Thursday, August 29, 2019

Mother Charged for Leaving Baby in the Car



Recall the NYC case recently analyzed here and compare his words to this mother's words:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/23/us/mother-arrest-bodycam-baby-hot-car/index.html



NYC






25 comments:

John Mc Gowan said...

This is not universal. Guilt sharing. Hiding among a crowd. Taking no responsibility. Concern for self not for what the baby went through.

I don't know, I honestly don't know how it happened. I don't ... I'm freaking out, I'm sorry. I just, I don't know how it happened. Like, how do you forget your baby?" Holly says to an officer during an interview, police footage shows.
"I think that these people who do it who you see on TV, I'm like, 'God, how stupid are they to leave their kids in the car?' And then it happened," Holly says.

frommindtomatter said...

For me it’s a tricky one. The mother knows she has done something wrong regardless if it was deliberate or accidental. She will be worried that the police and others will see her as neglectful which could lead to her losing her baby and perhaps her other older child. I would expect her to use a lot of convincing language in her statements which she does. She badly needs to convince those who may doubt her that she has made a genuine mistake.

She uses distancing language but it may be due to her not wanting to accept responsibility for a genuine mistake as it is such a serious one. That is what the mind does to help protect us from unpleasant realities. Who would want to accept that they accidentally forgot their baby?

She does not try to make any stories up of how this might have happened. She is not trying to blame anyone else for what has occurred. By her repeatedly saying “I don’t know” and not adding to it with excuses it comes across as a genuine case of “blanking out”. Juan Rodriguez said “I blanked out” in relation to leaving his children in his car.

Stacey Holly tells us “I don't know I honestly don't know how it happened” and I expect her to use honestly in this context as she knows how serious things are.

At one point she says “I`m sorry” which we see as an admittance of guilt, but we must consider that in her mind if this has happened accidentally she still will accept she has done something wrong and by saying sorry she actually takes responsibility for her actions.

Adrian.

Autumn said...

First thing I thought when reading this story was: thank God the baby is OK. The mother doesn´t say that though. Or maybe she did and it´s just not included in the article/footage? In any case, she´s too busy convincing the police she didn´t do it on purpose for my taste. For example:

"We didn´t do it on purpose obviously, we just are stupid and forgot that we had a baby with us."

It is her baby, not her sister´s so she should take responsibility by saying "I" and "me" instead of "we" and "us". But she prefers to share the guilt. "Obviously" is meant to persuade. Why does she need persuasion if it´s the truth? I think it was maybe convenient for her to leave her baby behind in the car while buying sushi. Also: I assume both her baby and her 6-year-old were in the back seats of the car. If so, how could she overlook her baby while at the same time getting her 6-year-old out of the back of the car? In addition: there were two adults in the car. What are the odds that not only the mother but also her sister forgot about the baby (and thus didn´t warn the mother)?

Autumn said...

^^I just notice that the above statement ("we didn´t do it on purpose..." etc.) was probably made by the sister and not by the mother. So please disregard what I wrote about it.

frommindtomatter said...

"I think that [these] people who [do it], who [you] see on TV, I'm like, 'God, how [stupid] are they [to leave] their kids in the car?' And then [it] happened," Holly says.

Holly talks of the people who “do it”, so I look to see what that is connected to. In this sentence it is connected to “to [leave] their kids in the car”. I see she is talking about leaving kids instead of forgetting about kids which is what would be appropriate. This worries me as I would expect her to talk about people forgetting if this is what she has done, but her mind selects the word “leave”. She has left her baby in her car but can we accept that as appropriate language?

She uses the word “stupid” to describe these people, stupid means to lack intelligence or common sense. If you left your phone in your car would you call yourself stupid? Would it be a lack of intelligence that caused you to leave it or simple absent mindedness or a loss of concentration? I don’t think it is stupid to have a loss of concentration perhaps due to thinking about something else and forget something. She groups herself with the “stupid people”. Also the sentence is in present tense. She talks of people who “do it” instead of people who “have done it”. Then she says “how stupid are they” instead of “how stupid were they” and finally she says “to leave” instead of to “have left” their kids in the car.

