Did DeOrr Kunz jr drown because he was not being watched properly by his parents?
Is this a case of unintentional death and subsequent panic coverup?
Police have announced that the parents of DeOrr Kunz are "suspects" and it appears this is by reason of deduction.
Why make this announcement?
Why make this announcement now?
The announcement comes on the heels of frustration by the public who sought answers for the child, with commentary overwhelmingly in favor of unintended death and cover up by the parents.
Is this a signal of weakness?
It may be that the announcement is made now in hopes of not only pressuring the parents to speak out more, but to cause someone of whom either parent has confided in, to come forward.
What we have learned through Statement Analysis has come primarily from the father, who loves to talk. Unfortunately, in the lengthy interview, the IR did not do a good job in brining either parent to a place of denial, nor even about the polygraph. Here are some specifics from the analysis to consider:
Analysis Question:
Do the parents possess guilty knowledge of their son's disappearance?
In viewing good social introductions, we may be able to rule out
intentional homicide, but not accidental death and coverup. This
is simply because the parents love the child, and what may have
happened initially, was not intended but came from negligence.
With parents panicking over being believed, or due to substance abuse, they would need to remove the child from the locale and report him missing.
Question: Does this theory fit the language?
The case (and analysis) has progressed enough to take a working
theory and apply it to the interview's analysis.
Do the parents possess guilty knowledge of their son's disappearance?
In viewing good social introductions, we may be able to rule out
intentional homicide, but not accidental death and coverup. This
is simply because the parents love the child, and what may have
happened initially, was not intended but came from negligence.
With parents panicking over being believed, or due to substance abuse, they would need to remove the child from the locale and report him missing.
Question: Does this theory fit the language?
The case (and analysis) has progressed enough to take a working
theory and apply it to the interview's analysis.
Interviewer: Alright, DeOrr, take us back, was it Friday?
Jessica: Yes.
DeOrr Sr:.i'm not sure what day it is today!
I : today's Monday.
This is not expected as "the clock" and "D-Day" are often
very important to the hormone-elevated parents. The
exception may be due to extreme fatigue. Generally, the
loved ones are on high alert, and know exactly how many
hours, including days, that the loved one is missing.
Might this suggest that the father, DeOrr sr, wishes to be
viewed in a 'victim-like' status as exhausted loving father?
very important to the hormone-elevated parents. The
exception may be due to extreme fatigue. Generally, the
loved ones are on high alert, and know exactly how many
hours, including days, that the loved one is missing.
Might this suggest that the father, DeOrr sr, wishes to be
viewed in a 'victim-like' status as exhausted loving father?
J: It was Friday.
D: Friday, about 2.26 was when I, was it 2.26?
day of the week.
Should the same parent know exactly the hours
the child has been missing ?
J: It was 2.36 when I called.
looked at the cell phone to note the precise time, perhaps in
preparation for the interview, or due to the "clock" ticking,
concern. We let the words guide us towards a conclusion.
The mother wishes to assert herself (pronoun "I"), which
should have signaled interview strategy of working one
against the other, particularly the mother.
D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to
the road trying to get service because I didn't think one bar
would get it. So I, she got very very lucky. I was blessed that she
was able to get service because I didn't think, I didn't want to try
and risk getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it
cut off. So I went down to where I knew I could get a little
service, about a half mile down the road.
Note the delay in him making this call warrants explanation.
Note this in relation to his wife's correction, precision and
use of the pronoun "I" to assert herself.
This is an extremely sensitive portion of the interview. The
father wishes to convey that which is unnecessary: that he
was rushing and in a panic.
The need to persuade is therefore, noted. There is no reason
for an innocent (or delaying parent) to make certain we, the
audience, knows he was "hauling" and rushing.
We have an extreme point of sensitivity and it is about the
father being inside the truck. Let's explore this.
We note that the father, "D", explains why he did something
without being asked. This indicates a need to explain why he
drove in his truck. This means that he thought to himself, "I
better explain why I was in the truck because they are going
to ask me about it."
without being asked. This indicates a need to explain why he
drove in his truck. This means that he thought to himself, "I
better explain why I was in the truck because they are going
to ask me about it."
only when not asked, to the color blue which is the highest
level of sensitivity in analysis. Should we find two colors of
blue close together, the sensitivity becomes extreme to the
subject.
First:
The exact time was off and was corrected by the mother. He
did not remember the day, but used the word "about" when
giving the exact time. There is nothing "about" when stating
"2:26" as "about" is used to estimate. We use estimation
with round numbers, and round times.
"It was about 2:30" is consistent.
"About 2:26" not only shows preparation, (and failed
memory or communication) but to say "about" shows the
inconsistency of using estimation and exactness.
The time when police were called is a sensitive topic, but this
is not as sensitive as the truck.
The Truck
the father, so much so that he twice explains why he was in
the truck.
This is very sensitive to him, as is the time line.
Why is it so important to him that we, the audience know, he
was in his truck?
*If this was unintended death, was the child moved, via truck,
by a nervous father?
That he was "hauling" is not only unnecessary to say (no one
would consider this a leisurely
drive) but it is also 'story telling', which is to make us
consider the location of the emotions within his statement.
The father in the truck has produced intense sensitivity in his
language.
Uh, we searched for - after about twenty minutes in a dead
panic, not knowing where he was in such a small area, and not
knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble.
Does the choice of wording suggest leakage of unintended
death and cover up?
panic, not knowing where he was in such a small area, and not
knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble.
Does the choice of wording suggest leakage of unintended
death and cover up?
He began with "we searched" indicating unity, but then gives
an 'editorializing', or inclusion of emotion ("dead panic").
The emotion here is not necessary since the child is missing.
an 'editorializing', or inclusion of emotion ("dead panic").
The emotion here is not necessary since the child is missing.
put there artificially unless something has caused the subject
to debrief and process the emotions.
What causes emotions to enter due to processing?
a. the passage of time.
When enough times passes, it becomes more difficult to
conclude "artificial placement" of emotions. In truthful
accounts, especially fresh, or told for the first time, the
emotions come in the "after" portion of the statement. Such
as:
I could not find him;
we searched everywhere in the area;
I called 911.
I was in a panic.
This shows that the emotions take time to process, especially
since parents are on "auto pilot", that is, zoned to find their
child.
What it makes us wonder is if they really were in a "dead
panic", or they wish to convince us that they were. The
choice of the word "dead" may be leakage; that is, that
while considering the truth (see theory), the subject uses a
truthful word that comes directly from experiential memory.
b. The repetition of the account.
Once the account has been told, emotions have had time to
settle in, and in repetition of an account, the emotion is then
sometimes added in the "logical" portion.
I do not know if this father has repeated this account enough
times to have processed emotions. I do not think enough
time has passed, by this point, so my question has to do with
how often he has repeated this account.
"dead panic", however, is not a word ("dead") we expect a
parent of a missing child to use.
"I knew I was in trouble" is an interesting statement. What
"trouble" is he in? Does this mean he must take action to
protect himself? "Trouble" may suggest that what happened
to his son was not anticipated but became a circumstance
in which he needed to get himself "out of trouble" from.
Um, so we decided to call search and rescue, uh, and that's
when I drove down.
when I drove down.
Next, "we decided" shows both the unity of "we", but also
that they 'came to a decision', which is to say: There was a
delay in calling for help.
To need to "decide", or debate, tells us also that what
happened was not likely intentional.
Here, the parents may have been left with a decision: do we
report what happened to authorities, knowing that even
that Child Protective Services will be involved, or...
do we handle this ourselves.
Note that the father, himself, was in trouble.
Did the decision making process include any threats from
him towards his wife to say "we both are in trouble" so you
better support me in this? "After all, it was an accident!"
It is very likely that there was a delay in calling, which
confirms the analysis of the father's "hauling", or need
to persuade that he was rushing.
Next, "that's when" speaks to time. He returns to the truck,
further making this a very sensitive point to him. Is this
where DeOrr was transported, chronologically?
The truck, the truck, the truck...it is repeated in his
language, and it is something that is of great importance to
him and even includes editorializing language, which often
belies the need to persuade.
She tried getting a signal out - um, as soon as I got a hold of
the,, I kind of, they told me that she was on the other line with
them and they had our location, and they were on our way. They,
they were amazing, they are amazing and they still continue to
be. Ah, Lhema High County Sherriff and Salmon Search and
Rescue, you could not ask for a better group of people,
volunteers, and search and rescue, and just everybody. You
couldn't ask for better people - so sincere, so concerned, and
they were - everybody was emotionally attached to this, as you,
anybody would be of a two year old.
As we have noted, this is to praise searchers who failed.
the,, I kind of, they told me that she was on the other line with
them and they had our location, and they were on our way. They,
they were amazing, they are amazing and they still continue to
be. Ah, Lhema High County Sherriff and Salmon Search and
Rescue, you could not ask for a better group of people,
volunteers, and search and rescue, and just everybody. You
couldn't ask for better people - so sincere, so concerned, and
they were - everybody was emotionally attached to this, as you,
anybody would be of a two year old.
As we have noted, this is to praise searchers who failed.
He's pretty small for his age but he moves pretty good, and that
was our concern.
'rebutted' by the word "but", in describing how well he moves.
b. Note next that he uses the word "that", which is
distancing language; and
c. He uses the past tense "was"
Taking the distancing language of "that" and the past tense
"was", it suggest that this is not his concern, any longer.
d. Next note that this is not his concern but "our" concern.
This is a form of personal distancing by a biological parent.
He, uh, was right with us, where it's at, I mean I thought it would
be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls and
mountains, and there's not much space around there he could go,
and our biggest concern was the creek, which was knee deep and
a few feet wide, but he's a little guy.
Here we see the need to justify himself. He is "in trouble"
and he is in need of justification.
be perfect to go camping there because it's enclosed by walls and
mountains, and there's not much space around there he could go,
and our biggest concern was the creek, which was knee deep and
a few feet wide, but he's a little guy.
Here we see the need to justify himself. He is "in trouble"
and he is in need of justification.
He went on to praise those who failed to locate his son, but
next we see something else unexpected: concern about
gossip:
J: They thought it was, it might have been, a part of a shoe, or something, but they said, go check that out.
D: These guys search miles, so the miles radius they have - it's
very rocky terrain, it's very open, it's not -.the helicopter they
used is used to back very deep Montana, it is designed for a lot
worse situations than this, and there was not a trace of my son
found - there still isn't but the search is on, that's - the hearsay of
things has kind of gotten way out of hand, the search is so far as
it's been put on, that it's been suspended, and that is not entirely
sure or true. Sheriff Dave of Lhema HC, I just spoke with him on
the phone this morning - he has got horseback riders and
trackers up there right now, and very advanced professionals. I'll
be going up, and I've just come down to get any resources I can
get to go back, right on back up today. Um, what questions do
you guys have?
The use of "my son" is consistent with the theory of
unintended death.
Note that he has told us:
1. He is in trouble
2. Referenced his son in the past tense (no longer in need)
3. Praised the failed search
4. Is concerned what people are saying about him in
"hearsay." It should be of no consequence.
unintended death.
Note that he has told us:
1. He is in trouble
2. Referenced his son in the past tense (no longer in need)
3. Praised the failed search
4. Is concerned what people are saying about him in
"hearsay." It should be of no consequence.
I: You were in the truck so you were the first to realize, ' Oh, no,
DeOrr is not here.'
D: No, we both did, I -
J: We both did.
This is a signal of distancing language via plural
pronoun use by a biological parent.
Recall "we decided" is something that indicates a delay, a
possible debate or discussion and the joint sharing of
responsibility. This is a sensitive point to them both.
Consider this with his statement about finding the
perfect safe place, which is self justification, showing it
as a need, and fitting the theory of unintended death.
D: After twenty minutes of up and down the creek and up and
around the camp, and he wasn't there, that's when I got in my
pick up truck and drove down the road to try and get some
service.
J: - especially after screaming his name, we have nicknames for
him, no sound of him, no crying.
She knows his nicknames: She must be a good mother.
This, too, shows need to justify and rebut criticism of
not being a good parent.
This is an important point about the mother:
Everyone (or most everyone) has nicknames for their toddler.
Did you notice that the mother has no need to quote herself
using the nicknames?
D:.he's a goer and a mover but he does not go away from his
parents, he does not.
This is a positive and actually not an insult as he both praises
his ability to move, and recognizes that he doesn't drift too
far from his parents. It is, however, the context that speaks
to us:
The need to show them as close, caring parents speaks to
Neglect.
Not necessarily chronic neglect, but the theory here is that
a short time of neglect caused DeOrr to die and the parents
fearing not being understood, or being blamed, took
matters into their own hands and made a false report
of him going missing, while the father had actually
disposed of the body.
J: Yes, he's very attached to us.
This shows her need to 'defend' herself.
I: So this is unusual.
D: Very unusual, sir.
J: And we didn't hear people around us, we didn't see anybody,
we have -
Off camera: social media, that needs to be addressed.
I: Yes, social media can be a good thing but it can also -
D: That's, that's one of the -
J:.We just don't want anything to twist it
I: Yes, we don't want to twist it, so clear up any rumors that you've seen or heard
J: We've-
Off camera [inaudible] - we
need to talk about -
J: One thing that concerned me -
Rumors cannot hurt DeOrr jr, therefore, the concern
expressed is for someone else, since professionals (who
were extremely praised) were searching using sophisticated
equipment:
D: We wanna get to that. Most of the biggest rumors that are
going around is - I mean, I have heard everything from the - I
mean, why you would make up a rumor that has to do with a
three year old is - if you're not going to help, please, don't - if it's
not helpful - it's -
J: Yeah.
She agrees. It is not helpful to the parents. In a missing
child case, the child is the one who needs help.
Interviewer : is there any rumors or anything you've seen that you
want to clear up, Jessica?
As in all missing child cases, it is better to ask, directly, about
their own involvement, to let them issue a denial. This is a good
place to deny involvement.
Jessica: I just, somebody at the store, um at Leador, said, it was
one of the ladies that had worked at the store, said that they saw,
um, a gentleman and a younger blonde boy matching our
description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him, and he
was just bawling, in a black truck. That is the only other...
DeOrre Sr.: There's a problem, my pick-up truck is black..
problem because he was seen driving his son, filthy, buying
candy or is it a problem simply because it does not make
sense?
It is a "problem" but not for the missing child, but the
parent.
Jessica: he drives a black truck.
The child is "missing" yet the father has the need to
rebut a rumor...about himself.
The child is "missing" yet the father has the need to
rebut a rumor...about himself.
DeOrre Sr.: as a family, we went down to get a few things. It was
me, but they claim it was at six o clock...that afternoon, evening,
but we..were...
Jessica: Earlier, it was earlier that day
DeOrre Sr.: ..with search and rescue until what, a quarter to four..?
Jessica: yeah..
DeOrre Sr.: we didn't, we never, haven't left the camp since one o
clock that afternoon, so it's just a lot of hearsay, and..
interviewer: was anybody camping round you?
D: that we don't know is...I come to find, I didn't know the area,
and I didn't know, I ..there, it's very open but you can't see much
...there's a road that goes up and along the top - we're camped
underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and you can
go up above the reservoir, and I didn't even know the road was,
did that, I didn't know the road was up there, and as I travelled
up there myself, I could've found out [?] I could see everything
that was going on at the campsite, but you can't see out - you
can't see up, you can't see round and if anyone comes to the
bottom of your camp ground you can't even see they are...
interviewer: So they could've come to your...
The father's habit of speech is to speak rapidly and lots of
self censoring. We note that this does not seem to change or
shift much, from topic to topic.
self censoring. We note that this does not seem to change or
shift much, from topic to topic.
him: it is about the area. It is likely, according to the
language, that he is very sensitive about having chosen this
spot for his family to camp. This is self justification while
no one has accused him. The site location bothers him,
which may also fit into the unintended death theory.
D: they could've come in and you could never know it. The water
was not very, it was not a fast running creek, but it is quite loud
moving through the logs and things like that, so hearing range is
not all that far either..so's you couldn't hear anyone coming up
either.
