Tuesday, March 1, 2016

DeOrr Investigator: Death and Cover Up

Most readers have the same conclusion:  parents deceptive because of unintended death, panic, and cover up...Statement Analysis shows deception via withheld information.  Recall the acknowledgement of them being "in trouble" without concern for what the child was going through. 


Philip Klein, a private investigator hired by the extended family of missing toddler DeOrr Kunz Jr., announced Monday that he believes the child was intentionally or accidentally killed while on a camping trip with his parents. He also said (Vernal) DeOrr Kunz, DeOrr’s father, Jessica Mitchell, DeOrr’s mother, and Robert Walton, DeOrr’s grandfather, know more than they are saying about the child’s disappearance.

Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com reporter: Last night you announced you had completed the third phase of your investigation in the disappearance of DeOrr Kunz Jr. Explain what that means.

Philip Klein, Klein Investigations: There were three phases to this investigation so far.
First, we wanted to start the investigation from the ground up. We didn’t want influence from law enforcement, we didn’t want influence from family, we didn’t want influence from anybody. All we knew was there were four people on a mountain and a child went missing.
We went back and rebuilt this case from ground zero. We interviewed probably over 150 witnesses and followed up on, I think, 300 tips.
We have declared it now an accidental death/homicide and we’ve based it on a few things.
I want to go over those things very clearly because there’s a lot of public conjecture at this point.

I want to announce for the first time we, law enforcement and the FBI have interviewed Vernal Kunz (DeOrr Sr.), the father of DeOrr, nine times. He’s been given nine interviews and none of the stories he has told has matched or even been verified.

That is very disturbing for us as investigators. He’s given us a story, and when we go out and try to prove up simple things on the timeline it falls apart quickly.

Eaton: Can you give us examples of the inconsistencies?

Klein: We can’t even match simple things like filling up with gas at a diesel store in Leadore on the day of the event. He clearly says that the gentleman who was pumping the gas actually saw the child. We interviewed the guy who had supposedly seen the child and he comes back and says, ‘I don’t remember seeing a child.’

Simple things like a dog in the back of the pickup – there was no dog.
Little things that investigators look at as simple things Vernal has not been able to verify with us.

As for Jessica, she has given five interviews to law enforcement and none of the stories she’s given us matched. In fact, she changes her story depending upon what day it is and what day we talk with her.

That’s very disturbing to us. We can’t even verify basic information that Vernal tells us and neither of their stories match. It’s not even close, as a matter of fact.
Eyewitnesses that they have listed – from guys that distribute the beer to the clerk at the store to the person that pumped the gas to the basic timeline information – Vernal and Jessica tell us one story but then the witnesses say no, that never happened. Here’s what did happen. 

So we take all of that and we come back to them with, ‘OK, tell us what really happened because all these witnesses you have given us, they don’t match.’
And so they tell us the story and again. We go out and we try to reverify with different witnesses. Then, in some cases, some say, ‘We don’t even know who these people are. Who are you talking about?’
Not only that, it comes down to simple things like they played with DeOrr at the store. We talked to the witnesses before and after who didn’t even see a child (in the store).

It brings concern to us and brings us to the question of why would they lie to us? Why would they not just tell us the truth?

We add that Vernal has gone in for five polygraph tests from different polygraph test administers – state, local and federal government. Vernal not only failed all five but he failed all five in the 99th percentile. That is hugely disturbing to us.

He can’t even pass a non-control question like, “Are you gonna tell us the truth today?” He flunks it and not only does he flunk it, he doesn’t just spike in his polygraph test, it’s like a wave. That disturbs us tremendously.
Then we move to Jessica. Law enforcement gives Jessica four different tests. Jessica failed not only to the 99th percentile but she can’t pass simple control questions. 

That’s not because she’s nervous. She’s able to pass her name, she’s able to pass where she is today, she’s able to pass the certain questions that are no-brainer questions, but doesn’t even come close to what happened to DeOrr or, ‘Are you going to tell the truth today?’ She fails so bad that in my 26 years, I’ve never heard of a person failing that bad.

Today we’re going to announce that there was a cadaver dog interaction with certain equipment at the site and that cadaver dog did hit positive. I can’t go any further than that other than we do have a dog that did hit in the initial two weeks of the primary investigation.

Eaton: This wasn’t up at the reservoir concerning the cremains? (Law enforcement had previously announced cremains were dumped into the reservoir around the time of DeOrr’s disappearance, but said they were unrelated to this case.) 

Klein: I’m not going to discuss where it was or the circumstances around it because it will be an integral part of the prosecution, and I don’t want to the hurt the prosecution, but a cadaver dog did hit. That has never been announced before, but we’re announcing it today because we feel the public needs to know.
I’m also going to announce to you today that Jessica herself has told investigators on our team she knows where the body is but she will not go all the way and finish her story.

This has been very disturbing to us. We have attempted to work with Jessica tremendously. We have offered to fly her to Texas to give her the opportunity to get away from Idaho because she’s scared of some situations. 
I believe some of it is paranoia that has set into her at this point because she knows the walls are closing in around her but I will announce today that Jessica has told our investigators that she knows where the body is, but she won’t go all the way and say more.

That is a huge piece of evidence in this case and we’re very concerned about it. We’ve asked Jessica privately, and now we’re asking her publicly to come in and tell law enforcement about what happened.

Also today we are willing to announce that in our interviews with the grandfather, he did admit to investigators that he believes there was an accident. He will not go all the way and tell the complete truth at this time.
We are willing to announce that Isaac Reinwand has given us some statements that we are vetting at this time. As soon as we’re done vetting those statements, there there may be a further announcement from law enforcement. 

Eaton: When Jessica says she knows where the body is, has she given you any suggestions or tips?

Klein: She has broken down in an interview with us, and I understand she’s broken down in an interview with law enforcement, that she does know in fact where the body is.

Eaton: Could she be criminally charged now that she’s admitted that she knows where the body is?

Klein: I’m a civil investigator, but I see a lot of problems for Jessica and Vernal.
First of all they have been lying to federal agents with the FBI and the task force. 
The second problem on the table is if it was an accident, there would be some laws regarding what they did what the body, not reporting an accident, those sort of things. 
We’re publicly asking Vernal, we’re publicly asking Jessica and we’re publicly asking Jessica’s grandfather, Bob, to let’s bring this to an end.
Enough of lying, enough of trying to mislead investigators, enough of going on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and all these things and trying to mislead the public.
I’m just very frustrated with Vernal, I’m very frustrated with Jessica and I’m very frustrated with their inability to tell the truth. 
I’m frustrated with them trying to mislead investigators not only on our side, but FBI, who you don’t mess with, you be honest with them. And then of course to the fine people in Bonneville County and Lemhi County. They are stuck in the middle of this and are trying to just get them to tell the truth.

Eaton: When investigators confront them about their inconsistencies, what’s their response? Do they double down, or does the story change?

Klein: The story changes. They don’t ever double down. It goes off into a world that you – you know, you can’t be dumb all the time. Even things in the timeline such as where was the blanket, where was the sippy cup – nobody can tell the truth.
Quite frankly, the stories all break down at 8 o’clock in the morning. The only time their stories are true and correct and we can verify is the night before and then after the 911 call. Everything can not be verified between 8 o’clock in the morning and 2:26 in the afternoon when the 911 call was made – we can’t verify anything. I mean nothing. Zero. Doughnut hole.

Eaton: Where does the investigation go from here?

Klein: We’re going to Phase 4 of this case. It’s the actual ground hunt. We know an area that we will be going into. We will probably be up there with different teams within the next 30 days. 
We do have those places we’re going to hunt under surveillance to make sure nobody comes in and nobody goes out of those areas. 

Eaton: Is there anything you’d like to add?

Klein: The people of Idaho Falls and Lemhi County should be absolutely ecstatic with the law enforcement – from the FBI to the sheriff’s department – these guys are dedicated people.
On behalf of my nine investigators, I’d just like to say thank you to the people of Idaho.

I mostly hope that Vernal and Jessica and their families take a step back. They are very protective over them. They are in denial. You must understand that Vernal’s family and Jessica’s family – they are innocent in this. They are just doing what family members do and they are circling around their loved ones. They are in denial and they need to come out of denial. This is a very, very serious situation.


trustmeigetit said...

SA is right again it seems.

What I like is how straight forward they are. They took 5 polygraphs and failed 5.

Instead of the typical "we are not releasing that" or "they did fine"

It's so easy to just be direct.

Looks like they need more investigators and LE like this.

Looks like at least we know they do know.

trustmeigetit said...

It is starting to seem like the child was not seen alive by anyone on the trip up. Which I know some speculated the accident occurred prior and they staged a scene at the camp site,

Shannon In CA said...

