in front of someone I loved to shield them from a potentially deadly assault (which has thankfully never happened so I don't know how I would react), no matter how deep my love is for anyone else...It would be an anquished decision & possibly one that would kill me later with self-loathing, but I would only consciencely CHOOSE to die in place of my kids.

I guess this proves Peter's assertion that a mother's bond to a child is the strongest. No need to feel guilty even though I wouldn't choose to die for anyone else even though I love them, yes?

Love. It's so damn complicated.

Rella said...

Without a moment's hesitation I would lay down my life if it meant my children lived.

Anonymous said...

OT - http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/02/kunz-private-investigator-issues/

PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR ISSUES STATEMENT REGARDING DEORR KUNZ, JR.
LOCAL 0 Updated at 6:17 pm, February 29th, 2016 By: EastIdahoNews.com staff
SHARE THIS STORYDeorr Kunz
NEDERLAND, Texas -– This afternoon Senior Civil Investigator Philip R. Klein, a private investigator working on the DeOrr Kunz, Jr. case, issued a statement to EastIdahoNews.com regarding his findings in the case.

At this time no one has been arrested or charged with any crime in relation to the disappearance of DeOrr Kunz Jr.

The statement is below:

“In November of 2015 KIC Texas accepted the case of the missing child Deorr Kunz, Jr., who went missing from a camp ground near Leadore, Idaho in July of 2015. There has been much speculation by the public, family members and the press regarding this young child’s disappearance. Today we announce to the public and media the closing of phase three of our case and our conclusions to date. The following are our conclusions regarding the case :

1) The conclusion by the civil investigation team of “what happened” to DeOrr Kunz, Jr. is officially death by accident/homicide.

2) The following persons are “persons of interest / suspects with direct knowledge.”

Vernal DeOrr Kunz
Jessica Mitchell
Robert “Bob” Walton
3) The investigation continues regarding Isaac Reinwand – as he has begun to cooperate with Investigators and has given a further statement. Those claims and proffers are being evaluated at this time.

The final phase of our investigation will be recovery. We believe through evidence and witness statements we will be able to recover a body in this case.

We continue to agree with Sheriff Bowerman and his statements of this past week as we too have had to deal with multiple stories and changes in facts by some of the witnesses whom were on the mountain during the timeline of events.

We further agree with the law enforcement teams from around the United States that are involved in this case – that both Vernal Kunz and Jessica Mitchell know what happened on that mountain in July of 2015.

We want the public to know that we believe through evidence the family members of Kunz, Mitchell and Walton ARE NOT involved – however – we believe they are too close to their family members and are in denial. The evidence is very clear.

haddaway said...

What is love?

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Anonymous said...

To me, cheating depends on what both people in the relationship agree upon. If they have an open relationship then there is never any cheating or infidelity in that relationship. People outside of the relationship may make accusations against one or both of the people in an open relationship, unfairly and unwarranted.

Anonymous said...

OT - http://m.localnews8.com/news/interview-with-private-investigator-phillip-klein-on-deorr-kunz-investigation/38264866
This is the full, unedited interview with private investigator Phillip Klein on the state of the DeOrr Kunz, Jr. investigation. All of the opinions on the case are solely those of Klein.

lynda said...

Anon @ 11:32
WOW! WOW! WOW! Hooray! So Isaac Reinwald sang like a canary! I am soooo happy that these parents look like they are going DOWN!

Hey Jude said...

I think of my toothbrush as personal rather than private, though I wouldn't be happy if someone else mistook it for theirs. :)

For us, there is no out of hours, as such; all texts are private, though it would not be an issue if he were to have my phone for a day, or me his - we would not read one another's texts, anyway. If accidentally a text or letter is read, it is a case of, 'oh sorry, that's your phone/text or letter.'

When we first moved here, it had been arranged that all the work and family mail was delivered to Mr Jude's office (next to the house, though it's variable, sometimes he prefers to work at home) which stressed me out, as it took weeks to get the mail properly directed. I don't like for anyone else to handle my mail - that's private. His PA wouldn't open my mail unless by error, but that wasn't the point - it's still private, as is where it might have come from, which is sometimes on the outside of the envelope. If I have a medical appointment, say, or a letter from a friend, or an invoice, that's my business. I might have made mention of any of those things in passing, but I do like to have the choice, and the mail. I vented rather, which might have seemed an over-reaction, but I find it difficult when my personal life, or the family's lives, are unnecessarily assumed into Mr Jude's professional life.

I don't know some of the people in Mr Jude's contact list - he doesn't know some of mine; we tend only to compare when it comes to working out who should be sending Christmas cards to whom, or wondering who someone is who has sent one - in addition to the shared life, interests, and mutual friends, we have other interests and friends.

Hey Jude said...

Continued -
I can be hyper-sensitive about privacy - that's a result of having felt, sometimes through the years, that my life, and those of my kids as they grew up, were public property. That is due to there always having been an overlap between Mr Jude's personal and professional lives; our current home has 'public' rooms (they are only public in the sense that they are those designated for events and guests, and so the cost of maintaining them is not all ours). I like that, as, to me, a home is for sharing - it's good to have visitors and guests, be they personal or professional. In one sense, we are almost always 'in role' at home, so psychologically it often seems there is no real 'private' home life (which has been so for all my adult life). I do not know how that might feel or if I would like it - the closest I come to that is in maintaining my own life, friends, and interests, so I tend to perhaps overly guard them. If Mr Jude sometimes does not know who, what, or when (he'll almost always know if there's also a where), it is only for want of asking what I am up to now - mostly he doesn't; he respects that I like and need my own life and space, and vice versa. If unknown worlds are likely to overlap, well, 'Did I mention this or that?' It works for us. :)

We do also have our own private home, but there is hardly time to be in it - I only go there every couple of months, to check it's okay and to dust - I might spend a few hours there imagining that's really my home, though the reality is that I have not yet been able to spend a single night there, though it is only an hour away. This house takes some running, there are never enough hours in the day (or night). I think it's fair to say that my life is a privilege for which I'm not always grateful.

Lol - I suspect Peter will think I am just going off on tangents.


Hey Jude said...

What is love? I think this is the best definition, worth aspiring to:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

(Some call that 'The Fool's Charter')

This is always a hopeful one:
'Love covers a multitude of sins' :)

Not so great, but as a friend once put it, though not in the context of marriage or friendship, 'Love is not enough'

What my own words might be, still thinking about that; I used to tell my kids when they were little, and even when they were not so little, 'I love you all the everything' - it may not make much grammatical sense, but grammar isn't everything. :)

Anonymous said...

Love provides clear vision - When I love someone, I am finally seeing them clearly. Love overlooks all, and recognizes only what is real.

Anonymous said...

Love is unconditional forgiveness and acceptance. Love is taking what others say in the best possible way.

Lisa21222 said...

