Thursday, June 26, 2014

Father Denies Knowing Son in Basement

Detroit Police and the FBI were in the house, for days, and did not find the 12 year old in the basement, according to this father.  There is a report that there was a tunnel, to go in and out of the basement.

Listen carefully to his statement.  Give your opinion in the comments section.

Question for readers:   Does he issue a Reliable Denial OR does he enter into the language of his Interviewer?

IF it is in the Free Editing Process it is very likely true.

IF he entered into the language that the Interviewer uses, it is Unreliable.

Unreliable does not mean deception.  It means that we cannot use it and must continue with more statements.

Fox 2 News Headlines

"I didn't know he was in the basement" is the first thing he said, and very straight forward.  Later, he used words like "absurd", which is sensitive.  The sensitivity could be directly related to the context:

He claimed that the FBI and dogs searched there.

Please also note:

Someone can be truthful and wrong.

This means that the person is not deliberately trying to deceive, but is repeating something that is incorrect.

"I didn't know he was in the basement" is a very strong denial if it is said on its own.    This places him in the above 90% category.   He may not be truthful about other circumstances, including his ex wife, or wife, but this statement is very likely to be true IF it is in the Free Editing Process.

However, here is the caveat that must be considered.  It is the wording of the Interviewer:

He was asked, "Did you know your son was in the basement?"  He said, "Man, I did not know my son was in the basement.." which enters the language of the Interviewer.  This is Reflective Language.  It can be true, but what we look for is the Free Editing Process, in which someone, speaking for himself, freely says (and in a case like this, repeats) that he didn't do it, or didn't know it, etc.

In the Gov Christie interview, he gives a reliable denial, sandwiched in between much else, making it Unreliable.  He added to it, violating the simple, three point denial:

1.  Pronoun "I"
2.  Past Tense verb, "did not"
3.  Allegation or Event specific

Anything less or more is to be deemed Unreliable.

Reflective Langauge cannot be deemed Reliable.  It still may be true, but we cannot conclude at that point. By itself, it is strong.

This is why we seek to conduct interviews with general, open ended questions.

There are questions about the step mother that need to be answered.

Please note that in another interview, the father did not deny the step mother's possible involvement.  He only said she "would not" and not "did not" do such a thing.

The step mother will likely be the target of the investigation, along with prior child abuse against both father and step mother.

The police chief interview shows quite a bit of grandstanding which sometimes avoids giving direct answers.


Unreliable Denial--but not necessary guilt.  

Had he said this on his own, it would stand as "Reliable"

more information is needed about the father.

It should be explored if the step mother has known about this and kept it from him.  Dad volunteered polygraph with FBI after turning down local PD.

Father said that the FBI told him it was a murder investigation, blood was found, and that his son had a tweeter account and money, that the father was not aware of.


John Mc Gowan said...

"I'VE been going door to door since he disappeared," he said. "WE didn`t sleep. WE did flyers. WE called family members. And WE have been doing everything WE can since to get the word out to get OUR son back home."

The use of the plural "we" is explained by Christopher Dillingham, who states that his research has shown that those who wish to share guilt will instinctively use the plural pronoun, even when speaking only for oneself.

Note that "our" son is used when there is a need to 'share' ownership. This is often seen when step-parenting (or foster/adoption) is involved. When "our" is used by a family that has no reason to 'share' the child, it may indicate looming divorce.

We have now found out that the father is separated from the maternal mother, and, that their is step mother. This may explain the need to share.

Does he feel guilt about not knowing his son was hiding in the basement, or, are there more nefarious reasons.

The stepmothers statement may yield more regarding this.

Didn't they hear him coming and going, if it is the case that he was hiding from them.

His Polygraph was inconclusive, and the step mother refused to take one.

I'm intrigued to say the least.

Balloon Boy comes to mind.

GeekRad said...

