Thursday, February 25, 2016

Reliable Denial? Answers...


Allegation:  Adult had sexual contact with underaged girl.

Denial:   "I certainly didn't have sex with that girl at my home."  

Analysis?

How many points of analysis are in this short sentence?

A.  List as many as you can and include 
B.  what questions you would like to ask the subject.  



"I certainly didn't have sex with that girl at my home."

My first question,

"So, where did you have sex with her?"

The reason being is that even though it breaks the rules, the rules and principles are subordinate to us; they serve us.  We do not exist to serve them. 

I have encountered such and have had the shocked response where one answers the question!

Note that there is much here to work with. 

"Certainly" is added to the denial, which means it is to be classified as "non reliable."  It does not mean it is deceptive; it means that by itself, we cannot make a conclusion of which we have certainty.  He has added an element, violating the principle that the reliable denial can neither be added to, nor subtracted from.  

Questions include:

"What happened?"

"Why is this accusation made against you?"

"What led to this accusation being made?"

"Why might one make such an accusation?"   (it's always good to hear the attitude towards the accuser.  Will the denial outweigh the need to insult the accuser, or will it be the other way around?)

That the subject distances himself with "that girl", a la Bill Clinton's "that woman, Ms. Lewinsky" only reflects the emotional distance from him, and neither affirms nor denies the status of reliability. 

"I certainly didn't have sex with that girl at my home."

Why is location critical here?

Is this a contaminated statement? 

A contaminated statement is one in which the subject had been interviewed first.  Most times we set aside contaminated statements instead of analyzing , but we can, in a limited way, still analyze. 

If this was in an open statement, location is on the subject's mind, but if he was asked about his home, it reduces the emphasis on location.  Without being asked anything other than being accused of having sex with her (an underaged girl), by going to location, his denial, although reduced with "certainly", is more about the location and it may be that he did not have any sexual contact with her at his home, but elsewhere. 

What makes it larger than life is that we must learn what the meaning of "sex" is.

In some seminars, I highlight the vastness of the subjectivity of the understanding of sex with a simple request:

I discuss deception detection in romance but have attendees identify, exactly what constitutes "cheating" in their relationship.  

I continue to be surprised at the wide variables found within the relationships and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.  

As time passes, culture shifts, the width of subjectivity continues to expand.  

I pose this question to readers:

In your personal relationship, what constitutes being "cheated" upon. 

Be specific and help the research!  

The "rules" should be interesting.  

48 comments:

mom2many said...

Cheating in my marriage would begin with fantasizing about any other individual with full consent of the will (odd dreams not counted unless dwelled on once waking), engaging in pornography, and obviously any physical act with another. We are Catholic, so unchastity with oneself would also be cheating.

John mcgowan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John mcgowan said...

""In your personal relationship, what constitutes being "cheated" upon."

This is a passive question.

Are you speaking of infidelity, Peter?

Our are you asking what our "subjective internal definition" of cheating is in our "personal relationships" ie wives, husbands parters etc and or family, friends and professional?

Trishapatk said...

There is a range of behavior that could be considered cheating, all the way from simple omission of certain facts to blatant sexual infidelity.
To engage in any kind of lying or deception implies that they are doing something that they know goes outside the bounds of what is expected or acceptable within their relationship. It may not be wrong in and of itself but they know that the motivations behind it are questionable and that their spouse would see it that way.

Peter, you said that you discuss "deception detection in romance" with attendees at your seminars. Is that a topic you could cover more here on the blog? I wonder if it is a topic that others would find interesting also.

Lisa21222 said...

Anything that involves romantic feelings for another person AND results in deceptive behavior (clearing phone logs, deleting emails, even renaming a contact to avoid your significant other finding out who you are actually communicating with) intended to hide the "relationship" (whether or not THAT is romantic) from one's significant other.

John mcgowan said...

If in regards to relationships spouses partners.

I will be passive (in what happened to me) on here. I will though explain briefly.

I suspected for quite some time i was being Deceived. At this time, i was learning S/A. There were "red flags" and alarm bells going off in her language. I refused to trust my instinct and S/A. Needles to say, i was right, as i suspected.

I put it down to (my words) "relationship bias" maybe i didn't want to right.

I would love to see an article regarding "relationship bias"

Anonymous said...

I went to a Catholic college here in my town. One of my professors, married with 9 children, explained to me that if I were to give him oral sex in the back of his van, it would not count as adultery because only vaginal sex would count as "real sex" and adultery. I didn't do it, even tho he was super-pushy - ha ha!! I begged off saying "It's not safe sex.", much to his protest.

tania cadogan said...