OT (PLEASE READ!)
I live in a neighborhood (a few blocks from "GoFundMe Julie Baker") where there is a LOT of drama going on at the moment over a "he said - she said" stalking accusation.
It has gone so far that our small neighborhood social network of 200 or so members has been asked to watch out for the "harasser" near the vehicle or on the property of the "harassed" and report to the police if we see him.
Apparently some of his "tactics" have involved "slashing her tires" and "reporting her vehicle abandoned so it would be impounded", and she recently emblazoned her rather large van with three colors of paint with the apparent intention of creating a rolling billboard about the situation. The sides of the vehicle have sheets of printed emails, photocopies of hand-written notes, and so forth, presumably meant to prove her"case".
I asked that the person who originally posted the notice on the social network to provide a description or photo of the harasser and/or his vehicle so we would know what to be watching FOR, and have heard nothing back after 24 hours.
In the interim, I did a little checking on them both, online. She seems to have a history of filing suits for theft, harassment, domestic violence, and assault, while (other than her allegations) he seems to have a clean record.
Last night, after work, I went to the van where it was parked on the street. I noticed that his address, though from the number in the land records would appear to be a block from hers, is actually directly across the street, and the van, with all sorts of "graffiti-esque" remarks is actually parked in front of HIS house, and not her own. I have a high resolution camera on my phone, so i quickly snapped photos of every document she was presenting to the public, then went home and read everything.
Is there someone here who would care to venture an opinion? I have photos of all the posted documents and the painted up van, and will provide everything to anyone who wants to see it as it was all publicly posted (though some of it seems personal).
I am concerned this is a "fake hate" case, and, at the least, it seems the social network is not the place to vilify him, since he is also a neighbor and was never asked for his input. Perhaps he prefers to take the high ground and not be dragged into this.
I do not know either party, although I live within a block of both.

Anonymous said...

That's a nice write up on the missing Kunz boy. The PI and et al came to the only conclusion available. At least when the funding ended, the theories ended as well. Now that they have an attorney, the allegations end, too. Lol!

Wonder how much of their funds they will use to "recover" the body? Or, will "mixed" media be employed to force someone into a confession?

Whaddayasay said...

While watching TV last night, my boyfriend (I have known him more than 30 years, living together for 2, he does not believe in the government's interference in marriage - i.e. licenses - so that will never happen, but we consider our relationship "permanent") and he volunteered that if he had to choose to let many people die to save me, he would NOT do it. I am not really offended, as it is a logical way to think... the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

That said, I would have a hard time allowing my daughter to die in order to "save the world."

Nanaof4 said...

Cheating is breaking the bounds of a commitment both emotional, physical. If my husband or I would began a relationship that hurt the other person or weakened our relationship it is cheating. Cheatingis not just towards the other person, but toward the commitment made to that person.

Love is both physical and emotional. True love goes beyond the physical and develops an emotional bond with another person. It encompasses a friendship and history that goes beyond single-minded thinking. Two people become one as their lives are entertwined and the idea of living without the other is unthinkable. Once physical love (attraction) is established, the emotional love grows and a commitment to that person is made. Love is a commitment that you make to care and provide for the emotional wellbeing and physical wellbeing of the other person. It is putting that person before selfish desires. With each person putting the other first, both parties win. Love must be nurtured. It is a commitment to be there for the other person, to want their happiness and to understand that the other person makes you whole.

Xian Janeway said...

Off Topic, but I hope Peter pounces on it: http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-refugees-20160301-story.html

Refugees buy a one-way ticket back to Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Love exists outside of the constrictions of space and time. Love is the greatest power in the Universe. Love is real, permanent, cannot be destroyed.

ima.grandma said...

married ~ 54 years

As our union has grown and deepened, it has lit up some parts of our souls and dimmed others — but our love has reached maturity and bound us on a spiritually evolved level.

This durable alignment enables us to detect trouble or pain in each other when no else can. We are willing and able to make sacrifices for each other and for our family. Our desire to alleviate suffering in each other is virtually guaranteed to triumph over any adversity.

Love is willing compromise—the essence of all successful long-term relationships.


I'll need to think about the cheating question.

Anonymous said...

Here within lies the problem of the twinning and placing one's focus on guarding the anuses of federal agents offspring (not to mention the problem with Texans in general): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/03/01/impostor-sold-texas-home-where-mans-remains-were-found-police-say/

Anonymous said...

What is Cheating?

I am married. My husband and I agreed that our definition of cheating is doing/saying/touching/etc. another person anything that would make us uncomfortable; or doing/saying/touching/etc. anything that the person feels should be kept secret. For example, if I were to have lunch with a male colleague and kept it secret, my husband might think I am cheating. If my husband elected to attend a non-required fancy, upscale dinner restaurant with a female colleague while on business travel in Las Vegas and purposely did not tell me, I might think he was cheating. If my husband placed his hand on the small part of a woman's back and whispered something in her ear, in front of me or behind my back, I might think he was cheating or at least considering it.

However, when my husband says hello to his female friends with a hug and small kiss on the cheek, I do not think he is cheating. He feels the same thing when I meet up with male friends with a small kiss on the cheek and a hug. It is something we have always done with friends, even before we met and started dating.

-KC

Anonymous said...

And, here within lies the rationale why podunkies shouldn't join forces with Texans and should keep their hands off medical practices:http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/osama-bin-laden-feared-wife%e2%80%99s-tooth-held-a-tracking-device/ar-BBqcx3S?ocid=spartandhp

tania cadogan said...

Being single and having been so for 19 years since i last dated, i think love is what you make of it and who you make it with that makes both of you happy being with the other.
Every relationship is unique, the same as every person is unique.
What works for one couple may not work for another, what one couple considers cheating may be acceptable to another.
Love is accepting the other person for who they are, the good, the bad and even the indifferent, coming to a mutual compromise on the every day issues of living as a couple, raising kids and all the daily minutiae that life entails.
Love is being honest with each other, trusting each other to do what is right by all, having fun, enjoying the quiet companionship and the raucous chaos.

Love is understanding,caring,sharing,trusting,enjoying,exploring,patience,listening and talking to that special someone without whom you feel incomplete.

When you are apart, you miss their smile, their voice, their smell, their presence.
When you are togeather, especially after many years of marriage, the spark is still there, you become almost as one, finishing each others sentences, laughing at old stories and jokes you have heard a thousand times, the little knowing looks, the quiet smiles, the hugs and kisses,the comfortable familiarity and not caring who sees the love you share, the life force you share.

If you wouldn't do something with someone in front of your partner/family friends then why is there the need to deceive(surprise parties excluded)

Big hugs all round

ima.grandma said...

I will add to Hob's comment:
If you wouldn't do something with someone in front of your partner/family friends then why ...

my definition:
cheating: an action (if known/seen/heard) harming the other, emotionally or spiritually.

if not known/seen/heard ~ that's why we have integrity and a conscience. it's still cheating.

ima.grandma said...

Though I listed my opinion, it has been a topic of both intellectual and emotional debates over our many years.

We were both quite the lookers and free-thinkers back in our day.

~ if I breathe slowly, smile and open my mind ~ I can still remember ...

ima.grandma said...

I'm this far in ~ I'll share an example of cheating in my marriage.

