Thursday, December 22, 2016

Nathan Carman: Mother Missing At Sea




Nathan Carman was found by the US Coast Guard after one week at sea in his life boat.  

His mother was not found and is presumed deceased.   

Analytical Question:

Does Nathan Carman truthfully report what happened?

Several years ago  Nathan Carman was Person of Interest in his grandfather's murder but was not arrested.  Grandfather left a reported $40 million dollars to his four daughters, one of whom was subject's mother.  


Subject:  Nathan Carman is reported to have Aspergers.  In language, this is similar to adult autism and will impact language, particularly in view of emotions.  A lack of emotional language should be considered acceptable.  Analysis looks for possible deception via withheld information.  With Asperger's, there is an intention to be understood in communication, meaning that with deception, there is an intention to deceive.  

Also with Asperger's we often find childhood history of violence, and/or a preoccupation with death, including animals.   Many males diagnosed with Asperger's are above average intelligence.  With analysis, communication is commonly noted in areas of emotion with those diagnosed with Asperger's.  Unlike other developmental delays in adults, Asperger's often reveals very strong intellects with critical thinking while often using avoidance language regarding their own emotions.  The language can 'appear' dry and 'matter of fact', which can belie the emotion beneath.  Statement Analysis is used whenever communication is presupposed by the subject 

This past fall, in  watching interviews of Nathan Carman while filming ABC's "20/20", he showed a strong command of facts and was clear in his motive.  

I.               Transcripts
II.             Transcripts with Analysis
III.           Conclusion 

I.               Transcripts  

NC:  Hello, this is Nathan Carman.  
CG:  Nathan, this is United States Coast Guard Boston

NC:  Hello” (pause due to echo)  yes I hear you” 

CG:  Uh, yes sir, I, I need to understand uh, what happened.  Over.”


NC:  Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, were fishing at Block Canyon.  And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment, I looked and saw a lot of water. I was bringing  the line had my mom bring in the reel I brought up the safety stuff forward and I was bringing one of the safety bags forward the boat’s (or just)  dropped out from under my feet.  Uh, when I saw the life raft I did not see my mom. Uh,  have you found her?

CG:  No, we, uh, we haven’t been able to find her yet.  

NC:  So I got to the life raft after I got my bearings and I was whistling and calling and looking around and I didn’t see her. 

CG:  understood, ok

NC:  We were fishing around block canyon.  

CG:  And when did that happen?

NC:  I don’t have the exact coordinates.

CG:  (echo:  And when did that happen?) 

NC:   yes, It was a week ago today around mid day.

CG:   ok so last Sunday?

NC:   yeah.

II.            Transcripts with Analysis 

For those considering training:  please consider that his is a brief and basis statement analysis of the transcript for a single purpose of discerning truth or deception.  Content Analysis done upon the statement, along with the emerged psycho-linguistic profile is separate.  The analysis is done to answer the Analytical Question  


NC:  Hello, this is Nathan Carman.  
CG:  Nathan, this is United States Coast Guard Boston, Ok

NC:  Hello” (pause due to echo)  yes I hear you” 

CG:  Uh, yes sir, I, I need to understand uh, what happened.  Over.”

This is our most important question, “What happened?”

We consider that with Asperger’s there may be a reduction in emotional language, but often within the language is logic; sometimes a very strong intellect propelled by logic.  We expect him to tell us immediately, what happened, with only a brief introduction, such as, "My mom and I went fishing, and we had an accident, and..." 

NC:  Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, 

Here we have an emphasis upon being only two persons present for the event.  With the emphasis, we should consider the possibility of a third person on the mind of the subject.  This could be an eye witness, or someone who may known him well.  His need to emphasize is not due to Asperger’s, as there is no repetitive language following this.  

Note that it is unnecessary for him to clarify that the two “people” were “myself and my mom” here.  “Mom” is “my mom” while going out fishing which shows he viewed her positively at this time (while fishing).  “Mom”, repeated, increases the sensitivity.  

Regardless, he is, in the least, thinking of a third person, whether it be an eye witness, or someone important to him.  

The order changes which means change of priority.  Mom and I” to “myself and my mom”, changing the order. 


were fishing at Block Canyon. 

He begins with the (1) people, (2) activity and (3) location rather than “My mom fell overboard…” or anything like it.  “We had an accident…” or any direct answer would have been expected, but is not here.  
The introduction is ‘slow’ in pace, which suggests that he does not want to get to ‘what happened’.  The overwhelming number of deceptive statements are heavily weighted in the introduction.  The deceptive part of the ‘story’ is stressful, therefore, the subject often avoids going directly to it.  We measure the ‘pace’ of an account and note that this one, in particularly, is very slow.  


 And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment,

“And” :  There was a pause between sentences.  “And” when at the beginning of a sentence indicates missing information.  The slow pace continues, avoiding getting to the direct information about what happened to the missing person.  This is often associated with psychological guilt; not always guilt meaning remorse, but fear of being caught.  

“There was a funny noise  

This is reported in passive voice.  Passivity is used appropriately when one does not know the source, but it is also used to conceal responsibility.  What is concerning here is the combination of the passivity with the descriptive term:  funny noise.”

He describes the noise as “funny” while using passivity.  This will cause us to ask if he caused this “funny” noise.  He does not report an emergency, nor something out of control.  The passivity would be expected with an explosion, not a “funny noise.”

He is likely telling the truth about hearing the noise, but he may have caused what happened to make the noise, while avoiding telling us the source of the noise, or what made it "funny" to him.  


 looked and saw a lot of water. 

He does not say “I saw a lot of water”, but he “looked” first.  This is akin to story telling and it continues to slow down the pace.  He does not tell us where he looked, or what he looked at.  This, too, is akin to story telling and indicates he is withholding information.  He did not say “I looked at the noise”, but that he “looked” and saw “a lot of water”, not an engine issue.  

This is two separate actions in his description.  It also avoids telling us what caused him to see a lot of water (note the passivity previously).  This separate action (in writing) further suggests that he caused the “funny noise” to have happened.  If so, we should expect more passivity in his language, which would remove him from the responsibility.    

He does not say that the noise caused water to fill up.  A “lot of water” may be his mother overboard.  Why was the noise “funny”?  Was it the sound of ‘gurgling’ or drowning?

This appears to be when he was looking outside the boat, where there is a lot of water.  Did he watch her drown or struggle? 


I was bringing  the line had my mom bring in the reel 

Self censoring is when one stops himself, mid sentence.  The audio is difficult but he may have stopped himself here. 
He does not say “I brought”,  but “I was bringing” which shows ongoing action, (lengthening time)  rather than a single, ended action.   He soon will use the complete past tense, “I brought” below, so it is not his pattern or habit.  

Note “the reel” is not “a reel” and since he has not introduced a reel, it may be that they did not actually fish as this point, but something else took place.  

We may consider that his mother may have been impacted by the line; controlled by him, her neck, etc.  


I brought the safety stuff forward and I was bringing one of the safety bags forward the boat just dropped out from under my feet.

These are two separate actions. One is complete while the other is ‘on going’ or lengthening of time.  This is another indicator of missing information in his answer. 

I brought the safety stuff forward” is a complete action.  This, while there was “a lot of water”; yet, he then goes to another activity in which there is no completion, but an elongation of time with “I was bringing…”  In this part of his statement, his mother is missing.  He does not mention her here, and it is likely that she was already in the water.  


The focus:  He only brought “one” of the safety bags.  This may show intention to save his own life knowing there was no intention on saving two lives; the “two people” he began his statement with.   He did not bring “safety bags” but only one

Regarding the “boat just dropped out from my feet” the audio is not clear, but it is, also, passive voice.  
  We must consider that he knew the cause of the event. 


 Uhwhen I saw the life raft I did not see my mom.


Here, he speaks to time, not an event. He does not say “I saw the life raft” but “when”, which focuses upon time, not action.  This, too, suggests missing information.   
He reports not when he got to the life raft, but when he ‘saw’ it.  He reports what he did not see. 

Negation:  Truthful people tell us what happened, what they saw, what they heard, etc.  In an open statement, when one tells us what they did not see, we must be on alert for deception.  He does not say he looked for her, only that he did not see her.  


 Uh,  have you found her?

CG:  No, we, uh, we haven’t been able to find her yet.  