It will be interesting to see what the son has to say. Surely police have a statement from him at this point. I am intrigued too. I dson't think the father knew he was there. I think perhaps the WE comes from sharing guilt with the stepmother that cuased the son to run away and hide. What are the circumstances of him being found? I haven't seen that.

polywog said...

He wasn't in a tunnel. He was barricaded behind boxes and a big drum, The police said that he could not get behind there on his own.

Anonymous said...

I don't think the boy could've been there the entire time, what with all the police/FBI (dog?) searches.

I feel like the father didn't know, possibly the step mother did. I'm not sure at all though yet, at this point. This is very strange.

GeekRad said...

I wonder what prompted an additional search and why he wasn't found in earlier searches. He must not have been there during earlier searches, espeacilly the one with the dogs. The police also said he did not call out to them or try to get their attention. That is curious. This boy is 12 years old and will be able to say what happened. Ugh, I know speculation. I'll stick to the statements.

John Mc Gowan said...

I this vt it is reported that, according to sources, it was his stepmother Monique who was helping him hide out. And giving him food.

The stepmother told police the boy didnt complete his daily exorcise routine, She informed his father. Worried how his dad would react, charlie took of and never come back.

Police are investigating a serious case of child abuse. Where told the father concidered disipline. The boy was home schooled.

He was often beat with a pvc pipe, that has now been taken in as evidence. And that sources say that blood was found in the boys room, and on some of his clothes, thats why the police widened the scope of the investigation.

His father admits to disipline but maintains he was never abused.

"Its only evidence that some crime was committed, no crime was committed here, thats not what happened."

Reporter. "have there been any other sort of abuse, there was blood evidence taken out of that house.

Reply "Yes, there was no abuse of my son"

The stepmother could also face charges.

There is some talk over from reporters i couldn't quite understand. Something to do with his ex wife and the step mother.

GeekRad said...

A report with some actual information reported. Some of the information is what John posted.

Anonymous said...

Wow, so I guess that's why the step mother refused the polygraph. She apparently knew where he was. I still wonder where he was during all the searches. One of those articles said something about someone thinking he had been in the neighborhood, then returned home that day, and the step mother hid him.

John Mc Gowan said...

I have now ascertained his stepmother and his dad are married.


He called assertions that his wife, the boy's stepmother, hid the child in the basement "absurd."

"My wife wouldn't do that," he said.

Anonymous said...

Hope you will review the case of Michelle Rider and son Isaiah. There is a video of the son speaking out against accusations that his mother has munchausen by proxy. He was taken away from her by the state and is in their custody.

Anonymous said...

His reaction to Nancy grace was bizarre he didn't get up, didn't ask how the child was, only defended the search. He didn't say he was happy and kept a somewhat flat affect for the news his son was safe. Deception.

Anonymous said...

Sort of reminds me of Justina Pelletier. She was finally released back to her parents. I don't know why this is happening to families. Parents/patients have a right to 2nd opinions, a right to question medical treatment, etc. With these 2 cases, I don't see Munchausen. Justina's case I followed pretty closely, hopefully the family proceeds with legal action against all those involved, as well as bringing awareness, and hopefully a new law of some sorts. I don't know that much about Isaiah's case, but if it's another like Justina's, I hope they proceed after they are reunited.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

I agree anon 11:48.

He looks 'caught', and even mutters "oh shit".

When Grace asks him why he doesn't have his phone, (basically why is SHE the one telling him this rather than his wife, investigators, etc)...he claims his phone is dead. His son is supposedly 'missing', yet he is unreachable for updates, or for the boy to call him for help!

Then Grace offers him a phone, and a break to call, and he DOESN'T!! He takes the phone, but doesn't dial it. He remains seated and facing the camera. He claims he thought his son was dead, but upon learning he was found safe and alive, he is not desperate to hear his voice, or ripping off the microphone to get home asap.

Check it out:

Sella35 said...

