Wednesday, April 3, 2013
Statement Analysis: Billie Dunn Radio Interview Analyzed
"Nobody be punished" Billie Dunn
Yesterday, a woman in the Bronx, New York, was stabbed 40 times by a stranger, and lived to tell about it. Her husband said, among other things, that the assailant must be found and punished, lest others be attacked as his wife was.
This is the expected reaction: There is a violent assailant loose and must be caught even for the sake of others.
This is an expected response. Statement Analysis is confronted by the unexpected.
What's it like to interview a narcissistic sociopathic killer and not be aware of it?
How could someone go an entire show with allegations hanging over her head without once saying "I didn't do it"?
What is it like to hear someone say anything but, "I told the truth" and still pander softball questions?
This is one of the most shocking interviews and will, one day, likely be used in teaching Analytical Interviewing the way the video clips of Scott Peterson are now used in trainings, as this shows, through careful listening, just how the truth leaks out through the words spoken.
Kaaryn Gough likens words in the brain to marbles. Here is her visual imagery:
The marbles are words in the brain and the deceptive person opens the door to let out some marbles, that is, she must choose her words, yet it is that some marbles, unintended, slip out, as it becomes very challenging to control the flow of marbles. In analysis, this is called "leakage"; that is, information that 'leaks out' from the subject's own words, that were not intended.
This interview contains the words of the mother of missing 13 year old Hailey Dunn in which leakage is at play.
Statement Analysis is in bold type. Underlining and coloring, is added for emphasis. We add red to highlight specific deception, and blue as the SCAN technique's highest level of sensitivity. Where you see the color blue, know that you are looking at a very sensitive portion of the statement. If you see the color blue coupled with a second, or even third blue, you are looking at extreme sensitivity. SCAN calls this a "cluster of blues" in analysis, and the color jumps off the page to the analyst.
It is fascinating to look back, after all that has been revealed through analysis first, and the Police Affidavit secondly, and see where the mother's deceptive answers were picked up, and where they were not. Some hosts knew, like Nancy Grace, while others, perhaps untrained or less experienced, did not. For some, it is intuitive, while for others, it takes training, practice and time. I am of the latter.
The interviewer is (I) and the person being interviewed is the subject (S), for the purposes of analysis.
The principles of analysis are applied in the same manner on all statements.
Analytical Interviewing is an interview based upon the subject's own words.
The best interview is where the subject speaks 90% of the time, and the Interviewer only speaks 10% or less. The trained and skillful interviewer will avoid introducing words to the subject. Thanks to Equinox for the transcription.
HOST: Billie are you there?
Host: Help us understand what is true and what is not, okay, so how about this Billie how about if we just start with the day Hailey went missing. Tell us about that day. Tell us what happened. Walk us through everything that happened that day including when she went missing. And when you found out
In Analytical Interviewing, we conduct the interview in a legally sound, non-persuasive manner. We begin with open ended questions, do not interrupt the subject, and then highlight the subject's own words with follow up questions. We seek to avoid, whenever possible, introducing a single word to the subject. How someone words a question can teach the subject how to lie, or reveal to the subject the information the Interviewer has.
Because this is a radio program, the Interviewer may have to interrupt the Subject due to time constraints or commercial breaks. This is something not done in an investigation, even if the subject is rambling incessantly because, as Kaaryn Gough says, "the brain knows" and the words, even in incessant and seemingly off topic rambling, are vital.
It is best to simply ask, "What happened?" but here the Interviewer is aware that there is information online that is being questioned. What's most important is to ask the question and then take careful note where the subject begins the answer, and what words are employed.
Instead of simply asking "What happened?", the Interviewer has given commentary which the Subject now answers. We will listen to the answer carefully. We will not what she calls her daughter, "Hailey", or "her" or "my daughter" and we will note the context in which she uses it.
BJD: okay. Well I have hundreds of times but I'll put it out, I'll say it again umm..
Note "hundreds" of times; the subject complains about saying the same thing. The analyst should now be on alert that the subject might be speaking from memory: not experiential memory, but memory of what she said previously, especially since she has assigned a number ("hundreds") to the account.
Note that the subject is not simply telling what happened, but is going to "put it out" and say it again.
When someone says they are going to "put it out there" or "put it out", it generally means that it is an opinion that some will take, and some will object to. The subject is doing this instead of giving an account. Even before beginning her answer, she has alerted the Interviewer that something is not going to be strongly committed to.
She went missing on Monday. I didn't find out till Tuesday. So Monday when I was at work, Shawn called me at some point in the afternoon.
Note that the subject begins with
1. Monday. Then she moves to
2. Tuesday. Then she moves back to
Very early in her statement, she is concerned with letting the audience know that she, herself, did not find out until Tuesday. The pronoun "I" is injected here, about the child going missing.
She also finds it important to note that she was at a specific location: work.
Recall in her first Nancy Grace interview, she said, "She went missing while I was at work" establishing the priority of her alibi.
"I didn't find out" is in the negative, and is sensitive to her.
Note "Shawn" is an incomplete social introduction. This should be viewed in context:
It may be that by using only his first name, "Shawn" that she has an expectation that the interviewer (and audience) knows who he is.
I guess it must've been around 330 or four because it was after Hailey left the house and before David got home so I asked him what my kids were doing and he said David isn't home yet and Hailey went to her dad's and she's spending the night with Mary Beth. So I said okay.
We have highlighted a critical point of sensitivity in the account. The subject feels the need to explain why she "guesses" the time: she does so measuring it by Hailey's departure.
Why would this be so very sensitive to the subject? We have "two blues" very close together:
1. The time chosen in the story
2. Hailey leaving the house
This analysis is not in a vacuum, as this case has been given extensive analysis since Hailey's disappearance. This is a critical portion of the story the subject presented on the Nancy Grace Show which resembled the case of another young girl who went missing and was murdered. Carlie Brucia case was at the True Crime Library that Billie Dunn mentioned downloading from, on the Nancy Grace Show.
In his own research, Statement Analyst Mark McClish concluded that when someone is going to give a deceptive account, and must choose a number between 1 and 9, they most often cling to the number "3"; meaning that, in his work, "3 is the liar's number."
He had students and law enforcement officials also track this and submit their findings to him, which confirmed his work.
In my own interviewing experience, I found it also to be true.
I believe the "guess" of time and Hailey "leaving" is highly sensitive to the subject because while she speaks it, she knows what she is saying is a fabrication and that Hailey's remains were disposed of earlier that morning when Shawn Adkins drove to his job, spoke to no one but allowed himself to be seen, and left after buying a soda.
If this is true, Billie Jean Dunn would have to know that this is a fabrication in order to show the reason for sensitivity. If she had believed the account, she could tell it without sensitivity. She would not have the need to explain why she did anything, nor even where she was. It is within these additional words that we have sensitivity due to deception.
So that night after I got home, David did come in my room, after I was laying down maybe nine or 10 o'clock and he said mom I don't like Hailey over at Mary Beth's her boyfriend's always there. And I said well that's good to know she's probably not going over there anymore. I was little upset Hailey didn't clear it with me anyhow - she had just cleared it with Shawn.
So the next day. I thought she'd spent the night with a friend. Around noon I called David, I said go ahead and call Hailey.. Hailey's friend to tell her to tell Hailey to come home now. So David did that, and called me right back not too long later and said "Mom. She said Hailey didn't spend the night there" and I said get over to your Dad's because he lives basically across the street. I said Go over there and see if Hailey spent the night there. And this was already very unlike Hailey, she never done this.
Note "David did come" and not "David came..." this additional word "did" is used to emphasize. When someone is habitually deceptive, they often feel a need to be 'proud' or emphatic when they do, in fact, say something truthful.
Note her need to include her body posture, "laying" indicating an increase of tension for the subject.
Note that she didn't like Hailey not clearing it with her, but didn't call Hailey, nor check on her.
Note that her son is portrayed in a positive, big brother role, yet Clint reported that instead of searching for his baby sister, he played video games while with his mother. This suggests that he knew there was no point in searching. The private investigator said that the bond was extreme between them.
Note the scripted plan: She called David to call Hailey, instead of calling Hailey directly. This is avoidance.
She wished to portray as concerned with "I was a little upset" and even went as far to persuade audience that David was concerned, yet she did not call, even with "Marybeth's boyfriend" being over there. There was no call from her daughter, yet still, she does not call Hailey? This from the woman who called herself a "wonderful" mother?
Was the interviewer a parent? Would these 'errors in script' be picked up? Mother has the wherewithal to call son, whom she was not concerned about, but not daughter, whom she was concerned about; not that night, and not the next morning and not the next afternoon.
This is deliberate distancing from Hailey.
Note, "Call Hailey, Hailey's friend" confuses which one to call. This is where it is difficult to keep track of the details of that which is fabricated.
This actually gives us even more distance:
1. She is worried about Hailey that night about a sleepover, but does not call.
2. David expresses worry about Hailey, but Mother does not call.
3. The next morning, she does not call.
4. The next afternoon, she does not call.
5. She tells David to call Marybeth, not Hailey, nor does she call herself.
This is, degree by degree, distancing herself from Hailey. She doesn't even want David to call Hailey, but to make the script work, the ruse must go on: David is to call Marybeth, who will act surprised and say "Hailey's not here; we didn't plan a sleep over" which is then to subtly blame the victim, herself, for deception.