He offers no concern for her safety.  Even with Asperger’s there should be an element of concern, perhaps with low emotional wording.  Instead, the focus is upon “I” and he continues about himself:  


NC:  So I got to the life raft after I got my bearings and I was whistling and calling and looking around and I didn’t see her.  

Here we have deception.  He addresses the element of time, which speaks to planning: “after” he got his “bearings.”  He wants us to believe he did not have his bearings, but this is not what he said.  “After I got my bearings” presupposes the loss thereof, but this is akin to story telling, not reliving a traumatic event from experiential memory. 

“Bearings” speaks to disorientation, and its location in the account is “logical”, which, in analysis, is likely to be artificial placement of emotions for the purpose of story telling.  It takes time to process emotions and here, even with Asperger’s, it appears to be edited into his account.  

He did not look for her.  He looked “around.”  Consider also the size of the boat with this expression.  

He wishes to be seen as someone who did “search” with “whistling, calling, and looking around” specifically, but it is not accurately stated.  

This, too, suggests that he has a need to be seen in a favorable light; something associated with guilt.  


CG:  understood, ok

NC:  We were fishing around block canyon.  

CG:  And when did that happen?

NC:  I don’t have the exact coordinates.

This indicates he has the coordinates, just not the “exact” coordinates. 

CG:  (echo:  And when did that happen?) 

NC:   yes, It was a week ago today around mid day.

CG:   ok so last Sunday?

NC:   yeah.


III.          Analysis Conclusion

                               Deception Indicated

Nathan Carman is deliberately withholding information about what happened to his mother.  

He does not truthfully report events, skips over time, and shows a focus upon himself, rather than his mother.  

His wording reveals specific delay, associated with guilty knowledge, and it reveals intent.  

The form of his answer shows a lengthy introduction, statistically linked with deception.  

In order to be categorized as "deception indicated", intent must be seen.  Simply being in error, or mixed up, due to dehydration, health, trauma, etc, will not reveal "intent to deceive" in language.  In order to deceive, one must intentionally seek to mislead the interviewer/audience.  It is within this intention that we discern truth from deception.  


If Mr. Carman is offered a polygraph and the polygraph is conducted using his own language, he is not likely to pass.  

The interview strategy should consist of his own wording, and focus upon the gaps of time; not heavily upon the relationship with his mother, due to Asperger's.  He should be asked only general questions about her but if permitted opportunity to speak, will likely address her.  The interviewer must carefully listen for subtle disparagement of his mother.  This is something that guilty parties use to justify their actions.  This may even include a subtle blaming of the mother for her death.  

Nathan Carman is judicially innocent in this case, and in the unsolved murder of his grandfather.   

Several years ago, his wealthy grandmother died of cancer.  Shortly after this, his grandfather was murdered, leaving an estimated $40,000,000 to his four daughters; one of whom is Nathan's now deceased mother.  

Nathan was suspected but not charged in his grandfather's murder.  

Was this classification justified?

Did Nathan Carman commit murder against his grandfather and now his mother? 

He spoke to media about his grandfather's death; denying involvement.  

For Statement Analysis:  What is the classification of his denial?

When one speaks publicly, there is a presupposition that the audience is free to believe him, or not to believe him.   

Up next:  Did Nathan Carman reliably deny killing his grandfather?

For training in detecting deception, contact us for

                           Detecting Deception here.   

We offer training for law enforcement, human resources, journalists, social workers and all those interested in detecting deception at a high level.  

It is, for investigators, a most necessary element that saves time and procures justice, while bringing traction to the law enforcement professional's career.  

96 comments:

Chuck Lewis said...

It's great to hear your analysis on Nathan. He's murdered two people now and gotten away with it. It's sad.

Zsuzsanna said...

Sickening.

Roxanna said...

Wonderful analysis as usual!

lynda said...

I'm hoping someone with the power reads this blog and makes it happen that he is indicted for at least his mother's murder.

John mcgowan said...

OT:

Official Find Madeleine Campaign
7 hrs ·
Christmas 2016

This Christmas marks our tenth without Madeleine. There are no words really. Suffice to say, we will try and make it as happy a family occasion as possible despite being inevitably tinged with pain and longing. The year ahead too is one which we never could have believed or contemplated we would have to face.
Thank you so much to everyone who hasn’t forgotten about Madeleine, for all of your help and continued prayers. The support we continue to have from so many people, friends and strangers, will we’re sure, keep us strong and afloat during the difficult months to come.
Somebody knows. We just hope they find the courage and compassion to let us know too.
We hope your Christmas is a happy one and that 2017 brings hope, joy and peace.


Kate & Gerry

findmadeleine.com

Misha said...

John McGowan. "support we continue to have from so many people, friends and strangers, will we’re sure, keep us strong and AFLOAT during the difficult months to come." My first thought was this was a monetary reference and perhaps their funds are running low.

John mcgowan said...

Hi, Micha

That's a great observation. My thought's were leaning towards to water. Was Maddie taken out to sea.

Baby Ayla. "

Justin DiPietro " He said, "Contrary to rumors floating around out there..."

Then i got to thinking. "Afloat" is to keep ones head above water. Was she buried?

Given the context, i think your observation is more likely (Leakage)

John mcgowan said...

*Misha,

My apologies :)

Anonymous said...

“The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam,” the president said in 2012.

That will be particularly memorable to Muslims, who construe anything less than worshipful of their prophet to be a “slander.” If a Muslim knows that the President of the United States, the most powerful man in the world, believes the future “must not” – a moral imperative – belong to such people, that could easily encourage violence against those perceived as slanderous of Islam’s prophet.

Muslims are also well aware that Obama refuses to mention Islam in connection with terrorism. If Muslims know that the President of the United States, the most powerful man in the world, will hold their religion blameless, that could easily encourage violence against non-Muslims.

During the past eight years, Islamic terrorists have inflicted much violence against non-Muslims in the United States. On November 5, 2009, at Ford Hood, Texas, U.S. soldiers were getting their final medical checkups before deploying to Afghanistan. Major Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist and self-proclaimed “Solider of Allah” began gunning down the soldiers, yelling “Allahu akbar,” as he killed.

His victims, all unarmed, included Francheska Velez, a 21-year-old private from Chicago who pleaded for the life of her unborn child. The Muslim major killed two other women that day along with 10 men, more than twice as many victims as the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. Hasan also wounded 33 others, including Sergeant Alonzo Lunsford, who played dead then fled the building. Major Hasan chased down Lunsford, an African-American, and shot him seven times, including one bullet in the back.

The Obama administration proclaimed this terrorist murder spree a case of “workplace violence,” an absurdity for the ages

Anonymous said...

This is a disgraceful article full of misinformation about autism in general and Aspergers in particular.

You say that the young man demonstrated more concern for himself than for his missing mother. Well, Sir you have just described one of the main features of autism which means "self". People who are on the spectrum have big challenges with communication and in having or displaying empathy for others. That includes grief for a loved one. You also state that his words indicate deception when it is a fact that autistic people may overcome difficulties in communication via use of rote memorization of conversation. By its very nature, learned conversation is "unnatural" so there is absolutely no way you can reasonably hold this to the same standards as others in your "statement analysis".

It is also incorrect to state that childhood violence and a preoccupation with death are common features of the condition. It is true that frustration can result from difficulties with communication and that this can result in violent outbursts. But this is much less so in Aspergers which is a high functioning form of the condition. Also, a preoccupation with death is no more common than a preoccupation with Star Wars or trains or even geckos. Preoccupation with death is certainly not a standard feature of the condition.

Deception does not come easily to Aspies who can be extremely literal. Often, their tendency to state facts and insist that rules are followed to the letter can cause all manner of difficulties for their peers.

If this young man has done something bad, then rest assured it will come out via expert counselling. What he and others on the spectrum don't need is a tidal wave of finger-pointing and speculation sparked by your seriously flawed analysis. It is very dangerous to make such serious and misinformed pronouncements especially as autistic people face more than enough prejudice in their lives as it is. I hope others who work in the field will add their own comments to this post or better still that you will remove it.

Shame on you Sir.

Robert said...