NG- We are getting reports your son has been found in your basement..
CB- Heavy breathing, (doesn't say anything)heavy breathing....never says, WHAT? Is he okay? Is he alive?
Not a normal reaction imo.... We are told to put ourselves in the position and I know I would have asked if he was okay, asked when I can see him, asked if her report has been confirmed, and then I would have left the show.

This is very suspicious.

CB- What? it seems he is stalling for time.

sidewalk super said...

Authorities are suggesting that there is some kind of passage way between all the units, so the missing boy could have played hide and seek with his father, without the father knowing. Some kids act out their lack of parental controls/respect, and that's what I hear from this missing boy in the basement case. If so, he will be gone for good soon enough.
The father on Nancy Grace knows the boy hides, doesn't mean he knew about this particular time.

Unknown said...

Is anyone else having trouble posting comments? For a few days, I have had issues. Either I can't even get a comment window to come up, (when I click 'reply' or 'add comment' nothing happens) or when I click publish the screen displays a 404 error message. (Then sometimes after I rewrite the lost comment, my original appears, like above! lol)

John Mc Gowan said...

Hi Jen, that has happened a few times to me, it happened today. I realized that Peter was updating his OP while i was writing, So when i posted my comment, it wouldn't post, because the OP was deleted and was getting updated, so it had nowhere to go. :-/

Anonymous said...

I believe this father., I don't think it was his first thought to say he didn't know his son was down there I think the journalists were asking him that.

Unknown said...

Hi John, and thanks! I was blaming my phone since the issues started close to when I downloaded the newest software update. I'm glad to know the problem hopefully won't continue!

Anonymous said...

Why do all these parent fake deaths dissapeacsnces of their kids. i want to see this secret tweeter account.

Unknown said...

Hi anon 1:34

Just to clarify:

It would be reliable if it was his own words.

It's unreliable if the words came from the journalist. (Using reflective language)

You should check out the video of him 'finding out' his son was found. He's definitely not in the running for an Oscar with that performance.

Anonymous said...

Oh ya il gettong impression hes worse than i guessed. do yoi have link to the video? Thanks

Unknown said...

Hi anon 1:56

If the 'disappearance' had continued, he would have had fundraisers, and gotten donations, and become a hero father who's tireless efforts brought his son home.

On the father's first visit to NG, he was complaining that he wasn't getting help from the police, they weren't helping him look, and he was 'knocking on people's doors looking for his son', because he wasn't being taken seriously.

Yet, now that his son was found in his basement, he repeats that the police and FBI searched the spot where he was found over and over.

Anonymous said...

Jen - also i posted answr on other one about your question about break in assumptions in elvis case. i agree it could be unrelated to elvis case at all. But its the bizarre theatricality of it that reminded my of the red ex painted on back of elvises door.and other stories of his harrassment. not truly property damaging or but meant to be noticed and with vague ominous implications. Thats why i had the correlation.

Anonymous said...

Or clear in purpose - i meant to write in there

Anonymous said...

That sometimes happens to me too.

When you get the error, try just pushing the refresh, it usually refreshes the page with my comment showing.

John Mc Gowan said...

His stepmother has gone missing, his father has now got an attorney, and is speaking for the family. According to the reporter in this vt, the father took a polly and "Failed miserably".

Charges may include, child neglect, child abuse and obstruction.

somanyways said...

watched nancy grace. love her eyes lighting up when he has nothing tio say --" ooh I got a live one here", haha., she's too funny.

John Mc Gowan said...

@3:33/34 the reporter says "The boy has been found alive in the fathers basement"

He throws his hands up in the air as if to celebrate. However, his true emotions leak out, that of anger. Freeze it frame by frame from 3:35/36. This to me is a major red flag. The expected would be tears of joy and relief, not anger. This, along with his language, are for me, very worrying.

Jo said...

All Nancy says is that reports are coming in that his son has been found in his basement. Dad does not ask if he is ok or even alive for that matter. At this point, he would not know this. He instantly shows relief without knowing that his son is ok.