Interviewer: so he was just kind of playing, you guys were doing
your thing and then you noticed...
D: he was playing with grandpa
J: he, yeah, he was with my grandfather
Recall the assertion that officials said, "100% he is not
in the water" as offered to the interviewer. (full interview
is available on the blog search feature).
D:.he was over, he was getting ready for a nap, uh say it was
almost, by that time it was almost two, and he usually takes his
nap, um...we was just, yeah, we decided we were going to go a
little exploring, and he was going to be good with grandpa by the
campfire, we weren't more than fifty..
Do they believe he drowned because he was so tired and in
need of his nap?
J: ten minutes
D: fifty yards away and ten minutes, but for time, we, I, seen him
to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up to the
creek and I actually seen, there were some things down by there,
some little minnows that I thought he would just love, so when I
come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa, um,
where, you know, where is little DeOrr? He, immediately shock.
He says, he came up to you, because it's such a small area.
That's what a lot of people, they don't understand, they just
assume how could you let your child out of your sight? This area
is pretty well blocked in and you can see, you, there is no way
you couldn't not see him, in what we thought, and just a split
second your whole world is upside down and - vanished, there's
not a trace found. That's the reason why they, this been called on
the news a suspension, because it is not a suspension, but there's
not s single trace of him. This child loses stuff. He's two, almost
three, anybody who has a child that age range knows, they leave
trails, they lose stuff..
Here we have the need to be seen as any other parent. This
also speaks to a mistake and a desire to be 'understood' just
like "anybody" who has lost a child that age.
This, too, is consistent with unintentional death and
cover up.
374 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 374 of 374Lynda, Thank you for the transcription...I have read through it and have seen your comments where you caught Dad saying "I can give him back." Wow, just wow.
Combing through, a few things jump out
From Dad: Go over it again, what hasn’t been searched, anything that may have been overlooked, little pockets, things like that, that little sections that could have been overlooked that, k, now we’re gonna kinda narr.. try an narrow down into one spot here, one spot here,
"little pockets" "little sections"
Interesting that he is using phrases that could describe clothing or blanket. "Little sections"--something sewed together? Clothing? Blanket?
From Mom: M: With the colors changing up here it’s easier to see, ya know, his pajamas cuz they were light blue, , um, things like that, and y’know it kind of our last let’s figure out where we haven’t searched and let’s search those areas better
Mom is focused on the color "LIGHT BLUE"
Is she thinking "water". Is DeOrr in water?
It's odd, because I have noticed DeOrr's language in the "final search video" is focused on earth images "little pockets" "little sections", like he is thinking of a hole in the earth.
Jessica seems focused on "light blue" which certainly would bring to mind "water".
From Mom: everything that’s been, ya know, like picked up and moved and anything that he could’ve got under or ya know, lost his boot
"Everything...picked up and moved"
Is this leakage that they "picked up and moved" where they had initially been camping? Or that evidence (ie diaper) was "picked up and moved" by them?
"Lost his boot"
The "oversized boot" thing is VERY sensitive. The impression that I am getting is that 1) He DID lose a boot somewhere and the parents KNOW this...that he was only wearing ONE shoe when he met his demise. I am almost starting to wonder could they have gotten pissed at him that he lost a boot, so therefore had no shoes to walk around in, they had to carry him everywhere, he was putting a damper on their camping trip, so they got fed up and just left him somewhere??? Or lashed out at him in rage, "accidentally" killing him???
From Mom: everything that’s been, ya know, like picked up and moved and anything that he could’ve got under or ya know, lost his boot
Could this sentence itself explain what happened?
"picked up and moved"
"lost his boot"
Did DeOrr lose his boot and therefore, one or both parents had to "pick (him) up and move him" wherever he/they wanted to go the entire camping trip? Were they forced to carry him the whole time and lashed out in rage or simply left him somewhere in the woods?
Is that why Jessica "kept looking back"? They got fed up with carrying him around because he was missing a shoe and just abandoned him?
Natalie - I wonder if really he was wearing over-sized cowboy boots - or if Jessica just said that when she realised his proper shoes were at the camp or still at home - maybe the cowboy boots were those which Jessica had advertised for sale online some months earlier. She might not have thought anyone would know or remember they had been sold, so said he was wearing them. If in reality there were no cowboy boots, and his regular shoes were not missing, then there could have been an incident at home. Pointless to speculate - only the four adults know if DeOrr was there in his cowboy boots. I haven't seen him wearing them in any photos, though he was supposedly very fond of them and always wanted to wear them,
I think if the intention was to stop him wandering it would have been surer and safer to have strapped him into a stroller. If they were selling him, they wouldn't be likely to take a chance on him wandering off or being injured. I can't conceive of either of them selling or giving him away - but I know it does happen.
--
Grandpa Kunz said that little DeOrr kept little Hotwheels toy trucks in his pockets - that's the only mention of pockets, besides DeOrr's, which I recall. I don't see why they would involve grandpa and Isaac and go out into the middle of nowhere to sell or give away their son - some people give their kids away online these days, just deliver or collect, no questions necessarily asked. I have posted the address of an article which concerns the giving away of adopted children, but maybe it's just as easy to 're-home' or transfer custody of a biological child - as DeOrr and Jessica were not married, she would not even have needed to consult him. I'd be surprised if they did that, especially because he surely would have been found by now. No-one would want to have 'adopted' a child who was being reported as abducted in the news, and whose photo and grieving extended family was searching for him all over the internet - it wouldn't make sense to think they could claim abduction whilst selling or giving him away - adoptive parents would not want to be involved with that, or to have possession of an officially 'missing' child for a moment longer than they realised who he was.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/parents-giving-adopted-children-strangers-meet-online-article-1.1859236
--
Jessica said 'she kept looking back' - she also said a strange man was watching DeOrr in the store, and earlier gave the story of the 'filthy bawling' blond boy in the truck, which now appears to have no basis - so maybe the 'looking back' was an invention, too. Or maybe she did look back, at the same time DeOrr said he watched him till he figured out he was gone. I doubt, really, he could have gone more than a few feet in oversized cowboy boots - it's all so weird.
Could that be why Jessica pipes up in 1st interview and says the searchers saw from way up high an orange reppelant can but thought it might have been "a piece of a shoe or something"? Even though were his shoes even orange? Just sounds like she knew he lost a shoe somewhere and that may have been part of the problem.
Hey Jude,
Thanks for your responses an the info about the cowboy boots. I agree the whole thing is so strange!!!
The theory about them abandoning him bc one of his shoes fell off is probably wrong. Only thing I can say is "shoes" are sensitive for some reason. Hmmm...
That is interesting about the Grandpa stating about the hotwheels in DeOrr's pockets.
I agree Jessica may have made up the "I'm looking back..." bit.
I think if they sold him it was to bad people who may have been intending to exploit him, not a family looking for a child to raise. Although, I think it is unlikely he was sold.
It's odd how Jessica says that "if an animal got him" he may not be around anymore.
Some things that they state make me think of abandonment, they just trigger that thought that they just left him somewhere and walked off or drove off, although that is unlikely.
The case is so strange you kind of feel like you have to run every possibility through your head...
Yes, maybe he tossed a boot in the fire - if really he was wearing them. Maybe he tried to retrievr a boot from the fire, and that was why DeOrr was negative and called him 'child' when he said 'this child loses things' - well, if the boot had caused little DeOrr's demise he maybe would feel negatively towards DeOrr for loving his cowboy boots so much, even though that would be irrational - it wouldn't have been his fault though, poor baby. Still, no point talking as though that did happen when he may not even have been at the camp site.
If he was there, I can't imagine they wouldn't also have taken his proper shoes - they would know they couldn't expect him to walk in the cowboy boots.
One more shoe reference by Jessica in the initial interview.
"Shoes fall off...anything"
Hey Jude,
Right I agree it would be ridiculous for them to go camping with him wearing oversized cowboy boots AND even if he "disappeared" prior to the camping trip, it is odd that they would even tell LE that he was wearing oversized cowboy boots on the trip.
Your idea of the shoe being thrown in fire could have merit...I think of Jessica saying searchers thought that the can might have been a "piece of a shoe" implying the shoe had been somehow destroyed and broken apart into "pieces" which, certainly, a fire could do to a shoe. Very odd (considering a reppellant can is not small) why Jessica would feel it would be a "piece" of a shoe rather than just a "shoe".
Odd how Dad had said that kids leave "trails".
It's like both Mom and Dad conjur up images of DeOrr dropping a multitude of things behind him...broken shoe pieces..."trails"...one image that has come into my mind is the story of Hansel and Gretel walking through the forest leaving a "trail" of breadcrumbs...
DeOrr also speaks of the "blanket, cup and monkey" saying how DeOrr brought them everywhere even if he "had to trip on them".
So...it comes up over and over again, the sensitivity of shoes and walking...we picture a DeOrr in shoes too big, tripping over things, leaving a trail, pieces of broken shoe...
I don't know what it means...
Anon, thank you for pointing out the shoe reference. I had not noticed that.
There is a clue there I really feel like with "shoes" and also with "walking/tripping"
SB: I believe one has already been released and that was in the early stages of just him being missing, but now that we’ve determined that there’s possible foul play, I’ve asked my Dispatch Commander not to release any more copies of that but there are copies out there because I think it could be…it could be evidence.
WHAT IS on that 911 call that has made SB ask his Dispatch commander not to release any more copies of the 911 call. What evidence?
Interesting thought about the 'part of a shoe' - and the possibility they had told searchers he had lost one -'it would be a long way to carry him back if he'd lost one up by the reservoir, especially as one of them would already have had to carry him up there. Grandpa Kunz, in an early interview, said that if he was up at the reservoir someone carried him up there, as he couldn't walk on even ground, he kept falling over - so no way could he have walked up there himself, and in those boots.
Maybe they did abandon him in that 'safe, small area' - people ask 'how could you let your child out of your sight?' - because it's a safe, small area - 'you couldn't not see him'. Mayne they did justify leaving him, and thought he wouldn't move far - it was nap time, he'd just fall to sleep, or maybe was already asleep in one of their arms, so and they'd be good to put him down, and go fishing for an hour and pick him up on the way back down (sunstroke, though? - was it hot, well - they maybe then would leave him under trees in the shade). He's not there when they return - well, that's possible. Maybe Jessica said she kept looking back because she wished she had, if they did that, and he moved and they didn't notice.
Trina and the cowboy boot - I wondered if maybe they had and were going to plant one in order to discover it, but if then they realised they hadn't factored in weathering and that it, or any clothing, would have faded - in which case something could still turn up later. If really he had lost a boot and the parents hadn't soon found it, it would have been found during one of the searches, during the first search, most probably. If he lost a boot, and it wasn't found, where did it go? I'd think in the creek, or in the fire. But then, if they were told lost children leave a trail, and lose stuff - they may just have said that he would probably have lost his shoes, maybe even made up the oversized boots, just to be able to say something of what he most likely would have lost, without realising SAR capabilities at finding such tiny items in such a wide area. Then, maybe, when they realised something should have been found, they came up with the abduction idea as a way to explain there being no trail of missing items.
I don't know, it's doing my head in, so that's all from me for now.
Anon - Peter analysed the 911 call, and it is embedded in the article - go back to archives from July - DeOrr disappeared on the 10th, it will probably be a couple/few days on from there.
Apparently there were two dogs on on the camping trip. One was IR's and one was DK and JM's.
JMs dog did not get on with IR's dog, so JMs dog spent much of the time at Timber Creek, tied up. It made me wonder.
Is it possible that little DeOrr had been tied up or tethered to, say, the picnic table, so that he couldn't get into mischief, and subsequently strangled himself? Could that be why SB is asking people to come forward with info about JM and DKs interactions with DeOrr? Had they tied him up 'safely' before?
I am trying to think about what sort of accident could make the parents want/need to cover it up.
PS (I know of a man who tied his toddler to a fence with fencing wire, to keep the child 'out of trouble' while he fixed the fence).
Natalie - about the trail - when young children go missing, they often shed some of their clothes and shoes along the way - SAR or LE would have explained this to the parents - so they'd likely be panicking if they knew for a fact there was nothing off DeOrr's to be found in the search area - which there wasn't, and which is why the parents were under suspicion from the outset, regardless of what Sheriff Bowerman felt it expedient to say in public until last week.
I don't know why we're bothering with this - the dogs didn't pick up any trail. Still, it is interesting to think around. Just would be easier if it were possible to keep all of what we know in mind at the same time.
Anon - the cadaver dogs would have got that? Or tracker dogs, that he had been at that spot. Maybe they have - maybe that's why DeOrr is now saying he last saw DeOrr besides the picnic table. On WS, it was claimed a while back that the dogs kept returning to the camp and were interested in the area round the fire - I don't know if that has been verified - Sheriff Bowerman seems reluctant to be anything but vague with regard to the dogs, and has been reticent about that all along. So, either he knows something, or the dogs didn't alert, or they just were confused beyond usefulness by the cremains, and so the dogs have had to be discounted - it would be interesting to know.
I really am going to sleep now, maybe.
There has been some discussion as to whether the "campfire" was actually a burning fire, or just the designated area for a fire.
There must have been a fire going because SB said "COOKED breakfast". Not "made or fixed breakfast.
Then again, they might have had a portable gas camping stove thingy.
SB said "they tried to buy food" which ties into SM reports that they stopped at the Silver Dollar in Leadore onthe way to the campground to purchase food, but were unable to do so. The Silver Dollar is run by a registered child sex offender named Rebecca Cox. Are we ignoring an elephant in the room?
I still think they may have left Deorr sleeping in the truck too long.
People have been held responsible for deaths in that case. The other accidents would not warrant a cover up.
And while yes people sell their kids, most are drug addicts or have a history of abuse.
Peter has not picked up a history of abuse.
Accident is most likely
So that leaves the type of accident that would warrant a cover up
To me leaving him in the truck is the most likely
He commented on nap time. There's sensitivity about the truck... It makes the most sense
Could be told grandpa he was sleeping in the truck and would be back in a few minutes. Then were gone longer or forgot....or maybe didn't realize how hot the truck was.....
May have tried to revive him with no luck.
Hey Jude,
I think I understand what you are saying that the shoe, trail, etc may be just the parents essentially parroting what they have been told by LE that kids leave a trail etc. and that DeOrr may have disappeared prior to the actual camping trip.
The odds are against him having disappeared prior as that would mean they went on this coverup camping trip inviting 2 other people along who would have had to agree to lie about DeOrr coming along...this doesn't seem likely.
Isaac is using deceptive language. He is not issuing a reliable denial or even a denial about having in some way participated in the disappearance of Deorr.
The area is so vast, I am not convinced searchers would have found a shoe especially if it was thrown in water or even if not, the area is vast and we don't know where the Dad drove. I agree they could be parroting about lost shoes...although, it is sticking in their language for months...so...hmmm...
Anon, That is possible that they could have tied or tethered him...the Dad calling him a "mover and a goer" seems to convey the desire to keep him "still". Most people don't refer to their child as a "mover" as if it would be good if they stopped "moving" and stayed perfectly still. I wonder if there is anything in their language which suggests they may have actually tied him up or bound him in some way which could have possible caused him to suffocate. Calling DeOrr a "mover" could support that theory.
Dad said: "fifty yards away and ten minutes, but for time, we, I, seen him
to the point I figured out he was gone"
"seen him to the point I figured out he was gone"
This seems like the Dad leaks something here. It seems like they left him for a period of time and when they returned the Dad saw him and figured out he was gone (dead?)
Had he been tied up? Left in car? Assaulted and when Dad came back he had succumbed to his injuries?
VDK used similar language at the vigil.
VDK " .....One small mistake as a parent, leaving him with an adult that turns their head for a minute... they MOVE, they GO"
The sheriff has said that the parents " absolutely" know where DeOrr is. That is one of the questions VDK and JM repeatedly failed on the poly.
It has been said before on this blog that if somebody disposed of a body in water, ( eg. Snake River) that currents and or/tides would move the body so that the answer ". I don't know where he is " would be deemed truthful because the person really does not know where the water has carried the body.