Hi Peter, I wish to weigh in on this too. Aspergers is mostly diagnosed in males and it is common for them to actually verbalize suicidal ideation as early as age 7. This is where the "preoccupation with death" often begins and it can reach a zenith or critical point with the onset of adolescence.

Most experts have removed, at least in practice, Aspergers from the autism spectrum because:

Autism is too widely viewed classified. It can go from mild to non-verbal. It is still undergoing reclassification.

Aspergers, however, is much more pointed and experts frequently find 10 year old males inflicting physical pain (even death) upon pets. They report that after the assault on a pet, there is no remorse verbalized but the actions often indicate a more gentle, sensitive response. This makes it, for them, unpredictable.

My most recent client had an incident in which his parent was driving him to school when she hit a bird. The dead bird was in her car's front trunk opening and the boy refused to let her move it, blocked traffic and was late for school. She reports his fascination with death is incessant and scares his younger siblings. They had a meeting about it at school, where the guidance counselor assured them that they do have strong "eyes on" supervision with him, and have concerns about his flash of anger or rage. They monitor him carefully. I am not weighing in on the analysis part because my own work with Aspergers tells me of the capability for extreme levels of selfishness and how violence can serve this. I wanted you to hear hands on. I am not an expert but I work, 5 days a week, with Aspergers (and others), in the community, at the school, and would like to pursue my doctorate with solely Aspergers, as more schools follow the separation that professionals are doing with Aspergers away from Autism. (Autism is undergoing a rapid re-write itself). Thank you for listening. I do not use my real name here because of privacy for my clients, including , the one referenced above. Robert.

happyuk said...

"Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, were fishing at Block Canyon. And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment, I looked and saw a lot of water. I was bringing the line had my mom bring in the reel I brought up the safety stuff forward and I was bringing one of the safety bags forward the boat’s (or just) dropped out from under my feet. Uh, when I saw the life raft I did not see my mom.

Uh, have you found her?"

The beginning is clear - they were out fishing, even if the 'me and mom two people' bit reads a bit weird.

Then it all gets utterly confusing. I've read that what you choose to omit is just as important. Just as newspapers and try to influence perceptions by omitting information, so it is the case here. I've read his subsequent sentences maybe about 10 times and they still baffle me. Surely a truthful account would surely read much more like an English essay, with a coherent beginning, middle and end. He has set the scene (they were out fishing) but the reader is still left clueless as to what the consequent conditions and actions were. There is no details of any accident - she hit her head, fell in the water, whatever. No sense of any coherent sequence of events - his poor sentence structures are what really stand out for me.

Is true that Asperger's is often associated with difficult family backgrounds? With Asperger's are the cutting off of noses to spite one's face, flashes of anger for no good reason. His anxiety levels would have been through the roof much of the time. Asperger's symptoms are not symptoms of an ego out of control but of deep struggles that are virtually impossible to overcome without careful intervention and in some cases medication.

Peter Hyatt said...

Robert,

the catalog or "text" on Aspergers is overwhelming, and matches my own experience. I work with generalizations and he happened to fit "book" model Aspergers, including the high intellect. The violence/preoccupation is confirmed including one very telling report in MSM. This is why I referred to her to do some research and re think her insults.

The D/V in the household means a specific and dangerous combination: growing up in violence and having Aspergers.

I understand that violence/preoccupation with violence/death (I used one general term to cover) is not something debated (that I am aware of) but that this appears to be from a mother or close relative advocating, personally, rather than having any real interest in the literature (or even justice).

I intend to allow her to respond and if not, it will be deleted. I appreciate your response; just don't copy/paste her as this would end up in the spam folder as well. Sometimes people become offended, so every so often, a warning is added.

This blog is not to propagate ignorance. If she or anyone else wishes to challenge the analysis, it is of great benefit to us all.

But to override reason with emotion is far more popular.
Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

happy,uk

This "what happened?" is very similar to a 911 call. You are correct about its awkward flow. Having heard and read hours of the subject's own speaking only highlighted this awkwardness even more so. He communicates fluidly when the topic is not what happened to his mother.

Peter

rjb said...

The comments on this post are a lesson in how our personal experiences and biases get in the way of letting the subject guide us to the truth. It is my belief that making excuses for the language or wanting to find exceptions in it because of Mr. Carman's Aspergers is doing Mr. Carman a disservice. Whatever disorder, disease, syndrome, or condition a person may have does not preclude him from the ability or desire to deceive. Peter has demonstrated on this blog how statement analysis is accurate and reliable even when dealing with those who are extremely mentally ill. Assuming or believing that Mr. Carman defies the principles of SA simply because of his diagnosis is condescending to Mr. Carman.

Peter Hyatt said...

Yes, "James S", you do use your full name when you call down "shame" on someone.

The assumption of female is within the language.

Anonymous said...



hippie gyspie they are not talking about you. this is not about you it is about the boater.

Anonymous said...

People with aspergers have attendant psychopathy which means they have a total lack of empathy for others. They can be very much more dangerous than psychopaths since they dont seem to understand how humans relate and have no positive human emotions like joy or happiness. . Jeffrey Dahmer had aspergers and in some sense, thought he was forming friendships with his victims?!?! I have a family member who I believe has aspergers, who grew up long before the label existed and this individual's behavior was profoundly psychopathic and disturbing, and the individual is a very skilled liar. This individual should actually be in jail imo because they are extremely calculating and dangerous but these people are extremely calculating so are never caught.

Anonymous said...

Casey Anthony also scored high on a psych eval for having asperger traits.

Peter Hyatt said...

rjb,

if overwhelming book is compared to my personal experience, I go with the book and here is why:

we do not establish principle upon exceptions, even if it is personal to me.

That Aspergers and preoccupation with death/violence, etc is evident is not something I could find a debate

The anonymous poster wants "shame" called down, and offered no rebuttal nor even questioning of the analysis...just the emotional "shame" and was given the opportunity to state what it was in the analysis that she disagreed with and chose not to.

Hence, delete.

There are places she can go to insult and be cheered. (including fake 'support' posts) This is not one of them. This is for critical thinking and analysis.

I appreciate your post.

Peter

Anonymous said...

I also think many psychologists and people misdiagnose others or themselves with aspergers based on ridiculous things...Ive had a friend who was diagnosed with aspergers based on the fact she had become nasty and self-centered and had had normal focused areas of interest as a kid like being interested in kings and queens?! No, thats bull...all kids have areas have interest as well as this individual has a normal range of human emotion including laughter joy happiness as well as some empathy.
But people who do truly have it have zero empathy which is very disturbing. It's very tragic when these people procreate and subject their children to their monstrous personalities. If someone has ZERO empathy they should understand they should not be subjecting children to that, the damage they do is phenomenal, and they dont care. Picture a robot with zero empathy.

Anonymous said...

I honestly have no problem if asperger people were forcibly sterilized. An animal has much more compassion and nurturing skills than they do and is less dangerous.

Anonymous said...

how would james feel if you wrote on his personal blog a insult? these people have so little respect for others what an ass. i don't get it. i though ti was only the davey blackburn and madeline mccann case that brought out the nut jobs lefty loons

Anonymous said...

Ive seen blogs online where "aspies" (some of them Im sure misdiagnosed) talking about what awesome parents they are. Really?! You people have zero empathy and are totally psycho, just the thing children thrive with.. Ask your kids what kind of parent you were--your kids will tell you they were in hell.

Anonymous said...

There are those with Aspergers who are preoccupied with death but do not always act out violently. It is during the teenaged years and early 20's that can be really scary. Although a 6 year old killing bugs can be a bit unnerving, what about the same intensity for killing at age 19?


Peter do you think he will be charged?


Anonymous said...

You know what anon? Many aspies are misdiagnosed, many self-diagnosed over the internet. PEOPLE WHO TRULY HAVE ASPERGERS HAVE NO EMPATHY. DO YOU THINK A CHILD SHOULD BE RAISED BY SOMEONE WITH NO EMPATHY? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IMPLIES? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BEHAVIOR THESE PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF? You really dont know. Nevermind the fact aspies are highly intelligent in a calculating way, much more intelligent than you or I in that respect. Their intelligence is not creative or empathic. It is completely cerebral and calculating.

Anonymous said...

Peter is correct--aspergers people are obsessed with violence and death--I think it is because they are sick in the head from their "disorder"....

Anonymous said...