I'm still single after i dumped my then boyfriend in 1997.
I knew he was cheating as he language changed when speaking about his ex.
He had always complained about how miserable she had made him, if she ever came up in conversation (he would introduce it not me)
He became quite pleasant about her.
That was when i asked him if he was seeing her or had seen her.
He did the usual denials then when he saw i wasn't buying it he turned on the water works.
That didn't work with me either.
I packed my stuff the next day and left him to it.

They had a child togeather (boy did that surprise me)though i don't think they have married.
She had mental issues and he had 'other' issues.

I do seem he around town occasionally and he will ask how i am, what i am doing.

Bro sees him around more often than i do and he will say XXX was asking about you when he saw me in whereever, he wanted to know how you were and what you were doing doing.
He says it is as if he is sniffing around to see if you miss him perhaps, I said no chance, he had his chance and blew it.
It was a shame really since he was a generally nice chap apart from a chip on his shoulder in relation to his mom and dad getting divorced.
i will always stop and have a chat if he sees me, i'm nice like that :)

He is currently living in misery with her :)

If someone has a reason to be deceptive about who they are talking to or seeing, be it in real life or online, it is cheating.

lynda said...

I define cheating as doing/saying/looking(such as porn)/engaging/emailing/texting/etc. with anyone or anything that is kept "a secret" from your partner. If you have to hide it, you're already lying at least by omission and that's not right in my book.

John mcgowan said...

Anonymous said...

"it would not count as adultery because only vaginal sex would count as "real sex" and adultery."

Hi

Like Bill Clinton. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss lewinsky"

"Subjective Internal Dictionary"

John mcgowan said...

OT:

Son arrested in 82-year-old mother’s death in south Charlotte home

Two years after Ina Feldman was found strangled and beaten to death in her south Charlotte home, police say they have charged her 58-year-old son with her murder.

Son Irwin Jay Feldman initially told police he found her body about 9:30 a.m. Feb. 4. in her townhouse on Torrey Pines Court, a south Charlotte community of mostly older residents with little crime. Irwin lived a few doors down from his mother.

In the two years since Feldman was killed, police have not released many developments in the case.

CMPD Major Cam Selvey, speaking from police headquarters on Thursday, said police have been actively working the case since Feldman’s death. Over the past few weeks, investigators developed probable cause that linked Irwin Feldman to the killing, he said.

They invited Feldman in to talk on Thursday morning. After the interview, Feldman was arrested and charged with murder. He was in Mecklenburg jail late Thursday with no bail set. It was the first time he had been charged with a crime, according to a court records search conducted by the Observer.

In a brief press conference, police wouldn’t release a motive in the killing. They also wouldn’t identify the key piece of evidence that led to Feldman’s arrest or say why it took two years to arrest a suspect. Selvey said more interviews are taking place.

Another son, Harold Feldman, declined to comment when reached by the Observer on Thursday.

The brutal, seemingly random attack of an elderly woman in her home put residents on edge. Police beefed up patrols and held meetings with neighborhood leaders after Feldman’s killing. And officers conducted free security assessments of the homes on Torrey Pines Court.

On Thursday, Selvey tried to ease those fears.

“There is no reason for that community to be afraid of any sort of random violence,” he said. “We have made an arrest, and unfortunately, it was her son. It is a known suspect in this case.”

Police believe Feldman could have been killed as many as 36 hours before they were called. Investigators have not released a suspected motive, or said whether she was the victim of a robbery. And they haven’t said whether there were signs of forced entry or a struggle at Feldman’s one-story townhouse just off Carmel Road.

Selvey wouldn’t say whether investigators believe the robbery was a cover-up for the killing. “Irwin Feldman is charged with murder,” he said.

Feldman was wearing her nightgown when she was killed, according to an autopsy obtained by the Observer. She also had on yellow metal earrings with black stones, a matching necklace with a clear stone pendant and a bracelet.

Her son said he found her lying in bed, her face, hair and the bed covered in blood, and she had no pulse.

The autopsy showed she had injuries all over her body – cuts on her face and head, blows to her right eye and the back of her head, multiple bruises on her right arm, and a fractured left thumb.

Irwin Feldman described many of those injuries when he called 911 on Feb. 4.

“There’s blood all over her hair, it looks like she got hit in the head with something,” he told a 911 dispatcher. “There’s blood over her. It looks like she’s beyond any help.”

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article62508187.html#storylink=cpy

911 call:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article62516337.html

The audio is not clear. I will try to find the transcript. From what i can make out. He offers up an explanation (" looks like she got hit in the head with something") of what may have happened, without being asked.

