Sunday, June 22, 2014

Measuring Time and Form in A Statement


Time and Form

by Peter Hyatt  


Recently, we saw the case of a father who's 4 year old child died while in a locked vehicle at his home.  He gave a statement about what happened which we measured it "on its form" showing that he gave a lengthy introduction to what happened, before getting to the finding of his unresponsive daughter. 

It was more than 80% of his words dedicated to the time period "before" finding his daughter.  Even though it may have been incomplete, and a complete statement would likely adjust this number downward, it's extremity itself tells us that the statement is "Unreliable based upon its form" so that as the investigation proceeds, the investigator will be alert for deception.  This is an article from the trainings I conduct for investigators, Human Resources professionals, internal investigators, therapists, and others needing to learn deception detection.  

The live class involves not only more examples, but has the benefit of question and answer sessions, and further explanation.  This is a useful tool for businesses in which deception detection is important, including weeding out potential employees who, statistics and common sense tells us, willing to lie in the application and interview process, will bring trouble to the company.  This trouble ranges from simply impacting morale, down to false claims and theft.  

It is critical today, especially with the acceptance in society of the lack of integrity in the name of competition, for companies to know how to discern, not only truth from deception, but truthful employees from trouble-making deceptive ones.  

In our analysis, the issue of time is an important one.  We view time in four distinct ways within a statement:

  1. Objective Time
  2. Subjective Time
  3. Form
  4. Temporal Lacunae or Missing Time.

We view “form” as a complete overview of a written statement. 

As said elsewhere, the order in which someone speaks is always important, and order can be viewed within the subject of “time” as when something is out of chronological order, it is a strong sign of deception within the statement.  When someone speaks from memory, it is easy to recall what happened, and in fact, the subject can likely tell you, just as easily, the events in reverse, going backwards.  Memory that is experiential is not taxed because the recall is chronological. 
Let’s look at how we measure “time” within a written statement.

  1. Objective Time

Objective Time is any time mentioned within a statement by the subject.  We then take the time mentioned and write it on the margin of the paper exactly as the subject wrote it.

       2. Subjective Time

Subjective Time is a measurement (connected to “form”) of the pace of the statement. This is done by counting the number of lines in a statement, and measuring the passing of Objective time.

       3.  Form

  Form is the overall breakdown of an event as written by the subject.  In the form there is generally an introduction, a description of the event, and then what happened after the event. 

  1. Temporal Lacunae  

This is when we encounter missing gaps of time as seen by phrases such as “the next thing I know” and “later on” as well as “after” or any other term that spans time.  We highlight any Temporal Lacunae in “pink” so that we are able to revisit the time period in our interview.

Petty Cash Fund Missing
“At 6a, I got up, turned off my alarm clock, brushed my teeth, and hit the shower. I ate some pop tarts and left the house at 6:50AM.  The traffic was really bad and I had to make some stops and get gas. At the gas station I saw a guy I knew and talked for awhile about my car.  The brakes have been making noise lately and he works there part time and said he could fit me in next week but I don’t know how much money it is going to cost.
I got to work around 7:20a and listened to my messages.  I had a large number waiting for me because I took off time from work the previous week. I also had to collect data from each of the supervisors and get them each to sign the right forms which meant going to each office. 
At 8a I had to be at a meeting and at 9a I knew the boss would be waiting for the report.
At 10a I finished up the report from yesterday. Left the office for awhile.  Gym. Signed out. 12pm is usually lunch and at 2p I finished my typing. 
At 230p I was feeling sick from not drinking enough water which sometimes happens at the gym.  I usually work out at high intensity and if I don’t drink enough fluids I can become sick to my stomach. After that I knew I needed to get work done.
1p I met with the boss.  He told me about the missing petty fund. It was the first I had heard someone tell me about it.  I don’t think he thinks I did it or anything but he talked to me a lot about it as if I knew what happened to it. I feel like he wasn’t accusing me or anything, but I don’t remember what I said to him about it.
At 2:30PM I told him that I still felt sick and left.
Met my boyfriend for the first time that day.  He was angry that the boss maybe thought that I knew what happened to the missing cash. We went to the pharmacy and then got home later.
I gave my final report in that day from the day before at 9:30a.  The boss acts like I always forget but I don’t.
Around 6p I ate dinner with boyfriend. I think I was probably watching TV when I fell asleep afterwards.  I turned out the light and went to sleep.”

  1. Objective Time.

Objective time is what she told us, using mostly 8a, 9a symbols.  When there is a change, we note it and will ask questions about the time period that is marked differently.  In the interview, the investigator learned 6:50AM was significant because her boyfriend was screaming at her.  The investigator learned this because during the interview, having marked “brushed my teeth,” he asked about her boyfriend and she revealed fear of him.  She ran from him at 6:50AM into her car.  The investigator also noticed that 2:30PM was not the usual 2:30p.  This was due to the guilt she felt when the boss questioned her about the money.

