Saturday, October 24, 2015

Karen Mackie Transcript on Scam

Thanks to: 

Chris Woodruff
Lead Analyst
I have the privilege of working with investigators, journalists, commentators, and citizens from around the country, who I have met through the Statement Analysis blog. Beginning in 2012, there was an increase of information, particularly from Europe, on the increase in violence and crime there, which, depending upon the country of origin, I may be able to do some in-depth analysis, but in second language translation, we must step back and look at only broad strokes, as small nuances do not translate well.

Here we have a transcript where British is spoken, and no translation to English made.

What you need to know is the allegation.

The allegation is the "reason" for the statements to be analyzed. Although limiting information to an analyst of only the allegation and no case details often has a powerful effect, it is not done for such. It is done to keep contamination low.

In recently watching a documentary on Lance Armstrong, I was amazed how it seemed that no one recognized his pattern of deception and it may be that strong emotional connection clouded judgment.

I was a very big Lance fan, inspired by his book, to the point where I not only watched the Tour de France live, but purchased the DVDs each Christmas following the first Tours. The earliest accusations seemed to be French envy, as this is a "European sport" and no American should win it. There were plenty of anti-American sentiments expressed back then, but I stopped purchasing the DVDs when Armstrong began to address the accusations.

Over the years, I have analyzed for deception those who I have admired, or those who's ideology I agree with. In Armstrong's case, I even had my sons read his first book, and telling them that it was all a criminal conspiracy and a hoax, and that Armstrong was not only one who belonged in prison, but had destroyed lives, was not easy, but "truth always trumps the narrative. "

I recognize that this is not popular today as it was in our history, but it remains the same for me, and for the articles and analysis I publish. The subject, that is, the speaker or writer, is "dead" to us; it is only the words that we analyze.

Yet, pathological liars do evidence patterns and re-watching that documentary (its on Netflix) is a very good exercise for those of you who wish to learn.

A budding, intelligent and witty business analyst sent this to me, knowing its value. He wisely included an article, citing how interesting it is to see what journalists add to, and subtract from, within a story.

Those of you who have learned some of the principles of analysis recognize that even the presentation of news articles can use propaganda and reveal their own prejudice and how, sadly, "narrative trumps truth" for some.

Note the article, the transcript, and your thoughts in the comments section.

Due to difficulty in sizing, I have made the article quite large, and the print rather small, and apologize in advance. It is, however worth the effort.

As a detective who's growth in training is progressing at an accelerated pace recently asked, it is important that the Interviewer consider the lack of Reliable Denial and eventually confront the subject with it,

carefully using or quoting her own words in order to facilitate the confession or admission.

Liars will go a long way to avoid lying about their own lies but most only when their own wording is used --it does happen on its own, with the "Why should we believe you?" question, but my record of obtaining confessions or admissions (an admission is a confession sans moral guilt, such as, "Yes, I took the money", rather than "Yes, I stole the money") is strong because I know:

We as humans are most comfortable with our own language. I cover obtaining confessions in the home course and seminar, but again, in more detail, in the Advanced Course.

Anyone who thinks financial fraud hurts only your wallet needs to meet victims like solicitor Karen Mackie in Farnham. Her life has been ruined since fraudsters persuaded her to transfer £734,000 from her client’s accounts.

Karen Mackie
I’m feel completely devastated by it. I’ve lost my practice I’m under the doctor, I’m seeing a councilor and um I again very frightened and shaken and chest pains, regularly getting chest pains um because of it and um I’ve had no income since the 3rd of June when they intervened um and we are at risk of losing our house now.

Fraudsters called Karen in April pretending to be from her bank Nat West. They said suspicious payments had been made from her accounts and in order to prevent any further losses she had to wire all the money from her client’s accounts to new supposedly safer accounts in her name. Only they weren’t safe and the money vanished.

Karen Mackie
I thought I was talking to Nat West. I had no reason to suspect I wasn’t speaking to someone from Nat West.

After calling her bank and the police, Karen contacted her insurance company to try and get some of the defrauded money back for her clients but she got little comfort from them.

Do you mind if I show you a letter you were sent by your insurance company?

Karen Mackie

Um when you said listen I’ve been a victim of fraud here and I need to make a claim.

Karen Mackie

They wrote to you and said that the idea of any honest solicitor would make 8 different payments of round sum transfers to several accounts is simply incredible and they went on to say as matters presently stand EIC, your insurance company does not accept that you acted honestly. They are basically accusing you

Karen Mackie

of being complicit in fraud. How does that make you feel when you got that letter?

Karen Mackie
Um absolutely sick, um it’s not true [scoffs].

Police have told Karen that they don’t think she was complicit nonetheless the solicitor’s regulation authority said it had to suspend Karen so that her clients could get their money back from a special compensation fund. It also told us that 3 or 4 solicitors were being targeted by fraudsters every week.

As for the insurance company that accused Karen of dishonesty, it’s standing by its assertions.

So, financial fraud has had a major impact on your life in every sense.

Karen Mackie
In every single sense, absolutely.


S + K Mum said...

