Saturday, March 23, 2013

Statement Analysis: Billie Dunn's Most Critical Words

                                               What happens when a liar tells the truth?

   92% of readers believe that the remains found in Scurry County are Haileys.
 
 When the known liar tells the truth, and it is not believed, the anger within the reaction is often disproportionate to the topic at hand.  

This is simply because the liar, having been caught on "a" as well as on "b", finally reports something truthful ("c") and is now filled with a pseudo form of "righteous indignation" and will often go to great lengths to verify the truthful statement, replete with sensitivity indicators and emphasis.



Q.  Why such an over reaction?

A.  The liar feels the sting of being caught and even though truthful sentence, "c" does not negate the lies told in "a" and "b", the liar feels that the mantle of "liar" is now overthrown, completely, and exhaustively "proves" the subject to be a truthful person.

The anger also shows the rage of insult over having been previously undraped.  It is so that the topic ("c") being truthful, will now make others "pay" for the embarrassment of having been caught on "a" and upon "b", with a desire to have "all forgotten now", and new status of "truthful" granted.

Here is the exchange between Billie Dunn and Nancy Grace, who has grown frustrated with the deceptive responses and does not believe Dunn any longer:
GRACE: Well, I don`t know what to believe, either, because I`m getting all these different stories about you having a New Year`s Eve party, and you`re high when you go take the polygraph. Let me ask you this. Let`s get back to the facts. When was the last time you absolutely are positive you saw Hailey?

Note that Nancy Grace frames the words "you having a New Year's Eve party" within her sentence recognizing that the gathering, the serving of alcohol, and the watching of the ball drop define a party, even if Dunn wishes to deny. She moves past this, but then asks the simple question about the last time Dunn saw Hailey. 

BILLIE DUNN: I saw her Sunday night.

Dunn did not address the accusations of telling different stories, having a party, and being high for the polygraph. Billie Dunn does not refute it and Nancy Grace knows this. 

"I saw her Sunday night" is a very strong statement.  This is likely true.  She saw her Sunday night.  What did she see?  Was it an alive Hailey?  Was it a dead Hailey?  

This answer, "I saw her Sunday night" should be considered a very important sentence from Billie Dunn.

Objection:  It is without sensitivity indicators.  Why do you call it "very important"?

Answer:     Billie Dunn has given us lots of statements and even against the objection of her attorney, continues to.  Billie Dunn's method of deception is to add many words to her answers, and to go beyond the boundary of the question. 
It may be that when she gives a short answer, we should pay even closer attention to the fact that it is not the norm for her, but a break in her pattern.  This is a critical part of her story.  We now get to the point of the most chilling words as Billie Jean Dunn reaches into her memory to choose words, yet it is the addition of one single word which tells us the worst possible news.  

GRACE: What time, 10:00 PM?

Mistake.  She should ask "what time?" without giving the subject the answer. 

BILLIE DUNN: Probably around 10:00.

Two qualifiers for 10:00, "probably" and "around" making it a weak assertion.  

GRACE: Now, was that when you looked in her room and it is was dark and you thought she was lying in her bed?

Please note that when this statement is viewed in light of all the other statements made to this point, the analyst is confronted with something possibly horrific.  

What is Billie Dunn describing? 

 Use the standard principles of analysis including body posture, reporting what did not happen, was not thought, and the standard sensitivity principle.

Here we have the critical "cluster of blues" that can solve a case.  Here Billie Dunn is inviting us  in to see what she saw, with her own eyes:   

BILLIE DUNN:   "I did see her in her room, but I saw her watching TV. 

Monday morning, I looked in her room and it was dark and it looked like she was laying in bed. But I didn`t go touch her, make sure that was her. I just peeked in to make sure she was in bed to ease my mind and..."

1.  "I did see her in her room, but..."  The word but can refute, negate, or minimize what preceded it.  What has caused her to make comparison by putting a pause in her sentence and insert, in less than a micro-second, the word "but"? This is allegedly Sunday night.  

2.  We have since learned that pornography made by Billie Dunn, was stored on the children's X- box.  

3.  The subject feels it is important enough to add in "TV"

4.  The need to explain why:  

In the SCAN technique from LSI, we give "so, since, to, therefore, because" the color coding blue as the highest level of sensitivity that can be found in a statement of someone reported what happened.  It is here that the person has a need to tell us "why" something was done.  This is often the solving of a case.  A single "blue" is a strong sensitivity indicator but two or more "blues" is called a "cluster of blues" in which the information contained with the cluster is the most critical information of a case.  Just as we highlight "left" in blue, we highlight "because" in any form that seeks to explain why something was done.  

