Tuesday, April 12, 2016

3 Men Attack Jogger

Here is an interesting news story that was posted on Facebook for analysis.

What do you think?

Is she truthful or is she deceptive?

Runner in warning to other joggers after she was sexually assaulted by three men in street

A runner is warning other women to be wary of jogging at night after three men ‘circled her’ and sexually assaulted her in the street.
Claire Worswick was just half a mile from her house when she describes the terrifying moment the men blocked her and started touching her at about 9pm on Friday night in Ashton-Under-Lyne . 
The 33-year-old, who bravely said the M.E.N. could name her in a bid to prevent other runners being targeted, said: “I was just doing a short run and I have lived in Ashton all of my life so always feel safe. I got a few minutes into the run when there were three men walking towards me on Turner Lane . 

One of them had a bike and as I approached them they were on the pavement so I ran onto the road. Then one of them put his bike in front of me to block me. Then the other two men circled around me.
“They tried to pull my trousers down and then started touching me between my legs and smacking me on the bottom.
“I didn’t really know what to say or do. It went on for a couple of minutes and I tried to get past them but the man with the bike kept moving it in front of me.

She said she was worried they would take her to a nearby alleyway and attack her. But she managed to escape and ran the short distance home.

She added: “I was ok at first but I then called the police just to make them aware of it. But they told me it was sexual assault and they were glad I called them.
“I called my brother and then just burst into tears.”

Claire is an avid runner but said she has been left scared and will no longer go running after dark.

She added: “I never run with headphones in so I know what’s going on around me and I have lived here all of my life so always felt safe. But I won’t be going out in the dark anymore. It has really shook me up.

“I feel angry that these were men who should have known better and known what they were doing was wrong. I just want people to be aware of this.
“These men will have mothers and sisters, how would they feel if someone did that to them. It’s disgusting.
I felt I had to tell people about it because the next person might not be so lucky.”

A police spokesman said: “

At around 9.10pm on Friday, March 11 2016, police were called to reports that a 33-year-old woman had been assaulted whilst out jogging on Turner Lane, Ashton-under-Lyne.

“All of the men are described as white and between 19 and 20-years-old with one of them wearing a parker style coat with dark coloured fur on the hood.
Sergeant Steve Lovatt of GMP’s Tameside Division said: “This is a worrying incident that left the victim understandably terrified.
“I know this will no doubt worry many people in the local community but we have increased patrols in the area for reassurance and are keen to speak to anyone who may information about what happened.”
Anybody with information should contact police on 0161 856 9350 or the independent charity Crimestoppers, anonymously, on 0800 555 111.


Anonymous said...

Elements of her experience sound plausible; others not so much. I think a bike was involved, perhaps to force her off the path and onto the road. Did she get into a verbal altercation with them? I don't hear language of sexual assault."Should have known better and know what they were doing was wrong." That's soft language for someone who's supposedly been physically "touching me between my legs." She says she was OK at first. What?!
Her bursting into tears sounds real to me but not because I think she was assaulted, but because she felt frustrated with the men who were inconsiderate and likely refused to get off the running path with their bike.
The woman goes from indignant, to ok, to angry, to terrified? I'm not buying it.

Tania Cadogan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tania Cadogan said...

It is a very passive account.
As an aside on twitter if it the same person, her runs and route are posted along with times etc.
There is a big gap between her run on march 11 and her next run on march 21


From her FB page

Claire Worswick
March 13 at 10:27pm · Ashton-under-Lyne, United Kingdom ·


I wasn't going to post this on FB, but I want to make people aware. On Friday whilst I was out running a group of 3 lads with a bike blocked my path & wouldn't let me go, they did some inappropriate things whilst they wouldn't let me go. It's been reported to the police and I have given a statement. I am telling people not because I want any sympathy as I don't I just want people to be aware and be careful when out and about or running alone at night, the next person may not be as lucky as I was

Anonymous said...

I believe this is a truthful statement. I believe it really happened to her just as she describes.

Anonymous said...

SA flags as sensitive people's speech habits and less-than-perfect articulation, but as long as the analyst doesn't infer deception without further questioning it won't interfere with accuracy.

However, this subject twice dropped her "I" pronoun at the same point: when she wrote she has always felt safe before this incident.

People do drop the "I" to avoid awkwardly repeating it too much in a sentence, for smoother speech, but both of these have the opposite effect.
I would love to hear her voice and watch her body language, especially her eye-contact at those points.

Peter cautions us frequently that deception can be completely unrelated to the incident (questioned over a workplace theft; maybe one is trying to conceal an office romance, etc.)

This woman's story has holes; I'm going to go through it thoroughly, but just at first read through, something in her brain during FEP is tripping over that particular issue.

Also not seeming a like writing style quirk: she first wrote that one had a bike.
A bit later, "one of them moved his bike" to block her path. This reads like they all had bikes.

Their described activities sound innocuous for three grown men assaulting a woman -- more like three snotty punks with no specific plan or clue what to do next.

She "didn't know what to say or do" so she did what, stood there mutely without even yelling for help?

They all poked and groped and prodded, also without saying a word or trying to shove her off balance or anything else?

Again, the reported physical assault sounds like little brats, or even one brat, not three grown men.

It doesn't seem plausible they were all completely mute during the entire incident; what was said during whatever encounter, that would be obvious it wasn't the sexual assault she described?

Anonymous said...

Whoops, time to change my contact lenses; I entirely missed the UK term "lads" - epic FAIL on me!!

However, I still want more detail on my other blues.

All of Peter's recent focus on overcoming bias, is there even one SA veteran in here, especially Peter, John, Tanis, FFOF, who doesn't struggle with the proven reliability of that liars' number of three?

I'm still a comparative noob and I'm starting to see in in blue even on road signs! :^D

Another area I see easily susceptible to guilt bias: she starts off mentioning Facebook, aka LookatMEEE.com of the fake hate crowd, and explaining why she reportedly changed her mind about posting it.

She seems at least as focused on justifying her choice to post it on Facebook, and emphasizing the sympathy she does not want, as she does her stated reason of warning the public.

Tania Cadogan said...

Off topic

Authorities were searching the rural property Monday of an Oklahoma couple arrested in connection with the disappearance of their 9-year-old nephew in 2006, but didn't disclose what new information led them back there to look for his body.