In her statement, she goes out of chronological order towards the end, where she wrote “9:30a.”  Because the investigator simply wrote the objective times on the margin of his photocopied statement, he found it out of order.  This is an indication of deception. When truthful innocent people speak or write from memory, they can recall it forwards and backwards. When something is out of order, it is “just remembered” and is an indication of deception within the statement (not necessarily at the time, but in the statement, overall).  We mark this as a sign of deception and proceed attempting to learn what it is that the subject is being deceptive about.

  1. Subjective Time.

Subjective time is a measurement used in Statement Analysis to indicate deception within a written statement.

Years of data compiled since the 1920’s has shown that people will normally write about 3 lines per hour when writing what happened. In other words, they will devote an average amount of information per passing hour. 
In Adult Protective investigations, staff is told to write out what they did during their shifts, which may include overnight asleep time. Therefore, we remain flexible about the averages used.  However, the principle remains the same:
Any deviation from average is noted.
So, if a staff person averages only 1 line per hour (which in a criminal or civil investigation would be flagged as deceptive),  we will measure 1 line per hour as average, and flag any strong deviations from it.
The norm is 3 lines per hour.  When someone writes 1 line per hour or less, it means that at that time frame, deception is present.  If someone writes above 9 lines per hour, deception is coming soon in the statement.
Why?
It’s actually simple.
Let’s say that you stole your office phone at 12:30PM, while everyone was down in the cafeteria.
It was discovered to be missing.
Because 20 people worked there, interviewing all of them would be difficult, so instead, we interview them through the use of the Questionnaire. The Questionnaire is a few short questions in which those who are truthful are quickly cleared (sometimes it only takes a few moments in reading Page 8 of the Questionnaire). The likely percentage would be that of the 20 people who filled out the questionnaire, 14 of them are immediately cleared and dismissed, with 6 remaining.
We then review the 6 remaining and view the other pages.  Likely, there will be 5 who will be cleared by the other pages.
There is one left.
We then take the one left and use Statement Analysis on page 5 which asks the subject to write out what they did from the time they got up until the time they went home.
Now, the person who stole the phone writes out, on page 5, everything they did from the time they woke up, until the time of this writing.
They KNOW that they stole the phone at 12:30PM.
How will they write?
Just like anyone would write who knows that they have done something wrong.
They will slow down the morning pace.

Why?

Because they don’t WANT to get to 12:30PM when the phone was stolen!  This will be evidenced by lots of extra details at 8AM, 9AM, etc. Then suddenly at 12PM, they will likely write very little (and may drop the pronoun “I”) until they get to the after lunch period, and then write what they did from 1PM until 5PM at a more normal pace, perhaps 3 lines per hour.
At 6AM, they were writing a comfortable 2 or 3 lines per hour until, perhaps 8AM when they arrived at work.  Now the pace is about to slow down.
At 8AM, they were writing upwards of 6, 7, 8 or even 9 lines per hour; stalling.  This is an indicator to the investigator that deception is coming soon. (9 lines per hour and above is considered to be 100% deceptive in investigative statements.)
But at 12noon until 1PM, they glossed over it quickly. Why?  Because lying (and stealing) is stressful and they want to “get past it” quickly!  After the theft, the subject returned back to a more normal pace. 
This change is noted by the investigator, who has analyzed the statement BEFORE conducting the interview, and presses questions around the 12 noon time period touching upon the sensitivity of the theft eventually producing an admission of guilt.
This is why we measure Subjective Time before an interview.  We remain flexible, particularly with staff who do overnight hours, as they may have a norm that is different than most who work standard hours.  In this case, we note deviations from their own established norm.


  1. Form

The same studies that have concluded that investigative statements are considered normal to have 3 lines per hour (we made allowance for businesses that have overnight staff) and 1 line per hour or less to be deception present, and above 6 lines per hour to be deceptive (with 9 lph being the threshold for certainty) have also concluded that the form of a statement will also indicate truthfulness and deception.
In a statement where an investigation is done around a particular event, innocent and guilty people alike will describe what happened by introducing the issue, writing about the issue, and reporting what happened after the issue.
Example Statement:
Allegation:  Staff slapped Client in parking lot which was witnessed by 2nd staff.  First staff denies hitting client.
The witness staff wrote: 
I was walking the client to her day program. 
She was having some challenges that day. 
The client began to become agitated and yelled at me and Staff B.
 The client said she did not want to go to day program and picked up
 her soft drink and threw it into the face of staff B. Staff B was very angry and
 turned to the client and  said, “You don’t do that to me!
 Now I have to change my shirt” and I saw Staff B
 slap the client across the face with her open hand. 
Then, I told Staff B to go inside and calm down and took the client back to the
 house and called the supervisor.” 
Let’s now break down this account to see if we are able to measure it for reliability.  We look to break it down to the three elements:  1.  Introduction  2.  Event   3.  Post event


I.               Introduction:  I was walking the client to her day program.  She was having some challenges that day.”

This is the introduction and we would expect it to be shorter than the actual assault.
II.             “The client began to become agitated and yelled at me and Staff B. The client said she did not want to go to day program and picked up her soft drink and threw it into the face of staff B. Staff B was very angry and turned to the client and said, “You don’t do that to me!  Now I have to change my shirt” and I saw Staff B slap the client across the face with her open hand.”