If a question is "what did you do?" and it is answered with an explanation "why", it is critical.  

Here we have three blues in one short statement and come to the most important part of everything she had told us.

We are at the most critical point of what happened to Hailey, as described by her mother.   

Note that she doesn't tell us that Hailey was laying in bed, but rather says it looked like she was laying in bed.   This is how she appeared to her mother.   

Most might say "she was laying in bed" but she said it only "looked like she was laying in bed"; as if she is viewing a corpse, who looks peaceful, like as if she is sleeping.  She could not bring herself to say she was laying in bed because Hailey was deceased and her corpse looked "like" rather than "was laying" in bed.  

This one small word, "like", means to compare, is critical and it is why attorneys do not let guilty clients speak out on television. 

She was viewing a corpse.  What do most people NOT do to a corpse?  She is consistent here:
Next Billie states what she didn't do, touch her.  

That which is reported in the negative is important.  

Billie didn't touch what looked like it was sleeping in the bed.  
Ask yourself in what circumstance you would touch something to make sure what it was. 

 Would you touch your child to make sure it was him or her in bed?

Hailey is dead and Billie Dunn cannot bring herself to enter the room and touch her.  

She cannot do it.  

Most people do not like touching a dead body.  Dead bodies can look "like" they are sleeping but people do not like to touch them.  Even a dead dog in the street:  people often poke it with a stick, rather than directly touch it. 

Billie Dunn is speaking to you.  

She is taking you, the listener, in with her, back to the next morning that, whatever happened the night before, Hailey did not wake up and now is there, as if she was "like" laying in bed but she was not asleep.  

For her, the body looked "like" it was asleep. 
Now note that Billie "peeked in" to make sure she was in bed to ease her mind.  I believe this is true. 

 Why did Billie need to ease her mind?  There was no report of a missing child.  There was nothing that we know of, according to her story, that would cause her a need for comfort. 

Something had happened to Hailey that Billie needed comfort and something to ease her mind.  

There had been drugs the night before, we know that.  She even stopped off, like a dutiful daughter, to ask her own mother if she needed drugs and then used the ATM to empty her account to buy drugs.  This is something Nancy Grace would soon learn, too. 

Hailey did not go to her bed, peacefully, the night before.  If that was the case, there would be no reason to "ease" her mother's mind. By this time, the mother was in need of comfort and
reassurance. 

 There is nothing to soothe or calm, just a sleeping teenager.   

 What about Hailey being in bed caused Billie's mind to need to be put at ease? 

 This is what it means to let Billie Dunn guide you with her words.  These may be the most important words in the case.  

She said that she needed her mind to be put at ease, even though she claimed to last see Hailey, in her own home, at 10PM the night before, watching TV.   

No problem reported. 

In order to have your mind eased, your mind must be at unease. 

Something must happen to put your mind at unease. 

Hailey was watching TV at 10PM the night before. 

Between 10PM that night, and 6AM the following morning, something upset the mind of Billie Dunn, in which she needed to have her mind eased.

  Her choice of words are odd if you think nothing happened, but are perfectly fitting if you believe she and Shawn killed Hailey.

Here Billie Dunn has given herself away, in her attempt to use a multitude of words to make her sound innocent.  SCAN's "Cluster of Blues" is the most critical point of her statement. 

I believe that the only thing that could ease her troubled mind would be Shawn ridding them of the evidence. 

49 comments:

john said...

Billie Dunn's method of deception is to add many words to her answers, and to go beyond the boundary of the question.
It may be that when she gives a short answer, we should pay even closer attention to the fact that it is not the norm for her, but a break in her pattern.

I have never noticed that before Peter,it's like a change of baseline from he norm..

Another great tip in S/A..

Nic said...

I remember when Hailey's case first hit the news and all of us discussing this interview with NG. I couldn't wrap my head around why BJD wouldn't go into the bedroom and turn off the TV (at 6:00am?) and just make sure Hailey was comfortable/etc. Or that she wouldn't "touch" her. It took me a long time to realize that what she was doing was "paying her respects" before heading out for work that morning and (I believe) easing her mind by telling herself that she was safe with God.

You always knew that, Peter, (from the beginning you posted when you thought Hailey had died,) and you watched us mull over that information time and time again until, finally, we saw what you did.

You have always tried to teach us to ask "why", by generously sharing your analysis with us and it was never more valuable a lesson than this one because you watched/read and waited for us to apply the principle ourselves.

Thanks again for providing us with a great learning venue. It's a generous gift.