A court hearing is tentatively scheduled Tuesday for Rex and Rebecca Clark, who were arrested Friday after authorities obtained a warrant linked to the disappearance of Colton Clark, who was also the couple's foster son.

They are currently being held on $3million bail each.

Assistant District Attorney Paul Smith has said the arrest warrants allege first-degree murder, child abuse, child neglect and conspiracy to commit a felony, but no formal charge had been filed by late afternoon Monday.

Seminole County Sheriff's investigator David Hanson declined to say why authorities reopened the case seven months ago or where they got the information that led to the arrests, citing the fact that charges had not yet been filed.

'We have interviewed a lot of people,' Hanson said.

'I believe we have a very strong case against them.

'There is a lot of evidence that has come to light.'

Seminole County District Attorney Chris Ross said Monday he did not know whether Rex and Rebecca Clark had hired an attorney.

A relative of the Clarks who answered the phone Monday ended the call when told it was from The Associated Press. He did not respond to a subsequent voice mail.

Colton and his older brother lived with their aunt and uncle after their parents terminated their rights to the boys.

Their parents, who were excluded as suspects early in the investigation, were both seeking treatment for drug addiction.

The Clarks homeschooled the boys and were under the supervision of the Department of Human Services. A counselor tried to set up a meeting with Colton multiple times, police said.

'The Clarks kept making excuses. They would schedule an appointment but then call back and say he was sick...they made several excuses,' Seminole County Sheriff Investigator David Hanson told the Red Dirt Report.

'Finally the worker told them, 'Look we're coming out there today and we're going to see Colton'. That's when Rebecca called 911.'

Colton was reported missing on April 20, 2006, prompting investigators to launch a wide-scale search across 2,500 acres using helicopters and search dogs.

At the time, investigators thought he may have run away in part because his backpack was gone.

But then Homer told police that his brother's favorite shoes were still at the house, claiming Colton would have never left behind his boots.

'Homer said he had two pairs of shoes that he always wore and both pairs were still at the house,' Seminole County Sheriff Shannon Smith told the paper.

Smith also observed that Homer wouldn't look at police throughout the entire interview, only at Rebecca and Rex.

'There was total control in that room,' he said. 'It was like he was looking at them, checking with them for permission to say anything.'

A scent dog also failed to pick up any track outside of Colton's window or 10 feet beyond the home, despite Rebecca's claim that he had jumped out of it.

Tania Cadogan said...


There was also the fact that the couple immediately referred to Colton in the past tense, refused to take a lie detector test and that Rex Clark 'didn't seem concerned' by the his disappearance.

He told authorities that he had raised the boys to be survivalists who knew how to survive for days - or years - on their own.

A neighbor was the last person outside the Clark home who saw Colton alive, a month before his disappearance.

Smith said Friday that Colton is presumed dead and that investigators were searching the couple's rural Seminole County 5-acre property, about 65 miles east of Oklahoma City, for his remains.

The Sheriff's Office had medical examiners and other professionals on hand Monday as they searched, Hanson said.

He said the search could take just a few more days or could even last a month or more.

As for Colton's brother, Homer was quickly removed from the home. His name was changed and investigators have not been able to locate him.

'All I know is he lives out of state,' Hanson said. 'He was traumatized by it.'


C5H11ONO said...

“One of them had a bike and as I approached them they were on the pavement so I ran onto the road. Then one of them put his bike in front of me to block me. Then the other two men circled around me.

--She is saying that one of them had a bike. Then as she approached them (they didn’t approach her, she did them)
--Now “one” of them put his bike in front of her, but she is not telling us this is the same one she talked about previously, “one of them had a bike”. Why didn’t she say, the one with the bike put his bike in front of me?
-- She felt the need to explain why he was putting his bike in front of her, “to block her”, which is unnecessary since someone putting their bike in front of you blocks you and doesn’t need an explanation. She wanted to make sure the readers know that the biker’s intention was to ‘block her”.
--"The first sentence in a statement is a very important one. It is the point where the subject decided to start the statement. In many cases, the first sentence might include the reason for the events that follow." – One had a bike and she approached them.

She’s not telling us she was jogging. We are assuming because she is a jogger. But she hasn’t told us this. If she doesn’t tell us, we can’t assume it.
She has removed all “conversation” from what happened. She didn’t say they said anything to her, and she didn’t tell us she said anything. This is the unexpected. I would have said something to men that were touching me. I would have asked them to leave me alone!

She refers to her attackers as “men” – these are “men” on "bikes".

C5H11ONO said...

“They tried to pull my trousers down and then started touching me between my legs and smacking me on the bottom.”
--Tried is attempted but failed. Then they “started” touching her between her legs and smacking her on the bottom.
--She has not indicated which one touched her between her legs. If all three, I would have indicated, the one with the red shirt started touching me from behind and then I screamed and the one with the black shirt slapped my “behind” (as she so politely refers to). This is passive voice. She is concealing specific information, and is unexpected.
There is the beginning of an action, but not a completion such as “they touched me between my legs and smacked me on the bottom.” She is speaking in present tense when stating “smacking” me on the bottom, which may be a red flag for storytelling.

“I didn’t really know what to say or do. It went on for a couple of minutes and I tried to get past them but the man with the bike kept moving it in front of me.”
--She is telling us that she didn’t “really” (reducing commitment) know what to say or do. She didn’t tell us at all what she said or did. If she doesn’t tell us, we can’t assume it forher. Maybe this applies in this statement? “When a subject tells us what didn’t happen, what wasn’t said, what wasn’t seen, or what wasn’t thought, it is called a “negation” and it is an offering of critical information that is highly sensitive to the subject.”

She said she was worried they would take her to a nearby alleyway and attack her. But she managed to escape and ran the short distance home.
--this is not a direct quote

She added: “I was ok at first but I then called the police just to make them aware of it. But they told me it was sexual assault and they were glad I called them.
--She was OK at first, but she has not told us how she felt afterward.
“I called my brother and then just burst into tears.”
--I believe she placed emotions in the correct order here.

Claire is an avid runner but said she has been left scared and will no longer go running after dark.

She added: “I never run with headphones in so I know what’s going on around me and I have lived here all of my life so always felt safe. But I won’t be going out in the dark anymore. It has really shook me up.
--Information offered which was not sought, and reported in the ‘negative’, i.e. what someone did not do, did not see, did not think, is often an indicator of deception.
--This is not a strong denial. She included “so” as part of her denial, and using "so" to explain why she doesn't wear headphones is a need to persuade. The brain knows the truth, maybe there is leakage.