So I became more inclined to think that the parents have buried him and know exactly where he is.
But now I wonder. If the parents believe inGod, and believe that Deorr is dead, do they believe in Heaven? Is that why they failed that question onthe polygraph? Perhaps they don't know exactly where the body is, but, they KNOW Deorr is in heaven.
Anyone?
Anon,
I think they know exactly where he is, and I don't think he is in water, I think they (probably the Dad) buried him. The Dad's language in the "Last Search" interview where he says they will
"Go over it again, what hasn’t been searched, anything that may have been overlooked, little pockets, things like that, that little sections that could have been overlooked that, k, now we’re gonna kinda narr.. try an narrow down into one spot here, one spot here,"
He's talking about looking in the earth for "pockets" "sections" (the word "section" brings to mind a grave the way he is using it) and "narrow it down to one spot"...I feel like he is basically leaking that they are "looking" for where DeOrr is buried.
I think they know where he is because the Dad buried him.
Anon,
So they did not fail the entire polygraph they failed in the portion relating to both what happened to, and the location of, their son. The two whose results,(all four times the two of them,)indicate deception. Yes I said four times!
"One of the FBI's top polygraph experts told us,'these folks are not being truthful,"Bowerman said.
Now I find out that the father spent ten straight days right after his son's disappearance searching the campground and the surrounding area,including potentially dangerous bear dens.
Browning (Kunz's attorney) noted.
I can't believe that the Sheriff's department let him stay up there like that. I mean, isn't it a crime scene? He probably went and checked on the, dare I say, grave! 10 days, wow.
I'm shocked.
Must be weird living in the same house with the man that buried your son in a unknown grave. And oh yeah, his father in the next room. I hope Jessica knows what she's doing. I hope he hasn't threatened her. Just feed up.
Maybe the mother is the bad parent and dad is covering up for her. Why doesn't she have her other kids? What did she do?
Very interesting about grandpa shaking Deorr upside down...maybe Deorr choked and Grandpa tried to save him by shaking him upside down, or for that matter any one of the adults shook deorr upside down. unfortunately this didn't save Deorr. Maybe it was the French fries.
spot the troll
I just can't wrap my head around the parents being able to either accidentally or intentionally harm Jr on a camping trip with two other people present and keep those other two from spilling the beans. Maybe Grandpa, if he suffering from dementia. But not IR, surely. The only way I can see that happening is if IR is also complicit in some fashion. The only scenario that sounds logical in that case is drugs being involved. Perhaps IR is making a deal to tell his story.
Oops! Should have said no-one will shortlist any of you folk for positions at any behav analysis unit because statement analysis is not a science at all - but a pseudoscience. Hope you are not paying anyone for tuition. And for the record, web sleuths are much more honest about their goals and motives... Please do not pay anyone for tuition in this and research the credibility of "statement analysis" - "narrative analysis" is a legitimate research technique but most of you would be better served at web sleuths if you want to sleuth- this is just twaddle - check it out guys.
PS The spookiest thing about the first parent video is the way Jessica continues to shift her eyes from her partner to the interviewer. If she already knew this stuff or at least knew what he would say because it was the truth she would have her head down perhaps but certainly not need to look from her partner to Interviewer and back again constantly. She is monitoring her partner and his expressions and the interviewer's reactions to check the congruence .
DCM,
Im sure the Dad has threatened her. He completely shuts her down in interviews therefore controlling what is said. He doesnt want her talking! Keep in mind, it was Dad who tried to flee in his truck while Jessica did at least call 911. Safe to say Dad did not feel "very very lucky" when Jessica got through! He may be telling her if you tell LE what I did to DeOrr I will just tell them you were the one who did it. We've all seen his gift for gab, and she probably fears he would be able to comvince LE she harmed DeOrr.
I think the first call was to Trina not 911. She then texted 911 to Trina (I saw the texts). Then Trina texted Jessica pick up your phone but obviously she couldn't.
The dogs didn't pick up a scent from Noah Chamberlin either, the little boy missing in the woods for a week in Tennessee.
He was found a week to the day he vanished half a mile from where Grandma saw him last.
I don't know anything about SAR dogs or Cadaver dogs, but I find it odd that they couldn't have smelled the little boy or a heavily soiled diaper a least from that close (don't know if they are trained to pick that up but just saying) - you would think with all the dogs and people they would have found Deorr or Noah faster.
Deorr might not have been there but if that is the case- Issac and GGP Walton are accessories to the fact, as they both claimed they actually saw little Deorr at the campsite.
Nothing makes sense.
Sandy G - 9.23am - you're late - dig back and you'll find that Jessica clocking Nate Eaton's reactions during their interview was mentioned here at the time.
So, you're really concerned that some of us might be wasting our time here; I like your admission that what you are saying is 'just twaddle'. WS - well, the mountain lion thing went on for a long time - that must have been a bit restricting.
Natalie,
Yes. We're in this together kind of thing. He probably projected his fear of prison jail onto her.
I was reading Colt's recount and in September they were all up there doing the reenactment and the local news crew shows up K And M both got upset.
Not Colt Vilt sorry stupid phone
Dad said: "fifty yards away and ten minutes, but for time, we, I, seen him
to the point I figured out he was gone"
This is strange language to use.
I would have have thought i seen(sic) him to the point he was out of sight.
Reading what he has said makes it sound as if he seen(sic) his son to the point he figured he had died.
First he gives us a distance and a time, 10 minutes, he then negates it with the word BUT.
He then gives another temporal point, this time not a marking of the passing of time as in minutes, rather, time until he figured he was gone.
This could have been minutes up to hours.
He says WE then self edits to I in relation to figuring he was gone.
This would perhaps imply he was present when his son died?
Was he perhaps the cause of his son's death?
Was the mom also present?
Had the mom been sent away so as not to witness whatever happened next and thus had some form of plausible deniability?
She may not know exactly, she knows the general location perhaps?
Gone would imply that DeOrr jr. was moving away from the parents as opposed to them moving away from him
Gone is an unexpected word to use if DeOrr was the one moving away from the parents, perhaps back to grandpa and isaac.
It is also an unexpected word to use if DeOrr jr was static and it was the parents moving away.
Out of sight would be expected since he was no longer visible for whatever reason, even i lost sight of him as i/we walked away.
I would expect some kind of visual reference, instead he uses Gone which means no longer present/departed.
If he died then he would have departed this earth (dearly departed)
If he died then he would no longer be present.
His physical body would remain but that which made DeOrr, DeOrr would no longer be present.
It no longer existed.
He was gone.
VDK .....and a lot of people free with me, a lot. He is no longer ( up the mountain)
He is no longer.
Sandy G,
I am enjoying reading all the theories that Websleuthers are coming up with after they read them here first.
Nobody here ever thought the parents were victims. We have been discussing the case for 7 months, without restrictions and time-outs and ridiculous Terms of Service.
And if nobody selects us for a position at a behavioural analysis unit, well, that might be because we primarily analyse statements; not behaviour, Genius.
Dont let the door hit you on the way out.
I think the most interesting part of this case is the fact that there is an "outsider" to the family involved who is not (that we know of) speaking about what happened. Families can keep lots of secrets just by their nature but its not often that an "outsider" to a family also seems to be keeping silent. IR should have lots of information even if he himself does not believe he knows or saw anything. We know that this campsite was so contained, everybody could see everthing so if IR was at the campsite he would have seen an accident happen. Likewise he would have seen a family of 3 head off on a walk and only 2 return. If he was away from the immediate campsite when baby Deorr went missing, he would have surely been called to help search or to summon help. At the very least he surely could give details about what everyone was doing or where everyone was when he realized the baby was gone. What the mood was like, what was being said.
And why would he not be telling every small detail that he knows? What would be his motivation for keeping silent? Surely he's considered that he's just as much a suspect as everyone else there that day. Surely the Sheriff has reminded him he could face charges of hindering an investigation? It can't be fear of grandpa or fear of losing grandpa's friendship that would keep him quiet. You would think empathy for a small child would cause even a stranger to want to do everything they could to help if they were in a position to do so. If IR caused harm to the child, you would think the family would turn him in. So the only thing that seems to fit is that he is somehow involved or complicit enough that telling what he knows would implicate himself in something that is worse than being involved in the disappearance of a child. It just doesn't make sense to me that he is not talking at all or that he is talking but has been unable to give anything that would allow the Sheriff to put serious pressure on the parents.
JMO...
I've been doing alot of thinking on the IR not saying anything publicly anyways. And maybe he was scared of DeOrrSr. He does seem somewhat timid.
DCM,
I forgot about Jessica texting 911 to Trina...I saw a 48 hrs where a guy killed his wife, made it look like she had an accident and then texted 911 to his lover as a code to tell her the killing had been done :( The cops were ALL OVER the fact he had texted 911 to his girlfriend--that's when they started suspecting it was a murder. So...maybe Jessica was more involved than we think :/
Good points everyone--I agree.
Tania...Right on. The wording is very weird. Like he/they did something to him, time passed, then he knee DeOrr was gone (dead).
People on here ladt night were questioning if maybe he was tied up?
Remember in the Ayla case, DiPietro said there were "rumors FLOATING around" and Peter pointed out was Ayla disposed of in water?
I noticed in interview, when asked about social media rumors, both Dad and Mom say "We just dont want it TWISTED." This makes me think of rope. One horrifying thought is was he tied or tethered? Was he strangled with rope or a ligature?
Jessica texting 911 to Trina speaks to premeditated homicide IMO.
Bradbury, I agree, Isaac's got to be in on it somehow.
Was DeOrr verbal? If one or more were abusing him, maybe they killed him so he wouldnt tell others about the abuse? Something sick was going on...why would Jessica text Trina 911?
Bad Juju,
Thanks. I remember Peter's analysis of JM's 911 call. However, the sheriff saying that he has instructed that no more copies of her 911 call be released because it may contain evidence, has prompted me to listen to it again, more carefully.
I believe the particular parts which are of an evidentiary value, to be the asides and interjections to and from whoever was with her. Either Grandpa or Isaac. It is very difficult to hear, and the words spoken to and by Isaac/grandpa were not subject to Peter's previous analysis.
If anybody has bionic hearing, PLEASE! PLEASE! Will you transcribe the portions of JM's 911 call where she appears to be talking to someone other than the 911 operator?
Another possibility is that IR was incapacitated (passed out drunk?) and truly did not see or hear anything. I seem to recall the Sheriff saying something about IR and GGP's polygraphs being unreliable because of their mental states or something to that effect. I was sort of puzzled by that at the time but it would make sense if IR was drunk or high. It would also seem to fit with his recent statements about being surprised at the parents being named suspects. That was surprising to me as he surely has some idea of what happened up there but if he was passed out in his tent it would be possible for him to know just as little as the rest of us. He also would not likely want to admit that he was so drunk he didn't even know a child went missing just outside his tent.
Bradbury, All good points.
It strikes me how Isaac (as well as the Dad in some ways) does act "oblivious".
Isaac acts oblivious and nonchalant such as when interviewer asks him what it has been like the past couple months, he says (paraphrased) "kinda boring...not much to do around here.
Recall the Dad's first response to the interviewer asking what day DeOrr went missing was him saying "I dont even know what day it is today!"
I dont know. Could be Isaac is truly oblivious but, if DeOrr's disappearance was premeditated it could also be they prepared themselves to play dumb.
I just listened to Jessica's 911 call again. There is a lot of background noise and its hard to tell what is background noise on Jessica's end versus what is background noise on the 911 operator's end. I wish I could tell though. At one point she says something like I'll call you back.
I did think it was interesting that she did not once ask them to hurry.
I've called 911 three times in my life. Once regarding a fire, once regarding a crime, and once because I was behind a drunk driver. The only time I did not ask them to hurry was the drunk driver. We were on city streets not going very fast and I could see exactly where the driver was. The other two times? "Please hurry!!"
Hypothetically, if neither parent wanted Deorr jr., why didn't they give him up for adoption? Was there a life insurance policy?
Initially, there was talk on the internet hat the mother had responded to a question on her FB page saying there was a life insurance policy on DeOrr but that she then deleted the comment.
Bradbury, She sounds very calm and composed in 911 call. It sure doesnt seem like the expected demeanor.
I think most people would be hysterical.
She also sounds calm when the operator asks if they are near water.
Slight tangent alert- Does anyone, besides me, find it concerning that Deorr Kunz Sr. (Deorr's dad and little DeOrr's grandad) is on record saying that "He [little DeOrr] couldn't walk on level ground without falling down."? SOURCE: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/missing-toddlers-grandfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/
Also this: ' "If he's in the water up there he was taken up there. He cannot walk on level ground without falling down. His little, short legs they can't walk up hill, he can't walk on level ground. He would have fallen and if he would have fallen he would have been crying. He didn't get up there by himself," DeOrr Kunz said.'
First of all, does this sound like a healthy, normal 2yr old? Was Little DeOrr developmentally behind physically? If so, due to health or birth-related issue, alcohol or drug use during pregnancy, neglect/malnutrition? Little DeOrr, Jessica, and DeOrr all lived with DeOrr Kunz Sr. (the grandad)...wouldn't he know?
Secondly, does this sound like Dad DeOrr's description of him being "a mover and a goer"? Reading comments above and remembering statements Dad DeOrr made in their initial interview, I'm bothered. The comments are stated in the negative, followed immediately by a "disclaimer", as if he doesn't want to be perceived as complaining about Little DeOrr. Self-will comes into play heavily in the 15mo. old-three yr old stage.
1. "He's a mover and a goer, but does not go away from his parents; he does not."- He's not a very good mover per Granddad DeOrr Kunz Sr.
2. "He's pretty small for his age, but he moves pretty good."- Not according to the grandfather he lives with daily.
3. "This child loses stuff. He's two, almost three, anybody who has a child that age range knows, they leave trails, they lose stuff."- Dad DeOrr speaks out of annoyance/irritation and then self- corrects.
4. "[referencing Little DeOrr's blanket, cup, and monkey] All three has to be with him...He will trip over them if he has to, but they are going with him..."- Dad DeOrr begins with Little Deorr's determination/strong will and references Little DeOrr's "tripping" (remember Granddad said he couldn't walk on level ground without falling down).
The obvious discrepancy with Little Deorr's walking and coordination is troubling. Did Dad DeOrr and Jessica need Little DeOrr to be more physically coordinated than he was to further their abduction story? If he was as motor-skill impaired as Granddad DeOrr Kunz Sr. said, immediate family, close friends, and others would have known as well. If he already had trouble walking, why would a parent buy over-sized cowboy boots for him and let him actually wear them outside of the house(pretend shoes vs real shoe)? Why would a parent, knowing all that, let him wear them traipsing around the rough, uneven ground of a campsite? It would just seem to lend to an accident. I wonder if LE has video of him walking?
Looking back and thinking over Dad DeOrr's statements, I wonder if they put Little DeOrr into the truck to contain him for his nap while they ______(whatever they did). I'm leaning heavily to medicated/ over-medicated to get him to sleep (Thurs. night or Fri. afternoon nap), left him in the truck napping (hyperthermia-related car death), used the truck as a play pen while they "explored"-"fished with Isaac", or Little DeOrr accidentally ingested alcohol or drugs.
Does it seem odd to anyone that Jessica says Trina asked them to go along to watch Grandpa with his oxygen, yet in their initial interview they supposedly left Grandpa next to a campfire responsible for an unsteady toddler? DeOrr says "they decided [he and Jessica]", as if he and Jessica wanted some adult time on this care-giving trip. Grandpa was ill enough to need a caregiver and oxygen, but able enough to keep up with a "mover and a goer"?
So no one else thinks Deorr may have been left in the truck "napping" and died?
