Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Statement Analysis of Lizzie Borden: Part Three

part three:

We pick up now with the crucial information about the dress.  The dress was rumored to have been destroyed by Lizzie, in a fire, as witnessed by her sister.  Eventually, the sister stopped speaking to Lizzie and moved away after the trial.  The prosecution knows that the dress would have been blood splattered given the nature of the murders.

Will the sensitive topic of the dress take Lizzie Borden "off her game" as she has been incredibly self disciplined with her short, "yes, sir" and "no, sir" answers?  The prosecutor needs to get her to speak, and needs to stay away from "yes or no" questions and not let Borden run the interview by her brevity.


Q. What dress did you wear the day they were killed?

A. I had on a navy blue, sort of a Bengaline silk skirt with a navy blue blouse. In the afternoon, they thought I had better change it. I put on a pink wrapper.


Wouldn't you have pounced upon this?

She changed her blue dress in the afternoon, to a pink wrapper.  

What questions would you ask?

Q. Did you change your clothing before the afternoon?

A. No sir.


Where is this going?

Note the subject is back to her comfort level of "no, sir" short responses.  

Q. You dressed in the morning as you have described and kept that clothing on until afternoon?

A. Yes sir.


What is this question even about?

Q. When did Morse come there first? I don't mean this visit. I mean as a visitor, John V. Morse?

A. Do you mean this day that he came and stayed all night?


She answers the question with a question which indicates sensitivity, but the sensitivity is found in context:  She needs clarity.  It was a poorly worded question.  

Q. No. Was this visit the first to your house?
A. He has been in the east a year or more.


"Has been" indicates a lengthening of time to the answer.  The question, "Was this the first visit the first to your house?" should have been met with "No, sir" and left at that.  

We have, in an almost subtle way, the need to tell why he has been visiting; due to geographical location. 

What is it about this man that has caused sensitivity? 

Q. Since he has been in the east, has he been in the habit of coming to your house?

A. Yes; came in any time he wanted to.


Missing pronoun.  

What is it about this man that has caused her to drop the pronoun?

Q. Before that, had he been at your house---before he came east?


The prosecutor recognizes that Lizzie felt the need to explain 'why' in some degree, he came to the house and now is probing. 

A. Yes, he has been here, if you remember the winter that the river was frozen over and they went across, he was here that winter, some 14 years ago, was it not?


Look who is controlling the interview!  The prosecutor feels the sting of her attempt to gain confirmation from the prosecutor, himself:

Q. I am not answering questions but asking them.


This was a foolish, emotional response.  He could have ignored her question, as a professional, and moved on.  Yet it is difficult as we are all subject to passions, and he has the responsibility of justice for the death of two citizens weighing upon him, believes that there was no possible other suspect, and wants to be a success.  

It is a tough job, and very easy to criticize later, while only having transcripts, but not the emotions involved. 


A. I don't remember the date. He was here that winter.


Q. Has he been here since?

A. He has been here once since. I don't know whether he has or not since.


She should have said, "yes, sir" but she appears to want to control the prosecutor by cutting off his follow up question.  It is not a good strategy but I wonder if she sensed his indignity at being asked to confirm her memory of the winter that the river froze over.  

Q. How many times this last year has he been at your house?
A. None at all to speak of. Nothing more than a night or two at a time.


Why not simply say, "one or two nights"?  He was not there "to speak of" meaning he was there, but implying nothing memorial took place about the visits.  


Q. How often did he come to spend a night or two?

A. Really, I don't know. I am away so much myself.


Note the slip into present tense language.  

Q. Your last answer is that you don't know how much he had been here because you had been away yourself so much?


The prosecutor did exactly what the subject could hope for:  He interpreted her words, and 'corrected' her verb tense.  

This is a mistake that is inexcusable.  We do not interpret.  Deceptive people are counting on us interpreting for them.  We listen.  We let them explain.  



A. Yes.


The word "sir" disappeared since the prosecutor's offense. 
We will see if it returns.  

Q. That is true the last year or since he has been east?

A. I have not been away the last year so much but other times I have been away when he has been here.


She does not say "I was not away..." but instead uses "have not", which is to avoid the question.  

Q. Do I understand you to say that his last visit before this one was 14 years ago?
A. No. He has been here once between the two.


Q. How long did he stay then?

A. I don't know.


Q. How long ago was that?

A. I don't know.


Q. Give me your best remembrance.

A Five or six years; perhaps six.


Q. How long has he been east this time?

A I think over a year. I'm not sure.


The tone of the interview has changed. 

Q. During the last year, how much of the time has he been at your house?

A. Very little that I know of.


Q. Your answer to that question before was, "I don't know because I have been away so much myself."


What happened to the dress questions?

A. I did not mean I had been away very much myself in the last year.


Q. How much have you been away the last year?

A. I have been away a great deal in the daytime; occasionally at night.


Q. Where in the daytime? Any particular place?

A No. Around town.


She actually answers both questions.  

Q. When you go off nights, where?

A. Never, unless I have been off on a visit.


Q. When was the last time when you have been away for more than a night or two before this affair?

A. I don't think I have been away to stay more than a night or two since I came from abroad, except about three or four weeks ago I was in New Bedford for three or four days.


Q. Where at New Bedford?

A. At 20 Madison Street.


Q. How long ago were you abroad?

A. I was abroad in 1890.


Q. When did he come to the house the last time before your father and mother were killed?


He finally gets towards the day of the murder.  This tangent has been ongoing and has wasted valuable pace. 


A He stayed there all night Wednesday night.


Q. My question is when he came there.

A. I don't know. I was not home when he came. I was out.


Q. When did you first see him there?

A. I did not see him at all.


Q. How did you know he was there?

A. I heard his voice.


She appears to be annoying him with her cagey answers. 

Q. You did not see him Wednesday evening?
A. I did not. I was out Wednesday evening.


This was the place for, "no, sir" but she is off that pace, which is better for the prosecution. 


Q. You did not see him Thursday morning?

A. I did not. He was out when I came downstairs.


Q. When was the first time you saw him?

A. Thursday noon.


Q. You had never seen him before that?

A. No sir.


She has gotten back to "no, sir" which may indicate that she has, once again, found her bearings.  She had avoided, prior to this, giving out much additional information.  We now look to see if she will give out information, or will return to minimal responses. 


Q. Where were you Wednesday evening?

A. I spent the evening with Miss Russell.


Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?

A. About nine o'clock at night.


Q. The family had then retired?

A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room. I don't remember.


Q. You did not look to see?

A. No sir.


Q. Which door 
did you come in at?
A. The front door.

Q. Did you lock it?

A. Yes sir.


Q. For the night?

A. Yes sir.


Q. And went right upstairs to your room?

A. Yes sir.


Why would he go back to the "yes or no" questions?


Q. When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?

A. I heard him down there about suppertime No, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.


Here she has:

1.  Self corrected
2.  Given additional information:  she was not feeling well, which tells why she was in her room. 
3.  Chosen '3'o'clock" as her corrected time.  Note that if someone is going to choose a number between 1 and 9, and is lying, the number 3 appears to be the number of choice.  

This appears to be a sensitivity in that she needs to explain why she was in her room and not engaged with Mr. Morse.  


Q. Did you eat supper at home Wednesday night?

A. I was at home. I did not eat any supper because I did not feel able to eat supper. I had been sick.


This was a place for "no, sir" but the subject feels the need to explain why even though she was not asked. 



Q. You did not come down to supper?

A. No sir.


Q. Did you hear him eating supper?

A. No sir. I did not know whether he was there or not.

Q. You heard him in the afternoon?

A. Yes sir.


Q. Did you hear him go away?

A. I did not.


Q. You did not go down to see him?

A. No sir.


Q. Was you in bed?

A. No sir, I was on the lounge.


Q. Why did you not go down?

A. I did not care to go down and I was not feeling well and kept to my room all day.


Q. You felt better in the evening?

A. Not very much better. I thought I would go out and see if the air would make me feel any better.


Q. When you came back at nine o'clock, you did not look in to see if the family were up?

A. No sir.


Q. Why not?

A. I very rarely do when I come in.


Q. You go right to your room?

A. Yes sir.


Q. Did you have a night key?

A. Yes sir.


Q. How did you know it was right to lock the front door?

A. That was always my business.


Q. How many locks did you fasten?

A. The spring locks itself and there is a key to turn and you manipulate the bolt.


Q. You manipulated all those?

A I used them all.


Q. Then you went to bed?

A Yes, directly.


This would have caused me to explore further as to why she felt the need to cut off all possible communication with everyone else and go to bed "directly."


Q. When you got up the next morning, did you see Mr. Morse?

A. I did not.


Q. Had the family breakfasted when you came down?

A. Yes sir.


Q. What time did you come downstairs?

A As near as I can remember, it was a few minutes before nine.


Q. Who did you find downstairs when you came down?

A. Maggie and Mrs. Borden.


Note the order:  "Mrs. Borden", her step mother and the deceased, comes after Maggie. 

Q. Did you inquire for Mr. Morse?

A. No sir.


Q. Did you suppose he had gone?

A. I did not know whether he had or not. He was not there.


Q. Your father was there?

A Yes sir.


Q. Then you found him?

A. Yes sir.


Q. Did you speak either to your father or Mrs. Borden?

A. I spoke to them all.


not "both" but "all."
Who else did she speak to?

Q. About Mr. Morse?

A. I did not mention him.


Q. Did not inquire anything about him?

A. No sir.


Q. How long before that time had he been at the house?

A. I don't know.


Q. As near as you can tell.

A. I don't know. He was there in June some time. I don't know whether he was there after that or not.


Q. Why did you not go to Marion with the party that went?

A. Because they went sooner than I could and I was going Monday.


Q. Why did they go sooner than you could? What was there to keep you?

                            Avoid compound questions  


A. I had taken the secretaryship and treasurer of our CE Society, had the charge, and the roll call was the first Sunday in August and I felt I must be there and attend to that part of the business.

Q. Where was your sister Emma that day?

A. What day?


She knows precisely what day.  

Q. The day your father and Mrs. Borden were killed.

A. She had been in Fairhaven.


what is the difference between "she had been in Fairhaven" and "she was in Fairhaven"?

We note that "had been" denotes a passing of time, and can often indicate missing information.  