Based on what she has said, I believe she has withheld information about what happened.

Anonymous said...

Quoting Tanis' exerpt: As for Colton's brother, Homer was quickly removed from the home. His name was changed and investigators have not been able to locate him.

If DHS authorities removed him, especially for his own safety, how does this not trump agency confidentiality laws as long as only LEOs know his current location and new name?

Since they apparently don't suspect these feces stains in Homer's disappearance, I'm inferring the agency did remove him?

Are these state-custody kids routinely fingerprinted for safety precautions like many innocent, loving parents do their own children these days?

If Homer is the older brother he would be at least 20 years old today, a grown man. Could they publish flyers with age-progression photos, around Oklahoma and neighboring states?

How do they know he disappeared a month after his last (known) sighting by someone outside the family?
I thought the timeline of missing starts with the last known sighting, not a month later?

Anonymous said...

C5H, we must have cross-posted; I mentioned the lack of dialogue, inconsistent language about the bike and the lads/men confusion a few posts above.

John Mc Gowan said...

OT Update:

Rachel Dolezal says she is writing a book about racial identity

Nearly a year after she was forced to resign from the NAACP after being accused of lying about her race, Rachel Dolezal says she is writing a book about racial identity — and remains unapologetic about misleading those who believed she was born black.

“I don’t have any regrets about how I identify,” Dolezal said on NBC’s “Today” show Tuesday. “I’m still me, and nothing about that has changed.”

If anything, Dolezal says, she wishes she would’ve clarified her racial identity sooner.

“I do wish that I could’ve really owned, you know, given myself permission to really name and own the ‘me’ of me earlier in life,” she said. “It took me almost 30 years to get there. But it’s a complex issue.

“Race is such a contentious issue because of the painful history of racism,” she added. “Race didn’t create racism, but racism created race.”

The former head of the NAACP’s Spokane, Wash., chapter set off a firestorm of criticism after her parents revealed she was born white despite the fact that she had represented herself as black for years.

In interviews that followed, Dolezal insisted she identified as black.

“I definitely am not white,” she said on “Today” last June. “Nothing about being white describes who I am. That’s the accurate answer from my truth.”

Dolezal admitted that she had engaged in “creative nonfiction” to “explain or justify” her appearance, but insisted she never misled anyone.

“I didn’t deceive anybody,” Dolezal told Vanity Fair last fall. “If people feel misled or deceived, then sorry that they feel that way, but I believe that’s more due to their definition and construct of race in their own minds than it is to my integrity or honesty, because I wouldn’t say I’m African-American, but I would say I’m black, and there’s a difference in those terms.”

Aside from working on the book, Dolezal also said she is also looking forward to “getting back into racial and social justice work.”


Anonymous said...

Quoting tanis:

As an aside on twitter if it the same person, her runs and route are posted along with times etc.

Even aside from timeline inconsistencies, someone actively fearing retaliation from three sexual assaulters and potential rapists doesn't delete the times, runs and routes that make it easy to find her and plan the best spot on the route at which to accost her and act without being interrupted?

Or, you know, maybe find a safer route?

Tania Cadogan said...

Off topic and further to my earlier post about this case.

THE mother of 14-month-old Sanaya Sahib has confessed to killing her toddler after being charged with murder by homicide detectives today.

Mitcham woman Sofina Nikat, 22, faced an out-of-court hearing at approximately 5:45pm Tuesday after the child was found dead in Darebin Creek early on Sunday morning.

Detective Senior Sergeant Stuart Bailey said Nikat made a “full confession” in a police interview over the death of the young girl.

She was pictured covering her face with a copy of the Quran while being driven into court between two detectives after being kept in an “undisclosed location”.

Dressed in thongs and a dark cardigan she held the book in her hand throughout and spoke quietly to say she had been looked after while in custody.

Victoria Police chief commissioner Graham Ashton on Tuesday tweeted: “Tks [Thanks] to our members for their hard work on this”.

The family of the deceased said they had no comment when asked if they knew of the recent developments, but according to Channel Ten crime reporter Sharnelle Vella, “police phoned the family a short time ago alerting them to the fact she [Sofina] had been charged”.

A post mortem is expected to show she died of smothering, the Herald Sun reports. However police media said the results have not been finalised.

Police said “Investigators are no longer looking for anyone else in relation to this investigation,” but refused to go into any further detail over the allegations surrounding the woman.

The charges come after Sanaya’s body was found in a creek about 2.45am Sunday, hours after her mother Sofina Nikat claimed a shoeless African man smelling of alcohol abducted her 14-month-old daughter while she was walking with her in Melbourne’s Olympic Park on Saturday afternoon.

The mother’s account sparked a major manhunt involving mounted police, members of the public and SES. No independent witnesses have come forward to confirm the 22-year-old’s account.

Police are scouring CCTV footage from the scene, but have not commented on what was captured on the cameras near the park.

Channel Seven reporter Karen O’Sullivan told Nick McCallum on Melbourne’s 3AW footage was also taken from security cameras outside a resident’s house nearby.

“The woman clearly is walking with a pram, it’s difficult to determine immediately what is in the pram as she walks towards the park and towards the road that leads to Darebin Creek,” she said.

“However on the way back, the pram is clearly empty.”

Earlier, Sofina Nikat’s uncle Habib Ali told the Herald Sunan ambulance was called to his Heidelberg West home, where the mother and daughter had been staying, a week before the child’s death because Sanaya suffered a seizure.

Tania Cadogan said...


Mr Ali dismissed the episode as “nothing really”, but paramedics were worried it had been triggered through a lack of oxygen via smothering, the Herald Sunreported.

Mr Ali told media outside his home Sanaya “didn’t deserve” what happened to her. She’s such a cute little kid … I don’t know why this happened. Whoever done it, shame on him, he is a coward.”

Ms Nikat and Sanaya had been living with Mr Ali after she split with Sameer Sahib, Sanaya’s father.

Mr Ali said Ms Nikat was shocked and “crying a lot” after the death of the child.

“She doesn’t know what to do or what’s going on, obviously.”

He said the family still did not know what had happened to Sanaya or how she died. They also had sympathy for Mr Sahib who is struggling to understand what has happened.

Fairfax reported on Tuesday two men that Sanaya had contact with in recent days were facing serious criminal charges, including family violence and assault.