The over-size cowboy boots: I don't believe Little DeOrr was wearing them. Jessica, in discussing the heat-seeking helicopter's capabilities, references finding the orange aerosol can as potentially part of Little DeOrr's boot. The boots weren't orange and no visible part of the boot was orange. Shanks of boots are typically steel, fiberglass, metal, or Kevlar (more expensive adult boots). The insoles could have been orange, but that's stretching IMO. In a former life, I sold shoes and no self-respecting mini-me cowboy would have orange insoles in their "big" boots. LOL
Whatever the accident, if it happened at the campsite or within the search radius, it was bloodless. That likely rules out a fire-related accident because a parent's natural instinct would be to pull the child from the fire. There'd be blood, body tissue, body fluids, and a scent trail- none of which they'd be able to "clean". Likewise, a head injury from falling would be unlikely- head injuries are usually notoriously bloody. A concussion would be the exception and could lead to fatal seizures. Violently shaking the child (especially if he is small for his age) could result in injury leading to death...more so, if he had an underlying health condition (diagnosed or un-diagnosed).
I'm wondering if perhaps the axe, overalls, and shovel may have been taken for soil analysis, to determine where the campers had actually been. Or to determine if any had been cleaned (blood, fluids, soil, or otherwise). If Little DeOrr was accidentally injured elsewhere (remember, bloodless) in the course of chopping wood for the fire, it's unlikely 911 wouldn't have been called for such an obvious accident.
Trust me, I think it's possible he may have been left too long in the hot truck and died. That's not quite an accident and similar cases have been publicized where the parents have been charged. Does anyone know how hot it was there that day? I can't quite reconcile Jessica telling the 911 operator he was wearing cowboy boots, pajama pants and a camouflage jacket. Seems like an awful lot of clothes if it was really hot out that day.
EATON: A lot of people have these theories that you had something to do with it, that you’re the man behind this.
REINWAND: I generally try to be nice to everybody. Try to be a good guy and help people out as much as I possibly can. If somebody’s in a bind and they need a place to stay for a day or for a couple of days I try helping people out with that too. I fix bicycles on the side and I give them away. I generally try to be a good person to everybody.
---
Is he inadvertently giving away that he helped them out in covering-up whatever happened to little DeOrr - because he's a nice guy,who likes to fix things?
I've had one of those ah-ha moments.
I'm pretty sure DSr is the only one who was present when their baby disappeared. I've seen this before in similar cases. The father's jealousys. I think he went back alone and hurt DeOrr, badly.
And, I think he's hiding this from Jessica. I know, I know. No way. But it makes sense.
Jessica was the primary caregiver. Dad was on the road alot. I believe DSr was jealous of Jessica's love and affection that her and her son shared. One only needs to look at the pictures. I choose to believe she adored him. Her lips are constantly kissing his little cheeks and he loved it. There are tons of photos.
Now that I'm crying.
I think DSr went back alone and this is why he says "we, I, seen him to the point.. There is some ownership but not all ownership. He had to say I because she was listening to this and Knew. So for her benefit. OK. Then on ownership
again, "I figured out he was gone".
I think he was jealous of DeOrr,and pushed him or slammed him down. Whatever horrible thing he did he had to hide the baby. And I think he must of scrambled back to the truck. He must of really played her. And that is why he insisted on leaving to make the call. Maybe little DeOrr was all about Mommy. And a little unstudy on he's
feet. So what!
So.. I don't know this, did Jessica search his truck? Under sleeping bags, behind the seat. Did she take his word for it?
She made the 911 call from the campsite! I mean he zooms away to get "bars" anything wrong with this picture? Not to mention they don't touch each other or hug, I see no comforting at all from him. She sits there clinching the baby's blanket, not the baby's father.
OK and one more thing I kept going back to DSr and the grandpa camp scene his choice of words. So I thought look up "shock" and here is my old dictionary definition of shock: to come into violent contact. To strike against suddenly, or shake or weaken as by violent impact. Violent collision. Horror/revolting. Fyi
Fools - if he died in the truck the cadaver dogs would have picked up the scent, surely? And I still think, terrible as it would have been for him to die in that way, and despite the trouble it may have caused them to be in, that they would not have hidden his body.
I'm not considering drugs, just because we don't know if there were any drugs - LE has not said that, and the family and Isaac have not volunteered or hinted that there might have been drugs.
Chances are if he was wearing those boots, he would not have kept them on for long. I'm wondering if they built an open fire like the ones they have lit in the news videos a few days after DeOrr went missing, and if he tripped and fell into hot embers the next day - it would still be very hot - he maybe was a mover and a goer in bare feet - great grandpa reportedly said he last saw him playing in the dirt. And it may not have been at that campsite - the changing stories don't speak to experiential memory.
What of Jessica saying they screamed his name (as parents do when they see or sense peril) and then saying NO sound of him, NO crying (attention to that which is stated in the negative) - was that bit true? There's also that description of the 'filthy, bawling' blonde boy 'matching our description of our son', who it turns out was not spotted at the store, yet Jessica had that description to the forefront of her mind, and whilst giving it, also was trying to distance herself from THAT DeOrr.
Plus Grandpa Kunz talking hypothetically about 'that boy' being very badly injured, thrown into a truck, and buried in a hole, as something which would not have happened. So, I don't know - but I think it's even worse than an overdose and/or overheating in the truck. Whatever the truth, at least the hope remains that whatever happened to little DeOrr was unintended. I think one of them will need a lot of courage to admit the truth - seven months is already a long time to have not been talking - perhaps not able, if they can't own to it, and would rather insist forever on him appearing to have 'vanished into thin air', as Trina described it.
---
Whoever asked - Trina said in one of the 'final search before winter' videos, that DeOrr is smart, and that he knows his name, ('me - DeOrr Kunz') and the names of his parents. She asked anyone who thought they saw him to ask him his name, and the names of his parents. So, if he was that verbal when he disappeared, he would probably have know the names of lots of things, maybe forming sentences of two or three words at that age - I don't know, it's been a long time since my kids were that age, but I think they are starting to make sentences around that age.
Foolsfeedonfolly,
Interesting how you broke it down contrasting Grandpa's statements with Dad DeOrr's.
That is a strong statement Grandpa made that he could not walk on level ground. There are toddler's who have developmental issues like that.
There is so much sensitivity in general regarding shoes (oversized boots, Mom saying aerosol can maybe a shoe piece?), walking, tripping, etc. What is being leaked? Is it all just fabrication? He wasn't really with them, so they are creating a fiction (oversized cowboy boots, shoes that fall off0)? Did something happen to his feet (injury?), Was he injured and unable to walk?
I've had one of those ah-ha moments.
I'm pretty sure DSr is the only one who was present when their baby disappeared. I've seen this before in similar cases. The father's jealousys. I think he went back alone and hurt DeOrr, badly.
And, I think he's hiding this from Jessica. I know, I know. No way. But it makes sense.
Jessica was the primary caregiver. Dad was on the road alot. I believe DSr was jealous of Jessica's love and affection that her and her son shared. One only needs to look at the pictures. I choose to believe she adored him. Her lips are constantly kissing his little cheeks and he loved it. There are tons of photos.
Now that I'm crying.
I think DSr went back alone and this is why he says "we, I, seen him to the point.. There is some ownership but not all ownership. He had to say I because she was listening to this and Knew. So for her benefit. OK. Then on ownership
again, "I figured out he was gone".
I think he was jealous of DeOrr,and pushed him or slammed him down. Whatever horrible thing he did he had to hide the baby. And I think he must of scrambled back to the truck. He must of really played her. And that is why he insisted on leaving to make the call. Maybe little DeOrr was all about Mommy. And a little unstudy on he's
feet. So what!
So.. I don't know this, did Jessica search his truck? Under sleeping bags, behind the seat. Did she take his word for it?
She made the 911 call from the campsite! I mean he zooms away to get "bars" anything wrong with this picture? Not to mention they don't touch each other or hug, I see no comforting at all from him. She sits there clinching the baby's blanket, not the baby's father.
OK and one more thing I kept going back to DSr and the grandpa camp scene his choice of words. So I thought look up "shock" and here is my old dictionary definition of shock: to come into violent contact. To strike against suddenly, or shake or weaken as by violent impact. Violent collision. Horror/revolting. Fyi
Hey Jude
You wrote
REINWAND: I generally try to be nice to everybody. Try to be a good guy and help people out as much as I possibly can. If somebody’s in a bind and they need a place to stay for a day or for a couple of days I try helping people out with that too. I fix bicycles on the side and I give them away. I generally try to be a good person to everybody.
Is he inadvertently giving away that he helped them out in covering-up whatever happened to little DeOrr - because he's a nice guy,who likes to fix things?
Good catch. It would seem like he is leaking that.
I also noticed in the quote above "if somebody’s in a bind"---another rope/tying up type reference, just thought I'd point it out, it seems rope-tying up refereces are in language of mother, father, Isaac,
DCM - I hope you're wrong. A few people who were commenting in the earlier DeOrr threads would agree with you, some are of the opinion that DeOrr did not make it back from the store - well, if ever he was even at the store.
Little DeOrr does look uncomfortable in the photos with his father - I doubt those are the only photos of them together though, it looks like Jessica only put those up because her other children were visiting with them - maybe just bad luck little DeOrr didn't look too happy in them.
I wondered early on if maybe only DeOrr knew what happened - but I think Jessica knows and knew, too - not sure about grandpa and Isaac.
DCM--Interesting theory.
I think there was violence done to DeOrr, and unsure of mother's involvement in the whole thing.
Interesting observation how you pointed out she does not seek comfort from father but from the baby's blanket. And he does not offer comfort.
I wonder too if she knew baby DeOrr's location when she called 911 or if just Dad knew.
Interesting catch on "shock" and how it can imply violence or horrorrified reaction. Interesting too how Dad says when he saw Grandpa "just shock". like it made me wonder if there was a look of shock on Grandpa's face when if he saw DeOrr with a dead or injured baby DeOrr.
I've had one of those ah-ha moments.
I'm pretty sure DSr is the only one who was present when their baby disappeared. I've seen this before in similar cases. The father's jealousys. I think he went back alone and hurt DeOrr, badly.
And, I think he's hiding this from Jessica. I know, I know. No way. But it makes sense.
Jessica was the primary caregiver. Dad was on the road alot. I believe DSr was jealous of Jessica's love and affection that her and her son shared. One only needs to look at the pictures. I choose to believe she adored him. Her lips are constantly kissing his little cheeks and he loved it. There are tons of photos.
Now that I'm crying.
I think DSr went back alone and this is why he says "we, I, seen him to the point.. There is some ownership but not all ownership. He had to say I because she was listening to this and Knew. So for her benefit. OK. Then on ownership
again, "I figured out he was gone".
I think he was jealous of DeOrr,and pushed him or slammed him down. Whatever horrible thing he did he had to hide the baby. And I think he must of scrambled back to the truck. He must of really played her. And that is why he insisted on leaving to make the call. Maybe little DeOrr was all about Mommy. And a little unstudy on he's
feet. So what!
So.. I don't know this, did Jessica search his truck? Under sleeping bags, behind the seat. Did she take his word for it?
She made the 911 call from the campsite! I mean he zooms away to get "bars" anything wrong with this picture? Not to mention they don't touch each other or hug, I see no comforting at all from him. She sits there clinching the baby's blanket, not the baby's father.
OK and one more thing I kept going back to DSr and the grandpa camp scene his choice of words. So I thought look up "shock" and here is my old dictionary definition of shock: to come into violent contact. To strike against suddenly, or shake or weaken as by violent impact. Violent collision. Horror/revolting. Fyi
Natalie - it does seem like leakage - I think Isaac most likely helped cover up, rather than that he harmed DeOrr. He can't say he wasn't involved or that he didn't do anything. Maybe he is talking somewhat now - well, if only grandpa might speak for him, and he's elderly and in more frail health and also not speaking to him now - he might feel it better to fill in some gaps himself rather than be further implicated by the desperate parents - who knows? They do - grrr.
Yes - twist, bind - I'd rather not think along those lines, though I will probably go through it again now to see if there are any other possible references. It is strange that DeOrr now remembers last seeing his son by a picnic table - something must have caused him to now decide to say that. Maybe he's realised that watching his two year old till he 'figured out he was gone' doesn't sound too good.
Natalie,
I see the look on her face when she corrects him on "what day is today and what day did DeOrr go missing. Like, please, you can't even remember?
I really do think there was some sort of fight when he jumped in the truck and flew out of there.
I also think in future interviews they should be separated.
In your January 30th post you already saw this, him hauling up the road, his wife already on the phone and he said he was very,very lucky to get through. You said that is not why he said that but that he didn't want her to get through. The opposite. I totally agree. Had she wanted to go see inside his truck? And this is why he fled?
About Isaac, I do think he was just there to fish, originally. All this is something he's not prepared to deal with. Maybe kind of exciting for him to have this much attention. I did catch the "kinda bored, not much to do in Idaho Falls".
He does not know the Kunz clan. He knows the other side- only ggp. In which they shared a mutual love of fishing, which by the way so do I.
When reporter Nate asked about "fishing" he kind of lights up. I understand completely.
I do tend to trust his answers since he had no vested interest in the couple. No reason to lie. I believe he was still up there fishing when D and J came down. So he might not have witnessed the disappearance. Keeping in mind that D said you can't see nothing from up there.
Had DSr frightened him? Did he help look for DeOrr? When was he alerted to the missing baby? These are questions I would ask. He actually seems like a fairly nice guy. I think he's a witness none the less, and maybe should take precautions. I mean this more than likely is a murder.
DCM - sorry to butt in - DeOrr said that he didn't realise the road went up round the camp and that you COULD see into the camp,any comings or goings and even to the bottom of the reservoir from up there. Where did he say you can't see nothing from up there? I wondered to begin, if he was worried Isaac had seen them from up above the camp, and if Isaac had nothing to with any of it, including the cover-up - if he just was scared and played ignorant, did not tell anyone if he had witnessed something. Maybe he thinks he was being a good guy and nice to grandpa and his new friends by feigning ignorance - if he knew, he might still not be able to give a reliable denial, because to know and not say would be to be involved in a cover-up, even if it was through silence rather than activity.
DCM, Good points. I do get the feeling that he was threatening to "flee" when he jumped in truck and maybe something was in truck he wanted to dispose of (evidence?) He may have chucked it out the window.
I do see how the Mom seems to be simmering with anger at the Dad in the interview and very aggravated with things like him "forgetting what day it is". My impression is she seems disgusted with him.
One possibility is that if there were any domestic violence from DeOrr Sr to Mom in the relationship, maybe Jessica and Trina had worked out a quick code word to signal "I am in danger from him right now". Maybe "911" was the quick code to be texted. Maybe it even means "Call the police." Perhaps Trina didnt call the police when Jessica texted her 911 bc she didnt know what to tell the operator Jessica's location was and that is why she texted "Pick up the phone" to Jessica.
"D : 2.36 when she called and I was in the truck hauling down to the road trying to get service
because
I didn't think one bar would get it.
So I,
she got very very lucky.
I was blessed that
she was able to get service
because
I didn't think,
i didn't want to try and risk
getting half way through my talking to 911 and have it cut off.
So
I went down to where
I knew I could get a little service, about a half mile down the road.
Uh, we searched for -
after about twenty minutes in a dead panic,
not knowing where he was in such a small area, and
not knowing,
never being there,
I knew
I was in trouble.
Um, so
we decided to call search and rescue, uh,
and that's when
I drove down.
She tried getting a signal out -
um, as soon as
I got a hold of the,,
I kind of,
they told me that
she was on the other line with them and
they had our location, and
they were on our way.
They,
they were amazing, ..."
Well explained; I wonder what that call was about though, it must have been rather important?
I also seem to recall that Jessica was low on battery and had to buy a new cell phone charger?
It's almost a miracle they both made it.
Hey Jude at 12:56 AM Feb. 2 said...
“Fools - if he died in the truck the cadaver dogs would have picked up the scent, surely? And I still think, terrible as it would have been for him to die in that way, and despite the trouble it may have caused them to be in, that they would not have hidden his body.
I'm not considering drugs, just because we don't know if there were any drugs - LE has not said that, and the family and Isaac have not volunteered or hinted that there might have been drugs.