The issue is the assault and the witness has used more lines to describe the assault.
III.           “Then, I told Staff B to go inside and calm down and took the client back to the house and called the supervisor. 

The “after event” is also short. This would be an indication of veracity based on its form.
The “form” is one indicator of truth or deception.  Honest statements are generally within the bounds of
25% introduction
50% body of what happened
25% post event
Our sample statement is 10 lines long.
2 lines before slap
6 lines describing slap
2 lines after slap

20 % pre event
60% event
20% post event.

This falls close to our expected parameter and would be deemed reliable based upon its form.  This same process can be used by counting words instead of lines and the results will be roughly within the same parameters of reliability. 
85% of deceptive people have most of their statement added  to the “before” time than they do to the “after” (LSI)  The lengthy introduction appears to show either a delay of getting to the incident by the guilty, or a lengthy explaining ‘away’ of what happened.  In deceptive statements, we may find 70% introduction, 20% event, and 10% after event. 
Investigators are taught:   prior to the interview, photocopy the statement as a standard practice.
 Before reading the statement:  Circle all pronouns. Then, count the number of lines in a statement.  If the subject has used more than 33% of the statement without getting to the topic or main event, the Interviewer should suspect that deception might be present within the statement.  If it is very much out of balance, it is likely deceptive.
This is most useful in the “he said; she said” discrepancies that we often face.

Allegation:  Client reports being slapped in the face by Staff B. 
Client is well known to fabricate. No physical evidence of the slap exists.
Staff B denies hitting client.
Staff A reports witnessing the slap.
Staff B and Staff A used to date and had an unpleasant break up.  As many of you know, this is not uncommon among direct support staff.
This is the “he said; she said” standoff that can be easily dismissed by using our principles of analysis before conducting the interview.  This is helpful, in particular, for those of you who also work in Human Resources and are responsible for dealing with allegations between staff. 
An agency faced something similar to this in which Staff B accused Staff A of sexual harassment.  The Agency said that their usual protocol would be to have each staff write out a statement, but in this case, the “he said; she said” appeared to be unsolvable.  They reported that Staff B denied being in a relationship with Staff A.  No witnesses; no text messages, love letters, etc.  The Agency asked if I could help.
I received the two statements, photocopied them, and circled the pronouns. I reported back to the Agency that they needed to confront Staff B and say “I have inside information that reports that you and Staff A did actually have a relationship.  How do you explain it?”
The Agency did and reported back to me that the lawsuit wasn’t going forward, as Staff B admitted being in a relationship with Staff A.  How did I know?  The answer is simple:
I measured the form because it was one particular date and time where Staff B alleged that Staff A had cornered her in the break room and made suggestive comments.  I found Staff B to test deceptive.
I also circled the pronouns. 
The pronoun “we” was used in sensitive areas. 
“We” told me that there was cooperation between them and that Staff A had been factual (his statement tested reliable on its form).  Staff B was transferred to another location and quickly began a new relationship with another staff, just as Staff A did after Staff B’s transfer.  Staff will give us no shortage of practice in analyzing statements.  J  Both described each other as “friends,” but one said “a friend” and the other said the stronger “my friend,” which gave an indication of closeness.  Staff B wrote “I didn’t think my friend would say such things to me,” rather than “a friend” which told me that there was closeness there that Staff B did not want the reader to know about.
With Subjective Time, 70+ years of research has shown:
The average written investigative statement is between 1 and 1 ½ pages long.
The structure or “form” of a statement is a quick linguistic lie detector.
Be flexible with the 25/50/25 form, but note any extremes as deceptive.
If 85% of deceptive people give long introductions, take note of the quick post event language.  “I wrote up a reportable and that’s it.”  Usually, when an event has taken place, peripheral staff will be impacted about what happened and will talk to this person or that person and may include emotions in the conclusion.
  1. Temporal Lacunae

“And after that, I…” tells us that time has spanned by, and we do not know, from the statement what happened.  “The next thing I know, the client woke up and said her money was missing” tells us that the subject has passed over time and has left out information.
A temporal lacunae does not, by itself, indicate deception.  It means that information has been left out which the subject either does not consider important, or, the subject knows it is important and has left it out on purpose.
The rule of thumb:  flag any passing of time (pink if it is in a written statement) and make a note to visit it in the interview.
“You said, ‘the next thing I know;’ tell me about that.  “I don’t remember.”  When you encounter this response do not accept it. “Take a moment. What happened?“ and “What happened just before that?” and continue to dig using vague and open language.  Often flagging the missing time for follow up questions usually indicates lateness for work, but every so often, it is the critical missing period of time which is relevant to the investigation.  If the skipped time is due to a theft, or incident of abuse by the staff being interviewed, simply focusing question after question on that period of time, will cause a guilty subject to become upset, and at this point, let them speak, including using pauses.
The following are the answer to the most common questions that subjects ask us, especially if we have identified deception in the written statement, on its form. The subject is stalling and may even seek to build an impasse:

  1.  Where should I begin?
A.   From the beginning.

Q.   What do you want to know?
A.   Everything

Q.  But that would take a long time.
A.  Tell me what you think is important for me to know.

Q.  Ask me specific questions and then I will tell you.
A.  How can I ask you if I don’t know?  Answer me and then I’ll ask you specific questions.
Subjects want to know what we know. This last request will come from a subject who likely has some guilt or guilty knowledge of abuse, neglect or exploitation, and wants to find out what it is that you, the Interviewer, know, so that the subject can lie.  Specific questions give this information away and may contaminate the interview. Closed ended questions, especially early in an interview, not only reveal what you know, but teaches a subject how to lie.
 If the subject pauses, we should not tell them to go on.  We should wait and look at him.  Wait with patience and confidence. 
Rule:  Write down what the subject says; not what you think the subject said. Do not be concerned about the time.  I simply say “I want to write down exactly what you tell me” (on critical questions) “so that I won’t make mistakes.”  Honest interviewees appreciate this.  Allow pauses to pass even if it is socially uncomfortable or impolite.
This impasse may arise at the temporal lacunae, which now tells you that the information is sensitive and it is something the subject does not want you to have. It will be revisited until we get the information we need. This is exhausting work.
The temporal lacunae and the quickening pace generally are seen together. It is difficult to pick up audibly during an interview, but does come with practice.
If you hear a phrase like, “and then later on” along with a missing pronoun, you are likely at the place where the event took place, and likely speaking to the person responsible for abuse, neglect, or exploitation.
Since pronouns give us ownership, and we see by the temporal lacunae that the subject does not want to take “ownership” of the time that passed, you will likely find that he will drop pronouns. 
Returning to our sample statement:

“At 6a, I got up, turned off my alarm clock, brushed my teeth, and hit the shower. I ate some pop tarts and left the house at 6:50AM.  The traffic was really bad and I had to make some stops and get gas. At the gas station I saw a guy I knew and talked for awhile about my car.  The brakes have been making noise lately and he works there part time and said he could fit me in next week but I don’t know how much money it is going to cost.

I got to work around 7:20a and listened to my messages.  I had a large number waiting for me because I took off time from work the previous week. I also had to collect data from each of the supervisors and get them each to sign the right forms which meant going to each office. 
At 8a I had to be at a meeting and at 9a I knew the boss would be waiting for the report.
At 10a I finished up the report from yesterday. Left the office for awhile.  Gym. Signed out. 12p is usually lunch and at 2p I finished my typing. 

At 230p I was feeling sick from not drinking enough water which sometimes happens at the gym.  I usually work out at high intensity and if I don’t drink enough fluids I can become sick to my stomach. After that I knew I needed to get work done.

1p I met with the boss.  He told me about the missing petty fund. It was the first I had heard someone tell me about it.  I don’t think he thinks I did it or anything but he talked to me a lot about it as if I knew what happened to it. I feel like he wasn’t accusing me or anything, but I don’t remember what I said to him about it.

At 2:30PM I told him that I still felt sick and left.

Met my boyfriend for the first time that day.  He was angry that the boss maybe thought that I knew what happened to the missing cash. We went to the pharmacy and then got home later.
I gave my final report in that day from the day before at 9:30a.  The boss acts like I always forget but I don’t.

Around 6p I ate dinner with boyfriend. I think I was probably watching TV when I fell asleep afterwards.  I turned out the light and went to sleep. 



We have seen that the subject had sensitivity in the home life with her boyfriend, was rushing off to work while arguing, had a change of pace at 8a, and dropped the use of pronouns when she left her office. 

  1. Did she go to the gym?
  1. We don’t know; therefore we cannot say that she did go to the gym. By leaving off the pronouns, she would like us to think that she went to the gym.  The suIDen disappearance of pronouns shows distance, as she “removes” herself from the gym.

Note:  We not only circle all pronouns, but we make a circle where a pronoun should be.
This woman was arrested and charged with theft.  Her boyfriend was abusive and pressured her into it to support his drug habit. The money was taken from “petty cash” something employees often kicked in for special luncheons and parties.  She claimed to have left work not feeling well, which was truthful; she was sick to her stomach worried that she would be caught.  Notice also in her language that she “knew what happened” to the missing fund, which is now “cash.”  The “fund” became “cash” when she gave it to her boyfriend, as “cash” is spent, but “fund” is collected and held for a purpose. Notice “told” instead of “said” in relation to the boss, who is not properly introduced (poor relationship).