If an asperger person were to drive by a car wreck with dead people lying on the road bleeding they would think it was cool...they would not have an ounce of empathy. They would find it awesome. These people are very sick in the head, and the blogs they create talking about what great parents they are are ahocking in how delusional they are.

Anonymous said...

Ive seen a 10 year old male with aspergers (supposedly accidentally) end up shoot another kid in the eyeball with a nerf pellet--the kid whose eye got hit was distressed and his eyeball turned red. This would elicit concern from most human beings that they had hit someone's eyeball--this would instinctively cause concern in most people like "oh no, thats his eye! Thats what he SEES out of." This kid had no reaction but he said about 10 minutes later when the kid's parents were on their way to take him to a doctor "Oh he'll be fine. I do much worse stuff to my brother and he's fine."

Peter Hyatt said...

Obsession with death, violence, suicide does not always lead to violence.

please be temperate with commenting.

As to charges...

yes, I think he will eventually face justice.

I also think the truth about Amanda Blackburn's murder will come out, too, but it can be years.

In the Carman case, there is no body and no boat. Nathan made very certain of this. There is more to this, but the challenge remains for prosecution.

Peter

Anonymous said...

Yes, I agree, obssession with violence, death etc may not lead to violent action, but it's a very dangerous and volatile combination...specifically the combo of no empathy combined with obsession with violence/death. If these people procreate, protective visitors should come to the house on a daily basis, because these people need to be monitored extremely closely for how they are treating their children. Unfortunately, it's the children of these people who end up being the experimental lab rats as far as will these emotionless, conscienceless people fixated with violence act out or not? Imagine the boat guy with kids! Very scary! My opinion may be extreme but is balanced out well by the vast literature on the internet glamorizing aspergers and its attendant sociopathy as well as asperger parenting.

Anonymous said...

And even if the aspie parent does not act out violently, he or she will show no empathy to their children which is profoundly damaging. When little Johnny falls off his bike, aspie parent will regard this with no emotion and will not comfort little Johnny. Aspie parent will also do this with emotional injuries the child receives, if little Johnny is being bullied there will be no emotion from aspie parent. Multiply that by 1 million to understand what these children go through with all the incidents of lack of empathy from the parent. It is no wonder either that there are so many sites with aspies bragging about their "parenting" because that is how ridiculous they are, totally self-involved. I would be curious if there is a single child of a true aspie testifying to the good parenting of the aspies. Who even knows if it is a form of autism? The 2 disorders seem vastly different--in autism the person is out of touch with reality, literally in their own world and unable to connect or interact with the world around them. In aspergers, that is not the case, they are involved in reality and things around them except in a sociopathic way. My only point, how is it really autism?

Anonymous said...

People who are autistic are not sociopaths...they mean noone any harm...I have met people with severe autism and they are literally locked in their own "world" and cannot interact normally in any way with things outside themselves. There is no lack of empathy with autistics, there cannot be, because they are trapped in themselves and cannot relate to the outside world.

Aspergers, in my opinion, may actually be a more severe form of sociopathy involving nothing autistic. If you look at a sociopath like Ted Bundy, the only difference between him and Jeffrey Dahmer (who supposedly had "aspergers") is the fact that Bundy did have some slight conscience in my opinion...if you look at his words in his prison interviews, he has a need to distance himself from what he did and will only speak of his crimes under the terms of "the person who did it" (and this is after he was convicted and sentenced to death penalty so it was not done to avoid consequences)...he explains how the "person who did it" went through a process of objectifying the victims and very intelligently (and sincerely) talks about the way in which "the person who did it" came to view his victims in an objectified way. It is evident there is some slight remnant of a conscience with Bundy. With someone like Dahmer, there's just no conscience whatsoever. He didn't need to objectify his victims, because he just had NO CONSCIENCE or empathy whatsoever. I just don't even believe aspergers is a form of autism...if anything it is sociopathy on the extreme end of the spectrum.

Anonymous said...

And it is very unfair in my opinion that psychologists diagnose people who may be very intelligent in technical ways and be shy and have poor social skills as having aspergers. Or people on the internet who write that their child has aspergers but he or she is very sweet and concerned about people's feelings...OK well none of those people actually have aspergers then!!!! They may be shy or awkward or even speak a little differently...aspergers involves by it's very definition, extreme sociopathy. And it really should be changed in the DSM to fall under the category of sociopathy NOT autism, NOT being a nerd, NOT being intelligent but shy and awkward.

Peter Hyatt said...

I have some sad news for you..

naturally shyness is about to become diagnosed and drugged...DSM and big drug company meet.

stay tuned.

Peter

John Jasper said...

This could be a rare moment of honesty from Obama! Despite the never-ending propaganda fed to Western populations, Obama should know that "Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism" is a Western invention used to achieve geopolitical ends where conventional armies dare not tread. The so-called Muslim jihadists have significant trouble locating Mecca and no love for Muslims, Islamic heritage or anything other than murder and destruction.

The real Muslims that they kill indiscriminately (along with Christians, etc) recognise them as scum who are nothing more than criminals under pay and protection of NATO countries.

Anonymous said...

well said John J!

The future must not belong to those who slander the pedophile, I mean, prophet, Mohammad

John Jasper said...

With so many anonymous comments, it's difficult to follow who's saying what but... it seems that this one commenter has an unhealthy obsession with trolling this website. Please assist those of us with a real desire to learn and a valid interest in this subject and disappear to your safe space. If that's too much to ask, try taking your meds regularly and if that doesn't work, please create a user account and post under that name so I don't waste time reading your drivel.

Anonymous said...

Peter, That is shocking if they begin medicating people for shyness--it seems everything is pathologized these days!

happyuk said...

(Apologies for the off topic). I would have thought Kate McCann's book "Madeline" would be a veritable goldmine of information for analysis. The Richard D Hall interview where the subject of possible sexual abuse for raised will be profoundly shocking to a lot of British people raised on a diet of "reality" TV and conventional "news". It certainly was for me - even though I had long suspected their accounts of what happened were amiss, the sexual aspect of it remained beyond my ken. Many will be open minded to this new information, despite it being shocking and unpalatable; however many I think will still suffer the same psychological denial people often get when confronted with something that is too painful for them to face up to.

This phrase from the book particularly stands out, an embedded confession:

“I was feeling a macabre slideshow of vivid pictures in my brain that taunted me relentlessly”.
“I was crying out that I could see Madeleine lying cold and mottled, on a big grey stone slab.”

“I asked Gerry apprehensively if he’d had any really horrible thoughts or visions of Madeleine. He nodded. Haltingly, I told him about the awful pictures that scrolled through my head of her perfect little genitals torn apart“

According to "Ask Betty" the college writing site, the past tense is used to "indicate past events, prior conditions, or completed processes";

Kate is telling us she has seen the "mottled" skin of Madeline, which has naturally started to decay.

She is "apprehensive" and "halting" about asking and telling Gerry what are perfectly reasonable things, given the circumstances. Why the element of fear in all this - supports the hypothesis of an abusive relationship perhaps - no actual physical threat, just the mental thought of Gerry waving the big stick. Also note his non-verbal response - passive aggressive non-communication. "perfect little genitals torn apart" - this statement throws me completely.

I am struggling to interpret the metaphor of "slideshow", "scrolling pictures" she uses - is this some kind of distancing language whereby real events are reduced/belittled to a kind of PowerPoint presentation perhaps.

happyuk said...


I believe in that statement Kate McCann is expressing her fear of Madeline being found and ending up on the mortuary slab and the post mortem / toxicology report revealing what actually happened to little Madeline - that it what is really eating away at her. Again, not an ounce of concern expressed in Madeline's safe return as she has already indicated verbally that she is not coming back.

Anonymous said...

Happy UK, Yes Kate is leaking what she has seen. Unfortunately the language surrounding the case, specifically from Dr Payne, tells us what happened. Payne and Jerry attacked her, and Payne leaks out specifically with what in my opinion, but is too nauseating to discuss. (Im not able to discuss what I see in Paynes language).

Anonymous said...

And yes she may hsve fallen accidentally post-attack.

Emilia said...

Brilliant analysis! It is very odd how he says "two people". Perhaps, like you said, he is concerned about a potential eyewitness.

