A Bronx woman who ran a day care out of her apartment called the abuse that led to the death of a baby in her care: "wrestling."
Athena Skeeter, 40, was charged with manslaughter and child endangerment in the death of little 20-month-old Cardell Williamson.
It is best when we have direct quotes. It is difficult when the press paraphrases, or breaks up quotes. However, here we seem to have enough for analysis:
"I was wrestling with Cardell," Skeeter told police, according to court documents. "I flipped him on the bed. … I lifted him by one arm and one leg and threw him to the floor."
Note the word "with" when found between people, indicates distance.
Note the strong use of "I" and past tense verbs.
She is speaking truthful sentences. These are the things she did to a toddler.
After Cardell landed on the hardwood floor, Skeeter allegedly told police she stepped on the toddler's stomach three times, but argued that she "didn't use full force."
Which indicates the use of force when she stomped him.
"I then threw my son on top of Cardell and stepped on his stomach three times," she told cops. "Cardell acted different after that."
She stomped the child. Even if the number 3 appears, and the number of stomps is debated, that she stomped him is true. Look at the pronoun "I" and the past tense verbs to guide you on what she did. I bet the autopsy will agree, perhaps not with severity or number, but will verify that what she said she did, she did. She had beaten this child before.
After being stomped on numerous times, the child threw up and his head kept tilting, Skeeter told police.
"He couldn't walk on his own," Skeeter told cops. "I put him in the bathtub and put cold water on his face."
There is no deceit in these sentences, even if the number of stomps is not accurate (3), as she described, basically, the "wrestling moves" she put upon the child, which killed the child.
She beat him to death.
Skeeter told police she left the bathroom to get a chair and when she returned, Williamson's head was in the now steaming-hot water.
"Cardell was unresponsive and had burns on his arm and face," she continued. "My mother was in her room the whole time. I was in my room with the boys playing."
Next, the boy's father spoke. How close was the father and son?
The boy's father, Carlyle Williamson, said his son came home before with bruises and a split lip but that the day care operator always had an excuse.
"I hope she gets charged to the fullest extent of the law," he said. "She took a presence from my life that will never be replaced." Note that the child was a "presence" in his life.
Woman hit in head with pellet gun in alleged hate crime while walking through Central Park: police
The 36-year-old victim told the Daily News she was attacked early Monday by a group of black youths who screamed that 'all white people suck.' The NYPD’s Hate Crimes Task Force is investigating.
From the NY Daily News: Statement Analysis is added to the article in bold type.
JOHN MARSHALL MANTEL FOR NEW YORK DAILY NEWSA 36-year-old woman says she was shot in the head with a pellet gun by verbally abusive black teenagers yelling racial epithets in Central Park.
A 36-year-old woman walking through Central Park was shot in the back of the head with a pellet gun in an apparent hate crime, police said Saturday.
The shaken victim told the Daily News she was leaving the park at W. 60th St. and West Drive about 12:05 a.m. Monday when she strolled past a group of black youths.
The two men and three women — all in their late teens or early 20s — said nothing as they passed by. But moments later, the woman felt a “horrible pain” in the back of her head.
“My hand went up to my head, and there was blood gushing everywhere,” said the woman, who asked to be identified only as Hanna.
Please note "my hand went to my head" is passive language. This removes her from the responsibility of controlling her hand.
“I turned around, and I said, ‘What are you doing? Why are you doing this to me? What's wrong with you people?’”
One of the women immediately unleashed a barrage of racial epithets.
“F---- you, you f------ white b----,” the woman hissed, Hanna recalled.
Did "Hanna" actually say the woman "hissed" these words?
Then one of the men popped his head out from behind a tree and joined in the racially fueled verbal attack.
“All white people suck,” the man hollered. “F--- white people.”
The group fled, leaving Hanna bloodied and in tears.
Police released surveillance footage of three of the suspects and a sketch of one in the attack in Central Park at W. 60th St. and West Drive early Monday.
“I was starting to go into shock,” she said. “There was a lot of blood.”
She was only "starting" to go into shock, not that she went into shock.
"I bled a lot" is personal. "There was a lot of blood" is passive. This is distancing language.
After a crew of cops and paramedics arrived, Hanna was rushed to Roosevelt Hospital, where she was treated and released.
The police on Saturday released surveillance footage of three of the suspects and a sketch of one of them. The NYPD’s Hate Crimes Task Force is investigating.
"It's a hate crime — for no reason at all,” Hanna told The News.
It is was a hate crime, hate is the reason. "for no reason" is emphasized with "at all."
Police should question this woman's actions.
“I was just walking by. There was no sort of eye movement. There was no altercation, confrontation, anything like that.”
She does not say
"I was walking by" but "just" walking by. The word "just" is used when comparing two or more things. What is she comparing it to?
Why was she there?
She compares walking by with something and police need to know why.
Note that within an attack, the woman tells us what did not happen and this non event is quite specific: eye movement. Most people say "eye contact"; for her to be there long enough to note "eye movement" tells me that there is more that happened than what she is saying. Someone was looking at something that caused a problem. Drug purchase? I don't know, but there is more here than what she is saying.
There is more to the account. Did she say something racist? Time for Hanna to take a polygraph.
Hanna, who lives in Manhattan with her husband and works in human resources, described herself as “a typical New Yorker.”
“I've lived here for awhile. I have not had these types of issues,” she said. “I have friends and family of all backgrounds. That’s what I find so amazing, that people are that hateful.”
“There’s no room for hate here,” Hanna added.
“We all bleed red blood. There's no room for hatred. Not in New York. Not anywhere.”
Note the preaching attitude of the victim.
There is enough here for police to doubt her account. Did she antagonize the attackers? The passivity suggests that, perhaps, there was more to her story than what she has said and police will have to learn what else this woman said, and why she feels the need to remove herself from something quite personal.
It may be that there was something that preceded the confrontation
When I deal with an applicant in Statement Analysis training, it is often at the request of the subject's superior, particularly in business.
Statement Analysis training provides traction for any career in which communication discernment is beneficial. I often focus upon Human Resources because:
1. Many who rise within Human Resources are naturally talented
2. Human Resource interviewing has a larger impact upon the health of a company than most recognize.
3. Human Resources often are needed for internal investigations, complaints, disputes and even rights violations and suits. Expertise in interviewing can cause one to rise through the ranks, perhaps even into senior management of a company that recognizes excellence.
I also appeal to therapists, counselors, psychologists and social workers as the social services field is an incessant unpredictable land mine of change. In fact, surprise is the only constant, as a problem can arise without notice, due to the complexity of human nature.
Many professionals can find their careers moving ahead due to the ability to discern, directly from the training in analysis of words, if the applicant is predisposed to this particular field, and will apply lots and lots of practice.
I liken it to one who learns all the basic chords on the guitar; knowing where to place the fingers. This can be done in just a few weeks, or even days, yet it takes years of practice to reach proficiency. Not a "natural talent", I kept a journal of five years of my practice, taking video lessons from www.homespuntapes.com.
I love playing and can play for myself or family but as I look back on my practice diary, I averaged almost 10 hours per week, at one point, for two straight years and 1000 hour mark realized great gains in playing. After that point, I continued to work hard but found the gains realized were diminished. I am not a natural.
When Happy Traum heard a song I recorded, he said, "Don't quit your day job."
Ouch.
Imagine more than 1,000 hours dedicated to Mr. Traum's specific trainings and recommendations and hearing that?
I smile as it is true.
I will, however, play for children and grandchildren at Christmas and if I was at a restaurant and there was enough alcohol flowing, I could quietly pick the guitar in the background for up to 60 minutes and make people smile. Yet, when listening to the recordings, the imperfections rise to the surface as the gap between amateur and professional is vast. I am not a natural talent.
I love chess, but must work, repeatedly, (against my aging brain) to be mediocre. I am not a talent in chess, but enjoy playing.
Who is good at lie detection?
Once you dismiss the "Lie to Me" television series myths, you are left with, surprise, surprise, hard work and a decision whether or not once possesses talent...
or not.
In the "real" world, such as Human Resources, a professional cannot lean into some one's face and say, "Yep. There it is! You're lying, mate!" and retain his or her position. It's entertaining on television, but then again, some people think Chuck Norris single-handed defeating 1000 North Vietnamese soldiers entertaining, or think that the Zombie Apocalypse will provide business opportunities for food storage.
Professionals cannot rely upon nonsense as they know that peoples' lives are at stake. It is one thing to post anonymously, "I know she is lying! I know it!" and quite another thing for a professional to make a decision based upon analysis.
Accuracy is key.