____________________________________________________________________________
It’s my understanding that there’s roughly a 30 minute or slightly longer window for cadaverine to form (exact time frame varies with environmental conditions at the location). Little DeOrr could have passed passed in the truck and found within the 30 min.window. If Daddy DeOrr or someone else removed him from the vehicle inside that 30 min. window, there would not have been a cadaverine scent in the truck.
I mentioned possible accidental drug ingestion based on DeOrr’s “we decided to go exploring”, in conjunction with Jessica’s “going to the store to buy feminine supplies” and LE’s statement that “business was being transacted up there”. Business between GGP and Isaac? Between Isaac and DeOrr & Jessica (whom he did not know prior to the trip)? DeOrr and Jessica? It sounds like code talk for drug use or a drug deal.
Again, a fire injury would produce body fluids, tissue, and blood (as well as charred fibers, melted show material, etc.). Sheriff Bowerman has been clear there’s no scent, no trace of him. Unlike a house/vehicle, a campground would be impossible to scrub or clean of evidence.
Jessica screaming his name, followed by “No sound of him, No crying” is indicative of how people react to a traumatic/unexpected death- particularly involving a child. Parents, children, spouses will often scream the deceased’s name in their grief…as if to desperately call them back or wake them. Deceased children make no sound and don’t cry.
You made a very good point about Jessica distancing herself from the “filthy”, “bawling” boy “matching the description of our son”- she admits the description is accurate and matches theirs. She fails to rebut it with what was different about the boy. Perhaps because however he was injured, she didn’t want to believe the injured child was her/their son (the self-protective denial part of shock)…that ‘this can’t be real, can’t be happening” moment. Perhaps she’s distancing herself from the memory, even as she needs to rebut a possible witness account.
Hmm - we do all like our own theories best... I hope they really do have forensic evidence, and of the type which can put what happened beyond doubt and dispute. We don't know what they have - they're not likely to tell before a trial either.
I do accept that drugs and overheating in the car are possible - but who would dispose of s warm body (hot under those circumstances) rather than call 911 in the hope he might be able to be revived, even if he had also ingested drugs - they could claim it was accidental, the drugs were not theirs, and that great grandpa must have shut him into the car...;seeing as they are trying to blame ggp anyway). I can't imagine even the most panicked parents could bring themselves to dispose of the body of a child who was not even cold, and who might, even on an outside chance, be saved.
Well, parents are also liable to scream a child's name if they fear he or she is about to have an accident while they are too far away to be able to prevent it - in the hope the child will hear and stop, or realise whatever danger they are in. Everyone's different - I have not screamed at a dead person, or upon realising a loved one has died - I know others are more likely to do that.
(My post above is in response to Foolsfeedonfolly)
Hey Jude- I’m not saying my theories (multiple-LOL) are right and they’re certainly not the only ones. ;) I’m just trying to figure out what might make the most sense. What might seem sensible to me may be foolish to someone else and that’s fine. I’m not sold on any of my theories because I’m not LE , nor am I gifted at SA like Peter. You’re right…I don’t have all the facts. I’m sorry if I’ve somehow given you the impression that I think I’m all that. I’m definitely not-far from it.
I’ve been on many camping trips in the mountains and I’ve never had a child “disappear” from a remote mountain campground without a trace or scent trail. ;) Where I live, it’s not uncommon to have a person lost or missing in the mountains. It is very uncommon not to find any trace or scent. Usually if something seems impossible it’s because it is.
I think we’re all here because Little DeOrr deserved better. An accidental death is one thing, but most loving, normal parents just come clean. These two have invented a storyline that literally blew several communities’ laws enforcement budgets for quite some time. The multiple versions of their tall tale drug hundreds of search and rescue volunteers and Emergency Responders (a large number of whom are parents themselves) , as well as the vast majority of Leadore citizens (who put their own lives on hold to go up and search, ) through an emotional hell and risked their safety. Their story suckered people all over the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain into sending prayers, tributes, encouragement, and of course, money. Sheriff Bowerman has given them 5 ½ mos. to come clean while he waited on FBI and other evidentiary reports. Maybe I’m totally wrong, but it seems like if it were just a simple freak accident, they’d have come clean by now. They’ve put their small-town friends and neighbors through this (as well as Jessica’s children, their relatives, their friends, etc.) for 5 ½ mos. with fundraisers and interviews. For DeOrr’s sake, their own, and the Idaho Falls and Leadore communities, it’s time to tell the truth. Just my opinion.
Correction regarding cadaverine.
It is detectable by a trained cadaver og approximately 90 mins after death, not 30.
It can be a bit quicker depending on the surrounding environment such as hot or manner of death resulting in open wounds.
It can be longer if the surrounding environment is cold.
Decomposition starts ther moment of death with bacteria getting to work.
After a few hours, again depending on the environment (and manner of death) humans can detect it.
Once smelled it can never be forgotten, it is highly distinctive.
If cadaver dogs didn't react in the truck then it is probable he either wasn't transported in the truck 90 mins or longer after death, or, he was transported before there was sufficient cadaverine to be detected by dogs (less than 90 mins)
If he died of an accidental drug overdose, given to him by one of the adults (OTC painkillers perhaps bought for woman issues such as cramps), that could have been explained away as he thought they were candy and ate them and they didn't find out until it was too late and they couldn't wake him up.
If he died of ingestion of illegal drugs, this would be harder to explain away, how did he find them, who did they belong to>
A remote explanation could be found them at the camp, or they had been planted in one of the vehicles or they belonged to another adult in the group.
Some thing happened that caused the parents to go into cover up mode.
If it was an accident why not call 911 for an ambulance, even if he looked dead, parental instinct, especially that of the mom would demand help denying their child was dead.
This would perhaps indicate non accidental death, in which case was it negligent homicide, he died as result of them doing something to him, perhaps in the heat of the moment such as punishing him.
Was the death a result of a crime been committed against him such as abuse?
Or, was it premeditated?
If it was accidental why make it look like a homicide?
Perhaps it could not be explained away as accidental such as signs of abuse, old and new injuries, sexual molestation, long term sedation, illegal drugs.
Hey, Fools - sorry, I should have said I like my own theories best - (lol, follow the pronouns - I just don't want to admit it) - I have thought round a lot of possibilities, too, and none quite pans out satisfactorily enough- but then the parents don't necessarily think like any of us.
I agree, Tania - they could have explained away an overdose - even of illegal drugs - they could've said someone camping previously must have dropped something, maybe under the picnic table, where an adult might not notice but a little child seeing underneath it, might. The only accident, IMO, which they might not call in, would've involved the fire - no need to be graphic, but how long was he missing before they called 911 (really)?
Otherwise, as you say - hiding something. I haven't let my mind go there, probably because I don't think he was an abused child, so why suddenly would one abuse him to the point of death?
I have also wondered if one of the adults did something to DeOrr as revenge or punishment upon another of them, but I don't even know how to begin thinking about that as a possibility - I would have to start listening all over again. :-/
(BTW - I was reading your comment earlier on the article John linked (on a newer article) about people not being able to lie twice/ lie about a lie - you explain things well - I often find your comments very helpful.)
DCM ~your scenario explains how Jessica could pass the 911 'straight face' test.
In reference to the post made October 21st by Grace4Alya, she says she had inside info and eventually says it happened in the car. And she goes on to say he might be in a mine shaft.
She was working for the PI and was fired because she caught him in lies?
Anybody know about that?
I looked on our maps here, and sure enough there are old mines around the Bear mountain region. Just curious.
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/the-complete-deorr-interview-analyzed.html?commentPage=2
Grace4Ayla's comments are in this thread - she has deleted a few.
"NARROW it DOWN". Leakage?
A mine shaft is a possibility.
In fact, there is a type of mining. Called "narrow vein" mining.
Tania,
I agree, I have a strong feeling it was negligent homicide.
Been thinking today, how do we all figure out what happened to him?
Everyone here has put together so many clues.
We have identified the sensitive items
truck
creek
shoes
walking/tripping
(what else am I missing?)
One thing that occurred to me, and I don't know how useful an idea it is, but what if we try to understand the reactions of the individuals there to try to understand what was done to DeOrr?
By this I mean
1) Grandpa, upon seeing DeOrr was missing (I feel Grandpa may have actually seen him injured or dead) displayed "just shock". So, what did Grandpa see?
2) The mother says that upon DeOrr having gone missing, they SCREAM his name.
There is "no sound of him" "no crying".
(This statement from the mother makes me think he drowned, went under the water and was not "recovered". Although I don't tend to believe that's what actually happened, that is what the statement brings to mind.)
Anyone have anything to add or any thoughts?
I have another thought also which goes with the comment I just wrote:
How come the mother gave her "reaction", and the father gave Grandpa's "reaction" but the father does not tell us what his reaction or Isaac's reaction is when DeOrr has gone missing? What does that mean?
You know I just can't get my head around Grandma Trina's role in this. Jessica calls mom, mom leaves IdahoFalls and arrives before LE? I understand a girl's need for her mom. But.. disgarding the ONE and only diaper? Or did she? Maybe that was Djr's last diaper, the one he was wearing when he left this earth. I know that boy had to of been changed at least three to four times by then. Did J change him one last time. This would explain only one diaper on site. I don't think she would of buried him in a soiled diaper. The body does have secretions upon passing.
If Grandma is the protective parent that I think she is, she'll cover for J, without a doubt. Did she have run of the place? Wonder what she could of put in her car. I feel quite suspicious of her.
YouTube DeOrr Kunz family remains hopeful after two months.
D:"You hope for him to come home. You hope, you hope, to find him. But you also hope to have closure, one way or another. You go crazy. And you don't know what to do next. I hope that he is okay. In my mind, that is what keeps me going."
Trina:"We "have" become silent. Because we don't want them focused on us, we want them focused on this baby."
Jessica looks up one time. She's really looking sad. Or is she. She's keeping up appearances. Her hair looks freshly dyed, her nails nicely done. Am I being overly cynical? Sorry bout that, but, I don't think I'd feel good enough to go to the beauty salon. My beauty regiment would not be at the top of things to do list. Mind you I'd still shower and put on mascara.
She never says a word. Mom and fiance got this.
Trina said it everybody quit focusing on them, please. She kills me.
Natalie,
*I also think that ggp actually seen him injured or dead.
*I think they screamed when they found him injured or dead. The is "no sound of him" no crying". Silence. And I think that was where Dad really said"we,I, seen him to the point, I knew he was gone".
I think some truth IS in here but jumbled due to lying stumbling over words. Lack of good clear thought. It must be miserable.
Lying really sucks.
"we, I, seen him to "the point",I knew he was gone."
Was the point the point of dying? Did DeOrr and Jessica watch their son die? I think so.
The 911 calls.
2:22 GGP
2:26 VDK
2:28 JM
GGP, VDK and JM call within minutes of each other. The last call, the one we have all heard, was JM's, at 2:28 YET
PI Klein ends his timeline, specifically, at 2:26. (translated: whoever made the 911 call at 2:26 is the guilty(est).
Natalie - DeOrr' reaction was 'dead panic'
Isaac said ' No comment' when Nate Eaton asked (the recent interview) when he had least seen DeOrr. If he'd seen him playing, sleeping, toddling around why 'no comment'? It's not a difficult or incriminating question - unless he doesn't want to be, or be thought to have been, the last person to have seen DeOrr alive, which would place more suspicion on him.
https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/?rc=p
Q and A with PI Klein, Jan 30 - I haven't read it yet, just posting for info.
Some of the Q and A from the above Facebook:
just really want to know how long was his parents gone for when they went for a walk and also did they just wonder of without even asking grandfather to look after baby Deorr
2 · 31 January at 00:35
Klein Investigations and Consulting
Klein Investigations and Consulting Your question is under false pretence. The senario you lay out is myth
Is there anything reason to believe Vilt's adoption theory?
3 · 2 February at 08:52
Klein Investigations and Consulting
Klein Investigations and Consulting In our opinion - none.
9 · 2 February at 11:14
Do you think something happened to DeOrr before or after the time stamp on the store receipt?
2 · 2 February at 09:00
Klein Investigations and Consulting
Klein Investigations and Consulting This goes to timeline. I can say publicly that we have expanded the timeline down to 8 a.m. and between that hour and 2:26 p.
5 · 2 February at 11:15
Sorry if this has been asked. When was the last time someone OTHER than Reinwand, Walton, Mitchell and Kunz saw DeOrr?
7 · 2 February at 09:06
Yeah, and not vague "well, there might have been a child in store" sightings... When was the last time someone definitely saw him in
Idaho Falls? The extended family have never said when they last saw him. And did he seem healthy and happy the last time he was seen?
8 · 2 February at 09:46
Klein Investigations and Consulting
Klein Investigations and Consulting There are none.
4 · 2 February at 11:1
Have they checked Jessica and Deorr's home? Or interviewed their other children?
4 · 2 February at 09:08
Klein Investigations and Consulting
Klein Investigations and Consulting No comment.
DCM wrote:
Natalie,
*I also think that ggp actually seen him injured or dead.
*I think they screamed when they found him injured or dead. The is "no sound of him" no crying". Silence. And I think that was where Dad really said"we,I, seen him to the point, I knew he was gone".
I think some truth IS in here but jumbled due to lying stumbling over words. Lack of good clear thought. It must be miserable.
Lying really sucks.
Hey Jude wrote
"Natalie - DeOrr' reaction was 'dead panic'
IsaacIsaac said ' No comment' when Nate Eaton asked (the recent interview) when he had least seen DeOrr
Thanks for adding in these important details.
I think ggp saw him injured or dead also. Isaac I believe saw him right before he died and whatever he saw is too imcriminating to one or more of the others.
Mom's statement holds important clues I believe
--They SCREAMED his name (This brings to mind --was he far away? was he under water? --was he right in front of them and they are trying to jar him back to life by screaming?
--Re: her implication they were creaming his nicknames
(I dont believe they did scream his nicknames because she never says they did she says "we have nicknames for him)
"no sound of him, no crying"
(does this statement reveal he HAD been making sounds and crying because of whatever was happening before was no longer making sounds or crying)
I find this statement from Jessica ominous. I just feel something awful may have been done to him.
She is focusing on what was not there to be HEARD. I think it is very important that she does not say we couldnt SEE him which would be the expected if your child had "vanished". I feel they were looking right at him but he had ceased to be alive and was no longer making sounds.
she says "no sound of him" FIRST
Was he injured in the head, neck or throat region?
According to PI Klein, he believes that Deorr Jr. was 'on the mountain' and still is. Klein also says there are witnesses who saw Deorr Jr. 'on the mountain'. Why is he not saying campground? Search dogs never picked up a scent at the campground. I'm beginning to think that something happened to Deorr Jr. in the truck sometime Thursday night. It's possible he died in the truck and never left the truck until his body was buried somewhere "on the mountain" on Friday. Klein could not answer questions about how long JM and VDK went for a walk or whether GGF was watching him because it never happened. Just my opinion
AD
AD,
They give no details of any of DeOrr's behaviors, actions, moods, activities, foods eaten while at campground, so I tend to agree with your theory that he was never at the campground. Regardless, their words will still yield clues of what happened.
SCREAMING a child's name could occur if that child was locked inside the truck and parent unable to unlock door.
What if Dad killed him (accidental or not) inside the truck, drove to where mother was, exited truck, told her an accident had happened, father is standing outside truck talking to the mother. He's got the keys, doors are locked, windows up and he wont let Mom into the truck to discover DeOrr is not just unconscious but dead. This could cause a parent to SCREAM the child's name if the windows in truck are up, truck doirs are locked and she cant get in.
Could that be when Dad "hauled" away? Maybe DeOrr's body is not far away from the campground.
Natalie,
I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the evidence that has been found is from the truck. I can't recall Sheriff Bowerman or PI Klein mentioning much about the truck in their statements or interviews. They may have, and I missed it. Klein refused to comment on whether cadaver dogs found anything in or on the vehicles. This case has me crazy, and I've now re-focused my thoughts away from JM and VDK's account about what they said happened and when it happened. The Q & A session with Klein on Bella's Friends FB page really opened my eyes.
