Thursday, June 19, 2014

Father Investigated for Neglect

Do you believe this father?

Did he really put them down for a nap, or did he let them stay asleep in the car?  Is this another case of neglect due to drugs?

Children and Drugs don't mix. 

Unfortunately, the news reporter did not use all quotes, but lots of interpretation.  We can only go by what the subject tells us.  His quotes are in Italics, with Statement Analysis added in bold type. 

SMITH COUNTY, TX (KLTV) -The father of the four-year-old girl who died after being found in a hot car is being investigated by the Department of Family and Protective Services, according to a DFPS spokesperson.

Four-year-old Bella Rose Lindstrom and her 3-year-old sister Zoey were found locked in their family's truck Wednesday afternoon in Smith County. Bella did not survive. Their father Russel Lindstrom was home watching them and says he thought the girls were taking a nap. 

We spoke to Lindstrom on Wednesday night after the incident. He decided to tell his story on camera Thursday morning, remembering and sharing about Bella and his surviving daughter, Zoey. 

Lindstrom said he was in charge of watching his two daughters. He put them down for a nap and started doing laundry. He says they were not in their room when he went back to check. He started looking for them and went outside. He found them locked in the family's truck, a 2003 Nissan Frontier.

Laundry, or washing, it noted, but it is not a quote here. There are some linguistic connections with "water" *(washing, etc) and sexual abuse, but it would be in the subject's language, and they do not give an exact quote here. 

Lindstrom said he was able to get into the truck with the keys. He said his fiance left the truck unlocked because they just cleaned it out and were about to trade it in this afternoon. He believed the girls went outside, got inside the truck, and accidentally locked it. He said they had locked themselves in a car before during the winter, so the couple is always careful to hide the keys from them.

"I got to the end of the trail on the other side of the house and I saw the truck and I had a bad feeling," says Lindstrom. Bella and Zoey were locked inside. He pulled them out and realized Bella was not breathing. 

We note that he includes emotions in the 'perfect' or logical part of the story.  The analyst should be aware that deceptive people often put their emotions into the story where they think they best belong.  In truthful accounts, emotions come after the main event of the account. 

He laid Zoey, who was responsive, on the cool concrete and then went back to his oldest, who was still unresponsive. He immediately started doing CPR on the child.

"I knew that if she had a chance at survival, then I needed to keep breathing for her," he said.

According to Lindstrom, Bella-Rose was extremely hot to the touch when he pulled her out, claiming he knew she was dead. Lindstrom said he served in the Army for seven and a half years as a first responder.

"In my head, I knew she was dead. I held my little girl dead in my arms. I've seen death before," Lindstrom says, "She was definitely my beautiful rose. She was very brave, courageous and loved to explore. I loved her to death."

He knew she was dead.  Note his words at the police station where he was upset over not being told if she was dead. 
"I loved her to death" is a frightening choice of words at this time. 

"I don't know if I just lost my daughter or my whole family," said Lindstrom. "I may never get to see them again."

He says police asked him to come to the police station for questioning. He says they interrogated him and would not confirm if his daughter was alive or dead. 

"They kept me detained at the Sheriff's Department for two or three hours interrogating me, treating me like I was some sort of common criminal," said Lindstrom.

Not just "criminal" but a "common criminal"

He told them he wanted to get a lawyer if they were going to continue the conversation. He said he saw the search warrant for his home and it said "manslaughter." 

Lindstrom said he had to wait until after the interrogation to go to the hospital and learn the fate of his daughter. 

"They couldn't have the common decency to tell me the truth at any point in this, even though I'm pretty sure they knew," said Lindstrom.

What "truth" is he referring to?  His daughter being dead:  he said he knew that already.  Was it the "truth" about being a suspect?

"It's bad enough losing a daughter, but its even worse not knowing whether or not you have or not, and having to go all that time wondering were they able to revive her? Were they able to save my little girl? Is she dead?" he added.

"losing a daughter" and not losing "my" daughter.  Why the distancing language?

As he told his story and rain began to pour down, he said he, "hopes this rain means it's the heavens crying over my daughter."

Lindstrom said authorities took all of his electronics and prescription medication. He says they also took a grinder, pipe and small amount of marijuana. He is angry because he told them he had several guns and other weapons and they did not take any of those. 

He told KLTV, "no wonder people in my position get suicidal".