The convincing language is expected whether she is guilty or innocent, but the distancing language raises red flags as it is not expected. She wants to convince but will not take responsibility for what has happened.

I would really like to hear Peter`s thoughts on this (please Peter if you have time).

Adrian.

frommindtomatter said...

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/gma/story/cautious-mom-hot-car-scare-plea-parents-lawmakers-64651153

Adrian

Nadine Lumley said...

Men blank out because their corpus collisium sp? is smaller than in a women's brains.

Women can mix their thoughts and feelings very easily. Men, just as you said, compartmentalize everything.

If a woman tells a man something while he's watching t.v., it's literally as if he were deaf.... he literally did not hear her.

This comes from decades of scientific work by Dr. Pat Allen from Los Angeles.


Book:  Why men don't listen and women can't read maps

https://www.amazon.ca/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639 👍👦👼


...

frommindtomatter said...

I had another look at this today and still have a problem with the words “do it” “leave” and “stupid”.

"I think that [these] people who [do it], who [you] see on TV, I'm like, 'God, how [stupid] are they [to leave] their kids in the car?' And then [it] happened," Holly says.

To “do” something involves an action to be taken by someone. When someone does something it has purpose behind it. When we do things we must think about what we are going to do before actually doing them so it takes planning. I expect to hear “who it happens to” as when something happens it can be from an external force. If you get a flat tyre on your car you would not hold yourself responsible for it and you would speak of when it “happened”. You may have driven over some rough terrain which played a part in the tyre being damaged but you would not say you had done it (“do it”). When something happens due to us doing something intentionally we will say “I did it”, but if it was unintentional (even if we played a part it) we will say it happened.

She does not tell us this “happens” to other people but says that they “do it”, they “leave” their kids, and for doing that they are “stupid”. She groups herself with these people by describing what they do and then saying “And then [it] happened.

After reviewing this again I can see the rest of the language, “I`m sorry” and all the distancing she uses point to her literally “leaving” her child in the car intentionally. I find subject matter like this harder to analyse as I have to remove myself from it. The natural thought of any parent is how the hell could this happen? There is a denial to accept that anyone could do something like this deliberately. I know it affects how I look at such statements and it takes longer for me to be objective in my analysis.

Adrian.

Anonymous said...

I would love to see an analysis of NYT writer Bret Stephens, explaining his email to the professor (and the prof.'s provost) on MSNBC. His voice seemed to shake.

Autumn said...

Adrian, I think it's to your credit that you cannot accept that anyone could do this deliberately. I don't think the mother meant to hurt the baby. One of the police officers says he can't believe the baby survived that long and that the mother probably had the car ice cold before they parked. Maybe due to the initial cold temperature she didn't realize how quickly the car would heat up (?).

I have a problem with "it happened". The mother left her baby in the car, yet she blames "it". It's a way of not taking responsibility. Juan Rodrigquez said: "I left them in the car" and then said he blanked out. So he took responsibility. But there's something else I don't like about "and then it happened". It's subtle and hard to explain exactly why and I don't know if I'm right about it. It's as if she's saying she experienced something ("it happened") at that moment ("then"). But if she forgot her baby, she likely didn't experience anything at all with regard to her baby at that moment. And actually the opposite would be more true in that case: nothing happened (or: something failed to happen). So the words “and then it happened” don’t seem entirely appropriate. I would have found it less strange if she had said: "and then it happened to me" (like you say Adrian) because that would point not so much to an external event taking place but could also point to her having a certain mindset (being absent minded).

There is another video clip on youtube where the mother says: “We got out, go into the store and I, we forgot her. I, I don’t know how we forgot her but we just forgot her.” Here it seems as if she’s going to take responsibility but then she quickly switches to “we” to share the guilt? Also: I don’t like the order of events here: (1) they got out, (2) they went into the store and (3) they forgot her. This order might suggest that she only forgot her baby when she was already in the store. Maybe they initially intended to get sushi and return to the car quickly and (stupidly!) decided to leave the baby in the car for convenience purposes but forgot the time and the baby once they were in the store. I also wonder if the fact that she says “We got out” means that something of importance happened while getting out of the car that she’s not telling. Of course she had to get out or else she couldn’t go into the store. Is this similar to when someone says: “I left my house and went to the store” -> something of importance happened at the house? I guess in this case it’s a little bit different: it’s more logical the mother mentions getting out of the car because the police obviously wanted to know what did or didn’t happen at that moment.