A BBC article on Karen Mackie;

A solicitor has told the BBC that being tricked into transferring £750,000 of client money to criminals has left her life in ruins.
Sole practitioner Karen Mackie has been suspended from working, declared bankrupt, and faces the prospect of losing her home.
She is the latest victim of "vishing" in which criminals pose as bank security teams.
Criminals are targeting legal practices overseeing large sums of money.
The crime sees con-artists call innocent people and, posing as bank employees, persuade them first that the victims' money is at risk. They tell them that to secure their funds they should transfer them to a "safe" account.
Legal firms are targeted by the gangs as they have large amounts of money from clients in order to complete transactions such as property purchases.
The Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) has told BBC's Money Box programme that every week, three to four solicitor practices receive these calls. Some of those conned have transferred six and seven figure sums to crooks.
On the line
Mrs Mackie's case started at the end of April. Already facing personal financial pressures, she said she received a call, purporting to be from her bank, which suggested funds in her clients' accounts were at risk.
"This lady introduced herself as Joanne Howard from NatWest saying that one of my accounts had been compromised and that I should phone the number on the back of my debit card, which is the helpline. We ended the call and I then phoned that number," she said.
Ringing immediately was Mrs Mackie's downfall. Instead of contacting NatWest security, she connected straight back to the criminals - there is a delay in landline phones clearing the previous call.
The criminals then convinced her that her funds were at risk and that the "bank" would call back the following day to transfer her money to "safe" accounts.
When a frightened Mrs Mackie, of Surrey, took the call the following day, she moved £734,000 into new accounts - in tranches of up to £99,000. Shortly afterwards she became suspicious, alerted the police and her bank and nearly £222,000 was retrieved by NatWest. The rest had been withdrawn by the crooks.

S + K Mum said...


Legal sceneImage copyrightThinkstock
Protecting client money is one of the golden rules of being allowed to practise as a solicitor. Her failure to do so, has led to Karen Mackie being suspended from the profession, though ironically she did what she did, thinking she was protecting client funds.
Her professional indemnity insurers have refused to pay out on the grounds that if she had not been dishonest herself, she had effectively "condoned dishonesty activities" by others.
The insurers told Money Box in a statement: "Ms Mackie is a solicitor who represents a risk to the public and cannot be trusted with holding client money."
Mrs Mackie's suspension by the SRA means she cannot work as a solicitor again without taking more exams and being given clearance by the SRA. Although her personal financial troubles did not start with this episode, she has now been declared bankrupt and is having trouble meeting her mortgage commitments.
"I miss my work incredibly. I feel dreadful for my clients because it is such personal, family work," she said.
"The whole situation has just been devastating. I'm also receiving counselling. I'm on various medication for anxiety and depression."
Her suspension has enabled her clients to have access to the Solicitors Compensation Scheme which has now refunded their losses.
The story comes in the week that Financial Fraud Action UK (FFA), the body which co-ordinates the financial industry's response to cyber crime, reported that UK financial fraud losses rose 6% to £325m in the first six months of 2015.
Telephone banking fraud losses rose by 95% to £14.4m in the same period. The FFA said that a further £300m of "remote" banking fraud, which includes online and telephone banking crimes, was stopped.
There have been repeated criticisms that neither the police nor the banks are doing enough to protect the public from these crimes. BT recently announced that it was cutting the delay in cutting off landline calls to two seconds.

S + K Mum said...

Scam phone calls are a big problem. I get a few a week, thankfully though they are very obviously scams, heavily accented callers with a limited understanding of English. The latest one being 'pay us this amount of money and we can block your scam callers - couldn't make it up! haha!

However, I have read about sophisticated scams where companies have lost a lot of money.

Statement Analysis Blog said...

S + K,

thank you for your contributions!

I was hoping to provoke a bit of humor with the "British" language, but....

oh well.

I try!


S + K Mum said...

ah Peter haha.


Anonymous said...

Leakage? "Because I also had OTHER financial problems..."

She needs to cite support, claiming clients have texted her and one sent flowers. (If texts are how her clients know best to reach her, she's reasonably tech savvy, another red flag against falling for such ludicrous tech scams.)

We are also taught that order means everything in importance. Each time she responds to level of harm and impact, she names herself first.
Her, her husband and children.
Her and her "poor" clients.
Her and her former employees of her now-defunct firm.

How does anybody in 2015, especially a trained professional, fall for a phishing scam? She even says it here, like she has countless times to clients, banks do not do business that way!

Then to read she had day, night and the next day to think about it, to tell colleagues, mention to her husband, etc., and still goes through the multiple accounts the next day?
And only THEN does she think to check things out and call police?

I wish the interviewer had asked whether she contacted the supposedly affected clients during those two days?

And did she take any action to "protect" her own money?

And which LEO, name and rank, is on record supporting her innocence?

Quoting the article:
"Mrs. Mackie's problems started at the end of April. Already facing financial problems..."
Mrs. Mackie's problems started before "the end of April."

She may be a decent person and wonderful friend to many most of her life, but she got scared and did something incredibly stupid, probably not realizing she would have to lose her career to get her clients compensated.

Anonymous said...

Quoting article:
"They wrote to you and said that the idea of any honest solicitor would make 8 different payments of round sum transfers to several accounts..."
Wait, does that mean she only removed part of the funds in each client's account? That alone makes no sense; if someone has fraudently accessed an account, wouldn't you remove ALL of the money from their reach?

Removing all of the money would close the account; would that require the clients' signatures where a partial transfer might not?

Hopefully some financial folks can add professional insight to the SA?