The boss had suspected her because there had been rumors around the office that she lived with an abusive drug dealer, and had come to work under the influence of narcotics a few times. Although arrested, an agreement was reached to return the stolen money and enter rehab as well as receive counseling for the domestic violence.

For Time:

We view Objective Time, which is the times the subject mentions in the statement. We note any changes in how it is expressed, and we note that if anything is out of chronological order, there may be deception.

We view Subjective Time, as most investigative statements are 1 to 1 ½ pages long, and average 3 lines per hour. We make allotment for Adult Protective investigations where long periods of staff time, written often as a “log” are submitted, and note any change in the pace.


We view the overall Form of a statement, knowing that any deviation from 25% introduction, 50% event description, and 25% post event may indicate deception. This is a powerful linguistic polygraph device that can be a time saver for busy investigators.

55 comments:

GeekRad said...

Thank you for another great lesson Peter. I love these lessons.

Jen Ow said...

Thank you Peter for this great refresher article.

As long as I have been reading, these articles always remind me how much work goes into SCAN, and how brilliant (yet, deceptively simple, and logical) the principles are.

I thank you for your hard work, and for sharing your knowledge with us on this blog!

john said...

Peter, here is the full statement from Russell Lindstrom.

VIDEOS: Father - 'This is one of the worst days of my life'

All spelling errors are from me lol.

RL. "I'm 33yrs old, i'm a twoo combat vet from the war in iraq, i was medically retired out of the army as seargent e5 after i got blown up on my last appointment doing (i cant understand what he says here) to security. (Long pause) . I v'e been out for 4/5 yrs now. And, ive been a stay at home dad taking care of my kids ever since they were born."


"Yesterday started out pretty much like anyother day there was a little bit of excitement, because, the vehical my daughter died in, we were supposed to be trading in for another vehical yesterday a 2008 Chevy avalanch. And, my kids were really excited because they were going to get to out and leave the house (i cant understand what he says here) caus they were going to say Bye Bye. And, when they got up in the morning,ate breakfast and came outside because a couple of days ago it rained and they were cooped up in the house and thier very real out doors kids. And, so they came outside and i was outside with them and they ran around the yard playing Dora The explorer. They even tried to run of into the woods a couple of times, like she does on the cartoon. I had to yell at them and tell them to stay in the yard a couple of times because of it. And, lunch time came around they came in the house, i fed them something to eat. And we came outside after they were done eating, maybe an hour later, you know i cant be accurate on times.

john said...

Cont..

There is a break here. It then goes back to him.


"What happens was my kids generally put themselves down for a nap so they wouldve still been outside playing a lot, and you know especially on a warm day. And they came into the house and started playing in their room quietly, and they both wrapped up in their blankets, and, layed down, and i thought they went to sleep, so i figured i had some time to go and do some chores in the house, i was in the back of the house doing laundry and straightening things up, and in between doing some laundry i go sit on my bed which is the next room over from them. And, because from my room i can always hear them, when they start getting up and moving around. And, so i thought they were asleep. thought i had time to do some chores and didn't have to woryy about them. And i came outside to have a cigarette, and, my fiance's little brother came outside and asked when was the last time i actually seen my kids was. And, i told him it was about an hour and both of us immediately got up and started looking for the cos, anytime your a parent and somebody brings up the fact that you havn't seen your kids in a little while, you go look for them. Then so we go check the house and they weren't in their room anywher in the house, checked all the rooms in the house, all the places they like to hide and get into things. We couldn't find them, so, my first thought was because they tried to go into the woods around the house playing earlier, thats what they might have done. And, there is a trail that runs behind the house that we had taken them on a few timesAnd, So he took of in one direction of the trail and i took of the other direction sreeming and yelling, we couln't find them. I made it back upto the yard pretty quickly. And, i saw the aaah truck, and i immediatley thought you know i had a bad feeling so i ran over to the truck and i saw my kids ( I think he says laying ?) (??????) unconscious in the back of the truck. And, i tried to open the doors they were locked so i had to run into the hous and grab the car keys. Come out, unlocked the doors. I grabbed my eldesy first because she was laying on the back seat with her eyes open, in a puddle of vomit.

john said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
john said...

Cont..

And so i grabbed her she was burning hot, ran her over next to the pool right here, trying to cool her off a little bit without throwing her into shock. And, then i ran back over to the vehical and i grabbed my youngest girl and she was kinda moaning and fought against me as i was trying to pull her out of the vehicle, so i just (???) up here to the porch and layed her on the cool concrete in the shade. And, i came over and aah my eldest daughters aah responces to see if she was in shock or (???) a pulse, i couldn't find anything, her eyes were wide open her pupils wouldn't dialate, err her capulary repsonce was negative, like i said i couldn't find a pulse or heart beat or breathing."


Question asked: "So you called 911?"

RL: "I Called yeah, i called 911, err my phone got wet and died or over heated and died"<<< (Interesting choice of words, edit that if you want to Peter.). During the 911 calls, all i was able to do was give them my address, and tell them, you know, i found my kids in the Tr--Vehicle unresponsive. And, i started doing rescue breathing on my daughter trying t-keep her alive. Or, at least give her a chance to come back.