I have thought for a long time that he died before they arrived and was only at the campsite as a body, which they then hid. I don't know whether grandpa knew he was dead. They may have told him he was sleeping and then snuck off with him, only to come back and claim he'd wandered off. That would grandpa plausible deniability. I think he now knows deorr was dead from the start of the trip. Just a theory but it makes sense to me.

TooManyWaWa's said...

I'd like to see these investigators on the Madeleine McCann case....they could have it wrapped up in a few months... But then, the McCanns wouldn't hire genuine investigators like these, would they?

Tania Cadogan said...

Not a chance in hell TooManyWaWa's :)

John Mc Gowan said...

OT Update:

Mother of missing baby professes husband's innocence

VT 5:59 secs

After Ember Graham, the 6-month-old epileptic baby from Happy Valley, went missing from her crib, her father, Matthew, was named the only person of interest in the case. Investigators said his stories did not match up and he was not cooperative.

"The police department painted a picture of how they thought he was or what they believed happened," said Jamielee Graham, 20. "But as his wife I know him and he's not capable of hurting someone, including his own daughter. He's just not."

Order noted.

On July 10, a pacifier was found on the side of the road with Ember's DNA. Graham told Matthew this information, and investigators said that's when he stole a gun and went on the run.

"He was frantic and I think he was just really scared," Graham recalled. "I don't think that he hurt Ember at all. I think that he felt he was going to go to jail no matter what and [deputies] very much painted that picture for him. I think it just scared him really bad and he ran."

Graham added she did not agree with the way Matthew handled the situation at the time.

"I think he definitely made a mistake by running, I wasn't in his head," Graham added. "I don't know why he did what he did."

On July 13, Matthew was killed in a standoff with law enforcement in Dunsmuir.

At the time, Matthew's father said he might have been chasing a lead in Oregon and that's why he ran from law enforcement. Graham said she does not believe that's the case.

"A couple days before we had heard of a baby that was found on a beach that had seizures," said Graham. "The day before [Matthew] ran, we had found out it was not Ember. But that was the only lead I was aware of in Oregon."

The last time Ember was seen alive is in a surveillance video. Matthew carries her into the Happy Valley store then carries her back to his truck and drives in the opposite direction of his house.

Investigators said he was gone for over an hour and could not tell them what he was doing in that time. Investigators said he admitted to being high during that time.

"We still are just so unsure. There's still that hour time that we still don't know what happened," said Graham. "But I do know his behavior at the store, his behavior when he had gotten home was all normal. It was all normal Matthew behavior."

"There were no red flags. I believe with all my heart if something terrible, if something tragic happened, he wouldn't have been able to act the way he did. He was just so normal," she added.

More in VT:


Anonymous said...

Sounds like they have a choice: stay in Idaho and have the paranoia increase, or move to Texas and help increase the paranoia for someone else.

What happened to staring man? Did the woman whose son was lost at the hotel press charges for the idiocy of the former federal marshal?

Anonymous said...

"Philip Klein, a private investigator hired by the extended family of missing toddler DeOrr Kunz Jr., announced Monday that he believes the child was intentionally or accidentally killed while on a camping trip with his parents. He also said (Vernal) DeOrr Kunz, DeOrr’s father, Jessica Mitchell, DeOrr’s mother, and Robert Walton, DeOrr’s grandfather, know more than they are saying about the child’s disappearance."

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand how this is being interpreted by some as Deorr never having been alive on the camping trip.

lynda said...

Can we do analysis on Vernal's statement on FB last night after news released that Jessica knew where his body was. He doesn't use punctuation..verbatim:

Vernal: When Jessica was asked where do you think your son is her response was I think he still on the mountain and we have not found him and there blowing it was out the water

TR (Posting a question for Vernal)- Then why was she saying he was still on the mountain if you all believe he was abducted? Conflicting...

VDK: Like a tactic like are life's are not already destroyed they have nothing to go off to find my son they hit the same wall we did and le and now there just pushing hoping to mentally break us more but issue is I and we don't know more other then my world is missing but they fully believe different and no way for me to prove different so them putting public pressure all it does is further mentally mess us up like having a missing child and not knowing what to do is not hard enough and then of coarse your face book dectives which anyone who believes everything you see and read on fb there judgement is not very credible to begin with if you really think about it

rob said...

It needs to be a law, if you have a child or are in charge of a child, and it goes missing on your watch, you will be held responsible unless/until something different is proven. It doesn't make sense how many children go missing while in physical custody of their parents.
Our society seems to be in total breakdown.

Anonymous said...

I especially like how he emphasized their months of blatant lying and manipulating the public, all the while knowing they'd killed their helpless child.

People lie out of fear as often as they do from arrogance and lack of remorse, but it takes a special kind of feces stain to stand up there crying and begging for the safe return of the child you know you killed.

To keep the public stirred up fruitlessly searching, keep friends' and families' hopes up for a miracle, to continually impede the investigation while misleading the public that LEO are mean, lazy bullies trumping up charges, that is just so far beyond two scared young parents!

If I were a parent or close, longtime friend in their tight circle I would want to look directly into Jessica's eyes (then DeOrr's), and just ask, "How could you?!? All of these months, all of your tears, your anguish wondering who has him, how could you let me search, and hurt, and hope all of these months?

"How could you look straight into my eyes all of this time, adding more lies and more pain?

Anonymous said...

@lynda: I've been recuperating,and just now able to get on here and get caught up with the world (yay, DJ Creato is safely locked up!).

Hadn't a clue at first read who is VDK; I'm used to the father being referred to as DeOrr, Jr.

It only took about five lines into that block of gibberish babble you quoted above to recognize him!

I hope he doesn't need to write anonymous letters for anything. At least he won't need to drum up any fake hate; he's earned himself about a dozen lifetimes' worth of the real deal.

Anonymous said...

"'But as his wife I know him and he's not capable of hurting someone, including his own daughter. He's just not.'

'Order noted.'"
You have to understand that these are her words, her order, her personal subjective dictionary, not his. She is the one speaking here; she is the one who named herself first and their daughter last.

That's the core of SA; using the subject's own words to get to the truth. Analyzing somebody else's interpretation is heading in the exact opposite direction.

Hey Jude said...

It's like watching a car crash - I just can't look away; I want to hear every word PI Klein says, but at the same time I question the ethics of his approach. It seems not right for him to make his findings public, though obviously it is to increase pressure on the parents, as everyone wants this case solved. It's a shame if it is the only way possible to move things forward - his statements might put DeOrr and Jessica at risk of harm from others, or at risk of suicide -it seems a big gamble, so I hope their safety and mental health has also been a consideration.

How can there be no arrest if Jessica has said, as claimed, that she knows where DeOrr's body is? I don't understand. She must want a proper resting place for her son, and to alleviate the family's suffering. Perhaps she cannot deal with her other children learning the truth of what happened to their baby brother, and so they never shall, if she can prevent it. I can't think why else she would not let it be over, if she knows where he is.


I hope Tanisha is bearing up, poor girl. I think the extended family will continue in denial, unless either parent confesses, even if they strongly suspect. It's understandable, in a way - they've already lost little DeOrr. How much more devastating can life for them all become?

Shannon said...

Anonymous @ 10:11

I didn't actually see that line from the investigator since I was reading quickly, on my phone and my new instinct is to defer to the investigator.

My comment that DeOrr was dead before is based on my opinion and the fact that the investigator at one point said he was at the campsite but refused to say whether DeOrr was ever ALIVE at the campsite. Additionally, IIRC, they had been camping in another place before this, I think? So I guess he could've died on that trip and then they moved.

I don't know. It just seems like the story of "we left the kid with grandpa and then he was gone" is just so weird. If the kid died while in the care of grandpa, why not just say that? It's tragic, but anyone could understand it.

The lying just makes me suspicious that they were hiding something from the beginning of the trip, and it wasn't a story concocted after the fact. How convenient that DeOrr was left with a very old, unwell man while the parents went exploring. And then he goes missing. That just sounds like a cover story to me.

And grandpa seems to agree he was supposedly watching DeOrr. So we have all three of them lying? Why? Something is just off. I think the investigator doesn't know what happened exactly. They just know there was a dead body at the campsite (because apparently the dogs did hit on something). I just think it's so weird that the parents and grandpa are all lying and Isaac (the friend) refuses to talk at all, until recently. And he's not listed as a suspicious person, you notice. What the heck does Isaac know that makes him a necessary witness but NOT a suspicious person.

This story isn't over. Not by a long shot. Guessing whatever happened was an accident and Jessica was paranoid about never ever seeing her other kids again (could she have? They weren't adopted right? She just didn't have custody, I thought). So they concoct some story and drag grandpa along with them.