She "was in Fairhaven" is straight past tense.

She "had been" is indication that she came back home.  

Q. Had you written to her?

A. Yes sir.


Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?

A. Thursday morning; and my father mailed the letter for me.


Why did she feel the need to add that her father mailed the letter for her?

Q. Did she get it at Fairhaven?

A. No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at Fairhaven for we telegraphed for her and she got home here Thursday afternoon and the letter was sent back to this post office.


Q. How long had she been in Fairhaven?

A. Just two weeks to the day.


Q. You did not visit in Fairhaven?

A. No sir.


Q. Had there been anybody else around the house that week, or premises?

A. No one that I know of except the man that called to see him on this business about the store.


"the man" and not "a" man, as previously identified. 

Are you wondering at this point what happened to the blue dress?  What happened to Mr. Morse?


Q. Was that that week?

A. Yes sir.


Q. I misunderstand you probably. I thought you said a week or two before.

A. No, I said that week. There was a man came the week before and gave up some keys and I took them.


Q. Do you remember of anybody else being then around the premises that week?


I think he is baiting her to see if she would readily try to blame the murder on some unidentified man.  She does not go for it.  

This was strong on the part of the defense.  


A. Nobody that I know of or saw.


Q. Nobody at work there?

A. No sir.


Q. Nobody doing any chores there?

A. No sir, not that I know of.


"that I know of" allows for the possibility of someone being there, but not to her knowledge. It leaves the door open just enough...



Q. Nobody had access to the house so far as you know during that time?

A. No sir.


Frustration leads him to reveal his weakness, and re-ask about Mr. Morse:

Q. I ask you once more how it happened that, knowing Mr. Morse was at your house you did not step in and greet him before you retired.


A. I have no reason except that I was not feeling well Wednesday and so did not come down.


Q. No, you were down when you came in from out.

A. Do you mean Wednesday night?
Q. Yes.
A. Because I hardly ever do go in. I generally went right up to my room and I did that night.


Q. Could you then get to your room from the back hall?

A. No sir.


Q. From the back stairs?

A. No sir.


Q. Why not? What would hinder?


be careful how you word your questions, for you might teach your opponent how to lie. 


A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked and his door into my room was locked and hooked, too, I think and I had no keys.


Q. That was the custom of the establishment?


This may have struck the prosecutor as odd, especially since Lizzie had claimed to have been close to her father and had been charged with his murder. 

A. It had always been so.


Q. It was so Wednesday and so Thursday?

A. It was so Wednesday but Thursday they broke the door open.


Q. That was after the crowd came. Before the crowd came?


I am beginning to feel sorry for him now.  He is stumbling and should have stayed with open ended questions as near as possible. 

A It was so.


Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?

A They would have to have two keys if they went up the back way to get into my room. If they were in my room, they would have to have a key to get into his room and another key to get into the back stairs.


Q. Where did Mr. Morse sleep?

A In the next room, over the parlor in front of the stairs.


Q. Right up the stairs where your room was?

A Yes sir.


Q. How far from your room?

A. A door opened into it.


Q. The two rooms connected directly?

A By one door, that is all.


It is an adjacent room:  very close.  One might wonder if one could hear a party snoring.  


Q. Not through the hall?

A. No sir.


Q. Was the door locked?

A It has been locked and bolted and a large writing desk in my room kept up against it.


Q. Then it was not a practical opening?

A No sir.


Q. How otherwise do you get from your room to the other room?

A. I have to go into the front hall.


Q. How far apart are the two doors?

A. Very near. I don't think more than so far. Indicating


Q. Was it your habit when you were in your room to keep your door shut?

A. Yes sir.


Q. That time---that Wednesday afternoon?

A. My door was open part of the time and part of the time I tried to get a nap and their voices annoyed me and I closed it. I kept it open in summer, more or less, and closed in winter.


Q. Then, unless for some special reason, you kept your door open in the summer?

A. Yes sir, if it was a warm day. If it was a cool day, I should have closed it.


Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?

A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.


Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?


this may have been a transparent attempt to annoy the subject.  He knows full well that she was "Mrs. Borden" and not "mother" in any form.  Lizzie Borden is not knocked off her game:  


A. I had as soon you call her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.

Yet, the subject did not call her "mother" but "Mrs. Borden."  From this point onwards, we look to see if the word "mother" will enter the subject's vocabulary.  

Q. When she dusted, did she wear something over her head?

A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.


Q. Where was Maggie?

A. Just came in the back door with the long pole, brush and put the brush on the handle. and getting her pail of water. She was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.


Q. Did you get your breakfast that morning?

A. I did not eat any breakfast. I did not feel as though I wanted any.


Explore the loss of appetite!  

Q. Did you get any breakfast that morning?

A. I don't know whether I ate half a banana. I don't think I did.


Q. You drank no tea or coffee that morning?

A. No sir.


Q. And ate no cookies?


Really?

This portion of the interview was very poorly conducted.  


A. I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.



Q. Were the breakfast things put away when you got down?

A. Everything except the coffee pot. I'm not sure whether that was on the stove or not.


Q. You said nothing about Mr. Morse to your father or mother?

A. No sir.


Thus all the questions about Mr. Morse have yielded little information.  The dress was barely touched upon.  The prosecutor seems utterly lost. 

In three parts, we have it:

Lizzie Borden 3

Prosecutor      0





Next up is Maggie, the worker, in Part 4.


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Part Four 

Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?

A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell us again what time you came downstairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say. About quarter. I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were you doing when he started away?
A. I was in the dining room, I think. Yes, I had just commenced, I think, to iron.
Q. It may seem a foolish question. How much of an ironing did you have?
A. I only had about eight or ten of my best handkerchiefs.
Q. Did you let your father out?
A. No sir, he went out himself.
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went upstairs, she always locked the door. She had charge of the back door.
Q. Did she go out after a brush before your father went away?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you say anything to Maggie?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you speak to her?
A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast.
Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. I don't remember it. Yes, I remember. Yes, I asked her to shut the parlor blinds when she got through because the sun was so hot.
Q. About what time do you think your father went downtown?
A. I don't know. It must have been about nine o'clock. I don't know what time it was.
Q. You think at that time you had begun to iron your handkerchiefs?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long a job was that?
A. I did not finish them. My flats were not hot enough.
Q. How long a job would it have been if the flats had been right?
A. If they had been hot, not more than 20 minutes, perhaps.
Q. How long did you work on the job?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Where were you when he returned?
A. I was down in the kitchen.
Q. What doing?
A. Reading an old magazine that had been left in the cupboard, an old Harper's magazine.
Q. Had you got through ironing?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you stopped ironing?
A. Stopped for the flats.
Q. Were you waiting for them to be hot?


Avoid giving answers in your questions.  Here, he tells her why there is a time delay.  Foolish mistake. 