The tributes for Sanaya continued last night with soccer players from Heidelberg United Football Club last night observing a minute’s silence for Sanaya before their match against Port Melbourne.

Dozens of people have also left flowers and cards for the toddler near the creek where her body was found.

One crying woman said she didn’t know the family bit couldn’t believe something so tragic could happen in their community.

“RIP sweetheart. So very sorry for your family, our heart breaks with them,” read one of the many cards left alongside a soft pink toy.


• 10am Saturday 9 April - Sofina Nikat tells police a man smelling of alcohol had snatched her daughter from her pram while they were walking through Olympic Reserve in Heidelberg West.

• 2.45am Sunday 10 April - Sanaya Sahib’s body is found submerged in Darebin Creek near where her mother told police the girl had been snatched.

• 8.45am Tuesday 12 April - Nikat arrested by police in Mont Albert.

• 6pm Tuesday 12 April - Sofina Nikat faces out-of-sessions court charged with one count of murder after police say she made full admissions to killing her daughter.


ima.grandma said...

Hobs, I'm familiar with the OK case you're referring to. I've followed the saga on this link I'm going to give you almost since the beginning. If you have the time and the patience, there's a huge opportunity to apply your SA skills. I remember re-reading it again after picking up tips from Peter. I was even more furious with this stupid woman. Let me know what you think if you decide to go after this.

Get ready for a wild ride with this one. :)


Hey Jude said...

I think some truth, but she has also changed some details - also, she seems to have had some doubt herself as to whether she was sexually assaulted.

As foodie noted, it does seem there was more than one bike. I think there is missing information.

They 'tried' to pull her trousers down etc - I think it's possible they were sexually harassing her, but did not get off their bikes, more circled her for a while, grabbing at her. I think her language may be passive because she believes it is somehow her fault, she instigated it by saying something to them, and maybe doesn't want to repeat what she said.

She is vague as to whether they were on foot or on bikes. She says they were walking on the pavement - three, with any number of bikes, would block her path. It then moves to the road. Maybe she said something as she ran past, annoyed at being forced into the road, and they pursued her on bikes. (Possibly, as British pavements are narrow, she did not at first see the bikes, or all of the bikes, if they were behind them, leaning on a wall - or in a driveway - she maybe only saw three lads walking toward her, who then got on their bikes.)

Maybe she thinks others would doubt she could be sexually assaulted by one or more persons while they were on bikes. It's possible they circled her on bikes. If two were circling her on foot, while one stood in front of her with his bike, she could more easily run off. I think they would more likely grab and assault her, if they were on foot, rather than 'circle her', as she could easily run off in the wideness of the road while they circled round her, and presumably, the guy who was blocking her. If they were on the road on bikes, it would be more difficult to escape as she would risk being hit by a circling bike. It seems likely she could be trapped for one or two minutes in the road, with little verbal exchange, if they were aggressively circling and grabbing at her - it would also explain why some of their attempts ('tried') were unsuccessful. She does not say she tried to stop them - difficult if they were circling and grabbing, out of reach.

I think if it happened, it was not quite how she said; I think something is likely to have happened - both because she informed the police, and also because she reacted emotionally when she learned that the harassment did amount to a sexual assault, even if they only 'tried' to touch her. In her later post she describes what they did as 'inappropriate' - she is not quite owning it as sexual assault, even though the police have said it was - maybe she feels she somehow caused or exaggerated events? People sometimes feel guilt where they shouldn't (perhaps they are quite young boys - thus 'they should know better') - sometimes people exaggerate. She may be an attention seeker - she may have wanted something to post on Facebook, she may have confronted them rather than passing them by; she may not want to share what she or they said. I don't know.

Hey Jude said...

Vague because what is 'put his bike' - it's not 'rode' or 'shoved' or 'rammed' - 'put' and 'moved' are not descriptive enough. They are words I'd associate more with being on foot with a bike. Could have cycled after her then jumped off in front of her, maybe. I think she avoids saying they were on bikes because she doubted if what they did amounted to sexual assault - she maybe thought it would be more convincing to omit they were on bikes. She maybe did not know, before she reported it, that sexual harrassment - uninvited and 'inappropriate' contact - amounted to sexual assault.

Also, she says 'men' who later become 'lads' - they were younger than she at first thought, when she saw them walking towards her on the pavement - later, after she has seen them close up, they are 'lads'. Maybe she think he is making too much out of it, if they are just kids, even so 'they should know better'.

ima.grandma said...

Hobs, it's a bit difficult to follow, some of the links are invalid now.I found this saved in my old computer. The saga began with Rebecca's initial comments dated June 26, 2006.  Colt disappeared April 20, 2006.


Colt Levi River Clark Is My Child.
He asked us to call him Colt, and he is my Child.
His older brother is also my son.
Before you post information about my son. You need to have your information right.
Currently, many people are looking for Colt. You do not know the story of my children’s life. You do not have the right to exploit them. If, you were concerned about my son, the porno remark would not be in your statement.
No there was not a porno ring busted or any arrests made. This was not a statement from our family. You call us Becky and Rex. That is what our friends call us, or people that know us. Colt is our adopted son. Yes we are his uncle and aunt. However; when you adopt a child, you become his or hers parent. Our son’s called us Mom and Dad because they chose to call us”Mom and Dad” the Boys asked us to be their parents. They called us when their Biological parents were in jail. We did what was right. We gave them a home and stability.
My children reported long term child abuse and sexual abuse. Child pornography was reported. The system failed my sons. But, they were used to that. The Boy’s jumped up and down when the parental rights were terminated. They stated finally! we are free from them. My oldest son kept stating “I want Justice” They started calling the biological parents “Our X parents”. We just tried to promote healing and provide a enviroment that made them feel safe and loved. It is called a home and a family.
The media has exploited my sons to some extent. I do appreciate the reporters that practiced professional ethics. Colt was on the air and people took notice. Negative reporting did not have to happen. News papers told some of his story. Some right, Some wrong and some times statements that just had no truth to it at all. However; people took notice, so that is what counts. Partial truths and manipulation of words is wrong. yes, the News is suposed to inform the public of important facts and knowledge/information. Entertainment should have nothing to do with the News. But, this is what is presented. Why? Because this is what sales. It is not right, but this is a fact. This is what the public wants. What a shame. It is insulting to listen to fashion trends when there is war, disease, starvation and people dealing with it. Not to mention the millions of missing people. Now it is hard for me to watch the News.

ima.grandma said...