Billie Jean Dunn is blaming Hailey.
The victim is disparaged.
Host: Right So now you're worried
BJD: So.. Right. I'm already panicked. David went over there, called me back said "Mom, Hailey didn't stay the night there". Clint didn't have a phone. I said David take my phone back over to your dad's and let me talk to him. So he did. I got Clint on the phone and I told him I'm coming home. I was at work 20 miles away, I'm coming home. You go ahead and go to the police station and file a missing persons report. Hailey is not where she was supposed to be. And I thought at that time. I asked had Hailey at least stopped by there . And I thought that he told me Naomi said she did. But I wasn't here I was with my friends playing video games.
Host: could you repeat that.
BJD: Clint said that Naomi had told him Hailey did stop by Monday but he wasn't there. He wasn't there. He didn't see her.
Host: Okay. And Naomi is ?
BJD: Clint's girlfriend
Host: could you please speak up.
BJD: So I get my sister all to come and pick me up from work and to bring me back to Colorado City so I can find my daughter. We got into town. I went by her best friend Heather's house. Nobody was home there. So we went by Heather's grandma's house and didn't get an answer, so I left a note at Heather's house and then I went to the police station and reported her missing. After that for a couple of days, it's pretty hazy.
Here we have the subject's need to tell us why she had to get a ride home from work, making it very sensitive to her. Note the two blues. By telling us why she had her sister come, it is a high point of sensitivity and suggests that there was a very different reason for having her sister come.
Follow the pronouns:
1. We got into town
2. I went by Heather's
3. We went by Heather's grandma's
What caused the change from "we" to "I" to "we"?
Pronouns are instinctive and do not lie. When pronouns are in error, we are looking at deception by the subject. This was a phony scripted 'going by', as if casual, rather than an actual panic-mother searching for her missing child.
The emotions and language do not match.
The pronouns are inconsistent.
"I" left note; "I" went to police. Was her sister no longer with her?
Host: Okay, so when you say hazy you mean because it was so stressful and..
When a parent is on high alert, the hormonal rise brings great clarity of mind. Dr. Ekman points out that not remembering is a low stress way of deception. Here, the Interviewer just gave her the interpretation: "so stressful" reminding us not to introduce any new words, whenever possible, so that the subject, herself, can tell us about what "hazy" meant to her. The days following were critical:
She did not search.
She threw a New Year's Eve party.
David did not search.
Clint searched but was surprised that Billie Dunn watched television and the 'concerned' big brother (see above) played video games.
Most high schoolers would have likely not only been searching, but mobilizing the high school students to pass out flyers and search, within police recommendations.
To sit at home and watch her "favorite" soap opera, and for David to be playing video games, while Clint Dunn went searching, was something to be noted in Behavioral Analysis. Private investigator Mac Sanford reported the heavy and strong bond between mother and son.
BJD: I think so. Before I reported her missing. I can remember everything very well . But actually going to the police station and having to report your child missing is too overwhelming and I just don't remember things really well
The subject has now prepared the audience to hear conflicting information and wants it excused. This is important to the subject. Yet, even while doing so, she does not want to lie, so she, instead, using the 2nd person, "your child" instead of her own child, which technically, is not a lie, especially since the host has invited a mother on a program who lost her own daughter. It was a clever move by Billie Dunn to not only seek to excuse her deceptive responses, but to align a true victim with herself:
Host: your mind can certainly shut down to protect you because you got so much stress. Carrie (Carrie McGonagal, Amber Dubois's mom) do you have anything you'd like to add or ask Billie?
Carrie: Billie there was a time that you called for.. Did you call the Texas Rangers and stuff. I know that you called us. You called..
BJD: oh yeah. I called the Texas Rangers, a week or two into it because I felt not enough was being done. I called them a couple of times and then Clint called FBI and I called FBI before FBI also got involved, also..
Note that she seeks praise for calling another law enforcement agency yet it is sensitive as she feels the need to explain why she called them.
"not enough" was being done. She had been accused of lying to police by the local police so she changed gears and tried her luck with the Texas Rangers who found the same as the local police : she is lying.
She adds that she called them a couple of times indicating, again, her frustration at not being given immediate call backs. Law Enforcement suspected her and was not giving her information. Deceptive people have a desperate need to control information and belief. (See Scott Peterson)
Host: Understand that the people that on web sleuths and myself. We are not asking these questions to embarrass you or to make you feel bad, but it helps us know what's going on and it helps to get, I know you told this story 1 million times
What one says in the negative is sensitive. Here, they are "not" asking questions to embarrass her; yet it is that when she is asked, embarrassment comes. This shows a recognition that the questions are both embarrassing and going to make her feel "bad"; why not just ask and let truth be the guide?
BJD: There are people with their minds made up. I've put the truth out there over and over again.
This is a similar expression from the one above, by "putting something out there" for people to decide for themselves. This is what is done with opinions, not with fact. There is no peace treaty between a false accusation and an innocent person. This is a perfect time for the subject to issue a reliable denial and not accept any possibility that she had anything to do with Hailey's disappearance.
She does not take the opportunity.
Here is where she can tell us what the truth is. She does not need to "put it out" there; she can simply say the truth.
She chooses not to.
Host: I know that. But when I'm just learning some of this stuff new tonight. I didn't know some of these things that you're telling me this is good. I have an affidavit here. It was about getting a search warrant and it said that you took a polygraph and it said that the first one you had to stop because you were taking narcotics. Were you taking any narcotics the night or the day after that Hailey went missing?
Analytical Interviewing seeks to avoid introducing anything to the subject, instead, focusing on the subject's own words. Here the interviewer introduces:
b. search warrant
This is given in the form of sentences, until the question, "were you taking...?" is asked. Best to avoid all such.
BJD: umm.. The same… same night I did. Monday night. I did. I had hydrocodone and antibiotics for a bad tooth
Here we have the answer in the affirmative (she could have said "yes" and let it be) but the need to explain the reason why, making narcotics ("hydrocodone") sensitive to her.
Due to the police affidavit, along with analysis from the Nancy Grace Show, we know more about this use of "hydrocodone."
Hydrocodone is Vicodin. It is a strong pain killer (narcotic). Billie Dunn's method of deception is interesting to study. On the Nancy Grace Show, Nancy Grace asked her question after question and embarrassed Dunn, because Dunn kept on being deceptive.
Here is her method:
Dunn attempted to say that she picked up a prescription drug that she had been prescribed.
This is technically true.
She did pick up a prescription drug, hydrocodone, the generic name for Vicodin.
She had previously in life been prescribed hydrocodone.
These two sentences are both true. It is in withholding information that she shows her deception:
1. She picked up the hydrocodone, not at a pharmacy, but at a street corner.
2. She bought from a drug dealer, not a pharmacist.
3. She did not have a prescription to buy it as doctors do not write prescriptions to drug dealers.
She also uses the method of additional words.
She was taking "hydrocodone and antibiotics."
By throwing in the word "antibiotics" she makes it sound as if a doctor prescribed these two drugs together.
She went on a drug buy and emptied her and Shawn Adkins' accounts for the drugs.
That night, she needed drugs, badly. Why?
Host: Okay so I'm thinking that maybe that might be the cause of some haziness to be add that to the stress of that happening
Alcohol blackouts in memory are not recoverable. Vicodin would not have blurred her memory, but it is the Interviewer who has given the subject the excuse. This is an example of how instructors say "do not teach the subject how to lie by your words"
BJD: probably so
Host: I want to talk to about this affidavit that I have I'm sure you've seen it but first I want to talk about something to get cleared up. Carrie and I were talking before the show about something. There's an article in a newspaper called Ccitynews.net and in this article, it claims that Hailey's family has not made it easy for the police department to work with them and to try and find Hailey. According to the article the police department gave you a phone for maintaining contact after your phone was seized it was seized by the police. But then you disconnected the phone. That's not true. Tell me about that.
Analytical Interviewing Goal: get the subject to speak 90% of the time. Do not introduce words. Let the subject guide you.
"According to the article:
1. Police gave BJD a phone to call them
2. BJD disconnected it.
Then the Interviewer says "that's not true" (assertion) and asks BJD to tell about it:
BJD: No they didn't give me a phone.
This is a strong sentence. They did not give her a phone.
They did take my phone, turn it off.
This is also a strong sentence. They took her phone. She and Shawn failed polygraphs and were Persons of Interest in the disappearance. This makes sense. They are going to seize any evidence from those suspected, whenever they can.
Umm.. Never monitored it. I called it several times. I had family that called it several times.. The voice mailbox is full. It's not been checked. It's turned off. It goes straight to voicemail still.
"Never monitored it" drops the pronoun. How would she know what they were doing? Police did not take her phone to "monitor" it, that is, to wait for the killer to call. They were looking for evidence. While police had her phone, she called it. Why? She had family call it. (she is in charge). Why?
They took my phone and I never got a reason why I didn't get the phone back.
Police do not reveal this type of sensitive information to those they suspect in a crime. They were looking for, among other things, pornography.
I really wanted it just because of pictures Hailey had put on there of herself,
She was concerned about pictures of Hailey, which is why she feels the need to say "why" she "really wanted it" back. There may have been deletions that she was concerned about being recovered.
but FDI did come in sometime later because I already had another phone from one of my best friends, she gave me her phone to use.