Regarding "talent" in Statement Analysis, I present the work of Kaaryn Gough, who's work here at the Statement Analysis blog is well documented. She has not only the self discipline of staying within principle, but an amazing (and rare) imagination that allows her to "enter into" the statement, in a way in which John Douglas appeared to "enter into the mind" of serial killers. (Ever read Mind Hunter?) Her work in the Dylan Redwine case reveals her talent, as well as her commitment to excellence.
In conducting training seminars the past few years, I have been able to divide applicants into two categories initially, before getting into such other attributes such as:
talent drive commitment perseverance humility
and so on.
I first begin with:
Suspicious by nature or Trusting by nature, and work from there.
Suspicious by nature is the category in which training will not be useful or beneficial. This is not a moral judgement, for many good people are suspicious by nature due to early childhood trauma.
They struggle with the single most important principle in lie detection:
Presupposition of truth.
Avinoam Sapir, the grandfather of all Statement Analysis (no matter the brand label) calls it "total faith in the subject", that is, the words chosen should always be considered reliable and trustworthy, unless we are confronted with something quite unexpected.
This means that we approach a statement believing the subject is telling the truth and as he chooses his words in a micro-second, these words will guide us.
In larger trainings, I begin with a "pop quiz", verbally, with random statements and ask aloud for students to raise their hands if they believe the statement is deceptive.
I take careful note of the hands that continually go up at truthful statements.
This suspicious person will not be successful in Statement Analysis training and can, in fact, cause much difficulty with this new "weapon."
There is second, sub class of those who are "suspicious by nature" which I must address. This classification may or may not be born of childhood trauma, but perhaps by childhood neglect.
It is the liar.
The liar, for this purpose, is one who lies when there appears to be no reason to lie.
It is not the "polite liar" who likes to say "you look so slim!" while my belly strains the leather fibers in my belt.
It is not the "panic liar" who says, "I was at work at 9!" when, in fact, it was only 9:20AM, who later feels remorse over the lie.
This is the person of whom lying is a childhood pattern that is so ingrained, that he or she will lie even when there is no cause to lie, and expects to get away with the lie, no matter how transparent. This one lacks self awareness (or sometimes called, "emotional intelligence") and the humility necessary for self corrective learning.
We all project.
The greater the self awareness, the more readily acknowledged is the projection and the correction of such, which is why emotional intelligence is often prized above grade point average on a job interview.
In short, they believe everyone is lying, and everyone is guilty. They see guilt everywhere.
They believe that everyone is lying because of projection.
Statement Analysis is based upon the presupposition of truth.
We begin with the statement (written or oral) to guide us because it is true. Even when being deceptive, we find that most sentences are true. We have analyzed statements here that were 100% truthful, line upon line, without a single lie, yet we concluded:
Deception Indicated
This is because 90% plus of all deception comes from withholding information. (not from a quirky eyebrow, or a twitch of the lower facial muscles).
Lie Detection is hard work.
It takes solid training and then it takes many hours of practice each week.
Even after years of work, I still like to send a critical statement to another analyst for review. This coincides with Mr. Sapir's "40% Principle" in which the human brain, intelligence and emotions in play, follow through a statement for a conclusion, but if the same statement is put away for a "cooling off period" of time, in which, especially, there is an emotional disconnect (or simple forgetfulness), the same statement may yield up to 40% more information for the analyst!
This is a tough principle because often a professional is waiting for an answer from me, yet I have reviewed statements years later, agreed with my analysis, yet asked, "Why did I miss this??" in frustration.
It is, I believe, due to the emotional 'train ride' that a statement takes one on, and is why anonymous letter work takes extraordinary imagination organically linked with humility because, sometimes a simple word will make you change from:
young, uneducated female, to
middle aged, highly educated male, to...
Mr. Sapir says that it is not just that every sentence matters, or even that every word matters, but that even a single letter, or a single punctuation mark may contain information not readily seen.
One more sub-category is the street police officer who scores poorly on lie detection tests. This may be due to becoming slowly jaded, over time. I do not dismiss this category as "unteachable" until I am able to learn if the subject:
a. possesses good self awareness
b. was previously a trusting person
c. is honest by nature
The jaded, but truthful officer will learn, if application is given.
2. The Gullible
I smile when I hear someone say "Oh, I am so gullible. I think everyone is telling the truth."
As an instructor, this is my favorite applicant. This person will not struggle with presupposing truth. The only struggle this person may have (given the other factors are in place: humility, intellect, drive and ambition, and so forth) is with the Reliable Denial. It is, at times, hard to embrace that something this simple can be as accurate as it is. More on this another time.
The gullible one is self described, which is key. If one does not see his own gullibility, we have something entirely different to work with.
The one who has the intelligence of discernment, the emotional intelligence of self awareness, yet believes that everyone is telling the truth is telling you something very important:
He or she is a most honest person.
Human Resource professional: don't miss this.
The person who lies in the interview process is many times more likely to:
fall and file worker's comp,
lie about work hours,
cause disruption in morale,
steal anything from product (shrinkage) to clients (poaching).
There is nothing good to come from this problem-starter who joins your company.
The gullible must be self aware.
The non-aware gullible person is a danger.
Years ago, I met a young man, shook hands, and spoke to him, introducing myself, and simply asking him a few questions about his employment.
"How long have you been here?" "Where did you work previously?
Seemingly innocuous questions of which I ask routinely, of employees I am introduced to. I know that they are nervous and the order in which they speak shows priority.
I walked away from him with the mental note of "drugs" in my mind, and reminded myself to call him in for an interview.
He was polite, intelligent and somewhat 'charming' (as that goes) and when I returned to the office, I spoke to the person who interviewed him. He was described as "charming" and knew all the right answers.
The next day I received a phone call stating that he was observed 'in town', pulling over, getting out of his car at what appeared to be random stops, going over to another car, leaning in, and then getting back in his car, off to his "next stop."
I called him and asked him, "Hey, where are you right now?" and he said, "in town,"
I said, "Have you made any stops?"
He answered, "Have I made any stops here? Well, I guess I stopped to get something for my client to eat."
Readers here know that when one answers a question with a question, the question, itself, is sensitive.
I instructed him to return to the office, and spoke to him for a few minutes.
I said to him that he appeared to have a "second job" that, as an older man to a younger man, I cautioned him that it would lead to no good. I told him that I would accept his resignation and leave things at that, unless he felt a need for further explanation on my part.
He said "Uh, no thank you."
How did I know, 24 hours prior, that he was involved in the drug trade?
In the 2 minutes that he and I spoke, introducing ourselves one to another, he mentioned "medicine" in a way that was not necessary.
The brain knows, as Kaaryn says.
When he saw me, he immediately thought of drugs and the clients we serve have medications that are desirable for re-sale, so extreme measures must be taken for safety. '
If you were dealing drugs on the side and your boss approached you, what would your guilty mind be thinking of?
The following day, I received letters from staff stating that they believed their co-worker was a drug dealer. One called me and said, "When he got back from meeting with you, he told me that I better lie about his stops. I was in the car with him and he didn't want you to know about his stops. He said he had to buy cigarettes at one stop, but I watched him go into the foyer, but not into the store. He handed a man something and the man handed him something but I could not tell what it was. "
I assured them that their co-worker was their former co-worker.
Imagine the damage that could be done to lives including the co-worker who, if there had been a stop and search, could have been arrested "in concert" with the drug dealer.
Statement Analysis provides traction to careers in ways you might not have considered.
The self aware, truthful person will often project this honesty upon others
This subject is a good candidate for lie detection.
The suspicious person, whether due to trauma, the job, or the lack of instruction in childhood against deception, is heavily challenged to learn Statement Analysis and can take its tools, and use them to harm the innocent, and can bring destruction upon lives and companies.
The habitual, or pathological liar will do harm.
Not everyone is meant to handle a very sharp razor. My 12 year old is learning to shave, but not with my straight razor.
We are responsible for the use of our tools. The same 12 year old plays hockey and is told, repeatedly, by his coaches: "you are responsible for your stick" and "accidental" whackings with a hockey stick are his responsibility.
Statement Analysis should not be used to needless hurt, ridicule or destroy the dignity of another. It should not be used to reveal embarrassing personal information, either.
Being caught in a lie, in an investigation, is humiliating, which is the result of lying, but it is in the personal realm that the words of Mr. Sapir still echo within me:
practice on your friends and you might find yourself without friends.
In public crimes, analysis reveals the truth. You have, however, seen some sensitivity indicators, from the innocent, ignored.
I have also written extensively on the majority of time, within the business world, in which no word should be spoken against the lie. You won't survive in business, for example, if you point out each time your supervisor is deceptive. This is where the self awareness comes into play. There are many fields in which confidentiality means "withholding information" and gaps in language are expected.
Embrace human frailties, especially as your skills grow. There is a sadness to "knowing" and it may make you feel "alone."