Would the sensitivity be surrounding the number itself? Do we need to look at it and question 'could it have been 3 people, or even could it have been one person?' Your analysis was incredibly insightful and caused me to think further about the number issue. Is there a possibility she was killed by him before he got on the boat and then her body discarded by him from the boat? He says "two people"....could the sensitivity point to there only having been one live person and one dead person on the boat at the time he is referring to?

That was really insightful how you identified that the "funny noise" probably was her drowning...I would not have made that connection. But once I did after reading your analysis, I wonder, could it have been the sound of him discarding her body into water?

Anonymous said...

Nathan said:

"I brought the safety stuff forward and I was bringing one of the safety bags forward the boat just dropped out from under my feet"

It sounds like he had her weighted down with cement bags and then tossed her overboard.

Anonymous said...

Nathan does not report a single action, vocalization, movement done by the mother. Kinda seems like she was already dead when she went in the water.

tania cadogan said...

Off topic

A Pennsylvania woman has been identified as a person of interest in the disappearance and murder of her 14-year-old daughter after authorities reported finding the girl’s dismembered remains, according to a report.

Fox 29 Philadelphia reported Thursday that Grace Packer was reported missing from her home on July 11. At the time police said she left her home with $300 in cash in her pocket.

County prosecutors said Grace’s dismembered body was found in remote woods on Halloween by two hunters.

“How did this young girl disappear from her home in Abington Township and end up in a remote area of Luzerne County?” Montgomery County prosecutor Kevin Steele asked.

Bucks County prosecutor Matthew Weintraub said Sara Packer, 41, is a person of interest in the investigation. Police said she was the person who reported her daughter missing.

Packer was charged last month with child endangerment and obstructing the administration of law in connection with the disappearnce, Fox 29 reported. She is behind bars in lieu of a $10,000 bail. She has not been charged in her daughter’s murder.

Authorities say Packer knows more about what happened to her daughter than she has divulged, according to the station. She has been accused by authorities of hindering efforts to find Grace by withholding information, lying to detectives and keeping secret a move to another town.

The station also reports that Packer pocketed $3,600 in disability benefits for her daughter after the disappearance.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/23/missing-teens-dismembered-remains-found-mom-charged-in-disappearance.html

Anonymous said...

Nathan knows he hurt his Mom. He gets it. He is not stupid. He doesn't care. I actually think that is much more accurate in describing aspies...they have "empathy" just don't give a shit.

Hey Jude said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Nathan is innocent because i am the mother of a 14 year old aspergers i got him diagnosed to cover up for my failures it worked

Hey Jude said...

Removed the transcript link I posted earlier as it's such a sensitive case - I hope anyone who might want and be able to analyse it, saved it, even if any analysis is not shared - strange case, poor interview, IMO.

Anonymous said...

I'm having a rough time with some of these descritions of aspergers... My daughter was DX with it in middle sachool,( over 10 years ago) and has always shown appropiate empathy. She does however PROCESS slower, which would mean it can take her a few minutes to show the proper response.

Peter Hyatt said...

Anonymous said...
I'm having a rough time with some of these descritions of aspergers... My daughter was DX with it in middle sachool,( over 10 years ago) and has always shown appropiate empathy. She does however PROCESS slower, which would mean it can take her a few minutes to show the proper response.


You should question the diagnosis.

Behind diagnoses is money. Always beware.

The recent diagnosing of normal, healthy two year olds for "autism" has become a joke.

With the actual diagnosing of two year olds, you can count on this:

Most all of our future male engineers will be diagnosed at age two with autism that is "on the spectrum."
This will lead to "recommendations" for services.

I feel sorrow for the parents that are prey to this. They love their children desperately and are vulnerable to the suggestions which come, by the way, with this:

"if you really loved your child, you would enroll, but it is not necessary...."

The deception in this element, alone, is overwhelming. These parents need intervention; not the children.

Autism diagnosis is spreading tremendously.

Can anyone explain the sudden "epidemic" of parents of young children who are now cross dressing them?

Limit this to just 2015-2106 to get a sharper view of this acute abuse of children.

Anyone contemplating a career where communication is used, contemplate formal training in discerning lies.

Peter

Anonymous said...

Peter wrote: Can anyone explain the sudden "epidemic" of parents of young children who are now cross dressing them?

I saw a thing on fb with a zillion likes about a 5 year old boy whose parents had him speak to a crowd about being a "transgendered" kid.
These parents are perverted narcissists. I was a complete tomboy when I was a kid, cause I had a lot of energy, wanted to run around, climb trees, play sports, and now will not even leave the house without wearing a dress or skirt and I enjoy nice clothes and dressing femininely.
These parents just want attention in fb. I also think its disturbing when mothers dress their daughters in cheerleading outfits etc, or dressed in high-heeled boots, tight clothes etc things that are not appropriate for a 7, 8, 9 year old and put pictures of that on fb?!?! Honestly my father would have gone through the roof if someone ever dressed me like that as a child!
If I had a daughter I would go through the roof if someone dressed my dauggter like that! These people are exploiting their own kids in my opinion!!!!! I think its horrible!

Anonymous said...

It is just very weird to see mothers doing that to their daughters. My father had an Irish temper, you would have heard him screaming a mile away if someone ever dressed me like that as a little kid!!!! He would have gond through the roof! Literally!!!

Anonymous said...

And these mothers take pictures of their little daughters dressed like that and put them up on fb and the daughters often seem to be posing like they are models or cheerleader?!?! It has to be the parent telling them to do that?!?! To try to get likes on fb?!?! I am just being honest when I saw if someone ever dressed me like that and had me pose like a cheerleader when Im like 7, my father would have punched that person in the face!!!!!!! So I dont get it!!!!!

rjb said...

Simply put, we live in an age and a society where being "open-minded" and "progressive" is considered the apex of the human condition. Looking logically and dispassionately at how little thinking this "open-mindedness" requires or daring to ask the question, "Progressing towards what?" gets labeled as hatred, racism, whatever-phobic, because it is far easier to shut down an opposing viewpoint by calling names which eliminate the potential for radical discourse than it is to actually engage in enough open-mindedness that one may risk having one's mind changed.

rjb said...

Should be "reasonable discourse," not "radical discourse."

Peter Hyatt said...

interestingly enough, Narcissists often have preoccupation with...

narcissism.


Long term readers know that I love the music of Bruce Springsteen.

He is a self disclosed narcissist and his language shows he was a victim of acute sexual abuse early in in life from his grandmother. His working class tough guy image is just that; a complete "show" and nothing like reality.

His autobiography is about his narcissism and he is narcissistic, deceptive when it serves his purpose, and it is fascinating to see how talent often emerges from trauma as well as a good reminder that those who pretend to be what they are not, may not always be the best role models in society. It makes sense why other cultures of years past did not hold entertainers in such extreme high esteem.

For those of you interested in analysis, his autobiography is interesting reading. He is a fake as his midwestern accent when he speaks slowly (it disappears when he speaks at normal pace) and although we are supposed to see his father as the villain, some of you may see it otherwise.

Regardless, it gives great insight into the world of a narcissist, howebeit multi millionaire and talented. That narcissists have preoccupation with narcissism itself, constantly "seeing" it in all others, is really insightful.

I still enjoy his music!

I will be addressing NPD more in both articles and lessons in 2017.

Peter

Anonymous said...

most of the time...

comments here are fresh air...due to logic and critical thinking.

Concerned said...

Peter,
I just started Bruce's autobiography last night and, after half a dozen chapters, am quite surprised.
It doesn't come across as a narrative written by him and I wonder if there was not a ghost writer.

Anonymous said...

I hope it's OK that I perceived someone having a 5 year old dressed as a girl and being a "transgender" spokesperson and putting it on fb to get likes and comments as narcissistic. In my opinion, exploiting a child for attention qualifies as narcissistic. If there is a better word to describe it, it doesnt come to mind.

Anonymous said...

Exploitative doesnt fully describe it, because they are exploiting the child for attention--this is inherent in their action of having the 5 year old dressed as a girl and speaking in front of a crowd and then putting it up on fb so it can go viral amd be seen by tens of thousands of other people. That is certainly an act of narcissism.

Hippie Gypsy said...

I was giving insight into Aspergers

Nic said...