See here for the videoclip (at around 1:36): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96SYtj9t-HY

Another thing I noticed in the CNN video (at the 1:40 mark): the sisters embrace each other and one of them says: “Why did we forget her.” The other answers: “I don’t know”. The first one repeats: “Why did we forget her.” Apart from the fact that it sounds to me as if they were acting here, I would have expected “How could we forget / have forgotten her”. “Why” implies that there is a reason why they left the baby in the car i.m.o.

frommindtomatter said...

Autumn said -

There is another video clip on youtube where the mother says: “We got out, go into the store and I, we forgot her. I, I don’t know how we forgot her but we just forgot her.”

“This order might suggest that she only forgot her baby when she was already in the store.”

Yes Autumn good point, this is interesting and to expand on what you are saying regarding “we forgot her”.

“We got out” (past tense with pronoun), “go into the store” (present tense) and

“I”, we” (change of pronoun) – She cannot say “I” forgot her because it would allow for others (sister and daughter) to not have forgotten her. By changing pronoun she may hope to avoid being asked if everyone had forgotten the baby which would be a sensitive question for her to have to answer.

What you said about the order is bang on the money, and to add to that I see something unexpected in her words. I would expect:

“We got out, go into the store and I, we [realised we had forgotten] her”

She does not say they realised they had forgotten her, and like you said she places forgetting the baby when she was already in the store which is the wrong place for it. The forgetting would have already been done unawares and we expect her to talk of the realisation that she has forgotten the baby.

Autumn you mentioned “I also wonder if the fact that she says “We got out” means that something of importance happened while getting out of the car that she’s not telling”

“We got out, go into the store and I, we forgot her”.

“We got out” is very passive language, it limits information. She does not tell us what she got out of (the car) and what was happening at that point. That point is sensitive to her. What happened when they got out was a decision made to leave the baby? She limits flow of information. Then we see she moves to present tense language “go into the store” instead “went into the store”.

“go into the store [and] I, we forgot her” – I believe the present tense points to storytelling and is connected with the word “and” to the unexpected “forgot her” which is as you mentioned out of order and is the wrong language anyway as we expect “realised we had forgotten her”.

Adrian.

Vero said...

OT
Conception boat fire
From the questions asked, it seems the divers were locked below, with no chance of escape.
Quite a disturbing scenario, why would this have been so?



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/santa-cruz-island-dive-boat-conception-disaster-the-transcript/ar-AAGHTCM

LOS ANGELES -- The commercial diving boat the Conception was ravaged by flames under a dark sky before dawn on Monday near the coast of Santa Barbara, California. Five crew members escaped, four bodies were later recovered and the other 29 passengers were feared dead.

After five crew members managed to escape to a nearby pleasure boat, U.S. Coast Guard service members asked whether they could reboard the burning vessel to see if they could unlock the passenger compartment where 33 passengers had been asleep and appeared to be trapped.

...................................................................................

In the following audio from a mayday call from the Conception, only the Coast Guard broadcasts can be heard, not the responses.

-------------------

Coast Guard: Your vessel is on fire, is that correct?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Roger, you're on board Conception?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Roger, there are 33 people on board the vessel that's on fire and they can't get off?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Roger, are they locked inside the boat?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Roger, can you get back on board and unlock the doors so they can get off?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Roger, you don't have any firefighting gear at all, no fire extinguishers or anything?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: Is this the captain of the Conception?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: (Unintelligible). Roger, was that all the crew that jumped off?

Vessel: (Unintelligible)

CG: There's no escape hatch for any of the people on board?

After a pause, the conversation continues with the Coast Guard dispatcher double checking the position, asking if there are other boats in the area and requesting firefighting help from them. The Coast Guard puts out another general distress broadcast telling other boats that 34 people are trapped below deck on the dive boat and asking them to lend assistance.

"We have people on the way."

This article originally appeared on USA TODAY: Santa Cruz Island dive boat Conception disaster: The transcript

Michaela said...