Yet, "there goes I, but for the Grace of God" should be remembered. We all make mistakes. Those who grow from them are the most successful.
Mercy and justice are not mutually exclusive.
We are hoping to expand our Statement Analysis services to include audio files, transcription services, and online courses available via download.
Part 5: Geographical Layout of the House This is now Part 5 and I have it scored thus far: Lizzie 3.5 Prosecutor .5 Like a chess match, 1 point is for the win, and 1/2 point for a draw. Even though there may be contradictions in her answers, this is a Statement Analysis perspective, and not so much commentary. Thus far, the prosecutor has asked leading questions, and has failed to follow through on weak points. Lizzie Borden has been, especially evident in parts 1 through 3, remarkably restraint in her answers. Her short reply of "yes, sir" and "no, sir" left little for the prosecutor to work with, yet, the break within this pattern should have been mined for sensitivity. It wasn't. It makes for a rather boring read, does it not? Will he now begin to hone in on her language?
Q. Whereabouts was the sewing machine? A. In the corner between the north and west side. Q. Did you hear the sewing machine going? A. I did not. Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning? A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there and the room had been overhauled. "I did not" was the answer to the previous question and she should have repeated it. Deviating from it, with "had not" is followed with further information, which indicates an increase in sensitivity for Borden. She reports what she did not do until a certain other activity took place. Borden is giving more information which is not in her best interest. This continues with the next question, though it may be argued that she is cutting off the prosecutor's follow up question. It is a dangerous and inadvisable game. It is something most defense attorneys insist a client refrain from. Borden has a strong intellect. Do you, to this point, have an opinion on her personality? Q. If she had remained downstairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her? A. If she had remained downstairs, I should have. If she had remained in her room, I should not have. Q. Where was that? A. Over the kitchen. Q. To get to that room she would have to go through the kitchen? A. To get up the back stairs. Q. That is the way she was in the habit of going? A. Yes sir, because the other doors were locked. That Borden feels the need to explain, geographics of the home, is sensitive. Q. If she had remained downstairs or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her? A. I should have seen her if she had stayed downstairs. If she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her. Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room. If she had gone to her own room, she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs and subsequently have gone down and gone back again? The prosecutor is setting up a route in which Lizzie Borden must have taken. A. Yes sir. I think that she is now uncomfortable. Short sentences usually are logical, whereas long sentences usually are emotional. Usually. I wonder if she put the brakes on her answers because she recognizes the geographical positioning that the prosecutor has laid out as detrimental to her case. Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her room or downstairs? He is speaking more to the judge/jury than he is to Lizzie Borden. A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came downstairs, for two or three minutes, I went down cellar to the water closet. Q. After that, you were where you practically commanded the view of the first story the rest of the time? This is specifically strong language and is intended, likely, to both influence judge/jury as well as set back Lizzie Borden. Her answer shows success: A. I think so. To "think" so is a weak assertion, allowing herself, or others to "think" differently. This is a strong point for the prosecution. Q. When you went upstairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine? "as you say you did" is not only a reminder to Borden, but he is willing to reveal his own disbelief, and cause listeners to also doubt Borden's credibility. Remember the horror of the Casey Anthony verdict? Jurors, reflecting our sad state of intelligence and education, said, "we could tell that she did it, but they just didn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt" begging the question: Then, why did you think she did it? A. No, I did not see the sewing machine because she had shut that room up. "No, sir" would have been strong. "No" would have been strong, but the additional words, including "because" show a weakness as she needs to explain. Q. What do you mean? A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out. Borden still refrains from using Mrs. Borden's name. This continues to reveal her cold personality to the observers. Q. Was it a room with a window? A. It has three windows. Q. A large room? A. The size of the parlor; a pretty fair-sized room. Q. It is the guest room? A. Yes, the spare room. This was not a warm, friendly household. Borden enters the language of the prosecutor, which is expected, but changes "guest" room (via affirmation of "yes") to "spare" room. A "spare" room is not one to house visitors. The prosecutor's own personality (in the element of hospitality) is revealed in that he does not enter her language here ("spare room", as she 'corrected' him), but remains within his own: "guest" room: Q. Where the sewing machine was was the guest room? A. Yes sir. Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room, until 11 o'clock? He is directing this towards judge/jury (audience) A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed. "suppose" is weak Note the avoidance of Mrs. Borden's name continues. We will now take note that if this changes, there must be an emotional context showing us the reason. Q. That would be in the back part? A. Yes sir. Q. She would have to go by you twice to do that? A. Unless she went when I was in my room that few minutes. Q. That would not be time enough for her to go and make her own bed and come back again. he is not buying it. A. Sometimes she stayed up longer and sometimes shorter. I don't know. Truthful testimony, in an open statement, tells us what is known, said, heard, seen, and so forth.
Q. Otherwise than that, she would have to go in your sight? He is pinning this point to her in a strong manner. A. I should have to have seen her once. I don't know that I need to have seen her more than once. This is a weak denial. The Prosecutor is making inroads into her testimony. He is, geographically, in the right spot and has placed Lizzie Borden in the right spot. Q. You did not see her at all? A. No sir, not after the dining room. Everyone has a subjective, internal and quite personal dictionary. He needs to explore the words "see her" to find out, perhaps by exploring the distancing language of the pronouns, if "seeing her" is only to see her when alive. Murderers can differentiate much like child molesters. Recall the principle that "no man can molest his own daughter" linguistically. The molester "changes" his daughter into a "girl" or "person" or some other name, in order to accomplish his sexual perversion upon her. Many thieves do not "steal" and can pass a polygraph when asked if they "stole"; they "take." Q. What explanation can you suggest as to the whereabouts of your mother from the time you saw her in the dining room and she said her work in the spare room was all done, until 11 o'clock? powerfully loaded question. He does not let her "answer" but only "suggest" and again, uses "your mother" and not "step mother" or "Mrs. Borden." The time for leading questions comes when the yes or no, and open ended questions, and follow up questions have been asked, within a given topic. Analytical Interviewing: 1. Open Ended Questions 2. Questions based upon language subject uses 3. Questions based upon evidence (including "yes or no") 4. Finally, direct leading questions (in interrogations, particularly, which include threats and challenges).
A. I don't know. I think she went back into the spare room and whether she came back again or not, I don't know. That has always been a mystery. Lizzie Borden is off her game now. She should have stopped with "I don't know" but instead seeks to turn away the tide. She fails. The prosecutor continues to show his belief in the incredulity of her responses: Q. Can you think of anything she could be doing in the spare room? A. Yes sir. I know what she used to do sometimes. She kept her best cape she wore on the street in there and she used occasionally to go up there to get it and to take it into her room. She kept a great deal in the guest room drawers. She used to go up there and get things and put things. She used those drawers for her own use. Note the change of language. Language should change when there is a change of reality. If none is evident, it is a signal that the subject may not be speaking from experiential memory.
Note that the expectation is that people only tell us what they know, yet here she feels the need to emphasize. I believe that this answer would not pass a polygraph.
Q. That connects her with her own room again, to reach which she had to go downstairs and come up again. A. Yes. Q. Assuming that she did not go into her own room, I understand you to say she could not have gone to her own room without your seeing her. A. She could while I was down cellar. The avoidance of the name of the step mother indicates distancing language, via following the pronouns. The distance is consistent and suggests animosity.