Mainah said...


If I took the time to check on my sleeping teenager in order to ease my mind, I would know if she were in her bed and would be able to say so boldly and not need to weaken it with I didn't "touch" her.

I don't think Hailey was there in the am when she peeked to ease her mind.

Red Ryder said...

I agree that Hailey was dead when BD looked in on her. It is appalling to me as a human and even more as a mother when I read/hear of parents killing their kids....but Hailey, her death was so awful. I cried when I read your post and I'm crying now, such evil people are capable of! (I believe every human being has the capacity for great good or great ill, we do have a choice though. There but for the grace of God go I.).i am confused about the "ease my mind" thing. She said she peeked in on Hailey "to ease her mind" and Peter said only SA getting rid of the evidence (body) would ease her mind. Was she checking to make sure Hailey was really dead (so she couldn't tell what they had done to her))? Was she making sure no one else (David?) had found dead Hailey before SA could dispose of her remains?

Red Ryder said...

I wonder what BJD's demeanor at work that day was? Was she bright and animated with carry over excitement? Or was she quiet , flattened out by the drugs and events from the night before, kind of deflated? Maybe she took a Valium to steady herself?
I don't recall reading anything about her day at work other than the phone calls and leaving to report Hailey "missing".

Baxtie said...

OT:

Arrests made in the case of the baby who was murdered in the stroller:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Georgia+teens+arrested+after+baby+killed+wounded/8143508/story.html

Randie said...

"I see people in the stores all the time, moms and daughters and the daughter's throwing a fit because she's not getting exactly what she wants. That should be me and my daughter fighting over shoes, buying her a new car and taking her to concerts," Dunn said.
-----------------

First of all: what a deranged thing to miss about your daughter "fighting"...

Second: This is the second time Billie has broght up the words: "getting exactly what she wants". The last ime Billie broght this up is when she was trying to convince us they had such a nice and wonderful Christmas..."and and everybody got exactly what they all wanted."

This doesn't bode well with me...I just can't put my finger on it.
---------------------

"We have no contact whatsoever and haven't in a long time. And I don't want any contact with him. When I finally did get him to move out, he harassed me badly. After seeing the way he reacted when we broke up, I think back to what local law enforcement had told me and been trying to tell me and I just thought it wasn't true," Dunn said.

Dunn says any allegations that she knew what happened to her daughter are absolutely false.

"I really don't like hate, because that's such a strong word. But I hate the guy and people are still saying maybe he did something and I know about it. I think it's ridiculous. I've got such bigger things going on worrying about my daughter," Dunn said.
-----------------------

Framed words: "he did something and I know about it"...

Also the "bigger things going on" are her arrest and trial...she should be worring.

Juliette said...

From Baxtie's link at 12:19 PM, this quote from the mom of Antonio:

Police announced the arrest Friday afternoon after combing school records and canvassing neighbourhoods searching for the pair. The chief said the motive of the "horrendous act" was still under investigation and the weapon had not been found.

"I feel glad that justice will be served," West said. "It's not something I'm going to live with very well. I'm just glad they caught him."

The mother says she's *not going to live with this VERY well*? She's *JUST GLAD they caught him*?

Odd use of words.

Juliette said...

I'm sorry I posted OT and forgot to write it on my comment, I have reposted in the proper topic.

Bonnie Blue said...

I am confused about one part, why would looking in at your dead daughter's body "ease" your mind?

I think I am missing something here.
I agree she was murdered Sunday night/Monday morning. I know Hailey was playing Xbox, and then watching the TV (possibly the porn that she just discovered on the Xbox?) I can think of many scenarios.

Hailey has now departed, and her Mom knows it. So how would it ease her mind, Peter, to look in one last time at a corpse?

BostonLady said...

Hi Peter.. Just one correction to your analysis. You said:

There had been drugs the night before, we know that. She even stopped off, like a dutiful daughter, to ask her own mother if she needed drugs and then used the ATM to empty her account to buy drugs. This is something Nancy Grace would soon learn, too.

Monday morning was when Billie made the statement about seeing Hailey in her bed. It was Monday night that she and Shawn emptied her account at the ATM to buy drugs and stop by to see her mother. Who I believe supplied Billie with the drugs. It is rumored on Sunday night that her brother and a friend stopped by and, knowing what we now know, partied.