I think grandpa and Isaac didn't know what happened, but Isaac may have suspected something (WHENEVER it happened) and grandpa was in denial and then finally realized what was up and went along with the story, thus becoming a person of interest himself. I ask again: WHY IS ISAAC NOT A PERSON OF INTEREST? There must be a (good) reason.

Hey Jude said...

Shannon, the other children live with their dad, who was already mainly raising them when he was granted custody - they visit with their mother, and he lets them decide if they want to do that. Or did - I don't know if that's still the arrangement as he has made his Facebook private - up till a few months they were sometimes visiting overnight with Jessica. Trina is very close to those grandchildren, she did not seem to have much contact with little DeOrr - at least, hardly any pics of him on her FB, while there are hundreds of his siblings.

Hey Jude said...

* a few months ago

VLW said...

I can't believe this was an accidental death. If it were an accident, why the cover-up? If a child has an accident, you phone for paramedics. At least the parents would want the body recovered so there could be a proper burial. Right now it's reminding me of the Caylee Anthony tragedy/travesty.

trustmeigetit said...

Right! I would too. But they are too protected for reasons we may never know).

trustmeigetit said...

You have to listen to the entire thing.

The parents said they were several places with the child even saying one man interacted with him. They interviewed these people and none of them ever saw Deorr.

That's the issue.

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Thinking this through (albeit without LE and the FBI's evidence and info), Isaac could be a witness without being a suspect because he went fishing. It's plausible that he did not see little DeOrr at the campground that morning because: he went off fishing or he was up early and went fishing. By virtue of the fact that he did not see DeOrr all morning up until 2:30 p.m. makes him a witness. His statement could provide further info depending on when he left, who was up, who fixed breakfast and when, who did or did not eat breakfast, or what may have been said about little DeOrr, etc.

The article states that Klein "believes the child was intentionally or accidentally killed on a camping trip with his parents.". The trip actually began Thursday evening, not Friday morning. The timeline falls apart at 8:00 a.m. Friday morning. So who saw the child before 8? So, when did Isaac or Grandpa Bob last see DeOrr then? In what condition (crying, upset, very sleepy, or they didn't see him because he was "already put to bed/asleep"?). Was he falling down a lot, seemingly uncoordinated?

Thinking further, Vernal Deorr's father made a point of telling People in an interview that little DeOrr had trouble walking and couldn't walk on even ground without falling down. Coordination issues can be symptomatic of a seizure-disorder or concussions, among other things.

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Hey Jude @ 2:11 March 2

Klein is shooting from the hip, with valid points and some righteous indignation. I too had the same thoughts and concerns re: Daddy DeOrr and Jessica and the risk of suicide. When you've been ensnared by your lies, the best way to free yourself is by telling the truth...even if it doesn't seem like it at the time.

The way it stands, when the ground searches start it will be too late. The FBI and company have done their homework- they've been case-building all along. Either parent could turn on the other in an attempt to protect themselves. I am concerned for Jessica and her family, reading between the lines in Klein's statement.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone notice Klein using the word proffer about Isaac?

Proffer or "queen for a day" letters are written agreements between federal prosecutors and individuals under criminal investigation which permit these individuals to tell the government about their knowledge of crimes, with the supposed assurance that their words will not be used against them in any later proceedings.

Sounds like Isaac is cutting a deal.

Anonymous said...

I did notice that, Anon @12:02 and you may be right.

However, I also noticed the large number of spelling and grammatical errors in Klein's public response to Browning, and his errors in word usage.

How does one "bloviate" a jury pool?

Perhaps Klein Investigations and Consulting should investigate and consult a dictionary once in a while.

Anonymous said...

Of course, compared to VDK, Klein is William freaking Shakespeare.

Hey Jude said...

Foolsfeedonfolly - yes; remember the interview when Jessica sat in silence, staring down throughout, as though she were there against her will? And the resentment towards DeOrr Sr which flashed through at points during the first long interview? I wonder how much she is beholden to DeOrr's will in not breaking rank, and if she just had a moment of weakness, being questioned alone, in saying she knows where the body is. It sounds as though she might have broken rank now - it could be that PI Klein's interview is the first DeOrr has heard of Jessica telling them she knows where the body is. Probably not, as that could put her in an even more precarious situation. I wonder if the truth will ever be told, or quite known - there might not be much evidence left by which to establish cause of death, even if the body is recovered sooner rather than later. Maybe she is holding out in the hope it will have deteriorated beyond use by the time it is found.

Ali said...

Klein said that a cadaver dog (that nobody knew about(?!)) hit in 3 places on some camping equipment.

I'm going to ignore the liars's number for now.

I wonder if it was camping equipment that was already in situ at the camp grounds, eg. Fire pit, picnic table etc. or if it was on camping equipment brought by the four.

I've heard from TBC that two dogs were brought on the camping trip and that JMs dog spent much of the time tied up because he did not get along with IR's dog. This led to some speculation that baby DeOrr had been "leashed" to the picnic table and may have strangled. Klein says there was no dog in the back of the pickup, but does not say, definitively, that there were no dogs at the campsite. I don't know.

If the cadaver dog hit was on some piece of equipment brought by the parents, it is still possible that DeOrr never made it to that campsite. Eg, DK and JM might have brought his sleeping bag or some other item as a prop, not realizing it had been in contact with his little corpse.

There are NO known sightings of him by family or friends prior to the Leadore trip, other than by the four POI. Not even on July 4th. After all this time, we still don't know when he was last seen. Neither Klein nor Bowerman, nor Penner will tell us. So how long has he really been missing?

An excellent WS'er has compiled a list of parents who have murdered their children but claim abduction, wandering off or simply vanishing from homes or cars. In many of these cases, the child was not seen for days or weeks, before the parent called 911.

Ali said...

Quite a few on the list put their children in the freezer. Maybe the camping equipment was the ice chest.

Hey Jude said...

Sherrif Bowerman was concerned that they might not have checked one of the vehicles thoroughly enough (Issac's?) - in one interview he was musing as to whether there had been ''another compartment' which they had might have overlooked - maybe that's where the dog hit, and why he was wondering. I think there was camping equipment in the compartment they looked at.

John Mc Gowan said...

A trial in DeOrr Kunz, Jr case would be near impossible without a body

Despite a strongly worded report from private investigator Phillip Klein, a former prosecutor says the state would have a hard time proving the parents were somehow responsible for the death of Deorr Kunz, Jr., because the toddler's body has never been found.

So the question is, can someone be charged for murder if a body hasn't been found? The answer is yes, but it doesn't happen often.

Former Idaho Attorney General David Leroy tells KBOI2 in Boise that it's only been within the last 100 years that we've seen charges brought against people for murder when a body hasn't been found.

"That usually involves a significant link of DNA of blood to the victim," says Leroy. "Of not just a missing person's but circumstances that show there must have been a death. We just can't find it."

Vernal DeOrr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell say their two-and-a-half-year old disappeared in July during a camping trip in eastern Idaho.

Last month, the Lemhi County Sheriff's office named Deorr's parents as suspects in the little boy's disappearance.

Now the private investigator the parents hired believes the parents are lying about their son's disappearance.

"My belief is charges will be filed," says Klein. "I do not know when. I do not know what those charges will be, but I do know that there is extensive conversation at this point regarding what those charges will be but my belief is that charges will be filed probably in the near future."

However -- Leroy says looking at the evidence -- it's hard to build a case until the toddler's body is found.

"It's impossible for any of us to guess what proof's there may be but it's impossible, in my opinion, to bring charges unless you have a body alleging the homicide of a small person in an outdoor area," says Leroy. "there's simply too many open ended questions for any jury to find beyond unreasonable doubt that a conviction could take place."


John Mc Gowan said...





Anonymous said...

Note how the PI pats "Dennis" on the back all the while focusing on the mother and her family. He must know they don't have the money to pay the fees and hopes to launch his specially trained "Georgia dawgs" on them.

"Dennis" has at his disposal a trucking company at which he works and a father with a body shop (?). It's like a moving Don-Ray machine with the option of intermittent changes.

The mother has an elderly father in failing health, a step father with loads of tats, and no custody of her other children. The "Chief Civil Investigator" hopes to give better titles to his other "team" members I'd suspect.

What would you call someone who takes credit for a group of people with a helicopter, the ability to comb a mountain with grids, and can show up within hours of a missing person in the wilderness? Bet they don't run around with an orange cow on their black bumper hoping to garner information via terrorism.

Nine members of his team will re-search the area. Like what? Three groups of three walking the area looking for bones?

Is he surprised he was fired? Even the retired federal marshal had a better plan.

Nic said...

If a cadaver dog hit, why not use SAR dogs (plural) and follow on horseback? How long before a SAR dog is incapable of locating remains?

Rachael said...