Anonymous said...

I think he didn't know his son was in basement. But he did know his son was being held captive. he probably assumed he was still in tunnel or at uncles place.

Anonymous said...

he's waiting for more info -- like -- and your son said you held him captive. once he realized thats not coming -- he tries to play the middle road.

it was the same deal when Russell was getting interviewed/interrogated by cops -- "in his mind" he knew his daughter was dead -- but he just couldn't stand the anxiety or thinking maybe she came back to life and told what really happened,

these guys are scared to be made to look a fool.

Unknown said...

I can't see your post yet, (mine was delayed too) but I can see how curious things happening there is strange, IF you assume they are related to Heather.

If you take them at face value, someone basically broke in and used the guys apartment while he was gone. No spookiness, no drama, no mindgames, no profile....just a squatter/trespasser who used the apartment.

The tenant appears to suspect a certain person who is connected to him, so I don't see any reason to think it's related to the previous resident, Heather.

Shame on the horrynews for reporting it as a 'Heather Elvis' headline. What a cheap trick to plaster Heather's name across the headline as if the report was related to her, when there was nothing in the complaint to support that. Her story has a national audience, and although her body has yet to be recovered, the horrynews chose to exploit her tragic death for an attention grabbing headline.

Anonymous said...

I really think this story should help to remind us that missing does not = dead. missing = missing.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you they exploited the story a bit with the headline -- on other hand it is the story. the possability that It could be related is the story. I wonder how many squatters that apartment complex gets? no mention in the article that this is a common occurance around the area. I"d assume it's super rare. the chance that its connected, until disproven, should be on the table.

I really don't know if I even strongly believe it is - bt i don't feel sure its not.

there are a lot of things about this case that remain super unusual IMO. the community fighting for one --- is so bizzare to me. perhaps I can understand why peole were harassing the moorers - as the suspected them of murder, but why was the elvis family getting so much harassment? and bizarre theartical harrassment? I mean how do you really hurt a family more than killing their first born? how was any further damage necessary to get point across? whatever point may be? and why was the anger directed toward the family. it seems - if the moorers did it - it was about heather's personal choices - choices she apparently didn't even allow her family to be privy to. why did it become about hurting her family? that's really weird to me. it's not logical. it makes me think things are more complicated than they appear. I also think its really rare for a parent to put themselves out in the media for so long as the suffering hero - -- are there other cases where innocent parents do this? I don't know of them.

and lastly --- there's such a lack of evidence of death. no struggle signs. no scent picked up by dogs - even of heather herelf at the landingm let alone scent of death/ they dredged the lake, they searched the moorers property nurmerous times.

i agree -- it's very likely they moorers killed her and thats just what happened .

but its still -- unusual. so much surrounding it is unusual. the "teams" the online stuff fighting stuff. it's unusual. I feel a very unsettled feeling about it, the answers we have been given don't feel conclusive.

so -- when something liketis apt break in happens -- and it's also bizarre. obvious, -- almost unnatural even for a squatter; you'd think they'd make some effort to hide their tracks. it just makes me wonder again aboutthe whole thing. and if there's still a way for it to all come into focus and make sense.

like this case with 12 year old boy kept prisoner in a tunnel??! I never would have guessed, but now that it's there to know - ah I feel clarity. I still it's for that kind of clarity with heather -- whatever the truth is that I don't know.

Unknown said...

Mark Klass, Tim Miller, John Walsh, Pam Wetterling (sp), these are a few innocent parents who remain in the public eye crusading for justice for their child, and other victims. Terry Elvis' daughter has yet to be found, the trial date for her accused murderers hasn't even been set. He certainly hasn't extended his time in the spotlight, as his presence is still necessary to pursue justice for his daughter.

As far as the family harassment surrounding the case, it is actually not unusual. Especially in a emotionally charged case like this, and with the, 'caliber' of people the Moorer's are.. Their family, friends and supporters, are their family, friends and supporters for a reason, lol.