Once upon a time ago, long long ago, in a far away land, ima.grandma and ima.grandpa quickly grew up together ~ after four babies in five years came along. I found myself alone with the kids so often, I begin to keep a journal. Initially it was a survival technique to keep myself from locking myself in the closet waiting for ima.grandpa to come home and help with four little ones. It evolved into a release for self-expression. I kept it private and in a special place for years.

There came a time I became suspicious my journals had been moved - ever so slightly but I'm very observant. I placed a strand of my hair just inside where my secret place would be opened. I was devastated to find it moved - more than once. I confronted ima.grandpa and he confessed. He said he did it because I had quit talking to him as much and he wanted to know what I was thinking. This devastated my sense of self and valuation of privacy. I threw away all those journals. He cheated me out of that! and dearly paid, don't you worry...ima.grandma is full of forgiveness but forgetfulness is not yet a characteristic of mine.

I write about this because I am affected to this day. I've continued to write of course and hope to always but I destroy them once they have served their purpose. The fear of invasion looms still. You are right Peter. Definition is critical.

John mcgowan said...

To even begin to quantify. In my opinion, is infinite.

To list what "cheating" is, or my, "subjective dictionary" of said word. Or a derivative thereof , is an open, never ending answer / conclusion, or result (for want of a better words). Its Infinite, to each individual.

In my opinion. The questions posed, are loaded.

Anonymous said...

John 6:11 - I am too naive or dense (stupid) to understand why you took the questions "what is cheating" and "what is love" as loaded questions. I found it so refreshing to hear anyone, ANYONE, ask "What is love?" on a public forum, and the question of "what is cheating" was also so welcome. I have a feeling you probably see an agenda which I don't see, in the questions, so I do respect your thoughts on it.

John mcgowan said...

Anonymous said...

6:44 PM

"I have a feeling you probably see an agenda which I don't see, in the questions, so I do respect your thoughts on it."

Hi

I don't see "an agenda"

I think that (maybe it's my lockdown repression has been triggered and unhappy memories have raised their ugly head, and i feel uncomfortable disclosing sadness, i don't know. Hahaha, obviously it has :/)

I'm sorry, i didn't mean to come across bolshoi and arrogant.

A word, a smell, a sound, a noise. Bang! I'm right back there (a young boy!) I now realise while writing this why i responded like i did.

I'm sorry

Love???

ima.grandma said...

Peter did present loaded questions with the potential to lead us down multiple rabbit holes. They are massive questions and difficult to define as experiences will differ greatly from one person to the next.

I don't know much about cheating but what I do know is love is not just about the feeling of love towards a partner, the love you feel for your child or the love you have for a possession or a passion. It is something you practice for your entire life. It fades, it re-establishes itself, it grows and it may be present in your life one day, but gone the next. 

ima.grandma said...

I'll go a step farther and say this is the point of the whole exercise.

Anonymous said...

This is cute-rabbit holes headed for Idaho: http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/03/kunz-investigator-jessica-mitchell-knows-where-deorrs-body-is/

The investigator claims he interviewed 150 witnesses! WTF? I thought they were basically alone in the wilderness! He goes even further to state they should leave Idaho and come to Texas to escape the paranoia! Why? Texas will come to them!

I am really concerned about the potatoes...all eight of them.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous 8:02pm

Jessica herself has told investigators on our team she knows where the body is but she will not go all the way and finish her story.

... in our interviews with the grandfather, he did admit to investigators that he believes there was an accident. He will not go all the way and tell the complete truth at this time.

elf said...

What is cheating? Anything a person has to lie about or sneak around to do. Whether you're cheating on a spouse or lover with another person physically or emotionally or cheating on you're diet by having a calorie filled snack or you're cheating on a test; you will have to sneak and lie.
What is love? Love is difficult lol it's difficult to define. It's how I feel when I'm with my kids, all pure and bright. It's the flutter in my tummy when my boyfriend says my name or holds my hand when we're watching t.v. Love is my mom's cool hand on my forehead to check for fever when I was little.

Hey Jude said...

Those are good points, John - and it's interesting you find I triggering. This is some of my difficulty, too. I'd like to try to articulate more clearly what it looks like in my personal subjective dictionary - more like this than that, sort of thing, and why.

--

I had it instilled into me as a child, that cheating was wrong. My fathe took my early mistakes in learning as cheating - he taught me chess when I was five. He could be impatient, and I was sensitive - chess takes a while to learn and to remember, but it only takes an instant to learn what it is like to be misjudged. I did not 'cheat' intentionally, and I was mortified. Still am, by the sounds of it... :)

All the men in my family enjoyed and took games seriously - chess, rummy, cribbage, draughts, dominoes, darts - for my father, chess and cards, and when I was about seven, he also introduced Monopoly, which I did not enjoy so much as it was spun out from afternoon into evening, till I was at the point of exhaustion, not to mention despair at being virtually bankrupt, as I hardly ever was able to buy Mayfair or Park Lane (little changes...) - there was no giving up, leaving the game, or falling to sleep over the board, it had to be played till a winner could be declared. Still, I loved to be allowed to play, and Saturday afternoons were sometimes spent that way; board and card games were an adult activity in which children were sometimes included, rather than a children's activity in which the adults sometimes dutifully joined in - it was a serious business, cheating was unthinkable.

So, for me, 'cheating' has early (and later) strong associations with games, and homework (another mortifying anecdote there sometime), and elbowing an opponent near the finishing line (no anecdote). It's a word from childhood, which, to my mind, does not quite fit adult situations, though I am able to see it in other ways, too - as in the taking of credit for another's work or ideas, undermining, usurping, displacing, taking without giving, deliberate misrepresentation of self or another - exploiting people and situations; all those are specific, whilst also more loosely coming under the vaguer heading of 'cheating' - almost always I think there is a better closer word than 'cheating'. Semantics, maybe - but I do more easily associate the word with childish misdemeanour and games rather than with marital failings. I can be pretty obtuse, at times, but my attempt to 'unpack' cheating is locking me into bad chess games. :-/

Hey Jude said...

Making lots of edits to your comments before submitting them - that's cheating, too. Lol. Well, they would go on for ever if I did not.

As it is, I'm half-expecting, and a bit disappointed, that ABB has not yet come along to tell me to stop going on, FGS, and to get it into my thick skull, what cheating is, with an absolute definition, which includes cussing, God, and possibly hell. :-D.

foodiefoodnerd said...

Quoting one of a million random Anonymous:
"The investigator claims he interviewed 150 witnesses! WTF? I thought they were basically alone in the wilderness!"
~~~~

In his defense, after an afternoon interviewing these two, wouldn't you feel like you'd spoken with at least 150 different people? :^D

foodiefoodnerd said...

Quoting ima.grandma:
"This devastated my sense of self and valuation of privacy. I threw away all those journals. He cheated me out of that."

"He said he did it because I had quit talking to him as much and he wanted to know what I was thinking."
~~~~
So he felt like you had cheated him by hiding that part of you from him. Including the opportunity to be your partner, try to take some of your kid overload.