Peter, what do you make of his use of 'announce'?

I want to announce
Today we're going to announce
I'm also going to announce
but I will announce today
Also today we are willing to announce
We are willing to announce

Was this interview in advance of a press conference? I cannot hear the video, so I apologize if this is covered in it. If not, what is he getting at with these qualifications? They are all followed up with actual information, so it strikes me as odd that he doesn't just give the information and instead lets us know that he is about to say something.

Shannon In CA said...

That's what I thought. If this was TRULY an accident (kid fell or something easily explainable), that's the only motive I can see for Jessica (fully losing her other kids).

For people to freak out and hide the body of their child, I believe they must feel threatened by something. If that something is a long time in jail, why are they thinking that?

Shannon In CA said...

I'm an attorney and we usually use the word to proffer when we are giving evidence. We "proffer" evidence. I suspect that's what Klein meant...they are looking into the statements and proffered information IR gave them. You could also be right...I'm not discounting a deal with prosecutors. But there's be little reason for KLEIN to look into a deal being made with prosecutors...that's their issue. Klein's job is to review evidence...so that would fit with "reviewing statements and proffers" made by IR.

C5H11ONO said...

Based on the theory that if the baby was already dead when they went to the camp ground, then a cadaver dog would have to have hit in the truck. He was probably placed in a bag in the bed of the truck/pickup? That would explain the leakage, "haulin".

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

I notice the Kunz family fired Klein Investigators, but Vernal Deorr Kunz has not sued him as his lawyer suggested. ;) Firing him is a little like closing the barn door after the cows, horses, sheep, pigs, and chickens have all gotten out. IMHO

Also interesting that Vernal Deorr Kunz' attorney advised him that he "should sue for defamation". Should sue is not "we are filing suit for defamation". Nine failed polys across 4 agencies might be a tad worrisome.

John Mc Gowan said...

I'm not savy with individual state / Idaho laws in the US.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for murder / cover up of a murder and or accident cover up, without a body?

Anonymous said...

Bianca Jones, age 2, her body has not been recovered. Her Sperm Donor sentenced to life without parole, no body did not stop the conviction of this monster. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jones_bianca.html

John Mc Gowan said...

Anonymous @ March 3, 2016 at 1:50 PM

Thank you

ima.grandma said...

this paragraph (bs) has me always coming back. I've capped standouts combining action words (diversion), negations, persuasion and pronouns. I'm having trouble making connections, thoughts anyone?  I haven't listened to it in awhile but I'm imagining pauses and hesitations. SAing a fabricated story is tough. I always want to believe the words but now with most of the interested world including me, suspecting lies...how many of their words, now and initially, have credibility? Which of their words were spoken to promote intentional rabbit holes? I remember VDK and his sister implanting the "beware: black truck" trap on the first day of reported disappearance. The parents had no words for media but sent Tanisha  down the road to propagandize. 

VDK:  that WE DON'T KNOW is...I COME to find, I DIDN'T KNOW the area, and I DIDN'T KNOW, I ..there, it's VERY open but YOU CAN'T SEE much ...there's a road that GOES up and along the top - WE'RE camped underneath the reservoir, basically right below it, and YOU CAN GO up above the reservoir, and I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW the road was, DID that, I DIDN'T KNOW the road was up there, and as I travelled up there MYSELF, I COULD'VE found out I COULD SEE everything that was GOING on at the campsite, but YOU CAN'T SEE out - YOU CAN'T SEE up, YOU CAN'T SEE round and if ANYONE COMES to the bottom of YOUR camp ground YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THEY are...

Anonymous said...

Imaybe grandma, it's interesting.

That was his response to the question..."was anyone else camping up there"

We don't know
I come to find
I didn't know
I didn't know
I didn't even know
I come to found out

So, that's a yes, then?

Someone here made a good point. If DK and JM were searching for Deoor, screaming his name and the nicknames they have for him, why didn't they come across the couple camping above them? How did the couple fail to hear them? Oh yeah, I forgot.

John Mc Gowan said...

OT Update: :)

South African Court Denies Oscar Pistorius' Bid To Appeal Murder Conviction


ima.grandma said...

Yes anon. I've thought and expressed it many times early on here in Peter's blog. His manic expression told me he was worried he might have been, unknowingly, observed during an action he committed displaying guilt and complicity. It is a main topic of concern for VDK ~ this trip on road to the top he speaks about.

JustSayin' said...

I still hope investigators will lean on Jessica about DeOrr Jr's boots. She put the front and center on the Missing poster (rather than his photo) and mentioned shoe/boots twice in the original interview - she hardly spoke otherwise during that interview.

Also, wasn't there a very revealing interview that came out a couple of weeks ago where VDK's dad specifically told us all about what he was sure did NOT happen? Specifically he was sure his son did NOT throw DeOrr's body into the back of the pickup truck?

I looked but couldn't find the transcript. Someone here did put it up though, in a previous DeOrr Kunz jr. thread.

JustSayin' said...


You wrote:

I want to announce
Today we're going to announce
I'm also going to announce
but I will announce today
Also today we are willing to announce
We are willing to announce
This makes me want to go back and look at which announcements he actually owned with the pronoun I, rather than using we.

Anonymous said...

The 911 calls.

Klein said that there were three calls to 911. From GGP,VDK and JM

@ 2:22, 2:26, and 2:28

He specifically says his timeline ends at 2:26. (8:00am - 2:26pm)

I initially thought that this must mean that whoever called at 2:26 was the primary suspect.

Because we know that JM called at 2:28, we can surmise that either VDK or GGP called at 2:26. (I think it was VDK)

But now, Klein says that the FIRST call to 911 was at 2:26! So what happened to the call at 2:22?

This case is doing my head in.

Anonymous said...

Ima a grandma,

Yes, he certainly seemed disconcerted to learn that there were other campers up abovewith a clear view into his campsite.

Either because, as you say, he thinks he was unknowingly observed doing something...


Because if he really had been searching and screaming for Deorr, he would have been seen and heard by the other campers.....but he wasn't.

Anonymous said...

What about this?

VDK and JM baby DeOrr go camping in the mountain for the July 4th weekend, miles and miles away from Timber Creek.

The baby is killed through neglect/accident/beating, and VDK and JM, terrified of losing access to her other childrencover it up and bury him.

, JM confesses to GGP that there was an accident and GGP swings into action with the camping at timber creek/lost child scenario.

(Yes, maybe it was GGP, believing it was a accident and trying to keep his granddaughter out of jail) IR is brought along as a patsy.

LE, FBI and PIs detect the lies.

This scenario would explain:
1Why there was no trace of babyDeorr being alive at that campsite,
2. GGP's inexplicable silence (we are now hearing GGP thinks there was an accident but won't elaborate),
3. How the baby could still be on the mountain,(at another campsite)
4. Why the last known sighting of baby Deorr by someone other than thePOI, is a mystery.
5. Why there was cadaverine on some camping equipment.

Anything is possible, I suppose.

Ali said...

Hey Jude (uliet) :)

For someone who doesn't like side shows, Klein sure seems hell bent on vilifying JM in public; he's throwing her to the lions, so to speak.

Her mental health must be suffering. I hope she is receiving care and is on suicide watch.

I agree that Klein's approach seems less than ethical.

Do you remember Melinda Duckett and her two year old baby, Trent, and the Nancy Grace fiasco?

Kimberly Smith said...

To anonymous at 7:20pm -- Thank you. That makes the most sense to me of anything yet. Very plausible. Maybe add a #6: GGP's motive to help JM is she is his caregiver and may have no one else willing to help him live his last days out as comfortably; plus maybe he loves her/family.

Anonymous said...

And 7. Why IR hasn't seen his friend, Walt, all winter, and why IR says "people can change in the blink of an eye."

Anonymous said...

The idea that baby DeOrr could be in a mineshaft has some viability.

Language used by DK about areas to search includes:



I googled "pocket mining" and lo and behold, found this comment.

" Both ( pocket mines) are in the area of Salmon Idaho. The town of Salmon actually started out as a supply camp for the now ghost town of Leesburg. Until just a few years ago, they were still mining gold there".

Salmon Idaho. That's pretty close to Leadore, isn't it?

Just coincidence? Or more leakage by VDK?

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Anonymous @ 7:20 pm
Remnant Quilter Kimberly
Anonymous @ 8:18

All good points! If I may add to the list, what if it wasn't GGP that Jessica theoretically confessed to, but Trina. Jessica seems closer to Trina than GGP and it was Trina that Jessica supposedly texted abut getting feminine supplies. It was also Trina up at Timber Creek campground, making good time when little DeOrr was reported "missing". It was also Trina who supposedly found a diaper in a tree that 200+ trained searchers somehow missed and disposed of it. I'm not accusing Trina of anything. I'm just saying if Jessica was going to seek outside help, my money's on Trina. If you're on a camping trip in a caregiver capacity, you're a grown adult with 3 children, and you're texting your mom about buying feminine supplies, there's a pretty good chance your mom is your go-to when something goes wrong. Just my opinion.