Here is why "they" didn't give her a phone: because she "already" had one. So if Hailey were to call, she could answer. This is another example of deception and technical truth telling. She has a phone: did she turn it off as alleged?
FBI gave me another phone and I kept That one also. I only use the cell phone my friend gave me. I use that one for everything. I only use the one FBI gave me to talk with primarily the Texas Rangers. When it ran out of minutes, I didn't put more minutes on it.
She didn't disconnect it; she just didn't add minutes to it. This is technical truth, while being deceptive.
Note the word "with" between "me" and the "Texas Rangers" putting distance between them.
Note the desire to denigrate law enforcement on both sides of the interview. What is the purpose of doing so?
Host: So if the police needed to contact you. Do they have a way to contact you or are they just playing with words here by saying that they're having trouble contacting you?
The interviewer introduces disparagement of law enforcement with the words "playing with words here"; this is to give information, not to seek it, and highlights the need for training.
BJD: Oh definitely yes they had my other number as well because I was calling up there several times a day and they would always.. Oh they're busy.. They're in meetings let me take a message. They always took my other number down.
This is Billie Jean Dunn's spin about the lack of information law enforcement would give her as a Person of Interest in the case.
The police are not sharing information with her: she has made this clear. Why doesn't the Interviewer recognize this simple fact and ask questions about it?
The constant repetition of the theme is indicative of just how sensitive it is to Billie Jean Dunn: she cannot bear being seen as shut out of the flow of information like a common suspect, but that is exactly the case.
Host: When was the last time that you called them?
Remember the host said that they were not trying to embarrass her? (in the negative). This is an example of why it is sensitive:
BJD: It has been a long time. Since my arrest.
Host: Why is that? Is there a particular reason.?
The host is pitching in a softball for her to knock out of the park, allowing her to give reason or excuse for the lack of contact. Note the length of the answer as she is not only happy to respond, but see the blue color coding as highly sensitive:
BJD: I was, I had been cooperating with them and doing things they asked me to do even if I didn't agree. I just did it just because just to let them get over this 'n so they would start looking for Hailey instead of playing who done it. So I was very cooperative up until umm.. I got arrested. And I just decided it's, it's not paying off. And it's not working. Mainly because that night when I was taken to jail,one of the DA detectives pulled me out of the cell several times to accuse me of having some knowledge of where Hailey was or what had happened to her and telling me that she was deceased. Which I can barely even say that. I don't want to think about that. I still feel like the worst thing that I can do is give up hope on my daughter. And I can't, I hate the man. I think he's a snake now. I think he's the devil.
1. Note the word "with" shows distance. She "had" been cooperating "with" them. She was not cooperating. She was not telling the truth. She tried to take her polygraph under the influence. She failed her polygraph. She lied to them about Shawn Adkins. So while she wants to say she was cooperating, she cannot use the word "we", which would have showed unity. This is why we say it is so difficult to 'really' lie outright. Even while being deceptive, the words show truth.
2. Note that she says she feigned cooperation "just because" they would "get over this"; which was to look at who did this to find Hailey.
Guilty people like to say "we need to just look for the missing person" when it is that when we learn "who done it" we can find the missing person. Mark Redwine has repeated that he wants the focus to turn to finding Dylan, yet we know that by focusing on Redwine, we can find Dylan. Police knew that by focusing on Billie Dunn and Shawn Adkins, they could find Hailey.
3. Note that while her 13 year old daughter is missing, she calls the law enforcement attempt to solve the crime "playing" who done it.
It is difficult to understand how the Interviewer could have heard these words, and not stopped the interview to ask for an explanation of something so boldly shocking. This is a willful avoidance of seeking information from the subject.
4. Note, again, the sensitivity with "cooperation" found in being "very" cooperative. There should be no sensitivity, whatsoever, attached to a parent's cooperation when a child is missing. Clint Dunn was not "very" cooperative. He just did what he could. We do not even read of him "cooperating" with the investigation. Why not?
There was no reason to bring up the topic.
Joe Tacopina said that Deborah Bradley was being "very" cooperative in the search for Baby Lisa. We noted the word "very" as making cooperation "sensitive" to Bradley, only to learn, shortly afterwards, that she had certain portions of her house off limits to police searching and testing, and that she would not interview without Lisa's father, Jeremy Irwin, present. This is why cooperation was made sensitive by the word "very"; highlighting even the need to use the word "cooperation" when a child is missing.
5. The word "And", when it begins a sentence, indicates missing information.
6. She calls the detective who accused her a "snake" and "the devil." It is interesting that he is a snake "now", indicating that there was a time when Billie Dunn thought of him in some other manner. It should be noted that he was a "man"; and not a "person" or her more often used word, a "guy."
Here, the detective had taken her out of her cell and accused of her knowing where Hailey was dumped and that she was involved.
Yet it is here that she reports that he accused her of knowing where Hailey was, and what happened, but she does not bring herself to make a denial.
Since the case broke, neither Shawn Adkins nor Billie Jean Dunn have once said, "I did not cause Hailey's disappearance" in all their television and radio interviews.
Statement Analysis Rule:
If a subject is unwilling or unable to say "I didn't do it", we are not permitted to say it for him.
This is why training in interviewing is vital.
This shocking answer should have been followed up on with direct questions asking the subject to explain the use of her words.
She refers to being arrested in the same answer as she used the word "cooperate" in. Why was she arrested?
She was hiding Shawn Adkins in her home.
Is the DA's detective now part of the overall conspiracy? How is it that 'web sleuths' allowed such a grandiose and untenable theory to go unchecked?
This is why, at times, law enforcement can quickly dismiss such.
Host: let's talk about your arrest because maybe people don't know about that. Billie you were arrested for according to the police, giving them false information when they were trying to find your boyfriend at the time, Shawn Adkins. Correct?
BJD: it was. It was. No it was lying to a police officer because they asked was Shawn there. I told them no.
The mother of a missing 13 year old had been told that they believed he was involved and she hid him, and had the steady nerve and presence of mind to look at them, while he hid, and lie for him.
This showed her priority: Shawn Adkins over Hailey Dunn.
Note "it was" is passive. She does not say "I lied to police", but rather uses the passive wording, which seeks to reduce responsibility.
Question: What mother of a 'missing' child would lie to police during the investigation about the very man police had told her they initially suspected?
Answer: an involved mother.
Host: Right right . Lying to a police officer right. What happened with those charges?
BJD: There were other charges that were completely dismissed or dropped because they were so bogus. The lying to the police officer, that happened. I did that.
They were "so bogus" but she does not say that they were untrue. There were drug charges. She purchased street drugs and put them in old prescription bottles; common for addicts.
Host: let's back up. Why did you lie? Why didn't you let them know Shawn was there?
BJD: I'm not even sure.
Note that she does not say she does not know.
Note that she does not say that she was not certain.
Note that she says "I'm not even sure"
"I'm" is in the present tense. She is asked about what she did in the past. What did she think at the time she lied? By moving into the present tense, she avoids the question, making the question sensitive to her. How is it that the Interviewer missed this?
Note also, the additional word, "even" sure; qualifying a weak assertion.
This means she knows why she did it.
I just know that Shawn didn't wanna talk to them.
She knew that Shawn did not want to talk to them.
Q. What did "they" want to talk to Shawn about?
A. About her daughter's disappearance.
Billie Jean Dunn's "cooperation" is sensitive because:
1. She lied to police
2. She attempted to trick the polygraph
3. She thwarted the investigation in this lie to police, to protect Shawn Adkins.
Not only did she not cooperate with police, she sought to harm the investigation into her daughter's disappearance.
Their vehicle pulled up and I said to Shawn. I think they want to talk to you and he said I'm not gonna talk to them. I don't feel like talking to them right now. So at first I told them Shawn wasn't there.
Note the minimization of she only thought they wanted to talk to him. This shows that she was prepared to lie for him as she knew why they were there.
When one fails a polygraph, it means the person lied. The person does not want to tell the truth, nor does she want the truth known.
Lying to police, either directly, or being caught in the polygraph, is being uncooperative and damning to an investigation.
Host: so Billie can you see why people might go Well! Here her daughter's missing and she lies for her boyfriend and I see why the police did it. It was a pressure tactic to see if they could get you to talk but I think you can understand how that might look. We are talking about perception here and sometimes perception and what is really the truth can be two totally different things. Can you understand how people can look at that and see that she's protecting her boyfriend. Why would she lie?
Host: Let me say something. Billie, this is something you have to accept. Billie lied to the police. That's the difference. She lied.
Carrie: But then they returned! What happened when they returned, Billie?
Another softball attempt to make agreement with the subject. This is feeding information rather than seeking it.
BJD: Well they didn't return. He just asked if could he come in and look and knowing he was gonna find him and I could've told him no.
She knew that police knew she was a liar, which is why she added "and look"; she knew he did not come in to talk to her, but to "look."
Here, she takes credit for not telling him "no"; as if lying to impede the investigation wasn't wrong, but something she needs to be praised for. This is her method of self-deception.
I told him yeah come in and look. I don't care.
"I don't care" is in the negative. If it was true that she did not care, she would not have had to lie.
Shawn wasn't supposed to be there, anyhow.