I remember when you first wrote your analysis of Billie's statements about seeing Hailey in the bed, but not touching her, and you stated Hailey was dead. I hadn't followed s.a. until this case and I was amazed that you could determine this. Now, after reading here for 2 years, I see it clearly. I always thought her words were odd. But it also made me think about when my children were babies and I would need to "ease my mind" before going to bed. I would go into their room to make sure they were covered with their blanket as babies do wiggle around. But more than that, I wanted to make sure they were okay before I could sleep. I would sometimes get very close to make sure they were breathing. Crazy? I don't think so. I was such a worrier that I needed to make sure they were okay before I could sleep. So, the reason I bring this up is I think when Billie said "to ease my mind" although odd in that context before leaving for work with a teen, it did tap into my actions when my children were babies. And I notice this can interfere with s.a. because I was rationalizing in my mind that it wasn't "off" because I did it with my babies. I hope that makes sense.

I agree that something happened to Hailey between 10pm and 6am. Her brother, David, left the home at 9pm on Sunday to go stay with a friend. Hailey was alone with her mother, Shawn, her uncle and his friend. Supposedly the uncle and friend have passed their poly's. Shawn and Billie have not. Also what has since come out is that on Sunday, Shawn was sending pictures of his naked "junk" to Billie's aunt Cindy. Cindy has stated she gave the pics to police. I think this is what caused an argument Sunday night. Cindy states she texted Hailey to ask her if the phone number she was getting the pics sent from, was Shawns. Hailey confirmed it was. Cindy then asked Hailey to have Billie call her when she got home. (not sure where Billie was because supposedly she was enjoying a "normal" relaxing day at home) Cindy recognized Billie's bathroom in the background of the pics Shawn was sending. Hailey was involved only that she told Cindy it was Shawn's number but that may have set Billie off. Billie had not been speaking to Cindy so something is not right there. And even though LE told Billie about the pictures, early on in the investigation, she didn't believe it... so she said.

I'm very glad I found your blog as I've learned so much in the past two years. I pick up on words now that I never would have paid attention to before.

I pray that justice is served quickly to Billie and Shawn. This has gone on long enough.

BostonLady said...

Red Ryder said...

I wonder what BJD's demeanor at work that day was? Was she bright and animated with carry over excitement? Or was she quiet , flattened out by the drugs and events from the night before, kind of deflated? Maybe she took a Valium to steady herself?
I don't recall reading anything about her day at work other than the phone calls and leaving to report Hailey "missing".

March 23, 2013 at 11:38 AM

**********************

I have wondered the same thing Red Ryder. I'm guessing LE has interviewed her co-workers. We do know that Billie left work early that day because she stated there was a dept meeting that day and her relief came in early for that so Billie was able to leave earlier than her normal time. That is when she and Shawn went to the ATM, her mothers. That was Monday.

The next day she also left early. This is the day she called home to David at noon to tell him to text Hailey and have her get home from her supposed sleepover at her friends. So Billie was probably agitated that morning and couldn't wait to get out of work.

Red Ryder said...

Randie~great work picking up the embedded words of Billie's, more confirmation of what is already apparent in this case.
Boston Lady, thanks for sharing that about BJD's aunt Cindy and the cell phone pics, I haven't heard that before. What was SA up to with that? Looking for some side action?
Did he think BJD wouldn't find out? Did this factor in in Hailey's demise?

Light the Way said...

I don't know if this falls within the boundaries of proper SA, but two things jumped to mind when reading this statement of BJD's:

1.) BJD was sure to place HAILEY as last seen near or using that particular TV/XBOX. Almost as if subtley trying to blame HER as complicit in whatever child-porn would be found there.
It strikes me as possibly some version of blame shifting akin to: "Well don't look at ME [so and so] was the LAST person to touch [whatever is now broken/missing/etc.]"

2.) "I didn't touch her"
Could BJD perhaps be trying to convince herself that because she only "watched" SA abuse Hailey, that she isn't "as responsible" for Hailey's death.

Fern said...

This is sort of an odd observation/question.

If the remains are determined to be Hailey's, how will that help identify the perp? The remains have been reported to be so decomposed that age and gender cannot be determined. I highly doubt a cause of death can be determined under such circumstances.

I guess my question is this: assuming they're guilty, why would either Billie or Shawn be "nervous" that its Hailey? Why the need to prepare to "throw each other under the bus" if no cause of death can be cited.

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, and I apologize if this is a repeat from previous discussions. I'm rather new to this SA stuff.

Anonymous said...

Fern, I think having a body prevents the defense from suggesting that she is a runaway, or being held against her will somewhere. Also the placement of the body along with Adkins movements and cell pings that day would help prosecution.

BostonLady said...