Must the families of missing and exploited children endure the self focused remarks of ill informed people. Why must the children be victimised again. Do you realize Colt has a older brother? We continue to search for Colt daily.
Friday the 23rd of June. My heart was up lifted when a OKC Police officer confronted our family out side a resturant. Colt’s brother was having lunch with us after a Doctor’s appointment. Someone noticed him and called the police.They had noticed the appearance of Colt’s brother. You see they look like each other. The person that had called in thought he was Colt. They called out of concern for my son Colt. They did not give their name. They were not interested in the 20,000 dollar reward. We thanked the officer. Tears filled my eyes because we had felt alone. We felt like no one was looking for our Colt. Then our hope was renewed. Not only are people looking. People are doing. You see many fliers and posters have been placed by people all over the United States. There has been media coverage. Prayers are constant for Colt and other children. Do you have children? Pray that they will not become a victim. It is a living nightmare, and it is hard. Our hearts and spirits are broken. Those who know our family have blessed us with their Prayers and steadfast work towards finding Colt. This has been the worst thing that has ever happened in our life. It is tramatic not knowing where our child is. It is hard to eat or sleep. Only out of necessity do we complete our daily activities. We feel helpless, frustrated and sad beyond belief. It is torture. It is crulety in its worst form. Not knowing where our child is! You see we love Colt. We are worried half out of our minds. We know our son. We know that he loves his home. He was happy and learning to be a boy. Just a normal Boy that is what Colt stated he wanted the most. Colt is a wonderful little boy! He made our life shine, and is the sparkle in his Dad’s eye. We could not look at him without smiling. He had dreams and goals for the first time in his life. He rode ponies and herded cattle. He broke aand trained his pony. He won first place in a parade with his pony and friends. When he told me that he wanted to be a bull rider, I prayed for strength. But, was proud of his ambition to be a cowboy. We worked hard to help Colt achieve his goals. He had a hard life, but with courage he faced the hurt and pain from his past. He is a survior and he strived to overcome his damaged childhood.
Please, continue with your bloggs and help find missing children.
But, before you throw stones. You might try walking in the shoes of the family. Colt is Our Child!
Rebecca Clark and family
Posted by Rebecca Clark | 4:25 AM

One more thin for the record:
There was never a claim made by me or my husband that Colt had to testify against his parents. This is why you found nothing to support that. However he did report them and numerious others to the the Oklahoma County Sheriffs department and professionals. Children are suposed to be protected.
This type of information is private and not avail. to the public.
Posted by Rebecca Clark | 4:35 AM

Rebecca's comments are throughout the many posts. Kindralore did a good job documenting. She kept records of most everything this woman ever said to the media.

Anonymous said...

Multiple motions submitted by Sidney Moorer’s attorney prior to pretrial hearing

Read more here: http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/crime/article71376877.html#storylink=cpy

Tania Cadogan said...

Wow all the past tense references to Colt.

ima.grandma said...

What do you think? Are 'Wonder Woman' and Rebecca Clark the same person? - from the first link.

Anonymous said...

Quoting ima.grandma's post of suspect Rebecca Clark's rant:
" If, you were concerned about my son...

THIS is what I question about SA contamination by misinterpreting common written or spoken grammatical errors!

A comma is like a verbal half-pause to show separation.
"I bought steaks, potatoes, green beans and salad fixings for dinner."

You know each food item is separate by that half-pause between them.

"He was always a friendly, happy, boy."
If you heard a half-pause between "happy" and "boy" when a subject is verbally describing his or her missing child you would/should be all over that split thought as an area of extremely high sensitivity!

This woman also has the Julie Baker-esque Random capitalization In mid-Sentence; she puts apostrophe's in plural word's, etc., but those wouldn't inaccurately flag as sensitive, like tense changes from careless speech:

"When I dropped off my daughter at kindergarten I told her I loved her."

What, you changed your mind? Met a new kid on the way home? :^D
(note: tense changes in FEP are a highly accurate blue flag when not related to grammar or careless speech!)

FYI: If anyone is actually buying steaks, potatoes, green beans and salad fixings for dinner I'd be happy to come cook in exchange for a loaded plate...

Anonymous said...

ima.grandma, Rebecca Clark herself is a study in SA! Aside from making relentlessly greedy Julie Baker read like an English Language Ph.D shoo-in by comparison, she seems to be extrapolating bits and pieces from comments on the various news and social media coverage.

Cobbling them together in no particular order; just trying to cram in all of the concerned parent viewpoints and align herself with whomever the crowd apparently holds up as a leader of the good guys' side.

Without scouring the myriad comments on the articles and posts, I would expect that the phrases and thoughts among the jumble here are those with the highest number of thumbs-ups and likes.

And yet, a constant thread of narcicism and self-pity runs through her every thought. Even her praises of what a great kid Colt was read as all about what she lost!

And the constant switches between tenses here, even multiple flips in the same sentence are absolutely blue flags, despite her abysmal grammar!

ima.grandma said...

Hi foodie :) I agree. Rebecca uses a manipulation tactic because no self-respecting 'mother' of a missing child wants to appear unfair or unreasonable. 

Thought process:
So, if I can get you to believe that you made a rash or unfair judgment of me or my actions, I can easily get you to back off or back down in your confrontation.  I might even get you to question your assessment of me.  Even if I am a monster, if I can make you think you’ve unfairly cast me as a monster, you’ll probably get to wondering if you’re not the monster yourself.

Anonymous said...

Ok, this is different to the official account and more reliable! The fact that she used "lads" and not men (or even "blokes," is really significant. You see in Britain one would never describe an assault as having been carried out by "lads" because it's too nice and familiar. It's difficult to explain, but people use "lads" with a sort of affection, like "You lads are up to no good, away with you," is something a shop keeper might say with a mild shake of his head to a group of boys hanging outside his store. OR, "ME and the lads are going down the pub." The fact that she used "lads" tells me she was never afraid.

Anonymous said...

Your first sentence is reliable on its own. That you added to it shows sensitivity.

Seagull said...