A. Yes sir.

Q. Was there a fire in the stove?
A. Yes sir.


Q. When your father went away, you were ironing then?

A. I had not commenced, but I was getting the little ironing board and the flannel.
Q. Are you sure you were in the kitchen when your father returned?
A. I am not sure whether I was there or in the dining room.
Q. Did you go back to your room before your father returned?
A. I think I did carry up some clean clothes.
Q. Did you stay there?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you spend any time up the front stairs before your father returned?
A. No sir.
Q. Or after he returned?
A. No sir. I did stay in my room long enough when I went up to sew a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Was that the time when your father came home?
A. He came home after I came downstairs.
Q. You were not upstairs when he came home?
A. I was not upstairs when he came home, no sir.
Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone upstairs. I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell and I think Maggie let him in and he said he had forgotten his key. So I think she must have been downstairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted. Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key, it would have been no good.
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key.
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room upstairs.
Q. Then you were upstairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think so.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were upstairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.
Q. Was Maggie still engaged in washing windows when your father got back?
A. I don't know.
Q. You remember, Miss Borden, I will call to your attention to it so as to see if I have any misunderstanding, not for the purpose of confusing you, you remember that you told me several times that you were downstairs and not upstairs when your father came home? You have forgotten, perhaps?
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know how.
Q. Calling your attention to what you said about that a few minutes ago, and now again to the circumstances, you have said you were upstairs when the bell rang and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in, which now is your recollection of the true statement of the matter? That you were downstairs when the bell rang and your father came?
A. I think I was downstairs in the kitchen.
Q. And then you were not upstairs?
A. I think I was not because I went up almost immediately, as soon as I went down, and then came down again and stayed down.
Q. What had you in your mind when you said you were on the stairs as Maggie let your father in?
A. The other day somebody came there and she let them in and I was on the stairs. I don't know whether the morning before or when it was.
Q. You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I now call your attention to the fact that you had specifically told me you had gone upstairs and had been there about five minutes when the bell rang and were on your way down and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day.
A. Yes, I said that. And then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs or in the kitchen.
Q. Now how will you have it?
A. I think, as nearly as I know, I think I was in the kitchen.
Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know, sir. Not very long.
Q. An hour?
A. I should not think so.
Q. Will you give me the best story you can, so far as your recollection serves you, of your time while he was gone?
A. I sprinkled my handkerchiefs and got my ironing board and took them in the dining room. I took the ironing board in the dining room and left the handkerchiefs in the kitchen on the table and whether I ate any cookies or not, I don't remember. Then I sat down looking at the magazine, waiting for the flats to heat. Then I went in the sitting room and got the Providence Journal and took that into the kitchen. I don't recollect of doing anything else.
Q. Which did you read first, the Journal or the magazine?
A The magazine.
Q. You told me you were reading the magazine when your father came back.
A. I said in the kitchen, yes.
Q. Was that so?
A. Yes, I took the Journal out to read and had not read it. I had it near me.
Q. You said a minute or two ago you read the magazine a while and then went and got the Journal and took it out to read.
A. I did, but I did not read it. I tried my flats then.
Q. And went back to reading the magazine?
A. I took the magazine up again, yes.
Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.
Q. Where did you or she go then?
A. I don't know where she went. I know where I was.
Q. Did you or she leave the dining room first?
A I think I did. I left her in the dining room.
Q. You never saw her or heard her afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed and was going to close the room because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there and she said she was going to commence to work on them. That is all I know. And the sewing machine was up there.
Q. Whereabouts was the sewing machine?
A. In the corner between the north and west side.
Q. Did you hear the sewing machine going?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see anything to indicate that the sewing machine had been used that morning?
A. I had not. I did not go in there until after everybody had been in there and the room had been overhauled.
Q. If she had remained downstairs, you would undoubtedly have seen her?
A. If she had remained downstairs, I should have. If she had remained in her room, I should not have.
Q. Where was that?
A. Over the kitchen.
Q. To get to that room she would have to go through the kitchen?
A. To get up the back stairs.
Q. That is the way she was in the habit of going?
A. Yes sir, because the other doors were locked.
Q. If she had remained downstairs or had gone to her own room, you undoubtedly would have seen her?
A. I should have seen her if she had stayed downstairs. If she had gone to her room, I would not have seen her.
Q. She was found a little after 11 in the spare room. If she had gone to her own room, she must have gone through the kitchen and up the back stairs and subsequently have gone down and gone back again?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her room or downstairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came downstairs, for two or three minutes, I went down cellar to the water closet.
Q. After that, you were where you practically commanded the view of the first story the rest of the time?
A. I think so.
Q. When you went upstairs for a short time, as you say you did, you then went in sight of the sewing machine?
A. No, I did not see the sewing machine because she had shut that room up.
Q. What do you mean?
A. I mean the door was closed. She said she wanted it kept closed to keep the dust and everything out.
Q. Was it a room with a window?
A. It has three windows.
Q. A large room?
A. The size of the parlor; a pretty fair-sized room.
Q. It is the guest room?
A. Yes, the spare room.
Q. Where the sewing machine was was the guest room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I ask again, perhaps you have answered all you care to, what explanation can you give, can you suggest, as to what she was doing from the time she said she had got the work all done in the spare room, until 11 o'clock?
A. I suppose she went up and made her own bed.
Q. That would be in the back part?
A. Yes sir.
Q. She would have to go by you twice to do that?
A. Unless she went when I was in my room that few minutes.
Q. That would not be time enough for her to go and make her own bed and come back again.
A. Sometimes she stayed up longer and sometimes shorter. I don't know.
Q. Otherwise than that, she would have to go in your sight?
A. I should have to have seen her once. I don't know that I need to have seen her more than once.
Q. You did not see her at all?
A. No sir, not after the dining room.
Q. What explanation can you suggest as to the whereabouts of your mother from the time you saw her in the dining room and she said her work in the spare room was all done, until 11 o'clock?
A. I don't know. I think she went back into the spare room and whether she came back again or not, I don't know. That has always been a mystery.
Q. Can you think of anything she could be doing in the spare room?
A. Yes sir. I know what she used to do sometimes. She kept her best cape she wore on the street in there and she used occasionally to go up there to get it and to take it into her room. She kept a great deal in the guest room drawers. She used to go up there and get things and put things. She used those drawers for her own use.
Q. That connects her with her own room again, to reach which she had to go downstairs and come up again.
A. Yes.
Q. Assuming that she did not go into her own room, I understand you to say she could not have gone to her own room without your seeing her.
A. She could while I was down cellar.
Q. You went down immediately you came down, within a few minutes, and you did not see her when you came back.
A. No sir.
Q. After the time she must have remained in the guest chamber?
A. I don't know.
Q. So far as you can judge?
A. So far as I can judge she might have been out of the house or in the house.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had had a note. Somebody was sick and she said, "I am going to get the dinner on the way" and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.
Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone?
A. I supposed she had gone.
Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
Q. When you found your father dead, you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in, "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in. I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so. I did not suppose anything about it.
Q. Did she tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. Did she tell you who the note was from?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever see the note?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know where it is now?
A. No sir.
Q. She said she was going out that morning?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I shall have to ask you once more about that morning.  Do you know what the family ate for breakfast?
A. No sir.
Q. Had the breakfast all been cleared away when you got down?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I want you to tell me just where you found the people when you got down that you did find there.
A. I found Mrs. Borden in the dinning room I found my father in the sitting room.
Q. And Maggie?
A. Maggie was coming in the back door with her pail and brush.
Q. Tell me what talk you had with your mother at the time?
A. She asked me how I felt.  I said I felt better than I did Tuesday, but I did not want any breakfast.  She asked me what I wanted for dinner I told her nothing.  She said she was going out and would get the dinner. That is the last I saw her.
Q. Where did you go to then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where then?
A. Down cellar.
Q. Gone perhaps five minutes?
A. Perhaps not more than that. Possibly a little bit more.
Q. When you came back did you see your mother?
A. I did not. I supposed she had gone out.
Q. She did not tell you where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. When you came back, was your father there? 
A. Yes sir.
Q. What was he doing?
A. Reading the paper.
Q. Did you eat any breakfast?
A. No sir. I don't remember whether I ate a molasses cookie or not.
I did not eat any regularly prepared breakfast.
Q. Was it was usual for your mother to go out?
A. Yes sir, she went out every morning nearly and did the marketing.
Q. Was it was usual for her to go away from dinner.
A. Yes sir sometimes, not very often.
Q. How often, say?
A. Oh I should not think more than---well, I don't know, more than once in three months, perhaps.
Q. Now I call your attention to the fact that twice yesterday you told me, with some explicitness, that when your father came in, you were just coming downstairs.
A. No I did not. I beg your pardon.
Q. That you were on the stairs at the time your father was let in, you said with explicitness.  Do you now say that you did not say so?
A. I said I thought first I was on the stairs; then I remembered I was in the kitchen when he came in.
Q. First you thought you were in the kitchen; afterwards, your remembered you were on the stairs?
A. As I said, I thought I was on the stairs.  Then I remembered I was in the kitchen when he came in. 
Q. Did you go into the front part of the house after your father came in?
A. After he came in from down street, I was in the sitting room with him.
Q. Did you go into the front hall afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. At no time?
A. No sir.
Q. Excepting the two or three minutes you were down cellar, were you away from the house until your father came in?
A. No sir.
Q. You were always in the kitchen or dining room, excepting when you went upstairs?
A. I went upstairs before he went out.
Q. You mean you went up there to sew a button on?
A. I basted a piece of tape on.
Q. Do you remember you did not say that yesterday?
A. I don't think you asked me. I told you yesterday I went upstairs directly after I came up from down cellar, with the clean clothes.
Q. You now say after your father went out, you did not go upstairs at all?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. When Maggie came in there washing the windows, you did not appear from the front part of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. When your father was let in, you did not appear from upstairs?
A. No sir, I was in the kitchen.
Q. That is so?
A. Yes sir, to the best of my knowledge.
Q. After your father went out, you remained there, either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went into the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers.
Q. One of the three rooms?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So it would have been extremely difficult for anybody to have gone through the kitchen and dining room and front hall without your seeing them?
A. They could have gone from the kitchen into the sitting room while I was in the dining room, if there was anybody to go.
Q. Then into the front hall?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were in the dining room ironing?
A. Yes sir, part of the time.
Q. You were in all the three rooms?
A. Yes sir.
Q. A large portion of that time the girl was out of doors?
A. I don't know where she was. I did not see her. I supposed she was out of doors, as she had the pail and brush.
Q. You knew she was washing windows?
A. She told me she was going to. I did not see her do it.
Q. For a large portion of the time, you did not see the girl?
A. No sir.
Q. So far as you know, you were alone in the lower part of the house a large portion of the time after your father went away and before he came back?
A. My father did not go away, I think, until somewhere about 10, as near as I can, remember. He was with me downstairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone upstairs.
Q. After he went out and before he came back, a large portion of the time after your father went out and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house?
A So far as I know, I was.
Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked?
A So far as I know.
Q. And never was unlocked at all?
A I don't think it was.
Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again?
A. I don't know whether she locked it up again after that or not.
Q. It locks itself?
A. The spring lock opens.
Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside?
A. Sometimes you can press it open.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the outside?
A. I have no reason to suppose so.
Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the public came?
A. Nothing that I know of.
Q. What were you doing in the kitchen when your father came home?
A. I think I was eating a pear when he came in.
Q. What had you been doing before that?
A. Been reading a magazine.
Q. Were you making preparations to iron again?
A. I had sprinkled my clothes and was waiting for the flat. I sprinkled the clothes before he went out.
Q. Had you built up the fire again?
A. I put in a stick of wood. There was a few sparks. I put in a stick of wood to try to heat the flat.
Q. You had then started the fire?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The fire was burning when he came in?
A. No sir, but it was smoldering and smoking as though it would come up.
Q. Did it come up after he came in?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you do any more ironing?
A. I did not. I went in with him and did not finish.
Q. You did not iron any more after your father came in?
A. No sir.
Q. Was the ironing board put away?
A. No sir, it was on the dining room table.
Q. When was it put away?
A. I don't know. Somebody put it away after the affair happened.
Q. You did not put it away?
A. No sir.
Q. Was it on the dining room table when you found your father killed?
A. I suppose so.
Q. You had not put it away then?
A. I had not touched it.
Q. How soon after your father came in before Maggie went upstairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in.
Q. How long was your father in the house before you found him killed?
A. I don't know exactly because I went out to the barn. I don't know what time he came home. I don't think he had been home more than 15 or 20 minutes. I am not sure.
Q. When you went out to the barn, where did you leave your father?
A. He had laid down on the living room lounge, taken off his shoes and put on his slippers and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way.
Q. Where did you leave him?
A. On the sofa.
Q. Was he asleep?
A. No sir.
Q. Was he reading?
A. No sir.
Q. What was the last thing you said to him?
A. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way. Then I went into the kitchen and from there to the barn.
Q. Whereabouts in the barn did you go?
A. Upstairs.
Q. To the second story of the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long did you remain there?
A. I don't know. Fifteen or 20 minutes.
Q. What doing?
A. Trying to find lead for a sinker.
Q. What made you think there would be lead for a sinker up there?
A. Because there was some there.
Q. Was there not some by the door?
A. Some pieces of lead by the open door, but there was a box full of old things upstairs.
Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn?
A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor.