Shannon In CA said...

You'd be surprised (although I agree). There are law firms who are contacted by out of country "clients" who ask them to deposit money into their trust account and then send it to someone else or somewhere else and by the time they know the original check was bad, it's too late and the trust account is a mess. That automatically gets lawyers in trouble. You'd think lawyers would be smart enough to not get take in by something like this but it happens all the time.

Anonymous said...

Shannon, have attorneys or their assistants actually fallen for the money transfer scams in recent years? I'm actually asking, not challenging or disputing; it's boggling anyone would, much less trained, educated professionals!

It makes me livid to read of these feces stains targeting elderly, or lonely, or otherwise vulnerable targets. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is too severe in punishment.

But I expect to read of people like Mrs. Mackie being alert to questionable activity and heroically saving a vulnerable client from a scummy predator.
That is why my gut just won't wrap around her being a victim of anyone except herself.

She likely has strong remorse, and didn't set out to callously con and financially destroy her clients, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn of an entire secret life built upon a series of increasing lies behind this, rather than a single moment of panicked idiocy.

Two days to let sink in the supposed fraud and no research, vetting during that time?

Anonymous said...

Off topic -
I saw two 48-hour mysteries in which the main suspects' wording or narrative baffled me:

Episode Fall from Grace - Tyler Deaton
Episode The Agent's Wife - Art Gonzales

I would appreciate your analysis on these cases, thanks!

Tania Cadogan said...


Given the nature of her job and her implied intelligence, why would she believe the bank called her and advised her to transfer money from one account into several 'new' accounts?

Why would they ask her to send x amount of money in rounded sums to a new account?

Common sense would say the bank isn't going to call you and tell you to do this or that over the phone.

Common sense would say hang on a moment, let's go direct to the branch and talk to the manager and see what is going on.

When you create a new bank account you have to fill in forms and provide evidence of your identity and proof of where you live, the bank won't create a new account for you over the phone for just this reason.

I am not buying her story, her excuse is the kind of excuse seen by genuine victims who are usually elderly and frail or the terminally brain dead.

She is pulling a fast one, where has she put the money?

ima.grandma said...

This is the link for her professional license's regulatory agency and Ms. Mackie's public record. Navigating the site is easy for viewing other relevant information.

Anonymous said...

Nice work, ima.g! And gee, what a shock - going back a full year on the list of reported scam attempts, not one mention of someone misrepresenting her bank.

I guess they were so successful with her they have enough to meet their needs and she is their only victim?

Grace4Ayla said...

I am going to transcribe this interview. Unless Peter opens a new Deorr post I will put it here.

Grace4Ayla said...

Link to interview:


Grace4Ayla said...

Interview Part One:

DKS: Trying to go over, double search, double, wherever, what’s been searched, go over it again, what hasn’t been searched, anything that may have been over-looked, little pockets, things like that, little sections that could have been overlooked, ok well now we’re gonna, kinda, nar-try to narrow down into one spot here, one spot here, just trying to figure out everything. And so (or possibly “I said let’s”) get as many people as we can and get their eyes open, and get their eyes going. We, as a family, for my son’s sake and for ours, we need to find something, because once the snow flies, (interrupted)

UNK: Right

DKS: There, what’ll, what’ll, (unintelligible) gonna do? At this point I’d be happy, I’d be happy with a same colored thread of what he was wearing.

JM: Any sign of a direction we can at least go in, cuz right now we’re just, here, on square one.

TBC: And it’s actually easier right now than it was in July, you know, to be able to walk through the trees and look down and be able to move things around and…

JM: The colors have changed…

TBC: Yeah the colors have changed so much and so to see a blue or to see the brown in that camouflage boot, things like that, is just easier and, you know, we’re just, we’re asking for extra help because as many times as we’ve searched this and searched this, it may just take one extra eye that happens to see that light blue color. You know, we’re not, we’re starting at square one with “We don’t know”. You know, everyone’s says if we believe he was abducted why are we back here? Because everything is, we’re day one.

DKS: We know as much as we did on day one, you know, and when you m- (stops mid-word) you know, you could, as, you know, the parent you believe the best route, you know, which is at least if somebody has him at least there’s a chance he’s ok and I get him back, we get him back.

UNK: right

DKS: So, but in order to, in order to even find, there, up here, there’s gonna be, there’s gotta be something up here to tell us where, what direction to go in, what, what’s happened, what’s going on.

UNK: So, what’s your opinion on, they, you know they said, the sheriff of Lemhi County said they were starting over from, just as if it happened here yesterday, they’re starting fresh?

DKS: Probably not a bad idea, I mean, we agree, I, cuz I said that’s what we’re thinking too, because something was, something’s been overlooked, something hasn’t been, whatever hasn’t been found is what we plan on finding, what we’re going to find. We, we, we’ve got to. I’m running, we’re running out of time, the weather’s not agreeing with us on a lot of this.

UNK: Which is what we’re doing right now...

Shannon In CA said...

Yes. So recently it's been in bar journals warning law firms not to fall for these scams.

Anonymous said...

OT - DeOrr Kunz Jr.

New statements made by the family today...


Anonymous said...

"Whatever hasn't been found we plan on finding..."

You mean like, I dunno, YOUR BABY? Ugh this guy actually thinks people believe he's innocent!