LE collected a lot of evidence in the first days that hailey went missing. That evidence has not been shared with the public. If the remains are Hailey's,FBI/LE may have the last piece to make an arrest. Also,based on Billie already pushing Shawn under the bus, it might not take much for LE/FBI to get confessions. I think it will be who can make a deal first.

Shawn has been very quiet since the remains were found. Last year, his lawyer made a statement when the other body was found. As did Billie's lawyer. This time, it's very different, which makes me think these are Hailey's remains.

Anonymous said...

What is it with finding bodies in Texas in the middle of March? Two years in a row now.

Are people looking because of Hailey or was this by accident?

Red Ryder said...

If this is Hailey found at last it will prove she did not run away, was found in Scurry County exactly where Shawn told police they would find her, and along the route Shawn likely travelled that day. Partial skeletal remains may yield some information, it depends on which bones are found and what injuries the person sufferered or they may indicate dismemberment as in Zahra Baker's death. THAT would sure rile people up and make them look to Shawn after some of the comments he has made and his and BJD's "hobby" of "looking" at images of familial killings.

Fern said...

Thank you all for your responses. I have a clearer picture now.

Anonymous said...

Finding her remains does NOT prove she did not run away

Finding her remains ONLY proves she was illegally disposed of, and illegally disposed of in a way that strongly indicates homicide

She could very well have run away and was murdered as a runaway, or she could very well have been kidnapped as she was walking around outside, then murdered

I'm not saying that is what happened, what I am saying is that her finding remains does not equate to proving she was murdered in her bed by Shawn/Billie and disposed of by Shawn

Finding her remains STRICTLY PROVES her remains were illegally disposed of AND illegally disposed of in a way that strongly proves homicide

I have no doubt she was murdered at home by SA+BJD and disposed of by SA with help from BJD but finding her remains does NOT prove that

OTHER evidence proves Hailey did not run away - she left vital clothing and other essentials behind.


Her remains only prove foul play, not where the foul play occurred

It IS in the realm of possibility that she was murdered after having run away or murdered after being kidnapped while she was walking around outside

Layla said...

I have not followed this case as closely as you all bc it happened before I started reading this site. I have read only what has been put up after I came here. So, please forgive me if my comments come from ignorance. These are my thoughts: It seems Sean Adkins and Billie Dunn have GUILTY written all over them. What I mean is it's too blaring. It's too obvious. Right down to this more recent picture of Billie pretending to enjoy being manhandled by this gory zombie man. These people are messed up people into deviant perverted things and these are the "type" that would harm Hailey. This is what gives me pause whenever I read about the case. There is something to be said for oftentimes it is the person you least expect, and that saying doesnt fit with this case it seems. Not sure what to make of that.

Hobnob said...

off topic


Amanda Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are anxiously waiting to find out if their acquittal for the murder of a British student will be overturned by Italy's highest court.
Supreme Court judges will rule on Monday on whether there should be a retrial regarding the death of Meredith Kercher or if the case against them should be closed completely.
In 2011 Knox and Sollecito were cleared of the 2007 murder on appeal after they had initially been found guilty and sentenced to 26 and 25 years respectively.


Meredith, 21, was found semi naked and with her throat cut in her bedroom in the house she shared with American Knox in the picturesque Italian hill top town of Perugia.
The case made headlines around the world amid allegations of sex games, drugs and jealousy during their first trial in 2009.

Knox and Sollecito were found guilty but were cleared two years later after a fresh hearing uncovered a bungled police investigation

Defence lawyers and experts revealed how evidence had been contaminated or poorly handled by forensic teams and that the conviction should be considered unsafe.
They were immediately freed with Knox returning to her home in Seattle while Sollecito went back to Bisceglie on the southern Italian coast near Bari.
Prosecutors in Perugia appealed the decision on behalf of Miss Kercher's family and will find out on Monday if they have been successful.

They want the acquittal to be quashed and for a new trial to be held in neighbouring Tuscany.
Neither are expected to attend the hearing which will be held behind closed doors in Rome.

The case will decided purely on paperwork and legal documents with no new witnesses giving evidence.
Luciano Ghirga, Knox's lawyer, said: 'She is very anxious about the hearing but she is waiting for it knowing full well that the outcome is very important.'
Since returning to Seattle in the United States, Knox has kept a low profile although she is due to given an interview to ABC television on April 30 to coincide with the release of a book about her four years in an Italian jail.