Uh, when I saw the life raft I did not see my mom. Uh, have you found her?
CG: “No, we, uh, we haven’t been able to find her yet.
NC: So I got to the life raft after I got my bearings and I was whistling and calling and looking around and I didn’t see her.
CG: understood, ok


"so" blue highlight/sensitive
he didn't see his mom x 2, a need to persuade

So I got to the life raft after I got my bearings/ I don’t have the exact coordinates.

bearing (navigation)
(B) the direction of a distant object relative to the current course (or the "change" in course that would be needed to get to that distant object)

The use of bearings, especially the use of the term "bearings" in context to being on a boat/raft, and the negation around having the exact coordinates sounds like there was premeditation to what happened to his mom.

jmo


Nic said...

@ john mcgowan
. The year ahead too is one which we never could have believed or contemplated we would have to face.
Thank you so much to everyone who hasn’t forgotten about Madeleine, for all of your help and continued prayers. The support we continue to have from so many people, friends and strangers, will we’re sure, keep us strong and afloat during the difficult months to come.

Only "the year", not "the years" (past and future?)

They have been force to face many years without Madeleine. What's so special about this specific year ahead they "never" could have believed or contemplated they would "have" to face? In the context of the "Find Madeleine" campaign (money) what did they not anticipate?

Thanks to happyuk's update, I can guess.

Nic said...

Peter said,
In the Carman case, there is no body and no boat.


IMO, that's because he sunk them. IMO, she was tied to the boat.

"the line had my mom bringing in the reel"

IMO, the line was wrapped around her and she was tied to the sinking boat.

_________

"at" Block Canyon changes to "around" Block Canyon.

Block Canyon is sensitive, but I don't believe that is where either the boat or his mom will be found as he needs to persuade that is where they were fishing.

Is the water clear? Maybe an arial view or sonar could reveal a sunken vessel.


jmo

Foolsfeedonfolly said...


RE: Peter Hyatt @3:40 PM December 24, 2106

"Peter Hyatt said...

interestingly enough, Narcissists often have preoccupation with...

narcissism.

"That narcissists have preoccupation with narcissism itself, constantly "seeing" it in all others, is really insightful."
____________________________________________________
Peter- I read this and though "This is so true!". We have both a narcissistic extended family member and a narcissistic former friend. Our family has seen this play out in both people's conversations (and the former friend's Instagram, Pinterest & Twitter accounts). When the family member isn't promoting herself, she's talking contemptuously about how others are "promoting" themselves or she's not-so-subtly pointing out their failures and flaws. She loves to dish about their hard times, under the guise of "keeping everyone updated". She cannot stand it when anyone else gets attention- at Thanksgiving she called two family members loudmouths- they were conversing with one another instead of listening exclusively to her. Other family members were then called Yackity-yaks because they were visiting together before the meal.

The former friend's Pinterest pins and Twitter tweets are full of quotes, announcing how special her personality type is/how women deserve the princess treatment/how narcissistic her mother is...and full of condemnation for anyone besides herself or her children that may be getting attention, winning awards, or being honored in any way. The hypocrisy is stunning and laughable. Nearly 50-years old, she took to Twitter to flame the young lady who won the lead in the school musical (her daughter didn't get the part). She went on to publicly insult the drama teacher and his spouse, and discourage people from attending. The scary part? She has a Psychology degree from a well-known university. She's molded and shaped her daughter in her own image (literally the teen daughter participates in every activity, in the same capacity, as her mother did in high school). I feel sorry for the daughter's teachers and classmates. I hope the daughter gets some good, solid professional counseling- her value is tied to her performance and she knows it. We tolerated the friend for years for her husband's sake, until we realized just how toxic she was and how henpecked he is.

We've developed some handling strategies for the extended family member and we're enforcing boundaries (name-calling/insults= an immediate "Well, it's time for us to go."). Narcissists need an audience...no audience means no performance. When the conversation clearly becomes all about her, we immediately begin diverting the conversation ("Hey have you heard about/ Did you know that/I read the other day that __________ [new product on the market, fascinating new discovery, new TV show, feel-good news story, etc.]?"). Each time she tries to hijack the conversation again, we respond by diverting.

Anonymous said...

Fools, Just interested in why, if you find someone so intolerable, you follow their Pinterest, Twitter and Instagram account?

With the narcissistic family member, you say the whole family passive-aggressively makes sure the family member never talks about herself?
I would just not invite even invite someone to dinner who I disliked that much.

Anonymous said...

Just sayin'. Because the older I get the more I only spend time around people I actually enjoy being around and I have cut a lot of toxic family members out of my life, bc it's not enjoyable for me to use any "tactics" to handle being around them--I would just assume not be around them.

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Anonymous @ 11:14pm- Your post was rife with assumptions and seemed somewhat snarky.

As far as the former friend goes, I'm not on Twitter, Pinterest, or Facebook. I don't follow anyone, nor did I say that I did. Her husband is an old family friend and her father-in-law is in poor health. We also know her extended family on both sides and in our small town, we (or our extended family members) run into them from time to time. I prefer to confirm things for myself, rather than believe everything I'm told (particularly when there's a family history of division and strife).

Secondly, I did not say that "our whole family passive-aggressively makes sure our family member never talks about herself", as you assumed. I said that when she begins monopolizing conversations (plural), to the point of excluding others, we will introduce a diversionary topic at the first small break. Contrary to your assumption, we love her enough to find out her backstory and why she craves attention...which we're happy to give her in more healthy ways. Demanding attention and demeaning others is her family's dynamic- one we prefer neither to reinforce, pass on, nor be abused by.

Thirdly, we're the ones primarily being invited- although we do occasionally do the inviting. We love her and we're not without faults either...it's called acceptance. When she's not feeling the need to prove herself worthy of attention, she's nice and enjoyable to be around.

Finally, my post was specifically in reference to Peter's comments about narcissists "seeing" narcissism in everyone else, the irony of it.

Gracie said...

As an Aspie with two spectrum children, I find the misconceptions about Asperger's that have been written here disconcerting. I would invite anyone with questions to research for themselves the correlation between spectrum disorders and violence (there isn't one).

I have read this blog for years, and have wondered how someone with ASD would fare under examination, considering our penchant for speaking in a stilted manner. I'm still curious about this.

Right before Nathan's grandfather was killed, he was in a screaming match with his daughter (Nathan's mother) in a hospital waiting room. She physically attacked this old man, after he threatened to withdraw monetary support if she intervened with Nathan's treatment.

Nathan was best friends with his grandfather. They did everything together, and Nathan looked up to him.

My feeling is that Nathan found out that his mother killed his grandfather, and he decided to correct the problem himself.

I would be interested to see him take a polygraph. People on the spectrum don't typically have guilt or remorse, and while we do not typically lie, I suspect he would be quite capable of it without a machine detecting any change in his physical being.

I think, unfortunately, Nathan will get away with murder, because there is no evidence of his crime, and he has no one to confide in, or really a need to do so.

This is an interesting read, as always.

Anonymous said...

You wrote " As far as the former friend goes, I'm not on Twitter, Pinterest, or Facebook. I don't follow anyone, nor did I say that I did"

Oh OK, well you gave a detailed point by point description of what you have seen on the former friend's instagram and pinterest (?). My point is why do you look in detail at someone's accounts who you find to be intolerable? Yet, you say you dont after you say you do? Just saying it might be healthier not to even look if it just upsets you bc the person is a jerk.
My post wasnt meant to be snarky...more just sharing my own experience that if someone is truly toxic it's best not to be around them...I have a large family in which certain people are very nasty and others triangulate, backtalk, gossip against the nastier ones...I just stay away from MOST of them bc I dont want to be sucked into ANY of it....not saying that is the route everyone should take...but it is how I deal...what these people dont understand is that if it is person A and B gossipping and complaiming about person C, person B think person A is really great...person A understands how awful person C is ...yet person C used to be best buddies with person A and knew person A was a scumbag...person B will be disillusioned when they realize A is as bad as C...point is I dont do complicated stuff, thats just me...if someone is invited into my house it means I like them and when they leave I wont be talking smack about them. If I dont like someone I dont invite them over. This keeps me from ever having to be around people I dont like or having to talk about them in any depth or team up with others to try to deal with them. Only because it hurts me in the end and I myself just choose to detach from truly toxic people and I also dont like hearing about them from other family members who complain bc I just think to myself "well, you knew that person was a scumbag..."