Obviously you had and have every right to feel violated by this! But it's ironic that you both probably felt cheated and misunderstood at the same time.

Peter Hyatt said...

The language reveals something few understand and it is something I may do an article on:

"shock"

When one did not know and was in a good relationship, the impact can be life long.

The most acute damage done is in the shock which is why to be classified in this way, it must come without warning and while the innocent party believed the relationship to be very close.

This is where suicide, suicidal ideation, substance abuse, health issues, depression and so much more, come into play. It is described in very specific language including that the innocent feels worthless, and that memories in life are all tainted.

Research from it, however, has been invaluable in terms of coping.

Although the cheating may be widespread, the few who truly had no warning signs nor inclination, and believed that their relationship was loving, supportive,...close,
"really good" and so on,

are the most devastated.

some report recovering after years, but never fully to the place of trust, ever again.

I know that millions are made saying otherwise, but some of the "cures" offered for sale are worse than the causes.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous said...
My pets are whole-heartedly one-minded in their love and loyalty and devotion to me.
February 29, 2016 at 6:03 PM


I devote an entire chapter to "pets" in the Advanced Course.

There are those who love animals more than humans.

Peter

Bobcat said...

"What is cheating?"

a. Married

Cheating is doing things that result in breaking marriage vows.

My spouse and I promised to be "true" to each other.

To me, being "true" means being honest. Not lying to each other. Being best friends and confidants. Our other friendships don't outweigh our marital relationship - even if those friendships go back farther in our lives than our marriage. This has not been a problem because everyone gets along - we are all very compatible and enjoy our friendships-by-marriage! We have each other's backs and are each other's #1. No one need bother trying to get between us because it will not happen.

Acceptable:
Hugging and quickly kissing hello/goodbye to old friends.
Platonic correspondence.
Feelings of infatuation toward a nonspouse. I excuse these because sometimes these feelings just pop up in life - you can't wish them away, but they are there. But you do not need to act on them and they will fade away over time. Enjoy the warm fuzzies and singing birds until they pass.

Definitely Cheating:
Any physical contact or correspondence that you wouldn't want your spouse to see or be aware of.

Hey Jude said...

Those who love animals over their own kids, even - it can't do much for the self-esteem, to grow up knowing you are playing second, third or fourth fiddle to the family dogs or cats.

Hey Jude said...

On correspondence: Mr Jude sometimes posts my letters to my confessor. I would probably have died of embarrassment, on occasion over the years, if he had read them. He know that as well as I do. He could easily open, read, or not post the letters, but I know he wouldn't - on principle, and because he values my sanity as much as I do. It's private, but it's not a secret. I write some regrettable crap at times, for sure - sometimes I hope it will go straight through the shredder unread.

I find difficulty in expressing my thoughts in speech, or sustaining some types of conversation - I tend to write what there's no space or place for in my exterior life, and what there shouldn't be space or place for in my interior life (but I'm no saint). I haven't written one in a while - I think I can't be honest enough, and I lie too often by omission. I like to think I'm honest, but I'm well deluded at times. I can also be quite persuasive, so that's not the greatest combination. Too easy to fool oneself - 'the heart is deceitful above all things'.

For me, it would not be appropriate to say everything which is on my mind to Mr Jude - it would be too easy to let selfishness, anger or other destructive elements in, but I still need to deal with them somehow when they arise, and to find a neutral ear and a kind response, or none, depending on what is judged appropriate at the time. A release, sanity valve, the non-judgemental ear - some of us need that. If I had to consider that 'cheating' I'd be unbearable.

Somehow, I think a set of definitions upon which all can agree is unlikely. :)

Bobcat said...

Hey Jude:
"Somehow, I think a set of definitions upon which all can agree is unlikely. :)"

--------------
I agree - too many variables!

Regarding correspondence and private writing. I don't think confessional or vent-release type writing is cheating. I understand the need to get stuff out onto paper, and the wish for privacy, even from a spouse.

What would be cheating, would be flirtatious and teasing correspondence with real people - which may be misinterpreted as an invitation to adultery. It's playing with fire.

--------------------
Is anonymous cybersex cheating?


Hey Jude said...

I'd like to know why some people love animals more than humans. Do they maybe have difficulty in forming meaningful relationships with people, maybe have had experiences which made them particularly distrustful or rejecting of others? Some maybe are just solitary souls who like a dog or cat as an easy pleasant companion who doesn't answer back.

It's weird to know couples who (really) prefer their dogs to their kids, where the dogs are always given priority, and life and conversation revolves around the dogs - people who discuss their dogs rather than their kids, and who make substitute kids of them even when there are actual kids...maybe they are or were disappointed with the kids. I knew someone who had all boys, but longed for a girl - when there was no girl, she lavished all the attention on a female puppy, then another. It's sad.

I love my dogs, but they are dogs - sort of. :)

Hey Jude said...

Bobcat - that's a relief, I was verging towards paranoia there...

Yes, cybersex with anyone but your partner would be blutty outrageous :) If there is interaction, and a real person there, it would have to be a form of adultery, (or unfaithfulness if in a relationship but not married), despite no physical contact, it would be real enough, as would the intention.

newhereandlearning said...

Love is a feeling of extreme tenderness towards another, seeing God in another person.

newhereandlearning said...

I disagree with those who state that one is not conflicted when one loves. One must absolutely be conflicted to feel "love" crush the ego, otherwise it is nothing more than following the ego's whims.

Hey Jude said...

PS - I don't do flirtatious or teasing correspondence. Perhaps that should be 'no longer' because there was a blip.

Example of typical correspondence: I spent last New Year's Eve emailing photos of my extensive yet accidental cutlery collection to an old friend abroad. He liked the fish knives and forks - I said we don't use them - they are out of fashion here these days - passé. I don't remember who brought up the subject of cutlery, I just noted we have too much (inherited - what can you do?) when the excitement of the cutlery was over, he sent me a YouTube link of a choir singing something Christmassy, which I said I liked, but didn't listen to all through. That's about average - sometimes I send dolls house photos rather than cutlery, though I don't think he's had the dolls house photos.

--
I DID have an email exchange which grew flirtatious - he seemed to take it seriously, while I found it amusing. Not good, no - it was a long time ago. The guy was top-drawer and politically connected, with ambitions. After a time he began to panic and told me that if I disclosed our conversation he could have me killed as easily as Tony Blair had Jill Dando killed. I said that was unnecessary, as was his allegation against the PM, plus not very gentlemanly. A few months later, and at intervals after that, I emailed him for a non-flirtatious conversation (it seemed morally advisable to keep his OTT death threat on his mind - well, he can't behave like that just because he's privileged, sort of thing) and it was so convivial, as though he never had threatened to have me killed. One time he was doing a charity fund raiser, so I sent him a hundred pounds. I don't know if he ever did it, or if I should even now enquire and ask for a refund, if not - that would seem churlish by now, and probably best to let sleeping dogs lie. The last I heard, he had married a lawyer - good job, in case he ever needs one, if he still is acting like that.