AD
AD,
This case is driving me crazy too. I haven't seen the Q and A. Something does click with the "SCREAMING" the name and truck--windows could have been rolled up and door locked with child in the car with Dad holding the keys. Dad "hauled" up the road for a reason, and obviously may have been driving around with DeOrr in the truck with him for who knows how long before he went back to campsite. I don't blame you for steering away from their account. Much of it seems to be fabricated. It is hard to work with the language when you need to focus on what they are avoiding saying and looking for leakage. Incredible that there are 4 people who are not talking.
Only thing sticking in my head tonight is Jessica saying "we have nicknames for him"...only a fleeting thought but I considered was there another person DeOrr was handed off to for any length of time who was told DeOrr's nicknames so that DeOrr would feel comfortable with that person? Probably nothing, just kind of combing through everything in my head seeing if I can figure anything out.
The "gentleman" with DeOrr at the store in Ledore...was this definitely DeOrr Sr.?
Can't help but think there is some missing piece of the puzzle here besides the obvious missing piece of what the hell happened to DeOrr?
So tonight I'm going to look at Jessica. I know she's a CNA, alright I also know that they need to be certified in CPR. So.. I'm assuming the baby was dead or too far gone to use any of her training. OK, but, did she try? Now, ggp is on oxygen and in her care. I know that open flames and oxygen tanks don't mix. He really should not have been up there in the first place. Anyways, did she try and bring him back?
I think I really wanted J to "not" be a co-conspirator in this. I feel that they are a team.
The time line has been nagging me. I need to know what time on the receipt.
I'm thinking they arrived back at camp earlier than 1:00. In Leadore until 11:30? Back to camp at 12:00. That's more like the time frame that works for me. 2 1/2 hrs before the first 911 call @2:22. I also think everyone sincronized their watches. Ggp I do believe he knows.
And, there is a mine shaft, 20 miles away? I'm not sure of my estimate. It's a little northeast of Timber Creek.
Tony Latham in his video said there's some cameras on the highway on both directions, on H93. "I'm sure they have been looked at."
Whatever happened was very serious and threw them into damage control. I think ggp and Isaac may be implemented because they having knowledge of this area, supplied a "place" to hide Jr.
I'm adding also that I feel Isaac and DeOrr might have been the two that did the burial. Jessica could have gone with, or stayed at camp w/ggp, cleaning up? IDK.
Isaac might be 'a little more' involved in this than I previously thought. Since he just likes helping folks. Really?! Just how much help did Isaac give? He could of showed D exactly where a good place would be and 'helping' the 'upset'father do this 'dirty'business.
No, he's not the responsible party but nonetheless he's concealed info.
Whats this about Isaac pulling A Gun on gramps two weeks prior? Anyone? And what exactly is the relationship between gramps and Isaac? Bizarre
GramdmaT I'm sure knows and she's keeping ggp sequestered from the public and making lame 'illness'excuses for ggp. So she knows. Damn, implementing all above parties. Any thoughts?
Correction on the mine info. There are two mines within I'm guessing 5 miles of the campground. Texas is the name of the northeast mine. Spring mtn is the name of the southeast mine. I have a strange feeling about this. LE needs to search them asap. Maybe Isaac was the who leaked inside info to Grace4Alya? Am I crazy? Probably huh? OK I'm stopping here. Good thing I have tomorrow off.
According to Klein Q & A, Deorrs "boots" were 3 sizes to big. That's alot! Thant small of boy wearing that large of boots, he would be "shuffling" not actually walking.
DCM,
Your mine shaft theory could be right. Have you heard the "Last Search before Winter" interview where the Dad says they are there to look for "small pockets" and "sections" where DeOrr may have gone. It strongly sounds like he is picturing either a nature-made or man-made structure in the earth where DeOrr may be. Also, Jessica said "if an animal got him he would no longer be there. Really makes you wonder.
Natalie,
Yes, small pockets. And what a thing to say, "if an animal got him he would no longer be there ". No he would of been consumed!
No more worries for them.
DCM,
Right! Also, it implies that perhaps he was not buried, but rather put in a mine or burrow or cave, somewhere an animal would be more likely to find him.
Regarding Jessica and her being a CNA, it makes me think of the medic bag that was supposedly stolen from a vehicle? They were asked to address it in the interview but did not. I can't piece together how that would fit into the whole thing but it still reminded me of it.
With Isaac pulling the gun on Gramps 2 weeks prior, do you mean the greatgrandpa that was on the camping trip? I cant guess what that was about but it sure does make me think they probably had a firearm with them camping which should maybe be factored into the whole thing.
I also agree with you...I believe all parties know including Grandma.
The 911 text sent to Grandma was either one of 2 things 1) Letting Grandma know that the deed had been done. or 2) A distress signal if there were some type of domestic violence for which Jessica and Grandma had worked out a signal if Jessica felt she (or DeOrr?) were in danger. However, I do believe mother and Grandma know what happened to DeOrr.
The simplest equation in this whole matter would be that DeOrr had been being abused by multiple people and that the decision was made "to get rid of him" to get rid of signs of abuse because one or more feared they were going to be in trouble. Am I convinced of that? No. However, I am convinced we are dealing with something very sinister.
The the three sizes too big cowboy boots...I just can't even comprehend why they would have put those boots on him.
Shoes/Walking/Tripping are sensitive to these people for some reason.
The "nicknames": I do agree with Peter...the Mom probably mentioned how they "have nicknames for him" that they were screaming to make the audience feel "see I'm a good loving Mom I have nicknames for him"...but it might be worth going deeper...why did "nicknames" come into her head? What were the nicknames? It reminds me of when someone posts a "missing dog" ad and they will write "His name is Mittens but he responds to the name "Moo-moo" or something like that. There is some kind of parallel with an ad for a missing animals moreso than person. It is like she is mimicking (maybe unconsciously) what she has seen in missing animals ads. Why would she do that?
There is a missing piece in this whole thing.
Did they ever make fliers to help find him with his picture and description, etc?
Anyway, just my thoughts...
The window busted out of the car and medic bag stolen...it makes me wonder was there another individual involved along with them in the disappearance? They knew there was a medic bag in his car? So strange. There is some missing piece.
So, here's what we know as fact. Deorr Jr. is missing, there is forensic evidence that he is deceased, and four people who were there are being 'less than truthful'. Nine poly's were given to the parents and four different statements given by GGF. We don't know what account they gave during this time. Sheriff Bowerman considers IR to be the most consistent of the four but Klein doesn't agree. As Klein said, 'It depends on which statement you want to believe'. IR failed the same two questions on the poly as VDK and JM. PI Klein stated that the timeline (8:00am to 2:26pm) changes on a daily basis with each new witness. So we continue to go around in circles and no matter what is said by whom, IMO, it all comes back to "The Truck".
AD
AD,
Re: What you are saying about "the truck" being pivotal and probably where DeOrr died, I think it was after I initially read your posts yesterday, it occurred to me the possible parallels with the Dylan Redwine case where Mark concocted a story of Dylan having gone missing after Mark checked on him "sleeping" in Mark's house. Many here felt Dylan was actually killed in Mark's truck after they stopped at McDonald's. The only real differences are that Dylan was a teenager and DeOrr was a 2 year old and that in that case there was one witness (Mark) and in this case we are talking about probably 5 "witnesses" (if we count Grandma). Most people think that Mark exploded in anger at Dylan. But happened here with DeOrr? It's so horrible that he was so tiny and innocent and at the mercy of these awful people.
Do you have any theory of what may have happened in the truck?
Klein: 'There are now five groups who know the true story: LE, FBI, USDOJ Prosecutors, two County Prosecutors (Lemhi and Bonneville) and our firm. Anything else is just rumor and hearsay. When the time comes, you will all hear the story'.
AD
Natalie, Dylan Redwine, another heartbreaking case. I keep checking for new developments on Dylan's case. I don't have any theories re: the truck, but as Peter said, this is a very sensitive issue with VDK, having to repeat it over and over. Jessica mentioned a rumor about someone seeing a black truck and a crying child in the first interview. VDK said, 'That's a problem. I drive a black truck.' Was this put out to confuse the public about places his truck and the other truck went and where they were and were not seen? PI Klein is very vague about Thursday evening. He will confirm that some/all of the four went to the Silver Dollar Bar and Restaurant Thursday night. Whether Deorr Jr. was with them, he will not comment.
AD,
You wrote
"Jessica mentioned a rumor about someone seeing a black truck and a crying child in the first interview. VDK said, 'That's a problem. I drive a black truck.' Was this put out to confuse the public about places his truck and the other truck went and where they were and were not seen?"
Good question. Personally, from the linguistics of Jessica's statement, I get the feeling that it was NOT the Dad in that truck. It's like Jessica is trying to confuse by essentially suggesting oh that lead is irrelevant bc he drives a black truck but it was earlier in that day (when it actually wasn;t the Dad at all). Keep in mind she calls the driver of the truck "a gentleman who was seen" with a child matching DeOrr's description. To me, her use of the word "gentleman" indicates that the person she is referring to is not someone close to her like her husband, it's someone distanced from her...not "a guy", but "a gentleman".
In my opinion, this is bad. Anyone rumored to have been seen with DeOrr regardless of if she would truly to have believed it was her husband should NOT be referred to as a "gentleman". It's the unconscious mind leaking out that this person is not someone close to her IMO.
There is always the possibility he was give to another person, not for adoption but for nefarious purposes. The FBI should be all over this case, because what if some creep has him hidden somewhere? Probably unlikely but still...everytime I look at a case on here certain phrases will just stick in my mind as kind of "key phrases" that have a lot of importance. I can't really explain why. But one of them in this case is when Jessica said "We have nicknames for him". It just makes me think did they give him to someone else and told the other person his nicknames or were saying his nicknames to him to get him to go with the other person? Like if his nickname is for example "Dee" were they saying "Dee, it's OK, he's a nice man. He's going to take you fishing" or whatever??? The "nickname" thing could be nothing but just a thought...
Natalie, the FBI is on this case. Read my post from 2/5 @ 10:47pm.
AD
AD,
Right on! Perfect summary.
I'm going with Klein on the IR statements. Doesn't surprise me at all that he failed the same questions. It fits. So 8:00am-2:26 huh? I do feel the window was much larger then I previously thought. That fits too. The truck IS a mystery. When D: up and around the camp and he wasn't there, that's when I got in my 'pick up truck' and drove down the road.. who says pick up truck? I thought it was odd. Anyway that vehicle is important to me for two main reasons. Djr could of died in there and/or it is used to transport his little body. There and that's it.
DCM, that darn truck!; like the elephant in the room. I believe Klein is backtracking the timeline, according to new witness statements, so who knows were it will lead to. He did say that Thursday evening is now 'in the timeline', on the Q & A session he gave on Bella's Friends FB page on 2/2/16.
AD
Re: Isaac and the gun. Frank Vilt told me he went to speak with Isaac and Bob Walton because he had received a tip from someone named Taz Anderson who said Isaac told her he knew where the body was. When I relayed this info to Trina she was upset that he was speaking to her father with out her. After she spoke with Frank he told her he had to go find Isaac because he had received a tip that Isaac was going to shoot Bob. I did not tell Trina Frank's excuse to me (about the body) until she had given me her excuse about the gun. Frank further relayed to me that he was putting up a reward. After he did that the tip came in about the staring man. Frank gave me the time the tip came in. I ran a chart and told frank the tipsters were lying. He said he knew that neither Isaac nor Bob was capable of injuring the baby. This was on September 13. On September 25 Frank wrote the letter to the parents saying they had lied to him and he didn't want to work with them.
Grace4Ayla said...
Re: Isaac and the gun. Frank Vilt told me he went to speak with Isaac and Bob Walton because he had received a tip from someone named Taz Anderson who said Isaac told her he knew where the body was. When I relayed this info to Trina she was upset that he was speaking to her father with out her. After she spoke with Frank he told her he had to go find Isaac because he had received a tip that Isaac was going to shoot Bob. I did not tell Trina Frank's excuse to me (about the body) until she had given me her excuse about the gun. Frank further relayed to me that he was putting up a reward. After he did that the tip came in about the staring man. Frank gave me the time the tip came in. I ran a chart and told frank the tipsters were lying. He said he knew that neither Isaac nor Bob was capable of injuring the baby. This was on September 13. On September 25 Frank wrote the letter to the parents saying they had lied to him and he didn't want to work with them"
*********************************
I must've missed something? When did a gun come into the equation?
Lynda, that's what Trina told me. For the record I was working with the family and quit when I realized either Frank or the family was lying to me. I don't charge for services. Astrology tells me he is 10 miles away to the northwest between Devil's Lake and Blue Jay mine, more or less. He is in a hole or bottom of a mine shaft in standing water. I also think he died in a car or because of one.
I can’t trust anything Nate Eaton says, that was an embarrassingly unprofessional interview of Isaac Reinwand on his part (from transcript to websleuths linked on prior page). He “asked-and-answered” spoon fed Reinwand the timeline, to which Reinwand would continually reply the likes of:
Reinwand: Yep.
And so forth.
Interesting things (that may be repeats from prior discussion): Reinwand does ask Eaton, “have you ever talked to the grandfather yet”, and:
“As far as I know he just disappeared is all…”
So?
What does Reinwand NOT know? Is this an attempt to implicate Grandpa-friend?
The “meth lab” idea is interesting but from what Breaking Bad has taught me, it doesn’t really seem possible to do it with the likes of a weeny hot plate or frying pan over a campfire so…? unless there’s some kind of proof they had an actual transportable lab or large set of equipment out there that they could break down and/or hide in minutes, I’m saying “no” to that idea.
Discussion about why a child would have shoes/boots too big for them, can be laid at the foot of “The child insisted”; though to mix bruited-about theories, if you were going to hand off/adopt out your child to a stranger, you’d probably dress them for a quick, not laborious and struggle filled, handoff, which would mean shoes that fit.
Also, unless prior abuse has been reported, I would call foul on any surprise last-minute hatred either of the parents, at minimum, might have taken about DeOrr Jr. insisting on being carried (my thought is, at that point you’re used to navigating a toddler and wouldn’t fly off the handle for repeat behavior you haven’t grumbled about nor disciplined for in the past. Toddlers like and want to walk, or try to, and sometimes resist the carrying in favor of walking.
“Narrow [it] down”? Is there a spot where the creek, perhaps, narrows?
I, seen him to the point, I knew he was gone".
“Point of death” is a phrase, just saying (google it). Or “the point s/he stopped breathing”, which rolls off the tongue and therefore mind more naturally, I think.
Also important to keep in mind, is whatever was going on with DeOrr, has to be run through the lens of Grandpa on the camping trip. What would you want to do or not do premeditatedly (assuming premeditation, which is not necessarily the case), with an elderly sick man lugging an oxygen tank along?
Grace4Alya,
Thank you for posting that explanation for us. I can't express to you how I appreciate the information. So, did I get it right? Frank received some info about the body. He makes up an excuse, about IR shooting BW so to talk to BW. So there was not a true threat on BW's life? It was just an excuse? And after Frank talks to her, Trina, then you did and she tells you about the gun and you spill the beans about the body? So Frank was playing them? Good. I hope he was. Way to go Frank. Bringing this baby out of those mountains is all I really care about as we all feel. How could they throw this sweet adorable boy out like trash? They dishonored him disrespected him and his little short life. They owe him and him alone an apology. Their lies don't hurt me they only hurt them.
Life is full of choices. In that split second they decided we're going to handle this ourselves they made the wrong choice. Freakin punks. I hope they are charged with negligent homicide and unlike the Wayment Judge who gave Paul 30 days I hope they receive 30yrs! For all the chaos they've caused this community. I feel ' 0' sympathy for them. Since it's a federal case I'm assuming it'll go to a higher court. Good. I'd tell VDK Now you can stay in this small enclosed area' where you will no longer have the freedom you lied for. (prison)
If you tell the truth you don't have to have a good memory.
He's not a man, he's a coward.
Without proof what is there?