She blames Shawn. This is why I have repeatedly said that if one of them is arrested, she will make a deal in order to blame him, and save herself.
I didn't think I, I think he was waiting for his mom to come and get him. because we were arguing.
Here she is deceptive again: "I didn't think" is stopped (self censoring) and changed to "I think" with a stutter on the pronoun, "I" from a non-stutterer.
Note the need to explain why his mother would come and get him (or why not, if you take it in the negative).
Note the use of the pronoun "we" as unity, cooperation.
But. So. I don't know I just told them yeah, come in. and so he came in.
Please notice that coming into her home is sensitive to her: it is only because she told him "yeah, come in"; this is something very important to her. She does not like being out of control, or someone else having control or authority over her. This is deeply embedded into her personality that I have seen over the past two plus years. Here is an example of it:
And went and got Shawn and talked to him and just set us on the couch. They didn't let me know what was going on and I just didn't understand anything. Another police officer came over and she took me into my bedroom and would not let me go out of my bedroom and wouldn't let Shawn come in my bedroom To check on me. And she held me there until they came and arrested me and asked if he could search my house again. And I said yeah.
1. He set us down: someone else having control
2. The policewoman would not let her out of the bedroom, leaving the police woman with control.
She did not want Shawn Adkins answering questions without her presence.
3. They wouldn't let Shawn come into her bedroom, either.
She mentions it both ways: she could not go to him, and he could not go to her. She did not want Adkins interviewed without her. This is where liars panic: they need to keep control over the information, and keep track of it. This is very stressful for her. The tension is high, even as noted with "set down" body posture.
4. "She held me there" until she was arrested. Was this a physical hold? Where are the follow up questions?
5. Now note the need to give permission to search again as being important to her. It is likely that she gave permission because she knew they'd have a warrant in a few hours.
Host: I understand where you're coming from. I do think Carrie and I have talked at length about this and again I don't want you to think that I'm jumping all over you or anything but you know you lied to the police. They can arrest you. It's just black and white there's no. If you hadn't lied to the police – they couldn't have arrested you. There is your perception of reality and I understand what you're saying but let's talk a little bit about Shawn. Okay because a lot of people have a lot of trouble with Shawn. Now He admitted according to this affidavit to threatening you and to threatening Hailey. Correct.?
Here the interviewer challenges that Shawn had threatened violence:
BJD: According to the affidavit. The affidavit is anything the police want to say to be able to get what they want. He's has never accused Hailey and he never said that he did either. I disagree with many things in that.
Note that the question, "Correct?" is now sensitive to Billie Dunn, as she avoids giving assent (yes) or denying it ("incorrect" or "no")
Host: This is why I want to talk to you. Has Shawn ever threatened you or threatened Hailey?
BJD: He has threatened me. He has never threatened Hailey. That's a whole completely different story.
Domestic Violence does not differentiate. When a woman is threatened, the children are not safe. It puzzled me when I first heard this, how it was that the hosts allowed her to lecture something so terribly foolish as it being acceptable to threaten a mother, as long as the daughter is not threatened.
When a woman is a victim of domestic violence and moves the perpetrator into her home, child protective services move to take the children out of the home so that they are not exposed to violence, should the mother refuse to move the assailant out, immediately. This is called "Failure to Protect."
In Billie Jean Dunn's world, the violence or threat of violence, against her is acceptable for Hailey.
How was it that this was not challenged?
Host: What do you mean a different story. Tell me what you mean?
BJD: That's completely different. You don't threaten my children. That's just way completely different in my eyes and in my mind. If you're mad at me and you want to talk ugly to me that's fine but he's never said anything about my children. He wouldn't have been there.
Does Dunn know right from wrong?
Answer: yes. Here she says "in my eyes and in my mind" recognizing that in others' eyes and minds, it is not "way" "completely" different.
Note also that this being "different" is qualified by "way" and "completely"; the two words which reveal that Billie Dunn knows that it is not different.
She was a victim of domestic violence growing up; whether physically against her, or as a child, eye witnessing it.
Both the one who receives physical abuse, and the one who witnesses it, will suffer repercussions later in life.
Host: So you're saying He's never threatened Hailey at all.
Why would this matter to any mother listening? How is it that an Interviewer can even ask it this way, as if, somehow, the violence is justified? Note the word "never" is used, along with "at all."
Host: Okay, but he has threatened you. Now some might ask he's threatened you. Therefore he is dangerous and he is in your house with your children. Do you feel that Shawn is dangerous, you had a restraining order placed on him. Correct?
1. The assertion that he is dangerous.
2 that the kids are in the house
3. Then she asks if BJD "feels" he is dangerous?
4. Then she asks about the restraining order?
Interviewing should always avoid compound questions. It allows the subject to pick and choose which question to answer.
BJD: Yes, and that was again more just to try to work with police and I'd basically given up yet I still took out the order like they asked me to. And now when I wanted to have it pulled back. I couldn't
Host: He did threaten to kill you. Correct?
Host: I thought Shawn had said he threatened Hailey that's not true. You're saying, according to you that didn't happen.
Why would the host seek to minimize this claim? How does one mark such a difference in danger? Was this to appease Billie Dunn? Was it to indict or accuse the police of lying on the affidavit?
Billie Dunn has, on this show, admitted lying for Shawn Adkins. Why would she be believed now?
Host: Okay I can only go by the information that I have and that's what I'm going by and I'm so glad that you called in so that we can get to all of this. Again with Shawn Are you still with Shawn?
People are generally "so glad" when truth is revealed or something is "cleared up"; yet Billie Dunn has continued being deceptive, actually making things more 'cloudy' and confusing.
BJD: Yes. I have no reason not to be. He stood right beside me and he's been the one constant. He's been there with me, day in and day out comforting me every time I cry every time I'm upset Shawn is the one there.
Host: Okay he failed two or three lie detector tests was it
BJD: He failed one, and so did I and so did my brother.
This is the example set out for us on how it is that when one feels guilt, one feels that if the guilt is shared, it is lessened. "Everyone was doing it" says the school child caught.
"He failed one" is true. He also failed another, which is also true. Whether he failed two or three, he still did, in deed, fail "one" as she said.
Host: That doesn't cause you to go wait a minute he failed.
BJD: Of course it did. After I failed?
Please note that Billie Jean Dunn makes herself the reference point for truth and confidence in a polygraph.
Please note that Billie Dunn just told them she lied to police who wanted to speak to Shawn about her missing daughter.
Want to learn how to discern or catch a liar? Watch carefully:
And then I went home and told my brother and my brother said you know what I did too, they told me not to tell you that. And I knew something was wrong. When I talked to my lawyer and he says let me guess who did the polygraph. And of course he got it right and he said those people are a joke. He called up a man I forgot his name. He said this guy was basically wrote the book on how to give a polygraph correctly. That man got on the phone. He also knew the names of the guys who gave us the polygraph and he said what a complete joke they were, he also didn't understand why they were still allowed to give polygraphs.
Follow the language.
Note "says" is present tense, reducing commitment to this statement.
A defense lawyer denigrated those who administered the polygraph and did so by using a polygraph expert as his means.
Really? is this true?
1. Who did the polygraph
2. Those people are a joke
Then, he called "up" someone. Who?
"a" man. "I forgot his name" (not, "I forget his name" present tense.
"this guy", with "this" being close and the word "man" is now a "guy"
"that" man got on the phone.
The change of language is without justification in context.
This and That: When spoken of, there would be distance: "that" but when he was actually on the phone, he would be close up, "this", yet...
Bilie Dunn reverses it.
The change of language, the verb tense and the use of "this" and "that" conclude:
Billie Jean Dunn's response: 'they are all jokes and he doesn't know why they are allowed to give polygraphs' instead of "I told the truth."
She cannot bring herself to say, "The polygraph is wrong because I told the truth." This is the easiest and most common thing for an innocent person to say, yet a liar, feeling the internal stress of lying, cannot say it. She can ridicule the test, ridicule and demonize the administrator, but she cannot say "I told the truth. "
We are not permitted to say it for her.
There were questions like do you, did you do anything to cause Hailey's disappearance. Yes of course, I left her at home that day by herself. They asked Shawn and my brother could Hailey be in Scurry County. Hailey could be anywhere. Just very terrible questions – like a set up
She blames the questions instead of saying "The polygraph is wrong. I know it is wrong because I told the truth."
How is it that the host did not pick up on this?
Host: so you felt you were set up to fail. Basically, is what you're saying.
Why would the police want to "set up" someone to fail a polygraph? The results are not to be used in court unless both stipulate, so what motive would they have to "set her up" in a polygraph?
How is it that the host did not see the folly of such an assertion? There is no training for something like this.
Where is the word "truth" in all of this?
BJD: Oh yeah. So if they never wanted to look,the easiest thing to do was to pin it on to the boyfriend.
The disparagement of the police is now laziness. They "never" wanted to look, so instead of the walking and looking, it would be easier to blame "the" boyfriend (not "my" boyfriend). Police, she said, accused her in the jail cell. It was not just "the" boyfriend, but both of them.