Anonymous said...

As far as when family members try to gossip about Scumbag A or Scumbag B is doing this or that crazy thing, I dont want to hear many details...I just say "Oh wow." It usually steers the convo in diff direction. I feel like "Why are you telling me this when I stopped talking to that person yrs ago?" Did you not realize the first 500 times you heard about this person being malicious that this person is malicious. But they dont want to get it, they dont want to detach, they would rather triangulate, gossip...I dont get involved in that bc the person is outof my life for a reason. I just say "Oh wow, interesting." It takes a lot of pain to get to the point where you only let decent people in and keep the rest out. Its not the route for everyone to take. But it works for me.

Anonymous said...

Gracie, That is interesting hearing your take on things since you yourself have Aspergers. Im curious, is it an ego-dystonic phenomenon for aspies that they lack a conscience (you stated they feel no guilt or remorse)? This shows that aspies are aware they lack a conscience...my question is does it upset them that they lack a conscience? Or are they OK with it? My experience has been they do not seem upset by it. Yet I am not inside their head to know.

Anonymous said...

asperger/straight_talk_about_asperger.html

The link above is great. It talks about all the misconceptions: aspergers is not autism...it is a developmental disorder and may soon be moved into the Cluster A personality disorder category of schizophrenia, schizotypal, etc. IT BELONGS THERE.
The link also notes the actual traits Hans Asperger actually noted in aspies and many are very disturbing and far from the gentle, awkward aspie you read about on the internet.

Anonymous said...

And I dont care who it offends..."aspies" should not be unsupervised around children. True "aspies" are not the nerdy engineer too shy to talk. These people have profoundly disturbing characteristics. Stephen King could base a character on one of these people...he could not even dream up that stuff...and they are more than intelligent enough to hide the shit they do.

Anonymous said...

Here is the beginning of the link I posted above. Note how the author says that people do not want to acknowledge known facts about the disorder that they dont want to believe (in my opinion bc it doesnt fit with the "sweet awakward nerd" picture that doesnt match up with reality whatsoever: In the authors words:
"Asperger syndrome, officially called Asperger's disorder in the diagnostic manual, has become a more or less popular diagnosis in the late twentieth century. As result there has been much writing and talk about it, and a relatively wide audience is now aware of the condition and some facts and notions related to it. Not all of these notions are true, while some known facts remain unmentioned; publicity around Asperger syndrome suffers to some extent from the phenomenon of believing what one likes to believe and ignoring what one does not like to know. I will try to set a few things straight. It is assumed in this article that the reader already knows what Asperger syndrome is."

Anonymous said...

Here he mentions his belief that aspergers differs drastically from autism and one need only look at the characteristics observed by Hans Asperger in "aspies" to understand why

Personally I think Asperger and autism should not be treated as the same disorder and do deserve separate diagnoses. I have heard that some psychiatrists, who believe Asperger and autism are the same, more or less boycott the current diagnostic criteria and simply give everyone "autism". This is bad because it makes research into the possible differences a priori impossible. It would be better to revise the Asperger criteria and make them more different from those for Autistic Disorder, for instance by including the less popular negative features that are missing from the current image of Asperger, but have been observed by Hans Asperger in his original study and are known from forensic psychiatry. These include motor clumsiness, insensitivity to another's feelings, destructiveness, aggression, endlessly bottled-up anger, violent outbursts, and grim sadism. Some of these set Asperger apart from classical autism, and failing to include them in the criteria makes it appear as if Asperger and autism are really the same.

Personally I think Asperger and autism should not be treated as the same disorder and do deserve separate diagnoses. I have heard that some psychiatrists, who believe Asperger and autism are the same, more or less boycott the current diagnostic criteria and simply give everyone "autism". This is bad because it makes research into the possible differences a priori impossible. It would be better to revise the Asperger criteria and make them more different from those for Autistic Disorder, for instance by including the less popular negative features that are missing from the current image of Asperger, but have been observed by Hans Asperger in his original study and are known from forensic psychiatry. These include motor clumsiness, insensitivity to another's feelings, destructiveness, aggression, endlessly bottled-up anger, violent outbursts, and grim sadism. Some of these set Asperger apart from classical autism, and failing to include them in the criteria makes it appear as if Asperger and autism are really the same.

Personally I think Asperger and autism should not be treated as the same disorder and do deserve separate diagnoses. I have heard that some psychiatrists, who believe Asperger and autism are the same, more or less boycott the current diagnostic criteria and simply give everyone "autism". This is bad because it makes research into the possible differences a priori impossible. It would be better to revise the Asperger criteria and make them more different from those for Autistic Disorder, for instance by including the less popular negative features that are missing from the current image of Asperger, but have been observed by Hans Asperger in his original study and are known from forensic psychiatry. These include motor clumsiness, insensitivity to another's feelings, destructiveness, aggression, endlessly bottled-up anger, violent outbursts, and grim sadism. Some of these set Asperger apart from classical autism, and failing to include them in the criteria makes it appear as if Asperger and autism are really the same.

Anonymous said...

I disagree with the last part of the link however...they lie very well, and they actually take satisfaction in their ability to deceive. They also should not be allowed to be unsupervised around children, as their psychosis mixed with their other traits noted by asperger creates a very bad combo. I do not believe teasing or bullying creates the sadism of the asperger patient either...the writer making that type of excuse for them shows an ignorance of the profound ways the complex weave of psychological handicaps these people have could effect their ability to develop a healthy psyche. He attributes simple explanations for a very complicated issue.

Anonymous said...

I just read this, and it is, in my opinion, possibly the most disturbing aspect about aspergers--the fact they have trouble "distinguishing people from objects." I dont know how someone can possibly underestimate how serious of an impairment that is! As well as they have trouble understanding that other people even have THOUGHTS, nevermind FEELINGS.

This writer writes of Jeffrey Dahmer, who had aspergers "Dahmer's treatment of his victims, they say, is consistent with the fact that individuals with AD have trouble both in "theory of mind" (the understanding that other people have thoughts and feelings) and in distinguishing between people and objects."

Personally, I have to step back from the topic of aspergers. There is little I can find to read that seems to understand the route of asperger violence which is they are twisted people and they HAVE TROUBLE TELLING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PEOPLE AND OBJECTS. I find this VERY disturbing!

Anonymous said...

It HAS to be that people with aspergers are developmentally stuck in many ways in a very early infantile state of object relations like maybe the first month of life if they cant distinguish between people and objects. Thats my theory! Otherwise how can it possibly be explained? I find it to be very disturbing to think about. There are adults who cant distinguish between people and objects.

Peter Hyatt said...

Sometimes kids with mild autism are labeled or misdiagnosed "Aspergers."

Regardless of what anyone says, in practice, social service organizations take safety precautions with Asperger males, particularly age 10 and up, for their safety and their clients' safety.

Please keep in mind that the "literature" is heavily influenced by politicians, or "political correctness" along with the pharmaceutical companies peddling the latest drugs.

The poor direct service providers, woefully underpaid, deal with the violence or threat of violence every day. Even when the actor does not appear "angry" or "malicious", the 'deception' becomes evident: the worker "never saw it coming."

Those who work one on one with Aspergers understand. That there are non violent Aspergers is irrelevant to the analysis.

Nathan Carman has a history of violence, which include intimidation.

We have a very public example of domestic violence by his mother against his grandfather, to the point where police were called. This is insight into his home life, where he was raised in great wealth, meaning...you get what you want:

this is a terrible combination alone, without Aspergers.

You can always find someone with the diagnosis who is non violent or has no preoccupation with death. Its a good thing! But it is not relevant to the analysis.

Nathan Carman shows guilty knowledge of his mother's death.
Nathan Carman gives linguistic indication of guilt regarding his grandfather's murder.
Nathan Carman has a history of frightening and intimidating others.

If you find someone with Aspergers who has no preoccupation with death, it will not change the case of Nathan Carman.

In training, students are taught to not interject their own "but me" into analysis.

This is a good example why this is taught.

Peter

Nic said...