Sollecito has also written a book and has already given an interview on Italian TV about the case where he said he and Knox were no longer lovers but they were still in touch - he visited her earlier this year and they speak on Skype regularly.
He is now studying in Verona and they have always insisted they are innocent of Leeds University student Meredith's murder - she had only been in Italy for two months before she was killed having arrived from Coulsdon for a year long course as part of her degree.
Last night his father Francesco said: 'He is working hard on his studies. He's working on a project involving the movement of surgical instruments during operations. He is calm and serene even if we are all in a state of apprehension.'
During the investigation and trial much was made of Knox's character with prosecutors saying she was highly sexual and had manipulated Sollecito but her lawyers dismissed the theory.
Rudy Guede is serving 16 years for the murder having initially being sentenced to 30 but this was later reduced on appeal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2297972/Amanda-Knox-boyfriend-Monday-face-retrial-murder-Meredith-Kercher.html

Anonymous said...

BJD's "to ease my mind". She wanted to make sure Hailey was really dead? She didn't touch her.
Perhaps what caused Hailey's death was evident from the appearance of the body without BJD having to "touch" her.

chris said...

We don't know all the evidence that was found at the scene. They could have found other things that could be traced to sa and bj all we know is that they found some bones.

justice for Hailey

Anonymous said...

perhaps it was the fact that hailey's body was still in her room & not unaccounted for --- so there was still controll over the situation -- still the chance to hide the body and not get caught --- that eased the mother's worried mind.

Jo said...

I think Billie said "ease my mind" because it was just the opposite, she was very un-easy leaving that morning and leaving Shawn to clean up.

Red Ryder said...

Anonymous 6:06 , yes, you're right! I appreciate the clarity of your thoughts! I realize now what I wanted to say is that finding Hailey will show that she is not a runaway, still out there alive somewhere. It is correct that she could have run away and then been killed though it is not the likeliest scenario. I find it difficult to express ideas clearly at times, I think that is one of the reasons I enjoy Statement Analysis so much, it slows things down and moves in simplicity.

Lis said...

Excellent, very penetrating analysis.

One thing that strikes me as very odd in BD's statement is this part:

"Monday morning, I looked in her room and it was dark and it looked like she was laying in bed. But I didn`t go touch her, make sure that was her."

Why would a mother need to go in her child's room and touch her 'to make sure that was her'? There is something very strange about the statement. Who else would it be? Why would someone else have been sleeping in Hailey's bed? Why would she need to 'touch her' to 'make sure that was her'?

Anonymous said...

@ anonymous @ 6:06
I can make up even better stories...It is also possible that Hailey was fed up with her family and wandered away from home and sat down near a cactus plant and wanted to die of starvation, thirst, and exposure... but that doesn't make it so. There is such a thing as circumstantial evidence, and plenty of cases have been won using it.

~ABC said...

If Hailey laid in her bed dead wouldn't there be some trace evidence that a cadaver dog would detect? Were dogs ever brought into that house?

~ABC said...

The "I didn't touch her" comment seemed odd to me when BJD first said it. It seems out of context and calculated. As if she's answering a yet to be asked question. It's just out of place.

Bonnie Blue said...

ABC 12:57pm: If Hailey laid in her bed dead wouldn't there be some trace evidence that a cadaver dog would detect? Were dogs ever brought into that house?

Search dogs from the local prison were brought in to try to track Hailey's sent. There was no report of any hits for cadaver. But, cadaver dogs are not the same as "search" dogs. The dogs used were normally used to track (live) escaped prisoners from the local prison.

There were Cadaver Dogs used a bit later, but at the local dump. There wasn't any reports of "hits" there either.

Bonnie Blue said...

*scent

~ABC said...

Hi Bonnie Blue

Thanks for the info.

Is it just me or doesn't it seem that when a child goes missing from their home Cadaver dogs would be like a first course of action?

john said...

OT..

"No Foul Play" in Jacob Samusenko Disappearance and Drowning
March 21, 2013 04:10 PM EDT

A Pennsylvania coroner says that Jacob Samusenko, a high school athlete and honors student, must have SOMEHOW STUBBED HIS TOE, fallen into the Lake Erie basin, and "accidentally drowned" there. This fatal chain of events, whilst merely taking out the garbage for his parents on the evening of January 29th 2013.

The 17-year-old had been missing for two months until his badly decomposed corpse was sighted floating in the Presque Isle bay earlier this week. Both the coroner and police insist there is nothing suspicious about the youth's uncharacteristic disappearance nor his inexplicable and premature death.

Evidently young men are always vanishing into thin air when simply hauling trashcans down to the curb in Erie Pennsylvania…

"There was absolutely no marks on the body indicating any kind of trauma or foul play," Erie County coroner Lyell Cook announced yesterday. "Based on what we know there was no evidence to suspect that it was a suicide either."