On it's form, the statement appears to be outside the 25/50/25 ratio with a longer introduction. she says she was "just" doing a short run, (comparing two thoughts) and then adds what appears to be unnecessary and unexpected information about living in Ashton all her life "so" always feel safe. So is an explainer and living in Ashton all her life is why she feels safe. There is a dropped pronouns at this point. She says she always "feels" safe (this is after reporting the incident) yet later on she changes tense to always "felt" safe yet both are reported after the incident. The liars number "three" is mentioned.

There are a cluster of blues in the second paragraph (so and to). The language is not what I'd expect. "They tried (attempted and failed) and then started (an incomplete act) touching her. The article "the" sounds odd. there is no ownership i.e smacking "my bottom. She says what she didn't know what to say. When reporting a statement, something that happened, i'd expect her to say what happened. Her language / tone is soft and out of context. She tried (attempted but failed) to get past them the reason being the man with the bike kept moving it in front of her.

She then goes on to say how she was ok at first, completely neglecting to say how she got away from the men and what happened. Her reason for calling the police was "just" to make them aware of it. This is an unexpected reason. The police "TOLD" her as opposed to her "TELLING " them what happened.

She says she "never" which is a weak denial runs with and introduces the words "headphones" explaining "so" knows what's going on around her. She repeats (sensitive) that she has lived in Ashton all her life.

She only feels angry because she feels the men should have known better and what they "were" doing not "did" was wrong. Not because they attacked her. She uses the word "these" when talking about the men which is close and says they will have "sisters"? Mothers I understand possibly but how does she know they will / have sisters?

She felt she had to ( she didn't necessarily want to) TELL people. She didn't TELL the police about it when reporting it only people afterwards, BECAUSE the NEXT person (how does she know there will be another person?) might not be so lucky.

There is more of convince than convey in this statement with a number of red flags. She has a need to explain a number of points as opposed to saying what happened. she also reports in the negative that she didn't know what to say in a soft tone. The tone of language is unexpected. The tense changes from feel to felt. There is missing information, skipping over time, actions starting and not finishing and no explanation of how she got away. She gives a weak denial (never) She draws herself close as opposed to distancing and gives no descriptions. She felt she had to tell the public but only called the police just to make them aware.

Added to this, she was happy for the police to give her name for an obscure reason.

Anonymous said...

"It is insulting to listen to fashion trends when there is war, disease, starvation and people dealing with it."

First, it's another bit she lifted from other people's posts - most of her garbled sentences are loaded with spelling and grammatical errors; this one has zero.

Second, it doesn't remotely fit her rambling point even after tacking what is obviously afterthought about generic missing people.

Sometimes, order screams importance! Missing people - not even missing Colt - comes well after trying to align with people who are tired of apathy and shallow news coverage.

"Now it is hard for me to watch the News."

People yapping about fashion trends while others deal with war, disease and starvation make it now hard for her (again, all about herself) to watch the news.
Yet, her child missing for the past 10 years and the other removed from her custody and never seen again hasn't made watching the news painful?

I can't even wrap my brain around the life these two boys must have suffered. If I'm correctly interpeting the earlier post, DHS officials relocated Homer, not this disgusting feces stain?

And to think this pair was considered an upgrade from the drug-addicted biological parents?

ima.grandma, does she ever mention Homer? Does she ever write about missing him along with missing Colt?

Does she ever express pain, anger, outrage, that they pulled him from their home, and went so far as to change his name so they can never track him down?

The expected: My beloved child is missing; I'm innocent and devastated, and they come and take away my remaining beloved child, I would be going ballistic, and not stop until I got him back in my arms!

Seagull said...

I missed the point where she calls them "lads." Touching and smacking are present tense (the exception being if she is reliving an event from a long time ago) and appear out of place. "Really" is a qualifier and is an unnecessary word, especially given it's used next to a negation (I didn't) especially as the communicative language is soft and out of context. "it went on for a couple of minutes is passive, what went on? She doesn't say. She also "tried" to get past them. If two men were behind her and one man was in front, she'd only have to get past "him"

Whilst she says she was ok at first, she doesn't say how long after she called the police. She called her brother but only starts to cry (burst into tears) after she called him but doesn't say why. She's only angry because the men should have known better not because she was attacked, assaulted, abused etc. She refers to the incident as "sexual assault" when mentioning the police and how they termed it but minimises the whole event by saying that what they were doing (not did) was wrong.

The more I read the more I see. It's 2.30am. Applying the Statement Analysis rule, I should hopefully see it more clearly with fresh eyes in the morning.

Anonymous said...

I gues if she called them lads, then they probably weren't migrants. So, three local boys. If they had been middle eastern, I think she would have said so.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, ima.grandma, and also thanks for getting me hooked on another one to follow, hopefully to justice!

And now yet another Rebecca Clark WTF-ery:

"It is tramatic not knowing where our child is. It is hard to eat or sleep. Only out of necessity do we complete our daily activities. We feel helpless, frustrated and sad beyond belief. It is torture. It is crulety in its worst form. Not knowing where our child is! You see we love Colt."

Again, aren't there now two beloved sons they have no idea how to find, if they're safe, etc.?

Losing Homer, especially under such conditions, would seem even more "tramatic" since he is also their last, closest tie to his brother Colt.

Isn't having your child removed from your legal custody and his identity changed because authorities believe you murdered his younger brother an even worse form of "crulety" and torture?

Has she not seen or heard any news about Homer in nearly as long as Colt has been missing?

She clearly has no faith in the system that supposedly did so much harm and repeatedly failed to protect the boys previously - how is she not going literally insane with them forever blocking her access to him?

ima.grandma said...

Foodie, I'll search around for more tomorrow but I found this one

The adoptive mother, Rebecca Clark, has now refused the Sheriff’s request to submit to a polygraph examination including her twelve-year-old son Homer.

“My husband is on medication, and so is my son (Homer),” Rebecca Clark said. “They were already interviewed by the FBI and OSBI. My husband went to the psychiatrist at the VA (Veterans Affairs Department) and has PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder), and so do the boys from the trauma of abuse.”

Clark said a volunteer attorney agreed with a psychiatrist who sees her sons and advised them against the polygraph.

“He said it would be a lose-lose situation. The only thing that would be gained from that is nothing, and it wouldn’t be accurate with my husband and son being on medication and having PTSD,” Clark said.

There's a link to a video featuring Rebecca days after the disappearance but I can't open it with iPad.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, ima.grandma - if he's 12 at that time, and 9-year-old Colt's older brother, it took place shortly after Colt disappeared.