Grace4Ayla said...

Interview Part Two

UNK: There’s too much ground to cover to 100% say that everything has been checked and double checked and triple checked. Everything bit, everything that’s been, you know, picked up and moved and anything that he could’ve gotten under or, you know, lost his boot or anything like that to show us a sign of where he was or which way he went or what happened. There’s too much ground to cover to say that we’ve covered everything, though we’re kind of doing that now and trying to get that done before the snow comes.

(Obvious edit)

DKS: And so far, where nothing’s been found, I want to go back through everything again. And anything that in my mind I don’t think has been checked off, even though the search and rescue and all that has done an amazing job, I, just uh, the truth of it is nothing’s been found yet so

JM: You have to start back at square one

DKS: You have to start square one. And I agree with Sheriff Bowerman, I agree with the officials that what, whatever that may be, whatever that may take, well, we’re gonna do it from square one again.

(Obvious edit)

DKS: And people have thought the family asking for nobody to come, or trying to get, no, that’s not it, Everybody was coming up and nobody was checking in and they were gonna have lot’s of people and those resources to find those lost people could be found, could be used to find my son. Well now we gotta sid-(interuppted word) we’re, we’re getting it to, so see the family is running this and we’re asking the public, please help.

JM: Please.

DKS: We’re gonna, all we’re asking of you is to come in, uh, put your name and your phone number down that way we know who’s here, and if you don’t come back during a check in time, we know who’s missing now. So that way everyone stays safe and everything’s fine, and just help, if you can help find my son, if you have the time, please do, otherwise just, thank, pray for us and thank you.

(Obvious edit)

TBC: So we will be meeting again tomorrow at the Leadore store at 8am. We’re asking for anyone to please come join us. Um, we need as many people up here as we possibly can. It takes about 45 minutes in a good vehicle to get up here to the location. Um, we just need fresh eyes and we’re just begging you please to come help us.

Grace4Ayla said...

I don't know the name of the third woman in the interview, I think it is Deorr Sr.'s sister.

Anonymous said...

This is an amazing story. I honestly do not know what to think about this story. I have worked with attorneys through their trust accounts for many years, at times placing large sums of money in their hands to be deposited into their trust accounts, including traveler's checks, cash, cashier's checks, certified checks and personal checks. Attorneys have tight safeguards in place for protecting these accounts, at least this is what we all thought and have been led to believe.

These accounts are rarely audited, but are monitored by state regulating agencies for accuracy, and in some states an accounting must be made quarterly of all transactions that have gone through the trust account, both debits and credits, and the account balanced. An attorney trust account is the safest place a client can have their money held (even hidden secretly) for any length of time needed. Provided you can trust your attorney; it is the best place EVER to stash money that one does not wanted reported to the IRS or other sources.

Although bank insured, (under normal conditions unless the account specifies otherwise) the individual attorney is totally responsible and liable to their clients for all transactions made into the attorney trust accounts over and above that amount insured by the bank. It isn't clearly specified but as I understand it, this person had private insurance on the trust account?

Unless I missed it somewhere in the story; one thing that bothers me about this story is that no mention was made of individual trust accounts being held open for different types of clients. This person refers to only one account? For example; some trust accounts are interest bearing and others are not. In some states, all interest bearing trust accounts must be set up individually and separately, and accounted for individually. There is no co-mingling of funds for clients who request interest bearing accounts. All other trust fund monies may be deposited into one single trust account. It would be almost unheard of that at least one of her clients had not requested their monies be held in an interest bearing account.

I have known of an attorney absconding with the funds that were in their trust account(s), but never have I heard of an attorney trust account being mishandled in this fashion. If this story is true as related, I am shocked that any attorney would be this gullible. This is a real eye-opener.

Anonymous said...

No kidding! Nevermind a reliable denial; how about a lucid, complete thought!
I'm not so sure he thinks the world assumes him innocent.

Even for him this was all over the place. Maybe it's because messy speech is so much more noticeable in print, but this reads like he's absolutely terrified, not just nervous babbling.

Anonymous said...

I apologize for my post above @11:19. I am SO sorry. It was late and I was tired and had only briefly scanned the article, not paying attention that it doesn't even pertain to our legal profession in this country! Here I was thinking maybe someone needed to explain how our trust accounts work; when, for all I know theirs could be handled in an entirely different manner than ours is. Good heavens, why waste time on this? Don't we have enough to deal with here already in our own country, Peter?

On the other hand, maybe we ought to be paying closer attention to how our money is being handled in these atty trust accounts in this country as well. Again, I'm very sorry to waste your time reading my post. T/Y!

Grace4Ayla said...

Foodie, I may have missed a stutter or two, but I tried to get them all. He talks really fast, but he self-edits like crazy! Could this be due to meth/drugs?

Grace4Ayla said...

Does anyone else get the impression that they are "planning" to find something, based on the interview? It's just a niggling feeling I have....

Anonymous said...

I had that exact feeling, G4A, especially how they kept babbling about being "happy" with just a thread of blue clothing, (and Jessica now clarifying it'll be light blue), on the last search before winter.

Parents, approximately how many angry, rabid bears would it take to keep you off that mountainside for the winter if they did find new evidence of your missing child?