Will the prosecutor press upon the personal animosity ("distance") exhibited in the language? He next goes into what was (or wasn't) said, in Part 6. End of Part 5 with a victory by the prosecution. Thus far Lizzie Borden 3.5 Prosecution 1.5
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If you would like to help:
Q. You went down immediately you came down, within a few minutes, and you did not see her when you came back. A. No sir. Q. After the time she must have remained in the guest chamber? A. I don't know. Q. So far as you can judge? A. So far as I can judge she might have been out of the house or in the house. Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house? A. She told me she had had a note. Somebody was sick and she said, "I am going to get the dinner on the way" and asked me what I wanted for dinner. Q. Did you tell her? A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything. Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone? A. I supposed she had gone. Q. Did you hear her come back? A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went. Q. When you found your father dead, you supposed your mother had gone? A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in, "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in. I wish you would see if she is in her room." Q. You supposed she was out at the time? A. I understood so. I did not suppose anything about it. Q. Did she tell you where she was going? A. No sir. Q. Did she tell you who the note was from? A. No sir. Q. Did you ever see the note? A. No sir. Q. Do you know where it is now? A. No sir. Q. She said she was going out that morning? A. Yes sir. Q. I shall have to ask you once more about that morning. Do you know what the family ate for breakfast? A. No sir. Q. Had the breakfast all been cleared away when you got down? A. Yes sir. Q. I want you to tell me just where you found the people when you got down that you did find there. A. I found Mrs. Borden in the dinning room I found my father in the sitting room. Q. And Maggie? A. Maggie was coming in the back door with her pail and brush. Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at the time? A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast. She asked me what I wanted for dinner I told her nothing. She said she was going out and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her. Q. Where did you go to then? A. Into the kitchen. Q. Where then? A. Down cellar. Q. Gone perhaps five minutes? A. Perhaps not more than that. Possibly a little bit more. Q. When you came back did you see your mother? A. I did not. I supposed she had gone out. Q. She did not tell you where she was going? A. No sir. Q. When you came back, was your father there? A. Yes sir. Q. What was he doing? A. Reading the paper. Q. Did you eat any breakfast? A. No sir. I don't remember whether I ate a molasses cookie or not. I did not eat any regularly prepared breakfast. Q. Was it was usual for your mother to go out? A. Yes sir, she went out every morning nearly and did the marketing. Q. Was it was usual for her to go away from dinner. A. Yes sir sometimes, not very often. Q. How often, say? A. Oh I should not think more than---well, I don't know, more than once in three months, perhaps. Q. Now I call your attention to the fact that twice yesterday you told me, with some explicitness, that when your father came in, you were just coming downstairs. A. No I did not. I beg your pardon. Q. That you were on the stairs at the time your father was let in, you said with explicitness. Do you now say that you did not say so? A. I said I thought first I was on the stairs; then I remembered I was in the kitchen when he came in. Q. First you thought you were in the kitchen; afterwards, your remembered you were on the stairs? A. As I said, I thought I was on the stairs. Then I remembered I was in the kitchen when he came in. Q. Did you go into the front part of the house after your father came in? A. After he came in from down street, I was in the sitting room with him. Q. Did you go into the front hall afterwards? A. No sir. Q. At no time? A. No sir. Q. Excepting the two or three minutes you were down cellar, were you away from the house until your father came in? A. No sir. Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went upstairs? A. I went upstairs before he went out. Q. You mean you went up there to sew a button on? A. I basted a piece of tape on. Q. Do you remember you did not say that yesterday? A. I don't think you asked me. I told you yesterday I went upstairs directly after I came up from down cellar, with the clean clothes. Q. You now say after your father went out, you did not go upstairs at all? A. No sir, I did not. Q. When Maggie came in there washing the windows, you did not appear from the front part of the house? A. No sir. Q. When your father was let in, you did not appear from upstairs? A. No sir, I was in the kitchen. Q. That is so? A. Yes sir, to the best of my knowledge. Q. After your father went out, you remained there, either in the kitchen or dining room all the time? A. I went into the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers. Q. One of the three rooms? A. Yes sir. Q. So it would have been extremely difficult for anybody to have gone through the kitchen and dining room and front hall without your seeing them? A. They could have gone from the kitchen into the sitting room while I was in the dining room, if there was anybody to go. Q. Then into the front hall? A. Yes sir. Q. You were in the dining room ironing? A. Yes sir, part of the time. Q. You were in all the three rooms? A. Yes sir. Q. A large portion of that time the girl was out of doors? A. I don't know where she was. I did not see her. I supposed she was out of doors, as she had the pail and brush. Q. You knew she was washing windows? A. She told me she was going to. I did not see her do it. Q. For a large portion of the time, you did not see the girl? A. No sir. Q. So far as you know, you were alone in the lower part of the house a large portion of the time after your father went away and before he came back? A. My father did not go away, I think, until somewhere about 10, as near as I can, remember. He was with me downstairs. Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house? A. Maggie had come in and gone upstairs. Q. After he went out and before he came back, a large portion of the time after your father went out and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house? A So far as I know, I was. Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked? A So far as I know. Q. And never was unlocked at all? A I don't think it was. Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again? A. I don't know whether she locked it up again after that or not. Q. It locks itself? A. The spring lock opens. Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside? A. Sometimes you can press it open. Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the outside? A. I have no reason to suppose so. Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the public came? A. Nothing that I know of. Q. What were you doing in the kitchen when your father came home? A. I think I was eating a pear when he came in. Q. What had you been doing before that? A. Been reading a magazine. Q. Were you making preparations to iron again? A. I had sprinkled my clothes and was waiting for the flat. I sprinkled the clothes before he went out. Q. Had you built up the fire again? A. I put in a stick of wood. There was a few sparks. I put in a stick of wood to try to heat the flat. Q. You had then started the fire? A. Yes sir. Q. The fire was burning when he came in? A. No sir, but it was smoldering and smoking as though it would come up. Q. Did it come up after he came in? A. No sir. Q. Did you do any more ironing? A. I did not. I went in with him and did not finish. Q. You did not iron any more after your father came in? A. No sir. Q. Was the ironing board put away? A. No sir, it was on the dining room table. Q. When was it put away? A. I don't know. Somebody put it away after the affair happened. Q. You did not put it away? A. No sir. Q. Was it on the dining room table when you found your father killed? A. I suppose so. Q. You had not put it away then? A. I had not touched it. Q. How soon after your father came in before Maggie went upstairs? A. I don't know. I did not see her. Q. Did you see her after your father came in? A. Not after she let him in. Q. How long was your father in the house before you found him killed? A. I don't know exactly because I went out to the barn. I don't know what time he came home. I don't think he had been home more than 15 or 20 minutes. I am not sure. Q. When you went out to the barn, where did you leave your father? A. He had laid down on the living room lounge, taken off his shoes and put on his slippers and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way. Q. Where did you leave him? A. On the sofa. Q. Was he asleep? A. No sir. Q. Was he reading? A. No sir. Q. What was the last thing you said to him? A. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way. Then I went into the kitchen and from there to the barn. Q. Whereabouts in the barn did you go? A. Upstairs. Q. To the second story of the barn? A. Yes sir. Q. How long did you remain there? A. I don't know. Fifteen or 20 minutes. Q. What doing? A. Trying to find lead for a sinker. Q. What made you think there would be lead for a sinker up there? A. Because there was some there. Q. Was there not some by the door? A. Some pieces of lead by the open door, but there was a box full of old things upstairs. Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn? A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor. Q. Where was that box you say was upstairs, containing lead? A. There was a kind of a work bench. Q. Is it there now? A. I don't know sir. Q. How long since you have seen it there? A. I have not been out there since that day. Q. Had you been in the barn before? A. That day? No sir. Q. How long since you had been in the barn before? A. I don't think I had been into it, I don't know as I had, in three months. Q. When you went out, did you unfasten the screen door? A. I unhooked it to get out. Q. It was hooked until you went out? A. Yes sir. Q. It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in? A. I suppose so. I don't know. Q. Do you know when she did get through washing the outside? A. I don't know. Q. Did you know she washed the windows inside? A. I don't know. Q. Did you see her washing the windows inside? A. I don't know. Q. You don't know whether she washed the dining room window and sitting room windows inside? A. I did not see her. Q. If she did, would you not have seen her? A. I don't know. She might be in one room and I in another. Q. Do you think she might have gone to work and washed all the windows in the dining room and you not know it? A. I don't know, I am sure, whether I should or not. I might have seen her and not know it. Q. Miss Borden, I am trying in good faith to get all the doings that morning, of yourself and Miss Sullivan and I have not succeeded in doing it. Do you desire to give me any information or not? A. I don't know it! I don't know what your name is! Q. It is certain beyond reasonable doubt she was engaged in washing the windows in the dining room or sitting room when your father came home. Do you mean to say you know nothing of either of those operations? A. I knew she washed the windows outside; that is, she told me so. She did not wash the windows in the kitchen because I was in the kitchen most of the time. Q. The dining room and sitting room, I said. A. I don't know. Q. It is reasonably certain she washed the windows in the dining room and sitting room inside while your father was out and was engaged in that operation when your father came home. Do you mean to say you know nothing of it? A. I don't know whether she washed the windows in the sitting room and dining room or not. Q. Can you give me any information how it happened at that particular time you should go into the chamber of the barn to find a sinker to go to Marion with to fish the next Monday? A. I was going to finish my ironing. My flats were not hot. I said to myself, "I will go and try and find that sinker. Perhaps by the time I get back, the flats will be hot". That is the only reason. Q. How long had you been reading an old magazine before you went to the barn at all? A. Perhaps half an hour. Q. Had you got a fish line? A. Not here. We had some at the farm. Q. Had you got a fish hook? A. No sir. Remarkable restraint by the subject who was likely well prepared by her defense. She continually gives short answers, offering little information, which, by this time, frustrated the prosecutor. Q. Had you got any apparatus for fishing at all? A. Yes, over there. Q. Had you any sinkers over there? A. I think there were some. It is so long since I have been there, I think there were some. Q. You had no reason to suppose you were lacking sinkers? A. I don't think there were any on my lines. Q. Where were your lines? A. My fish lines were at the farm here. Q. What made you think there were no sinkers at the farm on your lines? A. Because some time ago when I was there, I had none. Q. How long since you used the fish lines? A. Five years, perhaps. Q. You left them at the farm then? A. Yes sir. Q. And you have not seen them since? A. Yes sir. In his frustration, he asked leading questions. What we do not know, from the transcripts, how often he used silence to attempt to elicit more words from her. She is focused solely on the specific question, and refuses to take the bait and explain anything beyond the scope of the question. Q. It occurred to you after your father came in it would be a good time to go to the barn after sinkers and you had no reason to suppose there was not abundance of sinkers at the farm and abundance of lines? A. The last time I was there, there were some lines. Q. Did you not say before you presumed there were sinkers at the farm? A. I don't think I said so. Q. You did say so exactly. Do you now say you presume there were not sinkers at the farm? A. I don't think there were any fishing lines suitable to use at the farm. I don't think there were any sinkers on any line that had been mine. Q. Do you remember telling me you presumed there were lines and sinkers and hooks at the farm? A. I said there were lines, I thought, and perhaps hooks. I did not say I thought there were sinkers on my lines. There was another box of lines over there beside mine. Q. You thought there were not sinkers? A. Not on my lines. Q. Not sinkers at the farm? A I don't think there were any sinkers at the farm. I don't know whether there were or not. Q. Did you then think there were no sinkers at the farm? A I thought there were no sinkers anywhere or I should not have been trying to find some. Q. You thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had? A I thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had. Q. That is the reason you went into the second story of the barn to look for a sinker? A. Yes sir. Q. What made you think you would find sinkers there? A I heard father say, and I knew there was lead there. Q. What made you think you would find sinkers there? A. I went to see because there was lead there. Q. You thought there might be lead there made into sinkers? A. I thought there might be lead with a hole in it. Q. Did you examine the lead that was downstairs near the door? A. No sir. Q. Why not? A. I don't know. Q. You went straight to the upper story of the barn? A No, I went under the pear tree and got some pears first. Q. Then went to the second story of the barn to look for sinkers for lines you had at the farm, as you supposed, as you had seen them there five years before that time? A I went up to get some sinkers if I could find them. I did not intend to go to the farm for lines. I was going to buy some lines here. Q. You then had no intention of using your lines at Marion? A. I could not get them. Q. You had no intention of using your own line and hooks at the farm? A. No sir. Q. What was the use of telling me a while ago you had no sinkers on your line at the farm? A. I thought I made you understand that those lines at the farm were no good to use. Q. Did you not mean for me to understand one of the reasons you were searching for sinkers was that the lines you had at the farm, as you remembered then, had no sinkers on them? A I said the lines at the farm had no sinkers. Q. I did not ask you what you said. Did you not mean for me to understand that? A. I meant for you to understand I wanted the sinkers and was going to have new lines. Q. You had not then bought your lines? A. No sir, I was going out Thursday noon. Q. You had not bought any apparatus for fishing? A. No hooks. Q. Had bought nothing connected with your fishing trip? A. No sir. Q. Was going to go fishing the next Monday, were you? A. I don't know that we should go fishing Monday. Q. Going to the place to go fishing Monday? A. Yes sir. Q. This was Thursday and you had no idea of using any fishing apparatus before the next Monday? A. No sir. Q. You had no fishing apparatus you were proposing to use the next Monday until then? A. No sir, not until I bought it. Q. You had not bought anything? A. No sir. Q. Had you started to buy anything? A. No sir. Q. The first thing in preparation for your fishing trip the next Monday was to go to the loft of that barn to find some old sinkers to put on some hooks and lines that you had not then bought? A. I thought if I found no sinkers, I would have to buy the sinkers when I bought the lines. Q. You thought you would be saving something by hunting in the loft of the barn before you went to see whether you should need them or not? A. I thought I would find out whether there were any sinkers before I bought the lines and if there was, I should not have to buy any sinkers. If there were some, I should only have to buy the lines and the hooks. Q. You began the collection of your fishing apparatus by searching for the sinkers in the barn? A. Yes sir. Q. You were searching in a box of old stuff in the loft of the barn? A. Yes sir, upstairs. Q. That you had never looked at before? A. I had seen them. Q. Never examined them before? A. No sir. Q. All the reason you supposed there was sinkers there was your father had told you there was lead in the barn? A. Yes, lead. And one day I wanted some old nails. He said there was some in the barn. Q. All the reason that gave you to think there was sinkers was your father said there was old lead in the barn? A. Yes sir. Q. Did he mention the place in the barn? A. I think he said upstairs. I'm not sure. Q. Where did you look upstairs? A. On that work-bench like. Q. In anything? A. Yes. In a box---sort of a box. And then some things lying right on the side that was not in the box. Q. How large a box was it? A. I could not tell you. It was probably covered up---with lumber, I think. Q. Give me the best idea of the size of the box you can. A. Well, I should say I don't know. I have not any idea. Q. Give me the best idea you have. A. I have given you the best idea I have. Q. What is the best idea you have? A. About that large. (Measuring with her hands) Q. That long? A. Yes. Q. How wide? A. I don't know. Q. Give me the best idea you have. A. Perhaps about as wide as it was long. Q. How high? A. It was not very high. Q. About how high? A. (Witness measures with her hands). Q. About twice the length of your forefinger? A. I should think so. Not quite. Q. What was in the box? A. Nails and some old locks and I don't know but there was a doorknob. Q. Anything else? A. I don't remember anything else. Q. Any lead? A. Yes, some pieces of tea-lead like. Q. Foil. What we call tinfoil; the same you use on tea chests? A. I don't remember seeing any tinfoil; not as thin as that. Q. Tea chest lead? A. No sir. Q. What did you see in shape of lead? A. Flat pieces of lead a little bigger than that. Some of them were doubled together. Q. How many? A. I could not tell you. Q. Where else did you look beside in the box? A. I did not look anywhere for lead except on the work bench. Q. How full was the box? A. It was not nearly as full as it could have been. Q. You looked on the bench. Beside that, where else? A. Nowhere except on the bench. Q. Did you look for anything else beside lead? A. No sir. Q. When you got through looking for lead, did you come down? A. No sir. I went to the west window over the hay, to the west window, and the curtain was slanted a little. I pulled it down. Q. What else? A. Nothing. Q. That is all you did? A. Yes sir. Q. That is the second story of the barn. A. Yes sir. Q. Was the window open? A. I think not. Q. Hot? A. Very hot. Q. How long do you think you were up there? A. Not more than 15 or 20 minutes, I should not think. Q. Should you think what you have told me would occupy four minutes? A. Yes, because I ate some pears up there. Q. Do you think all you have told me would take you four minutes? A. I ate some pears up there. Q. I asked you to tell me all you did. A. I told you all I did. Q. Do you mean to say you stopped your work and then, additional to that, sat still and ate some pears? A. While I was looking out of the window, yes sir. Q. Will you tell me all you did in the second story of the barn? A. I think I told you all I did that I can remember. Q. Is there anything else? A. I told you that I took some pears up from the ground when I went up. I stopped under the pear tree and took some pears up when I went up. Q. Have you now told me everything you did up in the second story of the barn? A. Yes sir. Q. I now call your attention and ask you to say whether all you have told me I don't suppose you stayed there any longer than was necessary? A. No sir, because it was close. Q. Can you give me any explanation why all you have told me would occupy more than three minutes? A. Yes. It would take me more than three minutes. Q. To look in that box that you have described the size of on the bench and put down the curtain and then get out as soon as you conveniently could; would you