Q. Where was that box you say was upstairs, containing lead?

A. There was a kind of a work bench.


Q. Is it there now?

A. I don't know sir.


Q. How long since you have seen it there?

A. I have not been out there since that day.


Q. Had you been in the barn before?

A. That day? No sir.


Q. How long since you had been in the barn before?

A. I don't think I had been into it, I don't know as I had, in three months.


Q. When you went out, did you unfasten the screen door?

A. I unhooked it to get out.


Q. It was hooked until you went out?

A. Yes sir.


Q. It had been left hooked by Bridget, if she was the last one in?

A. I suppose so. I don't know.


Q. Do you know when she did get through washing the outside?

A. I don't know.


Q. Did you know she washed the windows inside?

A. I don't know.


Q. Did you see her washing the windows inside?

A. I don't know.


Q. You don't know whether she washed the dining room window and sitting room windows inside?

A. I did not see her.


Q. If she did, would you not have seen her?

A. I don't know. She might be in one room and I in another.


Q. Do you think she might have gone to work and washed all the windows in the dining room and you not know it?


A. I don't know, I am sure, whether I should or not. I might have seen her and not know it.


Q. Miss Borden, I am trying in good faith to get all the doings that morning, of yourself and Miss Sullivan and I have not succeeded in doing it. Do you desire to give me any information or not?

A. I don't know it! I don't know what your name is!


Q. It is certain beyond reasonable doubt she was engaged in washing the windows in the dining room or sitting room when your father came home. Do you mean to say you know nothing of either of those operations?

A. I knew she washed the windows outside; that is, she told me so. She did not wash the windows in the kitchen because I was in the kitchen most of the time.


Q. The dining room and sitting room, I said.

A. I don't know.


Q. It is reasonably certain she washed the windows in the dining room and sitting room inside while your father was out and was engaged in that operation when your father came home. Do you mean to say you know nothing of it?

A. I don't know whether she washed the windows in the sitting room and dining room or not.


Q. Can you give me any information how it happened at that particular time you should go into the chamber of the barn to find a sinker to go to Marion with to fish the next Monday?

A. I was going to finish my ironing. My flats were not hot. I said to myself, "I will go and try and find that sinker. Perhaps by the time I get back, the flats will be hot". That is the only reason.


Q. How long had you been reading an old magazine before you went to the barn at all?

A. Perhaps half an hour.


Q. Had you got a fish line?

A. Not here. We had some at the farm.


Q. Had you got a fish hook?

A. No sir.


Remarkable restraint by the subject who was likely well prepared by her defense.  She continually gives short answers, offering little information, which, by this time, frustrated the prosecutor. 

Q. Had you got any apparatus for fishing at all?

A. Yes, over there.


Q. Had you any sinkers over there?

A. I think there were some. It is so long since I have been there, I think there were some.


Q. You had no reason to suppose you were lacking sinkers?

A. I don't think there were any on my lines.


Q. Where were your lines?

A. My fish lines were at the farm here.


Q. What made you think there were no sinkers at the farm on your lines?

A. Because some time ago when I was there, I had none.


Q. How long since you used the fish lines?

A. Five years, perhaps.


Q. You left them at the farm then?

A. Yes sir.


Q. And you have not seen them since?

A. Yes sir.


In his frustration, he asked leading questions.  What we do not know, from the transcripts, how often he used silence to attempt to elicit more words from her.  She is focused solely on the specific question, and refuses to take the bait and explain anything beyond the scope of the question.  


Q. It occurred to you after your father came in it would be a good time to go to the barn after sinkers and you had no reason to suppose there was not abundance of sinkers at the farm and abundance of lines?

A. The last time I was there, there were some lines.


Q. Did you not say before you presumed there were sinkers at the farm?

A. I don't think I said so.


Q. You did say so exactly. Do you now say you presume there were not sinkers at the farm?

A. I don't think there were any fishing lines suitable to use at the farm. I don't think there were any sinkers on any line that had been mine.


Q. Do you remember telling me you presumed there were lines and sinkers and hooks at the farm?

A. I said there were lines, I thought, and perhaps hooks. I did not say I thought there were sinkers on my lines. There was another box of lines over there beside mine.


Q. You thought there were not sinkers?

A. Not on my lines.


Q. Not sinkers at the farm?

A I don't think there were any sinkers at the farm. I don't know whether there were or not.


Q. Did you then think there were no sinkers at the farm?

A I thought there were no sinkers anywhere or I should not have been trying to find some.