RL: I'm a two time combat vet ive seen death you kno and the (???laughs,) a few times. And when i look at my daughter i knew, in my mind i knew, my heart and sole, making me hope they can revive her. I was just trying to keep her going. Keep oqygen in her till she can get help. The only (?????) keep the vehicles locked, because it wasn't the first time they ever tried to get into the vehicles and play, especially when they thought we were going somewhere. cos theyl always get excited when they thought they were going to go somewhere, and so normally we kept the vehicles locked. Because, a while back they had done the same thing, but it was like fall or winter."

john said...

Cont..

They move onto the porch:


"Deffinately took after me and their mother cos they were very out doors, they liked to climb trees the liked to explore things, especially places wher they wern't supposed to be.
theres nothing worse.( he gets interupted here and a question is posed to him)


Q; "have you talked to you Fiance at all or?"


RL: "I got to see her a little bit at the hospital, and a little bit last night, or at midnight when she came and get some of my err youngest daughters stuff."

Reporter: " I'm imagine she's as devastated as you are?"


RL: "yeah, we didn't really talk much, i told her that i was under investigation and i'm probably going to be charged with anything from neglect to involuntary manslaughter. And, so there is a good chance im going to jail and won't be able to see my daughter for a long time."

Anonymous said...

Are we sure young brother didn't do it? Snuck em out into truck.then asked dad when was last time you saw your kids? Gives that whole question context. gives dads bewilderment context. gives everything context. esp if younger bro has brain injury.

Anonymous said...

Are we sure young brother didn't do it? Snuck em out into truck.then asked dad when was last time you saw your kids? Gives that whole question context. gives dads bewilderment context. gives everything context. esp if younger bro has brain injury.

Anonymous said...

I think younger bro did it. like a game. and dad either diesnt realize or doesnt want to realize.

Anonymous said...

I have wondered that too, but felt bad to think it, considering he has a brain injury, and not knowing anything about him, or having any statements from him. Or like someone else said, maybe the father baited him into asking when he last saw the kids. Idk, this is a strange case. There's potentially a witness, but he has a brain injury. Technically I guess they were both the last adults with the kids, idk how reliable any of the brothers statements would be though.

Anonymous said...

How "reliable" is the fathers statements, in regards to basic SA, with his former traumatizing experiences, with death, combat, etc., from his service, and PTSD? If he is suffering from PTSD, would that cause deception or unreliability in his statements on such an obvious traumatic experience?

Anonymous said...

He said "apparently unconscious...".

Anonymous said...

We can assume girls didnt get in there by themsrlves. but maybe which adult put them in thrre.. is still open

Anonymous said...

The question " when was last time you actually saw your kids" means somebody knew tio much. but actually makes more sense if brother knew too much and thats why he asked. like hes getting tired of waiting for dad to realize kids are missing.

Anonymous said...

I can agree with that, but we don't even know if the brother even really asked that question. The father might have thought it would "look good" if someone else was now involved, as a witness, and in the split second decided to word it as "when was the last time you actually saw them', but obviously thinking about it, someone would not ask that, unless either they knew the kids were missing, or if the kids were already deemed missing.

That one possible question, definitely raises a lot of questions.

Anonymous said...

we’re all going to be embarrassed that all this happened

Anonymous said...

what happened or what could’ve.”

Anonymous said...

Agreed we dont kniw for sure if brother even worded it like that. but if he did say that and without prompting i think father is innocent.

Anonymous said...

If somebody close to family is saying parents are loving i think that should be taken as caution to drawing conclusion from distance.

Hobnob said...

Dexter: I don't think much of this doggy gobstopper, it only has one flavor and it's mud :)

Anonymous said...

'During the 911 calls, all i was able to do was give them my address, and tell them, you know, i found my kids in the Tr--Vehicle unresponsive. And, i started doing rescue breathing on my daughter trying t-keep her alive. Or, at least give her a chance to come back.'

look where the "untruth" comes in--right before he tells the operator he found his kids in the vehicle he says "you know" then says "I found my kids in the tr-vehicle unresponsive."

EVERYTHING I am reading points to him staging the scene as a heat death from the kids locking themselves in car.

Why does he switch from "Tr--" to "vehicle"? Was he going to say "truck" or something else??

Did "truck" become "vehicle" in his mind after he cleaned it out??

Anonymous said...

Agreed he didnt really find them in truck because he put them in there. that why he says or at least give her a chance to come back. He had already asessed that she was dead some time previous. but i think he assesed wrongly. i think she drowned in kiddie pool. and then threw up in. car. Thats why all talk of her capilary respose etc. he thought she was dead. he thought it was accidental death and he was covering for himself. but it was really ..call it manslaughter because he put her in that car and then she vomited.

C5H11ONO said...