The Department of Family and Protective Services is working with the sheriff's office on the investigation. Shari Pulliam with DFPS said that the department has no history with the family.

Pulliam said that authorities are investigating the father for “neglectful supervision,” and will be looking into who was supposed to be watching the children and how they ended up locked in a vehicle long enough for this to happen. She says they will also be looking at placement options for the other daughter, whether it’s with family or elsewhere. CPS is not seeking custody of her at this time. The girl was released from the hospital on Thursday and she and her mother will be staying with family during the course of the investigation.

Bella and Zoey's grandmother says Zoey is doing well. The family is coping with Bella's death and did not want to go on camera. 

Right now, authorities are in the early stages of their investigation, but they’ll compare their findings with law enforcement who will file charges if they see fit. The truck has been taken to the Smith County crime lab for processing.

Pulliam said the preliminary investigation indicates this is a heat-related death. Pulliam said that if the autopsy does show that Bella’s death is heat-related, this will be the second child in Texas who has died from heat-related death involving a vehicle in Texas this year.

Pulliam urged parents and caretakers to keep their vehicles locked when parked at home. 

"Children often enter these vehicles to play then cannot get out," said Pulliam. "Children should be properly supervised at all times knowing their whereabouts."

The sheriff's office said the criminal investigative division is studying the incident

38 comments:

john said...

VIDEOS: Father - 'This is one of the worst days of my life'

Snipped:

“This is one of the worst days of my life,” he said as tears ran down his face. “I want people to know this was not a case of bad parenting, but instead just a horrific event, and my baby is gone.”

Lindstrom said he had been out playing with Bella Rose and Zoey but decided to put them down for a nap shortly after 1 p.m.

“I thought they were asleep, so I began doing some laundry and other chores, and before I knew it, an hour had passed,” he said.

Lindstrom said a relative showed up at the home and asked where the girls were, and that is when he knew something was wrong.

“We couldn’t find them anywhere in the house, and we went outside and looked on a little trail into the woods behind the house where they had tried to go earlier in the day,” he said.

But as he walked by the family’s 2003 Nissan Frontier pickup, he saw the girls inside the vehicle.

Lindstrom said he got Bella out of the vehicle, but she was unresponsive. He said he tried splashing water from the pool in the front yard on her face, but there was still no reaction.

CPR also failed to yield a response.

“I am a combat veteran, and I’ve seen death, and when I looked at my daughter I knew ... crying, I knew,” he said.

Ms. Pulliam said the children’s family has no previous history with her agency, and the incident might be a tragic accident, but the parents could face charges, depending on the investigation’s outcome.

“Small children, when not properly supervised, can get into a lot of places, and one of those places is in a vehicle,” she said. “With the hot temperatures we have in Texas, that can be a potentially deadly place for them to be.”

Temperatures on Thursday afternoon reached 90 in the Tyler area.

Ms. Pulliam said the investigation was in its early stages.

“Cars are not babysitters, and children should never be left alone in or around an unlocked vehicle,” she said. “This could be a case where the children got into the vehicle themselves and then couldn’t get out, but we will still have to look at everything, including them being neglectful in their supervision of the children.”

The Smith County Sheriff’s Department late Thursday announced thata search warrant was executed at the residence.

The pickup was taken to the Smith County Sheriff’s Office Crime Lab for processing.

An autopsy was ordered on the 4-year-old.

The surviving 3-year-old was initially treated and released at the scene by EMS but later was taken to a local hospital for additional evaluation.

The sheriff’s office was working with CPS on the investigation.

Lindstrom said he has not been able to talk to his other daughter since the incident and has only spoken briefly with the children’s mother and his fianc←.

“This is a nightmare, and I’m under investigation, and I’m probably going to be charged with anything from neglect to involuntary manslaughter,” he said. “And so there’s a good chance I’m going to jail, and I may not see (Zoey) for a long time.”

http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-News+Local/201177/video-father-this-is-one-of-the-worst-days-of-my-life#.U6LBFZRdWWc

john said...

Peter, there is lots of information in the vt above. Whoever is recording it allows him to talk for almost six mins mostly in the FEP.

Jen Ow said...

There's a lot about this tragic story that I don't find credible.