I'm getting caught up on this case. Reading here:
http://heavy.com/news/2016/09/nathan-carman-rhode-island-vermont-boston-new-york-murder-suspect-linda-carman-missing-boat-john-chakalos-connecticut-millionaire-estate/

I came across this comment from a local (by pictures alone, I agree he looked pretty good for being "lost" at sea for 8 days):

Thanks for the recap Jennifer. Diana, I agree with your thoughts as well. I live in Narragansett and have fished Block Island waters commercially and recreationally for most of my life. My take is this is all a part of a well thought out plan. Here is why. We know through local sources that Nathan topped off the boat fuel. Estimated boat range from those that know the boat is 600 miles.He also bought Ballyhoo (a bait used for fishing tuna in the canyons) and eels (used for fishing for stripers off of Block Island)Covering all bases here. Mom's e-mail said they were headed for Striper Rock Southeast of the windmills.This location does not exist and I have never known anyone to target stipers in that area. Linda's e-mail to her best friend at 11am stated that she was nervous and expected to return to the dock at 9am sunday. That is good timing for a fishing trip to Block Isalnd but Block canyon is a good 6 hour trip one way in conditions better then they were facing. Some wittnesses stated that they did not see fishing gear on the boat but that could have been stored down below. Now witnesses also say that Nathan had removed the trim tabs (stabilizers) on the boat and sealed up the holes with silicone. Why? Peeling the silicon away would be a very convenient way to sink the boat. Previous pictures of the boat do not show a life raft but current ones do. Why did they never find Nathan and why in such good condition after 8 days in a raft? I would expect with his range he traveled farther south to avoid the search, then east where he sunk the boat and went adrift well provisioned with food and water. Furthurmore most boats going that far and equipped with a life raft will have an Epirb device that is automatically triggered when submerged and sends a location signal to the coast guard. And if there was no Epirb on board almost all ship to shore radios (your most basic piece of electronic equipment) manufactured in the last 10 years have a simple distress button to push that sends a signal to the coast guard of your latitude and longitude. If there is no time to call...always time to push that button unless you are swamped by big seas and there were none. There is much more to add but rambling as it is. Bottom line from someone who has fished these waters for 50 years none of this adds up.

Nic said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nic said...

“I got to the life raft after I got my bearings, and I was whistling and calling and looking around, and I didn’t see her.”

The thing about this statement that bothers me is that the whistle is usually blown by the one needing help. Really good life jackets have a whistle on them. Nautical emergency kits have a whistle in them. If you're conscious you blow them instead of yelling for help. I don't understand why he would be "whistling" for his mom. (Whistling is in context of his mom.) Calling yes. Looking yes. Whistling is unexpected.

(and) - missing information/time.

I wonder if the vessel is ever found, there would be tape affixed to it windshield (taking a bow-on bearing)

Also, everything he reported he did to locate his mom was passive. "ing" x 3

Anonymous said...

OK. My partner and I have read this blog, and all the comments, and need to respond.
1) My partner is the parent of a child with Asperger's. That child does have the ability to lie, and convincingly. He can look either of us straight in the eye and tell a lie. When caught, it is never his fault. It is always the fault of someone else that he was caught. When something in his life goes wrong (example:trouble in school) he always blames someone else. As to following rules, and being particular, the rules apply to everyone else but him.
He also has the ability to make up stories and he believes them to be the truth, even when we have shown him evidence (including video recording) to prove otherwise.....in that case, he accused us of "editing the recording", even though we recorded it and showed it to him immediately after, with no time lapse.
2) We live in Vernon VT, which is the town NC lives in. We have had frequent contact with him. Frankly, he scares the shit out of us. We are familiar with his behavior traits as we have seen him often. He has initiated screaming matches in our town offices when something has not gone his way. He has demonstrated violent outbursts- when something on the house has not gone right, loud yelling of profanity, followed by throwing his tools out of the house (including off the fourth floor/roof) soon follows. You may have seen on the news that he was "renovating" a farmhouse- he started this project 2 years ago, and it has really made little progress, as he works on what he wants, when he wants. The house had no roof for over a year. He has done 99% of the work himself. choosing not to involve others. When he has involved others, after the work is done, he has then attempted to not pay the full amount owed.
His neighbors feel the same way we do- when he is out in his yard, they hide in their houses. And they did that even before Mom went missing. When Mom went missing, after he was found, he came home Tuesday, gave interviews Wednesday, then went right back to working on his house like absolutely nothing had happened.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 5:40, Yes, some people with aspergers will continue lying in the face of undeniable proof and can cleverly twist the story to blame anyone or anything or any phenomenon BUT themselves...just as you are saying your partners son did by saying the videotapes were edited.

I do believe that aspergers people have neurological/mental problems yet it is very hard for me to reconcile understanding how they are not at fault for horrible actions they engage in or pathological lying they do to cover.
I also do believe they do not grasp the humanity of other people and see them as being "objects that move", yet their high intelligence SHOULD enable them to grasp the humanity of others. But they do not. They regard others the same way a child might regard a toy doll that can move or talk.
I read a scientific article full of lots of scientific mumbo-jumbo that I could understand but cannot speak in such sophisticated terms, however the jist of it seemed to be that the reason why aspies are so fascinated by how things work and the parts that make up a thing rather than the thing itself....is that they neurologically cannot view things or people as a unified "whole"...ie that is a complete person who also has feelings, thiughts, difficulties, talents, etc...they view things and people as fragmented...in my opinion (not the article's), this type of fragmenting of reality is much more similar to disorganized schizophrenia than autism in that it is a profound disturbance in how reality, or the world itself, is processed. I think maybe they lie so much because if things, people, reality seem fragmented to them rather than "whole" things, they figure why not just make it whatever THEY choose? Perfect example...your partners son feeling the videotape did not have the integrity of being a "whole" concrete thing, rather, in his mind, he easily thought...well, it could be edited...which would mean parts taken out and/or added to the videotape. Yet he knew it wasnt edited, I think they just feel no obligation to see things the way others see them, like if he knows it is a possibility that videotapes can theoretically be edited then that should be "equal" to the fact it wasnt edited. I know an asperger person and that is how the person thinks...yet yes they know they are lying. Its very maddening.

Hippie Gypsy said...

Yes! It's Sensory Overload.

Anonymous said...

Oh also, with what you said with your partners son convincing himself of stories he makes up...that is what it seems like...it seems they fully convince themselves of their version and others must just go along with their version...but deep down, they know they are lying. I know it seems like they dont know, but they do. Part of it I think is that they are convinced that others are not nearly as smart as they are, so to them, their version of the story is the truth and to not be questioned and it hard for them to imagine anyone actually getting proof...they lack that anxiety most people would have. They regard others, even very intelligent people, as inferior intellectually even when that belief is unfounded. If you get them to open up, they will reveal this belief...the one I know revealed they could have and should have been the world's top brain surgeon...said with complete conviction and absolutely no medical training of any kind.

Hippie Gypsy said...

Yes, when parents let the Hooker Beach Barbie look on a 12 yo, then a mother wondering why her 14 yo is pregnant is no mystery.
I too was tomboy, and can climb a tree, play with the kuds, and rock a little black dress with stilettos like nuthin. I even put makeup on O.O but the narcissistic behavior of patents is ruining children, especially if it's generated toward another parent.
The latest girl kicked out of boy scouts is another thing.

But this case here is very disturbing. Parental/children homicide is on the rise sadly.

Hippie Gypsy said...

Thank you. The negative comments are making it sound like anyone, anywhere on the spectrum is a psycho.
People shouldn't confuse aspergers with narcissism. Aspergers lack of empathy is due to sensory overload, and we feel emotions very much so.

Narcissists are heartless. They enjoy your pain and their praise.
I enjoy this blog for years too. Good insight with the grandfather, didn't know that.

Hippie Gypsy said...

Agree. Far sides of the spectrum are nonverbal, head wall banging.....to perfect SAT scores and just socially awkward. It's a vastly long spectrum.

Hippie Gypsy said...

How far apart are 'Smart, shy and awkward' going to be from Aspergers?
IYO, What dx is most like it now? (Not a big Pharma fan btw)

Unknown said...

I truly believe Nathan is telling the truth. I have first hand experiences with aspergers victims and they truly act the same way Nathan does. People need to have FAITH.

Peter Hyatt said...

More to come on the this case...

including addressing the expert opinion that order would not show priority.

Peter