Q. You thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had?

A I thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had.
Q. That is the reason you went into the second story of the barn to look for a sinker?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What made you think you would find sinkers there?
A I heard father say, and I knew there was lead there.
Q. What made you think you would find sinkers there?
A. I went to see because there was lead there.
Q. You thought there might be lead there made into sinkers?
A. I thought there might be lead with a hole in it.
Q. Did you examine the lead that was downstairs near the door?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I don't know.
Q. You went straight to the upper story of the barn?
A No, I went under the pear tree and got some pears first.
Q. Then went to the second story of the barn to look for sinkers for lines you had at the farm, as you supposed, as you had seen them there five years before that time?
A I went up to get some sinkers if I could find them. I did not intend to go to the farm for lines. I was going to buy some lines here.
Q. You then had no intention of using your lines at Marion?
A. I could not get them.
Q. You had no intention of using your own line and hooks at the farm?
A. No sir.
Q. What was the use of telling me a while ago you had no sinkers on your line at the farm?
A. I thought I made you understand that those lines at the farm were no good to use.
Q. Did you not mean for me to understand one of the reasons you were searching for sinkers was that the lines you had at the farm, as you remembered then, had no sinkers on them?
A I said the lines at the farm had no sinkers.
Q. I did not ask you what you said. Did you not mean for me to understand that?
A. I meant for you to understand I wanted the sinkers and was going to have new lines.
Q. You had not then bought your lines?
A. No sir, I was going out Thursday noon.
Q. You had not bought any apparatus for fishing?
A. No hooks.
Q. Had bought nothing connected with your fishing trip?
A. No sir.
Q. Was going to go fishing the next Monday, were you?
A. I don't know that we should go fishing Monday.
Q. Going to the place to go fishing Monday?
A. Yes sir.
Q. This was Thursday and you had no idea of using any fishing apparatus before the next Monday?
A. No sir.
Q. You had no fishing apparatus you were proposing to use the next Monday until then?
A. No sir, not until I bought it.
Q. You had not bought anything?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you started to buy anything?
A. No sir.
Q. The first thing in preparation for your fishing trip the next Monday was to go to the loft of that barn to find some old sinkers to put on some hooks and lines that you had not then bought?
A. I thought if I found no sinkers, I would have to buy the sinkers when I bought the lines.
Q. You thought you would be saving something by hunting in the loft of the barn before you went to see whether you should need them or not?
A. I thought I would find out whether there were any sinkers before I bought the lines and if there was, I should not have to buy any sinkers. If there were some, I should only have to buy the lines and the hooks.
Q. You began the collection of your fishing apparatus by searching for the sinkers in the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were searching in a box of old stuff in the loft of the barn?
A. Yes sir, upstairs.
Q. That you had never looked at before?
A. I had seen them.
Q. Never examined them before?
A. No sir.
Q. All the reason you supposed there was sinkers there was your father had told you there was lead in the barn?
A. Yes, lead. And one day I wanted some old nails. He said there was some in the barn.
Q. All the reason that gave you to think there was sinkers was your father said there was old lead in the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did he mention the place in the barn?
A. I think he said upstairs. I'm not sure.
Q. Where did you look upstairs?
A. On that work-bench like.
Q. In anything?
A. Yes. In a box---sort of a box. And then some things lying right on the side that was not in the box.
Q. How large a box was it?
A. I could not tell you. It was probably covered up---with lumber, I think.
Q. Give me the best idea of the size of the box you can.
A. Well, I should say I don't know. I have not any idea.
Q. Give me the best idea you have.
A. I have given you the best idea I have.
Q. What is the best idea you have?
A. About that large. (Measuring with her hands)
Q. That long?
A. Yes.
Q. How wide?
A. I don't know.
Q. Give me the best idea you have.
A. Perhaps about as wide as it was long.
Q. How high?
A. It was not very high.
Q. About how high?
A. (Witness measures with her hands).
Q. About twice the length of your forefinger?
A. I should think so. Not quite.
Q. What was in the box?
A. Nails and some old locks and I don't know but there was a doorknob.
Q. Anything else?
A. I don't remember anything else.
Q. Any lead?
A. Yes, some pieces of tea-lead like.
Q. Foil. What we call tinfoil; the same you use on tea chests?
A. I don't remember seeing any tinfoil; not as thin as that.
Q. Tea chest lead?
A. No sir.
Q. What did you see in shape of lead?
A. Flat pieces of lead a little bigger than that. Some of them were doubled together.
Q. How many?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. Where else did you look beside in the box?
A. I did not look anywhere for lead except on the work bench.
Q. How full was the box?
A. It was not nearly as full as it could have been.
Q. You looked on the bench. Beside that, where else?
A. Nowhere except on the bench.
Q. Did you look for anything else beside lead?
A. No sir.
Q. When you got through looking for lead, did you come down?
A. No sir. I went to the west window over the hay, to the west window, and the curtain was slanted a little. I pulled it down.
Q. What else?
A. Nothing.
Q. That is all you did?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That is the second story of the barn.
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was the window open?
A. I think not.
Q. Hot?
A. Very hot.
Q. How long do you think you were up there?
A. Not more than 15 or 20 minutes, I should not think.
Q. Should you think what you have told me would occupy four minutes?
A. Yes, because I ate some pears up there.
Q. Do you think all you have told me would take you four minutes?
A. I ate some pears up there.
Q. I asked you to tell me all you did.
A. I told you all I did.
Q. Do you mean to say you stopped your work and then, additional to that, sat still and ate some pears?
A. While I was looking out of the window, yes sir.
Q. Will you tell me all you did in the second story of the barn?
A. I think I told you all I did that I can remember.
Q. Is there anything else?
A. I told you that I took some pears up from the ground when I went up. I stopped under the pear tree and took some pears up when I went up.
Q. Have you now told me everything you did up in the second story of the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I now call your attention and ask you to say whether all you have told me I don't suppose you stayed there any longer than was necessary?
A. No sir, because it was close.
Q. Can you give me any explanation why all you have told me would occupy more than three minutes?
A. Yes. It would take me more than three minutes.
Q. To look in that box that you have described the size of on the bench and put down the curtain and then get out as soon as you conveniently could; would you say you were occupied in that business 20 minutes?
A. I think so because I did not look at the box when I first went up.
Q. What did you do?
A. I ate my pears.
Q. Stood there eating the pears, doing nothing?
A. I was looking out of the window.
Q. Stood there looking out of the window, eating the pears?
A. I should think so.
Q. How many did you eat?
A. Three, I think.
Q. You were feeling better than you did in the morning?
A. Better than I did the night before.
Q. You were feeling better than you were in the morning?
A. I felt better in the morning than I did the night before.
Q. That is not what I asked you. You were then, when you were in that hay loft, looking out the window and eating three pears, feeling better, were you not, than you were in the morning when you could not eat any breakfast?
A. I never eat any breakfast.
Q. You did not answer my question and you will, if I have to put it all day. Were you then when you were eating those three pears in that hot loft, looking out that closed window, feeling better than you were in the morning when you ate no breakfast?
A. I was feeling well enough to eat the pears.
Q. Were you feeling better than you were in the morning?
A. I don't think I felt very sick in the morning, only Yes, I don't know but I did feel better. As I say, I don't know whether I ate any breakfast or not or whether I ate a cookie.
Q. Were you then feeling better than you did in the morning?
A. I don't know how to answer you because I told you I felt better in the morning anyway.
Q. Do you understand my question? My question is whether, when you were in the loft of that barn, you were feeling better than you were in the morning when you got up?
A. No, I felt about the same.
Q. Were you feeling better than you were when you told your mother you did not care for any dinner?
A. No sir, I felt about the same.
Q. Well enough to eat pears, but not well enough to eat anything for dinner?
A. She asked me if I wanted any meat.
Q. I ask you why you should select that place, which was the only place which would put you out of sight of the house, to eat those three pears in?
A. I cannot tell you any reason.
Q. You observe that fact, do you not? You have put yourself in the only place perhaps, where it would be impossible for you to see a person going into the house?
A. Yes sir, I should have seen them from the front window.
Q. From anywhere in the yard?
A. No sir, not unless from the end of the barn.
Q. Ordinarily in the yard you could see them and in the kitchen where you had been, you could have seen them?
A. I don't think I understand.
Q. When you were in the kitchen, you could see persons who came in at the back door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you were in the yard, unless you went around the corner of the house, you could see them come in at the back door?
A. No sir, not unless I was at the corner of the barn. The minute I turned, I could not.
Q. What was there?
A. A little jog, like. The walk turns.
Q. I ask you again to explain to me why you took those pears from the pear tree?
A. I did not take them from the pear tree.
Q. From the ground, wherever you took them from. I thank you for correcting me. Going into the barn, going upstairs into the hottest place in the barn, in the rear of the barn, the hottest place, and there standing and eating those pears that morning?
A. I beg your pardon. I was not in the rear of the barn. I was in the other end of the barn that faced the street.
Q. Where you could see anyone coming into the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you not tell me you could not?
A, Before I went into the barn---at the jog on the outside.
Q. You now say when you were eating the pears, you could see the back door?
A. Yes sir.
Q. So nobody could come in at that time without your seeing them?
A. I don't see how they could.
Q. After you got done eating your pears, you began your search?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you did not see into the house?
A. No sir, because the bench is at the other end.
Q. Now, I have asked you over and over again, and will continue the inquiry, whether anything you did at the bench would occupy more than three minutes?
A. Yes, I think it would because I pulled over quite a lot of boards in looking.
Q. To get at the box?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Taking all that, what is the amount of time you think you occupied in looking for that piece of lead which you did not find?
A. Well, I should think perhaps I was 10 minutes.
Q. Looking over those old things?
A. Yes sir, on the bench.
Q. Now can you explain why you were 10 minutes doing it?
A. No, only that I can't do anything in a minute.
Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Opened the sitting room door and went into the sitting room; or pushed it open. It was not latched.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I found my father and rushed to the foot of the stairs.
Q. What were you going into the sitting room for?
A. To go upstairs.
Q. What for?
A. To sit down.
Q. What had become of the ironing?
A. The fire had gone out.
Q. I thought you went out because the fire was not hot enough to heat the flats.
A. I thought it would burn, but the fire had not caught from the few sparks.
Q. So you gave up the ironing and was going upstairs?
A. Yes sir, I thought I would wait till Maggie got dinner and heat the flats again.
Q. When you saw your father, where was he?
A. On the sofa.
Q. What was his position?
A. Lying down.
Q Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes, that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house. I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came in, I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs?
A. No sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says, "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can. I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You went into the room?
A. No sir.
Q. Looked in at the door?
A. I opened the door and rushed back.
Q. Saw his face?
A. No, I did not see his face because he was all covered with blood.
Q. You saw where the face was bleeding?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see the blood on the floor?
A. No sir.
Q. You saw his face covered with blood?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see his eye-ball hanging out?
A. No sir.
Q. See the gashes where his face was laid open?
A. No sir.
Q. Nothing of that kind?
A. No sir. (WITNESS COVERS HER FACE WITH HER HAND FOR A MINUTE OR TWO, THEN EXAMINATION IS RESUMED.)
Q. Do you know of any employment that would occupy your mother for the two hours between nine and 11 in the front room?
A. Not unless she was sewing.
Q. If she had been sewing you would have heard the machine.
A. She did not always use the machine.
Q. Did you see or were there found anything to indicate that she was sewing up there?
A. I don't know. She had given me a few weeks before some pillow cases to make.
Q. My question is not that. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she had done any sewing in that room that morning?
A. I don't know. I was not allowed in that room. I did not see it.
Q. Was that the room where she usually sewed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever know of her using that room for sewing?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When?
A. Whenever she wanted to use the machine.
Q. When she did not want to use the machine, did you know she used that room for sewing?
A. Not unless she went up to sew a button on, or something.
Q. She did not use it as a sitting room?
A. No sir.
Q. Leaving out the sewing, do you know of anything else that would occupy her for two hours in that room?
A. No, not if she had made the bed up and she said she had when I went down.
Q. Assuming the bed was made?
A. I don't know anything.
Q. Did she say she had done the work?
A. She said she had made the bed and was going to put on the pillow cases, about 9 o'clock.
Q. I ask you now again, remembering that---.
A. I told you that yesterday.
Q. Never mind about yesterday. Tell me all the talk you had with your mother when she came down in the morning.
A. She asked me how I felt. I said I felt better but did not want any breakfast. She said what kind of meat did I want for dinner. I said I did not want any. She said she was going out; somebody was sick, and she would get the dinner, get the meat, order the meat. And I think she said something about the weather being hotter, or something; and I don't remember that she said anything else. I said to her, 'Won't you change your dress before you go out?" She had on an old one. She said, "No, this is good enough." That is all I can remember.
Q. In this narrative you have not again said anything about her having said that she had made the bed.
A. I told you that she said she made the bed.
Q. In this time saying, you did not put that in. I want that conversation that you had with her that morning. I beg your pardon again. In this time of telling me, you did not say anything about her having received a note.
A. I told you that before.
Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother when she came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything. What kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot and then the room was done. She says, "I have had a note from somebody that is sick and I am going out and I will get the dinner at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did.
Q. She said she had had a note?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You told me yesterday you never saw the note.
A. No sir, I never did.
Q. You looked for it?
A. No sir, but the rest have.
Q. She did not say where she was going?
A. No sir.
Q. Does she usually tell you where she is going?
A. She does not generally tell me.
Q. Did she say when she was coming back?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you know that Mr. Morse was coming to dinner?
A. No sir, I knew nothing about him.
Q. Was he at dinner the day before?
A. Wednesday noon? I don't know. I didn't see him. I don't think he was.
Q. Were you at dinner?
A. I was in the house. I don't know whether I went down to dinner or not. I was not feeling well.
Q. Whether you ate dinner or not?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before?
A. No sir, I don't remember because I don't know whether I was down myself or not.
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think---I don't know---whether I had any tea or not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I'm not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose.
A. Yes sir. I mean nobody but the family.
Q. Did you have an apron on Thursday?
A. Did I what?
Q. Have an apron on Thursday.
A. No sir, I don't think I did.
Q. Do you remember whether you did or not?
A. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think I did.
Q. You had aprons, of course?
A. I had aprons, yes sir.
Q. Will you try and think whether you did or not?
A. I don't think I did.
Q. Will you try and remember?
A. I had no occasion for an apron on that morning.
Q. If you can remember, I wish you would.
A. I don't remember.
Q. That is all the answer you can give me about that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you have any occasion to use the axe or hatchet?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you know where they were?
A. I knew there was an old axe down cellar. That is all I knew.
Q. Did you know anything about a hatchet down cellar?
A. No sir.
Q. Where was the old axe down cellar?
A. The last time I saw it, it was stuck in the old chopping block.
Q. Was that the only axe or hatchet down cellar?
A. It was all I knew about.
Q. When was the last time you knew of it?
A. When our farmer came to chop wood.
Q. When was that?
A. I think a year ago last winter. I think there was so much wood on hand, he did not come last winter.
Q. Do you know of anything that would occasion the use of an axe or hatchet?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know of anything that would occasion the getting of blood on an axe or hatchet down cellar?
A. No sir.
Q. I do not say there was, but assuming an axe or hatchet was found down cellar with blood on it?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know whether there was a hatchet down there before this murder?
A. I don't know.
Q. You are not able to say your father did not own a hatchet?
. A. I don't know whether he did or not.
Q. Did you know that there was found at the foot of the stairs a hatchet and axe?
A. No sir, I did not.
Q. Assume that is so, can you give me any explanation of how they came there?
A. No sir.
Q. Assume they had blood on them, can you give any occasion for there being blood on them?
A. No sir.
Q. Can you tell of the killing of any animal? Or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them?
A. No sir. He killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June.
Q. What with?
A. I don't know, but I thought he wrung their necks.
Q. What made you think so?
A. I think he said so.
Q. Did anything else make you think so?
A. All but three or four had their heads on. That is what made me think so.
Q. Did all of them come into the house?
A. I think so.
Q. Those that came into the house were all headless?
A. Two or three had them on.
Q. Were any with their heads off?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Cut off or twisted off?
A. I don't know which.
Q. How did they look?
A. I don't know, their heads were gone, that is all.
Q. Did you tell anybody they looked as though they were twisted off?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. The skin, I think, was very tender. I said, "Why are these heads off?" I think I remember of telling somebody that he said they twisted off.
Q. Did they look as if they were cut off?
A. I don't know. I did not look at that particularly.
Q. Is there anything else besides that that would lead, in your opinion so far as you can remember, to the finding of instruments in the cellar with blood on them?
A. I know of nothing else that was done.
Q. (By Judge Blaisdell) Was there any effort made by the witness to notify Mrs. Borden of the fact that Mr. Borden was found?
Q. (By Knowlton) Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed?
A. No sir. When I found him, I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so---.
Q. At any time, did you say anything about her to anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. To the effect that she was out?
A. I told father when he came in.
Q. After your father was killed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say you thought she was upstairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look upstairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search upstairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." That is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
Q. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look"
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.
Q. When you went out to the barn, did you leave the door shut, the screen door?
A. I left it shut.
Q. When you came back did you find it shut or open?
A. No sir, I found it open.
Q. Can you tell me anything else that you did that you have not told me, during your absence from the house?
A. No sir.
Q. Can you tell me when it was that you came back from the barn, what time it was?
A. I am not sure, but I think it must have been after 10, because I think he told me he did not think he should go out until 10. When he went out, I did not look at the clock to see what time it was. I think he did not go out until 10, or a little after. He was not gone so very long.
Q. Will you give me the best judgment you can as to the time your father got back? If you have not any, it is sufficient to say so.
A. No sir, I have not any.
Q. Can you give me any judgment as to the length of time that elapsed after he came back and before you went to the barn?
A. I went right out to the barn.
Q. How soon after he came back?
A. I should think not less than five minutes. I saw him taking off his shoes and lying down. It only took him two or three minutes to do it. I went right out.
Q. When he came into the house, did he not go into the dining room first?
A. I don't know.
Q. And there sit down?
A. I don't know.
Q. Why don't you know?
A. Because I was in the kitchen.
Q. It might have happened and you not have known it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You heard the bell ring?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you knew when he came in?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You did not see him?
A. No sir.
Q. When did you first see him?
A. I went into the sitting room and he was there. I don't know whether he had been in the dining room before or not.
Q. What made you go into the sitting room?
A. Because I wanted to ask him a question.
Q. What question?
A. Whether there was any mail for me.
Q. Did you not ask him that question in the dining room?
A. No sir, I think not,
Q. Was he not in the dining room sitting down?
A. I don't remember his being in the dining room sitting down.
Q. At that time, was not Maggie washing the windows in the sitting room?
A. I thought I asked him for the mail in the sitting room. I am not sure.
Q. Was not the reason he went into the dining room because she was in the sitting room washing windows?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he not go upstairs to his room before he sat down in the sitting room?
A. I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
A. I don't know whether he had it. It was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don't you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
A. No sir.
Q. You don't remember anything of that kind?
A. No sir. I do not think he did go upstairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
A. I did not see him.
Q. You swear you did not see him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You were either in the kitchen or sitting room all the time?
A. Yes sir.
Q. He could not have gone up without he had gone through the kitchen?
A. No sir.
Q. When you did go into the sitting room to ask him a question, if it was the sitting room, what took place then?
A. I asked him if he had any mail. He said, "None for you." He had a letter in his hand. I supposed it was for himself. I asked him how he felt. He said, "About the same." He said he should lie down. I asked him if he thought he should have a nap. He said he should try to. I asked him if he wanted the window left the way it was or if he felt a draught. He said, "No." That is all.
Q. Did you help him about lying down?
A. No sir.
Q. Fix his pillows or head?
A. No sir. I did not touch the sofa.
Q. Did he lie down before you left the room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did anything else take place?
A. Not that I remember of.
Q. Was he then under medical treatment?
A. No sir.
Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of?
A. No sir. He took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine. It was what we gave him.
Q. What was it?
A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea.
Q. When was that?
A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday. I think some time Wednesday noon and I think the tea Wednesday night. Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor.
Q. When did you first consult Mr. Jennings?
A. I can't tell you that. I think my sister sent for him. I don't know.
Q. Was it you or your sister?
A. My sister.
Q. You did not send for him?
A. I did not send for him. She said did we think we should have him. I said do as she thought best. I don't know when he came first.
Q. Now, tell me once more, if you please, the particulars of that trouble that you had with your mother four or five years ago.
A. Her father's house on Ferry Street was for sale-...
Q. Whose father's house?
A Mrs. Borden's father's house. She had a stepmother and a half-sister, Mrs. Borden did, and this house was left to the stepmother and a half-sister, if I understand it right, and the house was for sale. The stepmother, Mrs. Oliver Gray, wanted to sell it and my father bought out the Widow Gray's share. She did not tell me and he did not tell me, but some outsiders said he gave it to her; put it in her name. I said if he gave that to her, he ought to give us something. Told Mrs. Borden so. She did not care anything about the house herself. She wanted it so this half-sister could have a home because she had married a man that was not doing the best he could and she thought her sister was having as very hard time and wanted her to have a home. And we always thought she persuaded father to buy it. At any rate, he did buy it and I am quite sure she did persuade him. I said what he did for her, he ought to do for his own children. So, he gave us grandfather's house. That was all the trouble we ever had.
Q. You have not stated any trouble yet between you and her.
A. I said there was feeling four or five years ago when I stopped calling her mother. I told you that yesterday.
Q. That is all there is to it then?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You had no words with your stepmother then?
A. I talked with her about it and said what he did for her, he ought to do for us. That is all the words we had.
Q. That is the occasion of his giving you the house that you sold back to him?
A Yes sir.
Q. Did your mother leave any property?
A I don't know.
Q. Your own mother?
A No sir, not that I know of.
Q. Did you ever see that thing? (Pointing to a wooden club)
A. Yes, I think I have.
Q. What is it?
A. My father used to keep something similar to this, that looked very much like it, under his bed. He whittled it out himself at the farm one time.
Q. How long since you have seen it?
A. I have not seen it in years.
Q. How many years?
A I could not tell you. I should think 10 or 15 years. Not since I was quite a little girl, if that is the one. I can't swear that it is the one. It was about that size.
Q. (Marks it with a cross) How many years, 10 or 15?
A. I was a little girl. It must have been as much as that.
Q. When was the last time the windows were washed before that day?
A. I don't know.
Q. Why don't you know?
A. Because I had nothing to do with the work downstairs.
Q. When was the last time that you ate with the family that you can swear to before your mother was killed?
A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday. That is, what little we ate. We sat down at the table and I think I sat down to the table with them Wednesday night, but I am not sure.
Q. All day Tuesday?
A. I was down at the table.
Q. I understand you to say you did not come down to breakfast.
A. That was Wednesday morning.
Q. I understood you to say that you did not come down to breakfast.
A. I came down but I did not eat breakfast with them. I did not eat any breakfast. Frequently, I would go into the dining room and sit down to the table with them and not eat any breakfast.
Q. Did you give to the officer the same skirt you had on the day of the tragedy?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you know whether there was any blood on the skirt?
A. No sir.
Q. Assume that there was, do you know how it came there?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you any explanation of how it might come there?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you know there was any blood on the skirt you gave them?
A. No sir.
Q. Assume that there was. Can you give any explanation of how it came there on the dress skirt?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you offered any?
A. No sir.
Q Have you ever offered any?
A. No sir.
Q. Have you said it came from flea bites?
A. On the petticoats, I said there was a flea bite. I said it might have been. You said you meant the dress skirt.
Q. I did. Have you offered any explanation how that came there?
A. I told those men that were at the house that I had had fleas. That is all.
Q. Did you offer that as an explanation?
A. I said that was the only explanation that I knew of.
Q. Assuming that the blood came from the outside, can you give any explanation of how it came there?
A. No sir.
Q. You cannot now?
A. No sir.
Q. What shoes did you have on that day?
A. A pair of ties.
Q. What color?
A. Black.
Q. Will you give them to the officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Where are they?
A. At home.
Q. What stockings did you have on that day?
A. Black.
Q. Where are they?
A. At home.
Q. Have they been washed?
A. I don't know.
Q. Will you give them to the officer?
A Yes sir.
Q. The window you was at is the window that is nearest the street in the barn?
A Yes sir, the west window.
Q. The pears you ate you got from under the tree in the yard?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How long were you under the pear tree?
A. I think I was under there very nearly four or five minutes. I stood looking around. I looked up at the pigeon house that they have closed up. It was no more than five minutes, perhaps not as long. I can't say sure.
Q. (By Judge Blaisdell) Was this witness on Thursday morning in the front hall of front stairs or front chamber, any part of the house at all?
Q. What do you say to that?
A. I had to come down the front stairs to get into the kitchen.
Q. When you came down first?
A Yes sir.
Q. Were you afterwards?
A. No sir.
Q. Not at all?
A Except the few minutes I went up with the clean clothes and I had to come back again.
Q. That you now say was before Mr. Borden went away?
A Yes sir.