10-year-old Skylea Carmack, who has autism, has been missing since ‪Saturday afternoon. She was last seen at her home on the 200 block of East South D Street.

Skylea’s father believes she ran away. However, police are not ruling anything out at this point.

Skylea’s father, Kevin Carmack, said he’s grateful for the support of the community.

“It’s been amazing. I couldn’t have asked for a better turnout,” said Kevin.

He said he was at work and Skylea was home with her stepmom when she went missing Saturday. He believes his daughter ran away because she was grounded and upset about it.

“And it just went a little too far and she got stuck and now she’s just scared to come home cause she’s afraid now she is going to be in even more trouble,” said Kevin.

If that’s the case, he wants her to know she won’t be.

“We’re not even mad at this point we are just worried about her being OK just want her to come home,” said Kevin.

What’s up with this, guys? What went a little too far? Why is ‘stuck’ and ‘can’t get out’ in his language? Why are only they not mad at this point?

Michaela said...

I forgot the rest.

He’s trying to stay positive but he does fear the worst.

“That she got lost, or she fell in one of these woods and she’s hurt and can’t get back out,” said Kevin.

Sunny Osborn lives next door to the Carmack family.

“I just hope they find her alive and well,” said Osborn. “We love you Skylea, just come home, safely.”

Her father said Skylea has a history of running away but usually she goes to his mom’s house.

“I have to remain hopeful that she is still OK and she is just hiding out with a friend or she found an old garage that she can hide in,” said Kevin.

John Mc Gowan said...

OT:

Heidi Elaine Schmutz Fictim of Kidnapping

New Port Richey, Pasco County, Florida. Uber Eats delivery driver carjacked, sexually assaulted and falsely imprisoned by a man while loading food into her car? Keyword: "falsely". Actually, the falsely accused man only had a small payment dispute with the female driver, and so she made herself out to be the ultimate victim of sorts.

August 14, 2019. Early morning hours. Uber Eats driver Heidi Elaine Schmutz reported to the Authorities that around 3 am, a man jumped in the front passenger seat while she loaded food in her SUV. The identified man allegedly claimed he had a firearm, ordered her to drive by his instructions, ceased her phone and repeatedly groped her boobs. Heidi Schmutz said she convinced him to allow her deliver the food. While that happened, she alleged that she tried to get the attention of the Uber Eats customer but was unsuccessful. She further alleged she only managed to escape when her kidnapper forced her to stop at a motel parking lot where he tried to force her into a room with two other men.

Guilty until Proven Innocent

Following the allegations, the 31-year-old man she accused was arrested and charged with False Imprisonment. His name was released to the media even though he denied the claims during interrogation. Meanwhile, Heidi also took to the media here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MgziqkuZA ) with her claims.

As a part of their investigation, detectives reviewed surveillance footage from the motel area and discovered that Heidi Schmutz appeared to be neither in distress nor under duress. When interviewed again by investigators about the improbabilities, Heidi Schmutz confessed to cooking the claims. She admitted that she agreed to give the man a paid ride but when he couldn't pay, she fabricated the allegations and exaggerated the events to make her claims more believable.

August 15, 2019. 33-year-old Heidi Elaine Schmutz was arrested and charged with filing a false report. She was booked in Pasco County jail on a total bond of $150.

More..

https://falsevictims.com/fictim/440/heidi-elaine-schmutz

John Mc Gowan said...

OT:

Snipped:

This is a post (facebook) that has been released that the woman who strangled her 10 year old boyfriends child wrote. The woman murdered this little 10 yr old. She hid her in a shed. The press is calling her the step mom but evidently she was just the dad's live in.

Amanda Carmack

Soo..Iv'e got a child that has been hiding food in their pants an flushing it after the meal regularly! This same child has also been sneaking hot cocoa packets and candy, eating them and hiding them in her bed. Then..she tried to lie about it. that's just the past week. Previously she has run away, stolen money from me and continually lied about anything she thinks i'm to busy/stupid to know about. I'm really at the end of my rope with this one.

"I'm really at the end of my rope with this one".

Interesting choice of words given she "strangled" her.