Host: According to the information that we have. It's understandable that they would look at the boyfriend and you that when a child goes missing- they search from the inside out. First they start the people closest to them and then move out. I'm gonna get back to Shawn in just a moment. I have a question.. What is the biggest misconception about you that you would like cleared up?
listen to the words that Billie Dunn frames as acceptable for her speech. Note what her brain tells her tongue to say:
BJD: um about me, there's so many about the whole situation.. that I could've ever hurt my daughter. There are people that actually think I did something although I was at work and I'm the one that reported her missing. There are people who think Shawn did something which he did not. There's not a way in the world that he could ever hurt Hailey, or hurt me in that way. That's the biggest misconception. Or the people who think that law enforcement do not lie because that is the way I thought too.
What is the very first thing that Billie Dunn told Nancy Grace about Hailey going missing?
"She went missing while I was at work" establishing her alibi. It was her priority then and it is now at the interview, which is precisely why it is repeated. Repetition means sensitivity.
Host: According to this affidavit Shawn has said many things to them. I'd like to go over with you. Shawn according to the affidavit – Hailey was promiscuous and kind of said some really awful things about her. Did he say those things?
Yes or no question. Because Billie Dunn admitted lying to police, why should she fear lying to the host? This is the perfect opportunity to follow up her answer...watch:
BJD: No. He said that as I did, that Hailey was boy crazy. She was not having sex. He knows that. She was not promiscuous. So I know that, I know he didn't say that.
Host: So the police are lying in the affidavit then.
BJD: Yeah they lied a lot of in that I think
She has accused police of lying. Yet, the terms are not far apart:
Police said that Shawn said she was promiscuous.
She claims that he said she is only "boy crazy."
This is the perfect place to say:
"Billie Jean, you have admitted lying to police and now claim that police have set you up to fail on the polygraph, and are now lying on the affidavit. If the one who signed the affidavit is caught, his or her job will be lost and may be prosecuted. Please tell us, Why should we believe you when you say..." (and specify)
She will not be able to say "Because I told the truth."
This is a basic in Analytical Investigation and it flows from the principle from SCAN (www.lsiscan.com)
"No one can lie twice"
That is, if someone is lying, they will not say, about the lie, "I told the truth" when asked why he should be believed. Liars will say many things, some even coming close:
"Because I don't lie" (using the word "lie" along with present tense verb)
"Because I wouldn't lie to you"
"Because I have no reason to lie"
"Because the facts say so..." and on and on, but the subject who has lied will not look back on his (or her) lie and say, "I told you the truth."
Yet, the honest person will say, "I didn't cause Hailey's disappearance. I failed the polygraph, but I don't understand because I told the truth. You should believe me because I told the truth", using the pronoun, "I", the past tense verb, "told" and the word "truth" easily.
Billie Dunn could have said, in the beginning of the show, "I didn't cause Hailey's disappearance" easily and have no need to explain away a failed polygraph. "I don't know. I told the truth." Instead, she was unable to say these simple words, yet the Interviewer does not appear to grasp this 101 principle of analysis.
She does not say, "I just want to find Hailey" instead, using words that show the distance between her and the police;
the distance between her and Hailey;
the distance between her and the truth.
She cannot say "I told the truth."
Host: Basically, this is what the public has to go on. So these are where the misconceptions are happening. Okay, this is why it's good for you to come on and just answer flat out. Now in the affidavit Shawn said that he was fired the day that Hailey went missing but according to his supervisor, that's not true that he just walked out. He got to work at 6 AM according to the supervisor. Shawn was a very good worker. They all liked him. Shawn went to work the day that Hailey went missing at 6 AM went to the break room, got a Dr Pepper, and then left at 610. According to the affidavit cell phone pings do not show him going straight to his mother house like he said. Your comments. Please.
What is the purpose of picking out small lies and inconsistencies? It would appear the purpose of the interview was not to gain information, but to grant a platform. Note the number of words from the Interviewer and the number of words from the subject. If the best interview is 90% subject, and only 10% Interviewer, what do you say of this interview?
Yet, we listen for the wording in the answer, and pay attention to chronology. We remember in sequence the events that happen which is why story-tellers and liars struggle:
BJD: He went to his grandma's house. He quit his job. He did not tell me about that because we'd had problems about his job situation in the past. He certainly didn't tell me he was gonna try to get another job before he told me umm.. But he did quit. The thing with the cell phone pings he did not go to my house. He drove through Ccity to get to his mother's, which he would've had to.
1. He went to his grandmother's house.
2. he quit his job.
Note the order. Going to his grandmother's home is a priority.
What he did not do is important, as it is reported in the negative, yet, she still feels the need to explain why he did not do something; making this very sensitive to her:
The time between going to his job and thereafter, his sensitive to Billie Dunn. The cell phone pings may prove crucial in the trial.
Host: So again I'm a little confused
BJD: ..and the timeline was, with it also. He had enough time to get from work, stop his grandma', knock, they weren't up and then go to his mom's house.
Here is an indicator that she is not working from experiential memory, but from her "time line" previously worked on. Not only does she refer to it as a "time line" but she has worked it out so that she can justify the time he spent: "he had enough time..."
This is why the cell phone pings and communication link them both together.
This is the time period in which Hailey's remains were disposed of; perhaps in several locations, just like "killing a deer."
Host: I may have just lost track of what you were saying. He did quit but he didn't want to tell you right. So why did he tell law enforcement that he was fired?
The script got lost.
When people do not speak from memory, they lose little details. Now compare this with her complaint that when she lied to police, she was upset enough to say not only that she could not leave her room to talk to Shawn, but he was not allowed to go into her room to "check on" her when she was with the police woman.
BJD: I don't know. I don't even know that he did.
Host: So you feel that that is something else that they could be lying about, right?
The host shows suspicion. This is actually an opportunity for Dunn and Adkins to clean up their script.
BJD: Maybe I don't know.
Interesting that she does not want to refute the host, but is still willing to lie for him, to the very officials charged with finding Hailey.
If you can recall lying in life, you likely recall how scary it was. Did you lie to a school teacher? That was even more scary since the school teacher is a figure of authority.
Can you imagine having the nerve, the steady nerve it takes to lie to a police officer?
Host: According to Shawn's boss he just walked out like he didn't quit or anything is that we told you he did?
BJD: umm.. I can't remember exactly if he told somebody or he just walked out. I don't know.
Note "exactly" means that she can remember, but remembering is sensitive to her.
Host: Let me tell you why that's important. Normally it would mean nothing but it was the day Hailey went missing so these type of details you know can clog up an investigation and just make it stop unless you can find out exactly what happened and if somebody isn't telling the truth then it messes everything up.
Would the mother of a missing 13 year old really need to be told on a radio show why it is important?
Host: The FBI does not need to obtain search warrants…
BJD: carrie the FBI did tell me, probably two or three weeks ago that they had not much if anything at all to do with Colorado city law enforcement. They've never agreed with certain things, so it wasn't exactly them. It wasn't FBI that had anything to do with it.
The additional word "did" instead of "The FBI told me..." indicates the fact that the FBI agents were not telling her things, so when she finally got something from one of them, she has the need to highlight it.
Carrie: why doesn't local law-enforcement use FBI for what they're there for. Where they don't have to give an affidavit. Hey we need a search warrants. There were 50 of them served on Amber's case that nobody knew anything about because with the FBI. They don't have to prove anything. I forget what it's called and they get all the information they need, phone records and everything else they don't have to follow all the same rules that law enforcement have to follow.
BJD: probably because they didn't agree on everything. Colorado city wasn't trying to cooperate with FBI. I know that other towns came in, chief of police, I'm not supposed to know about this so I won't say who, offered their help, also, and Colorado city, early in the beginning said no we have it under control. They've turned down help from Equisearch. You guys. I was able to call you and ask you to come in. You could just do that. You didn't need law enforcement approval. Thank God or they would've told you no. They did tell Klass kids though, But they came anyway. Equisearch needed law enforcement's approval which we could not get so they were never able to come in.
Here she disparages CC police "wasn't trying to cooperate..."
Note "they've turned down help from Equisearch" and not "they turned down..." This is something that could have easily been verified with a simple call to Equisearch. Tim Miller does not work with anyone lying, or not cooperating with police, as is the case here.
Law enforcement does not have the authority to tell 'you guys no' to speaking.
Texas Equisearch chose not to, especially after the Cindy Anthony disaster. Equisearch is not going to spend the funding to bring in resources where there is indication that the suspects know precisely where the remains may be found, unless law enforcement requests them to. But to tell Tim Miller that the police have rigged the polygraph and are playing games and are too lazy to search is not something that is going to bring action.
Carrie: and that is what everyone doesn't understand they ask why doesn't Texas Equisearch come in. Most most agencies like us don't come in unless we work with law enforcement
Host: The last thing they want to do is have the search party come in without the backing of law enforcement. It's impossible. It would just make everything so much worse. We are talking with Billie Dunn, the mother of missing teenager Hailey Dunn and we have Amber Dubois' mother Carrie on as well. We have lots of questions coming in. I'm kind of hopping all over the place here I just want to make sure that were clear on this. Billie you said you have talked to the FBI recently. When was that?
BJD: maybe three weeks ago.
Host: and what did you talk with them about?