(HEARING ADJOURNED. LIZZIE BORDEN RECALLED AUGUST 11th)
Q. Is there anything you would like to correct in your previous testimony?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you buy a dress pattern in New Bedford?
A. A dress pattern?
Q. Yes.
A. I think I did.
Q. Where is it?
A. It is at home.
Q. Where?
A. Where at home?
Q. Please.
A. It is in a trunk.
Q. In your room?
A. No sir, in the attic.
Q. Not made up?
A. Oh, no sir.
Q. Where did you buy it?
A. I don't know the name of the store.
Q. On the principal street there?
A. I think it was on the street that Hutchinson's book store is on. I am not positive.
Q. What kind of a one was it, please?
A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe and a blue stripe corded gingham.
Q. Your attention has already been called to the circumstances of going into the drug store of Smith's on the corner of Columbia and Main Streets, by some officer, has it not, on the day before the tragedy?
A. I don't know whether some officer has asked me. Somebody has spoken of it to me. I don't know who it was.
Q. Did that take place?
A. It did not.
Q. Do you know where the drugstore is?
A. I don't.
Q. Did you go into any drugstore and inquire for prussic acid?
A. I did not.
Q. Where were you on Wednesday morning that you remember?
A. At home.
Q. All the time?
A. All day, until Wednesday night.
Q. Nobody there but your parents and yourself and the servant?
A. Why, Mr. Morse came sometime in the afternoon, or at noon time, I suppose. I did not see him.
Q. He did not come to see you?
A. No sir. I did not see him.
Q. He did not come until afternoon anyway, did he?
A. I don't think he did. I'm not sure.
Q. Did you dine with the family that day?
A. I was downstairs, yes sir. I did not eat any breakfast with them.
Q. Did you go into the drugstore for any purpose whatever?
A. I did not.
Q. I think you said yesterday that you did not go into the room where your father lay, after he was killed, on the sofa, but only looked in at the door.
A. I looked in. I did not go in.
Q. You did not step into the room at all?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you ever, after your mother was found killed, any more than go through it to go upstairs?
A. When they took me upstairs, they took me through that room.
Q. Otherwise than that, did you go into it?
A. No sir.
Q. Let me refresh your memory. You came down in the night to get some water with Miss Russell, along towards night, or in the evening, to get some water with Miss Russell?
A. Thursday night? I don't remember it.
Q. Don't you remember coming down some time to get some toilet water?
A. No sir. There was no toilet water downstairs.
Q. Or to empty the slops?
A. I don't know whether I did Thursday evening or not. I am not sure.
Q. You think it may have been some other evening?
A. I don't remember coming down with her to do such a thing. I may have. I can't tell whether it was Thursday evening or any other evening.
Q. Other than that, if it did take place, you don't recollect going into that room for any purpose at any time?
A. No sir.
Q. Was the dress that was given the officers the same dress that you wore that morning?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The India silk?
A. No sir. It is not an India silk. It is silk and linen. Some call it Bengaline silk.
Q. Something like that dress there? (Pongee)
A. No, it was not like that.
Q. Did you give to the officer the same shoes and stockings that you wore?
A. I did, sir.
Q. Do you remember where you took them off?
A. I wore the shoes ever after that, all around the house Friday and all day Thursday and all day Friday and Saturday until I put on my shoes for the street.
Q. That is to say you wore them all that day, Thursday, until you took them off for the night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you tell us yesterday all the errand that you had at the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You have nothing to add to what you said?
A. No sir.
Q. Miss Borden, of course you appreciate the anxiety that everybody has to find the author of this tragedy, and the questions that I put to you have been in that direction. I now ask you if you can furnish any other fact, or give any other, even suspicion, that will assist the officers in any way in this matter.
A. About two weeks ago---.
Q. Was you going to tell the occurrence about the man that called at the house?
A. No sir. It was after my sister went away. I came home from Miss Russell's one night and as I came up, I always glanced towards the side door. As I came along by the carriage-way, I saw a shadow on the side steps. I did not stop walking, but I walked slower. Somebody ran down the steps, around the east end of the house. I thought it was a man because I saw no skirts and I was frightened, and, of course, I did not go around to see. I hurried in the front door as fast as I could and locked it.
Q. What time of the night was that?
A. I think about a quarter of 9. It was not after 9 o'clock, anyway.
Q. Do you remember what night that was?
A. No sir, I don't. I saw somebody run around the house once before last winter.
Q. One thing at a time. Do you recollect about how long that occurrence was?
A. It was after my sister went away. She has been away two weeks today, so it must have been within two weeks.
Q. Two weeks today? Or two weeks at the time of the murder?
A. Is not today Thursday?
A. Yes, but that would be three weeks. I thought you said the day your father was murdered, she had been away just two weeks.
A. Yes, she had.
Q. Then, it would be three weeks today your sister went away. A week has elapsed.
A. Yes, it would be three weeks.
Q. You mean it was some time within the two weeks that your sister was away?
A. Yes. I had forgotten that a whole week had passed since the affair.
Q. Different from that, you cannot state?
A. No sir. I don't know what the date was.
Q. This form, when you first saw it, was on the steps of the backdoor?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Went down the rear steps?
A. Went down toward the barn.
Q. Around the back side of the house?
A. Disappeared in the dark. I don't know where they went.
Q. Have you ever mentioned that before?
A. Yes sir, I told Mr. Jennings.
Q. To any officer?
A. I don't think I have, unless I told Mr. Hanscomb.
Q. What was you going to say about last winter?
A. Last winter when I was coming home from church one Thursday evening, I saw somebody run around the house again. I told my father of that.
Q. Did you tell your father of this last one?
A. No sir.
Q. Of course you could not identify who it was either time?
A. No, I could not identify who it was, but it was not a very tall person.
Q. Have you sealskin sacks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Where are they?
A. Hanging in a large white bag in the attic, each one separate.
Q. Put away for the summer?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Do you ever use prussic acid on your sacks?
A. Acid? No sir, I don't use anything on them.
Q. Is there anything else you can suggest that even amounts to anything whatever?
A. I know of nothing else, except the man who came and father ordered him out. That is all I know.
Q. That you told about the other day?
A. I think I did, yes sir.
Q. You have not been able to find that man?
A. I have not. I don't know whether anybody else has or not.
Q. Have you caused search to be made for him?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When was the offer of reward made for the detection of the criminals?
A. I think it was made Friday.
Q. Who suggested that?
A. We suggested it ourselves and asked Mr. Buck if he did not think it was a good plan.
Q. Whose suggestion was it, yours or Emma's?
A. I don't remember. I think it was mine.