Could she be subconsciously be projecting what was to come.

https://www.facebook.com/lesliescoldcasepage/?__tn__=%2CdkCH-R-R&eid=ARAIx7Sc0REdIrwzwqwob2lbB_6HSIlD2xrf6G7V129E72WneZARST8_hH1SwWKvPE0kWyWE8iNKTTdQ&hc_ref=ARReMjK3U3LtU4UD0UdXe9DLCe3eHsFe4zTk7X-t-yp4r4XBvtBwqp2Du_Wys48C-rA&fref=nf&hc_location=group

General P. Malaise said...

a lot of justification in this. poor child.

Soo..Iv'e got a child that has been hiding food in their pants an flushing it after the meal regularly! This same child has also been sneaking hot cocoa packets and candy, eating them and hiding them in her bed. Then..she tried to lie about it. that's just the past week. Previously she has run away, stolen money from me and continually lied about anything she thinks i'm to busy/stupid to know about. I'm really at the end of my rope with this one.

Autumn said...

OT: Skylea Carmack

Given that Skylea's body was found hidden in the family's home shed it's also interesting that her father said (before Skylea was found):

“I have to remain hopeful that she is still OK and she is just hiding out with a friend or she found an old garage that she can hide in”.

Anonymous said...

OT: Skylea

"Dad" gave it away almost immediately.

frommindtomatter said...

Kevin Carmack

“And [it] [just] went a [little] too far and she got [stuck] and [now] she’s [just scared] to come home cause she’s afraid [now] she is going to be in [even] more trouble,” said Kevin.

Does the father know what happened to his daughter?

“It” – What is it? It specifies something but fails to identify what it is. (Distancing language)

“just” went a “little” too far – Whatever “it” is, it is minimised with the word “just” and then further minimised with the word “little”. If something has gone “too far” we know it has gone past a certain point. That point is usually what we call the limit or point of no return. He is saying she has gone past the limit but tries to minimise x2.

she got “stuck” – When something is stuck it cannot be moved. Why would he describe his daughter as stuck, was she in a position where she could not move physically?

and “now” she’s “just scared” – He compares her being scared with something else (dead possibly?) and uses a time reference “now”.

[cause] she’s afraid [now] she is going to be in even more trouble” - We have justification of “scared” (cause) with the word “afraid” and a second reference to “now”. Repeated words equal sensitivity and he has used “Scared” and “afraid” which are similar and “now x2”. His use of now could be a need to convince that she is still alive “now” and he is showing sensitivity by repeating it.

Original sentence was 33 words if we take out the extra unnecessary words we have the 24 words below.

“And it went a too far and she’s scared to come home cause she’s afraid she is going to be in even more trouble,”

I will be interested to hear if he is connected to her death in any way.

Adrian.

frommindtomatter said...

Kevin Carmack

“We’re not even mad at this point we are just worried about her being OK just want her to come home,” said Kevin.

Notice there is no pronoun “I” or “we” placed before “just want her to come home”. There is no commitment to those words. Also the father uses “we`re” and “we” to align himself with the Stepmom where I would look for the pronoun “I” in his statement. He was alone while being interviewed so I expect him to use “I”.

He says “We’re not even mad at this point” but fails to connect that to Skylea. He does not say we are not mad at/with “her” or “Skylea”.

I see as of now the Police are not looking for other suspects so he must have an alibi? The question is does he know anything about what happened.

Adrian.

Habundia said...

The 'forgotten baby', for some reason I find it hard to believe that two adults and a six year old girl, would all three, together, at the same time, 'forget' a baby in the car.
What I do can think of is that the baby was asleep when they 'got out and go' and they thought to do a quick shopping, that while shopping they forgot time and the baby.
But she tells her 'she doesn't know what happened', to me she should have any explanation for leaving the baby in the car, she didnt say she forgot her child, untill at the store. If that is what happened why cant she say it?

OT: Skyla Carmack
Another sad and tragic senseless child murder, they make me so mad.

"Amanda Carmack

Soo..Iv'e got a child that has been hiding food in their pants an flushing it after the meal regularly! This same child has also been sneaking hot cocoa packets and candy, eating them and hiding them in her bed. Then..she tried to lie about it. that's just the past week. Previously she has run away, stolen money from me and continually lied about anything she thinks i'm to busy/stupid to know about. I'm really at the end of my rope with this one.