I wonder if and what the carseat reveals. Klein has said they don't believe he was burned. (Bella's page)
If IR wasn't involved wouldn't you be pointing fingers at him. But.. if IR was involved you would cover for him not even saying his name
one lousy time. That's the least you could do for your 'new best friend'.
It's called improper deposition of a human body. I wonder how many years you get for that.
I think at 2:26 the stage had been and they were ready for LE to arrive. All that was left for them to do was rehearsal.
Lynda, that's what Trina told me. For the record I was working with the family and quit when I realized either Frank or the family was lying to me. I don't charge for services. Astrology tells me he is 10 miles away to the northwest between Devil's Lake and Blue Jay mine, more or less. He is in a hole or bottom of a mine shaft in standing water. I also think he died in a car or because of one.
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/missing-boys-aunt-just-please-bring-him-home/30222983/
"We turned over rocks, we crawled in things that we didn't even think he would fit in just to say we checked," Tanisha Kunz, DeOrr's aunt, said.
This "we" she talks about must be pretty dang small to crawl inside things Deorr wouldn't even fit in just to say...
The mother gave a loving description of what little DeOrr was like which you don't usually find with a parent who is involved with a death cover-up. I can't find the description but when I read it, it struck me that although I think she knows what happened to DeOrr it is doubtful she is involved in a death cover-up.
There is a lack of violence in the father's language, there are things that could refer to a death like "dead panic" "just shock" "saw him to the point I knew he was gone".
Only thing I can think of with the oversized cowboy boots, sometimes parents will dress their kid in a costume if they are going to see something for which the costume would be appropriate or make the event more fun. Is there any chance DeOrr loved cowboys or dressing as a cowboy and they told him that he was going to wear the boots because he was going to get to meet a "cowboy" or something like that? It's so statistically unlikely, but some part of me still wonders if they did pass him off to another person, male, the guy in the truck who bought him candy?
I do think it is odd as someone pointed out that DeOrr said he jumped in his "pick up truck". I think it is unnatural to say it that way and makes you question if at some point he was driving or inside of another truck?
Don't know...just trying to think out loud...
Grace4Ayla said...
Lynda, that's what Trina told me. For the record I was working with the family and quit when I realized either Frank or the family was lying to me. I don't charge for services. Astrology tells me he is 10 miles away to the northwest between Devil's Lake and Blue Jay mine, more or less. He is in a hole or bottom of a mine shaft in standing water. I also think he died in a car or because of one.
February 6, 2016 at 10:31 AM
_________________________________
I did miss something. So you were working with both Frank and the family coming in with the astrological aspect? What was the point of Frank lying and what did you think he was lying about? Why would the family work with you if you believe that it is an accidental/negligent death? I don't understand why family is "working" trying to find baby when they know where he is and unless somebody else falls into the mine/well baby may be in, he will never be found? What are your feelings about Peter's analysis?
Natalie
Bowerman said that there was no "old man staring at him in store", the clerk in the store even said she had no recollection of them in the store that day. Then Dad deorr went in and badgered her until she said, ok..i remember you but then she would NOT say that she 100% saw a child and even if she did, she couldn't tell if it was a boy or girl. According to both Bowerman and Klein, there is no one that can/or they believe can 100% identify and swear he was seen that day tho Klein says he still thinks 99.9% sure he was there at campground. Bowerman also said everything else was unsubstantiated rumors. The creepy guy, the "black truck" sighting, he said the parents can't even agree or tell the same story on who made breakfast. This child was not handed off, he died, and they hid the body IMO
RE:The cremains that were scattered during the search for DeOrr.
There is a crematorium in Leadore. That's amazing for a little town of 100 or so people.
The crematorium is operated by Dep.Penner, I think. He's the one under Bowerman. He was up there during the search. Is it possible he scattered (dumped) the cremains? The Leadore Crematorium provides a service for scattering ashes. It would have been a massive blunder by LE if it was him. If it was not him, it's a massive coincidence.
Could LE be covering for him by saying that it was a mysterious unnamed couple, ( who failed to notice that Timber Creek was teeming with SAR, police, dogs, ATVs, planes, drones and volunteer searchers) ? How could they NOT notice?
I wonder why the store sighting is causing such confusion.
JM says, " it was one of the ladies who work in the store. She said she saw a gentleman with a little blond boy matching our description of our son....filthy, ....bawling...black truck ..... Etc"
How difficult would it be to confirm or deny that sighting from "one of the ladies". Why is it such a mystery?
As others have asked, why wouldn't you think a sighting of your son on Friday with a man in a black truck would be vital clue about the kidnapper.
Why would DK insist it was him..just earlier?
Anon @ 11:07 The cremains have nothing to do with Deorr. The couple was from out of town and were unaware there was a child missing. They have been vetted and cleared per LE/Boweman.
Anon @ 11:22 The store sighting is confusing because of the rumors running rampant and the parents lying! Bowerman stated that they did have a receipt time/date stamped. When he interviewed the clerk, she stated she did not remember them in there AT ALL. Then Daddy deorr went into the store and badgered the clerk, got in her face, and then she said she "remembered him" and if he had a kid with him she didn't know or couldn't say whether it was a boy or a girl.
The "gentleman" in the truck with the filthy child is a lie/rumor/untruth/ whatever you want to call it.
All this is per Bowerman.
Lynda,
Ok, I think I understand, but why, if Dad DeOrr has the receipt time-stamped that he was there was he so keen on badgering the lady to say that he was there? I believe he has the receipt, but wouldn't the scenario of him badgering the lady to say it was him she saw lend itself to him either trying to establish it as an alibi that he was there and not somewhere else or that Dad DeOrr is concerned that someone else actually was spotted there at some point? It popped into my head briefly yesterday that it may have been Isaac who was there with DeOrr--he could have easily handed the parents the receipt.
I also tend to think as you do that DeOrr died and they hid the body. I just am thinking of all possibilities and trying to go through the language...thinking...just considering that there is no violence in Dad's language...even Justin DiPietro "kicked" in the baby gate...I am a believer that true psychopaths can be quite skilled in lying at times...the father is very deceptive for sure...
I've been having real doubt that Deorr did anything and jessica might actually be responsible and he is covering for her. Taking care of everything. He never lets her speak because he doesn't want her to incriminate herself. SHE is the one to lose everything not him...mainly her other kids. I just don't know
Thanks Lynda,
I didn't say I think the cremains have anything to do with DeOrr. I don't.
I think that it's weird that a little town of around 100 people, has a crematorium owned and operated by a member of Leadore LE. The crematorium offers a scattering service. Most of LE was up the mountain searching for DeOrr, and it may have occurred to this individual that the mountain was a perfect place to "dump" the cremains in his capacity of crematorium operator, while searching for DeOrr in his capacity of LEO. He didn't know it was a crime scene, he thought it was a missing little boy. It may only have been poor judgement and poor timing but it would be a public relations nightmare, I would think. Who knows what a defense lawyer could do with it. If it's true, I'm not surprised LE.is playing it down.
It was the use of the word "dump" by Bowerman himself that started me speculating that it might have been one of his own officers ( the one who works in a crematorium) who put the ashes in the reservoir. People do not "dump" cremains. They scatter ashes.
There have been different stories about this unnamed couple. In one of the earlier reports, Bowerman said it was "an individual" singular. Not a couple.
Again, I don't think its nefarious. Just interesting.
Lynda, I knew a family member online so when I heard the baby was missing I offered to help. The family (Trina) gave me birth times and timestamps from calls and texts. When Frank came along I called the tip line, told him who I was and offered to help if I could. Frank even drove down from Idaho to meet me.
Things got strange when the staring man tip came in. Frank said they were from Texas and gave me the time the call came in. Which was the same day the reward was announced. I did a chart and told Frank that I felt the couple were lying and working with either the parents or Isaac in order to put le focus elsewhere. Frank said he had full confidence in this couple. He said Deorr Sr had mentioned the black jeep even before Jessica remembered the staring man and before the tip. This was not what he had told me earlier. H e had said that the couple first mentioned the jeep which jogged Deorr Sr's memory. Since these two conversations had been just a few hours apart, I was uneasy about the story change. I called Trina and told her about it. I said it seemed funny that he had gone from thinking Isaac was involved to suddenly believing in this couple after only speaking with Isaac and Bob once the day before, and only speaking with this couple over the phone right after announcing the reward.
Trina did not know about Frank's visit with Isaac and Bob. I gave her the information Frank had given me which was an old girlfriend of isaac's had called the tip line and reported that Isaac told her he knew where the body was. When Trina called me back she was livid. She said that Frank had told her he didn't have time to call her and ask her permission to interview Bob because he had received a tip on his hotline that Isaac was planning to shoot Bob during the fishing trip where Frank had tracked them down.
At that point I felt law enforcement needed to know about all these tips coming in because if either tale were true they would have stepped in to interview Isaac, not leave it to Frank. After I did so the sheriff made the media statement that tips were to be called into LE first. Frank texted me and told me I needed spiritual help because I had too much faith in the astrology (where have I heard that before?) and asked me not to contact him again. This happened on September 13, 2015. Recently Frank released a memo he had written Jessica and Deorr Sr on September 25 (IIRC) accusing them of lying to him.
To answer your question about Peter's take on this case, I feel the same about this case as I do about the Ayla Reynolds case. The child was injured or died during a felony act. Even if the death was accidental, they parents couldn't report due to the other activities going on. If someone dies during the commission of a felony, it's automatically a felony murder charge, even if accidentally. If the Idaho four were up there making meth, let's just say for arguments sake, and Deorr Jr was left in the truck and died, Isaac and Bob would be on the hook as well. Pretty good incentive to keep their mouths shut or lie to law enforcement.
Grace said
"Ok, I think I understand, but why, if Dad DeOrr has the receipt time-stamped that he was there was he so keen on badgering the lady to say that he was there? I believe he has the receipt, but wouldn't the scenario of him badgering the lady to say it was him she saw lend itself to him either trying to establish it as an alibi that he was there and not somewhere else or that Dad DeOrr is concerned that someone else actually was spotted there at some point?"
I think the point of Daddy badgering her was to get her to say that he was there with a CHILD, namely Deorr jr. IIRC Bowerman said on the websleuths interview that they did have the receipt (which I guess could have been anyones) but the clerk didn't remember them. Daddy goes in and runs his mouth and clerk says, "I remember you now" Then daddy tries to convince her he was there with a toddler which she did not remember. Bowerman than said that clerk basically said okay, you had a toddler but when pressed by LE she could not even say whether it was a boy or girl. So that opens up the whole timeline that baby was already dead and dad was establishing alibi..whew!
As for the other stuff...thank you for clarifying. Is something in the water in Idaho Falls? This sounds like such a twisted, half-baked, deception filled place that it borders on the unbelievable. I didn't like Vilt from the time I saw his interview and there's a couple of questionable things in his past also. I think he wanted his bit of 15 minute fame and then dropped it. Sounds like he used you also and it makes perfect sense that the call from the tip line regarding the old man staring was a lie. Perfect for parents. The more you muddy the water, the more you can hide cuz as you know, people go off on their tangents and believe that if you say it enough, it becomes the truth. I'm not sure Trina herself is completely honest/forthright either. I hope when the weather clears someone will check out where you think baby is!
Lynda,
That is interesting you think that the Mom did it and the Dad is covering, and that is why he doesnt want her saying much.
Re: The cremains. That is actually extremely freaky that a member of LE operates a crematorium in a town of 100. If LE cant get it straight whether it was an individual or couple who dumped the cremains, I wouldnt be so quick to brush it off.
The story the family tells is that the couple were from Oregon, and they were initially stopped by LE from "depositing" (I can't figure out which words sounds more disrespectful, "dumping" or "cremains") the ashes so they decided to say they would help with the search. Supposedly they then confessed to Deorr Sr their plans and he tried to stop them so they ended up just "dumping" them in the reservoir.
I've seen other versions on the internet, but this was the original story I got from a family member.
Grace4Ayla,
Wow, I don't know what to make of that. The couple had traveled there all the way from Oregon to dump cremains. I remember the police captain saying in an interview that it was an individual who was dumping the cremains because the reservoir was the individual's favorite spot. So peculiar the whole thing is.
What do you think happened to DeOrr? Do you have any theories about who killed him?
Lynda,
Thanks for info on the lady in the store regarding it being based around DeOrr's insistence he was seen with a child. Hmmmm. So the parents interjected that story to get the alibi in about 'the gentleman who was seen with a boy who was matching the description of our son, filthy just bawling, and the guy bought him candy (paraphrased)'... It's a sloppy alibi that he has the receipt but must have gone in there by himself to make the purchase...very sloppy alibi...it would make one think the killing was premeditated...but certainly would open up the time frame that little DeOrr must have disappeared many hours earlier than they initially said. I'm thinking probably shortly before he arrived at the store making such a sloppy effort to have an alibi. I think the Dad killed him.
It is very strange how the sloppy alibi they came up with includes the description of DeOrr "filthy and just bawling" with the Dad. Could this be Jessica's way of subtly leaking out some type of incrimination towards the Dad? Why would she describe DeOrr as being in a pathetic state "filthy and just bawling" while with the Dad? Especially if it is a constructed alibi which it seems to be? Is she leaking out what the Dad did to DeOrr or what happened to DeOrr if his death was in fact accidental? Also she says that the "gentleman" who she states was DeOrr Sr., was "buying him candy". Can we ignore the fact that this is the stereotypical thing a pedophile is known to do is lure kids with candy or give them candy? I am just trying to figure out what this leakage is from Jessica. I don't like what I feel she is leaking about the Dad.
sorry it should say above that the sloppy alibi would make one think that the killing was NOT premeditated
Ok, just posting a train of thought...they stopped in Leadore Thursday night at a bar and grill to drink, so JM stayed in the car with Deorr Jr. JM then texts Trina at 9:38pm to say they had reached the campsite. The "original" story was that the cashier thought she saw Deorr Jr on Friday evening having a fit, and that was about 6pm. Also at some point in the evening they purchased the diesel fuel. Why couldn't Jessica take Deorr into the bar? Most bars that serve food (in the states I have lived) have a cordoned off section for families, then stop allowing minors in after around 10 pm.
What if they got into town around 6 pm, Deorr is throwing a fit in the truck, one of them loses their head and accidentally killed him. They got to the bar to drink and figure out what to do, go get the fuel, take Deorr to his (what they thought) final resting place, texted mom that it was done (turning off phone to hide pings). Isaac and Grampa had to help because of whatever "business" they were conducting, JM and Deorr Sr had something over their heads forcing them to comply.
Thoughts?
Natalie...I think maybe the old man in the store with filthy baby was to "build" their hypothesis that he was kidnapped. Point people in that direction.
Grace...to muddy the waters even further...that "Taz Anderson" that Frank got the tip from about Isaac knowing where the body was. She used to date Isaac and she is also a friend of Rebecca, the woman that owns the Silver Dollar...the RSO who prostituted her step-daughters out as the story goes. I didn't know if you knew who Taz was.
lynda, thanks I knew that. Wasn't she also a friend of Vernal's as well?
Grace..I think so.
Natalie...I don't necessarily think that mom did it and dad is covering for her but it's a possibility that no one seems to have entertained. I'm not sure WHY she lost her other 2 children but I think the story saying it was just "better" and she was doing it for them is a lie by the family. So many players here. Peter has already said Deorr has guilty knowledge but Jessica has said so little, tho we do have her 911 call. I'm going to have to go look that up
SB: "Basically, we’re just asking anybody that has firsthand knowledge of conversations that they either overheard or observed—some sort of dialogue between the parents and the infant that seemed unusual, please contact us with the information."
Why the change of language from child to 'infant'?
Lynda, I understand whay you are saying about the guy/child spotted in store story but in interview they seem to be attempting to clarify that the guy was DeOrr and the child was baby DeOrr but that it was earlier in the day. If Jessica fabricated the story which it seems she did and cast the Dad as the actual guy who was there in the story, we should maybe all look at the description of baby DeOrr "filthy, just bawling" and the "gentleman" buying candy as potentially containing some kind of leakage...like, the truth of some aspect of what happened leaking out. I feel these words do incrimimate DeOrr Sr almost like she KNOWS what he did to baby DeOrr, and she is leaking out a watered-down version which casts DeOrr as neglectful (baby is "filthy and just bawling"...buying him candy in this type of nefarious scenario where there is a missing child presumed dead could be leaking out that DeOrr Sr is manipulative and possibly uses some type of bribery to "shut people up". Will write more later when I get freed up....