say you were occupied in that business 20 minutes? A. I think so because I did not look at the box when I first went up. Q. What did you do? A. I ate my pears. Q. Stood there eating the pears, doing nothing? A. I was looking out of the window. Q. Stood there looking out of the window, eating the pears? A. I should think so. Q. How many did you eat? A. Three, I think. Q. You were feeling better than you did in the morning? A. Better than I did the night before. Q. You were feeling better than you were in the morning? A. I felt better in the morning than I did the night before. Q. That is not what I asked you. You were then, when you were in that hay loft, looking out the window and eating three pears, feeling better, were you not, than you were in the morning when you could not eat any breakfast? A. I never eat any breakfast. Q. You did not answer my question and you will, if I have to put it all day. Were you then when you were eating those three pears in that hot loft, looking out that closed window, feeling better than you were in the morning when you ate no breakfast? A. I was feeling well enough to eat the pears. Q. Were you feeling better than you were in the morning? A. I don't think I felt very sick in the morning, only Yes, I don't know but I did feel better. As I say, I don't know whether I ate any breakfast or not or whether I ate a cookie. Q. Were you then feeling better than you did in the morning? A. I don't know how to answer you because I told you I felt better in the morning anyway. Q. Do you understand my question? My question is whether, when you were in the loft of that barn, you were feeling better than you were in the morning when you got up? A. No, I felt about the same. Q. Were you feeling better than you were when you told your mother you did not care for any dinner? A. No sir, I felt about the same. Q. Well enough to eat pears, but not well enough to eat anything for dinner? A. She asked me if I wanted any meat. Q. I ask you why you should select that place, which was the only place which would put you out of sight of the house, to eat those three pears in? A. I cannot tell you any reason. Q. You observe that fact, do you not? You have put yourself in the only place perhaps, where it would be impossible for you to see a person going into the house? A. Yes sir, I should have seen them from the front window. Q. From anywhere in the yard? A. No sir, not unless from the end of the barn. Q. Ordinarily in the yard you could see them and in the kitchen where you had been, you could have seen them? A. I don't think I understand. Q. When you were in the kitchen, you could see persons who came in at the back door? A. Yes sir. Q. When you were in the yard, unless you went around the corner of the house, you could see them come in at the back door? A. No sir, not unless I was at the corner of the barn. The minute I turned, I could not. Q. What was there? A. A little jog, like. The walk turns. Q. I ask you again to explain to me why you took those pears from the pear tree? A. I did not take them from the pear tree. Q. From the ground, wherever you took them from. I thank you for correcting me. Going into the barn, going upstairs into the hottest place in the barn, in the rear of the barn, the hottest place, and there standing and eating those pears that morning? A. I beg your pardon. I was not in the rear of the barn. I was in the other end of the barn that faced the street. Q. Where you could see anyone coming into the house? A. Yes sir. Q. Did you not tell me you could not? A, Before I went into the barn---at the jog on the outside. Q. You now say when you were eating the pears, you could see the back door? A. Yes sir. Q. So nobody could come in at that time without your seeing them? A. I don't see how they could. Q. After you got done eating your pears, you began your search? A. Yes sir. Q. Then you did not see into the house? A. No sir, because the bench is at the other end. Q. Now, I have asked you over and over again, and will continue the inquiry, whether anything you did at the bench would occupy more than three minutes? A. Yes, I think it would because I pulled over quite a lot of boards in looking. Q. To get at the box? A. Yes sir. Q. Taking all that, what is the amount of time you think you occupied in looking for that piece of lead which you did not find? A. Well, I should think perhaps I was 10 minutes. Q. Looking over those old things? A. Yes sir, on the bench. Q. Now can you explain why you were 10 minutes doing it? A. No, only that I can't do anything in a minute. Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then? A. Came into the kitchen. Q. What did you do then? A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat. Q. What did you do then? A. Opened the sitting room door and went into the sitting room; or pushed it open. It was not latched. Q. What did you do then? A. I found my father and rushed to the foot of the stairs. Q. What were you going into the sitting room for? A. To go upstairs. Q. What for? A. To sit down. Q. What had become of the ironing? A. The fire had gone out. Q. I thought you went out because the fire was not hot enough to heat the flats. A. I thought it would burn, but the fire had not caught from the few sparks. Q. So you gave up the ironing and was going upstairs? A. Yes sir, I thought I would wait till Maggie got dinner and heat the flats again. Q. When you saw your father, where was he? A. On the sofa. Q. What was his position? A. Lying down. Q Describe anything else you noticed at that time. A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie. Q. Did you notice that he had been cut? A. Yes, that is what made me afraid. Q. Did you notice that he was dead? A. I did not know whether he was or not. Q. Did you make any search for your mother? A. No sir. Q. Why not? A. I thought she was out of the house. I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came in, I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out. Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in? A. No sir. Q. That you thought you heard her come in? A. No sir. Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs? A. No sir. Q. To anybody? A. No sir. Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all? A. No sir. Q. Who did you send Maggie for? A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there. Q. What did you tell Maggie? A. I told her he was hurt. Q. When you first told her? A. I says, "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can. I think father is hurt." Q. Did you then know that he was dead? A. No sir. Q. You saw him? A. Yes sir. Q. You went into the room? A. No sir. Q. Looked in at the door? A. I opened the door and rushed back. Q. Saw his face? A. No, I did not see his face because he was all covered with blood. Q. You saw where the face was bleeding? A. Yes sir. Q. Did you see the blood on the floor? A. No sir. Q. You saw his face covered with blood? A. Yes sir. Q. Did you see his eye-ball hanging out? A. No sir. Q. See the gashes where his face was laid open? A. No sir. Q. Nothing of that kind? A. No sir. (WITNESS COVERS HER FACE WITH HER HAND FOR A MINUTE OR TWO, THEN EXAMINATION IS RESUMED.) Q. Do you know of any employment that would occupy your mother for the two hours between nine and 11 in the front room? A. Not unless she was sewing. Q. If she had been sewing you would have heard the machine. A. She did not always use the machine. Q. Did you see or were there found anything to indicate that she was sewing up there? A. I don't know. She had given me a few weeks before some pillow cases to make. Q. My question is not that. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she had done any sewing in that room that morning? A. I don't know. I was not allowed in that room. I did not see it. Q. Was that the room where she usually sewed? A. No sir. Q. Did you ever know of her using that room for sewing? A. Yes sir. Q. When? A. Whenever she wanted to use the machine. Q. When she did not want to use the machine, did you know she used that room for sewing? A. Not unless she went up to sew a button on, or something. Q. She did not use it as a sitting room? A. No sir. Q. Leaving out the sewing, do you know of anything else that would occupy her for two hours in that room? A. No, not if she had made the bed up and she said she had when I went down. Q. Assuming the bed was made? A. I don't know anything. Q. Did she say she had done the work? A. She said she had made the bed and was going to put on the pillow cases, about 9 o'clock. Q. I ask you now again, remembering that---. A. I told you that yesterday. Q. Never mind about yesterday. Tell me all the talk you had with your mother when she came down in the morning. A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better but did not want any breakfast. She said what kind of meat did I want for dinner. I said I did not want any. She said she was going out; somebody was sick, and she would get the dinner, get the meat, order the meat. And I think she said something about the weather being hotter, or something; and I don't remember that she said anything else. I said to her, 'Won't you change your dress before you go out?" She had on an old one. She said, "No, this is good enough." That is all I can remember. Q. In this narrative you have not again said anything about her having said that she had made the bed. A. I told you that she said she made the bed. Q. In this time saying, you did not put that in. I want that conversation that you had with her that morning. I beg your pardon again. In this time of telling me, you did not say anything about her having received a note. A. I told you that before. Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother when she came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again. A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything. What kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot and then the room was done. She says, "I have had a note from somebody that is sick and I am going out and I will get the dinner at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did. Q. She said she had had a note? A. Yes sir. Q. You told me yesterday you never saw the note. A. No sir, I never did. Q. You looked for it? A. No sir, but the rest have. Q. She did not say where she was going? A. No sir. Q. Does she usually tell you where she is going? A. She does not generally tell me. Q. Did she say when she was coming back? A. No sir. Q. Did you know that Mr. Morse was coming to dinner? A. No sir, I knew nothing about him. Q. Was he at dinner the day before? A. Wednesday noon? I don't know. I didn't see him. I don't think he was. Q. Were you at dinner? A. I was in the house. I don't know whether I went down to dinner or not. I was not feeling well. Q. Whether you ate dinner or not? A. I don't remember. Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before? A. No sir, I don't remember because I don't know whether I was down myself or not. Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night? A. I went down, but I think---I don't know---whether I had any tea or not. Q. Did you sit down with the family? A. I think I did, but I'm not sure. Q. Was Mr. Morse there? A. No sir, I did not see him. Q. Who were there to tea? A. Nobody. Q. The family were there, I suppose. A. Yes sir. I mean nobody but the family. Q. Did you have an apron on Thursday? A. Did I what? Q. Have an apron on Thursday. A. No sir, I don't think I did. Q. Do you remember whether you did or not? A. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think I did. Q. You had aprons, of course? A. I had aprons, yes sir. Q. Will you try and think whether you did or not? A. I don't think I did. Q. Will you try and remember? A. I had no occasion for an apron on that morning. Q. If you can remember, I wish you would. A. I don't remember. Q. That is all the answer you can give me about that? A. Yes sir. Q. Did you have any occasion to use the axe or hatchet? A. No sir. Q. Did you know where they were? A. I knew there was an old axe down cellar. That is all I knew. Q. Did you know anything about a hatchet down cellar? A. No sir. Q. Where was the old axe down cellar? A. The last time I saw it, it was stuck in the old chopping block. Q. Was that the only axe or hatchet down cellar? A. It was all I knew about. Q. When was the last time you knew of it? A. When our farmer came to chop wood. Q. When was that? A. I think a year ago last winter. I think there was so much wood on hand, he did not come last winter. Q. Do you know of anything that would occasion the use of an axe or hatchet? A. No sir. Q. Do you know of anything that would occasion the getting of blood on an axe or hatchet down cellar? A. No sir. Q. I do not say there was, but assuming an axe or hatchet was found down cellar with blood on it? A. No sir. Q. Do you know whether there was a hatchet down there before this murder? A. I don't know. Q. You are not able to say your father did not own a hatchet? . A. I don't know whether he did or not. Q. Did you know that there was found at the foot of the stairs a hatchet and axe? A. No sir, I did not. Q. Assume that is so, can you give me any explanation of how they came there? A. No sir. Q. Assume they had blood on them, can you give any occasion for there being blood on them? A. No sir. Q. Can you tell of the killing of any animal? Or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them? A. No sir. He killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June. Q. What with? A. I don't know, but I thought he wrung their necks. Q. What made you think so? A. I think he said so. Q. Did anything else make you think so? A. All but three or four had their heads on. That is what made me think so. Q. Did all of them come into the house? A. I think so. Q. Those that came into the house were all headless? A. Two or three had them on. Q. Were any with their heads off? A. Yes sir. Q. Cut off or twisted off? A. I don't know which. Q. How did they look? A. I don't know, their heads were gone, that is all. Q. Did you tell anybody they looked as though they were twisted off? A. I don't remember whether I did or not. The skin, I think, was very tender. I said, "Why are these heads off?" I think I remember of telling somebody that he said they twisted off. Q. Did they look as if they were cut off? A. I don't know. I did not look at that particularly. Q. Is there anything else besides that that would lead, in your opinion so far as you can remember, to the finding of instruments in the cellar with blood on them? A. I know of nothing else that was done. Q. (By Judge Blaisdell) Was there any effort made by the witness to notify Mrs. Borden of the fact that Mr. Borden was found? Q. (By Knowlton) Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed? A. No sir. When I found him, I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so---. Q. At any time, did you say anything about her to anybody? A. No sir. Q. To the effect that she was out? A. I told father when he came in. Q. After your father was killed? A. No sir. Q. Did you say you thought she was upstairs? A. No sir. Q. Did you ask them to look upstairs? A. No sir. Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search upstairs? A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." That is all I said. Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her? Q. No sir. Q. You did not make any yourself? A. No sir. Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead. A. I did not do anything except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look" Q. You did ask her to look? A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill. Q. Where did you intend for her to look? A. In Mrs. Borden's room. Q. When you went out to the barn, did you leave the door shut, the screen door? A. I left it shut. Q. When you came back did you find it shut or open? A. No sir, I found it open. Q. Can you tell me anything else that you did that you have not told me, during your absence from the house? A. No sir. Q. Can you tell me when it was that you came back from the barn, what time it was? A. I am not sure, but I think it must have been after 10, because I think he told me he did not think he should go out until 10. When he went out, I did not look at the clock to see what time it was. I think he did not go out until 10, or a little after. He was not gone so very long. Q. Will you give me the best judgment you can as to the time your father got back? If you have not any, it is sufficient to say so. A. No sir, I have not any. Q. Can you give me any judgment as to the length of time that elapsed after he came back and before you went to the barn? A. I went right out to the barn. Q. How soon after he came back? A. I should think not less than five minutes. I saw him taking off his shoes and lying down. It only took him two or three minutes to do it. I went right out. Q. When he came into the house, did he not go into the dining room first? A. I don't know. Q. And there sit down? A. I don't know. Q. Why don't you know? A. Because I was in the kitchen. Q. It might have happened and you not have known it? A. Yes sir. Q. You heard the bell ring? A. Yes sir. Q. And you knew when he came in? A. Yes sir. Q. You did not see him? A. No sir. Q. When did you first see him? A. I went into the sitting room and he was there. I don't know whether he had been in the dining room before or not. Q. What made you go into the sitting room? A. Because I wanted to ask him a question. Q. What question? A. Whether there was any mail for me. Q. Did you not ask him that question in the dining room? A. No sir, I think not, Q. Was he not in the dining room sitting down? A. I don't remember his being in the dining room sitting down. Q. At that time, was not Maggie washing the windows in the sitting room? A. I thought I asked him for the mail in the sitting room. I am not sure. Q. Was not the reason he went into the dining room because she was in the sitting room washing windows? A. I don't know. Q. Did he not go upstairs to his room before he sat down in the sitting room? A. I did not see him go. Q. He had the key to his room down there? A. I don't know whether he had it. It was kept on the shelf. Q. Don't you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back? A. No sir. Q. You don't remember anything of that kind? A. No sir. I do not think he did go upstairs either. Q. You will swear he did not? A. I did not see him. Q. You swear you did not see him? A. Yes sir. Q. You were either in the kitchen or sitting room all the time? A. Yes sir. Q. He could not have gone up without he had gone through the kitchen? A. No sir. Q. When you did go into the sitting room to ask him a question, if it was the sitting room, what took place then? A. I asked him if he had any mail. He said, "None for you." He had a letter in his hand. I supposed it was for himself. I asked him how he felt. He said, "About the same." He said he should lie down. I asked him if he thought he should have a nap. He said he should try to. I asked him if he wanted the window left the way it was or if he felt a draught. He said, "No." That is all. Q. Did you help him about lying down? A. No sir. Q. Fix his pillows or head? A. No sir. I did not touch the sofa. Q. Did he lie down before you left the room? A. Yes sir. Q. Did anything else take place? A. Not that I remember of. Q. Was he then under medical treatment? A. No sir. Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of? A. No sir. He took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine. It was what we gave him. Q. What was it? A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea. Q. When was that? A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday. I think some time Wednesday noon and I think the tea Wednesday night. Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor. Q. When did you first consult Mr. Jennings? A. I can't tell you that. I think my sister sent for him. I don't know. Q. Was it you or your sister? A. My sister. Q. You did not send for him? A. I did not send for him. She said did we think we should have him. I said do as she thought best. I don't know when he came first. Q. Now, tell me once more, if you please, the particulars of that trouble that you had with your mother four or five years ago. A. Her father's house on Ferry Street was for sale-... Q. Whose father's house? A Mrs. Borden's father's house. She had a stepmother and a half-sister, Mrs. Borden did, and this house was left to the stepmother and a half-sister, if I understand it right, and the house was for sale. The stepmother, Mrs. Oliver Gray, wanted to sell it and my father bought out the Widow Gray's share. She did not tell me and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said he gave it to her; put it in her name. I said if he gave that to her, he ought to give us something. Told Mrs. Borden so. She did not care anything about the house herself. She wanted it so this half-sister could have a home because she had married a man that was not doing the best he could and she thought her sister was having as very hard time and wanted her to have a home. And we always thought she persuaded father to buy it. At any rate, he did buy it and I am quite sure she did persuade him. I said what he did for her, he ought to do for his own children. So, he gave us grandfather's house. That was all the trouble we ever had. Q. You have not stated any trouble yet between you and her. A. I said there was feeling four or five years ago when I stopped calling her mother. I told you that yesterday. Q. That is all there is to it then? A. Yes sir. Q. You had no words with your stepmother then? A. I talked with her about it and said what he did for her, he ought to do for us. That is all the words we had. Q. That is the occasion of his giving you the house that you sold back to him? A Yes sir. Q. Did your mother leave any property? A I don't know. Q. Your own mother? A No sir, not that I know of. Q. Did you ever see that thing? (Pointing to a wooden club) A. Yes, I think I have. Q. What is it? A. My father used to keep something similar to this, that looked very much like it, under his