Xian Janeway said...

The body of Jennifer Hicks has been found. I'm waiting w/ baited breath to see if there was a shed or a hanging involved. :(

John mcgowan said...

Xian Janeway said...

"The body of Jennifer Hicks has been found. I'm waiting w/ baited breath to see if there was a shed or a hanging involved. :("

Hi

I found this, too.

Missing Calloway Co. woman found dead

CALLOWAY COUNTY, KY (KFVS) -
A missing Calloway County, Kentucky woman has been found dead.

According to Kentucky State Police, Jennifer L. Hicks, 31, of Murray was found dead in Calloway County.

They say the Calloway County Sheriff's Office advised them her body was found.

Police are on the scene and investigating.

According to KSP, they got an arrest warrant for Hicks on Feb. 16 for theft by failure to make required disposition of property over $10,000.

Hicks has been the subject of a missing person investigation by the Calloway County Sheriff's Office since February 9.

According to the Calloway County Sheriff's Office, they received calls from family and friends Hicks, who had not been seen since Tuesday, February 9.

The sheriff's office said Hicks left her work around 12 p.m. on Tuesday to go check on her daughter.

At about 12:45 her vehicle was seen on State Highway 94 heading east.

KSP is being assisted by the Calloway County Sheriff's Office, the Murray Police Department and the Calloway County Coroner's Office.
#

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/31193648/missing-calloway-co-woman-found-dead

JenB said...

I am also interested in anyone's thoughts on the Faith Hedgepeth pocket dial call that was just released.

It is a call made from the murder victim's phone to a friend's. The call went to voice mail and recorded about 3 minutes of what sounds like a very angry, threatening and violent encounter between the murder victim and 3 other people, some of whose names the victim uses.

I didn't listen to the audio, but the transcript alone is awful.

The police have claimed this recording is unrelated to Faith's murder, bc the message's timestamp indicated it was made about 3 hours before the likely time of death.

http://faithhedgepeth.blogspot.com/?m=1

tania cadogan said...

Hi John, was this a case we looked at, at the time her body was found?

John mcgowan said...

Tania cadogan said...

"Hi John, was this a case we looked at, at the time her body was found?"

Hi, Tania

Are you referring to "Son arrested in 82-year-old mother’s death in south Charlotte home"?

If so, i don't recall it mentioned here before?

Nic said...

In my books, being cheated upon would constitute anything that would not otherwise be said to, or happen with someone else while in the presence of your partner/spouse. If you wouldn’t do it/say it in front of your partner, then you have to know what you’re doing is undermining the trust you share with your “beloved”.

One of the radio program’s question of the day was: “Would you give your phone to your partner/spouse for the day.” I would. My husband would. One of the announcers said he got into a huge fight with his wife because he wouldn’t give her the passcode to his phone. (Not sure why she would want it in the first place, except that evidently her demand/his reluctance means there are trust issues there.) I said, that’s easy, give her the passcode and then change it afterwards. If she confronts him about it then they can debate why she feels the need to spy.

I have this thing about privacy. If the mail is addressed to me, you can read it, but only after I’ve opened it. Even if it's "junk". Same with my phone. You can read it, but only after I’ve opened it for you, otherwise why the need to “monitor” me? Aside from making me feel like a child, what’s the point? Please share.

A guy I scribed for in college use to monitor his girlfriend’s computer use and then reproach her about the amount of usage/places she visited when he thought she should have been looking for a job/on the job boards. I asked him if he was going to install a nanny camera, too.

An old acquaintance’s marriage was breaking up. He told us that he was watching (stalking!) his estrange wife through the backyard patio door and was watching her laugh while at the computer. This really made him angry because he didn’t think that what they were going through was “fun”. Wanting to know what she was so “happy” about, he hired a PI to install key logger software on her computer. A short while afterwards he sat in my kitchen with a half-inch printout of his estrange wife’s computer activity and proceeded to read it allowed to us, like what she was doing was “wrong". There is an expression: what people think of you is none of your business. He hurt himself more by violating his ex’s privacy than the disintegration of his marriage ever could.

elf said...

In one arricle, it says a witness saw a vehicle matching Jennifer Hicks vehicle being towed from a storage facility. A storage unit is similar to a shed, both are used for storage.

Anonymous said...

I would love to see more articles about cheating and language of deception by Peter.

I have recently found my husband and a co-worker were "friendly" chatting. He normally deleted these messages, and I wondered why delete, if just friends.

The messages seemed mildly flirty imo. (he forgot to delete a couple days worth)

I did contact his co-worker. And still wondering if she gave me a reliable denial.