(THE EXAMINATION ENDED)

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

A few possible points of interest?

1) Lizzie had the right to defend herself, regardless as to how she may have answered some questions, statements or crafty insinuations made by the prosecutor.

2) Ha.... Clearly, Lizzie was smarter than the prosecutor!

3) There was no need for the prosecutor to continuously refer to Lizzie's step-mother as her "mother". She was NOT Lizzie's mother and never should have been referred to as such. Lizzie was a woman within her own right, fully capable of discerning whether or not she 'liked' her step-mother. Where is it written that a step-daughter has to 'like' or love her stepmother or cannot have disagreements with her? This does not mean that Lizzie killed her.

4) There was a 'burn the witch at the stakes' mentality back in those days. It would be worthwhile to know more about the history of Mr. and Mrs. Borden. Mr. Borden was reputed to have made some serious enemies. Also, there was serious conflict in the step-mothers' family and other extended family concerning a real estate matter that created bitter feelings.

All of these issues, and others, should have been investigated in depth but we don't see any history of this. I wouldn't just write Lizzie off as being the murderer or having knowledge as to who the murderer(s) might have been just based on what we have available to us now.

john said...

Excellent.

C5H11ONO said...

Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother when she came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything. What kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot and then the room was done. She says, "I have had a note from somebody that is sick and I am going out and I will get the dinner at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did.


--From her responses I can tell that Abby was speaking to her and she was very terse. It was she who had a problem with Abby, not both disliking each other. She even proves it when she describes her conversation with her. Abby "said" and she "told".

lgjproduct said...

John, I have been wondering the same thing. Of course, context indicates that the doors were kept locked in this house all the time, and that Maggie was indeed washing windows.

Shelley Matz said...
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Shelley Matz said...

A few things…

First there has been a lot of talk that there was sexual abuse. And that may also be why the girls never married.


Then.... maggie was not the maids name.... It is Bridgett. Maggie was the prior maid and Lizzie called Bridget by the name Maggie. ODD and makes me wonder if they were close to the real Maggie... Like a mother figure...

Then, for those that think she is innocent… It’s possible. But the home was always locked. At the time Mrs Borden was murdered, the maid was outside of the home and Lizzie was in the home. Then, for most of the time frame in which Mr Borden was killed, Lizzie claims she was standing in the barn (despite being summer and VERY HOT) looking out the window towards the house.

I find that nearly impossible for this person to be totally undetected. But ok maybe. Then this person would have had to hide out in this home for about an hour and a half, again being undetected by Maggie and Lizzie walking around and up and down….. And then killed the dad. And had time to clean up any blood that may have dropped and well, any on him and got out of the home again, undetected…..

Seems like a stretch.

I think Lizzie did it.

And there are a couple major contradictions. Not just in Lizzies statements herself, but that of what Maggie said vs Lizzie.



Shelley Matz said...

CONTRADICTION ONE

Did Lizzie ask anyone to look upstairs for Abby or not
Did Lizzie say Abby was out or that she may have come in.


INQUEST TESTIMONY OF LIZZIE

Q. When you found your father dead, you supposed your mother had gone?
LIZZIE: “I did not know. I said to the people who came in, "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in. I wish you would see if she is in her room."


Then just a few questions later….

Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search upstairs?
LIZZIE: I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." That is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
Q. No sir.

Then a just couple questions later.

Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
LIZZIE: I did not do anything except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look"
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.

Maggie Testimony

MAGGIE: Mrs. Churchill was in the house, and Dr. Bowen. No one else, except Miss Lizzie. She was in the kitchen, and Mrs. Churchill and I went into the dining room, and Dr. Bowen came out from the sitting room and said, "He is murdered; he is murdered." And I says, "Oh, Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go upstairs to see?" I said, "I am not going upstairs alone."

Lizzie Inquest testimony

Q. (By Knowlton) Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed?
LIZZIE: No sir. When I found him, I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so---.
Q. At any time, did you say anything about her to anybody?
LIZZIE: No sir.
Q. To the effect that she was out?
LIZZIE: I told father when he came in.
Q. After your father was killed?
LIZZIE: No sir.
Q. Did you say you thought she was upstairs?
LIZZIE: No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look upstairs?
LIZZIE: No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search upstairs?
LIZZIE: I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." That is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
Q. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
LIZZIE:. No sir.



Testimony of Adelaide

ADELAIDE: “Shortly after, he came out and made some exclamation. Then he turned to me and said, "Addie, come in and see Mr. Borden." I said, "Oh no, Doctor, I don't want to see him. I saw him this morning. I don't want to see him." Later, after the body was covered, I saw his feet. Miss Russell came soon afterwards, and Lizzie said she wished someone would try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started. She led the way, and as I went upstairs, I turned my head to the left, and when I got up so my eyes were level with the front hall, I could see across the floor of the spare room. At the far side, I saw something that looked like the form of a person.”

Shelley Matz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shelley Matz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shelley Matz said...