How come Staff A was not fired for slapping the client? Is it because Staff B stated that the client threw something to Staff A first?
-Wouldn't the client be liable for assault? What happened, give us the details here!

Anonymous said...

"you get too close you gotta watch out for the thorns, but sometimes it was worth it"

is the quote, with some mumbling preceeding it I can't make out.

sure -- I'll post on dog instead

Anonymous said...

if anybody can make out the mumbling I'd love ot know what he's saying!

Anonymous said...

there was a little excitement = sexual arousal

it had rained earlier = ejaculation


sorry, don't need statement analysis to see that, just sourcing basic literary analysis, if this were a shakespheare (sp) sonnet thats exactly what those phrases would mean.

Anonymous said...

they loved nature = ??

that one I CAN NOT figure out, but it means something cause it's just too unnecessary and weird.

Jen Ow said...

I'm a bit confused by it too...playing outside, does not equate to 'loving nature', in my book.

'Nature', makes me think of camping, wilderness, maybe even gardening...but playing outside in the backyard is not the image evoked by the word nature for me.

Anonymous said...

I think "nature" is sensitive.
He harps on it way to much and even the commenter who said they knew the family talked about how the parents loved nature.
It is odd because it doesn't directly correlate with them going in the car.
I think maybe he brought her in the woods or car to abuse her.

Jen Ow said...

I was convinced that this was a case of neglect caused by drug abuse. I see a lot of addict behavior, with the rationalizing and excuse making.

BUT, the thorns quote really bothers me. It would be a rude thing to say about a girlfriend/fiance, but in the context of his own child it is disturbing. He is basically admitting his daughter did not want to be touched by him, or even be close to him.

I find that VERY strange for a child that age. My little guy is a cuddler, and while I understand all kids are different, my nephew is the same way. Also the kids I used to nanny were very clingy at that age as well.

It disturbs me to hear that quote, coupled with his statement about his younger daughter 'fighting against him'. Something seems more 'off', than I initially thought.

Anonymous said...

Jen,

I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head with recognizing an addict mentality. I was not convinced drugs were a factor but after reading your analysis of the nature of his manipulations and rationalizations I am convinced he is an addict (probably to the opiate painkillers).
I think the quote about thorns is deeply disturbing, and I also think it suggests a delusional, disturbed and abusive way of viewing the daughter.

Anonymous said...

I agree Jen, and to add to that, I feel like the statement isn't even that simple, as her not liking to be near him or whatever. I think it's an insult to her personality; she was beautiful (like a rose, on the outside), but thorny (personally on the inside). Who the hell says that about their daughter, especially their dead daughter?! It's also very disturbing, regarding the seemingly sexual nature of it. Like you said, rude towards a gf or wife - "she's b****y, but worth it sometimes". Well gee, what would the "sometimes" most likely be a reference to?

I can't believe how disturbing this case became. :( I hope my thoughts are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Could nature = nudity?

Anonymous said...

Anon, that is possible nature could equal nudity to him in his mind. It definitely means something to him more than just woods.
It is strange how the commenter said the parents love nature and the Dad says kids are so outdoorsy/love nature. He equates this to being opposite of a prisoner.
Addict rationalization for why he doesn't keep an eye on them or did he bring them there to woods to abuse them?

Anonymous said...

agreed - it's derrogatory toward Bella even if by some chance it's not sexual

Anonymous said...

I noticed the commentor some of yoy suspect is Russell (I'm not sure) said SOME of the assumptions you are making are not true at all. does that mean some of them are?

Anonymous said...

I should have put this here:

It sounds like, "if you get too close, not careful she's sharp(?), you just gotta watch out for the thorns, but sometimes it was worth it".

Idk, what do you think?

Anonymous said...

it kinda does sound likre that, I think I do hear "sharp". i dunno, but at the least I think it's weird he didn't want to be clear at that point.

Anonymous said...

http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_b1286026-fb1e-11e3-9b42-0017a43b2370.html

Heather Elvis' old apt has a stalker.

weird!!!

is she being kept alive by somebody obsessed with her? Is there another player in her disappearance? Or is this just a guy who got obsessed after the fact from all the posters etc, -- so unusual.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:32

Just read the article.
It is very strange and seems to bear similarities to other separate events reported by Terry Elvis. Example would be writing left on the back of his door at work even though noone usually saw that side of door.
The "I love you very much" note left in Spanish is another odd communication which has been allegedly left for someone who is not there to read it and written in a language other than English.

Anonymous said...

Also, the actions done in the Heather Elvis apartment, from the minimal amount of profiling I know, I would think it would be someone concerned with the Heather Elvis case, but the intrusion of space and what would amount to extreme mental harrassment of the male occupant of Heather's old apartment would lead me to believe that whoever is doing these acts is directing them towards the male occupant.
I would suspect a sociopathic type of profile with the individual as what they are doing is messing with the occupant's mind in a way that really suggests some pathology.

Anonymous said...