It's weird, because I still I liked him, despite the death threat. I gave up emailing him after a few years, because even would be assassins deserve mercy. Still, if I'm ever found with a bullet through my head, it won't have been put there by Barry George ... Not very likely - discretion is mine (she said on a public forum). Probably he had just had a few too many drinks - no hard feelings. I don't think... I did not take it too seriously. I had to weigh up if I should contact the police or not - if I had, it would have been horrendous for him - did I want to do that to him? No. Plus the correspondence might have become public - lose, lose, all round, so I deleted it.

Well, that was a good lesson. It was interesting how it escalated - more him than me. That's not the only reason why I don't do flirtatious correspondence - I'm not interested, or available - that was accidental, anyway, and as I recall, instigated by him - I might be mistaken - it was a long time ago. It was only mildly flirtatious, nothing too much to write home about. Though I did - confessor=home for the purposes of. I don't recall if he even mentioned it - I think it tends to be a case that the embarrassment of relating whatever it is tends to prevent repetition. Retrospectively, things don't seem so terrible to relate, but when something is recent or ongoing, there is shame in the telling. Good for the soul, it helps keep things in order. :)

I'll probably delete this one later. Sometimes it's cathartic to write things, but they are not always much relevant to the blog - self-indulgent rambling.




ima.grandma said...

Yes foodie. When I think about it, I tense up. The experience hinders my creativity. I'll begin to write, suddenly feel anxious and shut down. I've even began journals with a preface addressing anyone reading to please respect my privacy. This happened 35 years ago and it feels like yesterday when my mind reflects. The life of violation is very long.

Hey Jude said...

Some people, will see what they will believe to be an embedded confession in there, that he never did make the threat. He did. Consider this; I did not believe the threat was genuine - in that sense he never did make a genuine threat - the threat was made, but he had no intention of acting on it. He was worried about the conversation and was trying to intimidate me - also, he still wanted to impress me - thus framing it with 'inside information' about the murder of Jill Dando. I still think it was a scurrilous accusation, perhaps current round Westminster at the time - I also believe Barry George was framed, but not on account of, or at the behest of, the then British PM.

I'm going away for a bit now - I know it sound as if I am in fantasy crazy land.

Hey Jude said...

I know where you are coming from, ima grandma - I'm so protective of my privacy, it seems like an illness. Someone once opened and read my mail to me. That also, was a long time ago - it was the patriarchal norm, for them. They did not even know it was illegal to open someone else's personal mail. I still shudder at the remembrance of it.

Nic said...

p/w = static
computer = open
FB profile = only one (happens to also be business)

cologne = deodorant
shower= habitual
hair = he asks me to cut (per the razor/buzz cut thing he purchased for me to use)


I need to research “Topic C” = ?

Regardless if you’re dating, engaged or married, cheating is behaviour that ends a mutually exclusive/intimate relationship when found out. Cheating is what one says or does that they wouldn’t otherwise say or do if in the presence of their partner or spouse because they know it is inappropriate, crosses the line or would hurt [them]. Cheating is undermining the trust and/or the confidence of their partner or spouse (consequence if they found out,) and then deflecting/blowing off said behaviour when challenged, or worse blaming their partner’s/spouse’s response as overreacting/jealous/paranoid, or demanding they get “over it". Cheating inhibits the healthy evolution of intimacy. Cheating puts a “best before date” on a relationship. Cheating is when the intention of the behaviour is to flatter the interloper so that the payoff is to have their own ego stroked, ergo opening the door to other possibilities/opportunities outside of the alpha commitment.

Acceptable = i.e., *business* communication (calling/texting preferably on a work account) that you’ll be late for work/meeting (with the person you’re meeting with/admin to communicate on your behalf) confirming travel (arranged by admin/travel,) is fine. Grabbing java for *everyone* is fine. Treating just one person over and over, when others work in the same office, not so much. Dinner whether in town our out of town, is a no-no. After work is family time even if it is Skyping from a hotel room. Lifelong friend communicating re parents, siblings, organizing get togethers = fine. Taking daughter to ballet and being chatted up by recently single mom in full make up at 8:30 AM Sat morning when everyone else is in sweat pants and scrunchies not okay. (Dad didn’t take daughter to ballet anymore. Like at all. Not with “Nic” or without. “Where’s Mr. Nic???” “I’m here today.” “But where is he??” “Not here.” (Today or ever.) )

When my husband and I started dating he took me skiing one afternoon to a hill his dad skied. I had already met his sister and mom (an agoraphobic). The purpose of the afternoon was to introduce me to his dad and, ta-da! “social friend”. At that point the social friend had been his mistress for 20+ years. My husband curiously watched me react. He said his parents had “an arrangement”. I informed my husband we would never have “an arrangement”. He agreed we wouldn’t be “like them” and made excuses for his dad’s behaviour as his mom’s fault (agoraphobia). I called b.s.. Still do. Sixteen years later and he (still) knows if he were to suddenly take a page out of his dad’s book, I wouldn’t be “Pat” sitting in a living room all the while waiting for my husband to come home. He’d be bank rolling my new lifestyle.

Love is entrusting your soft underbelly and knowing it will be protected. Love is not being afraid to dream.

ima.grandma said...

Nic you're 'dead on the money'

"Cheating puts a 'best before date' on a relationship."

Hey Jude said...

I'd be more than a bit paranoid if I kept tabs, though I do get a bit snotty about dinner if I'm not invited (usually I am) - that's more over other people's bad manners than jealously, though - dinner should be family time, so if you are only inviting him, who's cooking my dinner, and why don't you care? Lol. On the plus side, I do like a nice cheese sandwich and an hour or ten online. Meh.

---

To my mind, a lot of the rules which are important to many of the posters here are too strict - so strict, it's scary, and borders on suffocation. If I was a guy, I might be afraid to move, or I'd smile sweetly, and say 'yes, of course I think that, dear' - rolling eyes in my imagination, and resenting that my balls, real or metaphorical, seemed to be in a vice. Sometimes it shows in a man's face that the grip on him is too tight. Love should posses yet without being possessive. I think it's mostly a younger person thing - the ruled man will likely flee before he grows old, unless he still needs a mother.

This may be my background, the overlap of personal and professional, and no out of hours - but as a woman, I find all these rules stultifying; men I think, need more autonomy to feel they are regarded as men rather than boys. It's subjective, of course. I don't think there are too many men posting their rules of marriage and definitions of 'cheating'. It seems like there maybe is an expectation that a man might cheat so rules are necessary. Or maybe some have only now articulated unspoken rules in order to participate. I don't know_ except it's very interesting.

Nic said...

Hey Jude, I think [it's] one of the reasons it takes a long while for people to find the "right one" for them to settle down with. I do see your point and maybe that is the reason the divorce statistics are high and why the majority of participants on dating sites are married. By the time people get married, people pretty much know what bothers their mate and what doesn't and so they just don't go [there], when enables freedom to "roam". i.e.,, girls'/boys' weekends. Much of what people are writing is about an unknown, not a known.