Natalie, I think you are spot on.
Natalie, can you say "Justin DiPietro"? Same tactics as Vernal. Disgusting representations of manhood. Just saying.
http://lemhicountyidaho.org/minutes/commin_07_27_2015.doc
I N THE MATTER OF TITLE III FUNDS
The Board received a request for reimbursement to the Leadore EMT’s to replace a medical bag that was stolen during a Search and Rescue Operation. The Clerk was instructed to publish the request and comments will be accepted until September 28, 2015.
http://lemhicountyidaho.org/minutes/commin_09_28_2015.doc
I N THE MATTER OF TITLE III FUNDS
The Board reviewed the request submitted by the Leadore EMT’s to be reimbursed $450.00 to replace a medical bag stole during a Search and Rescue Operation and noted for the record that no comments were received pursuant to the publication of the Notice of Intent for Expenditure of Title III monies. Ken Miner moved and Rick Snyder seconded to approve the request.
http://lemhicountyidaho.org/minutes/commin_10_26_2015.pdf
IN THE MATTER OF TITLE III FUNDS
The Board reviewed the request submitted by the Salmon Search and Rescue for reimbursement of $14,800.00 for man hours spent during a Search Operation and noted for the record that no comments were received pursuant to the publication of the Notice of Intent for Expenditure of Title III monies. Ken Miner moved and John Jacovac seconded to approve the request.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/pts/countyfunds
Title III funds may be used only to be used to: reimburse a participating county for search and rescue and other emergency services paid for by the county and performed on national forests after the date on which the use was approved as required in the Act,
Note: There are two other uses for Title III funding as listed but aren't applicable here.
Feds trump when charges are filed.
Grace,
I see a lot of Justin DiPietro in Vernal...also I see elements of Mark Redwine...minus the poor me alcoholic routine. But Justin and Vernal both whitewash their language...making sure not to directly incriminate themselves...Mark is a complete liar but possibly from alcoholic brain damage, gets tripped up during his lies.
I'm a grandma wrote
SB: "Basically, we’re just asking anybody that has firsthand knowledge of conversations that they either overheard or observed—some sort of dialogue between the parents and the infant that seemed unusual, please contact us with the information."
Why the change of language from child to 'infant'?
This is interesting to me, because I have mentally pictured them saying odd things to baby DeOrr like telling him he was going to go meet someone very nice, and lying to him about who he was meeting, etc before handing him off to another person.
Things from their language that suggest this as a possibility:
Jessica speaking of DeOrr's "nicknames" (Did they tell the other person his nicknames?)
"Cowboy boots"....why was he wearing them? Did they tell him he was going to see a "cowboy"?
Regardless, I feel they did something very strange to him and it has always been in my mind that they told him something odd to get him to do what they wanted.
Change of language from child to "infant"...This could happen if the person speaking was picturing him being handed off to another person becoming the other person's "infant" if in fact he is suspecting some type of hand-off, underground "adoption".
Grace,
Oh and absolutely, the ability of Justin to keep 3 others (I count Phoebe) quiet bears a real resemblance to Vernal's ability to keep his 3 quiet.
Just uncanny.
Natalie @ 1:00 p.m. -- Something that sticks with me about the 'filthy, bawling' story is that VDK claims that the gentleman cannot be him because HE was with S&R until just before 5 (IIRC). Aside from the weird rejection of a possible sighting of their missing son, he makes it about himself, rather than saying what he should have said: that it couldn't have been 'US' (i.e., him and DKJ or all three of them) because the boy had already been missing for hours. What does this mean? I know that Jessica claimed that the sighting was them from their earlier visit and that the witness must have been mistaken. VDK says they went into town 'as a family,' but in the denial of the black truck/bawling child incident, VDK also chooses not to say that Jessica was with them, even though the witness likely should have seen her, as well.
To add to the 911 calls confusion:
ima.grandma said...
"It's been stated three 911 calls were made: 14:22 14:26 and 14:28"
I have also seen these times in many places.
Klein Investigations and Consulting: "There were three calls made to 911. First, Vernal. Second, Jessica. Third, the grandfather".
This quote is from Feb 2 when PI Klein answered questions on Bella's Friends: Unidentified and Missing Children facebook page. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1688440941411392&id=1625921954329958&refid=52
Bowerman said that Jessica's 911 call stated that they're son was missing and he went missing about a hour ago. OK. That was at 2:36. Dad making his statement says they searched for about 20 min and then he jumps in the truck and makes his 911 call. So the baby, according to J disappeared at 1:35? An hour. The Dad says 20 min. Right there the lying started.
So what if D had accidentally backed over his son he thought ggp had him and ggp (having short term memory loss) thought he was with dad. Maybe he had been moving the truck or maybe J and him were going for a little drive to check out the area. Whatever. Maybe they weren't walking at all.
He said he's a mover and a goer. Yes children run after their parents. Accidents happen. Kids get behind cars. Usually in driveways, hard cement. The dirt floor probably wouldn't of mattered since he was so small.
Benjamin Thompson was 2 yrs old when his dad was backing out of the driveway. He checked the mirrors but didn't see the boy who darted out. In a split second he was gone. That's what the grandmother stated. September 10th 2012. 50 such accidents happen each week in the US. Most are children between 1-2 yrs old.
But why the cover-up?
Anon @ 2:38,
Exactly! Great points, and you articulated the conundrum of the denial of "the gentleman and bawling baby" sighting perfectly.
The denial is so flawed and hinky I dont think the sighting should be discredited. They try to discredit the sighting yet it is very sensitive to them. They do not convincingly discredit the sighting.
Later I will watch the parent interview to try to pick up on anything from the language...
DCM, the cover up happens because of what they were doing when the accident happened. Deorr may have been alive, but they would only have minutes to hide what they were doing then call 911. If what they were doing was illegal and unable to be concealed that quickly, the child dies. Then the parents have to explain a death, and a gap in why it wasn't reported, and they are even more frightened. Since police usually don't arrive until you call them, some degenerates decide to hide the evidence of the illegal activity and the body, and blame the whole thing on a "boogeyman". They think they will be smarter than police and the general public. It's pathetic.
The order of the 911 calls is:
2:22 - GGP
2:26 - VDK
2:28 - Jessica
It is significant that Klein ends his timeline at 2:26. VDK's call. I think we will discover that VDK is the principal suspect, hence the timeline ending with his call. Jessica is the one talking to police. Who knows? She may be doing so for immunity. I think we will also discover that the 8:00am start to the timeline, will be because of a phone call made by VDK at that time. The timeline will be "bookended" by calls made by VDK to present a neat package to the jury.
The stop at the Silver Dollar on Thursday night, was ONLY IR and GGP, that is why Klein said it did not form part of the prosecutorial case. Since nobody can remember who cooked breakfast and who took a fishing pole to the creek, I think it is safe to assume that ONLY IR and GGP were at the campground, Thurs night and Friday morning.
I do not find it beyond the realms of possibility that VDK lied to JM about a kidnapping and convinced her to go along with his version of events, for little DeOrr's sake. I think it's possible she was duped by VDK and that the truth dawned slowly and painfully on her, in the days subsequent to Deorr's disappearance. Remember the way JM looked at VDK in the first interview, 3 days after little DeOrr disappeared? Suspicious, angry, and continually looking at Nate with that "Does this sound believable?" look.
It is really weird that neither Klein, Penner, nor Bowerman will provide any information about who, aside from the POI, was the last person to see DeOrr. It doesn't make sense. Someone must have seen him. What about the 4th of July celebrations? (6 days before DeOrr went missing) That's usually a big deal,right? Any photos of him watching fireworks etc? How long has little Deorr really been missing?
I am getting more and more hinky that Jessica is the one that caused the harm and/or forced the "cover-up".
I would think the only reason you would cover up an accident like backing over him was because you were either drunk or high when you did it. If you called 911 right away, even if it took them an hour to get there, you would still be drunk or high. That's the only reason I can think of. Yes, all of the 911 calls would probably yield so much information!
If Jessica, DeOrr of anyone else backed over little DeOrr, it happened elsewhere. Such an accident leaves blood, body fluids, etc. on both the truck and the ground. According to the Sheriff, there is no evidence to support that at the campsite. That doesn't rule out their home in Idaho Falls or any stop along the way on the trip though. I may have missed it, but I haven't seen any reports on their home and property being searched in Idaho Falls.
I found it interesting that Grandpa was 911 call #3. Why would Grandpa call if he was there with Jessica at the campsite when she called? If he wasn't there when she made the call, then where was he? By that point, Jessica had gotten through-just a few minutes later, the Dispatcher asked if her husband was calling on another line (heard on the call)? So, why would Grandpa call at all? Where was Grandpa when he placed the call? His call wasn't released; it wasn't even publicly disclosed until after Sheriff Bowerman announced the parents were suspects. I wonder what Grandpa's cell phone useage looks like. So, who is Jessica talking to in the background of her 911 call?
I just cannot figure out Isaac. Around September 16th 2015, the PI says that JM and DK left Djr with Isaac and GGP in the morning and GGP at some point went inside his camper and "may have been distracted". That doesn't match what the Sheriff said. If Djr went missing in the morning, what about his trip to the store with the P's "as a family" in the afternoon?
On July 28th East Idaho News spoke with IR briefly outside his home. IR AGREED when Nate asked if Djr was with him and GGP before he went missing. When Nate asked what happened to him?
"He just disappeared". IR said.
He must be a POI both to LE and the FBI? And not ruled out?
Fools-I thought GGP's call was the 2:22pm call? Maybe I'm wrong. It sounds like J's phone is cutting out. IDK.
Maybe the calls from 911 from the 3 is indicative that the 3 "staged" the search...like instead of it happening naturally that they were all searching, and then communicated with each other that they could not find him...they said "OK, let's pretend we're searching and then call 911...so they dispersed in different directions and all made individual 911 calls...this could even explain DeOrr's Sr. "hauling" up the road and then calling. Maybe it was just due to the search being "staged". I am starting to think that that is what happened. And that type of scenario might lend itself to the actual disappearance of baby DeOrr being due to them handing him off to someone in some black market type "adoption". It is statistically unlikely that they did this, however, it seems possible to me in this scenario of this missing child.
Natalie, I agree with you about the phone calls not coming in naturally. Good point. Like they were synchronized.Planned? So what do you truly think about ggp? I do have my doubts. Axe- overalls-shovel the overalls belong to Walton which I find quite interesting. Could they of contained either seminal fluid, or blood? Would they have been swabbed for traces of human blood verses fish blood? We know ggp is in poor health breathing problems,and prostrate cancer. But if its true that he has early dementia, how come he's able to drive the Suburban pulling a camper? I guess he has a license. Umm.Is he really that helpless. Do you think we might be missing a important clue as to who done it? I do think the dogs were in the vehicles,camper ect. Klein refused to comment on whether they found anything. Maybe ggp took Djr into his camper? I just don't trust easily. IMO
DCM,
Exactly! Like they were planned and syncronized, and as you said it points to the unnaturalness of the way the 911 calls were done and how the search was done.
The Grandpa could have harmed him, and I doubt he is anywhere near as helpless as they make him out to be, however IF he did harm DeOrr, I don't believe he killed and hid him and that the parents don't know what happened to DeOrr or where DeOrr is. Unfortunately, my hunch about this case is that DeOrr was surrounded by a group of evil people and that probably more than one were abusing him, and that, quite frankly, they all knew what was going on.
Do you think it was the Grandpa? Do you think they are covering for him? Or do you think it is possible that they don't know exactly what the grandpa did or where DeOrr is?
It is true that all it would take is just one evil S.O.B. to have killed him. I saw a video in which a body language analyst felt both parents were showing indicators of innocence and sincerity and he made some very good points. I personally don't buy the father's story and feel he is lying and I do find some disturbing elements in his language, however it is possible that grandpa did it.
Natalie, Yes I think the ggp could be the one. He had opportunity. He, according to the story, was the last one to see Djr alive. Just playing in the dirt. DeorrS said he was right there by the picnic table. I read in the earlier posts that Deorr and Jessica had left the baby with ggp and Isaac when they had left for town. I'm not sure if it was a post Trina put out on facebook. Maybe this is where the stories started to change. Remember all along Deorr has said he left him with ggp. That may be true.
I'v also thought of the possibilities of premeditation. When a child is targeted by a pedophile, there is usually some planning involved.
Isaac said in the Nate interview, that he was surprised that the parents were named as suspects. I ask you why was he surprised? Did he know of someone else?
Idaho State Repository- East Idaho News was able to speak briefly with Reinwand on Monday. Reinwand told them that Djr was with him and the great-grandfather before he went missing. He declined any further comments. July 28th
PI Vilt had said that Jessica and Deorr left Djr with ggp and Isaac in the morning and ggp at some point went inside his camper and may have been distracted.
Maybe ggp happened to pick little Djr up and carry him into the camper needing some privacy. I have a feeling that baby didn't wander too far away from the immediate area. The search dogs might have missed Djr because Djr was carried away. Right there at camp. So why didn't they have the dogs trace ggp's scent? And Isaacs'. Just to see where they may lead. I really think they were tracking the wrong person [Djr]
I don't for one minute believe ggp was distracted! We've all seen these sad disgusting child murderers before. The planning could of been taking place in the subconscience all along. Just waiting for opportunity.
The FBI took Waltons coveralls not Isaacs or anybody else's. Just saying. IMO
GGP and Isacc are patsies.
Using GGP and Isacc to deflect suspicion away from themselves is one of the more reprehensible aspects of JM and VDs characters.
That and lying to EVERYONE who has tried to help them.
They know exactly what happened and where little DeOrr is, but they chose to waste thousands of dollars and man hours on a wild goose chase, make up stories about black trucks and staring men, inflict untold suffering on people (and strangers) who care about DeOrr, cast blame on relatives and friends, rather than tell the truth and accept their fate.
Off Topic: DeOrr Kunz Jr. case (also posted in last DeOrr Kunz thread)
Interview with Sheriff Bowerman here: http://www.idahostatejournal.com/members/sheriff-discusses-deorr-kunz-jr-disappearance-and-case-of-baby/article_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html
A few notable points:
1. Bowerman is a former Boise County sheriff and a past Ada County deputy, and he’s served as a U.S Marshal. (bolding mine, for emphasis)
2. “We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”
The gloves are officially off.
Klein Investigations and Consulting have ended Phase III and are moving on to the recovery phase. VDK, JM and RW are listed as "persons of interest / suspects with direct knowledge." IR has been more forthcoming and his statements are being investigated and analyzed. Klein vindicates the extended family members of the suspects, but not without driving a point home in the final paragraph.
"Private investigator issues statement regarding DeOrr Kunz, Jr.": http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/02/kunz-private-investigator-issues/
This is the full, unedited interview with private investigator Phillip Klein on the state of the DeOrr Kunz, Jr. investigation. All of the opinions on the case are solely those of Klein.
http://m.localnews8.com/news/interview-with-private-investigator-phillip-klein-on-deorr-kunz-investigation/38264866
KUNZ INVESTIGATOR: JESSICA MITCHELL KNOWS WHERE DEORR’S BODY IS
Jessica herself has told investigators on our team she knows where the body is but she will not go all the way and finish her story.
... in our interviews with the grandfather, he did admit to investigators that he believes there was an accident. He will not go all the way and tell the complete truth at this time.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/03/kunz-investigator-jessica-mitchell-knows-where-deorrs-body-is/
Agree
I need to know if the camper was every taken apart, was the truck ever taken apart, and did they get anything besides diesel at the truck stop that morning he went missing. Campers have the smallest nooks and crannies. Trucks have spots that lift up. Did they ever verify the vehicle was the same one start to finish? Is there a missing vehicle somewhere?
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