bed. He whittled it out himself at the farm one time. Q. How long since you have seen it? A. I have not seen it in years. Q. How many years? A I could not tell you. I should think 10 or 15 years. Not since I was quite a little girl, if that is the one. I can't swear that it is the one. It was about that size. Q. (Marks it with a cross) How many years, 10 or 15? A. I was a little girl. It must have been as much as that. Q. When was the last time the windows were washed before that day? A. I don't know. Q. Why don't you know? A. Because I had nothing to do with the work downstairs. Q. When was the last time that you ate with the family that you can swear to before your mother was killed? A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday. That is, what little we ate. We sat down at the table and I think I sat down to the table with them Wednesday night, but I am not sure. Q. All day Tuesday? A. I was down at the table. Q. I understand you to say you did not come down to breakfast. A. That was Wednesday morning. Q. I understood you to say that you did not come down to breakfast. A. I came down but I did not eat breakfast with them. I did not eat any breakfast. Frequently, I would go into the dining room and sit down to the table with them and not eat any breakfast. Q. Did you give to the officer the same skirt you had on the day of the tragedy? A. Yes sir. Q. Do you know whether there was any blood on the skirt? A. No sir. Q. Assume that there was, do you know how it came there? A. No sir. Q. Have you any explanation of how it might come there? A. No sir. Q. Did you know there was any blood on the skirt you gave them? A. No sir. Q. Assume that there was. Can you give any explanation of how it came there on the dress skirt? A. No sir. Q. Have you offered any? A. No sir. Q Have you ever offered any? A. No sir. Q. Have you said it came from flea bites? A. On the petticoats, I said there was a flea bite. I said it might have been. You said you meant the dress skirt. Q. I did. Have you offered any explanation how that came there? A. I told those men that were at the house that I had had fleas. That is all. Q. Did you offer that as an explanation? A. I said that was the only explanation that I knew of. Q. Assuming that the blood came from the outside, can you give any explanation of how it came there? A. No sir. Q. You cannot now? A. No sir. Q. What shoes did you have on that day? A. A pair of ties. Q. What color? A. Black. Q. Will you give them to the officer? A. Yes. Q. Where are they? A. At home. Q. What stockings did you have on that day? A. Black. Q. Where are they? A. At home. Q. Have they been washed? A. I don't know. Q. Will you give them to the officer? A Yes sir. Q. The window you was at is the window that is nearest the street in the barn? A Yes sir, the west window. Q. The pears you ate you got from under the tree in the yard? A. Yes sir. Q. How long were you under the pear tree? A. I think I was under there very nearly four or five minutes. I stood looking around. I looked up at the pigeon house that they have closed up. It was no more than five minutes, perhaps not as long. I can't say sure. Q. (By Judge Blaisdell) Was this witness on Thursday morning in the front hall of front stairs or front chamber, any part of the house at all? Q. What do you say to that? A. I had to come down the front stairs to get into the kitchen. Q. When you came down first? A Yes sir. Q. Were you afterwards? A. No sir. Q. Not at all? A Except the few minutes I went up with the clean clothes and I had to come back again. Q. That you now say was before Mr. Borden went away? A Yes sir. (HEARING ADJOURNED. LIZZIE BORDEN RECALLED AUGUST 11th) Q. Is there anything you would like to correct in your previous testimony? A. No sir. Q. Did you buy a dress pattern in New Bedford? A. A dress pattern? Q. Yes. A. I think I did. Q. Where is it? A. It is at home. Q. Where? A. Where at home? Q. Please. A. It is in a trunk. Q. In your room? A. No sir, in the attic. Q. Not made up? A. Oh, no sir. Q. Where did you buy it? A. I don't know the name of the store. Q. On the principal street there? A. I think it was on the street that Hutchinson's book store is on. I am not positive. Q. What kind of a one was it, please? A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe and a blue stripe corded gingham. Q. Your attention has already been called to the circumstances of going into the drug store of Smith's on the corner of Columbia and Main Streets, by some officer, has it not, on the day before the tragedy? A. I don't know whether some officer has asked me. Somebody has spoken of it to me. I don't know who it was. Q. Did that take place? A. It did not. Q. Do you know where the drugstore is? A. I don't. Q. Did you go into any drugstore and inquire for prussic acid? A. I did not. Q. Where were you on Wednesday morning that you remember? A. At home. Q. All the time? A. All day, until Wednesday night. Q. Nobody there but your parents and yourself and the servant? A. Why, Mr. Morse came sometime in the afternoon, or at noon time, I suppose. I did not see him. Q. He did not come to see you? A. No sir. I did not see him. Q. He did not come until afternoon anyway, did he? A. I don't think he did. I'm not sure. Q. Did you dine with the family that day? A. I was downstairs, yes sir. I did not eat any breakfast with them. Q. Did you go into the drugstore for any purpose whatever? A. I did not. Q. I think you said yesterday that you did not go into the room where your father lay, after he was killed, on the sofa, but only looked in at the door. A. I looked in. I did not go in. Q. You did not step into the room at all? A. I did not. Q. Did you ever, after your mother was found killed, any more than go through it to go upstairs? A. When they took me upstairs, they took me through that room. Q. Otherwise than that, did you go into it? A. No sir. Q. Let me refresh your memory. You came down in the night to get some water with Miss Russell, along towards night, or in the evening, to get some water with Miss Russell? A. Thursday night? I don't remember it. Q. Don't you remember coming down some time to get some toilet water? A. No sir. There was no toilet water downstairs. Q. Or to empty the slops? A. I don't know whether I did Thursday evening or not. I am not sure. Q. You think it may have been some other evening? A. I don't remember coming down with her to do such a thing. I may have. I can't tell whether it was Thursday evening or any other evening. Q. Other than that, if it did take place, you don't recollect going into that room for any purpose at any time? A. No sir. Q. Was the dress that was given the officers the same dress that you wore that morning? A. Yes sir. Q. The India silk? A. No sir. It is not an India silk. It is silk and linen. Some call it Bengaline silk. Q. Something like that dress there? (Pongee) A. No, it was not like that. Q. Did you give to the officer the same shoes and stockings that you wore? A. I did, sir. Q. Do you remember where you took them off? A. I wore the shoes ever after that, all around the house Friday and all day Thursday and all day Friday and Saturday until I put on my shoes for the street. Q. That is to say you wore them all that day, Thursday, until you took them off for the night? A. Yes sir. Q. Did you tell us yesterday all the errand that you had at the barn? A. Yes sir. Q. You have nothing to add to what you said? A. No sir. Q. Miss Borden, of course you appreciate the anxiety that everybody has to find the author of this tragedy, and the questions that I put to you have been in that direction. I now ask you if you can furnish any other fact, or give any other, even suspicion, that will assist the officers in any way in this matter. A. About two weeks ago---. Q. Was you going to tell the occurrence about the man that called at the house? A. No sir. It was after my sister went away. I came home from Miss Russell's one night and as I came up, I always glanced towards the side door. As I came along by the carriage-way, I saw a shadow on the side steps. I did not stop walking, but I walked slower. Somebody ran down the steps, around the east end of the house. I thought it was a man because I saw no skirts and I was frightened, and, of course, I did not go around to see. I hurried in the front door as fast as I could and locked it. Q. What time of the night was that? A. I think about a quarter of 9. It was not after 9 o'clock, anyway. Q. Do you remember what night that was? A. No sir, I don't. I saw somebody run around the house once before last winter. Q. One thing at a time. Do you recollect about how long that occurrence was? A. It was after my sister went away. She has been away two weeks today, so it must have been within two weeks. Q. Two weeks today? Or two weeks at the time of the murder? A. Is not today Thursday? A. Yes, but that would be three weeks. I thought you said the day your father was murdered, she had been away just two weeks. A. Yes, she had. Q. Then, it would be three weeks today your sister went away. A week has elapsed. A. Yes, it would be three weeks. Q. You mean it was some time within the two weeks that your sister was away? A. Yes. I had forgotten that a whole week had passed since the affair. Q. Different from that, you cannot state? A. No sir. I don't know what the date was. Q. This form, when you first saw it, was on the steps of the backdoor? A. Yes sir. Q. Went down the rear steps? A. Went down toward the barn. Q. Around the back side of the house? A. Disappeared in the dark. I don't know where they went. Q. Have you ever mentioned that before? A. Yes sir, I told Mr. Jennings. Q. To any officer? A. I don't think I have, unless I told Mr. Hanscomb. Q. What was you going to say about last winter? A. Last winter when I was coming home from church one Thursday evening, I saw somebody run around the house again. I told my father of that. Q. Did you tell your father of this last one? A. No sir. Q. Of course you could not identify who it was either time? A. No, I could not identify who it was, but it was not a very tall person. Q. Have you sealskin sacks? A. Yes sir. Q. Where are they? A. Hanging in a large white bag in the attic, each one separate. Q. Put away for the summer? A. Yes sir. Q. Do you ever use prussic acid on your sacks? A. Acid? No sir, I don't use anything on them. Q. Is there anything else you can suggest that even amounts to anything whatever? A. I know of nothing else, except the man who came and father ordered him out. That is all I know. Q. That you told about the other day? A. I think I did, yes sir. Q. You have not been able to find that man? A. I have not. I don't know whether anybody else has or not. Q. Have you caused search to be made for him? A. Yes sir. Q. When was the offer of reward made for the detection of the criminals? A. I think it was made Friday. Q. Who suggested that? A. We suggested it ourselves and asked Mr. Buck if he did not think it was a good plan. Q. Whose suggestion was it, yours or Emma's? A. I don't remember. I think it was mine. (THE EXAMINATION ENDED)