Waterlogged corpses, a forensic analyst's nightmare

If you're going to kill somebody and want to make it look like an accident then there's probably no better place to dump a corpse than in a body of water—the longer it soaks the better, and don't use a gun, knife, or sledgehammer.

What makes freshwater so ideal? Because the average cop and coroner haven't the vaguest idea how to process cadavers which have been retrieved from watery graves.

In fact, if the deceased has been submerged long enough—say two to three weeks or more—their body starts to totally liquefy and their skin slips off!

So, HOW Erie county's astute medical examiner was able to determine that Samusenko had no bruises, lacerations, or even mild puncture wounds is…well…nothing short of a major medical achievement.

Drowning while not engaged in water recreation is a statistical improbability

That's right. Can't happen. If you don't play around in water you won't drown. It's just that simple, statistically speaking.

And when people do perish during water-recreational activities it rarely ever occurs in a natural body of water like a river, lake, pond or stream. It's in the backyard swimming pool which, sadly, is almost never equipped with a certified lifeguard as all pools ought to be.

Even then, according to data annually collected and sifted through by the CDC, the vast majority of drowning victims are small children. That being the case for all the obvious reasons.

john said...

Cont..

Water, water everywhere

There is and always has been a lot of water in all the states where young males between the ages of 17 and 30 have been suddenly vanishing without a trace and showing up in nearby lakes and ponds and rivers for the past 16 years.

There is, for instance, a lot of water in the state of Pennsylvania where 17-year-old Jacob Samusenko vanished and drowned this winter.

There is a lot of water in the state of Illinois where 18-year-old Harsha Maddula vanished and drowned this past September.

There is a lot of water in the state of North Carolina where 19-year-old Tyler Blalock vanished and drowned this past October.

There is a lot of water in the state of New York where 26-year-old David Gerken vanished and drowned this past November.

There is a lot of water is the state of Maine where 21-year-old Zachary Wells and his buddy 23-year-old Prescott Wright vanished and drowned this past December.

There is a lot of water in the state of Massachusetts where 23-year-old Jonathan Dailey vanished and drowned this past October.

There is a lot of water in the state of Arizona where 19-year-old Jack Culolias vanished and drowned this past November.

There is a lot of water in the state of Indiana where 23-year-old Matthew Ward and 22-year-old Joshua Swalls vanished and drowned this past October and November respectively.

There is a lot of water in the state of Wisconsin where 24-year-old Robert Steinbrecker vanished and drowned this past December.

And there is a lot of water in the Wisconsin cities of Milwaukee and Madison, in particular, where 24-year-old Nick Wilcox still remains missing since New Year's eve, and 26-year-old Charlie Geurts since January 15th…

Will they too be found "accidentally" drowned?
..............................

"SOMEHOW STUBBED HIS TOE" Highly unlikely but possible.

If he did stub his toe and fell in, why not swim back safe?

Could he swim?

If he couldn't swim why go so close to the edge in the dark.


http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981861930

SALurker said...

John-good article. Freaking scary statistics there. I wonder how many young men that just "vanish" end up in water statistically speaking.

Something is going on. I can think of more than just the listed cases where young, missing men are found in water.

Sure young men are sometimes fearless & don't things through well. But this is very alarming. I would like to see more of a study on this.

john said...

Hi SALurker,

I found this on Eyes Blog.

Twenty Percent of Drownings Could Be Homicides...Accidental Drownings May Not All BE Accidents..



http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=9028347

SAlurker said...

John-thanks for that video. Now I'm sure there's something weird going on. I wonder what the percentages of young, missing males going missing-found in a body of water as opposed to young females going missing-found in water are.

It is very scary!

I wonder if there is any truth to the smiley face (??? Is that the name???) killings.

I have a feeling that there will be a lot of Google searches in my future. (Schedule permitting.)

SAlurker said...

I shouldn't have used the word "statistics". Sorry. "Examples" would have been a better word.

john said...

Here is a geographical map of the locations the bodies were found.

Scroll down.

http://healthcrimeinthenews.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/smiley-face-killers-is-the-theory-true/

Nic said...

Anon @ March 23, 2013 at 6:06 PM

If you think back to the Susan Powell case, we found out after Josh had killed the kids and himself that LE had all the forensic proof they needed to prosecute Josh except Susan's body. But that obviously the DA/LE weren't willing to take the chance of losing their case/only chance to prosecute Josh because without Susan/her body nobody could say with 100% certainty, that she had succumbed to the struggle that took place in the home before she was reported missing/having "abandoned" her family. (Think double jeopardy laws).