1. My son turned 4 at the end of Jan. He has no problem opening our SUV/truck doors from the inside. He understands how the door locks work, and he has been strong enough for quite a while. I don't usually allow him to open the door for himself, and I actually have to engage the child locks on the rear doors to keep him from scrambling out of his carseat, and flinging open the door before I can get around to him.

2. Children of their age, (3 & 4 yo) are not quiet or discreet in their actions. I can't imagine one child this age 'sneaking' out of the house undetected, much less two. (Ask any Mom how much more rambunctious their kid is when other kids their age are around!)

3. The fact that Dad claims to have been doing laundry, and 'doing chores' means presumably he was in the house, cleaning up the kids mess, so how did he not notice the kids were gone? Did he not open the door once to put up a toy, or put up their clean clothes, etc?

4. That fact that he mentioned that prescription drugs were confiscated, along with marijuana paraphernalia is concerning. He also stated that he expects to be charged with a crime, and go to jail. Since he alleges that this was an accident, he must believe an intoxicant will be found in his system, leaving him open to charges ranging from neglect, to manslaughter.

All together it doesn't add up. Maybe the girls fell asleep in the car as he was driving home, and he left them sleeping in there while he went in the house to smoke up, or use whatever prescription drug he is so worried about LE confiscating...and he forgot about them?

Rose said...

I am calling bull on this one too. I have taken care of children that age on many occasions. First of all, even if they are taking a nap, you always pop your head into the room where they are sleeping from time to time. A kid that age can get up at any moment.

I am guessing this guy what a lot of junkie parents might do: the kids feel asleep in the car on the way home and so he left them locked in there so he could do drugs in peace for a while, and then, of course, he lost track of time.

Ugh we see this cases on this site all the time and it drives me nuts. Even parents on drugs should know that toddlers and preschoolers absolutely cannot be left unattended. You cannot go an entire hour without having laid your eyes on the kid at least a couple of times, even if they are sleeping.

Deejay said...

Most three year olds can tell you how they got into the car and if they had a nap.

Princess Buttercup said...

Saying "I want people to know this was not a case of bad parenting, but instead just a horrific event, and my baby is gone"

is not the same as denying he was neglectful. also I think there is a difference in definitions - in his mind, being a "bad parent" may have a different definition than being neglectful.

Also is it normal that he easily references "death" so much?

Princess Buttercup said...

Also there are red flags all over my mind with this phrase:

“I thought they were asleep, so I began doing some laundry and other chores, and before I knew it, an hour had passed,” he said.

Juliette said...

' Lindstrom said a relative showed up at the home and asked where the girls were, and that is when he knew something was wrong. '

This is oddly stated, that he knew something was wrong when someone asked where the girls were. He supposedly thought they were napping, what made him suddenly think something was wrong?

Anonymous said...

“This is one of the worst days of my life,” he said as tears ran down his face. “I want people to know this was not a case of bad parenting, but instead just a horrific event, and my baby is gone.”

One of the worst days? What other "worst day" of his life is comparable to his daughter baking to death in a hot car?

He wants people to know he's not a bad parent and that his daughter's death was just "a horrific event."

Seems like his little girl is pretty far down on the list of his priorities...

Peter Hyatt said...

I also cannot think of a day that is worst than the day of a daughter's death.

It may be that both kids fell asleep on the car ride home and he left them there.

The fact that drugs were in the house bother me a great deal.

Peter

Peter Hyatt said...

I also cannot think of a day that is worst than the day of a daughter's death.

It may be that both kids fell asleep on the car ride home and he left them there.

The fact that drugs were in the house bother me a great deal.

Peter

Anonymous said...

if he was a first responder you can get he's had some horrible days. he may have seen wide spread carnage before.

Terry elvis placed his emotions in just the right place recountng realizing Heather was missing. if you excuse him why not excuse this guy?


my guess is the girls fell asleep on a drive home and he left them in the car, thinking they were taking a nap. maybe he even meant to go back and get them after unloading the truck, or doing any little just got home thing, even smoking a bowl, andthen he just forgot. I suspect he left them in there but did not intend to kill them. but I don't see conclusive info here.

Anonymous said...

I think he had a bad feeling walking to the truck because he was realizing he left them in there at that moment

john said...

The Temoral lacunae, and the laundry referance concern me.

Jen Ow said...

I agree Deejay. The surviving child should be able to tell what happened.