Penny said...

I understand how you feel, but the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" means something. It's awful that people do these things but I would rather ten guilty people go free than one innocent person losing their freedom without due process.

Penny said...

^ My comment is to Rob at 12:02

Anonymous said...


Yes. You could be right. If so, she's a hell of an actor. Unlike GGP who has remained shtum, Trina has said quite a few things on SM in an attempt to defend Jessica. Things which, had she been involved in this conspiracy, she definitely would NOT have said.

Then again, now that I think about it.....

IIRC, Trina was up on the mountain pretty damn fast.

Trina says she arrived at Timber creek campground at 4:48pm. (weirdly specific time)
The trip from Idaho falls to Leadore, takes 1 hour and 49 minutes. The trip from Leadore to Timber Creek campground takes, according to Trina herself, about 45 mins.

So about 2 hours and 34 mins all up.

So, working backwards, she must have left Idaho Falls at 2:12pm. (That's without packing, stopping for petrol or food, arranging pet care etc.)

Which is way before JMs 911 call @ 2:28.!

Maths is not my strong suit. Is that right? Did JM call Trina before she called 911?

Anonymous said...

Anon at 7:20, how do we know there was no trace of Deorr being alive at the campsite?

Anonymous said...

I believe Trina is in denial, as Klein said. I feel sorry for her.

I don't think she was an accessory BEFORE the fact, but I think she may be an accessory AFTER the fact.

Eg. I don't believe she found and disposed of, Baby Deoor's diaper.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:32,

Because Klein, SAR, MSM and Klein have said so. Repeatedly. Have you heard differently?

Anonymous said...

Ooops. I didn't mean to say Klein twice.

Even VDK said "there was not a trace of my son found".

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Penny @9:57

I agree that a man is innocent until provenguilty and wouldn't want it any other way. I also am leery of trying someone in the court of public opinion. That said, when someone presents himself/herself to the general public as the parent of missing child and causes hundreds of people to drop their own personal lives/jobs/families and crawl all over rough mountainous terrain and repeatedly dive frigid mountain lakes and streams, and causes massive amounts of money (community and federal) to be spent, and publicly solicit donations to support their search or themselves- they should be able to give verifiable, truthful answers to standard investigative questions.

I also think there is some merit in multiple failed polygraphs, conducted by multiple agencies. Forgetting that the polygrapher gave you a practice run before the test, think of the first "real" one as a practice. By the third one, you should be anticipating the question, so you should have no problem with the question (barring medical issues/substance abuse issues/certain prescription medication). It's not like it's a surprise or a trick question someone sprung on them trying to "trap" them.

I also think that if five people were on an overnight mountain camping trip, you would know who fixed breakfast. We know little DeOrr didn't, so we can eliminate him. However, you may not know who fixed breakfast if: you hadn't arrived at the campsite, you left the campsite, you weren't up until breakfast was over and cleaned up, or you skipped breakfast. **Remember the discrepancy surrounding their first interview- they led the public to believe they had just arrived Friday morning, set up camp, and were only there a few hours before little DeOrr "went missing". From Trina we heard that they had arrived Thursday evening and made camp.

It's the inability to clearly, coherently, and chronologically explain what happened and when that is Dadddy Deorr's (Vernal) and Jessica's issue. It's that their story does not match the campsite evidence(or overwhelming lack thereof) of their description of their son's propensity for being a mover and a go-er, for dropping things/leaving things behind as he goes. It's the complete and utter lack of evidence of an animal attack, down to wildlife cameras/checking animal dens/checking scat. When someone literally "vanishes" from a specific area without a trace, there's a good chance it's because they were never there in the first place- they were somewhere else. Simply put, sometimes a lack of evidence is evidence of another kind.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 9:41, Salmon was what Sr said on one of his first interviews, then quickly corrected himself to Timber creek, interesting.

Anonymous said...

11:18 Anon.

I believe he said "snake River" twice while he was trying to say Salmon Search and Rescue.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 11:27, you are right, I went back and re-watched the interview, he was trying to say salmon search and rescue, but said snake river, salmon river, then finally got it right with salmon search and rescue, I just remember that really standing out to me when I first watched it, how hard he "tripped" over those words.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 11:46, yep it really stood out to me, as well. And a lot of other people. It sent me down a rabbit hole of Freudian slips.

I still wouldn't be surprised if the original campground was somewhere on the Snake River.

Or maybe a mineshaft somewhere near Snake River?

Anonymous said...

Brennon Birch
Brennon Birch As the father of Jessica's two other kids . I am 100% on Klein's side
Like · Reply · 130 · 46 minutes ago

Ok then.

Hey Jude said...

I do remember Melinda Duckett and little Trent, Ali - yes - Nancy Grace has a lot to answer for there.

The hoped-for ends don't always justify the means. I don't think PI Klein is right to have made his announcements, particularly about Jessica knowing where the body is - it seems as if he's putting himself above the law by acting in a way LE does not, just because he can. I hope someone is watching out for Jessica's welfare - and for DeOrr. I'd imagine she'd be suicidal with her admission now public knowledge - I know they want to bring it to a close, but it seems like an abuse of power, psychological terror tactics, almost.

Lis said...

He's such a lovely baby, and his expression is so relaxed and trusting, it's hard to imagine he was an abused child. Of course, I'm just going by the photos. But I guess I suspect either an accident happened or something happened with a person they are terrified of.

Klein seems to be speaking out of great frustration. His announcing he is going to announce seems to be a way to focus more attention on the announcement. He wants it to be known.

Can we send him to the Celis case? lol

Lis said...

" Anonymous said...

Brennon Birch
Brennon Birch As the father of Jessica's two other kids . I am 100% on Klein's side
Like · Reply · 130 · 46 minutes ago"


Penny said...

Foolsfeedonfolly, my comment about due process was in general, not specific to DeOrr's case. There's certainly mountains of circumstantial evidence here, I wasn't suggesting there is a lack of evidence in this specific case.

Speaking of prosecution without a body, I'm not aware of cases involving children where it's been successfully done, but Debbie Hawk's ex husband was prosecuted for her murder with no recovered body, as was Steven Sherer whose wife Jami's body was never recovered.



John Mc Gowan said...

Update: Private investigator Phillip Klein responds to lawsuit letter


Anonymous said...

OT - another "hate letter" for SA:

"Hey handicap! First, never place your hands on my car again! Second, honey you ain’t the only one with “struggles.” You want pity go to a one leg support group! You messed with the wrong one! I don’t care what your note said shove it, but you touch my car again I will file a report, I am not playing! I let the office know the cry baby one leg touches my property I will cause trouble so go cry your struggles to someone who cares cause I’m walking away with both mine! -[Expletive]"

SOURCE: http://shareably.net/woman-with-prosthetic-leg-receives-letter-neighbor/?utm_source=scrape&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=scrape&utm_term=ib1HzFTHsKjNT4EKILyCmaIFQR3ccz92_vj3B2Zp01c%3D

Bottle Cap said...

JustSayin' (march 3 @ 5:12pm)

Also, wasn't there a very revealing interview that came out a couple of weeks ago where VDK's dad specifically told us all about what he was sure did NOT happen? Specifically he was sure his son did NOT throw DeOrr's body into the back of the pickup truck?

I looked but couldn't find the transcript. Someone here did put it up though, in a previous DeOrr Kunz jr. thread.

VDK's Dad: "He is not a monster. He could not have done any harm to that boy even if it was an accident. Hypothetically, if an accident would have happened up there and the boy was injured very badly, the thought would have never entered his mind to dig a hole, put the boy in it, and walk away. That is totally asinine. He would have thrown that boy in a truck and gone down for help."

Tania Cadogan said...

Off topic

ATLANTA – Prosecutors have filed new charges against a Georgia man accused of intentionally leaving his toddler son to die in a hot SUV.

In a new indictment filed Friday, they charge Justin Ross Harris with sexual exploitation of children and dissemination of harmful material to minors. Harris already faces multiple charges, including murder, in the June 2014 death of his son Cooper.

His trial on the original charges is set to begin April 11.

Harris' attorney Maddox Kilgore says the new charges are meant to "inflame public opinion" against his client right before jury selection.

Cobb County District Attorney Vic Reynolds said advances in electronic forensic analysis and newly discovered victims led to the new indictment. He said they had to file the charges before it was too late.


Ali said...