Also, he apparently wasn't yet removed from her clutches- er, I mean her care, if she could block officials from polygraphing him?

Hey, it's two hours later there; go relax and enjoy your favorite evening beverage!
Don't worry; we'll all be here tomorrow to run you ragged researching for us. :^D

Seriously, thanks for all of your detailed research and intelligent, thoughtful perspective and insight on so many cases in here!

Anonymous said...

Quoting Seagull:

"The more I read the more I see."

This is a powerful quote! So true, and says so much about SA.

If I envision reading a newspaper article about SA, that! is the breakout quote!

Like you, I also missed the UK term "lads" on first read, buried amongst her repeated references to men, and her writing "men" in the post title.

Hey Jude said...

Yes, 'lads' generally goes more with mischief than malice - but kids these days, some have no boundaries.

ima.grandma said...

I want to thank you for caring for my son Colt Clark. Your postings are kind and concerned for my son. It is now past 4 months and still no word about Colt. Our hearts are broken, but we will not give up hope. Our family and friends will never give up. Our hopes and prayers are that we will find him soon. We believe the biological family has him hid out.Colts brother believes this to be the truth.
Please remember the news papers and media take things out of context, and report what ever they want. The media got the police report and stated that my son's had been in a pornographic ring, and had been sexually abused. This was exploitation of my children for a head line, or top story. They did not get that information from me. I called the editor and complained. I have found this to be true in many of the reports. Nontruths are reported as a fact. This is a great injustice to my children and the public. I contacted channel 9 and the producer and told them that they had lower the profession of journalism to less than prostitution. The media has harmed my family to make a profit.However; it did get my Son's picture on the news and you saw the reports. That is what we wanted. The OSBI gave a excellent professional report. The spokes person stated that this kind of case brings the best, and the worst out in people. We have been helped by many wonderful people, and the OSBI has been working hard. The Missing Childrens Org. have been wonderful and their work is endless. I knew very little about these organizations. They stepped in and told us what needed to be done. We could not even think at that time. I know now that we were in shock. I do not know how we would have made it without the prayers of family and friends. Our community and neighbers have been supportive. I will never be able to thank them enough. People like them helped whe we needed without asking. I hope that no one else has to go through this kind of pain and stress.
The fact is yes my children were abused horrifically. There was child pornography, neglect, physical, emotional,mental abuse and prostitution. This was reported to the police by our children and we were told that there was not enough evidence for arrests. The Bio Father and his associates pasted a lie detector test. So has many criminals. The last serial killer caught in Co. had past one, and was release before caught again. However, he had killed more people. Look on the net about Polygraph tests. The Name for it is know as SWAG.. Somebody's wild ASS guess. This is stated by many intelligent persons, including members of the CIA. Also, there is much information on how to pass or fail the test.
My son's were shocked and scared after they went to the law enforcement and recieved no justice. We found out the hard way. The syatem works for the criminals extreamly well. It was shocking and alarming to our family.
I tell you this now, because the news stations and medial already told half truths about the abuse, and case history. The internet is full of negative, insulting, slanderous remarks about my family and I. I really am disgusted with it. I could not even reply to such remarks. Those people are so far off from the truth, it is sad. They need to get on the same map that most of the decent human beings use.The lies that are told are incredible.
I talked with Marc Klass, (Polly Klass's father)Brad Dennis, and Tim Miller founder of Equa Search. They stated they had all experienced the same kind of cruelity from the Law enforcement and public. That is why they fonded Equa Search, Missing Children, Beyond Missing, and the National Missing and exploited Childrens fondations. These are wonderful fondations and they all have internet sites. If you have time please check them out.
Once again I want to thank you.
Rebecca Clark

Seagull said...

I see it now. When I wrote I missed the word "lads" i should have been clearer. I meant I didn't see it in the article people wrote. It caught my eye in one of the posts here. I naturally assumed I missed it. I even did a spell check to see if I could find it. Reading over the posts I now realise it's from a separate Facebook post. Whilst having this extra information is helpful, I made my observations from the original post. It shows how working together, extra information is helpful. This is a change in language.

foodiefoodnerd - I agree, a nights rest and I see things differently. It was possibly my tired eyes last night. It's not quite the extra 40% information but every little helps and adds to the statement. Teamwork!

ima.grandma said...

This woman is cold and calculated. She intentionally sought platforms to contnue her narrative. Seminole is just a few miles from me. I used to take my kids there when they were little to ride horses because they loved the red dirt roads. One more time and then I'll stop...


WEWOKA, Okla. - Disturbing new details were released late Tuesday afternoon in the case of 9-year-old Colton Clark, who had been missing from Seminole county for 10 years.

On April 20, 2006, police said Colton disappeared from his Seminole home.

Colton Clark disappeared in 2006.
He was reported missing by his foster-mother and aunt, Rebecca Clark.

Rescue crews and authorities searched for days around the Clark’s property but never found any signs of Colton.

In September of 2015, the case was reopened by the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office and the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations.

On Friday, the Seminole County district attorney announced Rebecca and Rex Clark were arrested in connection with Colton’s disappearance.

After new evidence from the multi-county grand jury, a judge signed a search warrant for the Clarks' property.

He also signed arrest warrants for the Clarks for first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit a felony, child abuse and child neglect.

Rex and Rebecca had their initial appearance in Seminole County on Tuesday afternoon, just hours before arrest affidavits were filed.

The arrest affidavits and search warrant were finally filed late Tuesday afternoon and revealed disturbing details of alleged abuse by Rex and Rebecca on Colton and his brother, Homer.

The affidavit states "Rex used a red and white electric cattle prod to create an electrical shock to Homer and Colton's genitals."

Homer told investigators about a brutal beating in early March 2006 after the Clarks accused Colton of stealing a turquoise ring.

Homer said he saw Colton on the couch afterward, and his face was "black and blue."

He told investigators he was not sure whether or not Colton was breathing.

When he came out later, "Colton was not on the couch."

Investigators said "Homer was brainwashed to tell the story that Colton had run away."

The search of the Clarks' property continues.

According to the arrest affidavit, investigators believe Colton's body may have been buried under a hay bale.

The Clarks remain in jail on $3 million bond each.

ima.grandma said...

OMG - I know I said I wouldn't post about this again. I just found Rebecca's own blog she started September 2006 . What a Psychopath!

I'm willing to put myself back in time-out for reneging on my declaration (I can't do 30 days again - a penance of 10 days should suffice)


John Mc Gowan said...