I haven't seen anything published about the layout of the home, or how far away the truck was located, but Dad's story doesn't ring true to me for the reasons I already listed.

In addition:

-His perfectly placed emotions, and telling of what he was 'thinking' during the event, including when he was doing CPR on his lifeless child.

- His statement that his guests mention of the kids was when he realized something was wrong fits more with him 'forgetting' about them, than his story. Otherwise, why wouldn't his first thought be that they were still napping?

- He states that losing his daughter was 'bad enough', but the feeling of not knowing if he had or not, was WORSE.

- He comments that he was treated like a 'common criminal', and on the 'common decency' that he feels he wasn't shown by LE.

-Although he states that he saw the charge of 'manslaughter' listed on the search warrant docs, and in the video clip he goes on about how he knew she was dead, he's a combat vet (mentioned to garner respect for his service) who has seen death before, and that he held his daughter dead in his arms...he claims he didn't know she was gone until he arrived at the hospital after being 'detained' by LE.

- He tries to demonize LE, stating that they took his 'prescription meds', and his pot, (shades of Billed Dunn) but left his weapons. Then says he understands why 'people' get suicidal, but doesn't say HE is suicidal.

-His overall objective seems to be to elicit sympathy for himself, how he was treated, and the likely consequences he faces. I would expect his focus to be on his daughter's death, and for his grief and guilt to overwhelm all other thoughts.

- He defensively introduces the topic of 'bad parenting', stating in the negative that it 'wasn't a case of bad parenting'.

(I disagree, even if the tragedy happened exactly as he described, he was neglectful to allow enough time for this to happen without laying eyes on his young children.)

Jen Ow said...

"She was very brave, courageous and loved to explore."

-slight blaming of the victim



john said...


“I THOUGHT they were asleep, SO i BEGAN doing some LAUNDRY and OTHER chores, AND BEFORE I KNEW IT, AN HOUR HAD PASSED,” he said.


Just this sentence, for me, is loaded with SA red flags.

Anonymous said...

his refference to being throught of as a "common criminal" does makes me wonder if he would object less to being simply called a criminal. or an uncommon criminal.

but if you work backwards in the time line with the presumption it was an accident -- at some point he had to have decided to leave them in there.

if they truly crawled in on their own his language doesn't make sense.

but in accident scenerio where he leaves them in there just for a moment and forgets… that's really hard to do, I'd think. might he have been willfully leaving them in there?

Anonymous said...

It's strange that he would choose to murder his daughter in a car that he planned to trade in later that day. That' car then becomes a crime scene. Thats a direct financial blow to him. Unless foiling the plan to trade in his car was somehow part of his diabolical motovation I'd find it more as evidence of his innocense.

Anonymous said...

if he's need extensively interrogated then whatever hes saying at this point is not his instinctual fresh words -- they are words structured in response to the assumptions made clear to him by the police.

trustmeigetit said...





I have a 6 year old. There was never a time my son left my home with out me knowing.

My friend has 2 kids. Her youngest often would walk out of the house, so she had a bell installed along with a high lock.

To me, I don’t think its common for kids to just walk out of the home alone. Much less go to the family car and crawl in.

If its normal for them, then you put in place extra safety measures.

I think if the kids did this often, he would have said that. He didn’t.

I think he either put them in there to get some quiet time. Or he forgot them.

To me, when I think about how miserable it is just getting into a hot car waiting for the AC to cool it down… It is a horror to imagine what those poor children went through.

I note however, as I typed the horrible thoughts of the poor children, he did not express any concern or horror over what they went through. What he is feeling now that he is facing blame. But not about the pain and suffering they expereinced.

As a normal loving parent, that would haunt me more than criminal charges.

Anonymous said...

My gut feeling is that the kids actually went into the car to hide from him.
Analysis of his statements indicate a deeply self-centered individual. You can see he continually refers everything back to himself and put things in terms of how things affect him. This is an individual who would not have much patience for kids.
It makes little sense that he intentionally or accidentally left the kids in the car. He claims he put them down for a nap, and I believe this. However, I have a feeling he was being abusive towards them, maybe screaming at them because they didn't want to take a nap and the kids may have snuck out of the house and gone into the car to hide from him, perhaps they even locked the car to lock the Dad out in case he came, not realizing how hot the car would get.
This is a gut feeling I got after reading his first sentence about how he put them down for a nap. Something tells me he behaved in a frightening way to them perhaps because they were frustrating his efforts to get them to nap.