I will say, emphatically, that there is a definite line between work relationships and personal relationships, and t's why even businesses frown on fraternizing with your colleague, or why if there is an evolution beyond "just business", they are immediately separated. The fallout of a failed personal relationship affects colleague's productive, and ultimately the bottom line. It adds a flavour of drama that has to be managed on some level which isn't fair to anyone they have to work with. Personally, I don't like businesses organizing work "dinners" or after hour (Christmas) parties, unless the spouses are invited to attend. They can say it's "optional", but it puts a competitive pressure on married employees to go when the single employees are free to schmooze with the bosses, become the next up for promotion/opportunity. As much as employers don't like their time being wasted, I think it's unfair for the employer to turn around in the same breath put that kind of pressure on a family.

Nic said...

ima.grandma, I shared my first apartment with a high school friend. I discovered "someone" had been rummaging through my desk. My journal had a page torn out of it. Neither my roomie or her boyfriend fessed up to doing it. I threw out every diary and journal I had and have never kept another one.

ima.grandma said...

Thank you Nic for generously sharing. 

I've come to believe the reason I am guarded against invasion of personal privacy is on me. I do share in the responsibility of why I feel the way I do.

As all private thoughts are perceptual, I correlate them to daydreams. I found my journaling to be 'organized daydreaming'. My journals offered an insight into my personality, motives, fears and concerns. By studying their nature and content, writing provided a pathway to recognizing and understanding  my spontaneous thoughts.

Though sometimes used to flatten my response to emotional situations in the real world, writing also made me feel vibrant, aware and engaged.

To have this sense of need and comfort for personal analysis taken away was a catalyst to self-discovery. I simply didn't want anyone to know the real me but me. Selfish? Probably but I have right to eminent domain.

ima.grandma said...

Recollections and reflections 

The genesis of my desire for personal privacy, space and safety was born from where? Of course ~ childhood and adolescent abuse.

Nic said...

I simply didn't want anyone to know the real me but me. Selfish?

I don’t think so. I don’t believe someone automatically gets to “live in your head”, when you marry them. If everyone was entitled to know what we thought or what our “inside voice” was saying, we’d all have word bubbles above our head. :0)

ima.grandma said...

Good energy and gratitude coming your way Nic. I appreciate your prosocial response. It helps me feel heard. Win-Win. Thank you.

ima.grandma said...

Besides, I couldn't charge enough for the rent to live in my head. It's priceless to me and me alone.

Hey Jude said...

Nic, thanks for your response - it's interesting, and on consideration I see that what applies in the corporate and business world, and in the public sector, and which sounds conducive to less likelihood of hassle or incursion, wouldn't always do, or work, in our world - it's just different, and pretty relaxed. The more I think about it, the more I realise that our personal lives, and his professional life, don't merely overlap, in some ways they are inextricably bound up - 'overlap' is somewhat minimising. There are boundaries, but they can be pretty fluid; for the most part it is fine, one just needs to be vigilant on one's own behalf, and for others, who are not necessarily good at protecting themselves from too much unsought attention.

Hey Jude said...

PS - it didn't take me a long time to find 'the one' - we've been together since I was seventeen, married at twenty-one - we grew up together, or rather are still in the process - doesn't do to imagine there's an end to growing up. :) I take him so much for granted - sometimes it's good to stop and think about how much you love someone who is just always there. Well, not literally, always there, but so there it's easy to forget to remember why I love him. Most of the time, lol. :)

Anonymous said...

Awwww. These comments hit me in my feels. Love (whatever it is) to all of you.

Lis said...

Ima.Grandma, many years ago I was irritated with my husband (who I love with all my heart) and I turned to journaling to write down all my frustrations. Well I even exaggerated them because I was venting. So one day I said something snippish to him and he said "oh, do you think I am..." and quoted one of my journals. I looked at him and he looked at me (he hurt but ever patient and kind, I am the irritable one), I said, "you read my journal?" and was ready to be incensed, but then as we looked at each other we both suddenly burst out laughing and we laughed and laughed. And that was the end of the whole thing. I still laugh when I think back on it. (But I do hide my journals now, ha ha!)

We've been together 40 years. I almost lost him to cancer last year, I'm so very thankful for modern medicine!

Laughter is also a big part of love, I forgot.

tania cadogan said...

Thank you everyone who has spoken freely about their own definition of love and how it came about through personal experience from birth up to this very moment.
Everyone's definition of love is unique not only to them also in the whole world.

Just think, 7 billion plus definitions of love between people be they family, other relatives, friends, neighbors, work colleagues and 't'interweb.
Think how many billions if not trillions definitions of love between a person and a pet.

You have all been open about your experiences both good and bad, especially considering this is a statement analysis site where more private and personal information can be learned about someone than they have written.
It indicates trust.

Perhaps there is someone out there for me,though since i am a full time carer for my uncle who is having a happy waddle through the medical a-z and i was also a carer for my mom for 10 years till she wandered off this mortal coil, i don't see anything happening for the next few years till uncle finds the index and closes the book.
I also think i will remain single as i am set in my ways (darn this makes me sound sooo old )

I may fall in like with someone perhaps

Big hugs all around and thank you for sharing xx

foodiefoodnerd said...

To all of you that value your privacy, who keep deeply personal journals:

How do you feel about people (loved ones, not random strangers) reading your innermost thoughts after you're gone?

These days we can encrypt our sensitive information on disks or thumb drives, but that isn't nearly the same as expressing our deepest personal feelings in our own handwriting.

Kudos to you all; I've never felt comfortable enough even when living alone to have my deepest thoughts in print for anyone to find.

I was harassed endlessly, then eventually kicked out of a high school English class because for not going "nearly deep enough or personal enough" in our required daily journal.

The few people I trust enough to read it already know what I think and feel.

foodiefoodnerd said...

Quoting tanis cadogan:

"Think how many billions if not trillions definitions of love between a person and a pet."
~~~~~

Generally speaking you can measure how ridiculously spoiled your cat is by how many silly nicknames and evolutions of their formal name they recognize.

Anything in the double digits is dangerously close to crazy cat lady territory! (from personal experience)

Speaking of cats, ima.grandma, you never went back and told us who was right and who was wrong in solving the liar kitties' positions.

ima.grandma said...

Dear foodie, thank you. It's a great question.

How do you feel about people (loved ones, not random strangers) reading your innermost thoughts after you're gone?

I was bit in shock when I just clicked the iPad in the middle of chores. I was just thinking about this dilemma. It's a horrible phobia. I've had to help go through so many close family members's possessions after death throughout my life. Its heartbreaking. The pain is indescribable.

Age and health has boosted a concern to remember what I leave behind: happy memories, play pretties, letters, special collections, treasured cards, memory boxes, journals etc. I want to make it easy for them. I want them to smile.

I've struggled for many years to try and keep them but the fear of family members might unnecessarily suffer with unending questions:
i.e. I didn't know she felt like that, I wish I would have known. She never said a word. I could have done something different.
I don't want them to hurt or feel pain. So I destroy my journals. And always will.

I'm sorry about the serial posting. Blame Peter for offering an opportunity to explore deeper issues. Back to chores.

ima.grandma said...

I can't find the cat riddle but I do remember you and Juliet were correct.

Here's a couple more:

Peter has three daughters who are all unmarried. The youngest always lies, the oldest always tells the truth, and the one in the middle either tells the truth or lies. A very rich young man comes to Peter's house and says he wishes to marry one of his daughters. Naturally he wants to marry the oldest or the youngest so he will always know if she is lying or telling the truth. Peter agrees but says he can only ask one of the girls a yes or no question to decide which one he marries. They all look the same age.

What one question does he ask one of the daughters at random to figure out which daughter is the youngest or oldest?


During lunch hour a group of boys from Peter's homeroom visited a nearby grocery store. One of the five took an apple.

Jim said, “It was Hank or Tom”.
Hank said, “Neither Eddie nor I did it.”
Tom said, “Both of you are lying.”
Don said, “No, one of them is lying, the other is speaking the truth.”
Eddie said, “No, Don, that is not true.”
When Peter was consulted, he said, “Three of these boys are always truthful but two will lie every time.”

Who took the apple?


Peter is a strange liar. 

He lies on six days of the week, but on the seventh day he always tells the truth. 

He made the following statements on three successive days:

Day 1:   'I lie on Monday and Tuesday.'
Day 2: 'Today, it's Thursday, Saturday, or Sunday.'
Day 3:  'I lie on Wednesday and Friday.'

On which day does Peter tell the truth?

Anonymous said...

What is love?
For me, love is being willing to die for someone else. I love my kids and hubby. I would die for them. I'd also die for someone elses kid. I think that's an instinctive love as a mom, feeling protective of kids because they are vulnerable.
Sometimes, my hubby annoys the shit out of me and there's even been times when I've thought I hated him, but even then I know I would give my life for him and I grudgingly accept I don't really hate him, I'm just pissed!

Anonymous said...

That's because you feed them, nurture them, and love them; animals are loyal and devoted to those who treat them well. Unlike humans, whom are a bit more complicated. I mean,you can treat humans with just as much love and caring but their love is not guaranteed. I think that's why some people love their pets more than humans - it's a "safe" love. I'm not being critical, by the way. I understand that unrequited(?) love is hurtful.

Anonymous said...

What is cheating?
For me, cheating would be being physically intimate with someone who isn't your partner. Emotional cheating is a bit different, but it's still cheating. Confiding in someone stuff you would normally share with your partner is emotional cheating.
The former satisfies a physical need, the latter satisfies an emotional need.

Hey Jude said...

Well, the first one seems impossible - I must be asking the wrong questions, because if I was him, I would still always possibly be marrying the middle daughter. They don't get much of a say in these things, has to be said. :) It's not for want of trying - I put three dolls house dolls on a table, and asked them each many questions, but found none of them marriageable for very long - it always turned out to be a false positive.

The second one, after a while, I decided, 'who cares? - it 's only a blutty apple..' I know this is not the right attitude or solution - yesterday's apple thief, tomorrow's bank robber. :) I didn't have dolls or an apple for that attempt, only pencil and paper, but was sooner defeated as there were even more characters involved.

The third one - I'm not even attempting that.

The cat riddle was relatively easy to solve through elimination and reasoning, with pencil and paper. If these should be similarly solvable, they are too complicated for me - I can't hold the thread for long enough in my head without losing it - nor with the dolls, or on paper.

Anonymous said...

That's so nice! Love to YOU. :-))

ima.grandma said...

Juliet, I'm hoping I have listed the answers correctly. It's been awhile since I've fiddled with these.

1. Answer:
"Is she older than her?" (He would ask one of the daughters if one of the other daughters is older than the last daughter). He always should pick the younger daughter based on what he knows. If he asks the older daughter and she says yes, then the youngest daughter will be known. If he asks the older daughter and she says no, then the youngest daughter is the other one. If he asks the youngest daughter and she says yes, she is lying and he will still pick the oldest. If he asks the youngest and she says no, he will just pick the other like in the first case. If he asks the middle daughter it doesn't matter because both will be acceptable choices.

2. Answer:
Tom took the apple
Jim was telling the truth
Hank was telling the truth
Tom was lying
Don was lying
Eddie was telling the truth
(three telling the truth and two lying)

3. Answer: Tuesday
Day 1 - Sunday. 'I lie on Monday and Tuesday'. Sunday is a day he lies. So he lied by saying he lies on Monday and Tuesday. But he tells truth on Tuesday

Day 2 is Monday- 'He said today is Saturday', Thursday or Sunday. So he lied

Day 3 is Tuesday - 'He tells truth on Tuesday'. So he said I lie on Wednesday and Friday

ima.grandma said...

After Peter found his rabbbit missing, he interviewed five neighbors.

Below is a summary of their statements.

Peter knows that each of them told the truth in one of the statements and lied in the other.

From this information can you tell who took his rabbit?

Brian said:
   It wasn't Charles
   It was Alan

Derek said:
   It was Charles
   It wasn't Alan

Charles said:
   It was Brian
   It wasn't Eric

Alan said:
   It was Eric
   It wasn't Brian

Eric said:
   It was Derek
   It was Alan

ima.grandma said...

Juliet, I love the dolls scenario. Very cute...

Hey Jude said...

I agree, above - love back to Anon at 11.53, and to Tania for both her posts, and to anyone who wants it.

:)

Foodie - I don't keep journals. I write my thoughts to my confessor, then I delete them - I think he shreds them, as I asked him to do that.

I delete virtually everything I write, sooner or later. 'delete blog - 'delete account' - edit, chuck out, destroy. Then I think, 'Why did you do that, idiot?' I dunno, I lose confidence, or interest, or I become paranoid - whatever, it just goes. It's about eight years since I last kept a regular blog - I rather comment on others' blogs these days.

When I die, they will maybe wonder how I got to be a shell. That's the intention anyway - nothing to clear out, or attend to, because I will have done it already. I'll leave them lovely photos, mostly of themselves. :) In reality, they'll probably end up wading through a load of random stuff they don't quite know what to do with, like most people do, but I hope not.



Hey Jude said...

Ima grandma - I need to have my head awake and together to follow through the solutions, so I will save that for probably Monday - I'm expecting visitors for today and tomorrow, but will look forward to the brain exercise later.

Lol - the dolls, I will post a photo of them to my profile on Monday if I have enough memory to take one on my iPad - it hasn't backed up for months and is trying to sell me iCloud storage, so it needs a major editing session. :)

ima.grandma said...

Juliet
I delete virtually everything I write, sooner or later. 'delete blog - 'delete account' - edit, chuck out, destroy. Then I think, 'Why did you do that, idiot?' I dunno, I lose confidence, or interest, or I become paranoid - whatever, it just goes.