So yes, I'd be totally interested in seeing more articles about cheaters language, and even possible other woman's replies!!!

I'd love to post the co-workers replies here just to have you wonderfully smart readers give me your thoughts! Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees

tania cadogan said...

Hi John i recall something about an older woman being found dead and no one seemed to be able to find anything to point to a suspect. This is going back a couple of years

Nic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nic said...

After I posted last night I was surprised to see that I used the word "child". I was going to delete it because me+child does not equal what statement analysis typically suggests. But I used the word "child"! So I had to figure out why that was. When I typed that I was typing in reference to being an eleven year old and living with my grandmother for the summer. I lived in Ontario, but my grandmother lived in Nova Scotia. My mom worked and she didn't think it was fair that my older brother should have to babysit me all summer, so my grandmother suggested that she fly me "home" (what Cdn. easterners call the East Coast). Every day I would wait until the mailman would come to see if my mother had written me a letter. The one time I wasn't home a letter came. I arrived home late because I had been spending the day with one of my aunt's sisters-in-law (oopsie babies/twins who were a year older than me). My other aunt had dropped in to see my grandmother and saw the letter. She couldn't stick around and decided that because I was taking too long to get home, she'd open it and read it. When I got home and saw that the letter had been opened, I had a complete meltdown. My grandmother tried to minimize what my aunt had done but I was inconsolable. That letter was between me and my mom and she had "violated" my privacy. Which, given my reaction was a crime against me. I'm very hyper sensitive about kids' <-- rights. Just because someone is a minor, doesn't mean that that they don't have a voice or rights, or boundaries and they should always be respected.

Nic said...

Anonymous @ 11:15, ask your husband

1) if she's married,
2) if he would banter 'like that' in front of you/does he think she would in front of her husband if she's in a committed relationship
3) if the answer is yes, and it undermines your self-confidence/trust, tell him so

JenB said...

Anonymous, I am sorry to say that if your husband is deleting messages from this coworker, and doesn't ordinarily delete messages, then something is out of the ordinary about their messages or their relationship. If you want to stay together, you should begin marital counseling. Maybe nothing physical has happened between them, but there is some connection he knows is different from what it should be.

JenB said...

I wanted to add, one of the principles of statement analysis is that a change in language represents a change in circumstance. I would argue that applies to behavior as well: a change in behavior represents a change in circumstances. What circumstances have led to your husband deleting conversations with a coworker, if that was not his previous behavior?

Anonymous said...

@John McGowen I think you are on to something with the relationship bias.
When I took the SA class with Avinoam Sapir in 2012 I remember him warning us, “Never, ever do this with a family member or someone you know well.” He also quoted Ecclesiastes 1:18 “For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.” I tried to follow this advice (Notice, I said I tried. . .)

Fast forward a couple years and I noticed my wife was more distant and at times hostile to me. We had not been intimate in about 6 months but I loved her and figured it was something we would work through. One Sunday I noticed some of her lingerie was missing. The lingerie had been there on Saturday but was missing on Sunday. I asked her about it and she was deceptive in her answers. She had only left the house once in that time frame and it was to go to a support meeting. I began to suspect she was having an affair.

I am an investigator and over the next month I was able to figure out exactly what was going on and the name of her paramour. I confronted her one day after she had returned from a visit to his house and told her that I was giving her a chance to be honest about what has been going on. Instead of telling me the truth she was both deceptive and outright lied – that is, she created events out of thin air that had not happened and presented them to me as the truth. Although I didn’t want to believe that she was a liar, there she was, sitting on the couch, telling me that she had been at church when my car (which she drove) was sitting in her paramour’s driveway on the other side of town during that time. She even told me about the things that happened at the church that day to buttress her story but they were all made up lies. She had not gone to the church and the events she described never happened. After about 40 minutes she confessed that she was over at another man’s house but they were just friends. She said she liked him but he didn’t feel the same way about her. She said their relationship was platonic and there had not been any physical relationship between them. This too was a lie. About a month following that she finally confessed to the whole emotional and physical affair under additional questioning.

She promised that she would never see him again and that she knew she had made a mistake. In fact she did continue to see him and just made up more lies to cover herself. I filed for divorce.

Anonymous said...

Cont.