BJD: I called to clear things up. Rumors I had heard. That's why I called and then we talked a little bit about the case. Cleared up some rumors from <interrupted>
Host: What did they say were they responsive
BJD: I wanted to know why, I wanted to know why they were following a psychics tips going out to the airport digging around what was the deal with that. What was it really that led them out there. The FBI really doesn't have much of a clue what Colorado city's doing and that's basically what they told me. I told them I I needed somebody that I could talk to and they said exactly I did and They just wanted to make it very clear that umm.. It's not them who rake this over the coals and I know that.
Note "digging around" and
"the deal" while speaking about her daughter's remains.
Note "the FBI 'really' doesn't have 'much' of a clue...." as if she knows what FBI agents know and what they do not know.
Billie Jean Dunn and the FBI do not speak; they "told" one another; that is, one-way information. They do not share information with her, and she does not have her "own" FBI "guy."
She "told" them she needed someone to "talk to" and they said "exactly" but not that she could talk to them.
Law enforcement agencies are not in the business of sharing details of a murder with those they believe are involved.
Host: Okay, okay, got it.
BJD: I also wanted to kind of find out what was the deal with Hailey and Mexico which I was told Naomi completely lied about that. They never thought she was in Mexico Naomi said that they found her in Mexico but couldn't just run in and get her. But I knew that was a lie, but I wanted to ask more about that, Anyway.
She does not say that she wanted to find out if Hailey was in Mexico, only that she "kind of find out" what was "the deal";
indications of language that show she does not have concern that Hailey was in Mexico.
She wants the audience to believe that her husband's girlfriend said that Hailey was found but that they just didn't have the time or resources to pick her up. She "knew" that was a lie. Did she think this would make her seem like a lie detector?
Host: So Naomi is your ex husband and Hailey's father's girl friend. And you heard that she claimed that Hailey had been found in Mexico and you wanted to call and make sure if that wasn't or was true right
Host: Okay okay Were kind of just going through slowly but surely so that we can get all of this cleared up. Hang tight for just a minute, I want to get back to the affidavit. Okay according to the affidavits while Shawn was being interviewed. He showed them his phone that had information on it. They gave it back to him. They asked to see it again before he handed it to them, He deleted the information they wanted to see. According to the affidavit. Have you heard about that at all?
BJD: yeah and that's completely ridiculous. They said show me where you called Billie so he pulled it up and showed it to em,and then I guess a couple minutes later,he said you know what show me that again. Shawn looked for it and couldn't find it, but all it was, was a phone call made to the hospital.
Note: she does not say it was not true, only "completely" "ridiculous"
How does she know that this is a lie?
Since she was just confronted with Shawn's changing work story, how is it that this is not only ridiculous, but "completely" ridiculous.
Host: Okay, got it. What about this video on YouTube? Didn't you find that disturbing?
BJD: umm.. I think I just think they're crazy young immature boys trying to get a rise out of people who did it.
Host: It certainly did get a rise out of people. But Billie do you see as we go through everything why people and I'm not trying to pile on here. I'm just trying to get you to see the perception out here. He threatened to kill you. People said he's threatened Hailey and Hailey was afraid of him. You said, no he's not. You lie to prevent the police from seeing him – you were arrested. He claims that he was fired and his boss says no he just walked out. Supposedly cell phone pings didn't have him where he was. Then we add…
BJD: <interrupting> yeah, they did. The cell phone pings.. No the cell phone pings had him going to his mom's house,
Host: Okay, so you're saying the cell phone the perception of the cell phone pings having him somewhere differently. That is not correct according to you.
BJD: no, it did not put him, they did not put him somewhere that he wasn't supposed to be, they showed him exactly where he was.
Host: Got it got it. Understood. Let's talk about what was found on the computer I was reading what was found. And honestly, if someone looked at my computer, I'd be mortified the stuff that's on there. Just because of what I do with web sleuths. I have a bunch of serial killer stuff, true crime stuff, morbid things all of that. A lot of people do, but apparently there was something on here that law enforcement really felt there was very disturbing pornography on the computer. I have been told or we have been told what are your comments on that?
BJD: I've been told the same thing. And I just don't know if I believe it. But even if it was it's not Shawn's computer. There were so many people that had access to it. But no, I don't see him ,his mom, his little brother, his stepfather looking at anything like that. His stepbrothers I don't know them at all, I just.. I don't even know if I believe that anything was on there.
She allows for child pornography, but seeks to blame others.
Host: Okay So you don't think that there was any child porn on there?
BJD:I know there wasn't child porn on there somebody would be arrested, and if there was child porn on there, It's a damn shame nobody was arrested.
She can "know" because no one was arrested.
Host: I agree. If there was child porn on there somebody should've been arrested because that's ridiculous.
She joins in BJD's ridicule. We learned that it was in several counties and several people who had access, making prosecution difficult. Is this "ridiculous"?
Host:<inviting questions from the chatroom but chatroom monitor claimed there were no questions being asked that Billie had not yet answered.>
Host: Billie, here's the reality of tonight's interview so far the police have lied about everything they've lied about everything in the affidavit, again the perception, and even though Shawn has threatened to kill you and you have a restraining order against him: . He's a great guy.
Host:Do you see now how people just looking in would go..
BJD: no, I did in the beginning, now. I don't understand it at all. In the beginning yeah.
It is a large conspiracy involving local police, state police and federal police against her and Shawn.
Host: What do you mean in the beginning? I'm confused
BJD: when Before people knew anything, before people only had to go on what the police was putting out there but now so much more has come out and it's pointing to many other areas… It's
Host: Let's talk about that. That's great. Let's get away from Shawn let's talk about what is the evidence out there pointing in other directions. The floor is yours. Billie, this is good
BJD: the simple fact is nothing happened to Hailey inside my house. For a fact Somebody took her out of the house or snatched her off the Street. Cadaver dogs have been in my house, not just Linda's also law enforcement they been in and around my house. My car's been looked at. Nothing happened to Hailey inside that house umm.. I can't get over the fact that a sex offender who has more rapes and kidnaps than I have teeth in my mouth is not being looked at, Because he's a good guy. He's lived near within 20 miles of three missing teenagers. That's a hell of a coincidence but he's not being looked at cuz he's a good guy.
1. "Nothing happened to Hailey inside my house." We need to explore "nothing."
2. "Somebody took her out of the house or..." Now, we have an "either/or" allowance and that the "Somebody" may have taken her out of the house.
Please note that "nothing" happened inside "my house" but
Somebody took her out of "the" house. We have the change from "my" to "the"
Now the third:
3. "Nothing happened to Hailey inside "that" house"
"My house" to "the house" to "that house" shows consistent distancing language.
The first had possessive pronoun; the second only used the article, "the" but the third employed the distancing language of "that" house.
Nancy Grace said that, "Sadly", Hailey Dunn didn't make it out of the house alive.
To this, I agree, and the language progression confirms.
Host: Backup what you mean not being looked at because he's a good guy. How do you come to that conclusion who told you that?
BJD: the Colorado city police said that this man is a good guy. A hard-working…
Carrie: actually, it was the sheriff and the DA investigator who said to me only got them all wrong. He's a good guy and you said would you have him watch your kids and they said well absolutely not. But he's a good guy.
Host: But what was his offense what put them on the sex offender list.
BJD: many rapes
Carrie: there's multiple offenses.
BJD: There's also at least one kidnapping but there's, I mean, multiple rapes since he was about 17. AndI guess he's I don't know now nearing 50.
<Host: and Carrie - Discussion of a sex offender in Colorado city out of Klackamas, Oregon, who was also living in the region of Hailey's disappearance. He's now in Texas.>
Host: Billie tell us more about things that are out there that point to other people
This is an offer to Billie Dunn to build an alibi for Shawn Adkins. Billie Dunn does not miss the opportunity as it is the first thing she goes towards: Shawn.
BJD: well those are the main things the fact that Shawn didn't have much time to do much of anything and umm.. really, I don't see how we could hold it in all by himself to himself, for this long and be living this close with her family.
PLease note the attempt to clear Shawn by the use of time. I believe that Hailey was already dead and the only thing he did that morning was dispose of her, building an alibi by simply going to work and walking out 10 minutes later.
Note the pronouns:
She allows that he didn't have "much" time; that is, he had some.
She allows for "we" to hold it all in "by himself" is the change of pronoun we find indicating deception.
Pronouns are instinctive and do not lie.
The main things are the sex offenders that bother me the because from day one
Note the "main things" (plural) yet she did not start with sex offenders: she began with:
1. Shawn having enough time
2. She and Shawn having the ability to keep it to themselves
As an innocent mother of a missing child, would you defend yourself with the notion of being strong enough to hold it all together?
Her brain knows what he did, and what she did, and what they planned, yet even in deception, her brain allows for these things. She may be actually boasting here.
They asked how I felt about it. And I said I live on I 20 that really bothers me and the chief of police said, "you know that just doesn't happen here." And I just looked at him like he was joking . I said "you got to be kidding me. Yeah it happens everywhere." And unfortunately it's gonna happen again. There was also. It's been a while maybe five or six months ago umm.. A guy had been out raping women in C city. I think he lives in Lorraine they arrested him. They let them out. I'm sure that the girl said he threatened to kill me had a knife to me and I got away. I bet you they didn't question him once about Hailey. I bet you they didn't.