In this case, time will tell what LE has been sitting on. Hopefully we won't have to wait much longer to hear if the remains are Hailey's and if so, that the DA/LE/Texas Rangers/whomever will *finally* move ahead with an arrest/s.

Re cadavre dog - Initially Hailey was reported as a "runaway" so blood hounds were used instead of a cadavre dog to try and track (a supposedly live) Hailey's scent. In the interim, the living room couch was (permitted to be) removed/replaced because at the time, they were technically dealing with a "runaway" not a "crime scene". However, once reports of Hailey sightings were disproved and that things Hailey would have taken with her if she was a runaway, like her favourite coat, shoes, MP3 player, etc., were left behind, the focus of Hailey's disappearance changed and the house was re-examined. So who knows what LE ended up finding. I'm liking the idea of a diary. That's akin to "the talking dead" and written statements made by Hailey would be hard to refute.

Something else that an astute poster posted in the beginning about BJD's behaviour. When she was being inerviewed by a local newscast, the phone rang during the interview. BJD was visibly irritated that her interview/face time was being interrupted by a ringing phone. i.e., She didn't seem at all anxious to learn whether or not the person on the other end could be Hailey. They analyzed the behaviour to mean that BJD knew it wasn't Hailey or someone calling on her behalf, becuase she already knew that her daughter was dead. (Statement Analysis also confirmed this around the same time because BJD had referred to Hailey in the past tense.)

As Peter has repeatedly pointed out, BJD is a case study as to why defence attorneys do not allow their clients to speak and/or to keep out of the public eye. Think Terri Horman. She had said *nothing* and continues to refuse to cooperate with LE and their investigation.

Justice for Hailey and God speed that she is brought home and is respectfully laid to rest.

Lis said...

OT
John, I don't know if Joseph Samusenko was the victim of foul play or if he simply fell into the water, but here are a couple thoughts that came to me.

"If he did stub his toe and fell in, why not swim back safe?"

How icy was it? Was it impossible to climb back out? It was stated that by morning the lake was frozen solid so it must have been mostly frozen at the time he fell in.

"If he couldn't swim why go so close to the edge in the dark."

-How close is the path he was on to the water?

-He was young, at the stage of life where one feels invincible. His mother said he liked to jump and roll (acrobatics) while he was running, he may have missed his footing and fell in.

-Possibly to relieve himself. This could be the simple reason why these deaths are a male phenomenon. Most of the deaths attributed to the smiley face killers were young men who were highly intoxicated and were walking home along bodies of water. It is likely they stopped to relieve themselves and fell in. Intoxication plus ice cold water is a deadly combination. In Joseph's case, he was not intoxicated but have you ever tried to keep your footing on ice covered with a layer of water?

Either way, it is too bad he went alone.

john said...

HI Lis,

These are questions we may never know unfortunately.

Do LE release Autopsy results?

I ask this because if he had water in his lungs he has drowned,be it by his own doing,slipping etc,or maybe, his head was held under the water by someone.

If there is no water in his lungs he has met foul play before entering the water.

A sad outcome all the same.

Hobnob said...

Regarding falling into the lake and why Joseph Samusenko didn't swim back (assuming it was accidental and he was concious and sober)

Much depends on the temperature both on land and also in the water.

If the water is very cold as soon as he fell in the shock of the temp could cause a heart attack thus no swimming back.

The shock of the cold water could cause an instinctive gasp of shock whilst underwater, inhaled water causing panic and drowning.

Since it was presumably night he could have lost track of where he was and thus unable to swim to land, the cold causing hypothermia and death.

The autopsy will reveal if there was any water in his lungs and if so if it was lake water, water from elsewhere or tapwater (every sample is different and unique to a specific area based on ph, chemistry, bacteria and sundry miniscule life forms)

What is missing is what happened between him putting out the trash and him ending up in the lake.
what clothing was he wearing?
Had he said he was going for a run and then asked to put the trash out on his way?

Figure out what was said before he left the house, where he went before he was found in the lake and we may have an answer

Jo said...

We recently had a young man drown at a near by college town. He was visiting from another college and did not know the area. He tried to walk back to friends house and walked onto the frozen over river thinking it was a snow covered road. Roads can lead right up to the water and in the dark with snow, it can be hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. People near by heard him scream for help but where not able to find him in the dark.

Lis said...

OT
A sad outcome, indeed, John. Such a young man. :-(

Lis said...

Jo, that is so sad! :-(

I have seen the snow covered roads just as you describe many times, also. It can be very dangerous.