While I felt that I would be able to get past the physical affair, I was not willing to live with her knowing that she was a liar, continued to lie, and also continued to carry on the affair. What I discovered was that she lied about almost everything. Even when she would have been better off telling the truth, her default was to make something up, often elaborate. During one of our marriage counseling sessions she made the following admission. It is rather stunning. She told the counselor, “Living with David is like living with Sherlock Holmes. He knows every time I lie to him.” That is a verbatim quote. While she intended that to be a criticism of me, what she really did was confess to being a liar.
So what is the purpose of this long story except perhaps for catharsis? The point is that I doubt she became a liar on the day she decided to have an affair. I believe the manner in which she is deceptive and lies is something she has done since childhood. We were married for over 10 years and even as a trained investigator, even with the SA training I have done, even with my close observation of her over those 10 plus years, I didn’t recognize the liar living in my own house. I think it was willful self-deception on my part. I didn’t want to believe it. Going back in our history I now see all the different times that she lied – big, life altering lies but I was deceiving myself.

I think you are right about spousal bias however I also think that it is a dangerous path to tread. Sometimes I wish I didn’t clearly hear everything that people are saying.

“For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.” Indeed.

Be well.

-Akula

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your replies. Nic, she is not married. In fact we've met several times. My husband is her boss.

She texted him good morning with sunshines and coffee cups daily, and would text him that she'll be in his neck of the woods a particular weekend for a bbq.

He would text her at lunch offering her if she'd like a refreshing juice for him to bring her.
She thanked him for a special coffee.

One text he texted her, At least this meeting was today and not on your day. ( I later asked him what this was and his reply after much thought was, it was concerning her horoscope)

She's asked him during work hours to come down and check the temperature and that she is in a particular room.

I texted her one word "homewrecker"

Her reply: Who's home am I wrecking?

I didn' reply

she texts again-I have no intention to do that and i'm terribly sorry if it seems like that. but I have never have and will never cross any line that would do that to someones home and family. Please believe me

I reply- I wish I could. Texting my husband daily crosses many lines.

She texts-you are right. I appologize. It will never happen again. I am terribly sorry. You have all the rights. I'm not a home wrecker and i never thought or spoke about anything more then a friendship with him. I always respected his family. Again i really apologize for my stupidity and i will never do that again

meanwhile, she's texting my husband

She texted me. I have no intention to ruin your life and family. You know that and I know that. I apologize if I did anything
wrong and I make sure it will never happen again.

then a few minutes later she texted him - Im terribly sorry.

The next morning after he didn't show up at work- she texts him

Hi *husbands name*,
I'm devastated.
Your wife called me a home wrecker. I never asked you a relationship. It was not in the picture we both knew it very well.
You never asked for a relationship. I always respected her. If anythinig, i backed her up as a woman. She's right we shouldn't have texted. But I hate to think she thinks of as if I wanted to grab her husband from her. I am not that kind of a woman. I will look for a job and leave new roots. I can't be known for this in your life.
You knew I was takling to someone long distance and I didn't hite it fro you. Why would i ruin your life? What did you tell her about me. I'm just destroyed. I hope hope hope she believes i did not ever think of a minute of an affair with you. i promise until i leave i will keep everything only professional at work. I hope she feels ok with that. Regards.


Any thoughts are welcome.

I did mention she is unmarried, never been married, late 30's

He also took her out to dinner one night, when i was away for a couple weeks, claiming her car wouldnt' start and he drove her home.

Another day he left early to go to costco, but went to her house to give her a tool to apparently fix her shower.

He is currently still her boss. He is in contact at work with her daily. No longer texting from what I can tell.

Nic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nic said...

Anonymous, imo there is a reason why your hinky meter is registering the red zone.

I’m thinking that if you’re asking for feedback then it’s because you need validating. Just remember, if confronting your loved one, be prepared for the truth. And if you give someone an ultimatum, be prepared that the ultimatum not go the way you want it to.

i backed her up as a woman.

What is intimate between you and him, he as made intimate between him and her without giving you the opportunity to “defend” yourself. In other words, he’s taken the intimacy out of your marriage and placed it someplace else/with someone else. Saying she backs you up “as a woman” is trying to say she is trustworthy. She is not. What about backing you up as a his wife by respecting your sacred, marital boundary?

horoscope = people check each other’s “sign” to find out if they are [romantically] compatible

You knew I was takling to someone long distance and I didn't hite it fro you.

She introduces the words “hide”. In the negative, making it sensitive. I think that statement was for your benefit because she knows she’s been caught out of bounds. As in she’s trying create the impression that there is someone “long distance”, therefore she’s not a threat. That contrary to always seeing her single and available was actually because she had been carrying on with someone long distant. She introduces “long distance” as in not physically accessible/available to her. Technically she connects with your husband via texts/over the wires. If he wasn’t married and UNavailable, would she appear single?

Another day he left early to go to costco, but went to her house to give her a tool to apparently fix her shower.

emphasis mine.