Fact. SB and his wife run the Funeral Homes in Leadore
Fact. The funeral homes are connected to Leadore crematorium
Fact. The funeral homes are cremation providers.
Fact. The funeral homes offers a service scattering cremated ashes (cremains)
Fact. Cremains were "dumped" at timber creek, stone reservoir while LE and SAR were searching.
Fact. SB used the word "dumped"
Fact. SB indicated that his wife has been running the funeral homes by herself for some time.
Fact. Klein indicated that some of his findings would raise eyebrows and cause embarrassment. Embarrassment.

Conclusion: the cremains came from SB and his wife's funeral home. I think Mrs Bowerman went up the mountain to assist in the search effort ( as did many of the locals) and, not considering the implications, scattered the ashes as part of her funeral home duties, and inadvertently contaminated the crime scene.

I think that in a town the size of Leadore, 100 or so, which has its own crematorium, and funeral home run by the sheriff and his wife, the chances of the cremains coming from anywhere else, at that time, are virtually non existent.

I know that the cremains are a red herring in Deorr's case. But was driving me crazy trying to work it out, and now think I have.

The first clue was the "word" dumped by SB. Some one on this blog picked it up - the ever astute Hey Jude, I think. Great statement analysis, Hey Jude! Thank you Peter!

Can someone, please, weigh in on this. Am I right? WS deleted my comments instead of giving me a pat on the head and super sleuths badge!

I want my badge.

Hey Jude said...

Klein is so off - I just read the attorney's letter claiming defamation, it seems Jessica had said in interview only that she believes DeOrr is 'still on the mountain', which is vague, and not the same as saying she knows where precisely his body is, which is the impression given by Klein. Also wondering what all that farce was around grandfather Kunz asking to meet with Klein investigators and being sent to a department store, where he had to stand facing a wall waiting for some guy to come up and whisper '999' in his ear - a guy who then had no identification to connect him to Klein Investigations. Beyond ridiculous. Like something out of that old UK comedy series 'Trigger Happy TV'. No respect for his client, so no likes for the Klein from me. He's acting as though it's a reality TV show, IMO.

Ali said...

Hey Jude(uliet)

Can you please weigh in on SB and the cremains? Please? I'm fairly certain it was you who identified the use of the word "dumped" in relation to the cremains.

It started me questioning what " dumped" meant in SBs internal subjective dictionary.

That led to the connection of SB and the crematorium, as outlined inthe post above yours @ 9:17.

Pretty please. Let me know what youthink.

Hey Jude said...

Ali, I think we'll just have to wait and see. I don't know if you are right. It would be so embarrassing if that were the case. I think, after a little while, after the unfortunate 'dumping' comment, it was said somewhere that it was relatives of the deceased who had been up there with the ashes, but I don't recall where that came from. There is something niggling the Sherrif, but it could be any number of things of which it wouldn't be expedient for him to speak - he must lie awake at night wondering if there is anything they could or should have done differently, as anyone would - it must weigh on his mind.

I think, if it is the case, and if Klein knows it, and is using it as part of his armoury to keep the Sherrif sweet while he does what he likes, regardless of how it to might be further destroying the Kunz and Mitchell families, he'd have to go down even further in my estimation.

WS rules - no point complaining.:) I don't post there - I read when there's something interesting - the mountain lion thing was not interesting, but kudos to them for getting the interviews.

Foolsfeedonfolly said...

Penny @ 8:12 am

I'm sorry! I don't think I'm communicating too well here. I was trying to agree with you on the innocent until proven guilty stance. I agree that people should be tried in a court of law, not the media as well. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Aside from that, I was trying (and failing) to say that I can kind of see why Klein did what he did (I'm guessing he doesn't like to be jerked around/lied to). I'm not sure I agree with the way he went about it. However, at the same time DeOrr, Jessica, Trina, and Tanisha have pursued interviews,a book mention/TV show spot, and have actively fundraised for months for searches when they may actually know where their missing child is. That's a whole lot of jerking their own families and friends, the FBI, LE, Search & Rescue, their communities, and people all over who've been praying/retweeting/donating/etc.

I'm concerned for Jessica's mental health and her safety. Here's the thing, if she's covering-you can choose to deceive other people, but you can't hide the truth from yourself- you know what you know. A lifetime is a long time to live with it and be looking over your shoulder. The bad thing about making a deal with the devil (so to speak), is that you're permanently tied to the person you're covering for (or vice-versa, if they're covering you). Each one runs the risk of the other eventually rolling on the other.

Which leads me to ask, who has more to lose- Daddy DeOrr (Vernal) or Jessica? It was Daddy DeOrr who said, "I knew I was in trouble." I'm getting the impression that whatever happened, Jessica was talked into going along so as not to lose all visitation with her other children. I could be off base.

Anonymous said...

If the babies death was an accident that's one thing. Disposing of his remains is quite another. How could they do that? How could they dump their baby. It's unforgivable. I can't bare the thought of that little baby being left like garbage out in the wilderness; how on earth does his mom sleep at night?
I hope they find him soon and he is laid to rest properly.

Ali said...

Thanks Hey Jude,

Your second paragraph, in particular, reflects what I am thinking.

While Klein is running around, shooting his mouth off about what a great working relationship he has with LE and how great SB is, he avoids discussing the cremains except to state, categorically, that they have nothing to do with baby DeOrr.

At the same time, he is very publically villifying the suspects. I have never heard of such a PUBLIC private investigator. He says he does not want to hurt the prosecution but he will not STFU.

I think Klein IS using knowledge of the source of the cremain as part of his armory "to keep the sherif sweet".Otherwise, SB probably WOULD have told Klein to STFU, by now.

He has poor old SB (and probably poor old Mrs. B) running scared cos they accidentally contaminated a crime scene. And Klein knows it.

Sent from my iPad

Anonymous said...

Maybe the baby was never at the campsite. Maybe he died somewhere else and they went "camping" knowing he wouldn't be found there.
If it really was an accident why didn't they take him to the hospital? Most parents would be inconsolable and would even take their dead baby to a hospital instead of coming up with some elaborate plan to cover up their babies death. Their actions make me think they were more concerned about themselves and what others might think of them, and that's not normal when your baby is dead.

Unknown said...

Wow. . . I am not sure if SA can be applied to written statements (not free thought) from attorneys, but would be interested in anyone's take on the letter written by Kunz family attorney. . . A pdf version can be found here:

And the reply from Klien is found as follows:

Anonymous said...

Hey Jude, I appreciate your thinking of the mom's mental wellbeing, but I don't think she's suicidal. Surely one would be suicidal long before now if they accidentally caused the death of their baby, or knew about a cover up.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but the suggestion that the sheriff's wife was the one who dumped the cremains in the reservoir and that the PI is holding that over the sheriff's head is totally absurd.

You're taking ONE WORD -- "dumped" -- and creating a fictitious story around it. Is there any evidence to suggest the sheriff's wife was even present that day?

And do you think she just carries random cremains around in her car in the event she happens to go somewhere that's a good spot for disposing of them?

Just because Leadore is a small town, it doesn't mean the cremains came from the Leadore crematorium. It is not unusual for people travel --sometimes long distances -- to scatter cremains in a place that was meaningful to the deceased. My stepmother-in-law will have to travel from the East Coast all the way to Alaska to scatter my father-in-law's ashes in his favorite vacation spot.

Bottle Cap said...


Notice Allen Browning states "(Klein) ...was paid $20,000" a couple of times. He doesn't say DDK paid Klein. If he doesn't say it, we cannot say it for him. Klein says, "Mr. Kunz has not spent any money on this case." I believe Klein.

Browning's hyperbole bothers me: "Caused the general public to hate" "outrageous statements" "scum of the earth" "horrendous" "making people's lives a living hell" "make the world hate the ones you love" What lawyer talks like that?
He also doesn't seem too bright. The FBI doesn't offer deals, only a prosecutor would.
He doesn't seem too ethical. How can he adequately represent both JM and VDK?
He's not logical. According to Browning it's a false statement that JM told LE that she thought Deorr was dead. However she believes he is still up on the mountain. Uh, it's winter, how does JM and Browning think a 3 year old would still be alive up on the mountain?

Hey Jude said...

Anon @ 11.48 - We don't know that Jessica wasn't already suicidal for the reasons you give - it's possible she is, and that this could tip her over the edge. I think what Klein said is irresponsible, at best. There are not necessarily any signs that a person is suicidal, so often a family says there was no indication, the person hid how they were feeling.