Once again, zero mention of little DeOrr's name, not a word of speculation about his well-being, this time by any of them.
Nobody made any attempt to talk to him; if you thought there was a one in 10 million chance he could hear you, wouldn't you at least have an "I love you," and maybe a "We're not going to give up until we find you and bring you home!"

This group acts like they're looking for a lost item, not their helpless child. They also act as if finding evidence he was at the site is the end goal, another indication they are all in self-defense mode, not missing child mode.

G4A, I actually watched the video and you did an outstanding job getting all of that gibberish! I kept getting distracted wondering how many times you had to roll it back to figure out what the heck they babbled and where you even were in a sentence.

All of them are gross, but he is utterly creepy. They all have a nasty vibe; I wonder how clean they keep their home, but he makes my skin crawl.

Anonymous said...

@Tania, if I recall you live in the UK? Please forgive my ignorance, but a solicitor is an attorney, a lawyer?
I've always understood that, but somehow had inferred that Mackie was an investment broker, no clue why.

If she is a practicing attorney, the idea of her actually falling for this as reported is absolutely a load of male bovine feces!

They go on about that phone call disconnect delay as if it caused this, but first, her actions were over two days, not just a panicked kneejerk response she regretted seconds later.

Second, if the call is still connected there isn't a dial tone. And how did she hear the electronic sounds, then ringing, if she was still on the original call?

We have the same stringent requirements on opening bank accounts, you UK folks. I couldn't even get a second debit card for my friend who kindly does my shopping when chemo is kicking my azz, without literally tying our incomes, debts, credit, etc., together.

And it's now illegal to put money in someone else's account unless you are on the account! My mom gets embarrassed to accept any money so it was easier to just drop it in her account and save her feeling awkward, but no more.

Even without her financial difficulties this one has too many holes to be even close to plausible. As to where she put the money I'm going with debt, from what, who knows.
But with these numbers, I suspect it's a money hole that is still running in high gear. This did not put an end to it and wouldn'thave even if she got all of the money she was going for there.

Anonymous said...

What hasn't yet been "checked off" in his mind, that the incredibly amazing, awesome, spectacular, magical, astounding, talented, superior, top-shelf, unsuccessful search and rescue folks managed to overlook in that small area?

And if he still has areas and searching strategy not yet checked off, why haven't they been up there, especially knowing winter weather is coming soon?

(no disrespect at all to the search and rescue folks; the sarcasm is aimed only at DeOrr Sr!!)

Anonymous said...

So in other words, Grace4Ayla, this space-head DeOrr and his woman mommy dearest, believes every dead fallen leaf is going to be turned over and looked under until they find this one little piece of light blue thread, quick, before the snow flies? Well then, they'd better be bringing a whole lotta rakes with 'em and slowly sifting through one little pile at the time, for days and days and days, 'eh? Oh, and don't miss looking under one single leaf. These people are NUTSO!

Yes ma'am, you did an excellent job in transcribing this nonsense. VERY good. They are SOOOOOOOOo guilty! This poor little boy will never be found; he is wherever they dumped him and it AIN'T anywhere near there. This is so easy to determine and what I can't understand is why the Sheriff hasn't already figured this out and arrested them under suspicion.

Anonymous said...

G4A, I'm not sure, but I don't think meth/drugs would cause the self-editing. The babbling and never finishing thoughts and sentences, yes.

But the constant self-editing reads and sounds like he's guilty as hell and knows he's caught.
If geniuses and remorseless sociopaths cannot get past the basics of SA -- speed of transmission, choosing which words to use and which to avoid -- this drugged out idiot, who likely also has moderate to severe ADHD, couldn't possibly.

Jessica sounds exactly like him; whether she was dragged in or what, they are now working as a team, strategizing like a team (albeit not an especially bright one), thinking like a team.

And none of that effort, not one tiny light blue thread of it, is for their poor little boy; they are all about themselves and saving their own sorry azzes from being held accountable for whatever happened, whenever and wherever.

Anonymous said...

Anon, I don't consider any of your post a waste of time. It's always interesting to have insight on how things are done in other areas, and your main points, where there are safeguards and where potential fraud happens, still stand.

And several readers here, even among the regular contrubutors, live outside the USA, so stories from the UK are relevant and interesting.

Grace4Ayla said...

Foodie, my sources tell me they were up there "as a family" last weekend. So why not publicize then? They found nothing at that time apparently, yet they seem to have such high hopes (and desperation) with this search.

It was said they found rubber gloves, zip ties and tape, yet the police said "it wasn't anything". Hmmm

Grace4Ayla said...

Above should read "They found nothing relevant at that time"

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if the sheriff is actually "back at day one" or if they're being extra cautious and thorough building a rock-solid package of evidence before grabbing them.

Their worst nightmare here would be another Caylee Anthony getting zero justice despite her so-called mother's obvious guilt and lack of remorse, with the world watching.

Hopefully they can and will carefully inspect any "found" items and descern how long they've been there, who all has touched them.
I don't think this group is nearly bright enough, although Trina is a little manipulator, to have placed something earlier; she'll probably just dirty and mangle it a bit.

John Mc Gowan said...

"UNK: So, what’s your opinion on, they, you know they said, the sheriff of Lemhi County said they were starting over from, just as if it happened here yesterday, they’re starting fresh?