I just reread the article.
The actions done by the intruder: bread in toaster, moving shower head, changing TV channel, etc etc, blocking toilet and overflowing it, this is not someone who is sneaking in to use the apartment, it's someone who is sneaking in and they are moving things around in a way that is not subtle. The flooding of bathroom, this would be considered destruction of property, so this is overt aggression, yet it is not extreme aggression where the individual is going in and smashing things, etc.
I don't think these types of actions would point to an individual obssessed with Heather romantically, despite the short love note left.
This is an individual who enjoys messing with people's heads and it would be someone who has done this type of 'moving stuff around' type of action to other individuals.
I would say this is someone emotionally invested in the case. I would say that this individual does not want the male occupant living in the apartment for whatever reason.
I would say the mind-messing actions and intrusion are directed at him.
The "I love you very much" written in Spanish note does not seem to "match" the actions which are aggressive mind-messing actions which seem to be directed towards the occupant.
So, I would question whether the intruder is really obssessed with Heather or is somehow invested in the case and lashing out at the male occupant who I would think from his actions he does not want living there as well as he feels animosity towards him for whatever reason.

Anonymous said...

ya I dunno - it it about Heather or about the guy living there now? My guess is its about Heather. It's just so wavkadoodle!! ha, thats my best description rt now.

in other news did you hear the pilot of missing Malaysian plane HAD practiced flying plane to a remote island in Indian Ocean! he'd errased ot off his home simulator but they retrieved it somehow. now they think the whole thing was planned - by pilot, - they still no plane found.

just makes me think -- sometimes "crazy" suspicions ARE right. sometimes the mose sensible explanation is not the truth ,.

Anonymous said...

I think it sounds like a guy moved in and lived there. while tennant was out of town. and seeing as he's there criminally he wouldn't think to call manager when toilet clogs, and maybe had to leave in hurry so the toast was left. it all sounds like somebody living in the space but not conscientious. kinda squattery/ not destructive per say just lack of consideration.

Anonymous said...

but it's so wacky!!! no attempt to hide tracks.

Anonymous said...

in any event -- it sounds like a clue -- to much more going on, maybe somebody knows more than they can say and they can't let go? my guess is it's not the killer but it's somebody who knows or witnessed something and for some reason can't come forward and is kinda doing this is a irrepressable need to be brough in forquestioning.

ahaha. thats my guess. it's mysterious!

Anonymous said...

Oh, and that is crazy about the missing plane. I hadn't heard that but I always had an intuition that the plane might not have crashed. I wonder if it gives them better ideas on where to look now after they discovered that info?

Anonymous said...

they are now looking in a new "swath" of the ocean, etc

bold caps noted ;0

Anonymous said...

I was thinking that also.

Anonymous said...

Just read more clearly your idea about apt intruder. you may be right! Its more or less a prank. somebody doesntwant the apaetment occupied. trying to scare off accupant. such bizzare tactics. creative. almost POETIC i would wager to say.

Anonymous said...

The occupant is from jersey and is 21 my guess is he may be a friend of heathers former roommate who was also from jersey and similar .age. maybe came to take over lease from her. or maybe there are lots of jersey transplants there and its just incidental. i akso wonder if the person who did it was paid to just do "stuff" and those random things are what they came up with. so the note is not really about anybody. ...just somebodies idea of what to add to general creepyness.

Jen Ow said...

Sorry, I just have to ask, why do you assume the events alleged to have taken place at Heather Elvis' prior apartment have ANYTHING to do with Heather, or Terry Elvis?

The article doesn't suggest that the events are in any way tied to Heather, and to the contrary, the tenant/alleged victim appears to have identified the person that he believes to be the perpetrator...a person HE knows who lives in the apartment building related to the cup which was cited as evidence of the break in:

"In addition, the report said the victim found a note, written in Spanish, which translates to, “I love you very much.”

The victim provided information about a person the report called “Info 1 “ who speaks Spanish and lives in the Monarch Apartments."

It's an apartment building. The apartment Heather lived in, will likely be rented by 100+ different people in the future. The apartment may be known as a 'landmark' of the case, but people who are completely seperate from the case live there, and have events and situations that arise in THEIR lives, which are 100% unrelated to the previous tenants who occupied the apartment...be they infamous murder victims, or otherwise.

It's also possible that the report is false, and the tenant is just trying to capitalize on the cases publicity, or maybe wants a to break his lease and is trying to prove that the apartment is 'unsafe'. Whatever the reality, odds are it has ZERO to do with Heather, or her long suffering dad.


Anonymous said...

@ Jen Ow said...
why do you assume the events do NOT have ANYTHING to do with Heather, or Terry Elvis?
The article doesn't suggest that the events are in any way tied to Heather is NOT proof that they don't.
victim identified the person that he believes to be the perpetrator
Lives in the building and would have had access to the apartment when Heather was there.

Anonymous said...


Measuring Time and Form
terry elvis @ xojane
free editing
i do not know the speed of lines per hour, but the introduction is about 80%, the actual crime is one line, and then ending with 19% alibi building.