Behaviour wise, men typically show their affection to women by fixing things. tool/shower I could elaborate, but would rather not, except to say that all he should have done was direct her to 411 or give her the number of a handyman, not avail himself.

Dinner is your time. Always.

IMO, “Hi”/“I’m devastated,” and everything that followed was directed at you and is about covering tracks.

“You never asked for a relationship”

They absolutely have a relationship A professional one. Picking up a coffee for a colleague is no biggie. Texting a colleague to say you’ll be late is no problem. Professionally speaking. However, he is/they are out of bounds when he is taking her to dinner, driving her home at night from dinner-for-two, he is going over to her house to fix her shower; she is backing you up “as a woman” like she’s your supposed friend.

Why do you need defending? What is he not sharing with you?

I don’t think she is your friend and I don’t believe that your husband is being honest with you.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Nic.

It seems much more clear now.

I am not a jealous person. So the every morning at 750AM texts from her to him were alarming.
Always "good morning with two coffee emotions and sometimes a sunshine"

Was trying to figure out if she was simply trying to climb the corporate ladder by flirting, or if there is something deeper going on.

I suppose I will never know. He maintains it was solely a friendship.
I maintain, nobody hides "just friends"

She was never a friend of mine.

Nic said...

Sorry, I corrected a couple of things in my last post and didn't redo my bold/italics code so they're missing.
_____________

I was married before. My first husband was from PEI and we lived there for the first four years we were together. They have gorgeous beaches. He hated the beaches/never enjoyed tanning so we rarely went together. Usually I'd go with a girlfriend while he golfed. Anyway, we relocated to Ontario and he had a hard time finding employment so took a job in a bar. Essentially I worked days, he nights. Suddenly he started tanning. Like he was tanned! This was significant because I could never get him to go to the beach. He thought it was boring. Also, he was quite fair even though he had dark brown hair (one of the reasons he didn't enjoy tanning -- too much work/time). I didn't usually go to the Sports bar where he worked, but ended up there one night for some event that was being projected via satellite (which was a big deal back in 1989). I noted that he and one of the waitresses were very chummy chummy. He was chummy with all the girls, but he only watched this one particular (black) waitress work the floor. Like a hawk. A couple weeks later I went to the bar again, unannounced; but instead of leaving before closing time with my friend, I stayed behind while my husband closed. So did the waitress. I don't know. I guess she figured I would take a cab home? She ended up stomping out to grab a cab. Long story short, they were having an affair. I guess the tanning was about addressing his fish belly white skin in contrast to hers. :0)

I told my now husband if he ever started wearing cologne he'd be in a big trouble. :0)

John mcgowan said...

""Just Friends"


If you catch your spouse using these words, it may be that he or she is "just" friends, but first ask yourself:

"Who brought in the comparison?"

If you, the suspicious spouse did, the word "just" is an appropriate response. But if you ask, "Who did you have lunch with?" and you get, "I went to lunch with Bob; we're just friends" you now know that the subject, has compared the level of friendship she has with Bob with another level.

Proceed with caution.


http://statement-analysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/but-were-just-friends.html

Anonymous said...

I completely understand that Nic!

My husband has began working out in the house daily (last year and a half)
lost quite a bit of weight. And then of course needed new clothes, cared more about clipping nose hairs etc.

He still does this.

Back to the original article...I do find it's harder for loved ones to decode statements although perhaps easier to know something is off with their normal behaviour.

She had mentioned she will be leaving her job, ...come june it will be one year.

If she is not gone by then, I have told him that I will leave.

I suppose I lack trust.

Nic said...

She was never a friend of mine.

I agree, but she carried on because he allowed her to.

Going back to statement analysis:

What if you had not "walked in" on the conversation. "Just friends"/nothing happened doesn't mean nothing was going on. All it means is that what was in motion had been halted before [it] happened.

Nic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nic said...

Anonymous, we're posting simultaneously. Follow your heart and be true to you.

Lastly, if he is lying to you and things don't work out, there is a saying, "how you get them is how you lose them".

Anonymous said...

Thanks Nic :)

In other words, once a cheater always a cheater? "how you get them is how you lose them"

Your wise words have been helpful!

Nic said...

That's how karma works! ;0)

Bobcat said...

If they are hiding or lying about relationships, they are cheating.

If they are a pig and flirting & fondling right in front of you (without lying about the obvious), they are also cheating and you have many problems to overcome...or you are in an open relationship - in which case it's not cheating. Hmm. Interesting.

lynda said...

Anonymous...