"DKS: Probably not a bad idea, I mean, we agree, I, cuz I said that’s what we’re thinking too, because something was, something’s been overlooked, something hasn’t been, whatever hasn’t been found is what we plan on finding, what we’re going to find. We, we, we’ve got to. I’m running, we’re running out of time, the weather’s not agreeing with us on a lot of this."

The pronoun change in the latter of this paragraph is interesting. He begins saying "i'm running" taking ownership, but then quickly moved to sharing responsibility with "we're", plural. Is it just the "weather" on his mind, or, is the time running out on him / them being found responsible for Deorr's disappearance.

John Mc Gowan said...

His pronouns are all over the place.

Anonymous said...

That sounds absolutely ludicrous! How anyone would be on the fence still after reading this is boggling. Of all things for hundreds of searchers to overlook, wth are they thinking?

Would kidnappers take time and risk to hide all that stuff AT the site, or take it with them, do ya think?!? And if "kidnappers" didn't care about being caught they would have just left those items in plain sight.

Anonymous said...

FoodieFoodNerd, you are aware that privately owned banks have some regulations that are different from national association banks, right? All Federally required regulations for the banking industry are the same for every bank; however, licensed state regulations are different for all privately owned banks that I am familiar with. Privately owned banks follow all federally required mandates just as NA banks do, but govern themselves under their state licensing regulations and are more privately operated.

For those who don't know; every bank that bears the initials NA at the end of their name is a National Association Bank and is operated under different privacy guidelines and regulations; i.e., Bank One, NA; Fifth-Third Bank, NA; Bank of America, NA; Central Trust Bank, NA and so on. Privately owned and operated banks do not have the NA at the end of their name.

National Association Banks are open to the scrutiny of every other NA bank in the world, thereby your privacy information is greatly diminished, being open to every other NA bank. This is not the case with privately owned banks who do not share your private information openly; who, btw, carries the same level of federally insured deposits as every other NA bank does. This is a federal requirement within the banking industry, making your funds just as secure at a privately owned bank as they would be at a NA bank.

I prefer the privacy and good will of a privately owned bank; as well, I find their fees and account maintenance charges considerably less, while being easier to do business with on a more personal level than dealing with a NA bank. With a NA bank you are a number, get in line. With a privately owned bank you are a person. On more than one occasion I have had small mountains moved for me at my privately owned bank that never would have happened at a NA bank. My bank does not give you the old crap story that it takes ten days to clear an out of state check. These checks are cleared practically overnight, at the most up to three days. Automatic deposits are credited and fully available at the moment they are electronically transferred for deposit.

I have no problem depositing cash into my checking account; nor do I have any problem having someone else make deposist into my account or driving through my bank and cashing a check for me even though they do not have an account there; or in letting someone else use my debit card temporarily by giving them my pin # and card. Should a problem arise with trusting someone else with your pin number, pin numbers can be changed in one or two days at my bank without having to go into the bank.

The management at my bank and all of the drive through tellers are very kind and helpful towards me and in every case with anyone else I have ever sent to them in every instance. I have had accounts at two individual privately owned banks for over twenty-five years. Not one unpleasant experience.

They have had a recent change in policy however, and will no longer accept for deposit a 3rd party check where a personal check has been made payable to another party who has signed the check over made payable to you, and you have signed it for deposit into your account.

This means that you can no longer help out a family member or anyone else who needs to deposit a check into your account for you to cash for them. All checks for deposit into your account must be made payable to you, the holder of the account. I don't know why the policy change but it must have been a big one since it because standard policy at both my banks.

Just thought you might like to know that there are many benefits in using a privately owned bank that you do not have at a NA bank. They say that "once you've tried it you won't go back." he he... Well, I can't speak for 'THAT' but I do know this applies to the banking industry...

Shannon In CA said...

I'm an attorney. I've never personally had a trust account but I can give you some information. What do you want to know?

Are they actively monitored? Not to my knowledge, at least in California. Maybe in other states. It would simply be too hard to review all trust accounts.

But I can tell you if an account doesn't balance PERFECTLY, even if a mistake is innocent and they attorney places his/her own money in the account to cover immediately, and the bar finds out, some sort of reprimand is coming. They take trust accounts super seriously.

And usually if you've got problems with your account, you're going to screw something else up and then they WILL audit the account and you're screwed.

Anything else you want to know?

S + K Mum said...

Grace4ayla, thanks for the transcript.

'everything in my mind I know has not been checked off' uh huh! After all the praising he did of the searchers and equipment being used - how they could pick up the tiniest detail, he knows there is an area/ areas that haven't been searched ?? An area he has left a camouflage boot or part of a blue item of clothing belonging to his son?

Grace4Ayla said...

Oops! Found a mistake! The UNK woman is actually Jessica, and the JM responses were the other woman! (Does anyone know who she is?) Neither talked much, but Jessica did talk more than I originally gave her credit for.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Sharon! I've never had a trust account either, and know next to nothing about them (beyond the irony of the entrusted person stealing the money).

The disciplinary board cited the eight "round sum figures" as evidence of her involvement, from which I inferred she was leaving some money in each account.

Would emptying the accounts have triggered their closure, and/or required the clients' signatures before releasing any funds?

With the strict rules you describe, is it legal for any trust holder, attorney or private, to transfer money into his or her personal account, especially without the trustee's signature?
(please correct any wrong terminology, the one whose money is in the account)

Thanks again for your professional insight!