Anon @ 12.55 - it does not need to be absurd. (I said way back that the Sheriff may have said 'dumped' rather than scattered just because he was frustrated at the situation, and annoyed.). On the other hand, some crematoriums do, over time, accumulate a back-log of cremains, those which go unclaimed, and those where the family ask the crem staff to scatter them, but don't enquire as to the likely timescale - not everyone is over concerned, not everyone wants to do it themselves.. If that's the case, the cremains are quite impersonal, and there's a quantity, which makes 'dumping' not an unlikely word for the Sheriff to have used, if they had been put there by one of his staff - (also, he'd still be annoyed and frustrated enough to use the word 'dumped'). Families do not 'dump' ashes, a crematorium operator does not describe families as 'dumping' ashes. They might' in a less than guarded moment, describe themselves, or their staff as 'dumping' a backlog of ashes - because they are heavy, cumbersome, and it would be something which just needed doing - there would not be much, if any, of ceremony about that. Ashes sometimes sit on a crem shelf for years, until the space is needed for the next generation, Sad, but true. So, it's not necessarily absurd - though I do agree there's no reason to think Mrs Bowerman was responsible, if the ashes did come from their crem. I think we'll just have to wait and see - it'll likely be explained at some point.

Hey Jude said...

The attorney's letter is ridiculous - but Jessica saying she believes DeOrr is still on the mountain (obviously dead) is not the same as her saying she knows where his body is, precisely, which is the impression Klein has given.

I think grandfather Kunz can fire him as often as he likes, but it won't make a bit of difference to Klein continuing to work the case for as he long as he wants. The family raised the money though, I believe - so there won't be any more where that came from, unless someone else takes over the fundraising.


What about grandpa Kunz being told to go to a department store and stand with his face to the wall, waiting for some mystery guy to whisper '999' in his ear. Are they taking the p*ss out of him for their own amusement, or what? You couldn't make it up.

John Mc Gowan said...

Private detective in DeOrr Kunz case rehired by anonymous client



OT Update:

Potential witness may testify against Wesley Hadsell regarding death of stepdaughter, attorney says

A potential witness has come forward who could testify against Anjelica “AJ” Hadsell’s stepfather regarding the 18-year-old woman’s disappearance and death, according to the stepfather’s attorney.

To date, Wesley Hadsell has not been charged in connection with his stepdaughter’s death. He has, however, pleaded guilty to a federal ammunition charge that could send him to prison for 15 years or more.

In a court filing this week, Assistant Federal Public Defender Keith Kimball asked a judge to let him withdraw as Hadsell’s attorney on the grounds that he has a conflict of interest. He explained he recently learned another person represented by his office has provided information to law enforcement about Hadsell in the hope of receiving a reduction in his or her prison sentences.

Kimball said there is a “strong possibility” that other client could become a “potential witness against Mr. Hadsell if he is prosecuted – in state or federal court – with a crime relating to his adopted daughter’s disappearance and/or death.” The client, whom he did not identify, also could testify at Hadsell’s sentencing in the ammunition case.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Benjamin Hatch declined to comment on the defense motion. Kimball could not immediately be reached for comment.


John Mc Gowan said...


Hadsell – who also faces a state charge of heroin possession – was set to be sentenced March 18 in U.S. District Court in Norfolk. Kimball’s request to withdraw as defense counsel will likely force a postponement.

According to court documents, Hadsell bought Winchester .40-caliber and Luger 9 mm ammunition in December 2013 from Bob’s Gun Shop in Norfolk. A week later, he went to a gun range in Chesapeake and fired some of it.

A federal probation officer has classified Hadsell as an “armed career criminal,” meaning he must receive a sentence of 15 years to life in prison.

Kimball has disputed the use of that label. By his reading of his client’s record, Hadsell should receive a sentence of no more than 10 years.

The two sides will argue the point at sentencing.

AJ Hadsell was found dead in April in Southampton County. She disappeared more than a month earlier from her parents’ home in the Tarrallton area of Norfolk while on spring break from Longwood University.

A medical examiner determined in June that she died of “acute heroin poisoning.” Whether it was accidental, suicide or homicide remains undetermined.

Officer Daniel Hudson, a Norfolk police spokesman, said detectives are “looking into the circumstances surrounding the disappearance and death of AJ Hadsell,” but he declined to comment further in light of the ongoing investigation.

Norfolk police followed Wesley Hadsell after his stepdaughter’s disappearance, according to court documents. Police also searched his hotel room for evidence regarding her abduction.

Detectives found about 80 rounds of ammunition inside the room at Americas Best Value Inn on East Little Creek Road, according to court documents.

No hearings are set in connection with the state heroin charge.


ima.grandma said...

Private detective in DeOrr Kunz case rehired by anonymous client

A day or so ago, I read Klein was vetting two possible clients before allowing them to sign new contract for services.

Note: John, you're a valued contributor to this blog. Thank you.

ima.grandma said...

Jessica and Deorr made the decision of heading down the wrong path during panic.

The path of tragically misplaced priorities. 

Drugs, fear of consequences or mental illness are the only logical explanations for the direction they took.

John Mc Gowan said...


911 calls released in Shrewsbury deadly domestic shooting case

It was a domestic dispute that turned deadly. Police say Frank Weir, 54, shot and killed his longtime girlfriend at their Shrewsbury home last month. He was in court Friday for a motion hearing after being arraigned last week.

Weir is currently being held without bail until his trial, and Friday the state's attorney presented some evidence to uphold that, including 911 calls made the night Weir claims he accidentally shot Donna Marzilli.

When Weir's mother, Joan Carlson, was asked for her reaction, she said, "Oh my God, Frank, no."

Carlson woke up just before midnight Feb. 15 when the phone rang. It was her son, Frank Weir.

"He was emotional, and he said, a terrible thing, an awful thing, something like that, has happened. And I said, what happened? And he said Donna and I had a little dispute and we had a tussle over the gun," said Carlson.

Weir claims his longtime girlfriend, Marzilli, pulled a gun on him. He says he tried to take it away from her, but it went off, shooting Marzilli in the chest and killing her. Weir immediately called 911.

Dispatcher Christina Kramer: 911, Where is your emergency?

Weir: 6718 Cold River Road... I just had an accident with a gun.

Those calls were recorded and played by the prosecution in court Friday. Vermont State Police Dispatcher Christina Kramer was the one on the phone with Weir. She says he hung up on the first call, and police called him back.

Call: Where is the gun?


John Mc Gowan said...


Weir: I don't know... I don't know where it is. She got it out of my hand and the trigger went off and I shot her. Oh, my God, I didn't mean to do it.

State's Attorney Rosemary Kennedy also presented the court with calls between Weir and his mother when he was taken to Marble Valley Regional Correctional Facility in which he describes how the dispute came about.

"We were having a verbal disagreement about a private matter between us... my big mistake, I should have just let her shoot me," said Weir on the phone.

The motion for bail hearing continues Wednesday with filings from both the defense and the prosecution, Judge Thomas Zonay will issue a written decision at that time regarding Weir's bail.

While on the stand, Weir's mother said that she video chatted with both her son and Marzilli twice that day, and everything seemed normal. In the phone calls between her and her son, they speak about a history of disputes between the couple.

Weir is being held on charges of second-degree homicide and aggravated assault.


John Mc Gowan said...


Thank You

Anonymous said...

The only reason I think it's Mrs. B that dumped/scattered the cremains, is because SB said that his wife is running the funeral homes by herself ATM because he is so busy.

It might not have been her. But I bet the cremains "dumped" came from Leadore crematorium.

ima.grandma said...

Anon - I recently read where VDK said it was a family from Oregon who scattered the cremains. As so the story goes: a family made a special trip for this ceremonial ritual. One of the family members was met with a no, you can't and was given an explanation. Another family member posed as a searcher and found a way to accomplish their intended task. At some point, confession occurred.

Anonymous said...

Yes, that sounds far more likely. The cremains came from Oregon. Not Leadore crematorium.

ima.grandma said...


Klein Investigations and Consulting
16 hrs · 
We have recieved a call from a national media outlet wanting to know about the ‪#‎teamklein‬ and ‪#‎teamdeorr‬. We would like to say that as we appreciate the support for our investigation - and all of you that want to bring this case to closure - we all need to keep our eye on the ball that we have a missing child and that is our focus. As the hashtags have gone viral and now being picked up by the media - we thank all of you for your support. We are working.

ima.grandma said...

If there is a national media contact it is CNN>HLN>Nancy Grace.

Coupled with obvious reasons, this interview tells me:

If you go to East Idaho News home page, CNN is the only national media to which they align themselves. Admittedly a spontaneous thought as I'm typing, but could media be classified as a client? Is that legal?

Bottle Cap said...

From Klein Investigations:

The investigator/agent Mr. Kunz spoke with was Mr. Stephen Hartman, TPLI/PPO who was leading the assignment. The facts layed out were wrong. Mr. Hartman was working undercover on an assignment as team leader. We did not want his cover or idenity discovered. Thus the public place. Mr. Kunz was FULLY advised why. Again - another side show.