From one woman to another. He is lying, he is cheating, he has told her intimate things regarding your marriage making your marriage no longer "different" from other relationships. She is manipulative and thinks she's clever by texting him that long message KNOWING you were going to see it. A year later?? He is having an affair. I totally agree with John about spousal bias..we don't see or hear what is right in front of us because we don't want too...simple as that. To believe, means we have to DO something if we have any self-respect at all and for most of us, it's easier to do nothing than to do something. They just don't text anymore. They email, they skype, they use google/gmail to call one another. He's hip to the fact that you're watching the phone so they use other methods. They are meeting secretly at work, come down to this room I'm in? Please. If you want to divorce him, start gathering your info...meaning financial. HE IS A LIAR AND A CHEATER. I shouldn't have gone off the SA aspect of it but HE IS LYING. EVERY DAY.

lynda said...

JenB said...
I am also interested in anyone's thoughts on the Faith Hedgepeth pocket dial call that was just released

____________________________

When this first came on the radar, I thought to myself after I read the article, the roommate and her BF did it. She came between them. He convinced the roommate that she was evil, etc. and the roommate chose the man. It is a woman that would write a note like that. I hope LE didn't allow themselves to become boxed in by the time stamp. It's obvious that what caused her murder is on the VM.

lynda said...

Jen..

Here is link to SA on 911 call...with Peter's analysis it's alarming to me that LE hasn't "cracked" the roommate. Since we now know more details, it is telling that roommate kept repeating she doesn't know how blood got there, she doesn't know what happened because it is obvious what happened. Faith's skull was crushed/fractured into pieces. Her body was covered in bruises. She doesn't know where the blood came from?? This poor girl had no face basically. Talk about minimization and guilty knowledge....she doesn't even let the 911 operator know that she is basically standing in a bloodbath.

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/911-call-faith-hedgepeth-murder-2012.html

tania cadogan said...

nothing cannot happen

Hey Jude said...

'What constitutes being cheated upon?'

That is a difficult one. I find myself needing to consider the question more in terms of being 'less than faithful' in a relationship (in the case of adultery, it would be plain 'unfaithful'), rather than 'cheating'.

'Cheating', to my mind, is something else. Similarities can be found, but it's not the same, or a word that would first present itself in relation to marital unfaithfulness. If someone first used it in that way, I might then also use it, as 'unfaithful' may not be a meaningful part of their thought or vocabulary - even so, I would find 'unfaithful' to be the better word.

Cheating is to gain an unfair advantage over anyone; taking credit for another's work or ideas, undermining, usurping, displacing, taking without giving, deliberate misrepresentation of self or another - exploiting people and situations. When I hear the word 'cheating' I think of someone who makes his or her move at chess, lets go of the piece, then realises there was a better move, so takes back the piece to make the better move. I would not make a serious friend of anyone who thought it was okay to change their move in chess - it's indicative of character, personal honour is not a high priority to such a person.

Cheating involves intention which requires a certain attitude, whereas being less than faithful need not be by design - if it was frequent, it would be too self-justifying to find it to be entirely accidental either. For instance, I am less than faithful when I speak critically of Mr Jude to others, whether he is present or not - sometimes I find myself doing that; it's not accurate to describe it as cheating - nevertheless, it is less than faithful, and also unfair. On the plus side, it would be worse if I made a major purchase without consulting him, or left a note on the fridge saying I'd gone to Barcelona and would be back in two weeks, or invited someone for an extended stay without checking it out with him - any of those would be to cheat him (of the choice, the holiday, and a say as to whether he feels like having a houseguest), and also to to be less than faithful, as any of those would be selfish and disregarding/dishonouring of him - that level of autonomous decision making, to me, would not be keeping good enough faith. In many ways, and to varying degrees, couples can be less than faithful to one another, yet without it needing to be about sex, which I think 'cheating' seems mainly to imply.

I think 'cheating' is not a strong enough word to describe adultery as it can also be used of a fairly minor issue such as a kid who has not yet learned better, cheating at a board game - to call adultery mere 'cheating' (which cheating can be, unlike adultery) would seem like an attempt to somehow lessen its significance: adultery would be all out 'unfaithfulness', and different from either 'cheating' or being 'less than faithful', which need not involve another person, much less have anything to do with sex - whatever form it takes, being less than faithful is a failing. I think it's likely to apply in one way or another, at some time or other, in any type of marriage - it could be likened, by those who think in such a way, to the distinction between venial and mortal sin.

---
That's probably as near as I am able to answer the question as formed. 'Cheating' doesn't lend itself to nuance - it's like the black or white of the chess board. Life is more interesting and complex, and holds many shades of grey. (Not that I've read the book, seen the movie, or bought the sweatshirt, honest:). I did have a bad experience with a chess game when I was young, which might show - I like to check out if a person plays chess, though weirdly, most of my friends do not.