Seagull said



there is no substitute for "teamwork," it's invaluable.

I get SA fatigue and i have to step back and regroup. When i get in that frame of mind my discipline is clouded, and at times, i look for what isn't there.

My brain hurts also. Lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks, ima.g - still not a word of the heartbreak of missing Homer -- but why bother; they aren't suspects in his exiting their family, right?

She also in the same babbling rant claims she never (ha) said the boys were sexually abused, then AGAIN writes they were, a couple of parapraphs later!

The red dirt: when I first moved there to OKC, I asked, "why does everyone so dislike that red dirt; I think it's neat?" :^D

Everyone exchanges glances, then finally my grandma said, "Y'all come ask me that in a month; I'll explain it for you then."

Confused, I just let it go. By the time a month passed, I'd bought a car, and of course washed it a few times.

I didn't have to ask about the red dirt anymore... :^D

(but I still liked it, and now I miss it, although not nearly as much as your powerful and beautiful thunder and lightning storms!)

Anonymous said...

Yes, I reckon the "lads" probably said something inappropriate to her, which explains the weak "should know better." It's only after she talks to her brother and police they become "men." Do you think the brother and police made her change her mind as to the seriousness of it?

Hey Jude said...

They helped her to understand that she had been sexually assaulted - she maybe burst into tears at the realisation that she had been sexually assaulted on other occasions, too, but had. not thought it 'counted' if it was not full rape. Some women don't realise that any unwanted/uninvited sexual touching is sexual assault, and a crime - some men maybe don't know it either. If you read Peter's analysis, it helps explain how some people react in certain situations.

Anonymous said...

If anybody is still following this one, how many vote to cancel ima.grandma's self-imposed exile?? :^D

All respect for your choice if it's for your own well-being (obviously, of course, needless to say, absolutely...), but your insight, perspective and google-fu are far too valuable to waste in time-out for even 10 hours, much less 10 days.

Free ima.grandma! !!!

Anonymous said...

Hey Jude, the term literally turns my stomach, but I'm hearing even so-called experts, women, discussing "well, is that rape, or rape-rape?" implying if no bruises or broken bones, or no weapon used it's somehow less traumatic.

They can hastily clarify any sexual assault is unacceptable, but that OR separating the two -even using different terms - absolutely minimizes the victim's trauma and tells her, rightly or wrongly, that her experience is less, and the message is "STHU and be grateful it wasn't worse."

It also strongly implies she's at least partly at fault.

Anonymous said...

Clark said a volunteer attorney agreed with a psychiatrist who sees her sons and advised them against the polygraph.

“He said it would be a lose-lose situation. The only thing that would be gained from that is nothing

For once, I totally believe her! No doubt her attorney told her this, but both are speaking about what's best for her, not justice and her boys' best interest.

Hey Jude said...

Foodie - I think Ima.grandma should post if she feels inclined - ten days is a long time - something irresistible might turn up on the blog. I'm not counting the days. :)

A few years back there was trouble here when the then Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, made a remark about 'serious rape' - a media furore followed which went on for weeks:


I got what he was trying to say, as he was speaking about lengths of prison sentences for rape, where realistically, a stranger rape, with physical violence, maybe with use of a weapon, and beyond the violence of rape itself, has and should have a longer sentence fitting those aggravating elements of the crime, than say, rape within marriage, or by coercion. It was not intended to suggest that any victim was not seriously traumatised, but that was how it was widely interpreted. I do not know how one might measure trauma.

There's difficulty around the language of rape, and of other forms of sexual assault, whereby the use of 'serious' has, by default, to seem to lessen the seriousness of that which may not be considered (for sentencing purposes) so 'serious'.

In my own life, I have not considered several incidents of sexual assault to be serious enough to want to report (neither have I reported those which were) - I'd find myself to be vengeful and a life-wrecker - men are (really) sometimes taken by a moment's temptation. Also, I grew up in the 'Benny Hill' and 'Miss World' era, in which women and girls were expected to take any impropriety, which these days would be recognised as sexual assault, as good natured and a compliment.

I do sometimes think the pendulum has swung too much the other way, that the police here making general appeals along the lines of 'come forward - you will be believed' is actually quite ridiculous - it's an open invitation, especially where celebrities from the Benny Hill era are concerned - whatever you tell us, true or false, you WILL be believed. I can't get my head round it - it was such a different age, men did feel entitled, anyone who was ever within a hundred yards of a celebrity (most of the nation's youth, at some point) could claim to have been a victim. So many victims - when the compensation cheque book is out. Perhaps I lack sympathy, but sometimes I think, 'really - that moment, even if it is true, traumatised and totally wrecked your life, that much?' 'You didn't just feel disappointed and disillusioned to discover that your favourite DJ or heartthrob was just another schmuck?' - okay, maybe some of us are made of stronger stuff - I would consider some of the things that happened to some of the compensation seekers as not quite shrug-offable. but also not something to get all vengeful and screwed up about. I do get though, that if they were not already familiar with the ways of the world it could be traumatising.

I also can't get my head round how scary it must be to be a young man who gets into a relationship with the wrong type of woman.

Hey Jude said...

Should add, all decades ago - all the men who have any part in my life of now are gentlemen - perhaps not all quite 'perfect gentlemen', but in that respect, they are gentlemen.

Hey Jude said...

I should also add, as reading back what I wrote, does seem insensitive, that I did not mean to imply that anyone else is vengeful or a life-wrecker in reporting any type of crime; if they do seek redress that is not vengeful, and if it wrecks someone's life, it is through their own doing in committing the crime.

In the cases I am writing about, I knew the men, they were of good standing in the community (one I did not know, he was a hospital consultant) - if I reported them, and if I was taken seriously, they would have had a lot to lose, if even only by way of reputation. Also, in those days, sexual assault was not taken as seriously as it is now, women and girls were conditioned to think differently than they are now.

In more recent years, considering those incidents, and the possibility of reporting them as historical crimes, knowing I would be taken seriously, I still choose not to, putting their acts down to moments of weakness, and also because I have a forgiving nature - it is a very personal choice, for which people like myself are often castigated as being irresponsible, in case there are other victims. I think, if that is the case, and if it was more than I choose to believe, then someone else either did, or will, report them.

Apologies, anyway, if I offended, anyone -and about the other bit, if that offended - I do tend towards the cynical at times.