CONTRADICTION THREE

Then Lizzie insisted she was in the kitchen then entire time before her dad was murdered and never saw her dad go upstairs. Maggie said he went up to his room. Makes me wonder what she was doing at this time.

Lizzie inquest

Q. Did he not go upstairs to his room before he sat down in the sitting room?
LIZZIE: I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
LIZZIE: I don't know whether he had it. It was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don't you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
LIZZIE: No sir.
Q. You don't remember anything of that kind?
LIZZIE: No sir. I do not think he did go upstairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
LIZZIE: I did not see him.
Q. You swear you did not see him?
LIZZIE: Yes sir.
Q. You were either in the kitchen or sitting room all the time?
LIZZIE: Yes sir.
Q. He could not have gone up without he had gone through the kitchen?
LIZZIE: No sir.



Maggie testimony

MAGGIE: “The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden took a key off the mantelpiece and went up the back stairs. When he came downstairs again, I was finished in the sitting room, and I took my hand basin and stepladder into the dining room. I began to wash the dining-room windows.”

Shelley Matz said...

CONTRADICTION FOUR

What did she go to the barn for

LIZZIE INQUEST TESTIMONY

Q. How long was your father in the house before you found him killed?

LIZZIE. I don't know exactly because I went out to the barn. I don't know what time he came home. I don't think he had been home more than 15 or 20 minutes. I am not sure.

*****First the reason was that she needed sinkers. First saying there were some sinkers at the farm then there was not.

Q. Had you any sinkers over there?
LIZZIE: I think there were some. It is so long since I have been there, I think there were some.

Then a couple questions later…

Q. You thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had?
LIZZIE: I thought there were no sinkers at the farm to be had.



Testimony of Maggie

ALICE. …….. Later, when she told us about going to the barn, I asked her, "What did you go to the barn for, Lizzie?" And she said, "I went to get a piece of tin or iron to fix my screen." She said my screen”

Testimony of Adelaide B. Churchill

ADELIADE: “And I said, "Where were you when it happened?" and, she said, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron”

Shelley Matz said...

CONTRADICTION FIVE

The NOTE

Now, to me this note… first it was never found. And as small of a town this was and as much this trial was talked about, I find it odd that the person that sent the note never came forward. Seems a little to convenient for Lizzie. I mean, if her father came home and thought his wife was home, he may have looked for her to speak to her and found the body rather than lay down on the couch to be killed….. But Lizzie made it clear to him she was not home.

But….Maggie stated that generally Abby would tell her if she left. Kinda makes sense since it was her boss technically.

Maggie also stated never heard anyone come to the door to bring the note.

Now the only odd thing is the way Adelaide states it about Maggie is that Maggie knew about the note but I think Maggie was just repeating what Lizzie told her about the note. But it is not totally clear. =



MAGGIE TESTIMONY

Q. Up to the time when Miss Lizzie Borden told her father and told you in reference to the note, had you heard anything about it from anyone?
MAGGIE: No sir, I never did.
Q. Let me ask you if anyone to your knowledge came to that house on the morning of August 4th with a message or a note for Mrs. Borden?
MAGGIE: No sir, I never seen nobody.



Adelaide TESTIMONY

Q. What did Bridget tell you about Mrs. Borden having a note?
ADELAIDE: She said Mrs. Borden had a note to go to see someone that was sick, and she was dusting the sitting room, and she hurried off, and says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."
Q. That was what Bridget told you?
ADELAIDE: Yes sir.
Q. That was not what Lizzie told you?
ADELAIDE: No sir.
Q. Bridget said Mrs. Borden had a note?
ADELAIDE:. Yes.
Q. And she hurried off?
ADELAIDE: Yes sir.
Q. She was dusting the sitting room?
ADELAIDE: Yes sir.
Q. And Bridget says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does"?
ADELAIDE: Bridget said—
Q. Bridget said that?
ADELAIDE:. Yes sir.
Q. That was not what Lizzie said?
ADELAIDE:. No sir.
Q. Now, you have got that right, haven't you? No doubt about that?
ADELAIDE: That Bridget said that "Mrs.. Borden had a note to go to see someone that was sick. She was dusting in the sitting room. She hurried off. She didn't tell me where she was going. She generally does”

Shelley Matz said...

Was missing part of 2 so reposting

CONTRADICTION TWO

Where was she when her dad got home? Now keep in mind, if she was upstairs… The bedroom door of the room Abby was killed in was right there by the top of the stairs. And even her neighbor who went up and looked could see the body just going up the stairs and did not need to enter the room. I would think she would be better off saying she was downstairs.

Lizzie inquest

LIZZIE: “I think he came to the front door and rang the bell and I think Maggie let him in and he said he had forgotten his key.”

A few questions later….

LIZZIE: He came home after I came downstairs.
Q. You were not upstairs when he came home?
LIZZIE: I was not upstairs when he came home, no sir.

A few more questions later…

Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room upstairs.
Q. Then you were upstairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think so.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were upstairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.



Maggie testimony

MAGGIE: “Then I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door but could not; so I went to the front door and unlocked it. The spring lock was locked. I unbolted the door and it was locked with a key; there were three locks. I said "pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, upstairs. Her father was out there on the doorstep. She was upstairs. She must have been either in the entry or at the top of the stairs, I can't tell which. Mr. Borden and I didn't say a word as he came in. I went back to my window washing; he came into the sitting room and went into the dining room”







Anonymous said...

Very interesting, thanks for posting this. I look forward to more, if there is any.

I get confused sometimes reading the questions and answers. Whether Lizzie is guilty or not (I've always thought she was), I think it could actually become confusing the way he keeps asking the same questions over and over, but in different ways, especially about breakfast and eating and mundane things like that; sometimes just reading, I don't fully know which day/time he's talking about.

Anonymous said...

If you look up Lizzie Borden on Wikipedia, I don't know how reliable they are, it said that there was a break-in the year prior and that's why the father insisted on always having the doors locked. It also said that Lizzie was put on morphine after the murders and she was under the influence of that during the trial, and it also said that the DA was very harsh with her - we can't see that in the transcripts, it seems like she was calm and collected and the DA was sort of flustered. I wonder why, if it was true, Lizzie didn't bring up the break-in.

Anonymous said...

She backtracks her testimony quite a bit and the prosecuter does not clarify or point out the discrepancies. She claims to be upstairs and downstairs when her dad returns. She claims she stayed in her room all day and didnt speak to the guest in the adjoining room because she felt too ill, but went out in the evening to visit a friend.. She claims she was eating pears in the kitchen when her dad came home, then later stated she was standing 20 minutes eating the same pears in the hottest part of the barn. She was too ill to eat, but she ate. She went to get fishing sinker in some accounts, tin foil in others. She's just one lie after another.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how old Lizzie was the first time Mr.Morose came to visit. He set off alarm bells for her.

Randie said...


Q. When she dusted, did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.

Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just came in the back door with the long pole, brush and put the brush on the handle. and getting her pail of water. She was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.
------------------------------

1. During that time period every cleaning woman wore something on their head when dusting a home. Dust would have covered their hair. Abby Borden was found without something on her head. Point being, she had not been dusting. Lizzie lied.

2. She drops the pronoun before "just came in the back door". She didn't want to own knowing where Maggie (Brigget) was. Reason being: In Brigget's trial testimony on the witness stand she stated clear that Lizzie TOLD her to go clean all the windows. Brigget said she had gotten ill after breakfast and went out back and vomited (she was gone 10-15 minutes). The last thing she probably wanted to do was go scrub tons of windows after feeling ill and vomiting.

This is why LB added the extra information "Mrs. Borden wanted her to." (making it sensitive).

LB wanted Brigget out of the house. In her witness testimony Brigget said that when she was done washing windows LB suggested that she go visit a certain department store that was having sales. Brigget didn't feel like it. She was ill and wanted to go upstairs and lay down. Which she did. Again, LB wanted her out of the house.

Randie said...


Q. Did you get any breakfast that morning?
A. I don't know whether I ate half a banana. I don't think I did.

Q. You drank no tea or coffee that morning?
A. No sir.

Q. And ate no cookies?

Really?

This portion of the interview was very poorly conducted.


A. I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.
-----------------------

In Maggie's (Brigget's) testimony on the witness stand she stated clear that LB ate cookies and had coffee after Andrew, Abby, and John left the kitchen.

Why does LB lie???

Randie said...

LB claims she came home at 9:00 pm and locked up the house cause it was her "business" or her assigned job. She lied.

On the Witness stand Brigget told the jury that on the evening of Wednesday August 3rd, she went out to see a friend on Third Street, returning at roughly 10:00 in the evening. A lamp had been left on in the kitchen for her, and she proceeded to the ice chest from which she poured herself a glass of milk. This may have some significance, since Brigget had not yet suffered the ill feelings that had so recently besieged the other members of the Borden household. She told them fter she woke up on the morning of August 4th, she began to feel a dull headache. Later that morning, she would be vomiting in the backyard, but it is unclear if her illness was initiated by her late night glass of milk.

Brigget was the last one in that evening. LB lied.

Randie said...

According to Bridget's testimony, after the poor girl had finally finished her retching, she came back inside to find Abby Borden walking about with a feather duster, giving her orders to wash the downstairs windows, both inside and out.

Randie said...

During Brigget's testimony she said she had went through the dining room and sitting room, closing the windows in preparation for the cleaning, and then went into the cellar to fetch a pail of water. She next went to the barn to get the handle for the brush. Armed with her cleaning materials (which also included a step-ladder), Brigget went to the south side of the house to wash the sitting-room windows there, stopping for a few moments to CHAT with the girl from the Kelly house, just to the south of the Borden home. Brigget then proceeded to clean the windows of the sitting-room, the parlor and the dining room, running to the barn about six or seven times to refresh her pail of water. She entered the house one more time to fetch a dipper for rinsing from the kitchen closet, BUT DIDN'T SEE ANYONE while she was inside. It was during all this activity by Brigget that Abby Borden may have been murdered by the nineteen hatchet blows to the head that she had received in the upstairs guestroom by LB.

kimisan03 said...

@C5H11ONO, you're totally right about the said/told comments, and did you notice that LB changes tenses to the present when she is referring to her step-mother mentioning the note? These transcripts are very old; it could be a typo, but I doubt it.