JenB said...

Lynda - I had read Peter's post about the Faith Hedgepeth 911 call and that is what got me curious about the case. I like your theory about what happened. I couldn't come up with what would have happened to make her roommate turn on her, but i think you have it. That makes perfect sense. It is extremely alarming that LE hasn't made more progress on this case, all things considered. Who do you think the 2nd guy was? I assume it is his DNA in the room, and that it was his car they used to move her since Eriq's car was checked for evidence. I also wonder what the relationship between the roommate and Eriq was like after the murder. Surely other people noticed something!

lynda said...

Jen..

I think maybe the 2nd guy was probably one of the 5 men they saw on video coming into and out of Thrill that night. There's an obvious lie between 2 of those questioned about who was in what car when they went to Thrill. There's definitely something up with that 'group" of men and all this talk about how none of them knew this "unknown roommate".

I think the biggest red arrow should still be pointed at Rosario and Eriq tho. LE found out that Rosario was NOT ALONE when she found Faith's body!! That Marisol was with her?? According to LE reports in detailing the scene, they made no mention of anyone being in the apt. with Rosario upon their arrival and that is certainly something that would have been documented. Rosario certainly made no mention that she was not alone. She took that other girl with her so she would have witness that she just "discovered" the body. Why it took the other woman so long to contact LE and say she was there (6 months) is beyond me. Fear maybe? I also think they (Karena and/or Eriq or another man) gave Faith something at the bar to make her sick and have to go home... to separate her from the herd...she is now sick/drugged at home by herself. Karena takes her home at 2:30? So why do we care that Faith was seen with a guy outside? He wasn't the last to see her..KARENA was. LE has kept such a tight lid on evidence and just now are releasing how she was killed..I think that really damaged the case.
Eriq Takoy Jones and Karena Rosario have never made a statement regarding the murder and seem to have literally dropped off the face of earth. Neither has a FB page. Eriq was arrested in March 2015 in Raleigh NC and it shows he has an address of Chapel HIll, NC. Traffic violation and marijuana. Then he was re-arrested in May 2015 for failure to appear for his court date on the violation. Karena left North Carolina right after Faith's murder and returned to New Jersey. She doesn't answer calls and has never given a statement that I can find in a public arena. So, they are not together anymore. But Karena fled and doesn't speak. Sounds fishy. Eriq could have also told her that Faith "hit on him" to turn Karena against her and that would fit with the "jealous" (woman's word) bitch on the bag. I think LE knows that they killed her, they just can't prove it.
Also, I don't think the car would yield anything, he lived in the same complex. They both probably showered after the murder in the apt. If they indeed did drug her at the bar, they had a plan. This wasn't a spur of the moment action.

Here is a pretty good article that suggests a possible cover up because of LE mishandling evidence and such...

https://synapse.atavist.com/sealings

lynda said...

Jen...also something new taken from website linked below. The voice analyzer thought the male was "rapping" after murder? Eriq was an up and coming rapper at that time.

I saw the airing- it was excellent- to the point where if I had to predict the first case ever for 'Crime Watch Daily' to solve this would be it. They show an audio recording where Faith may have pocket dialed into her voicemail during her murder. This was for me a bit uncomfortable to watch but the voice analysis expert- who has impressive credentials says it sounds like one female and two male voices. It sounds like Faith is screaming for help. He feels he hears the name "Eriq" and the words "I can't believe you did it Rosie", and it seems like a man is rapping to himself afterwards. The only problem with the voicemail is the time stamp is about six hours before her murder but the analysis expert explains it could be a technical glitch. I personally have to say to me it did sound like Faith's murder taking place and being recorded.

Crime Watch Daily tried to get in contact with Eriq Jones, but he declined through Facebook and told them his lawyer wants their contact info. Crime Watch Daily host Matt Doran tried to once again get an interview by going to Eriq's house in North Carolina but his mother answered and kicked them off their property. According to Doran, Jones got in his car and followed Crime Watch Daily's vehicle for 30 minutes afterwards before trailing off.

It's also important to know Faith's roommate and Eriq's girlfriend was named Karen Rosario in relation to the possible "Rosie" heard on the voicemail. Many people on CWD's Facebook page are wondering if Rosie is short for Rosario.

I'll post all the segments once Crime Watch Daily uploads the case to their website

Read more: http://amwfans.com/thread/2049/unknown-faith-hedgepeth-killer-carolina#ixzz41OlEJbrm