Unknown said...

There is a situation similar to the family/community harrasement of this case going on in my Mom's community, and it has gotten so ugly she has to have someone walk her in and out of work in the courthouse.

(An 18yo was killed in an officer shooting a few weeks ago. The 18yo, and two of his friends went to the state troopers home at around 2am and vandalized his two personal vehicles and his cruiser, then tried to kick in the garage door. The officer woke up to his wife screaming and pursued the vandals. All the independent witnesses, (neighbors who awoke to the commotion) stated that the officer shot in self defense as the victim tried to wrestle his weapon away from him, while straddling him on the ground. The officer was injured, along with a neighbor who tried to assist him when he was being beaten up by the victim. (His two accomplices fled after being sprayed with mace, and remain at large.)

The family of the 18yo is running a terror campaign, threatening the lives of the officer, his wife, his kids, other officers, and even the District Attorney for refusing to press charges against the officer. It's a circus. Along with the death threats, the 18yo's family threw water and urine at passing cars who refused to 'honk' support for their protests (yes, multiple) on the steps of the courthouse! They are trying to bully the D.A., and anyone associated with the Prosecutor's office with appalling posts, and their behavior around town is basically rioting. They're toting around huge dogs, and generally trying to intimidate everyone, in the name of 'Justice for Timmy'.

Anonymous said...

That sound intense and I dont doubt you.

just tou counter -- it sounds like the people doing the "harassing" believe their son is not getting justice.

and so they are atacking - in a name of getting attention to get justice or the boy.

as perhaps wrong and misguided as it is -- the logic is there. and their goal is identified.

when somebodu paints a red x on Elvis's door or tells him his daughter is next -- what is their motiivation and what is their goal?

Anonymous said...

and if you say it's the moorers defending themselves -- that too doesn't make sense - the law will go after moorers nomatter what elvises think or do, it's the cops that are their enemy

Anonymous said...

or why would they even bather with petty harassment, if they already killed heather they have the upper hand forever

Anonymous said...

I mea supposedely two men in a jeep verbally identified Morgan as the next victim, following the presumed death of her sister -- if there was ever a time to increase precaution…. but they didn't do anything different, Morgans been off on beauty contest road trips liike every other weekend - she's as out in public as she can get. no body guards, no early curfew. it's as if they KNEW the threat was banal.

and i just think given context -- it's absolutely bizarre to know that

Anonymous said...

Hope it's OK if I interject.
I gotta disgree with Jen somewhat here although I respect her analytical skills.
There are 2 factors here that are in play here that need to be put into the equation surrounding the family harrassment.
1). No perpetrators have been found.

2). In all 3 of the harrassment cases the "benefit" to the harrassers in very unclear.
To expand on this, in the case of the apartment harrassment, the "benefit" to the harrasser would be none as well as the situation is further clouded by the fact that who the actual person the harrassment is intended towards is unclear. Is it the guy living there, Heather's family, Heather?
These are questions a good investigator will consider as relevant in trying to figure out who the person (or people) doing these crimes are.
It does lean towards a possible scenario where it may be these are not community members doing the harrassment, rather someone who is trying to make it look that way.

Anonymous said...

People are speculating, in the comment sections of news articles, that along with the son being abused, that the step mother was too. I don't want to jump to conclusions and accuse a man of abuse. It would fit the situation though, if the step mother was trying to protect the boy from his father. Idk though, hopefully we'll find out the rest of the facts.

Anonymous said...

I agree. I appreciate the interjection. & also I appreciate your comments Jen Ow! I find the conversation very interesting.I really have yet to make up my mind on it myself,

but yes -- this comment is to the point --

it's the consistest murkiness in terms of motive and intended result, ect. in aditional to the lack of any significant qauntifiable damage to property or person - there's kind of restraint- a mitchiefy mildness if you will. that I find unusual and -- thematic.

Anonymous said...