I feel kinship. Your actions/thoughts described complement mine.

ima.grandma said...

Hobs, statement analysis of your post tells me you are a lovely soul...and a great teammate.

Lis said...

My feelings about my journals after I die... I don't save things I wouldn't want someone to read, anything that would hurt anyone. I like to write positive things about the people I love so they will be blessed if they read them later.

After my mom died, I was left with a stack of her journals. I was very apprehensive to read them. Come to find out they were mainly of mundane things that had no meaning at all! It was surprising as my mom was a writer.

What a lovely page this has become!

The question was asked why some people love animals more than people... I wonder if it is because they have been betrayed and lost the ability to trust people. Animals are not ones to betray us.

Hey Jude said...

Ima,grandma - some of my paranoia is round guilt - knowing, ideally, I should not even think some things, much less put them in writing - yet I do - that's conflicting. Still, none of us has ever existed in a vacuum, only in relation to other people, some of whom we probably do not even remember, yet have known, or been known by. Trying to understand and explain some of that, and myself in relation to various others, can seem a betrayal of them, and sometimes it is a betrayal, a failure in love (Christian love - I strive, I fail). I'd get along so well with Judas, I'm sure - though also I think we're all a bit like Judas sometimes - it's not exceptional. That's one aspect.

Then there's the memory and fear of intrusions - such as having someone read my mail, or look over my shoulder at what I was or am writing. Even if I would not have minded for them to read it when it was finished (a poem, story, blog etc) I could not and can't stand for anyone to read what is not finished; as there is no end to what any of us could say or write, in a sense, nothing is ever quite complete or finished enough. I think that's part of the problem in deleting things, not being satisfied enough with anything, not quite conveying what one would like to be able to say, the inability to articulate anything well enough, not having the words. It's like seeing something out of the corner of my eye, but it's gone when I look up so don't know what it was, or having words on the tip of my tongue, but then they are gone before my mind can hold them.

Emails - I don't put those in the same category as some other writing, so those go back for years untouched (except junk and commercial mails, and a blippy correspondence of long ago) - even if they're personal, they are, with a few exceptions, not that personal (some regrettable in-law arguments, oh dear, but I didn't start them) - anything in an email might get forwarded, or misdelivered, or end up in the public domain. FB, meh - but necessary these days for keeping up, especially with young family and friends. I have multiple accounts, for various games - it helps not to spam people on my regular account with game requests. It's the writing I do offline I trouble about most - sometimes I have scared myself, without knowing how or why.

Mostly, these days, I think introspection doesn't help, so I try to avoid too much of it, and to not take myself too seriously - write less, do other less anxiety creating things (though the privacy issue is the same - I look at my art and craft supplies, a couple of store-room shelves with materials for projects - the piano. If I ask, I know no-one will interrupt me for as long as I like, I can lock the door to the room to be quite sure. Can't lock the door in my head though. :-/ Still, I am determined to make some pictures this year - some years, I do, but not doing so well these last couple of years.

---

Sorry it got long - I only came to see if there was a blog update and new comments, tarried somewhat. I can't engage enough for the riddle solution till after the weekend - lol, it's like school. I think to take some time out as of next week, I know I post too much. :)

.



ima.grandma said...

Juliet, you sparkle with your intuitiveness. Insight is a developed gift. It sounds like you've paid your dues and are now able to 'be'.

I am so impressed with us. We value our privacy. Yet, we feel safe enough to share innermost thoughts in the conducive arena Peter has created. Yes Hobs, this open communication is indeed indicative of trust and cohesiveness. Lis, you summed up this exchange beautifully. Thank you.

ima.grandma said...

"some report recovering after years, but never fully to the place of trust, ever again. 

I know that millions are made saying otherwise, but some of the "cures" offered for sale are worse than the causes."
Peter

I agree. Most (imo) "cures" are misused and abused in order to perpetrate deceptions, manipulations, predator behaviors and exert control over good intentioned, heart based, unaware and innocent people. Many who have suffered through the learning experiences of great betrayals of trust are then expected to listen and grow with inspiration to superficial flowery words with no substance or meaning behind them. 

Alternative solution: meditation and prayer.

Hey Jude said...

Ima.grandma - thanks for your kind words. I agree, it is an arena conducive to trust. I trust Peter (though I'm glad I'm not a Muslim :-/) , and a fair few of those who post here, but as it's such an open forum, I will continue to err on the side of saying less rather than more. I'm easily enough identifiable to those who know me in 'real' life, and not everyone is a friend (or a preferrer of truth).

--

Well, I posted the dolls - they're rather on the young side to be offered in marriage, but as they are the only three I have which are similar enough in style/appearance for the exercise, they had to suffice:

Dolls and logic board :)

As it's become even more complicated I moved on from the dolls (I hadn't been asking one questions of the other two - though I had tried 'are you the oldest?' and 'are you the youngest?') so, it's onto the logic board now, with Rule, the One Question Only which can be asked of One Sister Only, and each of their responses (and possible responses in the case of the middle sister). That's as far as I have got - now having a coffee break before trying to figure out how the solution works - it was doing my head in and still seemed unworkable as I was putting the board together, because he always only has one response to go on in making his choice, and he could (so far as he knows) alway be asking the middle sister, who may be lying, or not - but I do like a challenge, just so long as it doesn't involve numbers. :)

Matt Whan said...

My father in law has always said: "Anything you wouldn't do with your partner sitting next to you, should be considered inappropriate." If you wouldn't send a text to a man, or woman with your wife/husband sitting next to you, it's flagged as inappropriate. Viewing messages, content, pictures, videos, etc.

I consider cheating as anything that breaks trust in a relationship. Consider this: If your wife/husband came home, lipstick smeared, hair a mess, clothing disheveled, would your immediate thought be: "Maybe she's/he's taken up wrestling, Judo, or UFC."? Hardly. Though we'd all like to believe our first thought wouldn't be that they're cheating, it simply doesn't work that way.

If your partner is hiding their phone, deliberately tilting the screen or their body away when reading/responding to a text message or email, it's not always a sign that they're cheating. But it is an indicator that something is being hidden. If you're talking to a coworker, or someone on Facebook, or other Social Media mediums, and instead of talking to your partner, and being open about it, you're thinking "Well... if I tell her/him, it's just going to start a fight. Why should I start a fight when there's nothing wrong..." That's taking a step in the wrong direction. It's a breach of trust. Will she/he be inclined to believe you once the perhaps professional relationship comes out (which it always does) only to find out that the knowledge has been hidden? Would you be upset if the roles were reversed? Again, my stance is anything that breaches that trust mutually shared between a couple indicates cheating. Don't forget: Cheating doesn't have to be physical. It can be emotional, or mental.

Matt Whan said...

As for my definition of what Love is, my answer is surely biased. I am not that old, but I have experienced more than I would consider to be my fair share of deception, and betrayal. It is possible to love someone, and not be IN love with someone. So far as it goes that, if anything bad happened to an ex, most of us surely would hurt. That's different than being in love, though, as far as I am concerned. For me love is something personal. A connection shared between a person, place, or thing, that - though it may not seem logical to others - feels right at home in our hearts. It could be that tire swing at grandma and grandpa's. The best pet you've ever had, food, scenery, etc. The definition of love is just as subjective as a person's internal dictionary when it comes to statement analysis. Each person will describe something different, only to have the same meaning implied.