'I've got a child'
This is not her own child isn't it?
'that has been (past tense) hiding food in their pants (shouldnt it be her? Who's their? has she 'had other children who have been hiding food in their pants'? she probably cant cook a tastefull meal I guess then, speculation of course or didnt they get enough food?
'With this one'
She sounds as if she has done this before, maybe not killing but abuse children in her care.

When I read 'end of my robe', my immediate thought was 'did she use a robe to kill this child'?
Then I read she did. Why do people (man or woman) let these people around their children?
If that woman was just the father's live in, she shouldn't be given the childs last name. She would still have her maiden name I think?
If these few things (food flushing through toilet, stolen candy, hot cocao packets, ran away, stolen money, lying about it) make her reach the 'end of her robe' that easy she's a danger to children, teens.
Poor child.

StarTender said...

"I think that these people who do it, who you see on T.V., I'm like, 'God, how stupid are they to leave their kids in the car?' And then it happened."

- "I think (no, she doesn't 'think') that these (saying 'these' to explain there are others besides herself) people (being specific about our species) who do it, who you see on T.V. (because YOU, as well as everyone else in the world, can learn all about 'it' on public television) I'm like (saying 'like' allows an extra millisecond of thinking) God (extra impact) how stupid (a diplomatic term considering her baby almost melted) are they ('they', not her) to leave their (not someone else's) kids in the car? And then (pause) it happened ('it' is distancing).

"I don't know, I honestly don't know, how it happened. I don't. I'm freaking out, I'm sorry. I just don't know how it happened. Like, how do you forget your baby?"
- I don't know, I honestly don't know (repeating, as well as adding 'honestly', for extra convincing) how it happened ('it' is more distancing) I don't (repetitive) I'm freaking out (altered state?), I'm sorry (about what, the acting?) I just don't know how it happened (a reminder that 'it' happened). Like (more pause) how do you forget your baby? (Who, me? Seems like deflecting).

Had the car actually been ice-cold before they parked? If so, that's very convenient, and could be used as bonus points for the mom.

"Stacy Holly, 37, told a police officer that it was an accident."
- What, the baby? Thank goodness she and her sister both remembered to remove at least the six-year-old from the ice-cold car.

Sister: "Honestly, we were talking about ordering lunch. We got out of the car and we were talking about ordering sushi. And we just walked in, like, it was just not even a thought."
- Honestly (why would they lie?) we (both of them) were talking about ordering (not just talking, not just ordering, but talking ABOUT ordering) lunch. We (both) got out of the car (glad she mentioned that) and we (all inclusive) were talking about ordering (more talking about ordering) sushi (extra info, describing the lunch they were talking about ordering).

"Holly reportedly called 911 when she realized what she had done."
- 'Reportedly' is not definitely. Is there a chance she did not call 911? Does it still need to be verified? Did she rush to her car first, after realizing what she had done, and then make the call?

"We didn't do it on purpose, obviously. We just are stupid, and forgot that we had a baby with us."
- We (not just her) didn't do it ('it' sounds detached) on purpose (feeling a need to explain), obviously (more convincing). We just are (awkward phrasing) stupid (just plain ol' 'stupid') and forgot that we (everybody) had a baby ('a' baby sounds insignificant) with us (again, not just her, but 'us').

"Why did we forget her?" "I don't know." "Why did we forget her?"
- Why (how about 'HOW') did we (not just Holly) forget her ('her' sounds like distancing) I don't know (actually answering). Why did we forget her (repeating sounds over-dramatic).

My amateur conclusion is they MIGHT have been high or on pills, since they were getting something to eat, lost track of time, freaked out, became stupid and repetitive, and over-explained things.

Or else they are actually trying to get rid of a baby.

There was minimal crying but maybe that's because the baby survived so the gut-wrenching feeling of loss wasn't there. To me, it looked like fake drama, as if the two women were self-conscious about themselves. That awkward hug at the end didn't help, either.

;)

Maddie said...

Yeah she’s full of it. Not an iota of concern for her baby.

Maddie said...

Yes. Left baby intentionally for a quick five minutes. Became distracted while in store and THEN forgot her. She’s a negligent mother.