Host: Let me ask you something. There's been a couple of things pop up in chat. Maybe you can clear this up there something about earrings… question about the earings that were found at Clint's tell me about that
BJD: Hailey had put in some red hoop earrings. They are the kind that you do body piercings with. They're bigger than a regular earing. So she put those in to stretch her earlobes. I told her keep them in otherwise they'll go right back to small so she put them in. They Had been in for a few days so when I reported her missing wearing those red hoop earrings. And After Clint moved out of his apartment or when he was moving out, packing up. David was over there helping him. He found Hailey's red earing on the floor and brought it home to me. And I called the police. So one of the earrings was found.
Host: So does that mean that she was at Clint's what does that mean ?
BJD: I think.. I think she went by there even if she wasn't there for long. I think she went by there. They were in there. Maybe she took them off Sunday night. She did spend the night there.
Host: You can't tell when they were there. That's the thing, so.. Somebody's asking me about an Xbox video is that anything but I don't know what that means. Do you know what that means?
BJD: yeah, Hailey's Yep, Hailey was playing her brothers Xbox I guess that was Sunday night, was playing on the X box. It takes pictures of you just randomly I guess I heard. I was told that in that video it looks like she's wearing the red hoop earrings
Host: So that night it looks like she's wearing the earrings that were found at Clint's house
BJD: right only one of them was found. I never got to see the video. I was told by Billie Sykes Hailey look so happy jumping around. Would you like to see that. Hould like see those pictures. I said I would love to see those pictures and he said I'll get them to you. I've never seen them.
<Another few minutes if discussion of registered sex offender was in Oregon committed crimes in Oregon and was in the area of the bombs this. At times she went missing and was currently in Colorado city around the time Hailey Dunn is missing. Police will notextradite him to Clackamas County>
BJD: I bet they say he's a good guy too. It would be just like them.
Host: Okay. Is there anyone else that you can think of that LE is not looking at?
BJD: Oh yeah! There's some names that I don't want to say but we had chief Dewley. He was fired from, I think Taylor county because he had his girlfriend naked, chained up in the closet.
BJD: oh yeah! And that's a fact! Talk about weirdos. There, There's this, there's this, umm.. They've, people on the police force who had homosexual relationships with my neighbor and my neighbor not getting along with me. And My neighbor being a pedophile dating my son's friend's sister. She was actually living there with him playing basketball with MY daughter, which I never approved of. I mean. And he's weird, anyways, having girls and guys spend the night with him at the same time. in my opinion. and other people telling me this guy is a window peeper. I've always been leery of him also. That guy was also at work a couple of days before Hailey went missing talking about killing himself and acting strange. And he's never been looked at either. He is like I said in sexual relationships with some of the city workers in Colorado city. Some have actually been fired because they were actually caught in public, having sex.
Host: Wow That sounds like Colorado city is one crazy wild place.
BJD: <Shouting> There's proof.. No! The police officers that can't make it in other towns they go to Colorado city!
Host: That's scary.
BJD: we've never had officers longer than a year, I mean they're in and out
Host: Let's talk about Hailey because with all of this stuff going on Hailey, and this can happen in every missing child case where there's a lot of media, the child themselves kind of get lost in it all. Billie Dunn tell us about your daughter, Hailey.
BJD: Hailey is the most beautiful girl in the world. She's very smart, very loud and outgoing umm.. Funny. She's got a great sense of humor umm.. Likes all different kinds of music. She's very fun to be around, she's also stubborn and hardheaded but but always fun to be around, she's very much. She's so much like me. She's very strong-willed and a great sense of humor.
Host: was Clint involved in her life a lot were they close?
BJD: yes they were they were particularly close, After Clint and I separated. I think Hailey was 10 years old. Clint took it pretty hard and Hailey needed to be there for her dad and she did and she was there with him a lot she started going spending the night with hima lot. She was around him a lot, she was scared of what he might do to himself and they got a lot closer after he moved out. She had always been pretty much a mama's girl until then and then she just she got really close to her Dad.
Host: What do you mean by what he would do to himself
BJD: I don't really like getting into this, he was very depressed.
Host: She was just worried about her dad is what you are saying.
BJD: yeah yeah
Host: Do you think in your opinion that Clint or anyone in his family, perhaps knows something that they aren't telling? what do you feel about that?
BJD: I don't feel like Clint does. I definitely feel like Naomi's mother has lied so many times and what for? She's.. She has told so many lies you she can't get anything straight and I don't understand why. I know that I know Hailey and Naomi were very jealous of each other umm.. I know that Clint doesn't know where Hailey is
Host: Are you implying that maybe in your opinion Naomi might have more information?
BJD: umm.. I'm, I am not, I'm just not real sure about Naomi. I think I wouldn't be surprised if her mom did, but there, I'm not, I don't know. There's just so many open ends to this.
Host: Naomi is Clint's girlfriend. Clint is Hailey's dad and Connie is Naomi's mother. No, Patricia, Patricia is Naomi's mother. Who is Connie?
BJD: Clint's mom
Host: That is Hailey's grandmother. Why would she lie? Now. She did say that Hailey was very afraid of Shawn did she not?
BJD: She did say that. Connie has never liked Shawn. Clint and Shawn fought. But if Hailey was scared of Shawn, She would have definitely told me and she would've definitely told her dad and her uncle. Most definitely.
Host: you don't think there's a possibility that she'd maybe she didn't because she was too scared. She just didn't know what would happen or you don't think thats a possibility?
BJD: that's just not Hailey.No
Carrie: I talked to Clint a lot and asked him whether he thought Shawn was a threat to Hailey and he said no he didn't think that was an issue or anything else that Hailey would have told him things. If, but, you know, if it's going this long family split up. There was this time when I quit talking with my mother and I couldn't stand my mother because it hurt so much when you don't have answers that you just are grasping at straws but Clint said "I don't think Billie or Shawn had anything to do with that, I can't bring myself to think that." But I'm sure in time it's changed. Naomi and Clint both said had lie detectors and they passed them but I don't think that.. I don't know, that Patricia, Naomi's mother, ever took one and she doesn't.. She does lie and that things that come out all over the place are a lot of her lies.
Host: are you talking about Clint's mom or Naomi's mom.
Host: I still don't understand why Connie, Clint's mother would lie about that. It's Because you're saying that she didn't like Shawn?
BJD: she doesn't like Shawn and also I know she wants somebody to blame -which we all do. But She has said Billie's a great mother Billie and Shawn never did anything, and then she went to oh Shawn did something and Billie knows it and then back to Billie and Shawn didn't do anything. The police need to look elsewhere and then back to they did something or we know something. So she's not made up her mind yet.
Carrie: that's what happens. I think this happens with every case when you're grasping for some kind of answer. You look at everything. I know at one point my own mother thought that I had something to do with Amber's disappearance. My own mother. It's what happens when you're so desperate for answer and to you grasp at anything you can people go back and forth. And it's such that everybody wants to find Hailey so bad that you're mind plays tricks on you after a while. You don't know where to look at so you go back and forth. You know I've gone back and forth that Billie knows something, you know. One day. I'm like okay she doesn't. No, she does, and Billie will tell you I've called her up. "Do you know anything?", And we go back and forth because everyone wants an answer and no one we don't know anything. It's like Ambers case we just don't know what happened to Hailey Dunn
Host: and the frustration just bubbles over and the..
Carrie:and your mind just plays tricks on you .
Host: Billie lets go back to the affidavit. Billie you stated that pretty much everything in there is a lie. This is an affidavit they used to get a search warrant to search the car. In the affidavit they talk about David, witnessing Shawn come in that day come home that day with like this deer in headlights look after he broke in. Was that it? I'm confused. What about that?
With "pretty much everything a lie", why not seek out the motive of police, who will lose their jobs and their freedom if caught lying on a sworn affidavit? What about asking: how is it that law enforcement came upon this information? Did this come from a vacuum? Was it a lie or an exaggeration?
BJD: David, when David came home and knocked Shawn didn't let him in. Shawn said he was in the bedroom watching TV. So David says he knocked and Shawn didn't answer. There's plexiglass in the door and it was broken so David stuck his arm in there and unlocked the door and went in and Shawn came out into the hallway and looked startled. I guess just because David walked in and he wasn't expecting anybody.
Note: Shawn "didn't let him in"; this indicates will.
In her answer, she affirms the affidavit, yet gives the reason why Shawn "looked surprised." What part of this is a lie?
Host: So that in the affidavit is true. That did happen?
Since "pretty much everything" is a lie, why not challenge what about this story is a lie? What is the police motive? This is a good time for follow up questions.
Host: About what time was that do you remember?
BJD: five o'clock
Host: They took the sheets from your bedroom, right
To avoid information, the Interviewer could have asked what police took from the home, instead of introducing "sheets" and "bedroom."
Host: I thought they took the sheets. They took Hailey sheets.
This is more information being given. BJD may know all of these things, but it is her perspective on these things, that an experienced interviewer seeks.
BJD: Her bottom sheet only
Host: Did you hear anything. Did they find anything?
BJD: They didn't
Host: There's two stories about where Shawn was, When David came home I've heard that he was watching TV like you said in the bedroom. But then I've also read that he was in the bathroom but you were saying he was in the bedroom. Correct?
Host: the big question a lot of people ask this question Billie and I don't want you to think I'm being mean I'm not trying to be mean but I think it's it is a fair question. What have you done lately to find Hailey?