Anonymous said...

"I got to the end of the trail on the other side of the house and I saw the truck and I had a bad feeling," says Lindstrom. Bella and Zoey were locked inside. He pulled them out and realized Bella was not breathing.

Is the car at the end of a trail?
Why would the kids have left the house and walked down a trail unless they were trying to hide from the father?

Bayou belle said...

His priorities are quite obvious ..,so glad he got his laundry done (secret code for smoking a bowl) and had a nap while he's beautiful children were dying outside in the car. I would be willing to bet he was inside on the air conditioning.

Anonymous said...

"treating me like I was some sort of common criminal,"

Notice the father is not upset at being treated like a "criminal", rather he does not like being treated like a "common criminal".

Anonymous said...

2 weird clues about this situation are that the father states the kids had done this before.

This brings to mind neglect, drug abuse.

2nd clue According to the Dad the car was left unlocked by his fiance because they had cleaned out car and were going to trade it in later that day.

The explanation for the car being left unlocked does not make sense because cleaning out a car and planning to trade it in later does not lead a person to then leave their car unlocked. Obviously too, there is the strange timing that the kids would have been in the car, one of them dying right before the car is traded in.

Something is very off about the guy's story, and I disagree with those who think that the Dad left the kids in the car to go smoke a bowl.
It sounds to me like one of 2 things happened
1) As horrible as this sounds, the father may have left or put the kids into the car intentionally, to actually turn the car into a crime scene so the fiance could not trade the car in. Was this the car driven by the father and could he have been mad because he did not agree with trading in the car?

Anonymous said...

It doesn't take long at all for this to happen. Car temps soar quickly and little kids' body temps go up high quickly. At 107, the organs start shutting down. Since one girl was alive, they probably weren't in the car that long.

My heart goes out to this dad and his wife and surviving daughter.

Hobnob said...

Lindstrom said a relative showed up at the home and asked where the girls were, and that is when he knew something was wrong
This doesn't make sense.
Why would someone ask him where the girls were and he knew something was wrong straightaway?
he told us he had put them down for a nap, they should have been in their bedroom.
All he had to say was they are having a nap in their room, they've been napping about an hour.
He jumps immediately to the knowing something was wrong for no discernible reason.
He should have suspected something was wrong after he had gone to their room to check them and they weren't there, NOT BEFORE

“I THOUGHT they were asleep, SO i BEGAN doing some LAUNDRY and OTHER chores, AND BEFORE I KNEW IT, AN HOUR HAD PASSED,” he said.

He only thought they were asleep leaving it open for others to think otherwise.
He doesn't tell us they were asleep and if he can't say it i can't say it for him.

So is used to explain why something was done.

Here he tells us he began to do some laundry and other chores, he doesn't tell us he did them or completed them, only that he began.
What were the other chores he began to do since he has already mentioned laundry as a specific.

We then have a tempral lacuan which is missing time.

He doesn't tell us he did chores etc in that hour so i can't assume.
I would ask specifically what other chores he did during that time.
The fact he specifies he did some laundry makes me wonder what he laundered and why given the fact one child is dead and the other one nearly died.
being the suspicious hobs that i are, i would be wondering if laundering was a way to clean up possible evidence.

"I got to the end of the trail on the other side of the house and I saw the truck and I had a bad feeling," says Lindstrom. Bella and Zoey were locked inside. He pulled them out and realized Bella was not breathing.
Oh dear, the pefect emotion in the perfect spot, never a good sign.
Why would he have a bad feeling on seeing his truck?
The girls could have been anywhere.
In the house hiding, with the neighbors, in the yard why does he only get a bad feeling when he saw the truck?

How did he not see them or hear them ?
Where did he put them down for a nap?

How did they get into the truck and how did they lock it?

Why would they lock it?

He said his fiance left the truck unlocked because they just cleaned it out and were about to trade it in this afternoon. He believed the girls went outside, got inside the truck, and accidentally locked it. He said they had locked themselves in a car before during the winter, so the couple is always careful to hide the keys from them.
Why would he leave a car unlocked?
It is irrelevant that it was left unlocked because it had just been cleaned and they were trading it in that afternoon.
All the more reason to keep it locked.
He introduces the claim they locked themselves in the car during the winter so they were careful to hide the keys from them.
if the car was unlocked why would the keys be necessary or even worth mentioning.
Methinks this is sensitive as he goes into great detail about locking themselves in the car.