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Anon; I didn't know any of the details about privately owned banks. Would a credit union be privately owned, or are there NA ones out there?
Can they sell out to a national bank?

The only reason I'm still stuck with one of the biggest and coldest is direct deposit and not nearly enough to stay afloat the few months Monster Bank would probably drag out the tranfer process.

My best friend and I have used each other's cards and info countless times to help each other, but now only at ATMs or stores.

Do you know if she could have a second card, whether in my name or hers, without tying together our credit and finances?
They own their home; I wouldn't want anything screwed up with their mortgage, or it unexpectedly emptying my meager account over a lost payment, or tax issues for either of us.

Thanks for the great insight!

Anonymous said...

G4A, how could you possibly find that family confusing? I've never met a more lucid, together bunch with such authority, such presence!

Seriously, kudos for getting any of that in print! Wishing you doughnut and steak capchas the rest of your posts today.

Anonymous said...

If a person is telling the truth, could the change from "I" to "we" in the last paragraph be a legit realization that he should be giving others credit, and not a shying away from responsibility himself?

ima.grandma said...

I found a couple of transcripts I hope to paste here before the iPad runs out. I think that youngest granddaughter of mine has misplaced my charger after using it for her iPod touch.


evening everyone. it's been 15 weeks since 2- year-old deorr kunz junior vanished from a campground near leadore. this weekend family, friends, and others around the community are searching near timber campground one last time before winter picks up.

"just our feet on the ground and look places that we don't think maybe we've covered...or that we wake up in the middle of the night thinking oh my heavens there's that spot" 

the toddler was last seen july 10th at timbercreek campground 10th at timbercreek campground near stone reservoir. family and friends are retracing their steps and looking under every nook and cranny near the d they need your help. they are asking anyone who has the time to come up to the campground.

"our efforts are this weekend is to put more feet on the ground and look at areas that we know dogs have been in, we know horses have been in but now that colors have changed and things like that we are on feet. you know, we've been advised take five steps...look up, look down, look around and you know that's what we're here to do this weekend" 

the search will continue through the weekend. the family plans on meeting everyone who can lend a hand at the sage stop gas station in leadore at 8 tomorrow morning. we'll hear from the parents tonight at 10. first look at the weather forecast this is the first look at the weather tonight with current conditions. here's a heartwarming story... today

ima.grandma said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ima.grandma said...


evening everyone. new tonight-15 weeks have come and gone since anyone has seen 2 year old deorr kunz junior. not only has the toddlers disappearance turned his family's life upside down... it has also touched lives around the nation. through facebook, email, and numerous calls... every week people from all over have been contacting us trying to get the latest information in this investigation. how the little boy went missing still remains a mystery tonight. lemhi county sheriff lyn bowerman believes the boy would have been found by search as rescue teams....but that isn't stopping family and friends from looking. they are searching near timber campground one last time before winter picks up.

"it's a living literally is" a parent ever wants to come true".

"you lose sight of who you are as a person...nothing matters anymore" 

for deorr kunz senior and jessica mitchell...a family camping trip is the last time they saw their child. almost four months ago...2- year-old deorr kunz junior vanished ten miles west of leadore at their timbercreek campsite. grandpa and a friend were supposed to be watching him...but thought he went down to the creek with his parents. his parents...were only away from the campsite for about twenty minutes.

"you sit and rack your brain day and night...what happened? what could've happened?" 

and now they spend almost every weekend looking for any trace of their little boy.

"there's so much ground to cover up here that we can't say one hundred perecent that every mile or every foot of this place has been searched" "we're trying to think one hundred perecent that every mile or every foot of this place has been searched" 

"we're trying to think of smaller areas that he may have gotten into" 

but baby deorrs grandma says they need your help this weekend...because mother nature will soon halt search efforts.

"the snow cap mountains and the puddles being's starting to get more real that we may get shut out until spring comes"

the family is determined to find their little blonde haired, brown eyed boy.

"i'm finding you son,  I'll do everything i can...until the day i die, i'm going to find you" "i miss you...and i love you more than anything in the world" "we will never ever stop looking for you and i pray that if anyone has him take him somewhere...and just drop him we can have him home...please i beg you" 

the family plans on meeting those who can lend a helping hand at the stage stop gas station in leadore at 8 tomorrow morning. if you believe you have seen deorr kunz jr., call your local police department. tips and information can be called into the idaho fusion center

gotta go @2%

Grace: maybe you can find time to edit and supply names of speakers. Thanks for your hard work.
Have a great Sunday evening everyone

Sus said...

I am convinced that Deorr sr's hesitations and mispeaks is a language disability. I am not speaking of his pronoun usage, however. I also agree with John. That is the paragraph which caught my eye.

"Probably not a bad idea, I mean, we agree..."
There is a dropped pronoun. He says it in the negative. He uses "I mean" to persuade, and then uses "we" rather than personally agreeing. He's not very committed to the idea of starting over.

"I, cuz, I said that's what we're thinking, too."
CUZ is highlighted as sensitive. He feels the need to explain why he (or we) agree to start over. Because that's what they were thinking. If they were thinking it, they've been planning and trying to find Little Deorr. So he feels the need to show they've been planning and searching. But wait. He doesn't say they have. He says "I said that's" and notice that's is distancing. Who did he say this to? Possibly LE since they are the ones starting over.