BJD: lately I just wanna talk to FBI.
The subject avoids the question of what she has done lately, but answers what she wants to do. She wants to talk to the FBI, indicating that she has not. The FBI was not giving her information because they suspect her.
The accusation was that she was not searching, which came from Clint. Clint said she was home watching her favorite soap opera, sitting on the couch, calm, with David not mobilizing help, either. This angered the public.
The subject avoided the answer of what she was doing lately but the Interviewer allowed the question to go unanswered.
Billie Jean Dunn changed the topic to the FBI and the Interviewer went for it.
Host: Why is that?
The Interviewer allowed BJD to control the interview.
BJD: And you know what I've done probably the most for Hailey, I've got her on TV. Me and my friends made the first flyers and passed them out, I reported her missing. I got KlaasKids in. I got team Amber and Laura recovery center and human trafficking 911. We got Hope for Hailey started. Its endless and I'm not the only one. Many people I've done many things for Hailey that aren't getting credit for
Note "probably" weakens the assertion. This is a sore spot for Dunn.
Note the emphasis upon herself and note the order:
1. done the most
2. Got her on TV
3. Me and my friends made flyers
4. I reported her missing
Reporting her missing is listed fourth. Why would this be considered something to be note worthy to her?
5. Klaas kids
6. "I" got Team Amber
7. Change to "We" got Hope for Hailey
Host: Let's list them I would love to hear them. Can you do that for us right now
BJD: Courtney Deteris (sp?) has gone above and beyond being a great friend starting the website for Hailey, having a website where kids can report straight to the police station the police didn't like that idea at first. She's done so much she paid for the website. When I offered to she did it. Holly Jenkins has been looking for Hailey since day one and has spent thousands upon thousands of dollars on gas looking looking for my daughter. She has waded in nasty creek water up to her waist 30° weather. There so many people.
Host: Why did you move people want to know why did you move?
BJD: this was planned many years ago. Clint even knows this. That I would moving as soon as David graduated I was getting out of there and returning to South Texas
A signal of a habitual liar is the constant need for affirmation or "proof." Because she lies so often, when she says something truthful, she calls upon some form of "proof"; it is indicative of habitual lying. Here she calls upon Clint. She does not say "Clint knew about it" (past tense) but instead gives emphasis (something a liar needs) with "Clint even knows..."
Host: How is David? how is he doing?
BJD: he's doing. He seems to be doing. He's very well considering the situation.
Uncharacteristically short answer. This should have caught the attention of the Interviewer and caused follow up questions.
Host: it is probably very stressful. Billie. I know you've been very good and staying on this long with us were gonna wrap it up here shortly. What would you say to the kidnappers because there could be somebody listening tonight and who could listen to the show later if they come on and listen to the pre-recorded show after it done. They could be listening. They could've taken Hailey what would you like to say to them?
Note the Interviewer's need to praise the subject causing an emotional entanglement that can interfere with questioning. This is why training is so important. It is easy to get caught up with empathy and lose objectivity in an interview, even over a short period of time. Training in Analytical Interviewing is intense, with principles, video taping, mock interviews, and more principles. It is intense.
BJD: That is my daughter. I chose to have her for me. I wanted a daughter. I had a daughter. God gave her to me. She's mine. She's not.. She wasn't born to be somebody's plaything or whatever. She was born to be my daughter. I want my daughter back more than anything I want her back. If I have to have her back then nobody be punished so be it. I just want her back. I can't live without my daughter.
This is another indication of the sociopathic narcissism similar to recognizing that God "chose" her to have Hailey. Note the pronoun "I" as extreme.
Was this form of narcissism not noted? This, coupled with the admission of lying, the use of drugs, the acceptance of domestic violence, the heartlessness of pornography...was it not recognized during the interview? Did this answer not shock?
Note the language likely gives insight to Hailey's last night:
"somebody's plaything" is a sexual reference. This is what Hailey's grandmother believed happened and what many agree to: Billie Dunn found Shawn Adkins using Hailey, sexually as "a plaything" (Billie Dunn's word)
Note the acceptance that "nobody be punished" is something that is transparent. No call for justice?
No fear for other children out there? This is a strong indication, from a narcissist, that she is involved and wants no punishment for herself and Shawn Adkins.
This is where the brain 'leaks' out the truth.
The mouth speaks trying to keep in the information but it flows.
Host: What would you like us to do web sleuths, Web sleuths members, what would you like us to do to help find Hailey
BJD: not forget my daughter and not give up hope on her. She can come home and we can make her better through therapy whatever she needs. She can come home and be okay
"forget" before "hope"; "hope" denies the death.
The word "can" is repeated three times here, making it sensitive. "She can come home" is repeated, making the ability to come home a sensitive topic. It is sensitive because Hailey can't come home if she is dead.
Note that Hailey needs to be made "better"; this, even under the guise of "therapy" is another subtle disparagement of the victim. Hailey has been blamed by the mother for not calling, for going without permission, for being "boy crazy", having "hormones" and later BJD said that they should be arguing because Hailey would have wanted to buy "everything" and BJD would have to buy her a "new car."
Host: There's a name that keeps popping up here and I'm not familiar with it. Forgive me if it's not appropriate - Brian Glasco who is that?
BJD: that is Clint's half brother, who threatened mine and Hailey's lives and Clint brought that up to the police in the beginning and I don't think the police have ever contacted him. That's why his name comes up.
Note disparagement of law enforcement. Since she and the hosts agree that a 3 agency conspiracy exists against Billie and Shawn, why would the police bother to talk to Brian Glasco?
Analytical Interviewing has the subject doing most of the talking. Note that is not what is happening:
Host: Billie I want you to know that web sleuths members, We won't forget Hailey we never have. We have a very active forum that's active every day about Hailey and if there are any searches organized you can let us know and we will be there to help her,help you search for Hailey, I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that this has helped clear up some misconceptions people are still bothered by the fact that Shawn threatened to kill you. That will always bother people because it sounds abusive and I'm worried personally that maybe you're.. Ie threatened to kill you and that worries me. That when you say he's a great guy that scares me to be honest, so I want you to know that that were here for you if you want to talk again we would be happy to. Carrie, what would you like to say?
pandering to a killer? Is there no discernment? The entire interview has gone without even denying the accusations against her.
Note that the host says that Shawn threatening to kill Billie Dunn only "sounds" threatening. BJD, herself, took it more seriously than the host, by calling police. When police confronted Adkins, he admitted threatening her, and added that he threatened Hailey and Clint Dunn as well.
Host: This is been very informative and helpful to me personally. Billie one thing you can do is be seen and heard more often.
note "personally" ; this should have nothing "personal"; it is about gathering information.
BJD:. I do know I do know there are so many people who do want to help and there's so many people who have their minds made up and there said that they don't care what kind of evidence is produced. They're not gonna change their minds and I just don't want to put me and Shawn right in the spotlight again. I want it on Hailey. I want it on Hailey we have all tried very hard to get Hailey in the spotlight
Like Scott Peterson and others who sought to control the spotlight, the subject expresses her desire to get out of the spotlight of suspicion, in the name of the child. This is a good example of leakage of information. By telling us that there are those who are "not" going to change their minds, in the negative, the subject is telling us why she gave this interview.
Host: The best way to get Hailey in the spotlight is to get you in the spotlight. The most dangerous place to be in the world was between Mark Klass and a TV camera because he was always there. The only way Polly could be heard was through Mark's voice. You've got to be Hailey's voice and so..
BJD: right. And when I did that daily what did everybody say, that I just want to be on TV looking cute, you can't win.
Host: You got to ignore those people
BJD: yes I want my daughter remembered. I want everybody to be looking for her. I want everybody to know all about Hailey everywhere
Note that she wants "everybody" to be doing what BJD herself did not do: look for her. Note that she wants everyone looking for her, but she does not say she wants Hailey found.
Host: Ignore the trolls that say that. To hell with them forget about them. You be Hailey's voice and let us help you
An interviewer should remain as neutral as possible in order to gain information. Even when interviewing child killers, child molesters and those who cause repugnancy, the professional must not show either favor nor disdain, and must seek to avoid introducing words, teach the subject how to lie, or reveal information, even that which the public might be thinking. The Interviewer does not want to influence the answers of the subject in any way. The Interviewer does not offer advice, but could have taken the "trolls" and challenged the subject to answer for herself. Yet it is that the subject was unable to bring herself to say the simple words of denial, nor affirm that she spoke the truth. The subject literally leaked out that she wants no punishment for those responsible, and chose sexual language in her 'speech' to the guilty party. None of these things appear to be caught by the interviewer.
"web sleuths" has to do with "sleuthing", yet condemnation for those who see the narcissistic sociopathic killer. "Sleuthing" is the ability to listen, follow facts and clues, for the purpose of truth. This interview may be the richest one given, since the first appearance on Nancy Grace, yet none of the linguistic clues appear to be even recognized. This is an example of how not to conduct an interview and is useful for Analytical Interviewing instruction, just as the subject's own words are useful in teaching deception detection and leakage.
The "trolls" who can go to "hell" are those who recognize deception when they hear it and have given their opinion.
Here is a host speaking for an entire online group. Does this condemnation include those members who believe:
the polygraph results;
and see drugs, violence, perversity and lies?
BJD: right. I feel the same. I am