Notice what Browning's letter concentrates on: attacking Klein.

What does Peter say about liars? When caught, they lie again and attack.

Jessica, Vernal and Dennis and their lawyer appear to be following this exact pattern.

Anonymous said...

Sheriff Bowerman tells KPVI that he's not paying attention to the back and forth between investigators, Browning, and the family and that they are only working with other law enforcement agencies like Bonneville County and the FBI, and not with any of the outside investigators.


Here's Sheriff Bowerman's statement to Idaho State Journal on 3/4(I'm unable to link as I only have one more free article). It's the headline, 'Private Detective in DeOrr Kunz Case rehired by Anonymous Client'

SB: 'There have been so many red flags from the different changes in their stories. I know something happened up there and I'm pretty sure they know where he (DeOrr Kunz Jr.) is at. We just need that one piece of evidence to put the pressure on, and we're looking for it.'

A few people in SM and at other forums have wondered why have we not heard anything from Sheriff Bowerman, so I thought I would post these updated statements.

Hey Jude said...

Well, it's still an interesting theory, Ali - a strange coincidence, not to mention odd disregard for the circumstances of a search for a missing child in progress, but if people had made the trip all the way to Timber Creek's Stoney Reservoir especially, all the way from Oregon, on that particular day, I suppose they would've been relucant to return home with the ashes. Odd to pose as a searcher, too, wouldn't want those circumstances round the 'dumping' of my ashes.

John Mc Gowan said...

Klein Investigations and Consulting

3 mins ·

Good Morning! As of 7:00 PM central time yesterday evening, our firm, KIC Texas, has been retained to move forward in Phase 4 of our investigation in the disappearance of missing child, DeOrr Kunz Jr.
There will be no further comment made to media or the public regarding the investigation into little DeOrr.
We WILL address the public and media regarding the search when the time approaches.
We want to reiterate our appreciation to the public. We are dedicated to finding DeOrr and we will not give up.


Anonymous said...

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-plagiarism-scandal-is-unfolding-in-the-crossword-world/ has enough original quote to show who really did it.

Lis said...

Oh, the story about the crossword puzzles is very interesting, anon at 10:35. Quote:

When I spoke with Parker on Thursday, he didn’t deny that many of his puzzles exactly replicated themes and theme answers from Times puzzles. "To me, it’s just mere coincidence," he said. He did deny that themes were purposefully replicated with his knowledge and claimed that he hadn’t looked at a New York Times crossword in years. "We don’t look at anybody else’s puzzles or really care about anyone else’s puzzles," Parker said.

It's just a coincidence
To me, it’s just mere coincidence

I don't use others' crossword puzzles
We don’t look at anybody else’s puzzles or really care about anyone else’s puzzles

hmmmmmmmmmmmm... ;-)

Lis said...

Oh, and I missed this little gem:

Parker has used freelancers but told me that he has an in-house team of 60 at Universal that helps him create the puzzles. He declined to put me in touch with any of them, saying that I could speak to him “as the editor” and citing “trade secrets.” When I wondered aloud whether these contributors existed at all, Parker said that “even if they didn’t, that has nothing to do with the crosswords.”

lynda said...

ynda said...
Transcription of Deorr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell interview local news...

No question...picks up with Jessica..
JM: For me, it's hard to even leave my house. To go, to get gas or ya know, to the grocery store.

Cuts quickly to Vernal. Again, do not know what the question was

DK: Ya get up in the morning hopeful, you go to bed (3 second pause) just..no more answers.

Cut again after some backstory from interviewer...cuts again to Vernal with no question asked

DK: Its, it's, so much easier to blame parents...

Cut to Sheriff Bowerman saying he knows they know what happened.
Cut to Vernal...no question asked

DK: People have pretty much laid my son to rest already..

JM: People just coming up to us in general, in the public, telling us that they know we're gonna go to hell for what we did to our son, and how could we...CUT TO VERNAL

DK: If yer so damn positive we'd like to talk to ya, and so's the, infes...law enforcement, and FBI then if yer so positive.


REporter: Phillip Klein says you confessed to knowing where baby Deorr is, and that you won't go any further than that. Is that true?

JM: Absolutely not. No.

Reporter: So I have to ask you, did you murder your son?

DK: Absolutely not.

JM: No.

REporter: Was there an acciden?

JM & DK simultaneously: No.

DK: If there was, it wasn't to my knowledge.

JM: Exactly. We have no knowledge of that, if there was.

Reporter: You're saying you have nothing to do with his disappearance?

DK: No.
JM: No.

DK: He was left with a trusted adult and when I come back, my son was gone.

Reporter: Does it worry you with these things that have come out..Klein, and uh, people are gonna stop looking?

JM: Yeah. Um, I feel like that's been the case for months now. I feel like they've already made up their minds, "Oh he is deceased" or whatever they think and people went, "Oh, ok, well whatever. And emmm...

JM: They coulda walked past him

Vernal Is talking over Jessica's statement above so there is simultaneous talking

DK:: They were able to put things to rest that way."

JM: Yeah, and they, they coulda walked past him. Somebody could've easily walked past him at a store.

DK: And thanks to the politics of this, in your mind, you've already put this, he's, you put it behind ya. It's closed in your mind. He's not home. We have no more answers than we did July 10th.

Cut to Jessica, no question asked

JM: If somebody has him I want them to know that we're not going to give up and we'll find him and doesn't matter what you do as a parents, we will find him.

DK: Till the day I die, I, till the day we die, I will, I will find him. I refuse to leave this earth not knowing where he is and what happened at least. At least knowing that he's ok.

Anonymous said...

"I refuse to leave this earth [without] at least knowing that he's ok".

How can little DeOrr possibly be ok? What does OK mean? Dead?

Anonymous said...

From lynda's transcription:
"Reporter: 'You're saying you have nothing to do with his disappearance?'

DK: 'No.'
JM: 'No.'"

No, they aren't involved; or no, that is not what they are saying?

They both are behaving as if they're revising their act based on public comments from social media, and specifically from this site.

Making it a point to let JM lead, editing leaked confessions and clues, etc.

The way he randomly tosses in words like "politics," that he's heard people who have no defense use to deflect accusations; his angry contempt at those who make it clear they see through all of the ridiculous lies.

As to the crossword puzzles and accusation of plagiarism:

This is the only information I've heard or read about this case, but I always find it interesting when people accused of plagiarism calmly deny it repeatedly, insisting all similarities are entirely coincidental.

If somebody accused me of stealing someone else's work my immediate reaction would be, "WTF?!? If this is actually out there with someone else's byline, they stole my work! What's the date on that?"

Anonymous said...

For eight months I have followed Little DeOrr's case. For eight months I have pored over every news article, interview, and SM site relating to his disappearance. For eight months I have considered, rejected and reconsidered theories. For eight, long months. And I know I am not the only one. There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people just like me, all around the world, desperate for an answer to the questions. What happened to little DeOrr? Where is he?

JM and VDKs statements that people are" like whatever" and "putting it behind them" because of Klein's assertion that he believes the baby is dead, are ludicrous.

They WISH people would "put it behind them and lay it to rest", because they are guilty. They know what happened to their son. They know where he is.

They did not thank LE or the public for the time and money they have spent looking for DeOrr, nor beg for their continued assistance.. Instead, JM and VDK criticized LE and the PI and the public for not believing their lies. As has been pointed out on this site; liars, caught in their lies, attack. They try to defend the indefensible.

I look forward to Chelsea Brentzel, who, in an effort to be impartial and objective has given the JM and VDK
every opportunity to tell "their story", trying to put the pieces together, and finding they they simply don't fit. (As I'm sure poor old Nate E has already discovered.)

Anonymous said...

What do you make of Jessica (apparently in a free editing phase) talking about DeOrr taking cars to the bathroom?

VDK says "making car noises as he goes".

Do parents normally accompany their 2 year olds to the bathroom? Or not? I don't know. It seems they did not.

I know Peter has said that there are no linguistic indicators of abuse, but the bathroom comment makes me wonder.

JMs comment that baby DeOrr does goofy things to cheer her up when she is upset and irritated, also makes me wonder about abuse.

Anonymous said...

IMO referencing taking cars to the bathroom is an odd memory to share, especially considering all of the rumors about the diaper (that was supposedly found and disposed of by JM's mom). That diaper gave many people the impression that Deorr was not yet toilet trained. Perhaps he was 'day' trained but wore a diaper at night?

In my experience it would be normal for a parent to accompany a 2 year old to the bathroom. Toddlers usually need help with buttons or zippers, and help to wipe and wash their hands.

ChristianP said...

I love the confident tone of the article, like it's all wrapped up and were just waiting to swoop in and prosecute. Lol.

So here we are, and nothing...