“I want people to know this was not a case of bad parenting, but instead just a horrific event, and my baby is gone.”
Anything in the negative is sensitive, i wonder if he has been accused of bad parenting before so he feels the need to introduce it to his statement.
He tells us it was just a horrific event.
Just is used to minimise downwards. he then tells us it was an event not an accident.
What are his definitions of an accident and an event?
How do they differ?
When do they differ?

Hobnob said...

He tells us he was a first responder, yet the first thing he does is splash water on her face.
Innocent parents refuse to accept their child is dead, even when it is obvious, it is normal and expected parental instinct.
He tells us he knew she was dead and then tells us in the police station he didn't know if she was alive or dead contradicting his earlier statement of knowing.

I loved her to death."
is this a leaked marble?
An embedded confession?

If he was innocent and it was an accident then he wouldn't be so accepting of facing charges accepting he could be going to jail for a long time.
he sounds almost resigned to the fact this is what will happen which is unexpected.

Is there something in the autopsy which could be incriminating and he knows it?

Drugs and weapons and children make for a bad combination, an accident waiting to happen.

Anonymous said...


Hob, I think he explains that not knowing if she was dead or alive when he talks about not knowing if they were able to revive her.

Anonymous said...

It seems like it would be difficult for children, 3 or 4, to close the car door once inside. Hopefully they checked the car-seats for a death scent. If they were strapped in then they may not have been able to free themselves to open the door. A sad situation regardless.

Anonymous said...

I believe this story is more nefarious than the guy being passed out on heroine or pot or whatever after leaving kids in the car to do drugs.

The guy's reaction upon finding the one child looking as if she was dead and how he is used to seeing death and so knew she was dead is not a good sign. In my opinion this is a leaked marble that he may be insensitive to death perhaps as a result of being a sociopath?

Him saying the car was left unlocked as a result of cleaning it does not make sense but it is a leaked marble. In my opinion, it indicates that the father had something to do with them being, I would say, intentionally left or put into the car.
His using this excuse that the car was unlocked blah blah blah seems to be a cover story.
It is an "alibi" story if you will.
If you look at what he is saying, he is trying to shift blame onto the kids for being in the car in the first place. He is saying they are usually careful to hide the keys, however on that one day, they were not careful because the car had been cleaned.
Is it a coincidence that the one day the car was left unlocked the kids allegedly decided to go into the car? Doubtful. It seems more like it is a cover story.
I doubt this was a case of neglect. It seems more like a case that he intentionally harmed the children.

Anonymous said...

anon 6:47 , i like your theory. sounds like a good fit.

Anonymous said...

cleaining car. doing laundry.

cleaning accounts coiciding with death, hmm.

why would he want to murder his daughters in the truck they were about to trade in??

Those are TWO things, death of daughters and financial loss, you'd think he'd strongly want to avoid.

Peter Hyatt said...

I have wondered when someone would weigh in on "laundry"

Anonymous said...

And before I knew it....missing time

Anonymous said...

Laundry...other chores...splashing water on her. Hiding keys?

sha said...

I understand this guy wanting to say everything he can think of about himself to get people to think ANY good thoughts they could of him (hey I'm a vet, I was in combat, etc.) and I understand why he was so adamant about explaining he was listening for them, thought they'd gone to sleep, was busy doing chores.....
In reality it doesn't matter if you were doing chores, saving orphans, napping with the kids, or just screwing off watching soaps and having a beer...the end result is the same and it sucks.
The thing that bothered me was he does a lot of crying behaviors, such as the sobbing, the sobby-breathing, the whine in the voice, but through the entire thing I only saw ONE tear,....ONE....and it was only wet enough to get half way down his cheek, where he left it. Usually when people are crying they wipe their face, but this guy had such a time sqeeezing off one tear he left it there.
I can imagine he's hurting, and also scared to death about what's going to become of him now (and his family), and maybe being through so much combat his emotions are strange to people that haven't been thorugh such things....but it also bothers me he only calls them "his daughter" identified by "older" and "younger". No names, no "my babies", and what about the survivor??