I meant to say too, that it would fit in with the father not really knowing his son was in the basement, and the step mother knowing and refusing thw polygraph.

Anonymous said...

I think the step mother was trying to protect, thats my guess as it lays now

Anonymous said...

Also, the unusual nature of some of the harrassment needs to be considered.
It would certainly be possible for an emotionally sadistic perpetrator to call a victim's family member to taunt them or leave a note. However, the X left on the door in a spot which is difficult to see would not bring that type of cruel personality much satisfaction. The actual perpetrators at that time, I believe, had already been arrested, so there is no way they themselves painted the X.
I would say that if we start seeing actual perpetrators being arrested for the harrassment then things will make some kind of sense. But the more there are no perpetrators identified especially with the one instance where the description of the truck that Terry saw in the 1st harrassment instance was widely publicized by media, the more it looks like the harrassment is from an unknown origin and may not be from a community member but from someone trying to make it look that way.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8;26 said

it's the consistest murkiness in terms of motive and intended result, ect. in aditional to the lack of any significant qauntifiable damage to property or person - there's kind of restraint- a mitchiefy mildness if you will. that I find unusual and -- thematic.

Well said. Interesting about your observation about the nature of it being thematic.

Anonymous said...

thanks :)

Anonymous said...

Step mother arrested for probation violation. Other children taken into state custody. She happens to be the niece of Michigan a
Attorney General candidate.

Anonymous said...

the attourey generanl candidate in is the uncle with the house at the other end of the tunnel.


Anonymous said...

also- I'd think the cops would be determined to find those harassers if they are to be found - considering the chance they could lead to Heather.

Anonymous said...

they cant find heather, so wth makes you think they could find a "harasser"? go to the cops page, miles and miles of posts for criminals they cant find.

Unknown said...

Figuring out the motivation behind criminal behavior is like trying to push a rope, lol. If they were intelligent, logical, right thinking individuals then they wouldn't be commiting crimes!

One reason for the harassing incidents with the Moorer supporters could be that the perps believe anonymous threats (like the 'Morgan's next' comment, of the marking of the door) provide a basis for the claim that the 'real' killer is still out there sending messages.

(Like the woman who killed an innocent stranger in the same way her boyfriend had killed his victim, to 'prove' that he was innocent , and the 'real killer' was still at large while he was in jail.)

I also agree with the anon who said they can't even find Heather, so their priority definitely isn't to chase down a harraser or vandal.
Especially since prosecuting a case of a face to face threat, (he said\she said) or a case of vandalism without an eye witness, or even an known date of the incident is nearly impossible.

Anonymous said...


Oftentimes crime and motive, while not "right-thinking" or morally correct thinking is logical, and some criminals are intelligent. A criminal does not need to be smart either to be logical in that, even in terms of the Heather case, if the Moorers are guilty, there is clear logic (I don't mean good logic I mean we don't have to scratch our heads wondering what motivated Tammy to do her evil deed) in terms of Tammy hated/was jealous of Heather and so she harmed her.
Your theory is interesting though that Moorer supporters could be doing the harrassment to send a message the real killer is still out there. In my opinion, if they in fact did that, it would be very calculated and would require a high level of intelligence (because this behavior esp the apartment harrassment) would require a lot of abstract thinking and a scheming mind. Which makes it possible in that I don't know every or any Moorer supporter and how smart they are.
But, I doubt it.
Whoever did the apartment thing wanted to be noticed, very desperately. I think a lot of the things the guy living there noticed were not "accidental". Oops, forgot to put the TV channel back. Oops, just happend to forget to eat the toast. Etc. Hmmm. The clogged overflowing toilet that flooded the bathroom. It is all so strange and the love note left in Spanish.
I wondered could this be a person who just knows the guy and is harrassing him. But what are the odds?? That someone just happens to be doing this very strange behavior to him when he lives in Heather's old apartment not too long after she disappeared?
Anyway, my thoughts for what they're worth.