"because something was, something's been overlooked, something hasn't been, whatever hasn't been found is what we plan on finding, what we're going to find."
Another because makes this paragraph highly sensitive to Deorr sr. He feels the need to explain why he said they have been thinking about starting over. This part is strange in that he centers on the concrete (something) that wasn't found. How can you know an object isn't found if you don't know it's there? I don't understand.

"We, we, we've got to."
Speaking of finding "something." WE

"I'm running, we're running, out of time. The weather's not agreeing with us on a lot of this."
To say I'm then switch to we is troubling. The only other time in this paragraph he used I was to say "I said." Maybe part of starting over is to reinterview Deorr sr, and it didn't go his way.

Sorry so long.

Anonymous said...

the toddler was last seen july 10th at timbercreek campground 10th at timbercreek campground near stone reservoir. family and friends are retracing their steps and looking under every nook and cranny near the d they need your help. they are asking anyone who has the time to come up to the campground.

DKS: Trying to go over, double search, double, wherever, what’s been searched, go over it again, what hasn’t been searched, anything that may have been over-looked, little pockets, things like that, little sections that could have been overlooked, ok well now we’re gonna, kinda, nar-try to narrow down into one spot here, one spot here, just trying to figure out everything

What's this:"gotta go @2% "

Unlikely this child was abducted. More likely an animal smelled fresh food and snatched and ran. They know humans bring goodies. Some think humans are goodies. Competition would cause the animal to flee further into the woods if it didn't want to share. He didn't just poof out of there.

ima.grandma said...

What's this:"gotta go @2% "

That was me typing as fast as I could before the iPad died. The battery was at 2% and if it shut off, I'd lose my info.
I'm sorry to confuse you but I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I saw that. Thanks for the giggles.

Anonymous said...

Another thing that has always sort of concerned me; is, why did they have a campfire going in early July on a hot day in the morning or mid-day, when nothing has ever been said about any meal preparations that necessitated the use of a campfire? If they'd had one lit the night before, prior to bedding down for the night when it might have been chilly, I could understand; but why during the day time in the middle of summer if no one was heating up or cooking anything? If anyone had been using the campfire, why has no one said so?

HOWEVER, it has occurred to me that what if we are A.L.L. WRONG and little DeOrr actually DID disappear at the hands of a child abductor????! NOT an animal snatcher who hypothetically grabbed him and devoured him off in the woods (this would have left some evidence, blood, gore, shredded clothing, whatever, okay?) but an actual abduction leaving no evidence?

I know, and agree, every aspect of this case points directly to baby daddy DeOrr and mommy dearest Jessica; BUT,it HAS been known to happen where a child was found years later long after the parents lives had been destroyed and after having been blamed for the childs' disappearance and with all fingers being pointed in their direction; then it turns out they were innocent all along.

I'm as guilty as everyone else of suspecting (and believing) these parents disposed of this baby themselves; however, we do know that things are not always as they appear to be.

lynda said...

No reliable denial

Unknown said...

I received an email not long ago with the headline "US Department Of Homeland Security" subject: Suspect Terror Activity".

An interesting scare tactic. The email was probably one of the best scam emails I've ever seen. Contact information for DoHS, an email account, even the address of the building. I was impressed.

I wasn't impressed for long, however as 1) not only did it appear as though the person got lazy half way through and no longer cared about proper grammar or spelling, but he started repeating information in previous paragraphs. 2) addressed me as "sir or madam" and 3) asked me to verify my first and last name, address, and phone number. I "had to provide" that information to keep from being investigated for funding terrorist activities.

I was impressed at first but the feeling didn't last. I posted it on Facebook for my friends and family to see, and used what I've learned from SA to highlight keywords and provided instructions to contact local PD.

This woman, however, wouldn't know the truth if she fell in a bowl of soup made of it. I hope the people get their money back.

Unknown said...

I received an email not long ago with the headline "US Department Of Homeland Security" subject: Suspect Terror Activity".

An interesting scare tactic. The email was probably one of the best scam emails I've ever seen. Contact information for DoHS, an email account, even the address of the building. I was impressed.

I wasn't impressed for long, however as 1) not only did it appear as though the person got lazy half way through and no longer cared about proper grammar or spelling, but he started repeating information in previous paragraphs. 2) addressed me as "sir or madam" and 3) asked me to verify my first and last name, address, and phone number. I "had to provide" that information to keep from being investigated for funding terrorist activities.

I was impressed at first but the feeling didn't last. I posted it on Facebook for my friends and family to see, and used what I've learned from SA to highlight keywords and provided instructions to contact local PD.

This woman, however, wouldn't know the truth if she fell in a bowl of soup made of it. I hope the people get their money back.

Anonymous said...

Interesting repetition

searched, searched, searched, check, checked, checked, checked, ground, ground, ground, overlooked, overlooked, cover, covered, feet, feet, feet, feet, foot, boot, boot, boot, running, running.

So now the dad wants the public's help. I suppose so that a MOP will helpfully find a blue boot planted there to send everyone off on a wild goose.

I love the 'we wake up in the middle of the night, thinking blah blah blah'

I'm sure he does wake up in the middle of the night, wondering what he's overlooked and forgotten to check though. Guilty.